{"videoId":"https://video.isilive.ca/victoria/New%20Encoder_COTW_2026-05-21-12-03.mp4","source":"isilive_vtt","segments":[{"t":2,"text":"And welcome to the Thursday, May 21st Committee of the"},{"t":6,"text":"Whole Meeting of Victoria City Council. This morning we have"},{"t":10,"text":"for our consideration two land use matters, two staff reports"},{"t":14,"text":"and two council member motions. But of course before we"},{"t":18,"text":"begin, we always take a moment to reflect on the"},{"t":22,"text":"remarkable opportunities that we have here to make these decisions"},{"t":25,"text":"and have these discussions and conversations and debates. Do primarily"},{"t":30,"text":"to the remarkable stewardship over so many generations of the"},{"t":33,"text":"two nations on whose territories are city sits in its"},{"t":36,"text":"entirety, the La Quangqin people of the Songhees Nation and"},{"t":40,"text":"the Coase Absorb Nation. They have, as I say, for"},{"t":44,"text":"so many generations centuries taken care to preserve and nurture"},{"t":50,"text":"and care for the land and the waters that surround"},{"t":52,"text":"Vancouver Island, and in particular here locally in greater Victoria."},{"t":57,"text":"And the City of Victory itself has occupied some remarkable"},{"t":61,"text":"lands for the last 160 plus years. I had the"},{"t":65,"text":"opportunity yesterday to meet with a group of visiting ambassadors"},{"t":69,"text":"from Europe, from the EU. And as part of their"},{"t":73,"text":"welcome, they learned a great deal from one of the"},{"t":76,"text":"local elders about the indigenous lands that are here. And"},{"t":80,"text":"what struck me about that was how remarkable they found"},{"t":83,"text":"it, that in all of their important work, their host"},{"t":87,"text":"agency took the time to provide about 25 minutes at"},{"t":92,"text":"the opening of a very compressed day to allow this"},{"t":95,"text":"storyteller to tell some important stories about the lands that"},{"t":98,"text":"these people were visiting. And in observing them, as I"},{"t":101,"text":"had a chance to join them at the same time,"},{"t":104,"text":"they were quite struck by the fact that this was"},{"t":107,"text":"so important and that the city in particular had developed"},{"t":112,"text":"over some years this very rich relationship that we enjoy."},{"t":117,"text":"I mentioned that because I think it is important for"},{"t":119,"text":"us occasionally to reflect on the value of the relationship"},{"t":123,"text":"that we have with the two nations and how extraordinary"},{"t":125,"text":"it is. And in doing so, I urge all of"},{"t":128,"text":"us, as I always do, to take a moment in"},{"t":131,"text":"each day and just think about how extraordinary that is."},{"t":136,"text":"And to observe or hear or taste or do or"},{"t":139,"text":"see something that brings that home to us each individually."},{"t":143,"text":"When we do that, I hope that we think of"},{"t":145,"text":"the small words that we have taken into our own"},{"t":149,"text":"language. And that is to reflect their language to say"},{"t":152,"text":"thank you and to say hi chica - CMNU -"},{"t":154,"text":"Quilia. And in so doing for that instant, give yourself"},{"t":161,"text":"an opportunity to reflect to yourself, but to those around"},{"t":166,"text":"you, how important it is for us to understand and"},{"t":169,"text":"learn and continue to nurture those relationships. Hitch Yamdakulia. I"},{"t":178,"text":"do have not to have any remarks to share today"},{"t":181,"text":"than what we will do during the day, and so"},{"t":183,"text":"we will move on to late items, none of which"},{"t":185,"text":"I'm aware need to be added to today's agenda. And"},{"t":187,"text":"so we have a consent agenda that is proposed. It's"},{"t":190,"text":"only two items. It's item G2, the technical high angle"},{"t":193,"text":"rope Rescue Program. An item H1, the Council Member Motion"},{"t":197,"text":"with regard to the Cumberland BC, miner's Memorial Graveside Vigil."},{"t":200,"text":"I am aware that there is a question actually about"},{"t":203,"text":"G2, the technical high angle rope Rescue Program. And so"},{"t":207,"text":"I'm going to remove that from the consent agenda to"},{"t":210,"text":"provide an opportunity for that question to be asked. When"},{"t":213,"text":"we arrive at that item on the agenda. That would"},{"t":217,"text":"leave only item H1 on the consent agenda. Does anyone"},{"t":220,"text":"wish to either remove that or add anything else. Councillor"},{"t":223,"text":"Cammington. I'd like to add F1 Mayor. F1. I'm going"},{"t":231,"text":"to object to that, having to be able to propose"},{"t":233,"text":"an amendment to that. Sorry, I shouldn't have laughed. That's"},{"t":236,"text":"entirely appropriate for you to suggest that. But we also"},{"t":239,"text":"have a custom, when we ask that if anyone liked"},{"t":242,"text":"to rub anything or add anything, if anyone wishes to"},{"t":244,"text":"object. We always allow the opportunity for discussion. So another"},{"t":249,"text":"thing else then, I'm going to suggest that are considered"},{"t":253,"text":"agenda is compromised only of the one item H1. So"},{"t":255,"text":"I would like to move that, please. Councillor Coleman is"},{"t":257,"text":"moving, Councillor Kim is seconding all those in favor. Anyone"},{"t":261,"text":"opposed. That is unanimous. Thank you very much for that."},{"t":267,"text":"Just a heads up for our fire chief. There will"},{"t":268,"text":"be a question about G2 when we get to that"},{"t":270,"text":"point on the agenda just so the heat is making"},{"t":274,"text":"himself available for that. That does take us on two"},{"t":279,"text":"item F1, and this is in fact the Rezoning application"},{"t":283,"text":"and development permit with variances application for the properties at"},{"t":287,"text":"829 through 899 4th Street and 846 through 856 Broton"},{"t":292,"text":"Street. I believe there is a presentation. Yes, we have"},{"t":295,"text":"a bevy of staff here to help us understand this."},{"t":298,"text":"Take your time to get yourself comfortable. And when you're"},{"t":301,"text":"ready, we'll send it over to you."},{"t":316,"text":"And please do remind us who you are for the"},{"t":318,"text":"record and for the public. Good morning, Mayor Alto"},{"t":328,"text":"and members of council. My name is Rob Bateman, senior"},{"t":331,"text":"planner with Development Services. Today I will be presenting a"},{"t":335,"text":"rezoning and development permit variances application. For 829 to 899"},{"t":340,"text":"4th Street, an 8460 56 Brighton Street. The proposal is"},{"t":345,"text":"to rezone from the CA2 zone, the CHPOB zone. And"},{"t":350,"text":"the CHP CR zone, uh, to a new zone in"},{"t":355,"text":"order to increase the density and allow multi - unit"},{"t":357,"text":"residential uses at this location. The proposal is to construct"},{"t":361,"text":"three mixed use buildings at 2711 and 10 stories with"},{"t":366,"text":"an overall density of 6. 46th one FSR. There is"},{"t":371,"text":"a concurrent development permit with variances. Application as well. Here"},{"t":376,"text":"are the relevant sections of the local government Act. The"},{"t":381,"text":"properties located in the downtown core. You can see the"},{"t":385,"text":"4th Street Corridor on this image. Which includes primarily low"},{"t":389,"text":"- rise buildings. Adjacent properties include pioneer square at the"},{"t":393,"text":"bottom right, which is heritage designated. And 11th Store Mixed"},{"t":397,"text":"- Use building at 825 Fort Street and a nine"},{"t":401,"text":"- story mixed - use building at 838 Broughton Street."},{"t":404,"text":"The subject property is presently used as various stores, offices,"},{"t":408,"text":"and services, along with the pay parking lot. Here are"},{"t":413,"text":"photos of the subject property. These slides show various views"},{"t":416,"text":"from Fort Street. The existing adjacent buildings can also be"},{"t":420,"text":"seen in the bottom right photo. Here, more photos of"},{"t":426,"text":"the subject property. These photos were taken from the other"},{"t":428,"text":"side of the site on Broughton Street. This slide shows"},{"t":437,"text":"adjacent properties. These were all taken from the intersection of"},{"t":441,"text":"Fort and Quadr Streets. The top left photo on this"},{"t":447,"text":"slide is where the Y used to be unbroten Street."},{"t":450,"text":"The pioneer squares at the bottom. The bottom left slide"},{"t":453,"text":"shows some examples of historic facades of heritage buildings, which"},{"t":457,"text":"are typical the Fort Street corridor. I'm first going to"},{"t":463,"text":"speak to the rezoning application in relation to the OCP"},{"t":466,"text":"and the downtown core area plan. And then I'll speak"},{"t":470,"text":"to the development permit with variances application and show you"},{"t":472,"text":"the plans. The site is located in the downtown core"},{"t":476,"text":"where the star is on this image. The proposals generally"},{"t":479,"text":"consistent with the broad objectives of the OCP by providing"},{"t":482,"text":"more housing and commercial space downtown. It includes approximately 329"},{"t":488,"text":"dwelling units, of which 66 percent are seniors rental housing."},{"t":497,"text":"14 Affordable rental units in the seniors residents would be"},{"t":500,"text":"secured for a period of 10 years. At the City's"},{"t":503,"text":"meeting income affordable rental rates. The proposal also meets the"},{"t":508,"text":"minimum number of required. Family housing units. The voluntary public"},{"t":514,"text":"benefits and associate legal agreements have not been determined yet."},{"t":517,"text":"But the applicant is currently proposing to secure public plaza."},{"t":522,"text":"Public art and childcare facility through legal agreements. I'll show"},{"t":525,"text":"you these on the plans in the minute. The proposal"},{"t":529,"text":"does not, however, align with aspects of the downtown core"},{"t":532,"text":"urban structure guidance related to the overall scale of the"},{"t":535,"text":"building and the downtown urban form. The OCPs urban structure"},{"t":543,"text":"concept for the downtown core envisions in urban form with"},{"t":546,"text":"larger scale buildings along Blanchard in Yaat Streets, which then"},{"t":550,"text":"taper off to the edge of the downtown core. To"},{"t":553,"text":"the smaller scale buildings in the surrounding neighbourhoods beyond. Such"},{"t":557,"text":"as the Fairfield neighbourhood at lower right on this map."},{"t":561,"text":"The proposal for a 27 - story building in this"},{"t":563,"text":"location, therefore undermines the overall urban structure concept by proposing"},{"t":568,"text":"a larger scale building in the location that should be"},{"t":571,"text":"providing a transition to the smaller scale buildings adjacent to"},{"t":574,"text":"the downtown core. For comparison, the tallest existing building of"},{"t":580,"text":"the City is currently 25 stories. And that building is"},{"t":583,"text":"the Hudson Development, which is located on Harold Street, between"},{"t":587,"text":"Douglas and Blanchard Streets. The OCP is implemented through the"},{"t":594,"text":"more detailed policies found in the downtown core area plan."},{"t":598,"text":"And other policy documents that were developed in close collaboration"},{"t":601,"text":"with the community. In this case, the downtown core area"},{"t":606,"text":"plan reinforces the urban structure concept of the OCP by"},{"t":610,"text":"locating the tallest buildings. Up to a maximum height of"},{"t":613,"text":"24 stories and a maximum density of 6 to 1"},{"t":617,"text":"FSR. Between Blanchard and Douglas Streets. That is the dark"},{"t":622,"text":"brown colour above and to the left of the subject"},{"t":624,"text":"site on this map. The proposal not only significantly exceeds"},{"t":628,"text":"the envision tights and densities for the site's location. It"},{"t":632,"text":"also exceeds the maximum heightened density envisioned for the largest"},{"t":635,"text":"scale buildings in the downtown overall. The proposed height is"},{"t":640,"text":"222 percent taller than the envisione tight. And 29 percent"},{"t":645,"text":"more dense. It proposes 80 metres in 27 stories, whereas"},{"t":650,"text":"the policy envisions only 36 metres and 12 stories. And"},{"t":654,"text":"it proposes 6. 46 to 1 FSR, whereas the policy"},{"t":657,"text":"envisions only 5 to 1 FSR. With a base of"},{"t":660,"text":"220 FSR. Maintaining the cities intended urban form fosters of"},{"t":667,"text":"predictable investment in development ecosystem. Add certainty to infrastructure investments"},{"t":672,"text":"and helps to manage land speculation. Approving a proposal that"},{"t":676,"text":"is this far ahead of alignment with the heightened scale"},{"t":678,"text":"policy may detract from these goals. It's also worth noting"},{"t":683,"text":"that as part of the recent OCP adoption, council provide"},{"t":686,"text":"the direction to update the downtown core area plan. Proceeding"},{"t":690,"text":"with this application, while that broader planning initiative is underway,"},{"t":694,"text":"could be problematic because it would likely presuppose outcomes for"},{"t":698,"text":"the area. It could also raise confusion for stakeholders in"},{"t":703,"text":"the road trust in the City's Planning processes. Given these"},{"t":706,"text":"policies, policy inconsistencies, the recommendation is to decline the application"},{"t":711,"text":"and no alternative recommendation has been provided to proceed with"},{"t":714,"text":"the application in its current form. If council still chooses"},{"t":718,"text":"to move the application forward, they recommended that the per"},{"t":721,"text":"overall scale be reduced to improve alignment with city policy."},{"t":725,"text":"After which a more detailed review would be completed before"},{"t":728,"text":"the application goes to the advisory design panel and then"},{"t":731,"text":"returns to Committee of the Whole Meathing. And now I"},{"t":735,"text":"will speak to the development permute variances application. Overall, the"},{"t":740,"text":"revised proposal is not considered sufficiently consistent with the development"},{"t":744,"text":"permit area objectives and guidelines. This analysis focuses on the"},{"t":749,"text":"broad design themes of massing. Heritage context, and separation space"},{"t":753,"text":"between the towers. Because it has anticipated that the overall"},{"t":757,"text":"scale of the prosyl will need to be revised for"},{"t":759,"text":"alignment with the OCP. And decap. I'm first going to"},{"t":764,"text":"summarize these three themes before walking you through the plans."},{"t":769,"text":"So I'll start with amassing on this slide in front"},{"t":771,"text":"of you here. The massing should complement adjacent heritage buildings"},{"t":776,"text":"and provide access to sunlight and views. To help achieve"},{"t":779,"text":"this, the towers should be set back from the street"},{"t":782,"text":"so that the base is the primary defining element for"},{"t":784,"text":"the site. The base along Fort Street should be approximately"},{"t":788,"text":"nine metres to 14 metres in height to achieve a"},{"t":791,"text":"comfortable street enclosure and to relate to the height of"},{"t":794,"text":"the heritage street walls nearby. This diagram illustrates this concept"},{"t":799,"text":"of having a base with the tarries above. Although the"},{"t":803,"text":"proposed seniors rental building does have a break in the"},{"t":805,"text":"facade, the majority of the street wild would be 34"},{"t":808,"text":"metres in height. Well above the envisioned maximum. The two"},{"t":813,"text":"straw the residential buildings do not have bases in our"},{"t":815,"text":"approximately 80 metres and 31 metres, respectively. I'll show this"},{"t":820,"text":"to you on the plans in the moment. The second"},{"t":824,"text":"broad design themes, the heritage context. New buildings should reflect"},{"t":828,"text":"the spatial organisation and elements of the historic facades of"},{"t":832,"text":"adjacent heritage buildings. Including the General Proportions, rhythm of structural"},{"t":837,"text":"bays, window wall ratios, and composition. The proposal's lack of"},{"t":843,"text":"an appropriate base, along with the ground floor material choice"},{"t":846,"text":"of glazing and aluminum composite panel, uh, does not achieve"},{"t":850,"text":"this. The proposed will also lacks the appearance of small"},{"t":854,"text":"- scale frontages with regular insight entrances, which is characteristic"},{"t":858,"text":"of the Fort Street corridor. This diagram illustrates some of"},{"t":862,"text":"these elements of nearby historic facades, which the proposal should"},{"t":866,"text":"be designed to reflect. And the last design theme that"},{"t":871,"text":"I'll highlight is the separation space between buildings. When multiple"},{"t":874,"text":"towers are located on one site, such as with this"},{"t":877,"text":"proposal, they should be located at least 20 metres apart"},{"t":881,"text":"to provide access to sun and help achieve livability and"},{"t":884,"text":"privacy for individual residential units. As illustrate in this diagram."},{"t":890,"text":"I'll show you on an upcoming slide how the proposal"},{"t":893,"text":"is substantially smaller separation spaces. And they'll show you the"},{"t":898,"text":"plans. Starting with the underground parking. The applicant is proposing"},{"t":903,"text":"variances to reduce the number of parking spaces from 318"},{"t":907,"text":"- 2089 to reduce the number of accessible parking spaces"},{"t":910,"text":"from 10 to 9 into decrease the minimum percentage of"},{"t":912,"text":"ground - mounted bike spaces from 51 percent The proposed"},{"t":918,"text":"transportation demand management measures. However, are considered insufficient mitigation for"},{"t":923,"text":"the proposed reduction in parking spaces and the variances therefore"},{"t":926,"text":"not supported. This is the proposed site plan. And level"},{"t":934,"text":"1 floor plan. At the top left is the senior's"},{"t":937,"text":"rental housing, which is 11 stories tall. You can see"},{"t":940,"text":"the commercial uses on the ground floor. An indoor amenity"},{"t":944,"text":"space is also located on this floor for the residents"},{"t":946,"text":"above. At top right is the 27 stray stradder residential"},{"t":950,"text":"building. Which also has commercial on the ground floor. And"},{"t":955,"text":"it includes a cafe. These two buildings both have main"},{"t":958,"text":"residential entrances off of 4t Street. At the bottom is"},{"t":962,"text":"the other strata residential building, which is 10 stories. This"},{"t":965,"text":"building also has commercial on the ground floor and the"},{"t":968,"text":"main entrance is off of quadrt Street. Access to the"},{"t":972,"text":"underground parking is from Broughton Street at the bottom of"},{"t":974,"text":"the image. This image also shows the proposed public plaza,"},{"t":978,"text":"which provides a pedestrian connection between Fort and Quadr Streets."},{"t":985,"text":"This is the second floor. The child care facilities and"},{"t":989,"text":"the seniors rental building with access to an outdoor play"},{"t":992,"text":"area. The strata building at top right has an indoor"},{"t":995,"text":"mayor D space and patio. And the strata building at"},{"t":998,"text":"the bottom also has a shared outdoor may of these"},{"t":1001,"text":"space access from level 2. Here's a typical floor plan"},{"t":1007,"text":"for the three proposed buildings. This image also shows how"},{"t":1011,"text":"the proposal does not meet the envisioned 20 metre separation"},{"t":1014,"text":"space between buildings. They're proposed 27 - story tower is"},{"t":1018,"text":"only 9. 09 metres apart from the rental building. And"},{"t":1023,"text":"only 13. 83 metres apart from the other strata building."},{"t":1027,"text":"The rental building is only 3. 34 metres from the"},{"t":1031,"text":"side property line. Which provides insufficient separation to the existing"},{"t":1036,"text":"adjacent tower. Tower should be located 10 metres from side"},{"t":1040,"text":"and rear property lines. This impacts access to sun, livability"},{"t":1045,"text":"and privacy for the residential units. Here's the 4th Street"},{"t":1050,"text":"elevation, exterior finishes include aluminum composite panel. Brick veneer window"},{"t":1056,"text":"wall, curtain wall glazing, and concrete. This image shows how"},{"t":1059,"text":"the proposal does not provide the base and the tower."},{"t":1063,"text":"Which reduces access sunlight and sky views from the public"},{"t":1066,"text":"street. You can also see the lack of separation space"},{"t":1069,"text":"between buildings on site. And the insufficient setback at the"},{"t":1073,"text":"right of the image. Here's the quadrus 3 elevation. This"},{"t":1080,"text":"image shows how the bases of the proposed buildings do"},{"t":1083,"text":"not reflect the spatial organisation and elements of the historic"},{"t":1086,"text":"facades of the adjacent heritage buildings. Such as the General"},{"t":1091,"text":"Proportions, rhythm of structural bays, window wall ratios and composition."},{"t":1096,"text":"Here's the Brown Street elevation, the existing adjacent building is"},{"t":1099,"text":"not shown in this image so that you can see"},{"t":1101,"text":"the South side of the rental building beyond it. This"},{"t":1107,"text":"slide shows the proposal with the existing adjacent building on"},{"t":1110,"text":"Bruten Street. The 10 to 12 story buildings that you"},{"t":1113,"text":"can see in this image are examples of the approximate"},{"t":1116,"text":"height that is envisioned for this location. In order to"},{"t":1120,"text":"transition from the tallest buildings in downtown out towards the"},{"t":1124,"text":"lower buildings in the Fairfield neighbourhood. The buildings and the"},{"t":1127,"text":"priority growth area along the edge of downtown are envisioned"},{"t":1129,"text":"to be up to six stories. And this slide. Shows"},{"t":1135,"text":"the proposal of the existing adjacent building on Fort Street."},{"t":1139,"text":"Again, you can see out does not provide the base"},{"t":1141,"text":"below the towers as well as the insufficient separation space."},{"t":1146,"text":"Here's the shadow study. And here is the landscape plan."},{"t":1155,"text":"Landscaping materials include hard and soft surfaces, including concrete paving,"},{"t":1158,"text":"unit pavers, trees and shrubs. As well as benches and"},{"t":1162,"text":"rain gardens. In this image, you can see how the"},{"t":1166,"text":"proposal includes green roofs. And here are renderings of the"},{"t":1174,"text":"proposal. In summary, while generally consistent with the objectives of"},{"t":1180,"text":"the OCP related to providing housing and commercial space, the"},{"t":1184,"text":"proposal for a development at the density of 6. 461"},{"t":1187,"text":"FSR with three buildings at 2, 11, and 10 stories"},{"t":1192,"text":"is inconsistent with the envisioned urban form for this area"},{"t":1195,"text":"of downtown. And greatly exceeds the heightened density and visioned"},{"t":1199,"text":"in the decap. Which undermines overarching city policy and exacerbates"},{"t":1204,"text":"land speculation concerns. The proposed design also does not meet"},{"t":1208,"text":"the broad objectives and key guidelines of the development perma"},{"t":1211,"text":"area related to massing, tarot separation, setbacks, and the response"},{"t":1215,"text":"to the diverse heritage character along Fort Street. Furthermore, proceeding"},{"t":1220,"text":"with this application, while the broader initiative to update the"},{"t":1223,"text":"DCAP is underway, could be problematic because it could presuppose"},{"t":1227,"text":"outcomes for the area caused confusion for stakeholders and the"},{"t":1231,"text":"road trust in the city's planning processes. It's there for"},{"t":1234,"text":"recommended for council's consideration at the application be declined. Thank"},{"t":1239,"text":"you, and I'd be happy to answer any questions. Thank"},{"t":1242,"text":"you very much, Mr. Bateman. We'll start with questions. We"},{"t":1245,"text":"would like to start. I have some questions if no"},{"t":1250,"text":"one else does. Councillor Loughton, you have some questions? Go"},{"t":1254,"text":"ahead. Why don't you start it? Good morning. Thanks and"},{"t":1260,"text":"through you, Mayor. Thanks for the presentation. Um, I'm just,"},{"t":1266,"text":"I'm curious about the overall, um, overview of this project"},{"t":1272,"text":"I read in some of the documents that the initial"},{"t":1275,"text":"rezoning happened in 2017. And I'm wondering if you could"},{"t":1279,"text":"just give me a background on. Why this has been"},{"t":1284,"text":"nine years in the making. Through the mayor, uh, sure"},{"t":1290,"text":"I can provide some background. There was a previous application."},{"t":1295,"text":"I believe, uh, it was around applied for in 2017."},{"t":1299,"text":"And, uh, it ended up being retired in 2024. And"},{"t":1304,"text":"that was for a 10 story mixed use building. I"},{"t":1307,"text":"believe that one did go to the Committee of the"},{"t":1308,"text":"Whole, uh, but it was, it didn't proceed beyond that."},{"t":1312,"text":"And so, uh, yeah, so the application ended at that"},{"t":1315,"text":"point in time. It was not rezoned at that point"},{"t":1318,"text":"in time. Was that the same proponent. Or through the"},{"t":1325,"text":"math, shallot way in manager of neighbourhood development planning? I"},{"t":1328,"text":"do have some context on the previous proposals and the"},{"t":1332,"text":"ownership is the same, um, from the previous proposals. The"},{"t":1335,"text":"reason why it was paused, um, from the, from the"},{"t":1338,"text":"previous submission was at the applicant's choice. Um, I believe"},{"t":1343,"text":"they were reevaluating whether to proceed when the application got"},{"t":1348,"text":"to the legal agreement stage. Okay. And if you don't"},{"t":1352,"text":"mind, can you remind me there's a, I believe there's"},{"t":1356,"text":"a project happening at the YMCA site. Do we know"},{"t":1360,"text":"the height of that building that would be right adjacent"},{"t":1364,"text":"to this one. Is we? Thank you, Souther Mayor. Those"},{"t":1371,"text":"proposals, I believe, um, are still in the pre -"},{"t":1374,"text":"application stage. Okay. Um, so they actually, the material that's"},{"t":1379,"text":"been presented to the local CALAC, the downtown residence association,"},{"t":1382,"text":"but that has lapsed. Um, so should that propose or"},{"t":1385,"text":"go forward. There will be expected to proceed with another"},{"t":1388,"text":"CALAC meeting presenting whether they're proposal has changed or not."},{"t":1392,"text":"Okay. Um, thanks for that. When is the update to"},{"t":1399,"text":"DECAP expected. Mr. Johnson. Thank you through the"},{"t":1408,"text":"mayor, Alec Johnston acting director of planning and development. Um,"},{"t":1413,"text":"we have direction from council following the OCP adoption to"},{"t":1417,"text":"proceed with, um, work on updating the DCAP and staff"},{"t":1423,"text":"have been working since then on scoping that work. And"},{"t":1426,"text":"we'll be bringing forward, uh, report, um, in the coming"},{"t":1430,"text":"months for council. That will outline sort of the scope"},{"t":1436,"text":"of the decap review and the timing associated with it."},{"t":1439,"text":"But, um, it is a longer term, uh, long range"},{"t":1442,"text":"policy, um, work that will take some time to complete"},{"t":1446,"text":"several months. Through the mayor. So in the report, which"},{"t":1452,"text":"we'll be coming forward likely before the summer break, uh,"},{"t":1455,"text":"council break, um, that will provide an update on what"},{"t":1460,"text":"would be in scope for DCAP and sort of timelines"},{"t":1463,"text":"associated with DCAP as well as some other, um, recommended"},{"t":1467,"text":"actions that we're looking at providing to support, um, economic"},{"t":1473,"text":"vibrancy in the city. Um, and so that those would"},{"t":1477,"text":"be both short term actions as well as long term"},{"t":1480,"text":"actions, uh, through updated policy. Okay. Um. Assuming, I'm just"},{"t":1489,"text":"making an assumption here that council chooses the alternate motion"},{"t":1493,"text":"today. How long, what's the estimated timeline to see this"},{"t":1497,"text":"back at Committee of the Whole. Does Wayne. Thank you"},{"t":1504,"text":"through the mayor. Um, I think it's a difficult question"},{"t":1507,"text":"to answer because a lot of that would depend on,"},{"t":1509,"text":"um, how fast the applicant can move to revise the"},{"t":1513,"text":"proposal. Um, but, um, yeah, I think it's really, uh,"},{"t":1518,"text":"there are many factors at play that would determine the"},{"t":1521,"text":"timeline. Okay. Um. The, in just one final question, Mayor,"},{"t":1529,"text":"in the presentation and the report, there's mention of that"},{"t":1533,"text":"the heritage building on this site. What's the actual plan"},{"t":1536,"text":"for the heritage building. Raven? Uh, through the mayor apologies,"},{"t":1542,"text":"there's some confusion there, but the site is not actually"},{"t":1545,"text":"heritage registered or designated. Okay. Sorry. I thought you said"},{"t":1548,"text":"that. Okay. So the idea would be to somehow along"},{"t":1553,"text":"Fort Street make it compatible with the other heritage buildings."},{"t":1557,"text":"Is that am I understanding that correctly? Through the mayor,"},{"t":1560,"text":"that's correct. So the design guidelines, uh, speak to how"},{"t":1563,"text":"the building should be designed to fit with the heritage"},{"t":1565,"text":"context of the fourth street corridor overall. Okay. Thank you."},{"t":1570,"text":"That's it for me. Thank you. Anybody else? Councillor Gardner"},{"t":1573,"text":"and then Councillor Coleman. Thank you. Um, okay. So building"},{"t":1578,"text":"the northwest corner. Part of the properties, which is proposed"},{"t":1583,"text":"or suggested to be a senior building. It would have"},{"t":1585,"text":"been designated 55 plus. Of the details of those legal"},{"t":1593,"text":"agreements have not been fully worked out with the applicant"},{"t":1596,"text":"yet. At this point in time, we have discussed with"},{"t":1602,"text":"the applicant that the applicant is proposed to curing the"},{"t":1604,"text":"building as rental, uh, for the life of the building."