{"videoId":"https://video.isilive.ca/victoria/Compact%20Encoder%201349_COTW_2026-09-03-12-02.mp4","source":"isilive_vtt","segments":[{"t":38,"text":"Council's Committee of the Whole. I can't believe I just"},{"t":42,"text":"said it was September 3rd. Uh, welcome back from our"},{"t":46,"text":"brief hiatus from meetings in August. We are a full complement"},{"t":50,"text":"today. Councillors Kim and Thompson are joining us online."},{"t":55,"text":"Today we have for our consideration a late council member motion,"},{"t":60,"text":"5 sets of minutes, 1 item of unfinished business,"},{"t":63,"text":"1 land use matter, and 1 staff report."},{"t":67,"text":"But of course, before we begin our work together, we always like to take a"},{"t":71,"text":"moment to ground ourselves and our work and all of the efforts that we make"},{"t":74,"text":"on behalf of the city, to reflect upon the decades"},{"t":78,"text":"and generations of work and stewardship undertaken by the"},{"t":82,"text":"2 nations on whose territories our city sits in in its entirety,"},{"t":85,"text":"the Coast Salish Nation and the Songhees Nation. Both of these nations"},{"t":90,"text":"and their core families and members have literally spent"},{"t":96,"text":"dozens and dozens and dozens of generations"},{"t":100,"text":"ensuring that the lands on which we sit now and the waters"},{"t":103,"text":"that surround them here on southern Vancouver Island have been kept in"},{"t":107,"text":"the best possible condition in some areas in pristine"},{"t":111,"text":"condition, in others in recovering positions,"},{"t":114,"text":"so that we can in fact have this wonderful place to live and"},{"t":117,"text":"work, raise our families and do our best."},{"t":121,"text":"It is an important thing for us to recognize as we continue to navigate"},{"t":125,"text":"a complex relationship with the nations and with our residents, both Indigenous"},{"t":129,"text":"and non-Indigenous, and to renew our commitment to continuing"},{"t":133,"text":"that work in a collegial and egalitarian way."},{"t":137,"text":"With that, we always like to say thank you in their language, and that is"},{"t":139,"text":"to say, \"Hajjikasiem\" or \"Hajjikasiem nikolia.\" And that is simply to"},{"t":143,"text":"say thank you and to honor those folks who have taken a moment in each"},{"t":147,"text":"day to pause, to reflect, and to make"},{"t":150,"text":"a decision that will in some way cause an action to be taken"},{"t":154,"text":"that will hopefully increase the life, betterment of some individual's life."},{"t":159,"text":"So with that, I would say, \"Hajjikasiem,\" and raise my hands and welcome and thanks."},{"t":163,"text":"And offer our community's thanks to the nations."},{"t":168,"text":"I'm going to depart momentarily in the Chair's remarks for something that"},{"t":172,"text":"is less to do with the city and more on a personal matter, which I"},{"t":175,"text":"rarely do. And that is to note the passing of Gloria Steinem,"},{"t":179,"text":"who at the age of 92 yesterday left us here, and who,"},{"t":183,"text":"for those of us of a certain age, would remember her as part of a"},{"t":187,"text":"remarkable quartet of women along with Angela Davis,"},{"t":191,"text":"Mary Daly, Andrea Dworkin, and Audre Lorde, who among"},{"t":195,"text":"them made the life that many young"},{"t":198,"text":"women enjoy right now possible in the face of extraordinary"},{"t":202,"text":"opposition and in the face of"},{"t":206,"text":"a system which essentially began with the understanding that women had"},{"t":210,"text":"no rights to virtually anything. And when you fast forward"},{"t":213,"text":"through several generations through which they lived and in which they"},{"t":217,"text":"all created extraordinary change. It sometimes"},{"t":221,"text":"is impossible to even imagine a different life that is what we have"},{"t":224,"text":"now. And in the last 24 hours, I've been actually randomly"},{"t":228,"text":"testing, including with some of our staff, whether anyone has"},{"t":232,"text":"ever even heard the name Gloria Steinem. And in fact, I have yet"},{"t":236,"text":"to find someone under the age of 40 who has."},{"t":240,"text":"And so I think it is important for those of us who perhaps remember"},{"t":244,"text":"these people as icons, as certainly Gloria Steinem and all those other women have been"},{"t":248,"text":"for me, is to take it upon ourselves to recall that it is"},{"t":252,"text":"part of our responsibility to remind the people who"},{"t":256,"text":"enjoy the avails of their work of just"},{"t":260,"text":"exactly who is responsible. There are many,"},{"t":263,"text":"many more women than those 4 or 5 that I have just mentioned who should"},{"t":267,"text":"be thanked. And hopefully those of us who have that memory and that arrangement"},{"t":271,"text":"will do so. I had the great honor of meeting Gloria Steinem twice"},{"t":274,"text":"in my life, once as a young woman once when I was a young woman"},{"t":279,"text":"in law school, and the other more recently, just a few years ago, at a"},{"t":281,"text":"conference back east, a conference that I attended specifically"},{"t":285,"text":"to be able to hear her and meet her again, and it was indeed a"},{"t":288,"text":"great, great honor. So I hope that just in remarking upon"},{"t":292,"text":"this today, it reminds us all that it is important for us to take the"},{"t":295,"text":"time to remember those people who have,"},{"t":299,"text":"throughout their lives, made an effort to change the way we have the opportunities"},{"t":303,"text":"to live. So, RIP Gloria."},{"t":309,"text":"We come up then to the introduction of late items, which we do occasionally have,"},{"t":312,"text":"and today is one of those opportunities. There is a proposal"},{"t":316,"text":"to include in our agenda today a council member motion entitled the public statement"},{"t":321,"text":"and position on the federal designation of the West Coast Pipeline as a project of"},{"t":324,"text":"national interest. Since it has been proposed today, I just want"},{"t":328,"text":"to remind us and the public that there are a number of procedural applications that"},{"t":331,"text":"we need to consider. There are 3 sections of our procedures bylaw. They would be"},{"t":334,"text":"section Section 19 sub 1 sub b, which requires"},{"t":338,"text":"submission of a late item at least 48 hours before the meeting at which it"},{"t":341,"text":"is to be considered. Section 19 sub 1 sub c, which requires the"},{"t":345,"text":"late motion to include a rationale noting the time sensitivity for its late consideration."},{"t":350,"text":"And Section 15 sub 6, which requires distribution"},{"t":353,"text":"to council members before the matter is to be considered. All of those requirements"},{"t":358,"text":"have been met, and so in considering this item, there is one additional aspect,"},{"t":361,"text":"of course, as should we vote on this. Our procedural bylaw requires"},{"t":365,"text":"that under Section 15 Sub 5, that two-thirds majority vote to"},{"t":369,"text":"add it to a late item— as a late item to the agenda."},{"t":374,"text":"So having said all of that, I am going to ask Councillor Kim, who is"},{"t":377,"text":"proposing this, who's joining us online, to move that this item,"},{"t":381,"text":"which is entitled, as I say, Public Statement and Position on the Federal Designation"},{"t":385,"text":"of the West Coast Pipeline as a Project of National Interest, be proposed"},{"t":389,"text":"and added to today's agenda as a new item J1, which would be our sole"},{"t":391,"text":"item of new business Councilor"},{"t":396,"text":"Kim, would you make that motion, please?"},{"t":399,"text":"As you have decreed, Mayor. Very good. Is there a seconder to add"},{"t":403,"text":"this to the agenda today?"},{"t":408,"text":"Councilor Dell is seconding the adding it to the agenda. So,"},{"t":411,"text":"Councilor Kim, I'm going to ask you to very briefly motivate only on the time"},{"t":414,"text":"sensitivity of this and why it requires consideration as an"},{"t":418,"text":"item today. I'll just remind Council that that's all we're considering at this"},{"t":422,"text":"time, whether or not we wish to consider this as part of today's agenda."},{"t":425,"text":"Should it be added to the agenda, we will have time later in the agenda"},{"t":429,"text":"to discuss the substance of the actual motion. Councillor Kim, why do we"},{"t":432,"text":"need to consider this today? Thank you. Um,"},{"t":435,"text":"the deadline for submission to the federal government"},{"t":439,"text":"on this particular item is coming up, I believe"},{"t":443,"text":"September 18th was what I said in the motion, and,"},{"t":447,"text":"um, I wanted to provide enough time for not only the mayor's"},{"t":451,"text":"office to write said public statement and position if it"},{"t":456,"text":"passes, but also to encourage other municipalities in"},{"t":459,"text":"the province to take similar action. Very good. Thank you,"},{"t":463,"text":"Councillor Dell. Anything to add as a seconder? No, nothing to add. Anything else"},{"t":467,"text":"on the— just on the matter of whether or not to add this to today's"},{"t":470,"text":"agenda? Okay. Say— oh yes,"},{"t":473,"text":"go ahead, Councillor Coleman. Just a question of process,"},{"t":477,"text":"Your Worship. You said J1. J1 is closed meeting if required."