},{"t":1608,"text":"I believe typically we would not secure the actual age"},{"t":1613,"text":"bracket through legal agreements. We would leave that for it"},{"t":1617,"text":"to be more flexible in the future. Uh, however, I"},{"t":1621,"text":"believe that the applicant has mentioned 55 plus is something"},{"t":1623,"text":"that they were aiming for. Yeah. Thank you. And I"},{"t":1627,"text":"think you said a 10 year rental guarantee were normally"},{"t":1630,"text":"we see like a lot longer than use states 10"},{"t":1634,"text":"in your presentation. It's Raven. Uh, through the mayor, uh,"},{"t":1638,"text":"the applicant is said the rental would be for the"},{"t":1640,"text":"life of the building. And I believe the, for the"},{"t":1647,"text":"ability. Oh, the affordability is 10 years. Is that it?"},{"t":1652,"text":"Okay. Got it. Got it. The rental is for the"},{"t":1657,"text":"lengthy billing. Got it. Thank you very much. I got"},{"t":1659,"text":"that off. Do we have anything, any schematics at all"},{"t":1663,"text":"that would show any issues to do with sight lines"},{"t":1666,"text":"for Christ church cathedral. Superman. Through the"},{"t":1675,"text":"mayor, excuse me, we don't have specific diagrams of that."},{"t":1683,"text":"Could you explain maybe which angles you're thinking of? Your"},{"t":1686,"text":"site? I'm thinking about tall tower. When you're looking from"},{"t":1690,"text":"elsewhere, because right now Christ Church Cathedral is visible from"},{"t":1693,"text":"different places and directly to the north, it would be"},{"t":1697,"text":"visible. And that would be, I would think hidden when"},{"t":1699,"text":"you get that tower. I'm not sure. I don't have"},{"t":1702,"text":"the schematics. And so I was just somewhat concerned about"},{"t":1705,"text":"it. So it's very. I had someone who wasn't used"},{"t":1712,"text":"to Victoria. We drove up. We were walking up there"},{"t":1715,"text":"to take the grandkids to that playground. And the man"},{"t":1719,"text":"was, he was European was just stunned to see Christ"},{"t":1721,"text":"Cathedral. It was just so impactful. And so I'm just"},{"t":1725,"text":"worried I want to make sure that's looked at. It"},{"t":1728,"text":"may be probably not be. I just don't. I just"},{"t":1731,"text":"think that we should be looking at that too. Okay."},{"t":1734,"text":"Um, last question is for now, um, the increase in"},{"t":1741,"text":"building height is a 222 percent increase over decal. Correct."},{"t":1746,"text":"That's what, okay. And so I have to ask this"},{"t":1750,"text":"question given that it's a 222 percent increase over the"},{"t":1753,"text":"decal. Is this proposal actually consistent with the OCP? I"},{"t":1759,"text":"understand what you said about the development permit guidelines is"},{"t":1762,"text":"not. But how can something that's 222 percent above anything"},{"t":1768,"text":"be considered consistent. Mr. Bateman. Through the mayor. So there"},{"t":1776,"text":"are aspects of the OCP that the application is consistent"},{"t":1779,"text":"with. The overall providing housing provided commercial space in the"},{"t":1783,"text":"downtown. However, there are aspects that it's not consistent with"},{"t":1789,"text":"which are relayed to the urban form. And so that"},{"t":1793,"text":"is related to these diagrams here. The urban amphitheater concept"},{"t":1797,"text":"and having the taller buildings and certainly location in downtown."},{"t":1801,"text":"Excuse me. Desi. So. Is there a point when a"},{"t":1805,"text":"variance of density or height is significant enough to result"},{"t":1810,"text":"in a proposal not being consistent with the OCP. Mr."},{"t":1814,"text":"Bateman. Yes. Through the Milora attempt chance of that question."},{"t":1822,"text":"The new OCP that council adopted in October is much"},{"t":1825,"text":"broader in its nature. Um, the OCP that it replaced"},{"t":1829,"text":"did have policies containing density and height provisions, but the"},{"t":1833,"text":"new OCP does not, um, so it's much broader in"},{"t":1836,"text":"its nature and therefore, um, the policies are primarily related"},{"t":1840,"text":"to land use sustainability climate change. And the use provisions"},{"t":1848,"text":"and what is being proposed here is Mr. Bateman's pointed"},{"t":1850,"text":"out are consistent with the OCP. But the OCP does"},{"t":1853,"text":"refer to the design guidelines for more specific details, which"},{"t":1858,"text":"the proposal is not consistent with. Okay. So, so there"},{"t":1862,"text":"is, do I interpret that to me? There is no"},{"t":1864,"text":"limit. To variance that would make in the way of"},{"t":1869,"text":"density that would make a proposal inconsistent with the OCP."},{"t":1874,"text":"Is there no limit. I see Steph looking at Mr."},{"t":1878,"text":"Johnston. Through the mayor. Um, I guess technically there is"},{"t":1886,"text":"no limit in terms of a density figure. Um, however,"},{"t":1890,"text":"there are a range of objectives and different policies within"},{"t":1895,"text":"the OCP that may be challenging to meet as a"},{"t":1898,"text":"building gets larger in scale. Um, so for example, there"},{"t":1902,"text":"can be impacts that, you know, broader impacts beyond the"},{"t":1906,"text":"site in terms of, you know, the working harbour essentially,"},{"t":1911,"text":"um, and the functioning of different activities within the harbour."},{"t":1915,"text":"That was something we touched on, um, uh, I guess"},{"t":1918,"text":"a couple of months ago with another application that was"},{"t":1920,"text":"proposing a much taller building than what, uh, was envisioned"},{"t":1924,"text":"for downtown. So while the density figure itself may not"},{"t":1928,"text":"be something that, um, challenges the OCP, the scale of"},{"t":1932,"text":"a building as it gets larger may make it very"},{"t":1935,"text":"challenging to align with other, um, OCP objectives. And I"},{"t":1941,"text":"just, sorry, one another thing I just wanted to add"},{"t":1943,"text":"in terms of the, the, uh, alignment with the OCP."},{"t":1946,"text":"The OCP does envision, you know, the tallest buildings in"},{"t":1950,"text":"the city being in the downtown. This is the area"},{"t":1953,"text":"where we anticipate seeing, you know, the highest density and"},{"t":1956,"text":"tallest buildings. Um, so in that way, this proposal is"},{"t":1960,"text":"consistent as well with that aspect of the OCP. Although"},{"t":1964,"text":"the, the, there is, as shown on the screen here,"},{"t":1969,"text":"a sort of envisioned urban form, uh, that's illustrated in"},{"t":1973,"text":"this diagram. Uh, but there are no heights sort of"},{"t":1977,"text":"specifically attached to this. It's just showing a transition in"},{"t":1981,"text":"height. Um, and that is detailed in the, in the"},{"t":1984,"text":"downtown corps area plan. And that's where this project then"},{"t":1988,"text":"is, uh, is quite clearly inconsistent with the decap in"},{"t":1991,"text":"terms of building height and density. Thank you, Mayor. I"},{"t":1996,"text":"may have more questions since we hear others. Thank you."},{"t":1998,"text":"Very good. Councillor Coleman. Thank you. And through your worship,"},{"t":2001,"text":"thank you for moving to this screen because that's what"},{"t":2004,"text":"I was going to ask for. Um, if I read"},{"t":2006,"text":"this properly across the street, the building could be 15"},{"t":2011,"text":"stories. Is that correct? Directly across from the star. Going"},{"t":2020,"text":"across on force. Uh, through the mayor across, because of."},{"t":2029,"text":"The street, you mean? On the north side. Yeah. That"},{"t":2031,"text":"would be 15 stories. That is a category up. To"},{"t":2035,"text":"the west would be 20 stories. Yes. The purple colour"},{"t":2042,"text":"on the diagram. Thank you. Um, I mean, this, this"},{"t":2047,"text":"has been a long process for this applicant and for"},{"t":2050,"text":"this particular piece of property. If I remember, um, when"},{"t":2055,"text":"it was last in front of council, it was a"},{"t":2057,"text":"much lower building. And I don't think it was a"},{"t":2061,"text":"direction, but it was, um, Obhiter. It was opinion from"},{"t":2065,"text":"council that the building could be taller. Am I correct"},{"t":2070,"text":"in that memory. That's certainly my recollection, that's. Through the"},{"t":2077,"text":"mayor. I was actually the, uh, the senior planner handling"},{"t":2080,"text":"that application at the time. So I'd probably have the"},{"t":2083,"text":"most institutional knowledge of that one. Uh, glad I asked"},{"t":2087,"text":"then. But yes, I think there was some, I recall"},{"t":2090,"text":"some discussion about potentially, uh, you know, a taller building,"},{"t":2094,"text":"um, could be suitable, uh, for this site. The site"},{"t":2097,"text":"was large enough and given its location. It could accommodate"},{"t":2100,"text":"a taller building. Um, and I think staff have also"},{"t":2104,"text":"continued to have those discussions with the applicant about, you"},{"t":2107,"text":"know, potentially a somewhat taller than the 12 story building"},{"t":2111,"text":"could be supportable here. Um, it's just a matter of"},{"t":2114,"text":"what's considered sort of within sort of, uh, reasonable, um,"},{"t":2119,"text":"range of what the policy envisions. But that was under"},{"t":2123,"text":"a different OCP and a different decap. Through the mayor."},{"t":2128,"text":"That's correct. Yes. And that, that application did advance through"},{"t":2131,"text":"Committee of the Whole. And we were working on legal"},{"t":2133,"text":"agreements with the applicant at the time. Um, and then"},{"t":2136,"text":"in 2020, uh, they had to shift their focus to"},{"t":2140,"text":"some other, uh, urgent priorities. And this, this application was"},{"t":2145,"text":"sort of placed on hold for a time. Um, but"},{"t":2149,"text":"was still an active application until 2024 when it was"},{"t":2153,"text":"closed out. So is this then a particularly unusual partly"},{"t":2156,"text":"because of the length of time. Is this a particularly"},{"t":2159,"text":"unusual application with respect to being caught in the variance"},{"t":2163,"text":"between changing OCPs and changing decaps. Mr. Johnson. Through the"},{"t":2173,"text":"mayor. This, yeah, this is like an active application that"},{"t":2178,"text":"was, has sort of, uh, carried on through some transitional"},{"t":2184,"text":"periods in terms of policy. Um, however, we have, uh,"},{"t":2188,"text":"continue to communicate early and often with applicants to make"},{"t":2192,"text":"them aware of the, uh, the changes that are coming"},{"t":2196,"text":"so they can adjust or respond. And we also look"},{"t":2200,"text":"to take a very, um, reasonable approach when we're handling"},{"t":2204,"text":"people's applications that were made under a different context. Thank"},{"t":2207,"text":"you. Thank you. Any other questions? I have a couple"},{"t":2212,"text":"of questions, but I'll look always first to counsel. Let's"},{"t":2215,"text":"see anybody else. A couple of questions. What is the"},{"t":2219,"text":"height of the kitty cornered view towers. Through the mayor,"},{"t":2226,"text":"I believe that's 19 stories. That's getting nodding from grid."},{"t":2231,"text":"Great. And the recently endorsed my council Harris Green compound,"},{"t":2236,"text":"I guess you call it or multiple spaces. What are"},{"t":2239,"text":"the, what is the tallest building in those two sites,"},{"t":2243,"text":"those adjacent sites, which are a few blocks away through"},{"t":2245,"text":"you, Mary, the current zoning permits up to 20 stories."},{"t":2251,"text":"What am I not correct in believing that they intend"},{"t":2253,"text":"to have something much taller and at least one of"},{"t":2255,"text":"the buildings? My understanding is there is one DP that"},{"t":2259,"text":"was approved for 21 stories, but no other DPs have"},{"t":2263,"text":"been approved. And so, uh, I'm not sure if my"},{"t":2267,"text":"colleagues know what the applicants intending to apply for, but"},{"t":2270,"text":"they haven't been approved yet. Yes, please, Ms. Wayne, because"},{"t":2275,"text":"I think that there was discussion when it came forward"},{"t":2277,"text":"of something much taller, at least one of the buildings."},{"t":2280,"text":"Thank you through you, Mayor. And I'll claim institutional knowledge"},{"t":2284,"text":"on this one as I was a senior planner, handing"},{"t":2286,"text":"that file. The council has approved a rezoning, as Mr"},{"t":2292,"text":"Bateman pointed out that that rezoning does cap the height"},{"t":2296,"text":"at the OCP consistent policies. There was always the expectation"},{"t":2303,"text":"from stuff that, um, the tallest towers that were proposed"},{"t":2306,"text":"in the 900 block, um, that would be, that were"},{"t":2309,"text":"proposed to be up to 32 stories would come forward"},{"t":2312,"text":"as part of a future development with various application. Um,"},{"t":2315,"text":"because we didn't have the details of the form and"},{"t":2318,"text":"massing at that time. Right. And that was the approach"},{"t":2321,"text":"that staff took, um, ensure that there'd be an opportunity"},{"t":2325,"text":"for council to consider those toiler buildings in the future."},{"t":2328,"text":"Great. Thank you for that. That was my understanding as"},{"t":2330,"text":"well. Um, you referenced earlier, a number of you referenced"},{"t":2334,"text":"that the, um, expectation is that you will be doing"},{"t":2337,"text":"new work on the decap soon. And that will hear"},{"t":2340,"text":"more about that later in the summer. Uh, I know"},{"t":2343,"text":"that you can't specify or even speculate on how long"},{"t":2347,"text":"that will take. I guess my question is what happens"},{"t":2351,"text":"in the meantime. If you're talking about doing a thorough"},{"t":2354,"text":"review and that's likely to take more than months, I"},{"t":2357,"text":"suspect at least a year. Are we expecting nothing to"},{"t":2362,"text":"be proposed between now and then that could in fact"},{"t":2365,"text":"be in conflict with the existing policies. Mr. Johnston. Thank"},{"t":2372,"text":"you. Um, excuse me. Um, much as like we did"},{"t":2379,"text":"with the OCP. Uh, project, we would, um, continue to"},{"t":2386,"text":"accept applications. We would work with applicants to make them"},{"t":2390,"text":"aware of current policies, uh, and as well as, you"},{"t":2396,"text":"know, the emerging work as, uh, as that proceeds. Um,"},{"t":2400,"text":"so, uh, I expect that we would be able to"},{"t":2403,"text":"continue to, um, accept, review and bring forward, uh, supportable"},{"t":2408,"text":"applications, uh, while that work is underway. Um. Yeah, I"},{"t":2413,"text":"guess I would just, uh, maybe signal that, um, we"},{"t":2418,"text":"have active applications right now that currently align with, with"},{"t":2423,"text":"DCAP. Um, or at least are generally in alignment to"},{"t":2427,"text":"the point where they are considered supportable applications. Um, and"},{"t":2431,"text":"we look at the full suite of policies as well."},{"t":2434,"text":"So not just DCAP, but also, um, you know, the"},{"t":2437,"text":"design guidelines for downtown. Our zoning regulations, our OCP, most"},{"t":2442,"text":"importantly. So council may recall we had an act of"},{"t":2446,"text":"publication that was brought forward, um, on Yaets and cook"},{"t":2449,"text":"quite recently. And that was, um, proposing a building that"},{"t":2453,"text":"exceeded the decap policies in terms of density and height."},{"t":2458,"text":"Uh, but on balance looking at, um, the many ways"},{"t":2462,"text":"in which it met policy, other policies as well as"},{"t":2464,"text":"the OCP staff recommended support for that application and council"},{"t":2468,"text":"house advanced it. So that's just an example of how"},{"t":2471,"text":"we try to take a flexible approach, especially during these"},{"t":2474,"text":"transitional times. Thank you for that. That might be in"},{"t":2478,"text":"fact an answer to the earlier question as to why"},{"t":2480,"text":"you could note that it's generally an okay with the"},{"t":2484,"text":"OCP, but there are concerns. Okay. Uh, those were my"},{"t":2487,"text":"questions. I had a couple of others that were already"},{"t":2489,"text":"asked and answers. So I won't bother repeating myself. Yes."},{"t":2493,"text":"Councillor Del question is. Thank you for this through the"},{"t":2497,"text":"mayor. I'm wondering if staff, the lot of information presented"},{"t":2500,"text":"to us in a, in a relatively short time frame,"},{"t":2503,"text":"I'm wondering if you could summarize maybe the three things"},{"t":2506,"text":"you're going to be asking for if this application is"},{"t":2509,"text":"sent back to work. I think I know what they"},{"t":2511,"text":"are, but I want to know like what are the"},{"t":2513,"text":"main issues that staff are going to be asking to"},{"t":2516,"text":"kind of highlight that need to be changed. Mr Redman."},{"t":2521,"text":"Through the mayor. So the main areas, the main inconsistencies"},{"t":2526,"text":"with the policies, the OCP and DCAP, which are relayed"},{"t":2529,"text":"to the height density as we've been speaking about, uh,"},{"t":2533,"text":"and then the design guidelines. And at a broad level,"},{"t":2537,"text":"the three main areas that we were pointing out, uh,"},{"t":2540,"text":"were the heritage context. And then the massing and the"},{"t":2543,"text":"tower, um, tower and base, uh, is the second one."},{"t":2547,"text":"And the third one being separation space between buildings. And"},{"t":2550,"text":"so inconsistencies with the design guidelines, uh, and then there"},{"t":2554,"text":"would other, be details that would need to be worked"},{"t":2556,"text":"out with the applicant. Okay. Thank you. So, um, do"},{"t":2559,"text":"the mayor. I know you can't give pre - approval,"},{"t":2561,"text":"but if those three things were addressed by the applicant,"},{"t":2564,"text":"they would be in a better position to receive staff"},{"t":2567,"text":"approval, ideally, through the mayor definitely in the better position."},{"t":2571,"text":"It would be improved. Okay. Thank you. Through the mayor,"},{"t":2574,"text":"I don't know if you might have able to answer"},{"t":2575,"text":"this question, but this process has been a bit, um,"},{"t":2578,"text":"confusing to me and a bit, I think it just"},{"t":2581,"text":"doesn't seem like an ideal process. This came to us"},{"t":2585,"text":"last Friday. We have six day three view. This huge"},{"t":2589,"text":"application, uh, that's recommended to decline a massive investment in"},{"t":2593,"text":"our city. Have those conversations not been happening? Have they"},{"t":2596,"text":"just not been listening or have those conversations not been"},{"t":2599,"text":"happening? Like where has the breakdown been between pretty clearly"},{"t":2603,"text":"you're asking for three things. It pretty clearly wasn't done."},{"t":2607,"text":"And now we're recommending to be rejected. What happened there?"},{"t":2609,"text":"I'm just, it does not make sense to me, honestly."},{"t":2615,"text":"Mr. Bateman through the mayor. So when the application was"},{"t":2619,"text":"first submitted, uh, because of the extent, the degree that"},{"t":2623,"text":"it is outside the height and massing policies, uh, those"},{"t":2626,"text":"are what staff or folks, what staff we're focusing on"},{"t":2630,"text":"trying to get the applicant to bring it in line"},{"t":2632,"text":"overall, the big picture, uh, policies afterwards the design details"},{"t":2637,"text":"would be worked out where the other details will be"},{"t":2639,"text":"worked out to follow that, uh, but the applicant, so"},{"t":2643,"text":"multiple times, staff asked the applicant to make those changes"},{"t":2646,"text":"and the applicant decided not to and they decided they'd"},{"t":2649,"text":"like to proceed with this current proposal. Councillor Dell. Oh,"},{"t":2656,"text":"Ms. Marine, go ahead. Thank you through the mayor. Just"},{"t":2659,"text":"one further point just to add that it is not,"},{"t":2661,"text":"um, staff always have the objective as Mr. Bateman pointed"},{"t":2664,"text":"out to work with applicants, um, bring proposals in line"},{"t":2668,"text":"with policy. Um, so there is lots of conversation that"},{"t":2671,"text":"happens before an application gets to this point. Um, but"},{"t":2675,"text":"ultimately it is the applicant's decision about whether they want"},{"t":2678,"text":"to proceed to the, to committee of the whole, um,"},{"t":2681,"text":"but, um, yeah, this is always our preference to, and"},{"t":2686,"text":"recommendation to applicants that, um, a proposal that meets the"},{"t":2690,"text":"policy. Is the easiest path forward. And I believe Mr."},{"t":2697,"text":"Johnston has anything, Chad. Mr. Johnson, go. Just, just one"},{"t":2700,"text":"more thing to add. Um, we, we, we are always"},{"t":2705,"text":"looking to collaborate with applicants and make ourselves available early,"},{"t":2709,"text":"uh, to have those discussions, uh, even before they're making"},{"t":2712,"text":"an application so that they haven't understanding of, you know,"},{"t":2716,"text":"or we can help to ensure they have an understanding"},{"t":2718,"text":"of what the city's expectations are in terms of policy"},{"t":2724,"text":"and regulations for a property. And I understand there were"},{"t":2727,"text":"even conversations prior to the application being made where staff"},{"t":2732,"text":"had been communicating to the applicant, you know, what would"},{"t":2735,"text":"be considered a supportable application. And to Ms. Wayne's point,"},{"t":2739,"text":"the applicant has chosen to proceed with this proposal. Um,"},{"t":2744,"text":"for their own reasons. And, uh, ultimately it's our job"},{"t":2747,"text":"to process that and bring it to council for your"},{"t":2749,"text":"consideration. Councillor D. Okay, I would be ready to move"},{"t":2753,"text":"the alternative recommendation in absence of anyone else. Are there"},{"t":2757,"text":"any other questions. Yes. Hang on. Mr. Bateman, did you"},{"t":2762,"text":"have something to add. And I know what you're going"},{"t":2767,"text":"to say, so I'll just hang on. Do something else"},{"t":2770,"text":"you'd like to have? I'm sorry. Uh, through you, Mayor,"},{"t":2773,"text":"I just wanted to clarify in case it wasn't clear"},{"t":2775,"text":"an earlier question from Councillor Gardner about views of Christ"},{"t":2778,"text":"Cathedral. There are a number of views in the plan"},{"t":2782,"text":"package. Uh, I just wasn't sure if those directly addressed"},{"t":2785,"text":"what you were looking for. So in the plan package"},{"t":2788,"text":"attached to the report, there are a number of renderings"},{"t":2791,"text":"and views, uh, of the proposal. They're just not in"},{"t":2794,"text":"the presentation. Thank you. I tried to see them and"},{"t":2797,"text":"wasn't clear on, especially when schematics don't have street names"},{"t":2801,"text":"on them sometimes. So, so I wasn't clear what was"},{"t":2805,"text":"proposed because they had somebody schematic showed other billings that"},{"t":2809,"text":"hypothetically might be put in. Etc. And so that's why"},{"t":2813,"text":"I wasn't clear on it. So if it comes forward"},{"t":2817,"text":"to us again, perhaps simplify that part so we can"},{"t":2820,"text":"actually see it. Thank you. Okay. Thanks. I am aware"},{"t":2823,"text":"because of our earlier, uh, opening of the meeting that"},{"t":2826,"text":"Councillor Hammond wished to actually move the staff recommendation. I"},{"t":2830,"text":"am presuming that you would like to do so. Yes,"},{"t":2834,"text":"Mayor. So good. And Councillor Gardner is seconding. Uh, that"},{"t":2837,"text":"is our convention by all means. And so let's start"},{"t":2839,"text":"with that. So Councillor Hammond, you're moving. The staff recommendation"},{"t":2843,"text":"to decline over to you. Thanks, Mayor. I see positive"},{"t":2851,"text":"elements in this proposal additional rental housing housing for seniors,"},{"t":2855,"text":"especially when Victoria seniors population is about 22 percent higher"},{"t":2858,"text":"than the rest of Canada. 14 affordable units out of"},{"t":2862,"text":"329, but those are only for 10 years. A good"},{"t":2865,"text":"housing mix of two and three bedroom units, child care"},{"t":2868,"text":"spaces, public art recognising indigenous history and culture. And efforts"},{"t":2873,"text":"to support multimodal transportations are positive, although even staff have"},{"t":2878,"text":"identified shortcomings there. However, I worry about creating a precedent"},{"t":2884,"text":"where a handful of public benefits effectively becomes a blank"},{"t":2887,"text":"check for excessive height and density. This proposed development is"},{"t":2893,"text":"far outside the scope of what is required in this"},{"t":2895,"text":"part of the city. And don't take my word for"},{"t":2898,"text":"it, of course. This is coming from a professional staff."},{"t":2900,"text":"Following council's direction. This is the second time in a"},{"t":2905,"text":"very short, uh, while that our planning staff has told"},{"t":2908,"text":"us told us not to just reject a proposal, but"},{"t":2912,"text":"for the second time, they have not given us a"},{"t":2914,"text":"detailed alternative motion because this proposal is so far off"},{"t":2918,"text":"the mark. I think we also need to think carefully"},{"t":2922,"text":"about the signal we send when proposals this far outside"},{"t":2925,"text":"our planning framework continue moving deep into the process. This"},{"t":2929,"text":"consumes substantial staff time. It consumes counsel time. And it"},{"t":2935,"text":"also consumes proponent resources, pursuing something that was unlikely to"},{"t":2941,"text":"align with our stated requirements from the beginning. If council"},{"t":2944,"text":"repeatedly entertains proposals that are dramatically beyond what our plans"},{"t":2949,"text":"contemplate, we risk creating the impression that the real negotiation"},{"t":2954,"text":"simply starts at the extreme. This isn't fair to residents"},{"t":2958,"text":"trying to understand what the rules are. It's not fair"},{"t":2961,"text":"to staff, tasked with applying the rules set by council."},{"t":2965,"text":"In a professional and consistent manner. And ultimately, it's not"},{"t":2969,"text":"even fair to applicants trying to understand what this council"},{"t":2972,"text":"is realistically prepared to support. I support housing. I support"},{"t":2977,"text":"additional rental housing. And I support density that is appropriate."},{"t":2981,"text":"But planning rules only retain public trust. If they actually"},{"t":2985,"text":"mean something. And if every proposal starts way beyond what"},{"t":2989,"text":"our policies and vision eventually our policies stop functioning as"},{"t":2993,"text":"guidance and start functioning as mere suggestions. In this proposal,"},{"t":2998,"text":"one of the buildings is 220 percent over our building"},{"t":3002,"text":"height limits in 29 percent over our density limits. My"},{"t":3007,"text":"vote to accept the staff recommendation to reject this proposal"},{"t":3010,"text":"will be on the side of telling developers they need"},{"t":3013,"text":"to bring us building plans that are reasonable. Unfortunately on"},{"t":3017,"text":"so many levels, this isn't anywhere near reasonable. Thank you,"},{"t":3021,"text":"councillor. Councillor Gardner is a secondary. Thank you. Again. Thank"},{"t":3027,"text":"you to Staff for the report and presentation and thank"},{"t":3029,"text":"you to the residents who wrote emails to us last"},{"t":3032,"text":"year. Uh, there were some very thoughtful and insightful comments"},{"t":3035,"text":"in those emails. This area the city does need to"},{"t":3038,"text":"redo. I walked it a couple of days ago. The"},{"t":3041,"text":"land assembly of this project allows for something beyond a"},{"t":3044,"text":"tower structure. There is much to be commended on this"},{"t":3048,"text":"proposed development and several reasons to want changes made to"},{"t":3051,"text":"it. The daycare on the second floor of the daycare"},{"t":3054,"text":"deck is really welcome. My granddaughter, uh, was in one"},{"t":3057,"text":"of those on a second floor, they actually work very"},{"t":3059,"text":"well. Especially for very young children. The plaza area and"},{"t":3064,"text":"mid block walkthrough is also desirable and open hour should"},{"t":3067,"text":"be generous, but lock off will be needed. Mixed use"},{"t":3070,"text":"is welcome in this area. An architectural feature that can"},{"t":3073,"text":"be used as a theatre or entertainment stage. It's also"},{"t":3076,"text":"exciting. On the problem side, heightened massing and respect or"},{"t":3080,"text":"not for heritage character 4th Street, our major issues. The"},{"t":3084,"text":"OCP envisioned base of 3. 1 with consideration of 5."},{"t":3090,"text":"5 to 1 with bonus density. The ask here is"},{"t":3093,"text":"even more at 6. 5 to 1. Far too much"},{"t":3097,"text":"for the site. We need reduced height and massing. Perhaps"},{"t":3101,"text":"11 to 15 stories off the northeast tower. Parking while"},{"t":3106,"text":"car share and some institutional park you may suffice for"},{"t":3109,"text":"the senior's building, the parking requirement of 318 is needed."},{"t":3114,"text":"189 is too few for this level of residential and"},{"t":3117,"text":"commercial complex. Reading staff comments from their report, they're very"},{"t":3122,"text":"important statements within it. That is maintaining the city's intended"},{"t":3127,"text":"form urban form fosters are predictable investment and development ecosystem."},{"t":3133,"text":"At certainty to infrastructure investments and helps to manage land"},{"t":3137,"text":"speculation. Approving your proposal that is this far out of"},{"t":3140,"text":"alignment with building heightened scale policy may detract from these"},{"t":3145,"text":"goals. And further the report states. The proposed design does"},{"t":3149,"text":"not meet the broad objectus. In response to the vs"},{"t":3152,"text":"Heritage character along four street is very important. The proposal"},{"t":3156,"text":"as this is really not supportable. Mention has been made"},{"t":3159,"text":"of trust with the city. Within, I mean our population"},{"t":3164,"text":"within our community. The OCP really is not totally accepted"},{"t":3169,"text":"now. Breaking form with the OCP 2050 in this extreme"},{"t":3174,"text":"way. Will not be acceptable to the General public. It"},{"t":3178,"text":"simply will not be. And I worry again that something"},{"t":3183,"text":"like this going forward that is so extreme. Will cause"},{"t":3187,"text":"even greater division in the city which we already have."