},{"t":481,"text":"Yes, it would require us to actually adjust the entire agenda"},{"t":486,"text":"if this is added, and we'll do that next. If this is added, we'll add"},{"t":488,"text":"that next. Thank you. And propose an amended agenda. Yeah."},{"t":493,"text":"Good catch. Anything else on whether or not to add this to the"},{"t":497,"text":"agenda today? Just checking online. Nope. All right. All those in favor of"},{"t":501,"text":"adding this to the agenda today? Councillor Dell,"},{"t":505,"text":"Councillor Thomson, Councillor Caradonna, Councillor— thank you,"},{"t":509,"text":"Lauten. It's been a long break. Myself, Councillor Colman,"},{"t":513,"text":"Councillor Hammond, and Councillor Kim."},{"t":517,"text":"In opposition, Councillor Gardner. So noting one in opposition,"},{"t":520,"text":"we will add that to the agenda today. And as was noted,"},{"t":524,"text":"I will add that as a new item of J1, an item"},{"t":528,"text":"of new business, which will then add what is currently at J to fall to"},{"t":531,"text":"item K, and we'll we'll consider that as an amended agenda item"},{"t":534,"text":"next. Moving on then to item"},{"t":538,"text":"D, this is the approval of the agenda, and so I would ask someone to"},{"t":541,"text":"move the amended agenda that will include the previous item"},{"t":545,"text":"as voted upon. Councillor Colman, would you like to move the amended agenda?"},{"t":548,"text":"Thank you very much. Councillor Cardona is seconding. Any discussion on the amended main"},{"t":552,"text":"agenda? No. All those in favour?"},{"t":557,"text":"Anyone opposed? That is unanimous. Moving on"},{"t":560,"text":"now to the consent agenda. There are a number of items proposed for the consent"},{"t":564,"text":"agenda. Just for the information of the public, proposed are"},{"t":568,"text":"all of the minutes. I will read them for the record. This is item F1,"},{"t":571,"text":"the minutes from the Committee of the Whole meeting held June 18th of"},{"t":574,"text":"this year. Item F2, the minutes from the Committee of the Whole meeting held June"},{"t":578,"text":"25th, 2026. Item F3,"},{"t":582,"text":"the minutes from the Committee of the Whole meeting held July 2nd of this year."},{"t":585,"text":"Item F4, the minutes from the Committee of the Whole meeting held July 9th."},{"t":589,"text":"Item F5, the minutes from the Committee of the Whole meeting held July 16th."},{"t":593,"text":"And Item H1, the 770 Pemberton Road rezoning application"},{"t":597,"text":"and development variance permit from the neighbourhood of Rockland, which I'm aware a"},{"t":601,"text":"number of councillors would like to pull, and so I will, in fact, remove that"},{"t":605,"text":"from the consent agenda. So, in fact, our consent agenda is comprised only"},{"t":609,"text":"of 5 sets of minutes. June 18th, June 25th,"},{"t":612,"text":"July 2nd, July 9th, and July 16th. Anyone wish to"},{"t":616,"text":"add anything else or remove any of those minutes?"},{"t":620,"text":"Not seeing any of that. It's only to move the minutes, the consent agenda."},{"t":622,"text":"Thanks, Councillor Colman. Seconded by Councillor"},{"t":627,"text":"Loughton. All those in favour of the consent agenda? Anyone opposed?"},{"t":630,"text":"That is unanimous. Thank you very much for that."},{"t":634,"text":"That would usually move us on to consideration of the minutes, Section F, but as"},{"t":637,"text":"we just noted, all 5 of those have been added to the consent agenda."},{"t":641,"text":"So again, items F1 through F5, the minutes from June 18th,"},{"t":644,"text":"June 25th, July 2nd, July 9th, and July 16th,"},{"t":648,"text":"all approved as part of the consent agenda. They will come forward at"},{"t":652,"text":"a future committee meeting, or rather council meeting, daytime council meeting for final"},{"t":656,"text":"ratification. That takes us on then to item G."},{"t":660,"text":"This is an item of unfinished business, reporting back from"},{"t":664,"text":"staff on the proposal to establish a by-name list for the City of Victoria."},{"t":668,"text":"I believe this is Ms. Webb and/or Mr."},{"t":671,"text":"Rantucci, or perhaps both of them, who are going to provide a"},{"t":675,"text":"verbal report back response update."},{"t":679,"text":"Let's just give them a moment to get settled,"},{"t":683,"text":"and then we'll hand the floor over, would appear,"},{"t":685,"text":"start— starting with Mr. Rantucci or Ms. Webb."},{"t":692,"text":"Good morning, Mayor and Council. My name is Sarah Webb, and I'm the Assistant Director"},{"t":696,"text":"of Corporate Planning and Strategic Partnerships here with our Community Safety and Wellbeing Department."},{"t":701,"text":"Last month, Council directed staff to reach out to BC Housing"},{"t":704,"text":"and CRD to get an update on the implementation of and communicate"},{"t":709,"text":"our support for accelerating the implementation of the federal HIFIS"},{"t":712,"text":"system. As a reminder, HIFIS stands"},{"t":716,"text":"for Homeless— Homeless Individuals and Families Information"},{"t":720,"text":"System. This is the national system designed by the Government"},{"t":723,"text":"of Canada, designed to support day-to-day operational activities"},{"t":727,"text":"and coordination of service providers and sort— support organizations to"},{"t":731,"text":"help individuals experiencing homelessness access coordinated care"},{"t":735,"text":"and housing solutions. HIFAS is a comprehensive data"},{"t":739,"text":"collection and case management system. The system enables"},{"t":744,"text":"registered service providers within a same community to access,"},{"t":747,"text":"collect, and share real-time local data to ensure individuals and"},{"t":751,"text":"families accessing services are prioritized and refers to— referred"},{"t":755,"text":"to appropriate services at the correct time."},{"t":758,"text":"While a by-name list is an important component of HIFAS, a by-name list alone"},{"t":763,"text":"has limited ability to connect people to housing."},{"t":766,"text":"The effectiveness of the system comes from that broader functionality surrounding"},{"t":770,"text":"a list: assessment, prioritization,"},{"t":773,"text":"referrals, case matching, vacancy matching,"},{"t":777,"text":"and coordination amongst service providers."},{"t":780,"text":"Together, all of these elements enable communities to match individuals in"},{"t":783,"text":"need to housing and support services. Here in"},{"t":787,"text":"Victoria, the Local Backbone Team is working on several items"},{"t":790,"text":"to ensure the capital region is ready, willing, and able to support the"},{"t":793,"text":"HIFAS implementation when provincial rollout begins."},{"t":797,"text":"The initial phase of this program is focused on partners,"},{"t":800,"text":"sites, and programs that are funded through BC Housing and/or"},{"t":805,"text":"the federal Reaching Homes program. Current activities include"},{"t":809,"text":"completing the regional system of mapping to identify all organizations,"},{"t":813,"text":"programs, and services, and staff who may require HIFAS access,"},{"t":817,"text":"establishing local governance structures to support coordinated access and HIFAS"},{"t":821,"text":"rollout, and the CRD has now hired a HIFAS administrator position."},{"t":826,"text":"There are regional conversations underway with service providers to discuss"},{"t":830,"text":"practical topics like referrals, data sharing, and system integration."},{"t":835,"text":"And all of this work right now is being done for ensuring a"},{"t":839,"text":"smoother onboarding process, providing clear roles and governance structures,"},{"t":842,"text":"and allowing for consistent practices across the region."},{"t":846,"text":"As it stands, both BC Housing and CRD report that their current"},{"t":850,"text":"focus is on HIFAS readiness. They're building the right foundations"},{"t":854,"text":"now to support a more successful rollout and coordinated access system in"},{"t":857,"text":"the future. Staff are expecting an update later this"},{"t":861,"text":"month on the HIFAS implementation at our upcoming Homelessness Response"},{"t":866,"text":"Leadership Table. We will keep council updated later towards the"},{"t":869,"text":"end of September. Until such time that the HIFAS system"},{"t":873,"text":"comes into effect, BC Housing has been collaborating with"},{"t":876,"text":"outreach partners over the last 2 months to develop a shared by-name list"},{"t":881,"text":"through data collection activities, cross-referencing existing information"},{"t":885,"text":"using the Housing Connection system, and while adhering to privacy"},{"t":889,"text":"and consent provisions. While it does have limited functionality,"},{"t":892,"text":"This work forms a basis for coordinated outreach schedule"},{"t":896,"text":"and more importantly can help to highlight the scale and diversity of resource"},{"t":900,"text":"needs to support individuals experiencing homelessness. So as"},{"t":904,"text":"it stands, CRD and BC Housing are moving forward with the HIFAS rollout."},{"t":907,"text":"We will be getting an update later on in September,"},{"t":911,"text":"but staff were encouraged to hear about the activities underway to help build"},{"t":915,"text":"the basis for the provincial rollout. I will be pleased to provide"},{"t":918,"text":"more information in the coming weeks ahead, and this just concludes So that's my verbal"},{"t":922,"text":"report back. Thank you very much, Assistant Director Webb."