},{"t":3190,"text":"So thank you again to staff and I believe that"},{"t":3193,"text":"this should be declined. Thank you very much. Councillor Kim"},{"t":3196,"text":"on the motion to deploy. Through the chair. Thanks questions"},{"t":3201,"text":"actually. Um the currently existing commercial tenants. Did you happen"},{"t":3207,"text":"to have a new conversations with the applicant about them."},{"t":3212,"text":"Mr. Bateman through the mayor I know we actually did"},{"t":3215,"text":"not that. Um. This seems like"},{"t":3224,"text":"a lotal question. Bear with me. Um, has the City"},{"t":3230,"text":"ever explored anything like a writer first refusal for commercial"},{"t":3233,"text":"tenants returning. Not unlike what we are seeing with the"},{"t":3240,"text":"hair is green commercial tenants. I'm going to suggest that"},{"t":3245,"text":"that is in fact not at all material to the"},{"t":3247,"text":"discussion before us. You're always welcome to venture an opinion."},{"t":3250,"text":"Should you choose to do so? Uh, but that as"},{"t":3253,"text":"I understand it is in fact not at all a"},{"t":3255,"text":"consideration for the proposal that's sitting in front of us."},{"t":3261,"text":"Sorry councillor. Oh, that's okay. If they don't want to"},{"t":3264,"text":"answer just let me know. Through the mehr, I actually"},{"t":3266,"text":"don't have that information. I'm not sure if my colleagues"},{"t":3268,"text":"have anything to add. When do you know of any"},{"t":3271,"text":"of that? Thank you through the mayor. We don't have"},{"t":3272,"text":"any policies that do what you're suggesting for commercial tenants."},{"t":3278,"text":"It's really up to the proponent as to determine how"},{"t":3281,"text":"to incorporate existing tenants into the future proposal. Is existing"},{"t":3284,"text":"commercial tenants? Do you have any sense of how long"},{"t":3288,"text":"the currently existing commercial tenants have been leasing that space."},{"t":3293,"text":"I'm seeing, uh, no from the staff. Okay. That's it"},{"t":3296,"text":"for me. Thanks. Thank you. How's your Thompson. Thanks Mayor."},{"t":3301,"text":"I'll be brief. Sorry, Councillor Thompson. I misspoke. It should"},{"t":3304,"text":"be Councillor Loughton first and then answer Tonic. Thanks to"},{"t":3308,"text":"you, Marit. Yeah. I'm just going to briefly speak against"},{"t":3313,"text":"the recommendation to decline and simply because the issues that"},{"t":3317,"text":"have been outlined around that are addressed in the alternate"},{"t":3321,"text":"motion to review back for staff, um, for revisions. So"},{"t":3325,"text":"that includes, um, to revise the proposal for consistency with"},{"t":3329,"text":"city policy and applicable guidelines, including reducing the height and"},{"t":3334,"text":"density to approve alignment with the OCP and decap. So"},{"t":3337,"text":"the alternate motion, um, addresses the concerns to decline. So"},{"t":3344,"text":"that is my rationale for opposing this. Thank you. Thank"},{"t":3347,"text":"you. And the councillor Thompson. Thanks Mayor. I'll be even"},{"t":3350,"text":"briefer now. Just echo those comments and say that I"},{"t":3353,"text":"think it's incumbent on council to express what it actually"},{"t":3358,"text":"wants with applications. Um, and I've said this on a"},{"t":3362,"text":"couple of recent applications, uh, rather than just saying no."},{"t":3366,"text":"Thanks. Thank you, council. Anyone else on the motion? Did"},{"t":3369,"text":"a client councillor car donor? Uh, thanks very much, Mayor."},{"t":3373,"text":"On this one, I've been someone on the fence between"},{"t":3375,"text":"declining and the alternate motion. And I actually agree with"},{"t":3378,"text":"a lot of what was said by the mover and"},{"t":3380,"text":"seconder. And I know that there's been different messages coming"},{"t":3384,"text":"from around this table for the development community. And that's"},{"t":3388,"text":"just how it goes in a democracy of getting nine"},{"t":3389,"text":"different people with nine different points of view. But for"},{"t":3392,"text":"what it's worth, my point of view is what I"},{"t":3395,"text":"want to be seeing is the development community colouring inside"},{"t":3398,"text":"the lines. That is my message. Colour inside the lines."},{"t":3402,"text":"Prior to the new OCP and zoning regulation by law,"},{"t":3404,"text":"I was willing to be more flexible because I believed"},{"t":3408,"text":"that the OCP was out of date. But the OCP"},{"t":3411,"text":"is not out of date now. This is ROCP. I"},{"t":3414,"text":"voted for it. The majority of council voted for it."},{"t":3416,"text":"I voted for the new zoning regulation bylaw. Of course,"},{"t":3419,"text":"the new DCAP work is not done. That's ongoing. But"},{"t":3422,"text":"I'll likely support that as well because I'm, I trust"},{"t":3425,"text":"in the work of our staff. So for me, it's"},{"t":3429,"text":"not okay for us to approve an OCP and a"},{"t":3432,"text":"zoning regulation bylaw. Set her aside for something else. For"},{"t":3437,"text":"me, it's not on staff that this project took so"},{"t":3439,"text":"long. There's only so much you can do with a"},{"t":3441,"text":"proposal that's 222 percent above the height limit. That's not"},{"t":3444,"text":"staff's fault. So let's, let's, let's let's be a little"},{"t":3447,"text":"bit clear - eyed here. That said, I don't want"},{"t":3450,"text":"this just to die. I do think there's an opportunity"},{"t":3453,"text":"to do something really spectacular on this location. And that's"},{"t":3456,"text":"why I'm likely to support the alternate motion because the"},{"t":3458,"text":"ultimate motion essentially says go back and work with the"},{"t":3460,"text":"proponent. Bring this back into compliance with our rules and"},{"t":3464,"text":"regulations. I think if this were to be declined, that's"},{"t":3467,"text":"probably what would happen anyway. So for me, the alternate"},{"t":3469,"text":"motion is probably the one that's supportable. But I want"},{"t":3472,"text":"to make it clear, at least just speaking only for"},{"t":3474,"text":"myself. And that's all I can do. Is my message"},{"t":3478,"text":"for the development community for the next six months is"},{"t":3481,"text":"going to be colour inside the lines. And I want"},{"t":3483,"text":"to see proposals that align with the DCAP, the align"},{"t":3487,"text":"with the OCP that aligned with the zoning regulation by"},{"t":3490,"text":"- law that I stand behind. Thanks, Mayor. Thank you"},{"t":3493,"text":"very much. Anybody else. Councillor Coleman. Thank you. Um, this"},{"t":3501,"text":"is always a conundrum. The applicant has gone through nine"},{"t":3506,"text":"years of trying to make something work here. Um, I"},{"t":3510,"text":"think the comments put forward by the mover in the"},{"t":3513,"text":"second are absolutely valid. But I don't wish to see"},{"t":3517,"text":"the application die. I think if we're going to choose"},{"t":3521,"text":"not to support this motion and go with the alternate,"},{"t":3524,"text":"it's also up to us to give some guidance to,"},{"t":3527,"text":"um, staff of what we might expect that to look"},{"t":3530,"text":"like. Let's start with the design of the tall building,"},{"t":3536,"text":"the 27, it's building two. It's the 27 stories. I"},{"t":3539,"text":"love the design of it. I think it's a great"},{"t":3540,"text":"looking building. I think it's too tall. Um, and I"},{"t":3546,"text":"think that that's one of the things that staff will,"},{"t":3548,"text":"we will have to signal to staff that, um. We"},{"t":3551,"text":"like that if you agree with me, we like that"},{"t":3554,"text":"articulation, but it needs to be brought down to something"},{"t":3557,"text":"closer to the two other blocks that I referenced in"},{"t":3562,"text":"the decap. Either 15 or 20 stories. The adjacent blocks."},{"t":3567,"text":"Um, that will have an impact on the other two"},{"t":3569,"text":"buildings. Buildings one and three. I also think the comments"},{"t":3573,"text":"about the lowering of the parking, uh, supportable, because the,"},{"t":3581,"text":"um, transportation demand management amenities don't actually feel the gap"},{"t":3586,"text":"from my perspective. So I think you need to be"},{"t":3590,"text":"able to equilibrate that as you carry on with the"},{"t":3592,"text":"discussions. I don't wish to see this die. So I"},{"t":3595,"text":"will, uh, not support the motion to decline and will"},{"t":3599,"text":"have the discussion about the alternate. Thank you. Thank you"},{"t":3602,"text":"very much. Councillor Kim, you want to subsequent question. Comment?"},{"t":3606,"text":"Yeah. Another question. Thanks. Um, through the chair, uh, if,"},{"t":3610,"text":"if we were to go with the alternate motion, um,"},{"t":3613,"text":"and you were to go back to the applicant and"},{"t":3615,"text":"talk about particularly height. Keep that in mind. My big"},{"t":3622,"text":"concern is actually the longer term impact that you've raised"},{"t":3625,"text":"around, um, land speculation, because that will have the real"},{"t":3629,"text":"ripple effects that we're not seeing at the moment. What"},{"t":3634,"text":"changes to the design are at an acceptable threshold for"},{"t":3640,"text":"you to mitigate concerns around land speculation. Is that an"},{"t":3645,"text":"answer you can provide at this point. Ms. Wayne. Through"},{"t":3651,"text":"the moral, I'll attempt to provide some commentary around that."},{"t":3655,"text":"Um, I think the key thing that was mentioned in"},{"t":3657,"text":"the staff report was really consistency with policy is the"},{"t":3662,"text":"best pass forward for everyone, for staff for the development"},{"t":3666,"text":"community in terms of, um, predictable outcomes. Um, I don't"},{"t":3672,"text":"really think that we can comment on, um, yeah, how"},{"t":3676,"text":"that may impact, you know, the land value, but with"},{"t":3679,"text":"the alternate motion does include, um, provision of a landlift"},{"t":3682,"text":"analysis that would evaluate any proposed increase in density above"},{"t":3687,"text":"the policy. Okay. Um, again, bear with me. Systems thinker"},{"t":3694,"text":"here. And so with, um, other projects in the downtown"},{"t":3699,"text":"area that have, um, been approved outside of their variances."},{"t":3704,"text":"Were there any similar concerns about land speculation there too"},{"t":3707,"text":"then. Is Wayne. I point to you only because you"},{"t":3714,"text":"seem to be answering the land speculation questions. Feel free"},{"t":3720,"text":"to defer to your colleagues if you wish. Thank you"},{"t":3723,"text":"through the mayor. I think I may have to. I"},{"t":3725,"text":"think I believe, you know, there may have been some"},{"t":3728,"text":"commentary on taller buildings before in the past, but I"},{"t":3731,"text":"think, um. For example, the Harris Green proposal was a"},{"t":3737,"text":"company with the landlift analysis as per City policy. And"},{"t":3744,"text":"that was probably one of the reasons why Stafford took"},{"t":3746,"text":"the approach to defer the height variances to a future"},{"t":3752,"text":"application. But ultimately, um, any application would follow the City"},{"t":3757,"text":"approved policy in regards to requiring landlift analysis, which is"},{"t":3761,"text":"where, which is where the experts come in. And they"},{"t":3764,"text":"often do attend some of the proposals for taller buildings"},{"t":3768,"text":"to provide more, um, uh, expertise on that matter. And"},{"t":3776,"text":"to be clear, that would be done with the alternative"},{"t":3781,"text":"motion as well. Yeah. Through the man, that's correct. Okay."},{"t":3784,"text":"Thank you. Thank you very much. Anybody else. Okay. I"},{"t":3790,"text":"believe, uh, everyone that wishes to speak on this has"},{"t":3792,"text":"done so. So it is properly on the floor. And"},{"t":3795,"text":"that is the staff recommendation to decline this rezoning application."},{"t":3799,"text":"All those in favor of declining. Councillor Hemmond and Councillor"},{"t":3803,"text":"Gardner in opposition to declining. Councillor Dell, Councillor Kim, Conselhocrania,"},{"t":3809,"text":"Councillor Loughton, myself, Councillor Coleman and Councillor Thompson. So that"},{"t":3812,"text":"is defeated. There is an alternate recommendation, which was included"},{"t":3816,"text":"in the report. I will signal to you that I"},{"t":3819,"text":"have an amendment to make to that, but I would"},{"t":3821,"text":"look for anyone else to move that particularly council dollar's"},{"t":3824,"text":"moving. I'm happy to second. Or do you, Councillor Dell."},{"t":3829,"text":"Um, before I speak to it, I think I can"},{"t":3831,"text":"just wait and let you do your amendment. Sure. Absolutely."},{"t":3834,"text":"I did send an amendment earlier to staff. If you'd"},{"t":3837,"text":"like to put that up on the screen, I'm happy"},{"t":3840,"text":"to move the amendment. And if someone's seconds it, we"},{"t":3842,"text":"can deal with that first and then deal with the"},{"t":3844,"text":"overall motion, if the amendment is passed or not. Staff"},{"t":3849,"text":"will wait for you to get that up."},{"t":3875,"text":"Uh, don't you love technology. That's part of it. Yep."},{"t":3884,"text":"There you go. That's the whole thing. So the amendment"},{"t":3887,"text":"is the addition of the word greater, which is in"},{"t":3891,"text":"bold and the deletion of the bolded language that has"},{"t":3894,"text":"a strike through. Is there a second over that amendment?"},{"t":3897,"text":"Councillor Thompson is seconding. So just on the amendment, I"},{"t":3902,"text":"was fascinating. I would just say that, uh, based on"},{"t":3904,"text":"the earlier conversations, obviously the assumption here is that I'm"},{"t":3908,"text":"supporting the alternative recommendation. Uh, I do think that, uh,"},{"t":3912,"text":"including the proposal for consistency limits the conversation with the"},{"t":3918,"text":"applicant too greatly, uh, and then including the word greater,"},{"t":3922,"text":"obviously aims us in the same direction that there is"},{"t":3924,"text":"greater consistency with the policies, uh, but that it need"},{"t":3927,"text":"not be exactly consistent with the policies. And can I"},{"t":3931,"text":"believe that allows us for a greater conversation. Removing the"},{"t":3935,"text":"structural language, including reduced the height and density to improve"},{"t":3937,"text":"alignment with the OCP and decap, I think is unnecessary"},{"t":3940,"text":"given that the previous sentence says greater consistency with city"},{"t":3944,"text":"policy and applicable guidelines. Uh, I think again, that that"},{"t":3949,"text":"conversation needs to be as open as possible. And therefore"},{"t":3952,"text":"including anything in particular that says this is the absolute"},{"t":3957,"text":"does not encourage us to have that broader conversation. Quite"},{"t":3960,"text":"comfortable with the rest of it. But I think either"},{"t":3963,"text":"adding that word and deleting that phrase, uh, creates the"},{"t":3966,"text":"greater opportunity for us to have a conversation with the"},{"t":3969,"text":"applicant to try and get closer to what I believe"},{"t":3972,"text":"most of council wants. Councillor Thompson, you second, did the"},{"t":3976,"text":"amendment anything to add. Thanks Mayor. Not much. Um, I,"},{"t":3980,"text":"I agree with all your comments there. I do think"},{"t":3983,"text":"that, uh, it's better to go into these conversations with,"},{"t":3987,"text":"uh, increased flexibility rather than restrictions. And, um, who knows"},{"t":3993,"text":"what the architects might come up with, uh, they might"},{"t":3996,"text":"come up with something that preserves the level of density,"},{"t":4000,"text":"uh, but meets other, um, policies better, uh, and I"},{"t":4004,"text":"wouldn't want to count that out. Uh, I wouldn't want"},{"t":4007,"text":"to eliminate housing effectively when we don't really have to."},{"t":4012,"text":"Thanks. Thank you. Just for staff, um, I believe that"},{"t":4017,"text":"there's a, under the complete land, there needs to be"},{"t":4019,"text":"a space. And the word missing from the original one,"},{"t":4022,"text":"which I believe should be complete a land, left analysis."},{"t":4026,"text":"I'm not going to suggest that requires an amendment. That's"},{"t":4028,"text":"just a grammatical, um, oversight. Thank you very much. So"},{"t":4032,"text":"on the amendment, the comments, councillor Loughton, Councillor Dell. Thanks."},{"t":4037,"text":"And through you, Mayor, I really like this because what"},{"t":4041,"text":"it does is gives flexibility, as you've mentioned, but also"},{"t":4046,"text":"vision. It creates the ability to blue sky a bit"},{"t":4051,"text":"more around this project that has so many positive things"},{"t":4054,"text":"going for it at a time when decap is in"},{"t":4058,"text":"flux. We need some kind of transition way of making"},{"t":4064,"text":"sure that proponents are able to dream a little within"},{"t":4071,"text":"the scope of their projects. And I just want to"},{"t":4074,"text":"add that this area, um, there's also the Christ church"},{"t":4080,"text":"cathedral project. And the potential project at the YMCA that"},{"t":4084,"text":"the whole area, um, there needs to be consideration around"},{"t":4089,"text":"how that it's looking as a group. And I think"},{"t":4092,"text":"this kind of helps to inform that. And I just,"},{"t":4096,"text":"I just want it to give a little bit of"},{"t":4098,"text":"freedom with also, you know, thinking about that entire area."},{"t":4104,"text":"And I'll comment a little bit more upon that in"},{"t":4107,"text":"my General comments, but for this amendment, um, I'm in"},{"t":4111,"text":"full support. Thank you, Councillor Dell on the amendment. Sure."},{"t":4115,"text":"I just had a question for you. Height and density,"},{"t":4117,"text":"I'm okay with. Um, I am interested in amendments to"},{"t":4120,"text":"do some of the tower separation, uh, that staff of"},{"t":4124,"text":"recommendation and some of the podium and tower. Are you"},{"t":4127,"text":"commenting on that at all? Or is that? No, my"},{"t":4131,"text":"intention here was just to remove any specificity on what"},{"t":4134,"text":"needed to be included in the conversation. Okay. So staff"},{"t":4139,"text":"completing that specific requirement, in my view, still provides the"},{"t":4142,"text":"opportunity for that requirement to come back to us. Absolutely."},{"t":4145,"text":"But it isn't a threshold that has to be met"},{"t":4148,"text":"before it comes back to us. Okay. Then, then I"},{"t":4151,"text":"can support this. Thank you very much. Councillor Caradon on"},{"t":4154,"text":"the amendment. Thanks Mayor. I do not support this amendment."},{"t":4159,"text":"And for me, it sort of feels like the declined"},{"t":4163,"text":"motion coming in through the back door because the height"},{"t":4166,"text":"and density are exactly what the issues are. Um, the"},{"t":4169,"text":"fact that it's 220 percent, 220 percent above those height"},{"t":4174,"text":"limits is the, is the problem. So if we erase"},{"t":4178,"text":"that clause, we're back to a sort of arms race"},{"t":4181,"text":"on height. And that's the issue that at least I"},{"t":4185,"text":"am trying to address. And is the reason I voted"},{"t":4188,"text":"against the 35 story building a couple of weeks ago"},{"t":4190,"text":"is that to reiterate my earlier point, if we were"},{"t":4193,"text":"unhappy with the provisions in the OCP and the zoning"},{"t":4195,"text":"regulation bylaw, then we should have approved different OCP into"},{"t":4198,"text":"different zoning regulation by a lot, but we didn't. We"},{"t":4200,"text":"approved the one that we approved. I'll just read two"},{"t":4202,"text":"of the bullets from the staff report on page two."},{"t":4205,"text":"Here's the second bullet. The proposal is inconsistent with some"},{"t":4209,"text":"aspects of the OCP's urban structure concept. For the downtown"},{"t":4213,"text":"core, which envisions an urban form with larger scale buildings"},{"t":4216,"text":"along blancher and Yates, which then taper off to the"},{"t":4219,"text":"edge of downtown core and to the smaller scale buildings"},{"t":4222,"text":"in the surrounding neighbourhoods beyond, such as the Fairfield neighbourhood"},{"t":4225,"text":"to the Southeast. And here's the fourth bullet. The proposal"},{"t":4228,"text":"for 27 story building in this location undermines the OCP"},{"t":4231,"text":"vision of a balanced city density pattern with projected residential"},{"t":4235,"text":"growth spread across the city instead of concentrating it within"},{"t":4238,"text":"the court. So if we were to approve this amendment,"},{"t":4242,"text":"we're in a sense sort of overruling those bullets that"},{"t":4246,"text":"acknowledge that the intention of our OCP is a taper"},{"t":4250,"text":"off heightened density as we move eastward from downtown. So"},{"t":4254,"text":"I don't want to have to tie Staff's hands because"},{"t":4257,"text":"if we erase this, they're not allowed to have a"},{"t":4258,"text":"conversation about heightened density, which is precisely the reason why"},{"t":4261,"text":"they've proposed to client. So for me, it's not good"},{"t":4265,"text":"enough to just say greater consistency. And maybe I'm sounding"},{"t":4269,"text":"overly cautious, but I want to act in alignment with"},{"t":4272,"text":"the policies that we just approve last year. And for"},{"t":4274,"text":"me, this is not it. Thank you, Councillor Thompson for"},{"t":4277,"text":"a second time. On the amendment. Thanks, Mayor. Yeah. I"},{"t":4281,"text":"just wanted to speak to those comments. Um, uh, removing"},{"t":4286,"text":"those words does not eliminate staff's ability to discuss heightened"},{"t":4293,"text":"density with the, uh, applicant. What it does is it"},{"t":4299,"text":"says you can discuss anything you want, including heightened density."},{"t":4305,"text":"But, um, you're not barred from coming back to us."},{"t":4308,"text":"Uh, if you haven't, uh, achieved something there. So, um,"},{"t":4312,"text":"I have to completely disagree with those, those remarks. I"},{"t":4317,"text":"think this is just about providing flexibility around the discussion."},{"t":4321,"text":"Um, and, uh, I would also note that, uh, the"},{"t":4326,"text":"decap is 15 years old. It isn't the thing that"},{"t":4329,"text":"we approved, uh, back when we, um, approved the OCP"},{"t":4335,"text":"and zoning regulation. Thanks. Thank you on the amendment. Councillor"},{"t":4338,"text":"Kim. Through the chair. Thanks. I, given that it's funny"},{"t":4344,"text":"how efficient some words can be. Just the word greater"},{"t":4348,"text":"manages to encapsulate everything, including heightened density. I can support"},{"t":4352,"text":"that. However, I do want to speak up at this"},{"t":4356,"text":"moment to signal that, um, I feel similarly about colouring"},{"t":4360,"text":"within lines. And while the conversation can be blue sky"},{"t":4366,"text":"and all of these things, um, I encourage creativity and"},{"t":4371,"text":"lateral thinking. And I hope that the applicant hears that."},{"t":4375,"text":"Thanks. Thank you very much. On the amendment. Councillor Coleman."},{"t":4379,"text":"It's funny, we talk about colouring within the lines and"},{"t":4382,"text":"following the OCP. I actually voted against the OCP. On"},{"t":4387,"text":"a procedural factor. When we first asked, this council asked,"},{"t":4393,"text":"Staff, how long it would take to do the OCP"},{"t":4394,"text":"properly. They said it would be a five year process."},{"t":4397,"text":"We said we want it back in three years. The"},{"t":4399,"text":"province interceded made it to and a quarter years. Um,"},{"t":4402,"text":"and staff did magnificent work. But the lines weren't particularly"},{"t":4408,"text":"clear in all instances. We then layer on top of"},{"t":4411,"text":"that the decap or in many cases local area plans."},{"t":4416,"text":"The OCP acts as the skeletal underpinning for the way"},{"t":4420,"text":"we want to build our city. Decap, um, local area"},{"t":4425,"text":"plans add the flesh. Because the lines weren't particularly clear"},{"t":4431,"text":"in all instances in the OCP. I'm not sure colouring"},{"t":4435,"text":"within the lines is a fair direction. I think actually"},{"t":4439,"text":"getting rid of this and saying greater consistency with what"},{"t":4441,"text":"we want. And I said earlier, um, I think it's"},{"t":4444,"text":"up to us to give some of those articulated things"},{"t":4447,"text":"we expect for me. It's height. And the parking or"},{"t":4451,"text":"the TDM measures. I think that's up to us. I'm"},{"t":4455,"text":"quite willing to support this because I think the greater"},{"t":4457,"text":"consistency actually does address a number of things where the"},{"t":4461,"text":"colouring book isn't complete at the moment. I think we"},{"t":4465,"text":"might have to get colouring books. There you go. Uh,"},{"t":4467,"text":"anyone else on the amendment, Councillor Hammond. Mayor, I think"},{"t":4474,"text":"you'd probably still be walking on all fours. If you"},{"t":4476,"text":"can't figure out if this amendment goes ahead, that that"},{"t":4480,"text":"is saying you come to us with anything you want"},{"t":4484,"text":"as high and as dense as you want. If I"},{"t":4487,"text":"can come to that conclusion, you know that when this"},{"t":4491,"text":"passes and it will pass this striking this out with"},{"t":4494,"text":"his amendment, uh, after all, your mantra is build, build,"},{"t":4498,"text":"build, you're consistent about that. But you will have developers"},{"t":4502,"text":"drooling over this. So we are being very deliberately of"},{"t":4506,"text":"anything in there that we're taken out. We're saying, don't"},{"t":4509,"text":"worry about the height and density. Oh, sure. We want"},{"t":4511,"text":"to make sure it's within other, other areas. But if"},{"t":4516,"text":"we want to talk about signals and what counsel is"},{"t":4519,"text":"saying when we deliberately remove the one aspect, which is"},{"t":4523,"text":"the worst part of this, it is saying do your"},{"t":4527,"text":"worst and they will. Thank you. Anyone else on the"},{"t":4532,"text":"amendment. Not seeing anyone else in the amendment. So all"},{"t":4536,"text":"those in favor of the amendment, which is the inclusion"},{"t":4538,"text":"of the word greater and the deletion of the bolded"},{"t":4541,"text":"language with the strike through all those in favor. Councillor"},{"t":4544,"text":"Dell, councillor Kim, councillor loughton, myself, councillor Coleman and Councillor"},{"t":4548,"text":"Thompson in opposition. Councillor Caradot, Councillor Hammond and Councillor Gardner."},{"t":4553,"text":"Noting three in opposition, that amendment is carried. So we'll"},{"t":4557,"text":"just let stuff clean that up. So that we know"},{"t":4561,"text":"what we're discussing. This is now the amended main motion."},{"t":4569,"text":"Uh, I will reserve comments on the main motion because"},{"t":4571,"text":"I was the secondary and I will turn back to"},{"t":4573,"text":"the mover, which is Councillor Dell. I'm sure. I'm happy"},{"t":4578,"text":"to speak in favor the alternative motion. This is probably"},{"t":4582,"text":"one of the biggest projects in the top five anyway"},{"t":4584,"text":"that's come to our council this term. It's kind of"},{"t":4586,"text":"up there with the Bayview and Harris green and capital"},{"t":4589,"text":"irons. It's a massive project that, um, I'm a bit"},{"t":4592,"text":"disappointed. I only heard about it six days ago and,"},{"t":4595,"text":"and we didn't have more time to consider this and"},{"t":4597,"text":"to hear about the background, um, it's a big decision"},{"t":4600,"text":"to make. And I'm just not comfortable rejecting this type"},{"t":4602,"text":"of investment in our city. For me, I'm actually, would"},{"t":4605,"text":"be fine largely moving this forward. The biggest consideration is"},{"t":4610,"text":"investment in our downtown, which I think many of us"},{"t":4612,"text":"have talked about, um, we're going to, we're going to"},{"t":4615,"text":"get a position where a lot of government workers and"},{"t":4618,"text":"why not are working from home. Downtown is short on"},{"t":4620,"text":"people. And we simply need residents downtown and any building"},{"t":4623,"text":"that's going to put people downtown, just a word, our"},{"t":4626,"text":"coffee shops to support our stores downtown, um, is, is"},{"t":4630,"text":"badly, badly needed. And I'm disappointed to hear how, how"},{"t":4634,"text":"harsh some of us are speaking on, on investment in"},{"t":4636,"text":"our downtown. And more people downtown, when that's exactly what"},{"t":4638,"text":"we need, um, I don't think workers work from home"},{"t":4642,"text":"workers are coming back. So this is the kind of"},{"t":4644,"text":"thing that's going to solve that problem. This can help"},{"t":4647,"text":"provide vitalize upper street, an area with a lot of"},{"t":4649,"text":"small businesses and needing more people. Um, and I think"},{"t":4653,"text":"by being too critical on these investments, we've risk losing"},{"t":4656,"text":"them. I've definitely am reading the news as we all"},{"t":4659,"text":"are. Developers who are getting, uh, grounded down by councils"},{"t":4663,"text":"or just going elsewhere. They're like, why would why would"},{"t":4665,"text":"we come to Victoria when we can go to Kelowna"},{"t":4667,"text":"and buy sites. Kelowna the tallest building is 42 stories."},{"t":4672,"text":"And here we're sort of talking like 27 is going"},{"t":4674,"text":"to be the end of our city, which has been"},{"t":4675,"text":"a bit of a theme, uh, in this city's history."},{"t":4678,"text":"27 is really not that tall compared to what other"},{"t":4681,"text":"places are doing. It's not going to destroy downtown. It's"},{"t":4684,"text":"not going to destroy your sight lines. Things will be"},{"t":4686,"text":"okay. I actually like the design. I actually saw the"},{"t":4689,"text":"design first before I read the report. And I went,"},{"t":4691,"text":"wow, that's awesome. What an awesome building. And then I"},{"t":4693,"text":"read the report and went, Oh, we're supposed to reject"},{"t":4695,"text":"it. Crap. Uh, I think the design's really beautiful compared"},{"t":4699,"text":"to what's there. If we think on what's on Fort"},{"t":4702,"text":"Street, sorry, on, um, on quadr street in between Fort"},{"t":4705,"text":"and Browden, I think it's just like big concrete wall."},{"t":4707,"text":"I've actually never interacted with that site at all. There's"},{"t":4709,"text":"a parking lot and in many ways, it's one of"},{"t":4712,"text":"the most unsightly areas kind of of the downtown course."},{"t":4716,"text":"This is a huge improvement. Um, I would appreciate some"},{"t":4719,"text":"work on the podiums and the separation. I do think"},{"t":4721,"text":"staffs recommendations for the podium tower. I think could improve"},{"t":4724,"text":"things a little bit and allow some of that heritage"},{"t":4727,"text":"context. So I like that. I like to tower separation."},{"t":4730,"text":"I think the design right now does have a bit"},{"t":4731,"text":"of a large wall feel, which I never completely appreciate."},{"t":4735,"text":"Maybe it could be done well. I don't know. I"},{"t":4738,"text":"would like to see more commercial tenants on the ground"},{"t":4741,"text":"floor just knowing this is going to be a really"},{"t":4743,"text":"active spot of our downtown, but that's fine. I mean,"},{"t":4747,"text":"there's been some talk about land speculation. My entire time"},{"t":4751,"text":"running for council has been people scolding me about land"},{"t":4754,"text":"speculation. I remember when missing middle and everyone said it's"},{"t":4756,"text":"going to double the price of land all across the"},{"t":4758,"text":"city. And it's going to destroy fair field with bulldozers."},{"t":4761,"text":"And of course what happened is the land price has"},{"t":4762,"text":"actually went down. Houses are cheaper now than before. And"},{"t":4766,"text":"when we were discussing the OCP of when came back"},{"t":4768,"text":"and said land speculation, the OCP everything's going to double."},{"t":4771,"text":"No one can afford everything. Developers are going to buy"},{"t":4773,"text":"it. Of course price has even went down further since"},{"t":4776,"text":"then. So I'm not quite sure how long we're going"},{"t":4778,"text":"to keep talking about the sphere of land speculation. When"},{"t":4781,"text":"in my time it just hasn't happened here. And it's"},{"t":4784,"text":"that balance between how do we approve homes for people,"},{"t":4787,"text":"which we need in war homes. And there obviously will"},{"t":4790,"text":"be a little speculation, but is it enough to reject"},{"t":4793,"text":"buildings that are going to be adding to downtown? And"},{"t":4796,"text":"maybe it's just a necessary evil. I don't know. Um,"},{"t":4798,"text":"but more so I just want to make sure that"},{"t":4801,"text":"this is moving forward. So I think I want to"},{"t":4803,"text":"give a signal to the developer that I would like"},{"t":4805,"text":"to see this project in the city. I think it's"},{"t":4807,"text":"going to be a huge addition to Ford Street and"},{"t":4809,"text":"quadrice street in that Harris Green neighbourhood. Um, I love"},{"t":4812,"text":"the aspect of the senior's housing. And I think it's"},{"t":4815,"text":"going to be a wonderful spot for, for seniors to,"},{"t":4817,"text":"to live with the church there and beaconhill just down"},{"t":4822,"text":"the road and great walkability and whatnot. So I'm hoping"},{"t":4825,"text":"we can send this forward today. And I would hope"},{"t":4827,"text":"that staff can, you know, work with the applicant in"},{"t":4831,"text":"good faith. And I would love to see something back"},{"t":4833,"text":"before the end of council's term on this. Thank you,"},{"t":4837,"text":"councillor. Uh, I did take the opportunity to second that"},{"t":4841,"text":"I will be brief. Uh, I'm not going to comment"},{"t":4845,"text":"particularly on anything that I would like to see here"},{"t":4847,"text":"because my purpose in actually deleting the specific reference to"},{"t":4852,"text":"height and density was to allow there to be a"},{"t":4854,"text":"very far - ranging conversation with the applicant. Uh, I"},{"t":4857,"text":"think the applicant has heard not just today, but over"},{"t":4861,"text":"many years, comments from council and public about what might"},{"t":4865,"text":"be preferred at this location. And so I'm content to"},{"t":4870,"text":"support this in the General Terms that it has. And"},{"t":4874,"text":"I believe that it's important for us to signal that"},{"t":4878,"text":"there is an appetite for the majority of council for"},{"t":4880,"text":"something to be here. Uh, that it should be a"},{"t":4882,"text":"landmark and that the lot more conversation to have. My"},{"t":4886,"text":"only real hope is that it does not take a"},{"t":4889,"text":"very long time. Uh, I have been here through the"},{"t":4892,"text":"length of this conversation for nine years. And at different"},{"t":4896,"text":"times, um, councils have directed staff who have then acted"},{"t":4900,"text":"on council direction to do different things with a design."},{"t":4905,"text":"It is my recollection that it was in fact council's"},{"t":4908,"text":"direction that they were unhappy with a smaller building that"},{"t":4911,"text":"actually informed the applicant's decision to pull the application and"},{"t":4916,"text":"look to something taller. That may or may not be"},{"t":4919,"text":"the current council's position, but I think it's important for"},{"t":4921,"text":"us to remember that there have been several councils who"},{"t":4925,"text":"have given perhaps different directions over the years about what"},{"t":4928,"text":"should be here, but it is consistently always been build"},{"t":4931,"text":"something and build something notable. So I urge staff and"},{"t":4936,"text":"the applicant to work quickly together so that something can"},{"t":4939,"text":"finally come forward for this. On the main motion, Councillor"},{"t":4944,"text":"Loughton, Councillor Gardner. Thanks and through you, Mayor. I want"},{"t":4950,"text":"to echo those comments. This project, the biggest issue for"},{"t":4953,"text":"me here is that this project has been in the"},{"t":4955,"text":"pipeline for almost a decade. And in many ways, it's"},{"t":4959,"text":"a visionary project. And it needs to come to fruition,"},{"t":4964,"text":"in my opinion, as quickly as possible. So I hope"},{"t":4967,"text":"that, um, the conversations that happen don't take a long"},{"t":4972,"text":"time. I hope this can be moved forward. Um, as"},{"t":4978,"text":"quickly as possible. There is so much going on here"},{"t":4981,"text":"that is good for the community. The seniors housing with"},{"t":4986,"text":"14 affordable units. I will note that in the last"},{"t":4992,"text":"point in time count for greater Victoria, So anything we"},{"t":5000,"text":"can do for affordability around seniors is critical. I love"},{"t":5006,"text":"the idea of seniors housing with a daycare in it,"},{"t":5011,"text":"intergenerational living is really positive for everyone. And in particularly"},{"t":5016,"text":"for the mental health of senior citizens. And the family"},{"t":5023,"text":"housing policy is met. And the plaza also will be"},{"t":5027,"text":"a great addition to downtown in that area. So really"},{"t":5032,"text":"this is a vision for good living. And in many"},{"t":5034,"text":"ways it aligns with our objectives in the community safety"},{"t":5038,"text":"and well - being plan. My only other comment is,"},{"t":5047,"text":"although I understand that the vision of the amphitheater urban"},{"t":5052,"text":"structure, and I know we're not, um, decap is still"},{"t":5057,"text":"in the works, but there is also the secondary hair"},{"t":5061,"text":"screen skyline. So we have moved from beyond that. And"},{"t":5069,"text":"there is going to be a lot of activity in"},{"t":5071,"text":"this neighbourhood that I touched on with the, with the"},{"t":5074,"text":"amendment, Christ Church Cathedral Project is coming, the possibility of"},{"t":5078,"text":"the why, what, um, you know, the provincial, um, uh,"},{"t":5084,"text":"the courthouse land, if there happening there, there's, there's a"},{"t":5088,"text":"lot in flux going on here. And it's a complicated"},{"t":5093,"text":"time for this area. And that also makes it complicated"},{"t":5096,"text":"for in - stream projects. And so we need to"},{"t":5099,"text":"be cognizant of that and thoughtful about how we're going"},{"t":5104,"text":"to move forward with these projects. And this time. So"},{"t":5107,"text":"I just want to, I wanted to add that as"},{"t":5110,"text":"a note and just, um, finally, and I'm just going"},{"t":5114,"text":"to echo that I think the podium structure could be"},{"t":5117,"text":"some kind of solution here. If you're wanting something from"},{"t":5120,"text":"council, or for me, um, I think that could be"},{"t":5125,"text":"one way to distribute the density in a better way"},{"t":5129,"text":"and make this project work. So I hope that the"},{"t":5132,"text":"conversation's going forward between the proponent and staff are really"},{"t":5136,"text":"met with, you know, this, this is a, this is"},{"t":5139,"text":"a great visionary project. How are we going to make"},{"t":5141,"text":"this happen? How are we going to get to yes?"},{"t":5143,"text":"That's what I'd love to see happen. And I'm happy"},{"t":5146,"text":"to support the alternative motion. Thanks. Thank you. Before I"},{"t":5149,"text":"go to Councillor Gardner, are there other councillors who wish"},{"t":5153,"text":"to comment beyond Councillor Birdner. Yes. Okay. So I suspect"},{"t":5157,"text":"that there would, I'm going to suggest we take a"},{"t":5159,"text":"brief break because we have been sitting for an hour"},{"t":5161,"text":"and a half. And when we come back, we'll go"},{"t":5162,"text":"to Concert Gardner, Councillor Coleman and Councillor Thompson. So let's"},{"t":5165,"text":"return at 1040."},{"t":5187,"text":"Go ahead, please. Thank you, Mayor. My final comment. The"},{"t":5191,"text":"disregard for the OCP 2050 NDCAP comes clearly through with"},{"t":5196,"text":"this amended motion. Contrary assertions made earlier this morning. I"},{"t":5202,"text":"did state what I would need to see changed to"},{"t":5205,"text":"support this project. Changes in density. Going from 3. 1"},{"t":5209,"text":"to considering 6. 5 to one is unacceptable for me."},{"t":5214,"text":"Far too much for this site. We need reduced height"},{"t":5217,"text":"and massing. Perhaps 11 to 15 stories. Off that huge"},{"t":5222,"text":"tower. But we also really need respect for the heritage"},{"t":5226,"text":"context for that. That's critical. And as mentioned parking for"},{"t":5230,"text":"this dense mix - use complex is needed, far more"},{"t":5233,"text":"than suggested by the proponent. I had intended to support"},{"t":5238,"text":"the alternate motion. However, with the amendment to the alternate"},{"t":5242,"text":"motion, anything goes with height, density. I can't support this"},{"t":5247,"text":"version. It makes a farce of planning principles as articulated"},{"t":5252,"text":"in the OCP 2050. This is beyond build, build, build."},{"t":5259,"text":"It's castaway. The principles and values. Of the city. Thank"},{"t":5266,"text":"you, Mayor. Thank you very much. Up next is Councillor"},{"t":5269,"text":"Coleman. Thank you. Let's first talk about land speculation. It's"},{"t":5275,"text":"not actually germane to the discussion, but it's being infused"},{"t":5278,"text":"into this. The reality is land values have doubled in"},{"t":5284,"text":"worth every nine to 10 years for about 140 years"},{"t":5287,"text":"in this area. There will always be an escalation of"},{"t":5291,"text":"cost for land over time. It will, it's not a"},{"t":5295,"text":"straight line seven and a half percent a year, but"},{"t":5297,"text":"it varies. So it's always going to be part of"},{"t":5300,"text":"the equation as we want development and we see greater"},{"t":5303,"text":"density. So I put that aside for the moment. Um,"},{"t":5307,"text":"and talk about what we want from this particular site."},{"t":5313,"text":"And in some cases, this protector applicant. It's gone on"},{"t":5316,"text":"for nine years. It's very been very difficult discussion. I"},{"t":5319,"text":"suspect the landscape administratively has changed with OCPs and decaps"},{"t":5326,"text":"changing. Direction from this table. Not being entirely clear, I"},{"t":5331,"text":"suppose. I do think that what is being proposed here"},{"t":5335,"text":"is too tall. Um, I do think that there needs"},{"t":5339,"text":"to be some assessment of the TDM measures if you're"},{"t":5344,"text":"going to go with that parking reduction. I don't happen"},{"t":5346,"text":"to like the entire notion of the parking reduction. I"},{"t":5349,"text":"think it's too deep. Um, but if you're going to"},{"t":5351,"text":"go there, then the TDM measures must need to be"},{"t":5354,"text":"much higher. The area is, uh, adjacent to downtown and"},{"t":5360,"text":"high scores, high oil and walkability. It's also next to"},{"t":5362,"text":"a transit corridor. So those, there's some mitigating factors. I"},{"t":5365,"text":"still think they're taking out too much parking. Um, that"},{"t":5368,"text":"said, it's been a difficult task for our staff in"},{"t":5374,"text":"this. Because the landscape administratively has changed over time. And"},{"t":5380,"text":"we always ask the question, are you enablers or gatekeepers?"},{"t":5386,"text":"And in fact, staff and this table are both. We"},{"t":5389,"text":"do, we try and find that balancing point. And so"},{"t":5391,"text":"it means you're both, I want to see something happen"},{"t":5393,"text":"here. I think what's, well, I like the design of,"},{"t":5397,"text":"uh, building two, the 27 story building. I think it's"},{"t":5400,"text":"fabulous. I think the overall, uh, concept is great. But"},{"t":5405,"text":"it's too big and too dense. So the discussion that"},{"t":5409,"text":"we'll carry on between staff and the applicant will be"},{"t":5414,"text":"if they confined something that actually fits. And fits with"},{"t":5418,"text":"our perspective as it comes back. I've focused on two"},{"t":5422,"text":"areas that I think need to be, uh, addressed. If"},{"t":5427,"text":"it comes back and we're all still sitting here, um,"},{"t":5430,"text":"and get to make that decision. That said, I'm quite"},{"t":5434,"text":"willing to support this because I think it does put"},{"t":5436,"text":"the discussion back where it should be. It doesn't decline"},{"t":5439,"text":"the application. Which puts an end to it. And I"},{"t":5443,"text":"suspect that might see development go away for another decade,"},{"t":5447,"text":"which I don't think we want. So I'm quite willing"},{"t":5449,"text":"to support this. Thank you. Thank you, Councillor Thompson. Thanks"},{"t":5453,"text":"Mayor. I'm happy to support this. Um, I think it's"},{"t":5456,"text":"going to bring much needed, uh, rental housing for seniors"},{"t":5459,"text":"with some affordability. Uh, and much other housing. Uh, and"},{"t":5463,"text":"we need all the housing. As my colleagues have mentioned,"},{"t":5467,"text":"it's going to bring a plaza. It's going to bring"},{"t":5469,"text":"childcare. These are valuable things in our downtown. And as"},{"t":5474,"text":"downtown liaison, I speak with, um, downtown businesses all the"},{"t":5478,"text":"time. Many of them tell me that they're on a"},{"t":5481,"text":"knife edge. And I believe them. Work from home is"},{"t":5485,"text":"killing them. Uh, we don't have the number of office"},{"t":5489,"text":"workers downtown that we used to have. And the office"},{"t":5492,"text":"workers are the ones that are giving a big boost"},{"t":5497,"text":"to businesses, um, restaurants, cafes, retail, other businesses. So we"},{"t":5502,"text":"need people living downtown. And I would note that we"},{"t":5506,"text":"all received letters of support from the downtown Victoria business"},{"t":5511,"text":"association and from destination greater Victoria supporting this project going"},{"t":5516,"text":"ahead. Uh, I would point out that when the decap,"},{"t":5520,"text":"uh, was passed, which is the thing that this is"},{"t":5524,"text":"220 percent above, that was 15 years ago. That was"},{"t":5527,"text":"before the pandemic. That was before work from home, uh,"},{"t":5531,"text":"it was when office vacancy rates were very low. Uh,"},{"t":5535,"text":"those office vacancy rates are now rising. Uh, we expect"},{"t":5539,"text":"several hundred thousand square feet of office space to be"},{"t":5543,"text":"available, uh, over the next few years. Uh, but the"},{"t":5546,"text":"workers are already not here. Um, a lot of them"},{"t":5551,"text":"are just working from home. So we need more housing."},{"t":5555,"text":"We need more people downtown. Height. Has been a big"},{"t":5563,"text":"topic of discussion today. And it's a big focus for"},{"t":5565,"text":"some, but it is not a big focus for everyone."},{"t":5568,"text":"Uh, I know that that might be surprising to some"},{"t":5570,"text":"of the folks who, uh, who are very concerned about"},{"t":5573,"text":"height. To me, the apather concept of downtown makes sense"},{"t":5579,"text":"because, uh, you want to have people being able to"},{"t":5582,"text":"see the harbour, uh, and you want the view from"},{"t":5585,"text":"the harbour to be nice. But, um, the notion of"},{"t":5591,"text":"the skyline is much less compelling generally. In fact, I"},{"t":5599,"text":"asked AI how many people care about skylines. And it"},{"t":5605,"text":"described skyline interest as a niche hobby. I think the"},{"t":5611,"text":"average person cares a lot. About the housing shortage. But"},{"t":5616,"text":"I cannot believe that the average person is going to"},{"t":5619,"text":"walk on the other side of the harbour and say,"},{"t":5622,"text":"ooh, look that building is poking up above the others."},{"t":5625,"text":"That's bad. They are saying that the housing shortage is"},{"t":5628,"text":"bad, that it's terrible. When it comes to the context"},{"t":5633,"text":"of height for this building, uh, we've heard that the"},{"t":5637,"text":"view towers across the street is 19 stories. This council"},{"t":5642,"text":"approved a building right next to that at 23 stories."},{"t":5647,"text":"We approved Harris Green. We anticipated up to 32 stories."},{"t":5654,"text":"The cathedral development will come to us. It'll be tall."},{"t":5659,"text":"The YMCA building will eventually come to us. It'll be"},{"t":5663,"text":"tall. The context for this, the height context for this"},{"t":5666,"text":"project is not going to be, uh, one to two"},{"t":5670,"text":"story retail, uh, as, as we saw in some of"},{"t":5673,"text":"the images, the context in the future is going to"},{"t":5676,"text":"be tall buildings all around. So I don't think that"},{"t":5680,"text":"this, uh, if it comes to us with the, uh,"},{"t":5684,"text":"the FSR that's anticipated and the buildings may look different."},{"t":5688,"text":"The buildings may have a bigger podium that can absorb"},{"t":5692,"text":"some of the density. And they could have a different"},{"t":5696,"text":"arrangement of towers that provides more spacing between them. Um,"},{"t":5702,"text":"but in any event, it's going to fit into a"},{"t":5705,"text":"context that's fairly similar, much more similar to what's being"},{"t":5709,"text":"proposed here. I also agree that the commentary on land"},{"t":5715,"text":"speculation has been overblown for several years now. Uh, it"},{"t":5719,"text":"hasn't happened despite warnings that the sky would fall, uh,"},{"t":5723,"text":"when we approve missing middle and when we have approved"},{"t":5725,"text":"the OCP, it is a favored hobby horse for people"},{"t":5730,"text":"who oppose housing, uh, we just haven't seen it. And"},{"t":5734,"text":"I'm not worried particularly about this as the, uh, motion"},{"t":5739,"text":"notes we're going to get a land lift analysis, uh,"},{"t":5741,"text":"we're going to make sure that, uh, for the, uh,"},{"t":5745,"text":"for this property, there is a balance of other interests"},{"t":5751,"text":"in the OCP that are taken into account, uh, for"},{"t":5754,"text":"whatever land left there is on this project. So I'm"},{"t":5758,"text":"quite happy to see staff go ahead. And I'll just"},{"t":5763,"text":"point out, it says revised the proposal for greater consistency"},{"t":5766,"text":"with city policy and applicable guidelines. That doesn't say, uh,"},{"t":5771,"text":"do whatever you want. You know, everything goes. It clearly"},{"t":5775,"text":"doesn't say that. Uh, and I hope staff and hope"},{"t":5778,"text":"the applicant, uh, realise that. Thanks very much. Thank you,"},{"t":5783,"text":"councillor. Anyone else. On the main motion as amended. Not"},{"t":5789,"text":"seeing any other comments. It's been properly moved, amended and"},{"t":5794,"text":"is before us now for consideration. All those in favor."},{"t":5798,"text":"Councillor Dell. Councillor Kim. Councillor Cardonat. Councillor Loughton, myself, Councillor"},{"t":5802,"text":"Coleman and Councillor Thompson and opposition. Councillor Hammond and Councillor"},{"t":5805,"text":"Gardner. Noting to an opposition, that motion as amended is"},{"t":5809,"text":"adopted and that concludes that manner. Thank you very much,"},{"t":5812,"text":"staff. And thank you very much for those in the"},{"t":5814,"text":"gallery who are here for that matter. That moves us"},{"t":5817,"text":"on to item F2. This is with regard to the"},{"t":5820,"text":"development variance permit for 749 Douglas Street. And again, we'll"},{"t":5825,"text":"give staff an opportunity to get themselves settled and then"},{"t":5828,"text":"we'll turn it over to them for their presentation."},{"t":5847,"text":"And please do remind the public who you are. Once"},{"t":5850,"text":"you are settled."},{"t":5869,"text":"Good morning. My name is Brady Shields. I'm the Chief"},{"t":5871,"text":"Building and Plumbing Inspector. That means I get to call"},{"t":5874,"text":"you inspector. And I do recall the last time you"},{"t":5876,"text":"were here, do pull your mic in. You're quite soft"},{"t":5879,"text":"- spoken, which is lovely. But it was just a"},{"t":5883,"text":"chance to hear you better. Yes, thank you."},{"t":5894,"text":"Over to you."},{"t":5905,"text":"Sorry. About that. Good morning, Mayor and Council. This presentation"},{"t":5910,"text":"provides an overview of the Committee of the Whole report"},{"t":5913,"text":"regarding development variants. Permit application 00293 for 749 Douglas Street."},{"t":5920,"text":"It is regarding variances to the signed by - law"},{"t":5923,"text":"and staff are recommending that council approve the issuance of"},{"t":5926,"text":"the permit. Here we can see an aerial image of"},{"t":5932,"text":"the site fronting humble street to the north and Douglas"},{"t":5936,"text":"Street to the west. Uh, the application proposes the installation"},{"t":5940,"text":"of signage for the new TELUS Ocean office building and"},{"t":5944,"text":"request variances to the city signed by - law to"},{"t":5947,"text":"allow increased individual sign sizes, increased cumulative sign allowances and"},{"t":5952,"text":"signage above the second story on both frontages. The subject"},{"t":5960,"text":"property is located in the downtown buffer sign zone seen"},{"t":5964,"text":"in brown on the map here. It is bordered by"},{"t":5967,"text":"the old town sign zone scene in blue and the"},{"t":5969,"text":"arterial commercial sign zone in green. It is surrounded by"},{"t":5973,"text":"a number of residential and commercial buildings, including the Victoria"},{"t":5975,"text":"Conference Centre and press hotel and Double Tree Hotel. And"},{"t":5980,"text":"here you can see photos of the building under construction."},{"t":5988,"text":"Uh, this slide just outlines the legislative authority for processing"},{"t":5992,"text":"variances to the sign by law. And the project is"},{"t":5998,"text":"located within the General Urban Design Development Permit area and"},{"t":6003,"text":"is zone ZAOV, excuse me, Olympic View District. And I"},{"t":6007,"text":"will touch on the downtown core air design guidelines shortly."},{"t":6014,"text":"So here we can see the site plan for the"},{"t":6017,"text":"project. I know it is a bit small. Um, the"},{"t":6021,"text":"main variance proposed is for two large telesigns, one on"},{"t":6024,"text":"the Humboldt Street frontage at approximately the 11th floor and"},{"t":6029,"text":"one on the Douglas Street frontage at approximately the third"},{"t":6031,"text":"floor. These are shown in purple on this, uh, slide"},{"t":6035,"text":"here. To accommodate the large fascia signs. Variances are also"},{"t":6040,"text":"requested to increase the cumulative sign allowance on both frontages."},{"t":6046,"text":"Uh, this allows the streamlining of future applications for, um,"},{"t":6050,"text":"businesses and staff. So that individual tenants don't have to"},{"t":6053,"text":"come back through the sine variance process. And the last"},{"t":6057,"text":"variance, um, is for what is called TS3, a suspended"},{"t":6063,"text":"sign in the signed package. Um, and that is just"},{"t":6065,"text":"to increase the area of the sign and the dimensions."},{"t":6069,"text":"And that one is the very bottom, um, pink sign"},{"t":6072,"text":"on this at the corner of the building. And the"},{"t":6075,"text":"other two pink suspended signs will not require variances. Here"},{"t":6083,"text":"we can see, um, close up of the science proposed."},{"t":6087,"text":"So the telesfacier signs are approximately 15. 4 metres wide"},{"t":6091,"text":"and 2. 9 metres tall with a display area of"},{"t":6093,"text":"roughly 45 metre squared, which exceeds the 4. 5 metre"},{"t":6097,"text":"squared permitted in the downtown buffer sign zone. The suspended"},{"t":6101,"text":"sign TS3 is proposed to be 2. 3 metres wide"},{"t":6105,"text":"by 0. 72 metres tall. And this succeeds the maximum"},{"t":6108,"text":"of 0. 55 metre squared in that, um, sine zone,"},{"t":6112,"text":"as well as the General Restriction to a vertical dimension"},{"t":6116,"text":"of 0. 3 metres. Just a note for the suspended"},{"t":6122,"text":"sign. It will still be well over the 2. 4"},{"t":6125,"text":"3 metre minimum clearance below the sign. So the 3."},{"t":6128,"text":"98 metres from the ground to the bottom of the"},{"t":6131,"text":"sign. So there should be sufficient clearance for safe passage."},{"t":6137,"text":"Um, here we can see the Southern elevation with the,"},{"t":6141,"text":"uh, TS3 suspended sign in pink down at the bottom"},{"t":6144,"text":"there. And here we have the West elevation on Douglas"},{"t":6152,"text":"Street. So the downtown core aeroplane sets an expectation that"},{"t":6157,"text":"signage be limited in size number and location so that"},{"t":6160,"text":"it doesn't detract from billing design or create visual clutter."},{"t":6164,"text":"In particular, signage on upper stories is generally discouraged. In"},{"t":6168,"text":"this case, uh, council previously considered the telesfacier signs during"},{"t":6172,"text":"earlier approvals of the project in 2020 and 2021 and"},{"t":6176,"text":"directed that signage on the west frontage, um, lowered. So"},{"t":6180,"text":"it wouldn't be visible above the Empress hotel. So the"},{"t":6183,"text":"current proposal reflects that direction. Um, with the sign scene"},{"t":6188,"text":"here in purple around the third floor. So it's no"},{"t":6190,"text":"longer, uh, visible from the harbour above the Empress hotel."},{"t":6195,"text":"However, under the sign by law, that location still requires"},{"t":6198,"text":"a variance in this particular sign zone. And here we"},{"t":6204,"text":"can see the proposed sign for the humbolt Street near"},{"t":6207,"text":"the 11th Story. And so while upper story signage is"},{"t":6211,"text":"typically discouraged, um, there has been some precedent for exceptions"},{"t":6216,"text":"for major corporate headquarters and hotels in the downtown area."},{"t":6220,"text":"In this context, the proposed variances are considered to balance"},{"t":6224,"text":"support for significant employment opportunity in downtown while still respecting"},{"t":6228,"text":"the broader urban design objectives and the character of the"},{"t":6231,"text":"inner harbour. This slide just shows us some examples of"},{"t":6239,"text":"existing, um, buildings with upper story signage downtown. So the"},{"t":6244,"text":"bottom two here are two hotels adjacent to the site"},{"t":6247,"text":"in the same downtown buffer sign zone. It is kind"},{"t":6250,"text":"of difficult to see the signs there, but they do"},{"t":6252,"text":"have their hotel signs at the top. And the top"},{"t":6256,"text":"two photos are of the CIBC and TD bank towers"},{"t":6261,"text":"further up Douglas Street. And these are in the Archeo"},{"t":6263,"text":"commercial sign zone. So they don't actually have a restriction"},{"t":6266,"text":"under the sign by law on the placement of the"},{"t":6269,"text":"signs. And here we have some renderings of the completed"},{"t":6278,"text":"building showing the new signs as well as a blow"},{"t":6280,"text":"up of the ground floor elevation. And you can see"},{"t":6282,"text":"TS3 that proposed suspended sign there. Um, so in conclusion,"},{"t":6288,"text":"the development variants permit considers the insulation of signage for"},{"t":6291,"text":"the new commercial office building at 749 Douglas Street. The"},{"t":6295,"text":"request variances relate primarily to exceeding the maximum individual size"},{"t":6300,"text":"and cumulative sign allowances as well as the location of"},{"t":6303,"text":"signage in the downtown buffer sign zone. The proposal reflects"},{"t":6307,"text":"the scale and roll of the building while maintaining a"},{"t":6310,"text":"coordinated controlled approach to signage on both street frontages. Although"},{"t":6314,"text":"the proposal exceeds typical sign size and location limits, these"},{"t":6320,"text":"elements were previously considered as part of the building's design"},{"t":6323,"text":"and have been refined to address previous counsel direction and"},{"t":6326,"text":"policy intent. Overall, the variances support downtown economic objectives, excuse"},{"t":6331,"text":"me, are appropriate to the site context and will help"},{"t":6334,"text":"reduce future variants requests for businesses by establishing a clear"},{"t":6338,"text":"framework for tendon signage. I'm open for questions. Thank you."