},{"t":925,"text":"That's good news. And as someone who's been aware"},{"t":930,"text":"of the efforts to bring HIFAS to reality for the last 14"},{"t":934,"text":"years, I'm encouraged to hear that you're hopeful."},{"t":937,"text":"Anything else? Any more questions or comments? Sounds as if we will get ongoing"},{"t":942,"text":"conversation. Yes, go ahead. Go ahead, Councillor Gardner."},{"t":946,"text":"Questions? Thank you so much. Just a reminder, there's no decisions for us today."},{"t":949,"text":"My continued— Questions are welcome. Okay, I'm sorry, my computer wasn't working."},{"t":953,"text":"What time element was going for the rollout? When do you expect"},{"t":957,"text":"this to be underway? Ms. Webb?"},{"t":961,"text":"Staff will be getting an update at the end of September on the next steps"},{"t":965,"text":"with rollout, so I do not have that information today. So we don't know if"},{"t":968,"text":"it's going to be this year? I'm unable to comment on that. Okay, no,"},{"t":971,"text":"that's just what I wanted to try and confirm. So thank"},{"t":974,"text":"you for your report. Now, as mentioned, on July 30th,"},{"t":978,"text":"we had heard about building relationships with those on the streets in the city,"},{"t":982,"text":"uh, contracts, etc., or provided grants to several organizations to"},{"t":986,"text":"do this. Now, at that time, meaning in July, I had asked for"},{"t":990,"text":"a list of organizations involved with relationship aspect of identifying those on"},{"t":994,"text":"the streets and in our parks, organizations charged with attempting to get people on"},{"t":998,"text":"this, uh, on the streets and in our park support"},{"t":1002,"text":"or housing. And organizations funded to monitor"},{"t":1006,"text":"those on the streets, or other organizations which have been delegated the task of"},{"t":1010,"text":"relationship building with those on the streets and in our parks. And I've"},{"t":1014,"text":"also asked where, uh, organizations on the list have received grant or contract"},{"t":1019,"text":"funding. I wanted to see dollar amounts by year for 2024,"},{"t":1023,"text":"2025, and 2026, uh, up to June."},{"t":1027,"text":"So on July 30th, I was told this information would be provided with your report"},{"t":1031,"text":"to this motion that's before us now. Uh, will you be presenting"},{"t":1035,"text":"that today? Uh, through the mayor, my apologies,"},{"t":1038,"text":"I, I'll be reporting back through, uh, in our community safety well-being update"},{"t":1042,"text":"on October 1st. So I was bringing that all information forward."},{"t":1046,"text":"Council asked for several items. I wasn't going to be discussing that"},{"t":1051,"text":"today. Great, so I should get that on October 1st. Thank you very much."},{"t":1055,"text":"Thank you, Councillor Luton. Thank you,"},{"t":1058,"text":"through you, Mayor. Just a quick question of clarification."},{"t":1062,"text":"So we're going to be hearing back about HIFAS later this month,"},{"t":1065,"text":"hopefully. But in the meantime, B.C. Housing is using"},{"t":1069,"text":"a by-name list to— is that now just for with us,"},{"t":1074,"text":"or is it with the region? And how"},{"t":1077,"text":"is that working to help us with any prevention measures?"},{"t":1084,"text":"Through the Mayor, so the BC Housing is working with several service providers"},{"t":1089,"text":"in the City of Victoria. So it is focused on the City of"},{"t":1092,"text":"Victoria, and they're using kind of combining their efforts"},{"t":1096,"text":"both on outreach and cross-referencing data."},{"t":1100,"text":"So that information is available now and"},{"t":1103,"text":"has been the work that has happened over the summer, and so that is"},{"t":1107,"text":"now part of the focus of as an activity"},{"t":1111,"text":"to be able to continue implementation"},{"t":1115,"text":"around homelessness responsive initiatives. So I would say we're in a better position than we"},{"t":1118,"text":"were at the end of June. Okay, that's, that's good news. Are they,"},{"t":1122,"text":"are they looking to work with any of the other municipalities"},{"t":1126,"text":"in the region? Like, are they looking regionally on this, or is the focus just"},{"t":1131,"text":"on us? Through the mayor, this is a specific request that"},{"t":1135,"text":"the City of Victoria has put forward forward because we wanted to be able to"},{"t":1138,"text":"have the increased access and confidence that"},{"t":1142,"text":"we were sharing information amongst service providers just here in"},{"t":1145,"text":"the City of Victoria. Across the capital region would be a broader initiative"},{"t":1149,"text":"associated with that. Okay, thanks for that. And then just one final question,"},{"t":1152,"text":"Mayor, if I may. Um, um,"},{"t":1155,"text":"one of the main reasons why I, I brought this up was the prevention"},{"t":1159,"text":"end, because the by-name list helps with inflow"},{"t":1163,"text":"and outflow. So we have"},{"t":1167,"text":"created 242 net new spaces. We've moved 75"},{"t":1171,"text":"people out of the park. We've housed many people."},{"t":1174,"text":"We're visibly— it's not looking like"},{"t":1178,"text":"we're making a difference out there. And it's because there's more people coming into homelessness."},{"t":1182,"text":"So my concern was really what are we doing on prevention."},{"t":1186,"text":"So is there Is there data being collected on why"},{"t":1190,"text":"people are entering homelessness? And is BC Housing— do"},{"t":1195,"text":"they have prevention measures that they could—"},{"t":1198,"text":"are working on on their own or working on with us?"},{"t":1202,"text":"Is any of that work happening? Ms. Webb."},{"t":1206,"text":"Through the Mayor, annually the Point-in-Time Count, which occurs every October,"},{"t":1211,"text":"coordinated through the CRD with a service provider, I believe I believe it's a"},{"t":1215,"text":"Community Social Planning Council delivers that, do do a comprehensive"},{"t":1219,"text":"point-in-time count to understand who is out there across the"},{"t":1223,"text":"capital region, but also what are some of their needs, how did they"},{"t":1227,"text":"get into homelessness, and what are their— what are the supports that they're seeking"},{"t":1231,"text":"out. So absolutely, I think that each year the intention is"},{"t":1234,"text":"to better understand what— how people do get into homelessness"},{"t":1238,"text":"and then look for opportunities to support"},{"t":1243,"text":"that prevention aspect. I think that as we are delivering our Community Safety and Wellbeing"},{"t":1246,"text":"Plan, that is exactly the kinds of work that we need to be doing"},{"t":1249,"text":"on the upstream side of things, which is how do we support"},{"t":1254,"text":"people in experiencing risk factors and"},{"t":1258,"text":"ensure that they've got the right safety net around them so that they're not getting"},{"t":1261,"text":"into homelessness. So I would expect that we'll have updated data after"},{"t":1266,"text":"the point-in-time time count again in October, and that would be used not only by"},{"t":1270,"text":"the city but agencies like BC Housing or Island Health to determine"},{"t":1273,"text":"how best they can deliver their services. Okay, thank you very much. And then just"},{"t":1277,"text":"so we'll, we'll get another update on, on HIFAS with the Community Safety and"},{"t":1282,"text":"Wellbeing update. Would you say October 1st? Did you say it was October 1st?"},{"t":1285,"text":"October 1st. Through the mayor? Yes. I don't know what information we'll"},{"t":1289,"text":"get at that next meeting, so we will communicate whatever staff are given at"},{"t":1293,"text":"the Homelessness Response Leadership Table. Okay. But in the meantime, we do have this"},{"t":1297,"text":"sort of rudimentary by-name list with BC Housing that we're working with at"},{"t":1302,"text":"the city and that will help us as we're— Correct. Okay. Thank you very much"},{"t":1305,"text":"for this. Appreciate it. Any other questions?"},{"t":1310,"text":"I would just note that at next week's Capital"},{"t":1314,"text":"Regional District Board meeting, there is supposed to be an update from"},{"t":1318,"text":"the CRD on their housing strategy. Which of course one"},{"t":1322,"text":"would hope would also reference their progress in enacting an actual"},{"t":1327,"text":"functional HIFAS system. So those of us who have the opportunity to be"},{"t":1331,"text":"there for that meeting will, I'm sure, have a chance to ask pertinent and relevant"},{"t":1335,"text":"questions. With that, I thank you again, Assistant Director"},{"t":1339,"text":"Webb, for that, for that update, and we look forward to the next opportunity to"},{"t":1342,"text":"ask you more questions when you come back on the first with your regular public"},{"t":1346,"text":"community safety and well-being update. Update. With that then, we move on"},{"t":1349,"text":"to the one land use matter that we have on our agenda today. This was"},{"t":1353,"text":"an item that was removed from the consent agenda. I think it would be helpful"},{"t":1356,"text":"for us to have staff do a bit of a presentation to start, if they're"},{"t":1359,"text":"prepared for that, and then we will go to questions. So once you're settled,"},{"t":1363,"text":"we'll hand it over to you."},{"t":1393,"text":"Good morning, Mr. Carroll. Good morning, Mayor,"},{"t":1397,"text":"and good morning, all of council."},{"t":1401,"text":"For the record, my name is Patrick Carroll, senior planner with Development Services."},{"t":1407,"text":"The application under consideration today is a rezoning application and"},{"t":1411,"text":"a development variance permit application for 770"},{"t":1414,"text":"Pemberton Road. The proposal is to amend"},{"t":1418,"text":"the existing CD-14 zone to permit subdivision"},{"t":1422,"text":"and construction of a new single-family dwelling within the comprehensive"},{"t":1427,"text":"development area. There are covenants"},{"t":1431,"text":"on title that will require amendment if council chooses to"},{"t":1435,"text":"move the application forward."},{"t":1439,"text":"In terms of the matters for consideration today, they are limited to the supportability"},{"t":1443,"text":"of the rezoning as well as the development variance permit application,"},{"t":1447,"text":"the supportability of those variants."},{"t":1450,"text":"As there is no development permit required for a single-family dwelling."},{"t":1458,"text":"Here is the site. You'll see it"},{"t":1462,"text":"at the top and its location along Pemberton Road close to Rockland Avenue."},{"t":1466,"text":"The surrounding area is largely single,"},{"t":1470,"text":"single-family development as well as a high concentration"},{"t":1474,"text":"of heritage designated and heritage value"},{"t":1478,"text":"buildings. You'll note the red outline that shows the full extent of"},{"t":1482,"text":"the CD-14 zone. And there is currently 4 lots."},{"t":1489,"text":"Zooming into the aerial of the, uh, subject property,"},{"t":1492,"text":"you'll note the existing building is tucked right to the back of"},{"t":1496,"text":"this property. Also, the heritage conversion is immediately to the"},{"t":1500,"text":"south, and it contains 8 units, and there is a"},{"t":1504,"text":"coach house at the back as well on the same property, and it contains 2"},{"t":1507,"text":"units. Here is the 3D aerial"},{"t":1510,"text":"just to give you a sense of the architectural expression of"},{"t":1514,"text":"the, both the main heritage development as well as the"},{"t":1518,"text":"contemporary buildings surrounding it."},{"t":1522,"text":"Here is a shot from the street looking inward up the property,"},{"t":1526,"text":"and again, you'll see the existing building is set far back from"},{"t":1529,"text":"the road."},{"t":1533,"text":"Now, moving into the official community plan. The site is"},{"t":1537,"text":"identified as within the residential infill area of"},{"t":1541,"text":"the residential fabric. So moving"},{"t":1545,"text":"into OCP policies, in terms of land use"},{"t":1549,"text":"guidance, the OCP envisions the full range of"},{"t":1552,"text":"residential forms, including ground-oriented residential buildings, such as what"},{"t":1557,"text":"is proposed, up to 4 stories generally in height."},{"t":1561,"text":"The OCP also places emphasis on both the preservation of"},{"t":1565,"text":"heritage assets, as well as heritage responsive designs,"},{"t":1569,"text":"which is more applicable in this application. The OCP"},{"t":1573,"text":"further informs design, uh, most notably encouraging,"},{"t":1577,"text":"uh, perimeter block form of development."},{"t":1581,"text":"This is where development is oriented towards the street and"},{"t":1586,"text":"generous open space exists generally in the rear lot."},{"t":1592,"text":"This proposal does diverge from this concept as"},{"t":1596,"text":"it is inward facing and centered around the heritage asset."},{"t":1600,"text":"However, it does meet the broad objectives of this concept,"},{"t":1605,"text":"particularly in terms of generous open site space as well"},{"t":1608,"text":"as new and retained trees along the street."},{"t":1613,"text":"The guidelines also support variances to setbacks to"},{"t":1617,"text":"enable alternative siting for heritage-type development."},{"t":1623,"text":"Moving to the rezoning and development policy, the policy"},{"t":1627,"text":"encourages that built form, design, and exterior"},{"t":1631,"text":"materials complement nearby cultural landscapes. In this case,"},{"t":1635,"text":"there is the abutting property at 750 Pemberton,"},{"t":1638,"text":"but more notably, Government House is located approximately 100"},{"t":1642,"text":"meters to the south."},{"t":1646,"text":"As reflected in the council motion, the proposed"},{"t":1650,"text":"design will be consistent with, uh,"},{"t":1654,"text":"the guidance provided in the OCP with a recommended revision"},{"t":1658,"text":"to relocate the building, uh, specifically further south and/or"},{"t":1662,"text":"west. The intent is to improve the success of retained"},{"t":1666,"text":"trees on the site and particularly in the municipal boulevard as well."},{"t":1672,"text":"As noted, there is a need to amend existing covenants to permit the development."},{"t":1677,"text":"These were registered as part of a previous rezoning application."},{"t":1682,"text":"And most notably, there is a tree protection covenant and there"},{"t":1686,"text":"is also a design covenant. In both cases,"},{"t":1689,"text":"they prohibit development or construction on the lands except"},{"t":1693,"text":"for in accordance with the plans attached to these documents."},{"t":1700,"text":"Here's the master site plan. Here is the"},{"t":1704,"text":"center of it, which is the heritage conversion. Here is a preserved"},{"t":1708,"text":"green space, which is also reflected in the covenant."},{"t":1712,"text":"And there is also a coach house at the back, already noted. And here"},{"t":1715,"text":"are the 3 single-family dwellings constructed to date."},{"t":1721,"text":"Zooming into the site plan more specifically, here is the proposed"},{"t":1726,"text":"building. You will note the patio, which does"},{"t":1730,"text":"face onto Pemberton Road. There are the"},{"t":1733,"text":"street trees, you can see little Xs there that denote them, and there are several"},{"t":1737,"text":"of significance. Here is the main entry for"},{"t":1741,"text":"pedestrians off of the driveway, and here is the vehicle"},{"t":1744,"text":"entry into the garage."},{"t":1749,"text":"In terms of setbacks,"},{"t":1753,"text":"this is the front yard setback and it is 1.94"},{"t":1756,"text":"meters. The north side setback is"},{"t":1760,"text":"at 1.5 meters. The rear setback is 3.3"},{"t":1764,"text":"meters. And finally, the largest setback is the south side setback,"},{"t":1768,"text":"which is 5.42. I would note that"},{"t":1772,"text":"the building was originally placed in this location, uh, in response to input"},{"t":1778,"text":"to maximize the view to the heritage building from the street."},{"t":1783,"text":"But as noted, as additional Arboretum Report information was"},{"t":1788,"text":"received, staff are now recommending that the building shift in"},{"t":1792,"text":"a moderate way south or west,"},{"t":1795,"text":"as shown, and it would be expected it would be somewhere approximately"},{"t":1800,"text":"a meter in each direction."},{"t":1804,"text":"Here's the landscape plan."},{"t":1808,"text":"You can see that the plantings are clustered along the"},{"t":1811,"text":"edges of the property and also around the pedestrian entry."},{"t":1816,"text":"Open lot space overall is generous at over 62%."},{"t":1821,"text":"Site coverage is at 31— just over 31%."},{"t":1827,"text":"So here is the front elevation. This would be facing inward towards"},{"t":1831,"text":"the heritage-designated building. And the"},{"t":1835,"text":"total height is 7— just over 7 meters."},{"t":1839,"text":"Here is the rear elevation, and it is facing north to the abutting"},{"t":1842,"text":"property. Here's the east"},{"t":1846,"text":"elevation, and this faces Pemberton Road,"},{"t":1850,"text":"and there's the patio to activate that space."},{"t":1853,"text":"And here is the west elevation, and it faces inward towards the"},{"t":1857,"text":"existing building on this property. Passamaquoddy. In terms of materials,"},{"t":1861,"text":"there are— there's a mix of wood,"},{"t":1864,"text":"painted stucco, stone veneer, and concrete."},{"t":1869,"text":"And here is a rendering showing the existing situation,"},{"t":1873,"text":"and the below is the new proposed building in"},{"t":1877,"text":"behind the trees. And here's just another view"},{"t":1881,"text":"to show the proposed new dwelling and its relationship to the"},{"t":1886,"text":"existing single-family dwelling."},{"t":1890,"text":"So in conclusion, the proposal is considered consistent"},{"t":1894,"text":"with the OCP's use and built form guidance. And further,"},{"t":1898,"text":"the site and building design do respond to the heritage context."},{"t":1902,"text":"The recommended motion includes the plan revision already noted to"},{"t":1907,"text":"shift the building south or west, and therefore it is recommended that"},{"t":1911,"text":"the application be advanced to bylaw readings subject to that revision"},{"t":1914,"text":"being completed."