},{"t":6345,"text":"Thank you, Inspector Shields. Any questions. Kim. Uh, through the"},{"t":6354,"text":"chair. Thank you for this. If the sign were to"},{"t":6358,"text":"be updated should tell us undergo branding refresh. Does this"},{"t":6363,"text":"need to come back to us. Through the mayor, typically"},{"t":6367,"text":"know if it is the same size, we would typically"},{"t":6370,"text":"process them as what we call a face change through"},{"t":6373,"text":"a normal sign permit. Um, application. What do you mean"},{"t":6377,"text":"by same size? You mean same square area? Yes. Okay."},{"t":6381,"text":"Surface area. Okay. Okay. Thanks. Thank you. The other questions."},{"t":6387,"text":"You're looking. Just a question of clarity. So this also"},{"t":6395,"text":"is a permit for whatever commercial businesses go in on"},{"t":6399,"text":"the ground floor for their sign. So they won't have"},{"t":6403,"text":"to come back for permitting for that. It covers signage"},{"t":6405,"text":"for the whole building with this through the mayor. Um,"},{"t":6409,"text":"this will help. It's won't provide the permits for them,"},{"t":6414,"text":"but this will provide sort of the framework for it."},{"t":6417,"text":"So we request the additional variance for the sign cumulative"},{"t":6421,"text":"sine allowance. So that basically we won't count the big"},{"t":6424,"text":"telescience towards that. So the individual businesses will come in"},{"t":6428,"text":"and apply for their own sign permits as they normally"},{"t":6431,"text":"would. So rather than each business tenant having to come"},{"t":6434,"text":"and then ask for additional, um, cumulative sign allowance through"},{"t":6438,"text":"a variance. We're hoping to approve that now. So we're"},{"t":6442,"text":"basically calculate how much lineage they would normally be allowed"},{"t":6444,"text":"under the sign bylaw. And then we've added the large"},{"t":6447,"text":"signs to that. Okay. So they would not need a"},{"t":6450,"text":"variant. So the process will just be a little bit"},{"t":6452,"text":"more. Yes. So they smoother for them. Yes. They'll come"},{"t":6455,"text":"through the normal sign variants. So we'll still review it"},{"t":6457,"text":"for the signed bylaw. The design guidelines and the actual"},{"t":6459,"text":"copy of the image or of the signs. Um, that's"},{"t":6463,"text":"also why the TS3 sign doesn't actually have any specific"},{"t":6466,"text":"logos or anything on it because the actual sign itself"},{"t":6470,"text":"will be approved through the signed permit. We're just looking"},{"t":6472,"text":"more at the area and the size, the variances to"},{"t":6475,"text":"the byla. Okay. Great. Thank you for that. Any other"},{"t":6478,"text":"questions. Not seeing any other questions. Some would like to"},{"t":6483,"text":"move the recommendation. Councillor Kim is moving. Councillor Coleman is"},{"t":6487,"text":"second. Councillor King, many comments. Council Coleman. I would only"},{"t":6492,"text":"comment that, uh, I recall when we had the conversation"},{"t":6495,"text":"originally about the giant Telesign that was on the west"},{"t":6498,"text":"facing side at the very top. And the images at"},{"t":6500,"text":"the time did indeed show that if you were in"},{"t":6503,"text":"the harbour, that's the first thing that you saw when"},{"t":6506,"text":"you looked towards the Empress as it was illuminated. So"},{"t":6509,"text":"I appreciate that that is not what we're discussing today."},{"t":6513,"text":"Happy to support this. Any comments? Yes. Councillor Thompson, go"},{"t":6516,"text":"ahead. Thanks Mayor. Yeah. I'll, I'll be brief. Thanks first"},{"t":6520,"text":"off for the, uh, the report and the presentation. I"},{"t":6522,"text":"will support the recommendation here. Um, I have to say"},{"t":6527,"text":"I have taken people by that building as it's gone"},{"t":6530,"text":"up. And people are wowed by it. They're very impressed"},{"t":6534,"text":"by the, um, the shape of it, the windows, the"},{"t":6538,"text":"little carvings in the window frames, uh, people are talking"},{"t":6542,"text":"about that it's beautiful. I hope the applicant is listening."},{"t":6546,"text":"I think that people are going to see a huge"},{"t":6549,"text":"corporate logo and branding slapped on the building and be"},{"t":6552,"text":"turned off. Honestly, uh, and it's possible that some tenants"},{"t":6556,"text":"aren't even going to like it. I think it's way"},{"t":6560,"text":"too big. Uh, that said, it's not my building. Um,"},{"t":6563,"text":"so I'm not going to oppose the staff recommendation, but"},{"t":6567,"text":"I hope the, uh, the applicant will consider the impression"},{"t":6570,"text":"that they will make, uh, on the public and on"},{"t":6574,"text":"tenants, uh, slapping a massive, uh, advertisement on a beautiful"},{"t":6579,"text":"building. Thanks. Thank you very much. Anybody else. Yeah. Councillor."},{"t":6586,"text":"Thanks through you, Mayor. I just, I want to add"},{"t":6589,"text":"on to the last comment. It's something I wasn't going"},{"t":6592,"text":"to mention it, but I did think about it when"},{"t":6594,"text":"I was looking at this application and just, it might"},{"t":6597,"text":"be worth tell us speaking with the artist, the indigenous"},{"t":6603,"text":"artist that did, because it's a gorgeous. It's an outstanding"},{"t":6606,"text":"piece of architecture. Let's be honest. Like we all should"},{"t":6610,"text":"be very, very proud that this, this building is in"},{"t":6613,"text":"our downtown, but it might be worth having some conversations"},{"t":6616,"text":"with the indigenous artists involved just to make sure that"},{"t":6619,"text":"it kind of aligns with the whole look and beauty"},{"t":6623,"text":"of the building. But again, um, I'm, I'm going to"},{"t":6627,"text":"vote in favor of this because it's not really my"},{"t":6630,"text":"business. It's just a suggestion, but I do do want"},{"t":6633,"text":"to note that it is an outstanding architectural achievement for"},{"t":6638,"text":"our city. And it's also an economic boon. It's going"},{"t":6642,"text":"to bring high quality tech jobs to Victoria. And we,"},{"t":6646,"text":"we really need the people right now. Like we already"},{"t":6649,"text":"have talked about this morning. We need people downtown. And"},{"t":6651,"text":"this is going to do that. And I just want"},{"t":6653,"text":"to note that, um, I'm, I'm happy that Tell us"},{"t":6659,"text":"worked and listened to the last council about, um, making"},{"t":6662,"text":"sure that it didn't take away from the, uh, the"},{"t":6666,"text":"views of, of the Empress Hotel, which is, of course,"},{"t":6669,"text":"another, um, just most beautiful piece of architecture for our"},{"t":6674,"text":"city, too. So, um, so happy to support this. Thank"},{"t":6676,"text":"you very much. Anybody else. Yes, I'm sure that, uh,"},{"t":6683,"text":"those members of the previous council who voted in favor"},{"t":6686,"text":"of this or please to see finally coming to permission."},{"t":6690,"text":"It certainly includes me. With that. All those in favor."},{"t":6694,"text":"Does anyone opposed. That is unanimous? Thank you very much"},{"t":6697,"text":"for that inspector. Have a good day. And you too,"},{"t":6700,"text":"Mr. Markheart. All right. That takes us up to staff"},{"t":6703,"text":"reports, which there are two. The first one is with"},{"t":6707,"text":"regard to the General Local Election Preparations, Mr. Kingsley, I"},{"t":6711,"text":"believe this is you and your staff. Once again, please"},{"t":6717,"text":"make yourself comfortable. And when you're ready to go over"},{"t":6719,"text":"to you. I suggest that"},{"t":6729,"text":"is a terrifying thing to see on the screen."},{"t":6741,"text":"The drama. Mr. Kingsley. Thank you, Mayor. Good morning,"},{"t":6751,"text":"Council. Kurt Kingsley City Clerk Director of Legislative Services. I'm"},{"t":6756,"text":"joined by my colleague Sheldon Johnson, Director of Communication and"},{"t":6759,"text":"Engagement. And shortly, I also have a, oh, she's running"},{"t":6764,"text":"us now, Monica Federicowski, who's one of her policy analysts"},{"t":6767,"text":"and legislative services and who is a key part of"},{"t":6771,"text":"our team in planning elections. Mr. Kingsley, before you start,"},{"t":6774,"text":"may I just clarify that although there is much in"},{"t":6776,"text":"your report that the only decision council is making is"},{"t":6780,"text":"in fact appointing yourself and Ms. Roder and attendant staff"},{"t":6785,"text":"as the, both the CEO, the chief election officer and"},{"t":6789,"text":"the various deputies, is that correct? That's correct, Mayor. The"},{"t":6793,"text":"key decision point that we are requesting council consider today"},{"t":6796,"text":"is appointment of the chief election officer, the intention of"},{"t":6799,"text":"the presentation is just to give a brief quick overview"},{"t":6802,"text":"for council of what we have planned as well as,"},{"t":6805,"text":"uh, with particular focus on engagement activities that we understand"},{"t":6809,"text":"council anticipates for every election that we do. Very good."},{"t":6812,"text":"Thank you. Just wanted to clarify what our decision point"},{"t":6814,"text":"was. Over to you. Okay. Just quickly and briefly, as"},{"t":6821,"text":"I know most members of councillor are probably well aware,"},{"t":6824,"text":"um, the city is responsible for conducting the municipal election"},{"t":6828,"text":"as well as the school trustee election for school district"},{"t":6830,"text":"61 and our jurisdiction. And, uh, as the mayor asked"},{"t":6834,"text":"briefly quickly, uh, the key decision point in council's role"},{"t":6838,"text":"at this point, uh, that we are asking for is"},{"t":6840,"text":"to appoint the chief election officer, Deputy Chief election officers"},{"t":6844,"text":"who administer the election at arm's length. Elections are administered"},{"t":6849,"text":"in accordance. We do administer them accordance with provincial law"},{"t":6853,"text":"as well as our applicable bylaws and council policies that"},{"t":6855,"text":"are in place. And, uh, just for clarity as well"},{"t":6860,"text":"is in past elections. Elections BC still is has a"},{"t":6864,"text":"role to play in the campaign financing and advertising rules"},{"t":6867,"text":"that apply to the election under the local elections campaign"},{"t":6870,"text":"financing act. As for voting opportunities. We have a mix"},{"t":6878,"text":"that we are planning for a mix that we've done"},{"t":6879,"text":"very, very similar in past voting past elections in referenda."},{"t":6884,"text":"Uh, we are planning for four advanced voting opportunities, including"},{"t":6889,"text":"one at the University of Victoria, which, um, we understand"},{"t":6893,"text":"has been a past practice that we do as well"},{"t":6896,"text":"as the district of Sanich on the same day. We"},{"t":6898,"text":"also have plans for special voting opportunities again at participating"},{"t":6901,"text":"CARE facilities. Mail ballot voting as well will be done"},{"t":6906,"text":"in past elections. And General voting day, we are planning"},{"t":6909,"text":"for 12 voting locations across the city, selected in accordance"},{"t":6913,"text":"with councils. Policy guidelines. Voting operations for council's information involves"},{"t":6922,"text":"us recruiting over 200 election officials to support us in"},{"t":6926,"text":"all of our activities. We do plan again to use"},{"t":6928,"text":"the same voters list software for an electronic live updating"},{"t":6932,"text":"voters book that we've used in our past opportunities. We"},{"t":6935,"text":"also plan to use the same ballot tabulators and technology"},{"t":6938,"text":"that we've used in our most recent voting opportunities, as"},{"t":6942,"text":"well as the mix of accessible voting that we offer."},{"t":6946,"text":"With a slight enhancement this time around, in providing more"},{"t":6950,"text":"assistance to individuals who may need extra help or assistance"},{"t":6953,"text":"accessing our polling stations. And with that, I think I"},{"t":6958,"text":"will pass it over to, um, Mr. Johnson, who will"},{"t":6962,"text":"go over the engagement, the plan engagement enhancement activities for"},{"t":6966,"text":"the election. Thank you very much, Mr. Johnson. Good afternoon."},{"t":6970,"text":"Uh, again, Sheldon Johnson, director of communications and engagement for"},{"t":6973,"text":"the city. As with every election, we like to set"},{"t":6977,"text":"ourselves a stretch goal, uh, like in the previous referenda."},{"t":6982,"text":"We wanted to surpass the previous by - election turnout."},{"t":6985,"text":"And so with this, uh, this advertising plan and branding,"},{"t":6989,"text":"we want to surpass the last General Election, which was"},{"t":6992,"text":"a 43. 5 percent voter turnout. So our entire plan"},{"t":6998,"text":"provides a comprehensive campaign. We're going to have a mix"},{"t":7001,"text":"of print online radio advertising in addition to brand recognition"},{"t":7008,"text":"wherever we can get it, uh, because with the ultimate"},{"t":7010,"text":"goal of ensuring every resident knows where and when, uh,"},{"t":7015,"text":"they can vote. This includes, uh, print advertising. Uh, it"},{"t":7021,"text":"does cost more, but we do know that these are"},{"t":7024,"text":"opportunities where we can get information directly in front of"},{"t":7027,"text":"people at their homes, hopefully as well. So we have"},{"t":7029,"text":"11 ads planned in both the times colonists. And Vic"},{"t":7034,"text":"news. There will be postcard, uh, male dropped approximately three"},{"t":7041,"text":"weeks before the advanced voting day. And then we'll include"},{"t":7045,"text":"what's on the ballot, advanced voting information in general voting"},{"t":7049,"text":"day locations. And then we have a special edition of"},{"t":7051,"text":"the Connect newsletter. We'll also be mail dropped two weeks"},{"t":7055,"text":"before advanced voting and three weeks before for the General"},{"t":7059,"text":"Voting Day. In addition, we'll have transit ads such as"},{"t":7065,"text":"the ones you see here on 10 different buses for"},{"t":7070,"text":"a four week campaign. There'll be signage and postering throughout"},{"t":7073,"text":"the community, uh, in playground, City Hall, crystal pool fitness"},{"t":7079,"text":"centre, um, all again with that, uh, idea to really"},{"t":7083,"text":"create like a brand recognition across the city. We've updated"},{"t":7088,"text":"our, uh, I voted stickers along with the all popular"},{"t":7092,"text":"future voter, uh, as for those of us with young"},{"t":7095,"text":"children often have to take them along to, to vote."},{"t":7102,"text":"We will of course be doing a fair bit of"},{"t":7104,"text":"online advertising, getting people on their phones, uh, as well"},{"t":7108,"text":"as boosted Facebook events and voting day assets and five"},{"t":7115,"text":"different languages. Social media obviously allows us to do very"},{"t":7118,"text":"quick updates and reminders, but also target those, uh, low"},{"t":7122,"text":"voter demographics between 18 and 35. This is an example"},{"t":7130,"text":"of our, uh, times colonist homepage takeover. We did a"},{"t":7133,"text":"similar for the, uh, for the referendum as well. And"},{"t":7137,"text":"there'll be two of those for right before the General"},{"t":7142,"text":"Vowing Day. And then one day of. We're continuing our"},{"t":7148,"text":"extension into online advertising using Spotify ads as well as"},{"t":7151,"text":"Reddit ads. Hoping to capture some of those people on"},{"t":7156,"text":"their commute on their way into work and whatnot. And"},{"t":7162,"text":"then of course, uh, earn media using all of our"},{"t":7164,"text":"assets so we can. So we'll have obviously content on"},{"t":7167,"text":"our web page, our events calendar. There's an election video"},{"t":7170,"text":"that we do each time. Digital RE news as well"},{"t":7174,"text":"that goes straight directly into residents inboxes. And then the"},{"t":7180,"text":"City Hall slideshow that you see when you enter the"},{"t":7184,"text":"foyer, we'll also have information about, uh, voting. And then"},{"t":7190,"text":"probably the most fun part for some of our staff"},{"t":7192,"text":"is the colouring contest. Uh, that we do, uh, so"},{"t":7196,"text":"children ages 12 and under. It's just another way to"},{"t":7198,"text":"increase awareness of that, but also give, uh, three randomly"},{"t":7203,"text":"selected, uh, participants a chance to be mayor for a"},{"t":7206,"text":"day, uh, which I recall was quite fun for, for"},{"t":7209,"text":"you mayor, uh, and quite fun for all of our"},{"t":7211,"text":"stuff as well. Four different news releases will be released"},{"t":7218,"text":"one for nomination period for the candidates declared. And then"},{"t":7223,"text":"what you need to know to vote, uh, where and"},{"t":7226,"text":"when. And then obviously the preliminary results. I think all"},{"t":7230,"text":"of this shows that across all of our platforms, all"},{"t":7233,"text":"of our tools we're using, everything we have to have"},{"t":7235,"text":"a visible, very engaging, simple, uh, and the most important"},{"t":7240,"text":"part, driving that voter turnout. So everyone in the city"},{"t":7244,"text":"knows where and when to vote. And, uh, with that,"},{"t":7250,"text":"we're happy to take your questions. Thank you very much."},{"t":7253,"text":"You are correct, mayor for the day was one of"},{"t":7255,"text":"the most fun parts of this job this year, this"},{"t":7257,"text":"term. They were great kids. Let's start with questions. Questions"},{"t":7263,"text":"councillor caroradona, counselorman, councillor gardener. Uh, thanks Mayor. I have"},{"t":7266,"text":"really only one question, which does come up in the"},{"t":7268,"text":"staff report, which is about the long lines that we"},{"t":7270,"text":"experienced in 2022. So I just want to get a"},{"t":7275,"text":"better sense of what we could do to mitigate that."},{"t":7277,"text":"It doesn't mean that we're proposed to host additional voting"},{"t":7284,"text":"places, but I wonder if there is an opportunity to"},{"t":7288,"text":"message more assertively around early voting and get people to"},{"t":7291,"text":"come out and spread out the votes so that we're"},{"t":7294,"text":"not looking at long lines on election day. Mr. Kingsley?"},{"t":7298,"text":"Or other strategies you guys are thinking about? Um, through"},{"t":7301,"text":"you mayor, I think I'll start and then there's parts"},{"t":7303,"text":"of that question I think Mr. Johnson would be better"},{"t":7305,"text":"to answer. Um, council may recall that after every voting"},{"t":7310,"text":"opportunity, we do a lessons learned report and we bring"},{"t":7312,"text":"that to council, um, based on what we've determined and"},{"t":7316,"text":"what we learn about our experiences. The long lines that"},{"t":7319,"text":"we experienced in 2022, one of the key, a variety"},{"t":7323,"text":"of variables that we believe caused that one of which,"},{"t":7327,"text":"um, was one of the key ones, I should say"},{"t":7331,"text":"is the facility of the actual location in question. So"},{"t":7334,"text":"a good example is we did our advanced pools at"},{"t":7337,"text":"City Hall. And just due to the building, the structure"},{"t":7340,"text":"of the building and the uses and the space available"},{"t":7342,"text":"for us to use for that polling station. We just"},{"t":7344,"text":"learned that it's not a very good location and it"},{"t":7346,"text":"results in large cueing outside the building. So part of"},{"t":7351,"text":"our considerations and selecting polling stations now, one of the"},{"t":7354,"text":"key ones is actually really being mindful of the facility"},{"t":7357,"text":"itself. How big is it? What is its actual capacity?"},{"t":7360,"text":"How large could we scale it up? We learned in"},{"t":7364,"text":"2022 that there were some polling stations that actually were"},{"t":7366,"text":"very big that were underutilized because of the total number"},{"t":7370,"text":"that we'd selected and the amount of staff that were"},{"t":7373,"text":"available to us and how we had to assign them"},{"t":7375,"text":"to polling stations. So one of the key strategies we're"},{"t":7378,"text":"going to use just operationally is to try and scale"},{"t":7380,"text":"up locations more increase their capacity. Be more mindful of"},{"t":7384,"text":"the capacity of available at each point station. And then"},{"t":7388,"text":"additionally as noted in the report, we are doing as"},{"t":7391,"text":"a result of those lessons learned council authorized us to"},{"t":7394,"text":"do all advanced polls at the Victoria Conference Centre, which"},{"t":7397,"text":"has facilities just far bigger than what we had available"},{"t":7400,"text":"to us in 2022 for our advance poles, for example."},{"t":7404,"text":"And based on our past experiences using their facilities, we"},{"t":7406,"text":"don't anticipate extremely long lines at all. In past voting"},{"t":7411,"text":"opportunities, our engagement staff were very helpful to us in"},{"t":7415,"text":"getting the word around. And so I guess I will"},{"t":7417,"text":"pass that over to Mr. Johnson to see if you"},{"t":7420,"text":"can expand on that for council. Mr. Johnson. Thanks very"},{"t":7424,"text":"much and thanks for the question through the mayor. Uh,"},{"t":7426,"text":"yeah, we do have a number of opportunities outlined already."},{"t":7429,"text":"We can certainly circle back and make sure we've taken"},{"t":7432,"text":"advantage of all those to let people know in advance"},{"t":7435,"text":"of the advanced voting opportunities. Um, the other thing we've"},{"t":7439,"text":"done in the past is stayed in contact with our"},{"t":7442,"text":"ledge services, colleagues to find out if there are large"},{"t":7445,"text":"line day of. We can always do some social media"},{"t":7449,"text":"to recommend maybe people go to other locations that are"},{"t":7452,"text":"nearby. What's your credit on that suit? All right. Councillor"},{"t":7456,"text":"Hammond. Thanks Mayor. My question was about the long lines"},{"t":7461,"text":"as well. And, and so I'm pleased about the changes"},{"t":7465,"text":"that were recognised for the advanced pooling. There's two things"},{"t":7471,"text":"because one, when I asked you the Mr. Kingsley ahead"},{"t":7477,"text":"of time for this meeting and he said it out"},{"t":7479,"text":"to all councillors, you mentioned the advanced pole. Um, on"},{"t":7484,"text":"election day somewhere between 45 and 60 minutes at various"},{"t":7488,"text":"times. And so it's of course it's one thing to"},{"t":7492,"text":"want to get more people to come out. It's another"},{"t":7494,"text":"thing to not want to drive away people who have"},{"t":7496,"text":"made the effort to come out and they just don't"},{"t":7498,"text":"have 45 minutes or 60 minutes. I can appreciate the"},{"t":7501,"text":"social media, um, that might help people if they're into"},{"t":7504,"text":"that. And I remember when I voted eight years ago,"},{"t":7509,"text":"um, that there was something that I was trying to"},{"t":7510,"text":"find out where there was shorter lineups for. Is there"},{"t":7515,"text":"any opportunity actually at the polling stations if there are"},{"t":7521,"text":"lineups to actually put up a sign of some kind"},{"t":7524,"text":"or indicate to people that not far away, uh, that"},{"t":7530,"text":"has less lines. It presumably it'd have to be substantially"},{"t":7534,"text":"less lines. Otherwise, people will just make up the difference"},{"t":7537,"text":"in travelling there. Kingsley. Through you, Mayor, the long lines"},{"t":7544,"text":"are definitely something that was on our mind from 2022."},{"t":7547,"text":"We are going to be doing more things behind the"},{"t":7550,"text":"scenes to try and track and do a better job"},{"t":7552,"text":"of proactively tracking lineups and the amount of traffic that"},{"t":7558,"text":"we're getting and pulling stations. There are certainly those activities"},{"t":7562,"text":"that we're planning are in their early stages. So I"},{"t":7564,"text":"don't necessarily want to over commit to what we may"},{"t":7567,"text":"be able to deliver, but there is definitely opportunity for"},{"t":7569,"text":"us to try and explore using tactics similar to that"},{"t":7573,"text":"to try and, um, let get the word out and"},{"t":7576,"text":"let people know more if they're either out of pulling"},{"t":7577,"text":"station or as Mr. Johnson says in other means to"},{"t":7581,"text":"just let them know where the shorter lines are. If"},{"t":7584,"text":"in the event that we experience long lines, I did"},{"t":7588,"text":"want to, they'll flag just for counsel because I may"},{"t":7590,"text":"not have been as clear before a key part of"},{"t":7594,"text":"from our lessons learned about our selection of polling stations"},{"t":7597,"text":"and being very mindful of not only the total number"},{"t":7601,"text":"based on the staffing recruitment that we can secure, but"},{"t":7604,"text":"also our ability to scale them up. That's a key"},{"t":7606,"text":"difference. That wasn't there in 2022. So 2022, we had"},{"t":7611,"text":"polling stations that were very, very busy. And we just"},{"t":7614,"text":"unfortunately did not have the staff or ability to scale"},{"t":7617,"text":"up the operation to increase its capacity in the buildings"},{"t":7620,"text":"that were big enough to do so. So that's another"},{"t":7622,"text":"thing we're going to be doing as well for this"},{"t":7625,"text":"election where we have cautiously high hopes that we will"},{"t":7629,"text":"be able to actually process a higher number of people"},{"t":7631,"text":"at some of those key locations where there were size"},{"t":7634,"text":"and space available to us if we get the right"},{"t":7637,"text":"amount of staff that we need to also have an"},{"t":7640,"text":"impact as well on the total amount of time people"},{"t":7642,"text":"will experience visiting our polling stations. Thanks Mayor. And through"},{"t":7646,"text":"you then either in this reporter and the lessons learned,"},{"t":7651,"text":"I was reading where you said some of the difficulties"},{"t":7653,"text":"is that you just didn't have the staff. I'm guessing"},{"t":7656,"text":"that people, because these are, these are not contracts, but"},{"t":7661,"text":"these are temporary staffs. That right the city employees through"},{"t":7664,"text":"you mayor. That's correct. There's, there are some constraints that"},{"t":7667,"text":"we experience and they seem to vary depending on the"},{"t":7670,"text":"elections that we've done for reasons that we're not entirely"},{"t":7673,"text":"sure, but there are, there is a definite pool of"},{"t":7677,"text":"people locally that have a lot of experience and are"},{"t":7680,"text":"some of the key people that we rely on to"},{"t":7683,"text":"hire to help us do elections. And council may be"},{"t":7686,"text":"aware of course every other jurisdiction is having an election"},{"t":7689,"text":"at the exact same time during a General. And so"},{"t":7690,"text":"this can create constraints on the number that we were"},{"t":7693,"text":"able to recruit. In the last General Election, one of"},{"t":7701,"text":"the key lessons learned that we took from that was"},{"t":7703,"text":"really that relationship between picking a number of polling stations."},{"t":7709,"text":"And especially doing that before we finish our recruitment activities"},{"t":7713,"text":"because we found ourselves in a position very quickly that"},{"t":7715,"text":"we had committed to a certain number of polling stations,"},{"t":7718,"text":"but we had a finite number of staff. And so"},{"t":7720,"text":"that led to exacerbating that phenomenon that I was trying"},{"t":7724,"text":"to describe earlier where we seeoretically could scale up up"},{"t":7728,"text":"pulling station. That was very busy. There were at least"},{"t":7730,"text":"a couple that I visited where we could have easily"},{"t":7732,"text":"have done it at space wise, but we didn't have"},{"t":7734,"text":"the people. We just did not have enough people to"},{"t":7738,"text":"scale up from those locations without taking from others. Take"},{"t":7742,"text":"a number from others, which would have led to a"},{"t":7744,"text":"decline at longer late time, excuse me, at those locations."},{"t":7748,"text":"So it's kind of a mix of, of what we"},{"t":7752,"text":"experienced, but so far I can at least tell counsel"},{"t":7755,"text":"that we are optimistic that we will get the number"},{"t":7758,"text":"that we need for the pulling stations, the number of"},{"t":7761,"text":"polling stations that we're planning for. Thanks Mayor. And through"},{"t":7764,"text":"you, um, cause I know you have as much interest"},{"t":7767,"text":"in getting as, as many people as possible as any"},{"t":7771,"text":"candidate does. Because that is your goal to, to get"},{"t":7774,"text":"as many people as you can. But just so that"},{"t":7776,"text":"I have an understanding when you're saying you can sort"},{"t":7779,"text":"of adjust. Would that mean that within that building, you"},{"t":7784,"text":"could suddenly put up another polling station if you had"},{"t":7787,"text":"the staff? Or does it mean that all of that"},{"t":7790,"text":"adjustment would have to be done ahead of time in"},{"t":7793,"text":"anticipating the numbers? Seriously? Three mirror, we are actually planning"},{"t":7797,"text":"right now, it's a slight mix of those two tactics,"},{"t":7801,"text":"but more heavily weighted. And we just want to staff"},{"t":7804,"text":"them up at full capacity. So on election day, we"},{"t":7808,"text":"utilise the spaces that the pulling station spaces that we've"},{"t":7811,"text":"chosen and use them to their full capacity. So that's"},{"t":7813,"text":"really the goal. So that we have the full capacity"},{"t":7815,"text":"online so that it minimizes the amount that we have"},{"t":7817,"text":"to redeploy or shift around over the course of the"},{"t":7820,"text":"day because it can be very challenging on a busy"},{"t":7822,"text":"day to do that. That said, we do, we are"},{"t":7825,"text":"also planning to. Secure the number of staff needed and"},{"t":7829,"text":"to go about planning our operations in a way where"},{"t":7831,"text":"we can at least respond to unforeseen long lineups, if"},{"t":7835,"text":"any occur. We're trying to build in some capacity for"},{"t":7839,"text":"us to respond to that in real time and to"},{"t":7841,"text":"try and resource certain locations more or allocate them slightly"},{"t":7845,"text":"differently to try and deal with the problem in real"},{"t":7847,"text":"time, uh, for lack of a better way of describing"},{"t":7849,"text":"it. Thank you, Councillor Gardner. Thank you. Um, got a"},{"t":7856,"text":"lot of questions. I don't know how I'll get them"},{"t":7858,"text":"in the right order. So please bear with. Do we"},{"t":7861,"text":"have yet any dates for the advance, uh, voting. So"},{"t":7866,"text":"I believe that was in the presentation, Councillor Guardian. Was"},{"t":7869,"text":"the actual dates there? Yes. Uh, three of you, Mary."