},{"t":1919,"text":"Thank you very much, Mr. Carroll. I think that there are a number of questions"},{"t":1922,"text":"that council will likely want to ask, in particular with regard to the"},{"t":1925,"text":"impact of this on the covenants. Do you have any"},{"t":1929,"text":"comments that you could offer at the beginning, specifically with regard"},{"t":1933,"text":"to that impact, before we go to questions?"},{"t":1936,"text":"Uh, through the mayor, thank you for the question. Yes, so as noted,"},{"t":1940,"text":"the The covenants, there are actually 4 in total."},{"t":1944,"text":"So 2 of the encumbrances are actually service related to external"},{"t":1948,"text":"service providers. The 2 of note that I had highlighted were"},{"t":1952,"text":"passed as part of the previous rezoning"},{"t":1956,"text":"and the intent was because there was no development permit required and"},{"t":1960,"text":"therefore design wouldn't be reviewed in that context,"},{"t":1964,"text":"the application instead recommended"},{"t":1969,"text":"and there were registered these covenants to basically design,"},{"t":1972,"text":"put in some control over the design."},{"t":1976,"text":"And so that includes building elevations as well as a master"},{"t":1980,"text":"site plan as well as individual requirements for"},{"t":1984,"text":"the lots. And it would be fair to say that with this recommendation"},{"t":1989,"text":"from staff that you are, from staff's perspective,"},{"t":1992,"text":"satisfied that the resolutions you're proposing do not have a"},{"t":1997,"text":"precedent-setting impact on the covenants?"},{"t":2001,"text":"Uh, thank you for the question. Uh, so staff, um,"},{"t":2005,"text":"have taken in the application and assessed it against the current policies,"},{"t":2009,"text":"and the proposal from the existing landowner was that,"},{"t":2012,"text":"uh, their view was there was additional space to accommodate"},{"t":2016,"text":"a new building, and staff assessed it based on the current policies and"},{"t":2020,"text":"believe that, um, if, if as council,"},{"t":2023,"text":"we would recommend that council consider advancing the application"},{"t":2027,"text":"because it is consistent with our current policies today. Thank you."},{"t":2032,"text":"Questions? Let's start with questions. I'm sure there are many comments,"},{"t":2035,"text":"but let's start with questions. Councillor Carradine, how to start? Thanks."},{"t":2038,"text":"I think I only have one, maybe two. Uh, through the mayor,"},{"t":2042,"text":"I actually met with this proponent a couple of years ago when they"},{"t":2046,"text":"were thinking about doing some kind of missing middle multi-unit entity"},{"t":2050,"text":"here, and we— that person"},{"t":2054,"text":"wanted to pick my brain. I handed it off to staff. I haven't talked to"},{"t":2056,"text":"the person in probably 2 years, and then it comes back as a single-family home"},{"t":2061,"text":"proposal. So I'm trying to understand what happened, and I noticed somewhere in the"},{"t":2064,"text":"report, I think it's maybe on page 5,"},{"t":2068,"text":"that the property is limited to single-family dwellings."},{"t":2072,"text":"Home Occupations and Accessory Buildings, which is probably why"},{"t":2075,"text":"this ended up as it did. But I want to get a better sense of"},{"t":2078,"text":"why this relatively large lot would not be zoned for missing"},{"t":2081,"text":"middle and what the barriers would be to doing some kind of multiplex here,"},{"t":2085,"text":"like a threeplex or a fourplex. Why, why couldn't this be a multi-unit?"},{"t":2089,"text":"Mr. Carroll, uh, thank you for the question, and through to the"},{"t":2093,"text":"mayor. Uh, the applicant engaged staff early"},{"t":2096,"text":"and quite a few years ago, as you had noted, and they were They"},{"t":2101,"text":"were exploring all options, but they did indicate their preference was to construct"},{"t":2106,"text":"a single-family dwelling. So when the missing middle regulations were active,"},{"t":2110,"text":"staff did recommend considering a houseplex type of development and"},{"t":2114,"text":"just indicated that adding more units in a compact form would be"},{"t":2118,"text":"consistent with our policies. The applicant did respond that they weren't—"},{"t":2122,"text":"were not interested in a more dense development and that they felt"},{"t":2125,"text":"a single-family dwelling would fit the character of this development."},{"t":2129,"text":"Okay, that's helpful to know. And, but in just in terms of the zoning,"},{"t":2133,"text":"the property is limited to single-family dwellings, home occupations, and accessory buildings. Why?"},{"t":2137,"text":"That's the part I don't understand. Like, why is this plot not zoned with"},{"t":2141,"text":"the rest of the city to be applicable for Missing Middle? Thank you for the"},{"t":2145,"text":"question, and through to the mayor. This is a CD-14 zone,"},{"t":2149,"text":"so a comprehensive development district, and as such, it was not included"},{"t":2154,"text":"in the modernization of our zoning that occurred in 2025."},{"t":2157,"text":"So we do anticipate the CD zones will be reviewed in later phases."},{"t":2161,"text":"But at this time, this development is still CD-14,"},{"t":2165,"text":"and that CD-14 zone is quite restrictive and limits you in both use"},{"t":2169,"text":"and density. Okay. So I guess the— if what I'm hearing is that we just—"},{"t":2174,"text":"not all of the zoning was completed that was envisioned in the"},{"t":2177,"text":"OCP in 2025. We essentially haven't gotten to this neighborhood yet to think"},{"t":2181,"text":"about what small-scale multi-unit might look like. But what"},{"t":2185,"text":"if, what if a neighboring property that's much larger wanted to do a fourplex?"},{"t":2189,"text":"Would they be allowed to do that? Mr. Handy."},{"t":2193,"text":"Thank you. Good morning, Mayor Altom, members of council. Jim Handy,"},{"t":2196,"text":"Acting Assistant Director, Development Services. Um,"},{"t":2200,"text":"kind of two answers there. So the first part of, uh, the answer"},{"t":2205,"text":"relates to the phasing of our zoning bylaw modernization um,"},{"t":2209,"text":"we have several comprehensive development zones in the city. They're often complex"},{"t":2214,"text":"zones that deal with certain unique sites and site sensitivities."},{"t":2218,"text":"In this instance, this site has a CD zone because of the heritage building"},{"t":2222,"text":"and the unique circumstances around this development."},{"t":2226,"text":"Um, it was determined that the CD zones"},{"t":2230,"text":"would be tackled as a later phase of zoning bylaw modernization,"},{"t":2233,"text":"so that still on our program, and that will come forward at some point"},{"t":2237,"text":"in the future. Um, my understanding is the majority of the"},{"t":2241,"text":"adjacent properties are zoned general residential district,"},{"t":2245,"text":"so they would have those opportunities that would be afforded by that zone."},{"t":2249,"text":"Okay, so it sounds like it's part of the unique characteristics of this actual"},{"t":2253,"text":"spot, and what I'm also hearing is that the proponent landed on wanting to have"},{"t":2257,"text":"single family. That's all clear? Okay, thank you."},{"t":2260,"text":"Councillor Hammond."},{"t":2264,"text":"Thanks, Mayor. I'm— maybe I'm"},{"t":2267,"text":"not understanding this, but I don't know that when you asked the question that it"},{"t":2271,"text":"was actually answered by Mr. Carroll."},{"t":2274,"text":"And I know you gave the answer you thought best, but what"},{"t":2278,"text":"does something like this— what impact does this have on other covenants"},{"t":2283,"text":"and our concern about precedent of"},{"t":2287,"text":"a covenant that was discussed at great length,"},{"t":2290,"text":"from what I'm told, less than 10 years old?"},{"t":2296,"text":"Mr. Handy. Thank you. Thank you for the question."},{"t":2301,"text":"So I think I'll start by saying the purpose"},{"t":2306,"text":"of the covenants that are registered on title is not to prohibit future development."},{"t":2310,"text":"Just to give a bit of historical context, Um, you know,"},{"t":2314,"text":"when I've dealt with several of these over the years where we"},{"t":2317,"text":"were approving, um, developments where,"},{"t":2321,"text":"um, the proposed developments such as a single-family dwelling would not"},{"t":2324,"text":"require a development permit and therefore"},{"t":2329,"text":"we would have no future design controls, we would register"},{"t":2332,"text":"these design covenants on title so that we did have some control."},{"t":2337,"text":"So we talked about the unique circumstances on this site,"},{"t":2340,"text":"some of the sensitivities around the heritage home. If we— if"},{"t":2344,"text":"this design covenant was not in place, then essentially,"},{"t":2348,"text":"you know, an owner of one of the single-family dwellings could, you know, change the"},{"t":2352,"text":"colour materials of the buildings without review"},{"t":2355,"text":"from the city. So we wanted to retain an element of that control."},{"t":2359,"text":"The purpose was not to then prohibit any future development,"},{"t":2362,"text":"any future development. It was just to allow us to review proposals."},{"t":2367,"text":"Um, in terms of a precedent, we look at each application on its own merit."},{"t":2370,"text":"Um, so an application has been submitted, we reviewed it"},{"t":2374,"text":"against the current policies and design guidelines, and we feel it is supportable"},{"t":2378,"text":"with some minor changes as, um, uh, as described by Mr."},{"t":2382,"text":"Carroll. And if a future application came in which required a"},{"t":2385,"text":"review of a design covenant, that would be reviewed on its own individual merit"},{"t":2389,"text":"as well. This would not set a precedent in terms of that decision-making."},{"t":2393,"text":"Councillor Hammond."},{"t":2397,"text":"Thanks, Mayor. I received— all"},{"t":2400,"text":"of council actually received from Ms."},{"t":2403,"text":"Hudson a response when I was asking about this,"},{"t":2407,"text":"and Ms. Hudson noted that the covenant relates"},{"t":2412,"text":"to the design and finish of the buildings and landscaping of the 2017"},{"t":2416,"text":"approved to development, and the other covenant relates to the tree protection"},{"t":2419,"text":"measures, and we were told that these wouldn't"},{"t":2424,"text":"be a problem. However, how do we deal with"},{"t":2428,"text":"Article 4, Section 4 of the covenant, which reads the owner"},{"t":2432,"text":"further covenants and agrees with the city and that"},{"t":2436,"text":"from and after the date of adoption of the zoning amendment bylaw,"},{"t":2439,"text":"the owner shall not build on the lands or design site,"},{"t":2443,"text":"construct or finish any building or structure on the"},{"t":2447,"text":"lands except in strict accordance with the site plan and the landscape plan,"},{"t":2451,"text":"including without limitation the finish of the buildings."},{"t":2454,"text":"And it goes in a little further about where you find those. And also B,"},{"t":2457,"text":"the location and nature of all landscaping. So how"},{"t":2462,"text":"do we deal with the fact that you've got something in there that said shall"},{"t":2467,"text":"not build on the lands or design site?"},{"t":2470,"text":"Construct or finish any building or structure on the lands."},{"t":2474,"text":"I believe you're leaning into that one. Thank you for the question."},{"t":2478,"text":"Charlotte Wayne, Manager of Neighbourhood Development Planning. Thank you for the"},{"t":2482,"text":"question. Through the Mayor, the covenant"},{"t":2485,"text":"in its simplest terms,"},{"t":2488,"text":"what you quoted in that particular article,"},{"t":2493,"text":"it restricts future development only in such a way that the covenant"},{"t":2497,"text":"has a site plan attached to it, and the site plan that's attached to that"},{"t":2500,"text":"covenant shows no building in this location. So that aspect of"},{"t":2504,"text":"the covenant requires amending. Um, the, the language that you quoted"},{"t":2508,"text":"doesn't preclude any amendment, only insofar that the site plan needs to"},{"t":2512,"text":"be amended to reflect this building. And there are other amendments to the"},{"t":2516,"text":"covenant, um, as, as described by Mr. Carroll."},{"t":2520,"text":"Um, but I think that's— I think that's maybe the simplest way to"},{"t":2524,"text":"answer your question. Has— okay, thank you. And through the mayor,"},{"t":2527,"text":"so there's this covenant, there's this article"},{"t":2531,"text":"in there amongst others in which it's being really clear, at least to me,"},{"t":2536,"text":"that it's saying you can't do anything. And the mere fact that"},{"t":2540,"text":"they hadn't anticipated that someone said, well, no one thought about putting"},{"t":2544,"text":"a building there, so that isn't covered under that article,"},{"t":2549,"text":"doesn't, doesn't that mean that they would have to anticipate every possible"},{"t":2555,"text":"nuance that they hadn't even considered at any time in"},{"t":2559,"text":"order to put it in. And I mean, I know 4 of us on this"},{"t":2563,"text":"council have legal training, so you want to make sure"},{"t":2567,"text":"that there's proper protections in there. But it seems to me as though"},{"t":2572,"text":"this covenant was trying to be very clear about the negotiations"},{"t":2576,"text":"and the work that was done beforehand and supported by the Kallik"},{"t":2579,"text":"very strongly. Is to say this is what was put in place for these"},{"t":2583,"text":"purposes and that they did not anticipate anything like this."},{"t":2587,"text":"Is that possible? Who would"},{"t":2591,"text":"like to try and answer that question?"},{"t":2597,"text":"Through the Mayor, I'll see if Mr. Cowell has anything further"},{"t":2601,"text":"to add to my response, but my understanding was"},{"t":2605,"text":"the covenant was in place mainly in"},{"t":2608,"text":"relation to maintaining an open appearance through the heritage building."},{"t":2613,"text":"Um, the, the design that's been put forward before Council today has"},{"t":2617,"text":"been, and as described in the staff report, has been oriented,"},{"t":2621,"text":"um, in such a way to maintain that, those views to the heritage building."},{"t":2626,"text":"Um, I don't think we can"},{"t":2631,"text":"speculate in terms of, in terms of the, the intent of the covenant was,"},{"t":2634,"text":"was not to prevent any future development. It was what was prevented— what"},{"t":2639,"text":"was proposed at the time didn't show anything in that location, but it"},{"t":2642,"text":"also did not preclude any further development coming forward at a later date."},{"t":2648,"text":"Okay, so just to be clear then, so it says when the owner shall not"},{"t":2652,"text":"build on the lands or design site, construct or finish any building or structures"},{"t":2656,"text":"on the lands except in strict accordance with the site plan and the landscape"},{"t":2659,"text":"plan. You're— so you're saying that that"},{"t":2662,"text":"that on its own was not enough to prevent any construction"},{"t":2667,"text":"or changes of buildings. That's correct."},{"t":2670,"text":"And through the Mayor, I think it's worth reminding Council"},{"t":2675,"text":"that Council has the ability to rescind covenants as"},{"t":2678,"text":"they see fit. Of course. Thank you."},{"t":2682,"text":"That's it. Thank you."},{"t":2686,"text":"And I'll try to be clear. Which will be hard for me"},{"t":2690,"text":"in this case because it's going to be a tough one. First of all,"},{"t":2692,"text":"uh, what was the date of the arborist report, the one that,"},{"t":2696,"text":"uh, is causing the shift of the building?"},{"t":2700,"text":"Mr. Carroll, do you know that? Through to the mayor, just one, uh, give me"},{"t":2703,"text":"one second. I just got to scroll through a little."},{"t":2723,"text":"June 18th. June 18th"},{"t":2727,"text":"of this year. Yes. So it is June 18th of"},{"t":2731,"text":"this year, 2026. Thank you."},{"t":2736,"text":"That's important for me to know. Now, we've also been informed"},{"t":2740,"text":"via communications from Residence in one hand,"},{"t":2744,"text":"one of you— what, excuse me— and others, including Don Luxton,"},{"t":2748,"text":"who wrote the report that set up this whole system—"},{"t":2753,"text":"or not system, but the report which he called the Statement"},{"t":2757,"text":"of Significance in a Heritage Impact Assessment in November of"},{"t":2761,"text":"2026 that set up this whole agreement in the first place. And so"},{"t":2765,"text":"his correspondence to us is dated April March 23rd"},{"t":2770,"text":"of this year, which means even before the shift in the house was"},{"t":2773,"text":"being proposed. Now, the shift going south will,"},{"t":2776,"text":"of course, further reduce the emphasis"},{"t":2781,"text":"or the view of the heritage house by moving it further south when you"},{"t":2785,"text":"look at the angles. Now, Mr. Luxton also suggests"},{"t":2788,"text":"that Section 31 of the Property Law Act gives a court the power"},{"t":2792,"text":"to modify or to cancel a restrictive covenant if the owner can satisfy"},{"t":2796,"text":"the court that any one of 5 different conditions referred to in Section 35"},{"t":2800,"text":"exists in favor of the owner. And then there's, of course, a list"},{"t":2804,"text":"of them. Now, one of them happens to be the court may make an order"},{"t":2807,"text":"under subsection 1 on being satisfied that the application is not premature"},{"t":2811,"text":"in the circumstances and that a) because of"},{"t":2816,"text":"changes in the character of the land, the neighborhood, or other circumstances the court considered"},{"t":2820,"text":"material, the registered charge or interest is obsolete."},{"t":2824,"text":"But really, the, uh, there was the"},{"t":2828,"text":"whole purpose of this Lot 1 being really quite open"},{"t":2832,"text":"was for highlighting the, uh, to the"},{"t":2836,"text":"public as they go up and down Pemberton that whole heritage site."},{"t":2840,"text":"So, um, I'm just going to read from, uh, the correspondence"},{"t":2845,"text":"we got. It appears that the conditions outlined in the Property Law Act cannot"},{"t":2848,"text":"be met as the covenant assured a general public benefit"},{"t":2852,"text":"with no specific time limit. The public benefit that was"},{"t":2855,"text":"agreed upon in 2017 will be taken away if the covenant is"},{"t":2859,"text":"cancelled. Could we have an opinion on that from our legal?"},{"t":2864,"text":"Mr. Handy."