},{"t":7873,"text":"Yeah. We had the slide up earlier in the presentation,"},{"t":7875,"text":"but just for, uh, just for, uh, I have it"},{"t":7878,"text":"at my fingertips here. So October 7th. October 13th and"},{"t":7882,"text":"October 14th of the actual days. Would you pull up"},{"t":7885,"text":"the slide just so the public? Yeah, cause it wasn't"},{"t":7886,"text":"in the printed material, was it? That we had earlier."},{"t":7890,"text":"I mean. We may not have had it in the"},{"t":7895,"text":"report. No. Okay. That's what I, that's why I asked"},{"t":7897,"text":"it. So my questions are from more of the report"},{"t":7899,"text":"rather than flipping through these slides. So thank you. And"},{"t":7901,"text":"the slides will be posted today. Three mayor. We usually"},{"t":7906,"text":"have all the materials that are presented on a council"},{"t":7909,"text":"meeting up at least by, uh, before the end of"},{"t":7911,"text":"Friday. Okay. Thank you very much. Um, okay. That was"},{"t":7915,"text":"the first question. Um, one of your advanced polls is"},{"t":7918,"text":"outside the city. I don't know if that's a training"},{"t":7922,"text":"experience for some of the many people you're going to"},{"t":7924,"text":"be hiring. Or what is the cost of materials and"},{"t":7927,"text":"do you have to rent the space and, uh, staff"},{"t":7930,"text":"time, et cetera for one of the advanced voting outside"},{"t":7934,"text":"the city. And I think you politely, very nicely sent"},{"t":7939,"text":"me some of the data. It was quite low. It"},{"t":7941,"text":"seems to me two or three hundred. Who actually voted"},{"t":7944,"text":"there last time. Mr. Caesar? Um, three, Mayor, we need"},{"t":7948,"text":"a little bit of time to pull up exact numbers"},{"t":7950,"text":"if you're interested in exact numbers. But what I can,"},{"t":7953,"text":"what I can't say at this, at this time, is"},{"t":7955,"text":"it is one of our, uh, least expensive pulling locations."},{"t":7959,"text":"We share the costs 50 - 50 with the district"},{"t":7961,"text":"of Sanich. They do a polling station at the same"},{"t":7964,"text":"location at the same time, right next door. So we're"},{"t":7966,"text":"able to rent the same room and divide the room"},{"t":7968,"text":"in half. And we each occupy half. And in terms"},{"t":7971,"text":"of turnout, it's relatively low compared to other, um, advanced"},{"t":7976,"text":"pools that we do. So it's not a particularly high"},{"t":7978,"text":"turnout. But in terms of the cost that it costs"},{"t":7981,"text":"us to conduct that pulling station, the price per vote,"},{"t":7985,"text":"I guess we could say is relatively low, very low"},{"t":7987,"text":"compared to all the other opportunities that we're very much."},{"t":7991,"text":"Um, when will we get the map? Now I understand"},{"t":7995,"text":"you haven't got all the polling stations because you don't,"},{"t":7997,"text":"you want to have to do that balance of getting"},{"t":7999,"text":"staff, et cetera. I get that. When do you expect"},{"t":8001,"text":"we will get the maps of the polling places. Uh,"},{"t":8008,"text":"three mayor. I do have information on where they are"},{"t":8012,"text":"today of council wishes to see that today. I could"},{"t":8014,"text":"try bring that up and show you some of the"},{"t":8016,"text":"places that we're planning and what it looks like. In"},{"t":8018,"text":"terms of finalization, as I mentioned before, is a function"},{"t":8021,"text":"of how our recruitment goes. And the local government act"},{"t":8025,"text":"requires us to give formal notice of where and when"},{"t":8028,"text":"voting is to take place. And we will have that,"},{"t":8031,"text":"uh, secured and finalised before that we have to give"},{"t":8034,"text":"notice. So it's hard for me to say right now"},{"t":8036,"text":"because we're still conducting recruitment. But I can, I do"},{"t":8040,"text":"have information on the planned sites if you want more"},{"t":8043,"text":"information at this time. Yeah, I'd like to see the"},{"t":8044,"text":"map of that, even though I realise it's planned. And"},{"t":8046,"text":"what is the date that you must disclose by."},{"t":8060,"text":"I'm just having, uh, staff bring up the map that"},{"t":8062,"text":"we have for council. And if I, if you don't"},{"t":8065,"text":"mind through, you may or may circling back to the"},{"t":8066,"text":"question about the uvek poll, I have more precise information."},{"t":8069,"text":"The cost of the actual room for us, the renting"},{"t":8072,"text":"it for that poll is 575 dollars and the amount"},{"t":8076,"text":"of votes that we received in the last General Election"},{"t":8079,"text":"at that location was 375. There was an embedded question"},{"t":8085,"text":"in Councillor Gardner's previous question, which was with regard to"},{"t":8090,"text":"when you need to have this finalised as to location."},{"t":8097,"text":"Three, Mayor, we have to finalise it before the formal"},{"t":8099,"text":"legislative deadline for giving notice. When's update? That is, uh,"},{"t":8105,"text":"just give me one moment. I'll look up the precise"},{"t":8106,"text":"state for you."},{"t":8129,"text":"Uh, three, Mayor. Sorry. I have that date now the"},{"t":8132,"text":"exact date is September 17th. So we need to absolutely"},{"t":8136,"text":"finalise our locations before then because that's our first opportunity"},{"t":8138,"text":"for giving formal notice under the local government act of"},{"t":8141,"text":"where people can vote. So what we, this won't be"},{"t":8144,"text":"final. I should September 17th, perhaps. I mean, uh, three"},{"t":8148,"text":"mayor. We hope to have it finalised before then. We,"},{"t":8151,"text":"we have, we're working to secure all these locations. We"},{"t":8154,"text":"mostly have them all secured and it is more just"},{"t":8156,"text":"a question now of how our recruitment goes and making"},{"t":8159,"text":"sure that we get the staffing levels that we need"},{"t":8161,"text":"to, uh, operate the locations that we have planned and"},{"t":8164,"text":"operate them in the way we plan to do so."},{"t":8168,"text":"Okay. Um. How many locations do we have before? Like"},{"t":8172,"text":"I see the ones we have here now. And I'm"},{"t":8174,"text":"seeing gaps, but of course gaps don't mean that the"},{"t":8177,"text":"people living where the gaps. So I'm not necessarily concerned"},{"t":8179,"text":"about that. So how many did we have before. You're"},{"t":8187,"text":"in 2022? We had 13 total of 13 voting locations"},{"t":8192,"text":"throughout the city. So now we've eliminated two. We've made"},{"t":8197,"text":"a couple of changes through you, Mayor, just in terms"},{"t":8199,"text":"of, as I was mentioning before, the council actually as"},{"t":8203,"text":"a result of our lessons learned in 2022 past policy"},{"t":8206,"text":"guidelines to guide the chief election officer and selection amongst"},{"t":8209,"text":"other things in selection of polling stations. And so really"},{"t":8213,"text":"our selection of them is adhering to those guidelines as"},{"t":8217,"text":"many as possible when we, in choosing the precise locations,"},{"t":8220,"text":"one of the guidelines, of course, is geographic proximity, a"},{"t":8224,"text":"good reasonable spread across the city. But as I tried"},{"t":8226,"text":"to mention before, we're trying to be more mindful and"},{"t":8230,"text":"it is in the guidelines to be mindful of what"},{"t":8231,"text":"kind of facility does that location have to offer. And"},{"t":8234,"text":"so we're trying to balance as many of those variables"},{"t":8237,"text":"as we can to pick locations that we think will,"},{"t":8240,"text":"um, capture as many of the guidelines as possible. Yeah."},{"t":8243,"text":"Thank you. No, I was just looking at the jubilee"},{"t":8245,"text":"area, but of course realise a big chunk of that"},{"t":8246,"text":"is the hospital itself as opposed to a residential. Cause"},{"t":8251,"text":"that just looks like gaps, but I realised that may"},{"t":8253,"text":"not be reality. If you just look at a map."},{"t":8257,"text":"Okay. Other questions. Um, I found it kind of amusing."},{"t":8261,"text":"We just saw now that they, uh, mail - in"},{"t":8263,"text":"balance going to have prepaid postage. I guess that's just"},{"t":8267,"text":"for within Canada. Anyway, um, do we have any idea"},{"t":8274,"text":"when you, the mailing balance don't have the names of"},{"t":8277,"text":"the candidates on it or do they and what will"},{"t":8279,"text":"be, I've already people say, I'm going to be on"},{"t":8282,"text":"vacation. How do I get one? And I thought, Oh"},{"t":8283,"text":"my goodness. It's early for them to be thinking about"},{"t":8286,"text":"that. I keep saying you better have a million address"},{"t":8288,"text":"to receive something. So what is the deadlines or what"},{"t":8293,"text":"do you, what is the process really for mailing. Uh,"},{"t":8298,"text":"through you, Mayor. The question, um, council might be aware"},{"t":8305,"text":"of some constraints that we've experienced in the past at"},{"t":8307,"text":"all. I'll answer it as best I can. The process"},{"t":8309,"text":"for requesting mail ballot, we will have information on our"},{"t":8312,"text":"website. As well as an online portal for individuals to"},{"t":8316,"text":"essentially sign up for one and request that service. The"},{"t":8320,"text":"precise dates we're looking them up for right now. You"},{"t":8324,"text":"mean the date for one, it'll be posted."},{"t":8339,"text":"Yeah, apologies mayor for the pause. Um, we offer the"},{"t":8343,"text":"sign up for mail ballots as soon as we can."},{"t":8345,"text":"We offer far before the end of the nomination period."},{"t":8349,"text":"And when the, when the candidates will be known. So"},{"t":8351,"text":"individuals in the community can actually start asking us for,"},{"t":8354,"text":"uh, signing up for the male ballot service, uh, well"},{"t":8357,"text":"in advance. The ballot, if I remember that part of"},{"t":8360,"text":"your question, the ballot that I'm a male, uh, a"},{"t":8363,"text":"male ballot service we'll get is the exact same ballot"},{"t":8365,"text":"that is used in the election. It's identical. There is"},{"t":8367,"text":"no difference. It is the only difference is they either"},{"t":8370,"text":"pick it up at municipal hall, a city hall here,"},{"t":8373,"text":"or we mail it to them. And of course, they"},{"t":8375,"text":"have to mail it back to us, uh, before the"},{"t":8377,"text":"deadlines designated in the act. Okay. So I want to"},{"t":8382,"text":"make sure I captured all the, you'll have an email"},{"t":8384,"text":"address for that that they can. I shouldn't tell them"},{"t":8387,"text":"all to send it to Kurt Kingsley. Well, you certainly,"},{"t":8392,"text":"you certainly can if you wish to the mirror, what"},{"t":8394,"text":"we will, we will have more of a formal system"},{"t":8396,"text":"set up a portal where they can actually sign up"},{"t":8398,"text":"and request. And we design it that way on purpose"},{"t":8400,"text":"so that it gives them the fields they need to"},{"t":8402,"text":"give us all the information that we need to provide"},{"t":8404,"text":"them with the service with, without having to, uh, without"},{"t":8408,"text":"them having to liaise with us too much. Kings, glad"},{"t":8410,"text":"to hear about priority lines. And I recall when you"},{"t":8412,"text":"briefed us after the last election, we had that session"},{"t":8415,"text":"with you. And I know I raised one particular situation"},{"t":8418,"text":"where there was real problem. Well, there can be real"},{"t":8421,"text":"problems anywhere with a lot of elderly who just couldn't,"},{"t":8424,"text":"who were too frail to be able to stand there"},{"t":8426,"text":"for a long time. And you actually had a volunteer"},{"t":8428,"text":"came along, uh, who assisted at the time. Uh, and"},{"t":8432,"text":"fetch chairs, et cetera. So in some of these places"},{"t":8434,"text":"where you anticipate, perhaps that you might have very elderly"},{"t":8438,"text":"or frail people who may not be able to stand"},{"t":8441,"text":"for 20 minutes or a half an hour. Will there"},{"t":8444,"text":"be backup kind of seating somewhere or something. And I"},{"t":8448,"text":"realise you said there's going to be priority lines, which"},{"t":8449,"text":"is greatly. Through you, Mary, yes, that is part of"},{"t":8454,"text":"what we were, or what I was referring to when"},{"t":8458,"text":"we were trying to offer some more enhanced accessibility assistance"},{"t":8462,"text":"to individuals who need to access our polling stations. What"},{"t":8465,"text":"we're calling the priority line is a service that we"},{"t":8467,"text":"learned of from the City of Vancouver and they've done"},{"t":8469,"text":"it at least once. And this is for individuals, uh,"},{"t":8473,"text":"that may need more assistance and just cannot stand in"},{"t":8476,"text":"a line due to variety of factors and just need"},{"t":8480,"text":"to, they just need more help and faster service. So"},{"t":8483,"text":"we've learned of this from the City of Vancouver and"},{"t":8485,"text":"what we learned from the City Vancouver was this was"},{"t":8487,"text":"actually really successful. But we are doing it because to"},{"t":8492,"text":"respond to feedback that we did receive. We receive very"},{"t":8494,"text":"similar feedback that there were individuals that really experienced, um,"},{"t":8498,"text":"more difficulty than others, um, waiting for access to the"},{"t":8501,"text":"polling station. So we are going to try to have"},{"t":8503,"text":"things such as seeding. And of course, the priority lines."},{"t":8508,"text":"And we're going to train our, our staff a little"},{"t":8509,"text":"differently to try and handle those situations to help them"},{"t":8512,"text":"and assist them in a better way than we did"},{"t":8513,"text":"last time. Okay. Thank you. And just a couple more"},{"t":8516,"text":"questions. Page four and you had it in one of"},{"t":8519,"text":"your slides. I don't remember which slide. You had, um,"},{"t":8521,"text":"low vote demographics and demographics. And you showed age groups,"},{"t":8525,"text":"et cetera. Were those demographics from the 2022 election or"},{"t":8529,"text":"from the pool referendum. Mr. Johnson."},{"t":8539,"text":"Sorry. Can you repeat the question? Oh, on that page"},{"t":8542,"text":"four of the report where you gave demographics, uh, ones"},{"t":8548,"text":"who did not vote as much as you expected by"},{"t":8550,"text":"population base. That one, where those was a data or"},{"t":8553,"text":"were the information there. Was that what she obtained from"},{"t":8557,"text":"the 2022 election? Or was it obtained from the pool"},{"t":8561,"text":"referendum. Because we've seen a shift, I believe. I don't"},{"t":8565,"text":"have data, but. Through the mayor, it is from the"},{"t":8569,"text":"2022 General. Yeah. So do we have any demographics from"},{"t":8572,"text":"the pool referendum. Any demographics from the crystal pool referendum."},{"t":8580,"text":"Uh, through the mayor, not at my fingertips, but I"},{"t":8582,"text":"would have to, uh, confer with ledge sleeve sources staff"},{"t":8586,"text":"as they would have their compilation of voter information. Yeah."},{"t":8589,"text":"And the reason I'm asking is for my next question,"},{"t":8592,"text":"because I think we've seen a shift. And, um, I'm"},{"t":8594,"text":"quite worried about the radio station choices. Most people I"},{"t":8597,"text":"know listen to CBC or CFACs, for example. And they"},{"t":8601,"text":"have not been included, uh, in fact, there's two that"},{"t":8604,"text":"I, you know, a long people don't. So I'm very"},{"t":8608,"text":"concerned about that. And, um, is there not a reason"},{"t":8612,"text":"why we could not include CBC and CFACs. Mr. Kingsley"},{"t":8617,"text":"or Mr. Johnson. Through the mayor. There's, there's no reason"},{"t":8620,"text":"why we can't look at that. Absolutely. We have relationships"},{"t":8622,"text":"with all advertisers. So this would have been, uh, preliminary"},{"t":8626,"text":"scan of who we had opportunities with. So we can"},{"t":8628,"text":"certainly, uh, look at some other partners. Okay. And Mayor,"},{"t":8632,"text":"do I need a director or anything on that? Or"},{"t":8633,"text":"cause that's very important, I believe. Okay. So that's obtained."},{"t":8637,"text":"Okay. That's great. Thank you very much. I may have"},{"t":8639,"text":"some more questions, but that I think I've done a"},{"t":8641,"text":"lot now. Okay. So Councillor Loughton. Thanks and through you,"},{"t":8648,"text":"Mayor. Um, so the goal for this election is 2018,"},{"t":8653,"text":"the 2018 voter turnout, which is 43. 5. Can you"},{"t":8656,"text":"remind me what it was in 2022. Senator, Mr. Johnson"},{"t":8663,"text":"or Mr. Kingsley question? 2022 3 Marine percentage was roughly"},{"t":8669,"text":"37. 9, I believe. And is that broken out into"},{"t":8677,"text":"demographics. Exiling through you, Mayor. We do have some information"},{"t":8683,"text":"about that, but it's limited just due to, um, the"},{"t":8686,"text":"secrecy of the ballot and privacy aspects of it. So"},{"t":8690,"text":"I, we can try and provide some information, but it"},{"t":8693,"text":"is limited in the amount that we do have. Okay."},{"t":8696,"text":"In the reason for that question is just, for example,"},{"t":8700,"text":"the youth vote is typically low. And I'm wondering if"},{"t":8704,"text":"there's anything we can, and we can do to encourage"},{"t":8707,"text":"youth voting. Let's just use that as the prime example"},{"t":8710,"text":"here. Mr. Android, uh, it is why we have chosen"},{"t":8716,"text":"some of the advertising partners that we do have, like,"},{"t":8719,"text":"like Reddit and Spotify, um, but certainly I'm more than"},{"t":8724,"text":"happy to go back to my team and just see"},{"t":8725,"text":"if we have any other partners that we can use"},{"t":8727,"text":"that would target that youth vote. It is certainly, like"},{"t":8731,"text":"I said, why we have made some choices the way"},{"t":8734,"text":"we have, uh, but, uh, you'll see in the cost"},{"t":8738,"text":"breakdown within the report digital advertising is quite a bit"},{"t":8742,"text":"more affordable than print. And it is those digital assets"},{"t":8746,"text":"that we know that we're going to get those lower,"},{"t":8748,"text":"uh, voter turnout. So definitely having to look at that."},{"t":8753,"text":"Oh yeah. I think, I think that would be, um,"},{"t":8758,"text":"really a good use of time just because it was"},{"t":8760,"text":"300 and some odd votes at YVC. Like it's just"},{"t":8762,"text":"not enough. You know? Thanks for the report. Appreciate it."},{"t":8766,"text":"Thank you very much. Councillor Kim. Uh, thanks to the"},{"t":8772,"text":"chair. Is there an option for people to call in"},{"t":8775,"text":"to ask for a mail - in ballot. She Kingsley."},{"t":8781,"text":"Uh, three mirror legislative services staff do assist individuals when"},{"t":8786,"text":"they experience any trouble, um, requesting a male ballot. So"},{"t":8789,"text":"we're always there to assist anyone to help them find"},{"t":8793,"text":"the way the best way for them to vote. Um."},{"t":8798,"text":"Is it possible to consider making these spaces a little"},{"t":8801,"text":"more fun, like colouring books for the kids? Things that"},{"t":8805,"text":"will keep the kids entertained. And bring more families out."},{"t":8811,"text":"Mr. Kingsley. Mr. Johnson. I can start and through the"},{"t":8817,"text":"mayor. So we do have the colouring contest that we're"},{"t":8819,"text":"going to have for, but we also have some recent,"},{"t":8823,"text":"um, uh, other colouring things that we've developed for kids."},{"t":8827,"text":"Plus, um, when we did our OCP engagements, we had"},{"t":8831,"text":"kids tables with colouring and blocks and things like that."},{"t":8835,"text":"Definitely more than happy to look at some options for"},{"t":8837,"text":"some locations. Okay. Thanks. Um, yeah, I was particularly noticing"},{"t":8842,"text":"some locations are right next to playgrounds. And that's great,"},{"t":8845,"text":"but not all of them do. With respect to the"},{"t":8849,"text":"dynamic transit ads on the buses, um, I used to"},{"t":8853,"text":"work somewhere where we did put ads on buses and"},{"t":8856,"text":"the thing is you don't control where they go, right?"},{"t":8858,"text":"The roots are regional. Have you considered partnering with neighbouring"},{"t":8862,"text":"municipalities to split the cost of these ads to make"},{"t":8865,"text":"it like a regional, just know that you're voting on"},{"t":8867,"text":"this day. Mr. Johnson. Uh, through the mayor, uh, we"},{"t":8872,"text":"have done that with, uh, some print ads that we"},{"t":8875,"text":"do, um, for a number of elections back where we"},{"t":8878,"text":"partner with CRD as well as our partner municipalities. We"},{"t":8883,"text":"have not looked at that for a transit, but it"},{"t":8886,"text":"might be a good thing for us to discuss with"},{"t":8888,"text":"a couple of our partners. We have a good relationship"},{"t":8891,"text":"with trans and we've booked a number of ads with"},{"t":8893,"text":"them over the years. And so I think we've just"},{"t":8895,"text":"leveraged that relationship thus far. And why not bust shelter"},{"t":8900,"text":"ads. Mr. Johnson. Uh, we are in the early stages"},{"t":8905,"text":"of, um, a new agreement with bus shelters. And so"},{"t":8910,"text":"we will be looking at that fairly soon actually. Uh,"},{"t":8914,"text":"so some more updates on that to come. Okay. Um,"},{"t":8918,"text":"okay. And speaking of youth, uh, YouTube, TikTok, Instagram, all"},{"t":8924,"text":"the things the Gen Zs are using, uh, I didn't"},{"t":8927,"text":"see listed necessarily. That said, I don't know their reach"},{"t":8931,"text":"with the youth, but has that been considered? Why not?"},{"t":8935,"text":"Mr. Johnson. Uh, three of the mayor, we, we always"},{"t":8940,"text":"look at Instagram is a very popular one for the"},{"t":8943,"text":"youth, uh, as well as those Reddit and Spotify ones"},{"t":8946,"text":"as well. Um, I don't believe we've looked at YouTube"},{"t":8949,"text":"for this round, uh, but Instagram for sure, but we"},{"t":8952,"text":"can definitely look at, uh, YouTube ads as well. Um."},{"t":8960,"text":"Braille ballots. Kingsley, is that possible. Uh, three mayor. Just"},{"t":8970,"text":"want to make sure I heard correctly. Braille ballots. Braille"},{"t":8974,"text":"ballots. Bellots printed with braille. O braille. Oh, I'm sorry."},{"t":8980,"text":"I missed you. Um. We don't currently have that to"},{"t":8986,"text":"my knowledge. That, sorry, that is partly because"},{"t":8996,"text":"we have an accessible voting machine. Always during any advanced"},{"t":9000,"text":"poll. Or, uh, on election day. So we always have"},{"t":9003,"text":"at least one. And it can enable someone who is"},{"t":9007,"text":"either fully, has full site impairment or full hearing impairment"},{"t":9011,"text":"is still a vote. Okay. Um, is it, uh, possible"},{"t":9015,"text":"as well to think about, uh, communication strategy that integrates"},{"t":9019,"text":"preexisting, um, potential, uh, preexisting city engagement opportunities like events,"},{"t":9028,"text":"uh, that the city is hosting or sponsoring throughout September"},{"t":9032,"text":"and October. Through the mayor, certainly, uh, anytime where we"},{"t":9040,"text":"have sort of, um, pop up events or things where"},{"t":9044,"text":"we just have staff, you know, ready to engage with,"},{"t":9047,"text":"we typically bring a suite of things that the city"},{"t":9050,"text":"is doing, including if there is an election, we would"},{"t":9052,"text":"certainly have information available. Absolutely. Okay. Two more questions. Um,"},{"t":9058,"text":"did you know Costco has a parking lot camera. So"},{"t":9062,"text":"you can see how busy it is. So could we"},{"t":9065,"text":"do something similar. To show the cues. You don't, something"},{"t":9072,"text":"for you to think about. Mr. Johnson or Mr. Kingsley."},{"t":9077,"text":"Is that three Mayor Weekendly consider doing that? We would"},{"t":9081,"text":"have to look at it a little more closely to"},{"t":9083,"text":"see if there'd be additional costs. And requirements that we"},{"t":9087,"text":"currently don't have budgeted or selected, but it's certainly something"},{"t":9091,"text":"we could look into doing or if council wishes that"},{"t":9094,"text":"service established, uh, we certainly can do it if council"},{"t":9097,"text":"wishes to establish that and direct us to do so."},{"t":9100,"text":"They're not also be some privacy issues. I think that"},{"t":9106,"text":"was three mirror. That's correct. But we can also adjust"},{"t":9108,"text":"resolution of cameras to, um, we can offer different resolutions"},{"t":9113,"text":"that can meet different privacy requirements. Councillor Kim. I'm just."},{"t":9125,"text":"Uh, we are just so you know, through the mayor,"},{"t":9127,"text":"we are, when I mentioned we are thinking about doing"},{"t":9129,"text":"more tracking of wait times and lines at pulling stations."},{"t":9135,"text":"It's very similar to what we're doing except we didn't"},{"t":9138,"text":"contemplate a camera due to some of the logistical and"},{"t":9141,"text":"cost. But we are looking at tracking more information and"},{"t":9145,"text":"life updating that to our engagement staff instead of it"},{"t":9148,"text":"being more of a reactionary situation. So we're, we are"},{"t":9151,"text":"cautiously optimistic that with these changes, we're trying to do,"},{"t":9154,"text":"it will be, it won't impose too much extra work"},{"t":9159,"text":"on election staff at those locations. But it will enable"},{"t":9162,"text":"us to get more data, more live data to better"},{"t":9165,"text":"understand what our capacity is and what the traffic is"},{"t":9168,"text":"it between pulling locations and to better work with engagement"},{"t":9172,"text":"staff to live update individuals, including, we hope that this"},{"t":9176,"text":"could, if this goes well, we could actually use it"},{"t":9179,"text":"to potentially launch different types of services in the future"},{"t":9181,"text":"where we have more live information available for voters as"},{"t":9185,"text":"to which locations are busy and which ones are not."},{"t":9189,"text":"I'm smiling because it's funny that figuring out parking spaces"},{"t":9193,"text":"available in parquets is actually like easier now than figuring"},{"t":9196,"text":"out how long these lines are going to be. Um,"},{"t":9198,"text":"my last question is, um, for recruitment, uh, knowing that"},{"t":9204,"text":"you can hire, uh, youth under the age of 18"},{"t":9207,"text":"would you consider, uh, letting our youth council know that"},{"t":9210,"text":"there are employment opportunities."},{"t":9221,"text":"Three, Mary. Yeah. We have actually, as part of our"},{"t":9223,"text":"recruitment, we do reach out to our youth coordinator at"},{"t":9226,"text":"the city and rely on them to get the word"},{"t":9228,"text":"out to all interested in parties and individuals who may"},{"t":9231,"text":"want to experience working elections. Does that include, um, like,"},{"t":9235,"text":"uh, I D - pad welcoming City other committees of"},{"t":9239,"text":"very municipal engaged folks. Uh, three, Mayor, we've been working"},{"t":9248,"text":"with high schools and universities directly. I can find out"},{"t":9251,"text":"for you if that, if the reach has been out"},{"t":9254,"text":"to those groups. And I can certainly try and find"},{"t":9256,"text":"that out and follow up. Okay. Thank you for your"},{"t":9259,"text":"patience. And you've got a great angel on your shoulder"},{"t":9262,"text":"there. Mr. Kingsley. Thank you very much. I have one"},{"t":9268,"text":"question just before you go to Councillor Coleman. In our,"},{"t":9272,"text":"um, procedures, it references the fact that we need to"},{"t":9274,"text":"have at least four advanced voting days. But by my"},{"t":9280,"text":"look on your presentation, there were actually only three days"},{"t":9284,"text":"of the one of the days has two locations. Uh,"},{"t":9290,"text":"I'm actually looking at the appendix that you provided. And"},{"t":9294,"text":"under the General Policy Guidelines. And number six, it says"},{"t":9298,"text":"that there will be at least two advanced pulling locations"},{"t":9302,"text":"and at least four advanced voting days. So do the"},{"t":9308,"text":"two on the one day the one at Euvekin has"},{"t":9311,"text":"one at the VCC. Is that counting as two different"},{"t":9315,"text":"days. That's a good question. Mayor. I know part of"},{"t":9319,"text":"our planned advance voting days did change because one of"},{"t":9322,"text":"them, of course, was based on Yuvic availability and when"},{"t":9325,"text":"in Sanich was planning to do. So, uh, we'll have"},{"t":9327,"text":"a closer look at that and make sure that we're"},{"t":9329,"text":"abiding by all of the required bylaws on before we"},{"t":9333,"text":"finalise the date. Thank you for that. Councillor Coleman. Thank"},{"t":9336,"text":"you. A couple of questions through you. Could you pull"},{"t":9339,"text":"back the map of the polling stations that projected polling"},{"t":9342,"text":"stations, please? These are the traditional ones. You said there"},{"t":9346,"text":"were 13 before. Was it the City Hall that was"},{"t":9350,"text":"no longer the polling station in the core? Yes, I"},{"t":9354,"text":"believe it was. Uh, three, Mayor, the couple of changes"},{"t":9361,"text":"that I think council will see from what we were"},{"t":9364,"text":"plant the locations we're planning to use this time. And"},{"t":9366,"text":"from, uh, what we did in 2022, one of those"},{"t":9369,"text":"changes is City Hall is in advance bowl location. So"},{"t":9373,"text":"that is, um, not a location that we're interested in"},{"t":9377,"text":"using anymore. And we instead, we use the Victoria Conference"},{"t":9379,"text":"Centre of facilities instead. And then."},{"t":9394,"text":"Place. One. Okay. This. Okay, and, uh, more specifically, we"},{"t":9402,"text":"are, there are some smaller locations that council may recall"},{"t":9404,"text":"that we used in 2022 that we are not planning"},{"t":9408,"text":"to use this time. So a couple of examples is"},{"t":9411,"text":"the James Bade New Horizon Centre, the Cook Street Village"},{"t":9414,"text":"Activity Centre. We use those locations in 2022, but they're"},{"t":9418,"text":"very small locations, very limited in the capacity. And we"},{"t":9421,"text":"experienced a lot of problems with lines and wait times"},{"t":9423,"text":"and other issues that those locations. So instead, we've shifted"},{"t":9426,"text":"to using other locations. Larger ones, uh, an example of"},{"t":9432,"text":"one of the larger ones we're using is the Victoria"},{"t":9434,"text":"High School. We didn't use that last time in 2022."},{"t":9437,"text":"I can certainly provide counsel with a full accounting of"},{"t":9440,"text":"the differences between what we're planning and what we did"},{"t":9443,"text":"in 2022, if you'd like for, if you like more"},{"t":9445,"text":"detailed information. Thank you. Um. Many years ago, I was"},{"t":9451,"text":"trained as an international electoral observer for a state election"},{"t":9454,"text":"in Mexico. Um, one of the highest turnout areas, um,"},{"t":9459,"text":"were a series of polling stations in commercial malls because"},{"t":9464,"text":"it had great parking and it had already addressed the"},{"t":9466,"text":"accessibility issues. Have we considered those. Three mayor. I recall"},{"t":9473,"text":"you mentioning this before. And, uh, we have been exploring"},{"t":9479,"text":"and tried to explore this quite a bit for the"},{"t":9481,"text":"2025 crystal pool referendum and then including the election. One"},{"t":9486,"text":"of the key issues that we've encountered in doing so"},{"t":9490,"text":"is just the facilities that the malls would be able"},{"t":9492,"text":"to provide us. A lot of them were very inadequate"},{"t":9496,"text":"for ballot secrecy, privacy needs. And as well as just,"},{"t":9501,"text":"they were in an adequate space. So we, we've so"},{"t":9504,"text":"far have been unsuccessful in securing a big enough space."},{"t":9508,"text":"The mall in question that would give us probably the"},{"t":9513,"text":"most opportunity at the moment is very, very close to"},{"t":9516,"text":"the Victoria Conference Centre. So we actually have better larger"},{"t":9520,"text":"space security, the Victoria Conference Centre instead. So that's one"},{"t":9523,"text":"of the key issues that we're running into is just"},{"t":9525,"text":"what the malls are able to provide us, the most"},{"t":9528,"text":"that we've spoken to. And what we need. Thank you."},{"t":9531,"text":"But the moles all have parking space that they quite"},{"t":9534,"text":"often allocate and tent off for a day specific use."},{"t":9539,"text":"So there is that opportunity. You might want to explore"},{"t":9541,"text":"it. The next question goes back to the radio advertising."},{"t":9545,"text":"Um, we're targeting two stations. There are more. But the"},{"t":9551,"text":"ad buy is very low. It's 3, 100 dollars. So"},{"t":9555,"text":"if we're going to go into radio and we want"},{"t":9557,"text":"it to be broader, what should that actually be? Because"},{"t":9560,"text":"that is that ad buy is lower than I suspect"},{"t":9564,"text":"many of the candidates. Running for office. Mr. Kingsley. I'm"},{"t":9572,"text":"sorry, Mayor. I didn't quite catch the second one. Mr."},{"t":9575,"text":"Johnson, I think who would want to answer that? Mr."},{"t":9579,"text":"Johnson. Given the feedback today through the Mayor apologies, um,"},{"t":9585,"text":"we'll go back and re - look at all of"},{"t":9587,"text":"our radio spend and where we can be a little"},{"t":9591,"text":"bit more deliberate on some of the other stations you"},{"t":9593,"text":"mentioned. And then, yeah, we would just maybe trim back"},{"t":9599,"text":"on some of the other areas. Also, we would confer"},{"t":9602,"text":"with our, with our colleagues and allege services is like,"},{"t":9605,"text":"uh, do we have a little bit more we can"},{"t":9607,"text":"put towards this? I think it is a, uh, actual"},{"t":9611,"text":"value to tax dollars to making sure that everyone knows"},{"t":9614,"text":"that this is happening and that we're increasing our, our"},{"t":9617,"text":"voter turnout. Thank you. And one of the things that"},{"t":9620,"text":"we have done, I think exceptionally well and never marketed"},{"t":9623,"text":"properly. Is the drive up opportunity for people with ambulatory"},{"t":9629,"text":"issues. So if quite often we will drive perhaps a"},{"t":9633,"text":"senior who can't move very well and a returning officer"},{"t":9639,"text":"will come out to the car and allow them to"},{"t":9642,"text":"process that. Is that available in all our pedaling stations?"},{"t":9647,"text":"For one. And if it is, could we market it"},{"t":9650,"text":"better. Two ports, I think to that question. Both Mr."},{"t":9655,"text":"King's name, Mr. Johnson? Uh, three Mayor. If I heard"},{"t":9658,"text":"the question correctly, it was about the CURB side voting."},{"t":9661,"text":"Yes, we offer curbside voting at each and every polling"},{"t":9664,"text":"location and all voting opportunities. And as for the promotion"},{"t":9669,"text":"of it, I will turn to Mr. Johnson for that."},{"t":9672,"text":"Mr. Johnson. Through the mayor, the short answer would be"},{"t":9676,"text":"absolutely, uh, and we have a number of opportunities, not"},{"t":9680,"text":"just through our marketing through radio and advertising, but we"},{"t":9684,"text":"have, you know, those opportunities that go directly to every"},{"t":9687,"text":"home, that postcard, the Connect newsletter, those types of things"},{"t":9690,"text":"where we can promote those, uh, those opportunities for people"},{"t":9694,"text":"that aren't always listening to the radio or on social"},{"t":9696,"text":"media. Thank you through the mayor. Thank you very much."},{"t":9699,"text":"Thank you. Any final questions? Councillor Kim, can you be"},{"t":9703,"text":"brief so we don't go too far into lunch? Oh,"},{"t":9705,"text":"I was, I was going to move. Oh, absolutely. Yes."},{"t":9708,"text":"There's a colleague with the hand up. Council Johnson? Extremely"},{"t":9711,"text":"brief. I can't recall where their QR codes on the"},{"t":9715,"text":"ads or are they listed so tiny? I can't see"},{"t":9717,"text":"them. Through the mayor, our posters will have QR codes."},{"t":9722,"text":"Yeah. And, and the cool thing about QR codes is"},{"t":9724,"text":"we can track where we get the most action where"},{"t":9726,"text":"people are scanning them the most. We can say actually"},{"t":9728,"text":"let's not bother putting a poster at X because no"},{"t":9731,"text":"one ever touches it or whatever. Good. Councillor Kim, you'd"},{"t":9735,"text":"like to move the recommendation. Is there a second or"},{"t":9738,"text":"Councillor Coleman? Councillor Kim any comments. Oh, Councillor Coleman. Anybody"},{"t":9743,"text":"else any comments on the motion. It is essentially as"},{"t":9746,"text":"we discussed at the beginning appointments. I brought the chief"},{"t":9749,"text":"election officer and a variety of deputies. All those in"},{"t":9753,"text":"favor. Anybody opposed. That is unanimous. Well timed. Thank you"},{"t":9758,"text":"very much for all of that work and all you're"},{"t":9760,"text":"about to do for the next few months. Uh, it"},{"t":9762,"text":"is noon. I am going to suggest and request for"},{"t":9765,"text":"council that we reconvene at 115 to accommodate commitment that"},{"t":9770,"text":"I have with provincial government minister. Thank you. So a"},{"t":9775,"text":"little bit longer luncheon. And so we'll be back here"},{"t":9777,"text":"at 115. Thank you. And we'll continue on then with"},{"t":9780,"text":"the balance of our committee agenda. Korea City Council's May"},{"t":9788,"text":"21st Committee of the Whole meeting. Before we took our"},{"t":9792,"text":"slightly extended lunch break, we had reached G2 on our"},{"t":9797,"text":"Committee agenda. This is the technical high angle rope Rescue"},{"t":9800,"text":"Program, which was originally placed on the Consent Agenda, but"},{"t":9803,"text":"was pulled because there is a question that needs to"},{"t":9805,"text":"be asked. So I believe Councillor Gardner, that was you"},{"t":9808,"text":"who would ask, wanted to ask a question, so why"},{"t":9810,"text":"don't I toss it over to you and I believe"},{"t":9813,"text":"ChiefApp gets in the yes, he's online. And so why"},{"t":9816,"text":"don't you pose your question to him? Thank you. Do"},{"t":9818,"text":"we have to move exceptions first? Because I'm fine with"},{"t":9820,"text":"that too. I'm not objecting to any. Sure, why don't"},{"t":9823,"text":"you move the motion? Yeah, just to speed things a"},{"t":9825,"text":"little. Move the motion, and if someone likes to second"},{"t":9826,"text":"the motion, Councillor Coleman secondic, so go ahead, Councillor Gardner"},{"t":9830,"text":"questions and comments. Yeah, thank you very much. And I"},{"t":9834,"text":"found this very interesting, and I realised that the City"},{"t":9837,"text":"Victoria is very different from Sydney. And therefore, this equipment"},{"t":9844,"text":"would be more properly, should we say, how is in"},{"t":9849,"text":"Victoria with Sydney having use of it when it needs"},{"t":9852,"text":"it? So that all made sense. But then it encouraged"},{"t":9854,"text":"me, of course. Our city has changed so much in"},{"t":9857,"text":"the last 10, 20, 30 years. In the 70s, we"},{"t":9860,"text":"had a big build with a few high buildings, most"},{"t":9862,"text":"in Jane Spain, and a couple other speckled throughout the"},{"t":9865,"text":"city. Now we have a lot of can 20 and"},{"t":9868,"text":"higher, you know, coming buildings. So my real question was,"},{"t":9873,"text":"is whether or not we have any kind of, not"},{"t":9876,"text":"we, but especially the chief, has any kind of record"},{"t":9880,"text":"or what kind of data there is to show? How"},{"t":9882,"text":"many high buildings there are? And perhaps if sometime, if"},{"t":9886,"text":"not today, another time, we could hear about the whole"},{"t":9891,"text":"tower crane rescue and fire suppression systems for high buildings"},{"t":9895,"text":"and the limitations. Because I think it's something that we"},{"t":9898,"text":"would all benefit from. And the General Public would too."},{"t":9902,"text":"And as I said, there's an even changes in our"},{"t":9906,"text":"term, which is of course the same term as chief"},{"t":9908,"text":"Atkinson, since he was appointed when we were here. And"},{"t":9912,"text":"so I just wondering if the chief could just speak"},{"t":9914,"text":"about that for a couple of minutes is to kind"},{"t":9916,"text":"of what the situation is in this city. And I"},{"t":9920,"text":"don't know if he's on now, is he? Yes, yes,"},{"t":9922,"text":"he is. Right. Chief, did you heard this question, I"},{"t":9926,"text":"think. So why don't you talk a little bit about"},{"t":9928,"text":"what you can off the top of your head. And"},{"t":9930,"text":"then I think that I heard a request there for"},{"t":9932,"text":"you to at some future date come and give us"},{"t":9934,"text":"some more sort of fulsome overview, uh, of how this"},{"t":9937,"text":"works. Uh, thank you, Mayor. And thank you for the"},{"t":9940,"text":"question, councillor. Uh, through the mayor. Um, perhaps I'll start"},{"t":9944,"text":"with the Tower Crane agreement specifically just to provide a"},{"t":9946,"text":"little context around that. Um, so, uh, as we know"},{"t":9950,"text":"when tall buildings go up around the City of Victoria,"},{"t":9952,"text":"we see, uh, lots of cranes, tower cranes go up"},{"t":9955,"text":"around the city. Uh, and they usually have operators, uh,"},{"t":9957,"text":"that are contained within them, usually at elevation. Uh, as"},{"t":9961,"text":"I'm sure you can appreciate that, um, the technical requirements"},{"t":9965,"text":"around trying to provide rescue to someone who may be"},{"t":9967,"text":"in distress at elevation, uh, is very complex and very"},{"t":9971,"text":"technical in nature. Uh, it's not an endeavour that every"},{"t":9974,"text":"municipality can take on, uh, to be properly equipped and"},{"t":9978,"text":"properly trained in order to provide that service. Um, they"},{"t":9981,"text":"certainly have the opportunity to reach out to other providers"},{"t":9983,"text":"that are capable of providing that service and enter into"},{"t":9986,"text":"an agreement for that service with them, as is the"},{"t":9988,"text":"case here. Uh, so for this particular agreement, uh, we"},{"t":9991,"text":"do have a fully trained and fully outfitted, uh, technical"},{"t":9995,"text":"rescued team, uh, that can provide this service to the"},{"t":9998,"text":"town of Sydney. They've requested that through council resolution, uh,"},{"t":10001,"text":"and so that's what I'm asking for today is, is"},{"t":10003,"text":"council endorsement to, to move forward with that, uh, with"},{"t":10006,"text":"respect to firefight and capacity and tall buildings and the"},{"t":10009,"text":"tall building stock in Victoria, uh, Councillor Gardner is correct."},{"t":10012,"text":"I do not have, uh, in exact number of tall"},{"t":10014,"text":"buildings in our, uh, in our community, uh, right before"},{"t":10017,"text":"me right now, but I can certainly get that information,"},{"t":10020,"text":"uh, really quickly. And I would be happy to present,"},{"t":10023,"text":"uh, on any topic related to tall buildings, firefighting, fire"},{"t":10026,"text":"protection, uh, councils, uh, council's direction anytime. Thank you, Councillor"},{"t":10032,"text":"Ger. Thank you, Chiefs. And so I hope that someone"},{"t":10033,"text":"can schedule that in because I think it would be"},{"t":10035,"text":"very valuable for all of us. Thank you, Chief. Great."},{"t":10037,"text":"Thank you. Councillor Coleman, you were the secondary. Yes. Thank"},{"t":10040,"text":"you. I fully support this. However, there is a word"},{"t":10042,"text":"missing in the printed document in front of us as"},{"t":10046,"text":"opposed to the paper one. It's actually a five year"},{"t":10048,"text":"term. Oh, yes. The word year is missing. Very good."},{"t":10052,"text":"Thank you for catching that. Any other comments? No. Anyone"},{"t":10057,"text":"else have any other comments? Uh, seeing none, all those"},{"t":10060,"text":"in favor. Anyone opposed. That is unanimous. Thank you, Chief."},{"t":10065,"text":"And I will just note that, um, Councillor Loughten had"},{"t":10067,"text":"indicated she was going to be late as she was"},{"t":10069,"text":"attending a memorial over the lunch hour. So she'll join"},{"t":10072,"text":"us when she's able. That does take us on then"},{"t":10075,"text":"to two items of new business. The first of which"},{"t":10077,"text":"was on the consent agenda. That was item H1. The"},{"t":10081,"text":"council member motion with regard to the Cumberland BC miners"},{"t":10083,"text":"Memorial Grosslide Vigil. So that, uh, actually has been approved"},{"t":10089,"text":"to proceed on to daytime council. I don't think it's"},{"t":10092,"text":"coming today, but it will attend to us, uh, at"},{"t":10095,"text":"the next available spot on our date home council agendas."},{"t":10099,"text":"We just move on to item H2 and that is"},{"t":10101,"text":"another council member motion. This is about graffiti prevention options"},{"t":10105,"text":"for age restrictions retail access and storage controls of spray"},{"t":10109,"text":"paint. That is, I believe, council hammon. You'd like to"},{"t":10111,"text":"move that. Yes. And Councillor Gardner is seconding. Councillor Hammond,"},{"t":10116,"text":"over you. Thanks, Mayor. If people had been to Minidoso,"},{"t":10124,"text":"Manitoba, many years ago, you'd go to the lyric theatre."},{"t":10126,"text":"And when I was a kid living in Minedosa, I"},{"t":10129,"text":"went to the theatre and one of the trailers was"},{"t":10131,"text":"about the movie MAME starring, um. Not Roslin Russell. I'm"},{"t":10137,"text":"not that old. Um, Lucille Ball. But the interesting thing"},{"t":10140,"text":"is they said two years in the making and, you"},{"t":10143,"text":"know, what a spectacular thing this would be. Well, I"},{"t":10145,"text":"found out when I was older for some strange reason"},{"t":10147,"text":"that she had broken her leg. And the reason why"},{"t":10150,"text":"it took two years is because she took a buddy"},{"t":10152,"text":"a year to recover before they could get into filming."},{"t":10154,"text":"I just want to say this, that for me, this"},{"t":10157,"text":"motion has been three years in the making. And it"},{"t":10160,"text":"is just something in which I have to credit. I"},{"t":10164,"text":"haven't got her permission. So I'll just use her first"},{"t":10165,"text":"name PAM, who was involved in Victoria in removing graffiti."},{"t":10171,"text":"And she would send counsel all these pictures. I then"},{"t":10174,"text":"started talking to her and wanted to bring something forward."},{"t":10177,"text":"And she volunteered, um, to actually do some of the"},{"t":10180,"text":"research. And so she actually found out and called around"},{"t":10183,"text":"to some different places throughout Canada and then gave me"},{"t":10187,"text":"an opportunity to follow up on it. And so there"},{"t":10190,"text":"was some objections and some other things that were going"},{"t":10193,"text":"on. And I thought this is crazy. And I also"},{"t":10196,"text":"thought what's crazy is how much the city spends on"},{"t":10200,"text":"removing graffiti. And it took quite a bit. And I"},{"t":10203,"text":"have to ultimately thank our director of finance where she"},{"t":10207,"text":"put it all together for me. But I'm also finding"},{"t":10210,"text":"that the other things that for sure we pay the"},{"t":10214,"text":"City of Victoria taxpayers pay up too close to 500,"},{"t":10217,"text":"000 dollars a year. And then the, um, another, um,"},{"t":10222,"text":"another pot of money that's worth 100, 000 dollars which"},{"t":10225,"text":"goes into other aspects of trying to sort of reclaim"},{"t":10229,"text":"some of these areas in which there has been graffiti"},{"t":10233,"text":"or the idea is if you put up something nice,"},{"t":10235,"text":"there's less graffiti that goes on it. So it's closer"},{"t":10238,"text":"to about or an excessive about 600, 000 dollars a"},{"t":10241,"text":"year that the taxpayers spend on this. Since my motion"},{"t":10245,"text":"has come forward, um, I and perhaps other councillors as"},{"t":10248,"text":"well have gotten information about the amount of people who"},{"t":10252,"text":"do things, um, that I didn't even consider. Uh, one"},{"t":10255,"text":"of them I got from, um, she gave me her"},{"t":10258,"text":"permission to say this. Rachel Westman, she's the chairperson of"},{"t":10261,"text":"the burnside gorgeous group. Did anyone know there was a"},{"t":10265,"text":"burnside gorgeous group? Okay. Chris knew. I didn't know that."},{"t":10267,"text":"And she said for the last four years, they had"},{"t":10269,"text":"been removing graffiti with paint from the city so that"},{"t":10273,"text":"she gets, uh, they get paid from the city. And"},{"t":10276,"text":"they have about 12 volunteers who spend between 450 and"},{"t":10280,"text":"500 hours. Removing graffiti. And so, uh, I know that"},{"t":10286,"text":"she is only one of a number of people because"},{"t":10289,"text":"the other people who are involved in this process. And"},{"t":10293,"text":"basically this is a, this is a blight. It's, um,"},{"t":10297,"text":"you know, the fact is it's vandalism. And so it's"},{"t":10301,"text":"the kind of thing that are people trying to get"},{"t":10302,"text":"rid of as quickly as they can. I know in"},{"t":10305,"text":"the city, if it's really objectionable, then the city tries"},{"t":10309,"text":"their best to get on that as quickly as possible"},{"t":10312,"text":"and have that removed. But that's also an ongoing concern."},{"t":10315,"text":"There was some of the things that stalled me and"},{"t":10318,"text":"I'll just comment on it. I put it in the"},{"t":10319,"text":"background information about, you know, some of the things that"},{"t":10323,"text":"some people would say, for example, which is, well, you"},{"t":10325,"text":"can buy spray paint online. And what you can, um,"},{"t":10329,"text":"but if you're a minor, let's say, and I'm not"},{"t":10331,"text":"suggesting by any means that the, the vast majority of,"},{"t":10336,"text":"of those who do the destructive spray painting, our kids,"},{"t":10340,"text":"um, but for those who are, if that means you"},{"t":10343,"text":"got to go and get it online, then you got"},{"t":10345,"text":"to get a credit card from your parent, presumably. And"},{"t":10347,"text":"this is going to have to be delivered to your,"},{"t":10350,"text":"your home. So hopefully that can cut down on some"},{"t":10353,"text":"things. Some of the other things that I have found"},{"t":10354,"text":"out, and this was in my discussions with the City"},{"t":10358,"text":"of Winnipeg and the City of London, Ontario, um, and"},{"t":10362,"text":"there must be other sources on this as well, that"},{"t":10364,"text":"a certain amount of spray paint is actually stolen from"},{"t":10366,"text":"people's garages and back decks and all those kind of"},{"t":10369,"text":"things. So that's even something as opposed to just giving"},{"t":10372,"text":"up on doing something like this. We could also make"},{"t":10374,"text":"it aware for people on this. Um, another one is"},{"t":10379,"text":"just one more thing for merchants to do. And I"},{"t":10381,"text":"get that. But there are already a number of merchants"},{"t":10384,"text":"who are restricting these in the same way that we"},{"t":10388,"text":"restrict the sales of, um, all kinds of other products."},{"t":10391,"text":"Um, in different areas. I was remembering when I was"},{"t":10395,"text":"going to the states, uh, when I went to New"},{"t":10397,"text":"York and I had a cold and just trying to"},{"t":10400,"text":"buy normal antihistamine, those things were locked up because apparently"},{"t":10404,"text":"I guess you can use those for other purposes. Uh,"},{"t":10407,"text":"anyway, so there's lots of reasons why when it's good"},{"t":10410,"text":"public policy, we can have this. So the big ones"},{"t":10414,"text":"are asking staff. I don't want to pretend to know"},{"t":10416,"text":"this. But asking staff to look into a number of"},{"t":10418,"text":"things. The big ones are about restricting miners from being"},{"t":10422,"text":"able to buy paints. Uh, and then the other one"},{"t":10425,"text":"is where we would have more restrictions for retailers, just"},{"t":10430,"text":"making sure that it's locked up or it's in a"},{"t":10432,"text":"safer place or maybe behind the till or something along"},{"t":10434,"text":"those lines when people are going to be getting spray"},{"t":10436,"text":"paint so they can't steal it. And again, I know"},{"t":10439,"text":"a number of people do this already. Within this motion"},{"t":10444,"text":"there, I really want and encourage staff to where they"},{"t":10448,"text":"can talk to anyone and everyone who might be affected"},{"t":10451,"text":"by this. And also to give thoughts where we would"},{"t":10454,"text":"have exemptions for parents or guardian schools employers, trades, artists"},{"t":10458,"text":"and other legitimate users, um, how, how would we implement"},{"t":10461,"text":"something like this? So the idea is I'm hoping we"},{"t":10464,"text":"can do something. And I just have one question if"},{"t":10469,"text":"I could ask that, um, staff, um, and I'm not"},{"t":10473,"text":"sure who asked this too. But are there any requirements"},{"t":10480,"text":"that we could impose on third parties other than homeowners"},{"t":10486,"text":"and business owners to get rid of graffiti such as"},{"t":10490,"text":"tell us or hydro. That's an interesting question. I'm not"},{"t":10495,"text":"sure to whom that would be posed. Is that an"},{"t":10498,"text":"infrastructure, yes, Mr. Doyle. Through the, uh, there are, uh,"},{"t":10505,"text":"numerous opportunities when tele or other utility providers are installing,"},{"t":10509,"text":"maintaining, replacing infrastructure where we're interacting with them. And, uh,"},{"t":10513,"text":"we, we do notify these utility owners when there are"},{"t":10517,"text":"instances of offensive graffiti. Often when members of the public"},{"t":10520,"text":"are reporting it, they don't know necessarily who owns the"},{"t":10523,"text":"infrastructure. And if we're not the owner, we still ensure"},{"t":10525,"text":"that the message gets passed through to the appropriate infrastructure"},{"t":10529,"text":"owner. Thanks. And through you, Mayor, can I ask if"},{"t":10534,"text":"we were to put in a bylaw, uh, or sorry,"},{"t":10537,"text":"could we put in a bylaw that we would have"},{"t":10539,"text":"the authority to require those any third parties to remove"},{"t":10546,"text":"any spray paint. And if not, that we, let's say,"},{"t":10549,"text":"would do it and would build them. Is there any"},{"t":10551,"text":"opportunity for that. Mr. Doyle, do you know that? That"},{"t":10554,"text":"sounds a bit more like a legal question. To the"},{"t":10558,"text":"bear, I've not couldn't answer that precisely. So I'd have"},{"t":10562,"text":"to get back to you in consultation with colleagues. Okay."},{"t":10565,"text":"Thanks for that. And the only reason I was asking"},{"t":10567,"text":"that is that yet another person emailed me their last"},{"t":10570,"text":"night or this morning, uh, with comments about that. And"},{"t":10573,"text":"he actually got something back from staff, but I didn't,"},{"t":10576,"text":"I wasn't, I wasn't clear whether it was the authorization."},{"t":10578,"text":"I know that there's before you go on. I think"},{"t":10580,"text":"Mr. Kingsley might have something to offer. Uh, sorry, thank"},{"t":10583,"text":"you Mayor just in relation to that last question. Generally"},{"t":10587,"text":"speaking, we have the legislative authority to regulate in relation"},{"t":10591,"text":"to business, but there are conditions. So Staff would have"},{"t":10593,"text":"to look at that very carefully to give you a"},{"t":10595,"text":"fullsame answer as to the extent of what we could"},{"t":10597,"text":"do to impose regulations and requirements on a third party."},{"t":10600,"text":"Right. Okay. Thanks. So that might be something that I"},{"t":10603,"text":"might just want to add an amendment to look into"},{"t":10605,"text":"or, yeah, maybe that will. I won't, I won't write"},{"t":10608,"text":"it this moment, but I'll see if we can do"},{"t":10609,"text":"it as we go along. One of the things that"},{"t":10611,"text":"I read, um, I believe it was in this morning's"},{"t":10614,"text":"paper. And it was about CN. And Cn is putting"},{"t":10620,"text":"100 million dollars towards helping out with homelessness across Canada."},{"t":10624,"text":"And I took this, um, snapshot of this from the"},{"t":10628,"text":"Times colonists. And it was from the representative for CN."},{"t":10633,"text":"And he said this. We know it is a huge,"},{"t":10636,"text":"he's talking about homelessness. We know it is a huge"},{"t":10638,"text":"problem. And we know it takes more than our investment"},{"t":10642,"text":"to solve it. But I would say if we don't"},{"t":10644,"text":"start somewhere, you'll never solve it. And where we started"},{"t":10649,"text":"is actually pretty meaningful. And that jumped out for me"},{"t":10651,"text":"because I thought about this motion this morning where I"},{"t":10654,"text":"can appreciate that there might be all kinds of things"},{"t":10656,"text":"in which we could say, well, how much is this"},{"t":10658,"text":"going to impact. And I'd like to think with how"},{"t":10660,"text":"much money we spend, how much effort citizens put in"},{"t":10664,"text":"to actually, um, trying to remove the graffiti or paint"},{"t":10668,"text":"over it. I figure we got to do something. Very"},{"t":10671,"text":"much. Councillor Gardner is the secondary. Thank you. Graffiti is"},{"t":10675,"text":"a problem. A problem that even becomes more damaging when"},{"t":10678,"text":"it goes beyond tagging. Because most people can't even read"},{"t":10682,"text":"what's been tagged. For a few years, JBNA worked with"},{"t":10686,"text":"residents who had a graffiti clean team. They worked daily"},{"t":10690,"text":"at time flower man was putting up tulips faster than"},{"t":10695,"text":"they could be harvested. Targets and messages change over time."},{"t":10700,"text":"As councillors, we have received many, many emails about graffiti."},{"t":10705,"text":"More, sorry. My computer shifted just a second here. As"},{"t":10714,"text":"countless, we received many, many emails about graffiti. More recent"},{"t":10717,"text":"hotspots areas have been in the brunside gorge area along"},{"t":10720,"text":"the galloping goose trail. And it is frequently, most often,"},{"t":10725,"text":"placed in public places. And sometimes damages public property. I"},{"t":10730,"text":"recall at the start of a long weekend period, earlier"},{"t":10733,"text":"this year, scrubbing away as much as I could, offensive"},{"t":10736,"text":"graffiti on City Outdoor seating. A difficult problem, one of"},{"t":10741,"text":"the city is limited in dealing with it is when"},{"t":10743,"text":"graffiti is on private property. That's been somewhat mentioned already."