},{"t":2870,"text":"Through you, ma'am. I heard the question was directed— I believe"},{"t":2874,"text":"the question is whether or not we've had anyone from our legal staff have a"},{"t":2878,"text":"look at whether or not any of the changes being recommended have any"},{"t":2881,"text":"legal impact with regard to the covenants in particular. Okay, just very simply,"},{"t":2885,"text":"yes, our legal team have reviewed the application,"},{"t":2889,"text":"the report, and they haven't flagged any issues. Very good,"},{"t":2893,"text":"thank you. Pardon? I didn't hear the answer."},{"t":2896,"text":"The legal team has reviewed this and has approved it. —has approved it."},{"t":2900,"text":"Okay. And says that that particular thing may not apply. Correct."},{"t":2904,"text":"Because that there is no change to the public"},{"t":2908,"text":"interest. Is that right?"},{"t":2912,"text":"I think the answer is the legal team has reviewed the application and"},{"t":2917,"text":"the recommendations and has found no issues."},{"t":2923,"text":"No legal issues. Correct. Right, but there may be other issues."},{"t":2926,"text":"Okay, I'll have comments later. That's my questions. Very good."},{"t":2930,"text":"Any other questions? Councillor Dell. I would just like to move"},{"t":2934,"text":"the staff recommendation. Okay, let me just check and make sure there are no other"},{"t":2937,"text":"questions first. Just checking online. No questions online."},{"t":2942,"text":"All right, Councillor Dunn, you'd like to— Councillor Dell, you'd like to move the staff"},{"t":2945,"text":"recommendation. Is there a seconder? Seconder for the staff"},{"t":2949,"text":"recommendation? Councillor Carradonna, go ahead."},{"t":2952,"text":"Councillor Dell? Sure, so I've reviewed this file in depth"},{"t":2956,"text":"and understand the issues with the covenant, which are designed to protect the green space,"},{"t":2959,"text":"the trees, and particularly the views. When I first saw"},{"t":2962,"text":"this, I thought the views were going to completely block the home, and when I"},{"t":2965,"text":"looked at it, you know, this kind of"},{"t":2969,"text":"smaller home is tucked away quite far on the north side."},{"t":2973,"text":"It seems to preserve most of the views of the heritage"},{"t":2977,"text":"home Which the photo that we had there shows."},{"t":2983,"text":"So I did receive the information from the neighborhood association,"},{"t":2986,"text":"which was concerned about the views. So we're trying to find that balance. But for"},{"t":2990,"text":"me, I'm just going to read a letter. All the letters for this project were"},{"t":2993,"text":"in support of this project. Every single letter was from someone"},{"t":2997,"text":"in the area, including some on the site and some on"},{"t":3001,"text":"Pemberton who said, this is actually what we want for this site."},{"t":3006,"text":"So I normally don't read letters, so I will"},{"t":3010,"text":"read a couple of them. I'm writing as a nearby resident to express my support"},{"t":3014,"text":"for 770 Pemberton. Victoria needs additional housing"},{"t":3017,"text":"within established neighborhoods, including ground-oriented homes that accommodate families"},{"t":3021,"text":"and residents at different stages of life. The proposed cottage would provide one additional"},{"t":3025,"text":"home in a desirable, well-connected area while introducing a building form and scale that is"},{"t":3028,"text":"consistent with the surrounding community. I also support the sensitive approach taken to the"},{"t":3032,"text":"site. Rather than maximizing the size and density, the design has been reduced and carefully"},{"t":3036,"text":"positioned to preserve the visibility and prominence of the neighboring heritage"},{"t":3039,"text":"residence. The modest two-story scale and residential character appear appropriate"},{"t":3044,"text":"for the area and should allow the new home to complement the surrounding properties."},{"t":3048,"text":"That one goes on and on. There was one I wanted"},{"t":3052,"text":"to leave. This is someone who actually lives"},{"t":3055,"text":"on the site. As long-term residents of 770 Pemberton, we support the proposal"},{"t":3060,"text":"to build a new family home. This is a quiet, safe, and welcoming residential area"},{"t":3063,"text":"that provides an excellent environment for family life. The neighborhood offers a strong sense of"},{"t":3067,"text":"community with family, friends, low traffic, access to schools, parks, and transportation."},{"t":3072,"text":"So it seems like the neighborhood on Pemberton— I understand it's probably"},{"t":3075,"text":"one of the most beautiful streets in the entire city with some of our most"},{"t":3078,"text":"majestic heritage homes. That said,"},{"t":3082,"text":"as these letters say, this area is going to evolve. We can't just"},{"t":3086,"text":"cram density in Burnside Gorge and other areas and"},{"t":3090,"text":"allow Rocklands to not change at all. I mean, if there's a problem"},{"t":3094,"text":"with this is that it's a very low-density proposal where I think initially"},{"t":3098,"text":"something to accommodate more residents was proposed, but I understand the desire"},{"t":3102,"text":"to preserve the trees and I think they've really found the right balance."},{"t":3106,"text":"I hear those who don't want to see much change in Rocklands,"},{"t":3109,"text":"but I think this is actually a good proposal and I'm willing to support it."},{"t":3113,"text":"Thank you. Thank you. Councillor Carradonna as a seconder."},{"t":3117,"text":"Thanks, Mayor. This one is a tricky one for me because we"},{"t":3122,"text":"don't often have subdivisions and single-family homes proposed. I can"},{"t":3126,"text":"think of a couple of other examples this term. There's one in Dysbard. There is"},{"t":3129,"text":"one here and there. It's, it's fairly uncommon these days, as most"},{"t":3134,"text":"new development is, is multi-unit. For me personally, I'm not passionate"},{"t":3138,"text":"about adding new single-family homes to the city. It's not why"},{"t":3141,"text":"I was elected. It's not what I think is going to solve our housing crisis."},{"t":3145,"text":"I think it's a missed opportunity to build some type of small multi-unit"},{"t":3150,"text":"residential building here, but it doesn't really matter what I"},{"t":3153,"text":"want. What matters is what the zoning says and the OCP"},{"t":3157,"text":"says. And staff's interpretation of the rules. And so I'm deferring"},{"t":3161,"text":"here to staff, and in their reading of the zoning"},{"t":3164,"text":"and of the OCP, this does meet our rules and regulations, and I"},{"t":3169,"text":"think therefore it should be approved. What I want personally doesn't really matter."},{"t":3172,"text":"I understand that it is the desire of the proponent to build a single-family"},{"t":3176,"text":"home. That's what they want to do. It meets our rules and statutes,"},{"t":3180,"text":"and therefore I think it should be approved. But I do I still think it's"},{"t":3184,"text":"a missed opportunity to add a little bit of density to a site that,"},{"t":3187,"text":"that could have accommodated it. And there is actually some pretty nice density already"},{"t":3190,"text":"at 770 Pemberton. I walk by there all the time."},{"t":3194,"text":"So on balance, this is about interpreting"},{"t":3197,"text":"the rules and deferring to staff's interpretations"},{"t":3201,"text":"of the rules, and it's not really about what we around the table want as"},{"t":3203,"text":"a vision for the city moving forward. So on balance, I'm able to support it."},{"t":3208,"text":"Thank you very much. Anybody else? Councillor Gardner."},{"t":3214,"text":"Thank you. I viewed the property earlier this week."},{"t":3218,"text":"I'm driving around a lot these days, so I managed to stop"},{"t":3222,"text":"by there to have a really good look at it. The real question before us"},{"t":3225,"text":"today is the covenant and whether the council will alter or in effect abrogate"},{"t":3229,"text":"the covenant. The Rockland Neighbourhood Association has clearly objected"},{"t":3233,"text":"to the proposal before us. Donald Luxton, the heritage consultant"},{"t":3238,"text":"in the application, which was to conserve the main estate house,"},{"t":3242,"text":"has recently summarized his report done 10 years ago."},{"t":3246,"text":"He did that in April."},{"t":3249,"text":"Lot 1 was to be left vacant to allow open public views"},{"t":3253,"text":"from the street through to the heritage house. And it's not just straight"},{"t":3257,"text":"on, but to see it as you come and go so you don't just get"},{"t":3260,"text":"a quick little glimpse glimpse of it as you go by the driveway. The framed"},{"t":3264,"text":"views and open space were part of the negotiated public benefit of"},{"t":3268,"text":"the development."},{"t":3272,"text":"Today, as we learn, when the development is moved further south from"},{"t":3276,"text":"the arboretum, we learned this because of the arboretum report,"},{"t":3279,"text":"that will further decrease the view which will be protected. And again, it's not"},{"t":3283,"text":"just the view when you look up the driveway, it's the whole ambience of the"},{"t":3287,"text":"area. Both Mr. Luxton and the Rockland Neighborhood Association identify the abrogation"},{"t":3290,"text":"of the covenant as a dangerous precedent for all Section"},{"t":3294,"text":"219 covenants. We are part of a"},{"t":3298,"text":"living council. While council cannot bind future councils,"},{"t":3302,"text":"we must at some point respect commitments with"},{"t":3306,"text":"the public, and a lot of these commitments have been made through covenants."