},{"t":10747,"text":"I recall at the start of a long weekend last"},{"t":10749,"text":"year, scrubbing a problem where there was very offensive graffiti."},{"t":10758,"text":"However, the owner didn't know it, because he only didn't"},{"t":10761,"text":"see it. And properly happened to be switching hands. And"},{"t":10763,"text":"at that time I was able to get hold of"},{"t":10765,"text":"them such that the owner found out about it and"},{"t":10768,"text":"dealt with it almost to immediately, as quickly as they"},{"t":10770,"text":"could. And that's great. And when I think about the"},{"t":10772,"text":"Galloping goose, we've had a lot of complaints there where"},{"t":10775,"text":"it was on private property. But that doesn't mean the"},{"t":10777,"text":"owner is even knew about it. If it's on the"},{"t":10780,"text":"side of the fence, they don't see from their property."},{"t":10782,"text":"And so we do have this on usual situation where"},{"t":10786,"text":"private property owners may not even be aware of it."},{"t":10788,"text":"And so as staff looks about just trying perhaps grasp"},{"t":10795,"text":"this issue, I would hope that you would also look"},{"t":10797,"text":"at something about notifying private properties. That does not mean"},{"t":10802,"text":"taking enforcement or action, asking for action. But just so"},{"t":10806,"text":"they're aware of it. Because a lot of private property"},{"t":10809,"text":"owners who end up hosting this and don't know it."},{"t":10814,"text":"The average person going by won't know who owns it."},{"t":10816,"text":"They're not going to necessarily go knock on doors. That's"},{"t":10818,"text":"not always a safe situation. So it's just something I"},{"t":10821,"text":"think that we could be looking at just as a"},{"t":10823,"text":"try and find a simple way. Again, not enforcement, not"},{"t":10827,"text":"taking real action of asking someone to remove something, but"},{"t":10831,"text":"at least informing people that it's there. Because I think"},{"t":10833,"text":"that might go a long way to perhaps cleaning up"},{"t":10836,"text":"some of the more problematic ones. Um, so if this"},{"t":10842,"text":"motion receives the consent, uh, that's what I mean, I"},{"t":10846,"text":"would ask you off to at least look at some"},{"t":10847,"text":"kind of notification system. And I was pleased to see"},{"t":10850,"text":"on a newscast earlier this week in response to this"},{"t":10853,"text":"motion, a retailer explaining how they already secure spray paint."},{"t":10858,"text":"Without regulation. And I think it was castle hardware. So"},{"t":10861,"text":"thank you for that. And so I welcome this motion"},{"t":10864,"text":"which asks staff to explore. To see if we can"},{"t":10867,"text":"find out something that fits our city. So I was"},{"t":10871,"text":"pleased to second this motion. Thank you very much. Anybody"},{"t":10877,"text":"else on this motion. Uh - oh. Councillor Coleman. Do"},{"t":10880,"text":"you need help? Getting some assistance. Hang on just a"},{"t":10886,"text":"sec council, Coleman. Right. We've got to help coming. Yes,"},{"t":10891,"text":"we do. All right. Councillor Coleman, why don't you proceed?"},{"t":10897,"text":"Yes. I'm in the shoreline just next to the tidal"},{"t":10899,"text":"wave. Um, this is, this comes in waves at us."},{"t":10905,"text":"The issue of graffiti. And we need to differentiate between"},{"t":10909,"text":"street art, which is sometimes very good. That is allowed"},{"t":10913,"text":"on property. And tagging and other graffiti that is not"},{"t":10919,"text":"allowed by the property order. It doesn't actually matter whether"},{"t":10921,"text":"it's public property or private property. Um, historically we have"},{"t":10926,"text":"paid over half a million dollars a year for both,"},{"t":10931,"text":"uh, painted particularly tags in the downtown core or acid"},{"t":10936,"text":"etching windows that we've seen at the commercial level, which"},{"t":10940,"text":"is not something that the city has paid for. It's"},{"t":10942,"text":"the business owner or the lessee that has taken that"},{"t":10946,"text":"on. In 2011, it got so bad that the City"},{"t":10951,"text":"of Langford actually sued the parents took the parents to"},{"t":10956,"text":"court of somebody who had been found guilty of 150"},{"t":10960,"text":"tags and a cost of 27, 000 dollars. In 15"},{"t":10964,"text":"years ago. The self - described artist was find 750"},{"t":10972,"text":"dollars and I think 150 hours of community service. And"},{"t":10979,"text":"that's so annoyed that Council of the Day that they"},{"t":10981,"text":"then sued the parents successfully, not for the 27, 000"},{"t":10985,"text":"dollars, but it was a contribution to the local food"},{"t":10989,"text":"bank, I believe. But these tend to come in waves."},{"t":10993,"text":"And for those of us, some members of the council"},{"t":10995,"text":"were, uh, involved in the cleanup of Chinatown, the spring"},{"t":10999,"text":"cleaning for Chinatown just recently. We were all out scrubbing"},{"t":11004,"text":"some windows with, uh, those, the number of tags that"},{"t":11008,"text":"had gone on in the upper levels. And what we"},{"t":11011,"text":"did that day was largely, um, cosmetic, but we weren't"},{"t":11015,"text":"able to address the upper story, uh, graffiti that was"},{"t":11019,"text":"being dealt with two days later, um, at a fairly"},{"t":11024,"text":"significant cost, much of it donated. But it is something"},{"t":11027,"text":"that caused society. And we have better places to put"},{"t":11031,"text":"that 500, 000 dollars a year Anything we can do"},{"t":11035,"text":"to constrain unregulated non - permitted tags murals, whatever, um,"},{"t":11043,"text":"is a good thing. I support this. Thank you very"},{"t":11046,"text":"much. Anybody else. Council or Dell, councillor Kim, councillor Cardinal."},{"t":11054,"text":"Thank you. This is this is very interesting. I enjoyed"},{"t":11056,"text":"thinking about this over the last week My assumption is"},{"t":11060,"text":"that this a lot of this is actually the work"},{"t":11063,"text":"under the authority of the Victoria police department and I"},{"t":11067,"text":"recall an early briefing where the previous police chief mentioned"},{"t":11070,"text":"they actually have staff who are dedicated to this who"},{"t":11073,"text":"Track tags work through tags You know locate folks who"},{"t":11077,"text":"are doing this. Have you have the movers to die"},{"t":11081,"text":"in any consultation with Vic PD or understood the work"},{"t":11083,"text":"that they're doing on this given that in many cases"},{"t":11085,"text":"This is a criminal in nature. Cause you're humming, go"},{"t":11090,"text":"ahead No. There are different people in the city. It"},{"t":11095,"text":"took a lot to track down exactly where it's coming"},{"t":11097,"text":"from and I don't believe with what I've got in"},{"t":11099,"text":"the background It even covers everything, but I thought it"},{"t":11101,"text":"was bad enough to go with that So no, I"},{"t":11103,"text":"have not. Mined a couple questions. The part about the"},{"t":11110,"text":"miners was interesting because I know often we like to"},{"t":11112,"text":"blame things on minors going around and doing things obviously"},{"t":11115,"text":"Um, I don't know if it's always true and I"},{"t":11117,"text":"know a lot of the actual Mural artists who many"},{"t":11123,"text":"of them kind of come from the graffiti world and"},{"t":11125,"text":"Victoria and then you have a mural artist in that"},{"t":11127,"text":"world are definitely not minors Some are their 20s and"},{"t":11129,"text":"30s Is there data that shows a lot of this"},{"t":11132,"text":"is kind of 12 to 18 year olds running around"},{"t":11135,"text":"spraying things Like I assume it's actually mostly folks that"},{"t":11138,"text":"are a bit older. Would any of your research kind"},{"t":11141,"text":"of get into is this an actual issue with minors"},{"t":11144,"text":"or are we singling out the wrong people. Thanks and"},{"t":11149,"text":"through you mayor No, I'm not interested in singling out"},{"t":11151,"text":"a group and as a matter of fact that's why"},{"t":11153,"text":"I made reference to this is just that it's one"},{"t":11156,"text":"element I remember when I was young doing stupid things"},{"t":11160,"text":"and then after several decades I got smarter Um, and"},{"t":11164,"text":"so it is just one element that is also in"},{"t":11167,"text":"I can't remember I count honestly I can't remember whether"},{"t":11169,"text":"it's in Winnipeg's in London or both Um, but that's"},{"t":11172,"text":"one of the one of the restrictions that they've got"},{"t":11174,"text":"So the vast majority of kids just like the vast"},{"t":11177,"text":"majority of adults don't do this But it's just to"},{"t":11180,"text":"say if staff comes back and says where this has"},{"t":11183,"text":"been done It actually helps out I think then we"},{"t":11185,"text":"can go with that. Okay, I'll leave my questions there"},{"t":11188,"text":"for now and continue to listen. Councillor Kim. Thanks through"},{"t":11195,"text":"the chair Uh, similarly this was really interesting I appreciated"},{"t":11200,"text":"the comments about having to distinguish between different kinds of"},{"t":11203,"text":"graffiti Um, I support this motion Uh, because it is"},{"t":11209,"text":"asking for a port back and frankly I'm just curious"},{"t":11211,"text":"to know what is doable and what isn't But I"},{"t":11214,"text":"do want to colour this conversation with an anecdote where"},{"t":11221,"text":"my childhood home The walls were covered in my graffiti"},{"t":11227,"text":"My childhood graffiti But that's because I lived in a"},{"t":11229,"text":"home where the needs of the child were pretty secondary"},{"t":11235,"text":"Uh, two other considerations Um, and I remember as a"},{"t":11241,"text":"kid not knowing how to ask my parents for paper"},{"t":11245,"text":"to draw and colour on It's something we just automatically"},{"t":11249,"text":"think to do for children But it wasn't something that"},{"t":11252,"text":"was considered by my parents at the time And so"},{"t":11255,"text":"the walls became my canvas And then my younger brother"},{"t":11258,"text":"took that up as well Um, apparently trying to get"},{"t":11261,"text":"rid of, to move the house along and paint over"},{"t":11265,"text":"It was a challenge But my point being though Is"},{"t":11267,"text":"that Um, it's a piece of expression And I think"},{"t":11272,"text":"about Uh, folks who use graffiti as a way to"},{"t":11276,"text":"express where other circumstances in their life Prohibit that kind"},{"t":11281,"text":"of, um, artistic expression and need And so Uh, I'm"},{"t":11287,"text":"keen to see where this goes But I do want"},{"t":11290,"text":"to make note of, um, the social need for art"},{"t":11297,"text":"and how graffiti could be an expression of. An artistic"},{"t":11302,"text":"Um. I guess abulence that has no other place to"},{"t":11308,"text":"go. And I'll leave it at that Thank you very"},{"t":11310,"text":"much Councillor Caradona. Uh, thanks very much Mayor I do"},{"t":11317,"text":"agree that graffiti is a problem. However, I'm not convinced"},{"t":11322,"text":"that this is the solution to it And what I'm"},{"t":11325,"text":"seeing here is potentially quite a lot of staff time"},{"t":11328,"text":"and regulatory work for potentially no payoff whatsoever I mean,"},{"t":11332,"text":"I'm not going to have staff pull up on the"},{"t":11334,"text":"screen because I think it would be a waste of"},{"t":11335,"text":"time But I'm just looking at Amazon. ca right now"},{"t":11338,"text":"It's very easy to buy spray paint It costs about"},{"t":11341,"text":"13 dollars in 97 cents for a canister And the"},{"t":11345,"text":"fastest delivery would be Sunday, May 24th So if one"},{"t":11349,"text":"wanted to get up to miss shift with online spray"},{"t":11351,"text":"paint They could do so by the end of the"},{"t":11353,"text":"weekend So I'm a little bit uncertain about how this"},{"t":11358,"text":"would solve the problem As noted in the motion's backgrounder"},{"t":11362,"text":"People could still buy spray pain and neighbouring jurisdictions if"},{"t":11365,"text":"we somehow regulated it They can buy it online I'm"},{"t":11368,"text":"also not convinced that miners are the issue here We've"},{"t":11371,"text":"been presented with zero evidence that Uh, miners are in"},{"t":11374,"text":"fact Uh, committing these vandalistic crimes I don't know if"},{"t":11378,"text":"there's any arrest data or find data on youth But"},{"t":11382,"text":"I don't think it's fair to pinpoint it on them."},{"t":11385,"text":"I'm also very concerned about the staff time And I'd"},{"t":11387,"text":"like to put it through the mayor to staff I"},{"t":11389,"text":"assume that this work would fall to Community safety and"},{"t":11392,"text":"well - being team and maybe also legal. Uh... How's"},{"t":11397,"text":"your workload looking? Do you feel like you have sufficient"},{"t":11400,"text":"amount of work from previous council direction. I think this"},{"t":11405,"text":"is intended probably for Mr. Rentucci, and I don't know"},{"t":11408,"text":"that we have legal staff on top. Mr. Antucci. Any"},{"t":11413,"text":"thoughts. Through the mayor. You know our workloads are very"},{"t":11421,"text":"solid Um, you know It would depend on the timing"},{"t":11425,"text":"I would say. If this was something that you were"},{"t":11428,"text":"looking at over the next 3 - 4 months I"},{"t":11432,"text":"don't think it's something we could prioritize with the... Especially"},{"t":11436,"text":"the engagement side of this. Uh... Which is... There's somewhat"},{"t":11442,"text":"consuming part I can't speak for legal Um... There is"},{"t":11446,"text":"review that would have to be done to ensure that"},{"t":11448,"text":"we remain in the Constitutional jurisdiction of a city and"},{"t":11454,"text":"not moving into other areas Um... But thank you. Councillor"},{"t":11459,"text":"And I recognise that this is only a report back"},{"t":11461,"text":"But if the report back Uh... were to suggest a"},{"t":11466,"text":"path ahead I think it would imply an extraordinary amount"},{"t":11469,"text":"of work I mean The consultation with affected retailers DVBA"},{"t":11473,"text":"Songs in Kosapsum User serving organisation to becomes just a"},{"t":11477,"text":"massive engagement undertaking on one issue only Which is spray"},{"t":11481,"text":"paint And I don't think that's worth it I can"},{"t":11483,"text":"see I can Envision a scenario in which we're doing"},{"t":11487,"text":"a consultation with the nations Who are extraordinarily busy and"},{"t":11490,"text":"have limited capacity On a broader range of community safety"},{"t":11494,"text":"and well - being issues And maybe... Graffiti is one"},{"t":11497,"text":"of the things that is brought up in that consultation"},{"t":11499,"text":"I don't see a rationale For phoning up the nations"},{"t":11503,"text":"who are extraordinary busy And saying can we speak to"},{"t":11506,"text":"you just about graffiti? I don't think that's a good"},{"t":11509,"text":"use of time So I'm not... I'm not convinced that"},{"t":11512,"text":"this is the right path ahead I gather that people"},{"t":11514,"text":"are frustrated with graffiti It obviously costs the city a"},{"t":11517,"text":"lot I'm just not sure that this points is in"},{"t":11520,"text":"the direction of any solutions I would be much more"},{"t":11522,"text":"interested in a systemic or a holistic approach I mean"},{"t":11525,"text":"How about stepdad? What could SEPTED be done? What other"},{"t":11528,"text":"community safety principles can be brought to bear. How do"},{"t":11531,"text":"we... Get at the upstream causes of this sort of"},{"t":11536,"text":"vandalism? I'm personally more interested in those things And maybe"},{"t":11539,"text":"learning from other cities that have had a chance to"},{"t":11542,"text":"reduce vandalism I don't think that just creating a whole"},{"t":11545,"text":"regular TORI regime for small business owners and operators. Is"},{"t":11548,"text":"gonna solve the issue I think if people really want"},{"t":11550,"text":"to do graffiti They're gonna get a Sharpie pen They're"},{"t":11553,"text":"gonna buy spray paint online So honing it in just"},{"t":11556,"text":"on like spray paint in the city To me is"},{"t":11559,"text":"just a bit in myopic And not going to solve"},{"t":11561,"text":"anything So at this point I can't support this I"},{"t":11564,"text":"could support maybe another approach to thinking about vandalism and"},{"t":11567,"text":"graffiti But this one for me is y to the"},{"t":11569,"text":"mark. Thanks Mayor Thank you Councillor Thompson. Thanks Mayor Uh..."},{"t":11577,"text":"And thanks to my colleague who were earlier mentioned The"},{"t":11580,"text":"Chinatown cleanup I was one of the people out there."},{"t":11584,"text":"Um... scraping things off. And I should mention that... Former"},{"t":11588,"text":"councillors Charlane Thornton Joe who organised it is out there"},{"t":11591,"text":"every morning doing that work Um... So I'm grateful to"},{"t":11594,"text":"her for that Um... I also don't like tagging I"},{"t":11598,"text":"don't like low effort tags especially over Nice mural art"},{"t":11602,"text":"Which I have seen. Um... I'm interested to hear more"},{"t":11607,"text":"I've been following along with the discussion I'm interested here"},{"t":11609,"text":"more about whether these measures would likely make a difference"},{"t":11613,"text":"Whether the other measures that might be more Uh... Useful"},{"t":11617,"text":"or achieve more or be more cost - effective Um..."},{"t":11620,"text":"I'm... I don't think anyone here at this table is"},{"t":11623,"text":"under the illusion that what we do with this motion"},{"t":11626,"text":"is going to eliminate all graffiti in the city And"},{"t":11628,"text":"I don't think that that's the intention Uh... Based on"},{"t":11631,"text":"assuming not. Um... What effect it will have with... Would"},{"t":11636,"text":"remain to be seen Um... I would Would have been"},{"t":11641,"text":"very grateful for Vic PD to have been able to"},{"t":11643,"text":"comment on this Uh... As we've discussed it Uh... I'll"},{"t":11648,"text":"listen to my colleagues for any further comments. Thank you"},{"t":11651,"text":"very much I'll let everyone who's here has had a"},{"t":11654,"text":"chance to speak once We'll go for a second round"},{"t":11656,"text":"Councillor Gardner. It's amazing how things can be blown up."},{"t":11663,"text":"I remember years ago. I Know that we have a"},{"t":11665,"text":"different director of parks Probably two different directions with parks"},{"t":11669,"text":"And this is when James Bay got involved with trying"},{"t":11672,"text":"to remove Um... A lot of the graffiti Because I"},{"t":11675,"text":"think we had a very high level at that time"},{"t":11677,"text":"It's not the highest now So I'm not suggesting that"},{"t":11679,"text":"But at that time There was someone at City Hall"},{"t":11681,"text":"who wasn't in Committee Safety Wellbeing But with another area"},{"t":11685,"text":"He's still around And he would provide people with some"},{"t":11688,"text":"information And also Um... Some materials so that Different neighbourhoods"},{"t":11694,"text":"could start moving graffiti If they had work teams And"},{"t":11697,"text":"that was great And it worked really actually quite wild"},{"t":11700,"text":"Didn't take it down But I'm thinking of the broken"},{"t":11702,"text":"windows Effect Is that New York? Was it New York"},{"t":11705,"text":"guys Broken windows The more you let things go The"},{"t":11708,"text":"more is accepted and normal And therefore the problem grows"},{"t":11712,"text":"Because a lot of people don't think it's that normal"},{"t":11714,"text":"To have graffiti everywhere. And so it is a problem"},{"t":11717,"text":"I think by This doesn't have to be quite as"},{"t":11720,"text":"big as people are thinking it may be But when"},{"t":11723,"text":"we look at the work And I'm not talking about"},{"t":11725,"text":"the volunteers But even of the money here that's been"},{"t":11728,"text":"600, 000 dollars really And that's not really touching it"},{"t":11732,"text":"So I think we also need a bit more of"},{"t":11734,"text":"an Attitudental change too Perhaps But I don't think it"},{"t":11737,"text":"has to be something that's a killer dealer That goes"},{"t":11740,"text":"to community safety and well - being It becomes a"},{"t":11742,"text":"major effort for them I really don't. And I think"},{"t":11746,"text":"that it could be handled much more subtly by staff"},{"t":11749,"text":"Uh... In a way Even looking to the staff Lakers"},{"t":11751,"text":"Because at the time When I was dealing with Citystaff"},{"t":11754,"text":"again This is... Before the pandemic In different staff too"},{"t":11759,"text":"They knew exactly... Not exactly They knew nicknames for some"},{"t":11763,"text":"of their major Tigers They kind of knew they were"},{"t":11766,"text":"and they know how they float around They could even"},{"t":11768,"text":"tell that one of them... Move to different part of"},{"t":11770,"text":"the City Because all of a sudden the tags change"},{"t":11771,"text":"And another part of the city So there is some"},{"t":11773,"text":"of this going on And it's no one and people"},{"t":11776,"text":"don't always know who they are The odd times someone's"},{"t":11779,"text":"caught And something happens. And nowhere Did I rethink that"},{"t":11782,"text":"I was teenagers or necessarily even younger kids? It doesn't"},{"t":11785,"text":"matter who it is. It matters that they are defacing"},{"t":11789,"text":"public property and private property. And I think that we"},{"t":11793,"text":"should do something about it And this is an attempt"},{"t":11796,"text":"This one is a starting point of Let's look at"},{"t":11798,"text":"a bit more holistically And see what we can do"},{"t":11801,"text":"And I'm not expecting Community Safety and well - being"},{"t":11804,"text":"to go and take all some staff Office with legal"},{"t":11807,"text":"and do something else Let's explore and see what is"},{"t":11811,"text":"being done in some other areas of the country To"},{"t":11814,"text":"address this. That would be a nice simple starting point"},{"t":11817,"text":"to see if there's A way we can go. And"},{"t":11822,"text":"so that's why I support this Thank You very much"},{"t":11825,"text":"Anybody else. Ankym Um Thanks Question to either the mover"},{"t":11832,"text":"or staff Whoever might have an answer Was there a"},{"t":11835,"text":"thought given to sticker tagging as well. That's rounded Any"},{"t":11841,"text":"thoughts? No. No? Okay Um. I wonder if."},{"t":11854,"text":"Okay I'm just gonna go ahead and say it Is"},{"t":11856,"text":"there an openness to postponing this conversation to Beef It"},{"t":11863,"text":"up to consider sticker tags as well So that any"},{"t":11867,"text":"consultation also just Is expanded Or am I making a"},{"t":11873,"text":"mountain out of a mole Hill? And the reason I"},{"t":11874,"text":"ask this is because Um... There are stickers that I've"},{"t":11878,"text":"seen around town that are suspected to be affiliated with"},{"t":11881,"text":"very problematic Um... Folks. Um... Supremacist groups. And... I see"},{"t":11889,"text":"this as a potential Potential way to maybe Um... Look"},{"t":11895,"text":"into that as well Or maybe it's completely out of"},{"t":11898,"text":"line I'm not sure But yeah Would there be an"},{"t":11903,"text":"openness to postponing this to see if this could be..."},{"t":11908,"text":"Lumped in Or is it very much streamlined And it's"},{"t":11913,"text":"focused on spray paint. COU You are always Of course"},{"t":11917,"text":"any member council is well within the rights to suggest"},{"t":11920,"text":"a postponement motion or without directions But perhaps we'll go"},{"t":11924,"text":"first to the mover to see if there is a"},{"t":11926,"text":"comment on that. Was this originally intended just for paint?"},{"t":11932,"text":"I would suggest that if... Mayor of staff Come back"},{"t":11936,"text":"saying By the way A huge gigantic problem On this"},{"t":11940,"text":"as well Is with stickers Then I presume our staff"},{"t":11945,"text":"are going to come back and say And tell us"},{"t":11947,"text":"about that Okay great Which point you could then add"},{"t":11949,"text":"something in your motion Okay that's the answer I needed"},{"t":11952,"text":"Thank you That's it. Thank you very much Anybody else"},{"t":11955,"text":"on this. Just... Yep Go ahead goes round. Thanks Mayor"},{"t":11960,"text":"Oh I'll just at least wrap up from my point"},{"t":11963,"text":"Not necessarily be the last person Under no circumstances Is"},{"t":11966,"text":"this going to solve the problem So to speak The"},{"t":11970,"text":"other thing is I don't pretend as a councillor to"},{"t":11974,"text":"speak on behalf of nations as to what they have"},{"t":11976,"text":"time or what they want to put their resources towards"},{"t":11978,"text":"So we'll let them decide that Vic PD They don't"},{"t":11983,"text":"deal with most of this stuff It's the city that"},{"t":11984,"text":"does That being said It is a criminal code Violation"},{"t":11990,"text":"under mischief And there's property damage Over 5, under 5,"},{"t":11993,"text":"000 There are municipal bylaw penalties for this Which can"},{"t":11997,"text":"be fines of 750 dollars And I believe property"},{"t":12007,"text":"owners not removing their graffiti So there's already Um... Things"},{"t":12011,"text":"that are in place I And on the issue I"},{"t":12015,"text":"don't expect suddenly that our city staff are going to"},{"t":12020,"text":"give up what they're doing Lately This has been getting"},{"t":12022,"text":"a lot of media of attention. And so I've been"},{"t":12024,"text":"asked about this and been asked some of these Similar"},{"t":12027,"text":"questions I do not expect our staff to drop everything"},{"t":12030,"text":"As a matter of fact One of the suggestions I"},{"t":12032,"text":"said is It might actually be something that comes before"},{"t":12035,"text":"the next Council I don't expect it to be done"},{"t":12039,"text":"immediately All I know is that for one reason or"},{"t":12042,"text":"another And some of it was just things that came"},{"t":12043,"text":"our way Or sometimes we were told Hey we got"},{"t":12046,"text":"a lot on our plate I kept putting this off."},{"t":12050,"text":"And I don't want to put this off any further"},{"t":12052,"text":"We hear so much about people who are so disgusted"},{"t":12056,"text":"by how much is going on that I would just"},{"t":12059,"text":"like us to try something Anything to see if it"},{"t":12063,"text":"works If our staff come back and say You will"},{"t":12065,"text":"get this much benefit for this much cost and effort"},{"t":12069,"text":"Uh... Then chances are I'm going to say that's not"},{"t":12071,"text":"worth it But if they come back and say Actually"},{"t":12074,"text":"we have found done properly This can have a huge"},{"t":12076,"text":"impact and maybe even just some of it can be"},{"t":12080,"text":"on education for retailers Education for people who have spray"},{"t":12084,"text":"painter on their house Whatever it is I'm not the"},{"t":12087,"text":"expert I'm not the one who I'm not the one"},{"t":12091,"text":"who's expected to know everything on this. I want to"},{"t":12093,"text":"turn it over to staff and say What do you"},{"t":12095,"text":"think? Thanks so much Count Secure Dona. Thanks Mayor I"},{"t":12100,"text":"just want to clarify In my reading of this motion"},{"t":12103,"text":"It says Including consideration of da da da da da"},{"t":12108,"text":"So my presumption is that no actual consultation would occur"},{"t":12112,"text":"with all the groups mentioned there in advance of a"},{"t":12116,"text":"staff report. It could be the outcome of a step"},{"t":12119,"text":"after a staff report But I'm not to presume that"},{"t":12123,"text":"a whole bunch of consultation is going to take place"},{"t":12125,"text":"in preparation to write a report Is that correct? I"},{"t":12127,"text":"would read that as saying that these are suggestions for"},{"t":12130,"text":"stuff to consider in their analysis of options And so"},{"t":12133,"text":"if other selection of the other one through seven points"},{"t":12138,"text":"Provided sufficient information for there to be advice to council"},{"t":12142,"text":"on options That would be up to staff. I would"},{"t":12146,"text":"personally like to clarify though That they're not going to"},{"t":12148,"text":"go out and spend a huge amount of staff capacity"},{"t":12151,"text":"on a consultation Prior to council making a decision if"},{"t":12154,"text":"there is a decision So I would like some clarification"},{"t":12156,"text":"that a staff report does not involve a bunch of"},{"t":12158,"text":"consultation. At this point Ms. Jenkins Would you like to"},{"t":12161,"text":"weigh in on that more generally since this is not"},{"t":12164,"text":"yet determined as to which staff would be doing this"},{"t":12166,"text":"work Thank you through mayor through you mayor Yes I"},{"t":12170,"text":"believe we would take kind of a light touch approach"},{"t":12173,"text":"to how we could address this prior to coming back"},{"t":12177,"text":"Okay in that case I won't I won't attempt to"},{"t":12179,"text":"amend it Thanks Thank you very much. Anybody else. Not"},{"t":12184,"text":"seeing any other speakers all those in favor. I'll be"},{"t":12188,"text":"Councillor Kim that would be myself That would become Sir"},{"t":12191,"text":"Coleman Councillor Hammond Councillor Gardner Count - Sur Thompson in"},{"t":12193,"text":"opposition Ponsor Dell and Councillor Caradon I just noting that"},{"t":12198,"text":"Councillor Loughton has not yet been able to rejoin us"},{"t":12200,"text":"So that is adopted. Noting to an opposition. That would"},{"t":12205,"text":"take us on to a closed meeting But none is"},{"t":12207,"text":"required at committee today And so I would look for"},{"t":12209,"text":"a motion to adjourn Thanks Councillor Coleman Second My Councillor"},{"t":12212,"text":"Kim always in favor Anyone opposed That's unanimous Uh we'll"},{"t":12217,"text":"just we won't take a long break We'll just wait"},{"t":12219,"text":"long enough for stuff to convert us into our daytime"},{"t":12221,"text":"council meeting And then we'll begin again."}],"words":32632,"fetchedAt":"2026-10-03T05:38:13.762Z"}