},{"t":3310,"text":"The act of altering this covenant would be akin to council approvals"},{"t":3314,"text":"being written in pencil. We've seen a lot of that recently in the"},{"t":3318,"text":"country south of us. I will not support the staff recommendation."},{"t":3322,"text":"Thank you very much. Anybody else?"},{"t":3326,"text":"Councillor Hammond."},{"t":3330,"text":"Thanks, Mayor. Um, it's true,"},{"t":3334,"text":"we heard from staff that council can change any covenant they want,"},{"t":3338,"text":"but then this basically means that Anyone entering into a covenant with"},{"t":3342,"text":"the City of Victoria knows that these covenants can be worthless. I can"},{"t":3346,"text":"see important reasons to change or rescind covenants or"},{"t":3350,"text":"other documents on land title. And when I thought about this one,"},{"t":3353,"text":"I thought about the British properties in West Vancouver, where unless you were"},{"t":3357,"text":"white and Protestant, you could not"},{"t":3360,"text":"actually own any of those properties. And then of course it was in 1978"},{"t":3365,"text":"where the BC government said that those covenants are void and of no effect."},{"t":3368,"text":"I remember learning about it when I was going through the Bar Admission Course about"},{"t":3372,"text":"these actual covenants that you'd still find, well, back then,"},{"t":3376,"text":"that was a long time ago, so you could still find some of these covenants"},{"t":3380,"text":"on the documents that people had held the property for a long time,"},{"t":3383,"text":"but they were of no effect. So I"},{"t":3388,"text":"can see that, and as a matter of fact,"},{"t":3391,"text":"there's a part of me that would think that All right, if for public purposes,"},{"t":3396,"text":"public policy, but a real public purpose, we were to"},{"t":3400,"text":"give affordable housing or housing that more people could"},{"t":3404,"text":"afford, I could appreciate that. But this is a single-family home."},{"t":3408,"text":"And I got nothing against that, but I just don't think that's the reason why"},{"t":3411,"text":"you strike a covenant that is less than 10 years old."},{"t":3417,"text":"Now, part of the reasons that we were told with recent correspondence and others"},{"t":3421,"text":"is that it impacts the view. So I cycled by there and"},{"t":3426,"text":"I thought from the— actually from the renderings that we"},{"t":3430,"text":"got, I thought, oh, you know, does it block the view that much? And when"},{"t":3433,"text":"I went there, I can completely see it. It's not like it's this gigantic"},{"t":3437,"text":"tract of land, but I can see why they said this was the purpose on"},{"t":3442,"text":"having this for these views. And, you know, I live"},{"t":3446,"text":"in Rockland and so a lot of people could think, oh, this is just rich"},{"t":3449,"text":"people on rich land. And yet Rockland is full"},{"t":3453,"text":"of tenants living in these old mansions. And I remember when the Rockland Neighbourhood Association"},{"t":3457,"text":"a few years ago told us that Rockland is actually 70% multi-unit."},{"t":3462,"text":"So people have taken these old mansions and turned them into something."},{"t":3466,"text":"But my biggest concern as a councillor who's also still"},{"t":3471,"text":"a non-practicing member of the Law Society of British Columbia,"},{"t":3474,"text":"that contracts should mean something. And if"},{"t":3478,"text":"there's real big purpose for changing it, that I get. I don't"},{"t":3481,"text":"think putting a one single-family home on this property is"},{"t":3485,"text":"enough of a reason. Thank you very much. Anybody else?"},{"t":3490,"text":"Yes, Councillor Colman, go ahead. Thank you. We've got two"},{"t":3494,"text":"different components here. The land use actually doesn't"},{"t":3498,"text":"bother me. It's the legal aspect of"},{"t":3502,"text":"covenants and how they are perceived."},{"t":3506,"text":"Having been involved in applications for this property writ"},{"t":3511,"text":"large in the past, I do remember the discussions."},{"t":3516,"text":"And covenants are seen— you know, there are 4 non-practicing"},{"t":3520,"text":"lawyers at this table. Covenants are seen"},{"t":3524,"text":"in different ways. They are legal instruments that can be adjusted"},{"t":3528,"text":"if you have a legal background. But in the earlier"},{"t":3531,"text":"iteration of this property's development, it was seen"},{"t":3536,"text":"as a contract with the public, and it's seen differently"},{"t":3540,"text":"in that context. When the land use"},{"t":3543,"text":"committee of this area supported earlier applications,"},{"t":3548,"text":"they saw this area being protected from development."},{"t":3553,"text":"As I say, I'm not particularly flummoxed by by the development"},{"t":3557,"text":"application, I think it looks quite good. But if we"},{"t":3561,"text":"go back to Stephen Covey and the speed of trust, what we're creating"},{"t":3565,"text":"is a conundrum within the community where no future covenants"},{"t":3569,"text":"will be trusted or legal minds will narrow them and"},{"t":3573,"text":"make them harder to break. So that's the conundrum that's"},{"t":3577,"text":"in front of us. And we've all gone by"},{"t":3581,"text":"the property, we've all taken a look, It doesn't take"},{"t":3585,"text":"away the view of the traditional stately home,"},{"t":3589,"text":"but it does narrow it. And that, I think, is the conundrum that"},{"t":3593,"text":"we need to face. I have a real problem"},{"t":3597,"text":"trying to cast my mind on how I deal with an application"},{"t":3602,"text":"that I think makes sense from a land use perspective and the adjustment"},{"t":3606,"text":"of what the public saw as a legal"},{"t":3610,"text":"entitlement or a legal form of protection. How I"},{"t":3615,"text":"deal with that will be shown in the next few minutes, I suppose."},{"t":3618,"text":"Very shortly. Anyone else?"},{"t":3624,"text":"Yes, Councillor Thompson, go ahead. Thanks, Mayor."},{"t":3627,"text":"Um, yeah, I just wanted to ask staff if they could comment on the,"},{"t":3631,"text":"um, idea that, uh, um,"},{"t":3635,"text":"that this effectively means that all covenants are nullified"},{"t":3640,"text":"and meaningless in the future. Can staff weigh in on that?"},{"t":3644,"text":"Who would like to weigh in on that? I mean, that's partly, I suppose,"},{"t":3647,"text":"an illegal opinion, which I think has been answered previously by the answer"},{"t":3652,"text":"to my question of have— has legal looked at this? The answer was yes,"},{"t":3655,"text":"but feel free. Go ahead, Ms. May."},{"t":3659,"text":"Thank you. Through the Mayor, um, I do concur with your assumption"},{"t":3664,"text":"that, yes, a legal opinion will probably be"},{"t":3667,"text":"more advisable, but what I could, could contribute is that,"},{"t":3671,"text":"um, the— as"},{"t":3674,"text":"Mr. Handy mentioned earlier, each application is viewed on its own merits."},{"t":3678,"text":"The application before Council today has been evaluated against"},{"t":3682,"text":"the Council adopted policies of the day, including the"},{"t":3686,"text":"corporate plan, the strategic Plan, the OCP, um,"},{"t":3691,"text":"to name a few. Um, I think that's as far as I'd like to go"},{"t":3695,"text":"with my answer. Very good. Mr. Handy, you'd like to add something? Just,"},{"t":3698,"text":"just add one comment. Thank you, Mayor. Um, it's just the decision that Council"},{"t":3702,"text":"make today doesn't set a precedent for future decisions. So if we receive another"},{"t":3706,"text":"application on a different site with a covenant and,"},{"t":3709,"text":"um, it's not supported, then making that decision is fine today."},{"t":3713,"text":"It does not set a precedent. So if I understood your comment,"},{"t":3717,"text":"what we do today doesn't necessarily fetter any future decision?"},{"t":3720,"text":"That's correct. Thank you. Councillor Thomson?"},{"t":3724,"text":"Thank you, Mayor. No further. Okay. Anybody else?"},{"t":3729,"text":"I'd just like to ask one question or maybe two of our staff."},{"t":3734,"text":"Did I correctly hear you say that the— from staff's"},{"t":3739,"text":"perspective, From staff's perspective, the purpose of the covenant back in 2017 was"},{"t":3743,"text":"to ensure that any future possibility of development"},{"t":3746,"text":"would require oversight from staff and that a design would need"},{"t":3750,"text":"approval. Is that correct? That's correct."},{"t":3755,"text":"Would I then interpret the fact that you are recommending this proceeding is the fact"},{"t":3759,"text":"that you have in fact had the opportunity to review a design and"},{"t":3763,"text":"based against all of the policies that are applicable, it meets that"},{"t":3767,"text":"design except for the provisions that you've added as a variance or"},{"t":3770,"text":"an amendment? Yes, that's correct. So in fact, the purpose"},{"t":3774,"text":"of the covenant has been met. Is that correct?"},{"t":3781,"text":"I believe that's correct, yes. Thank you. As others"},{"t":3784,"text":"have said, this is both a land use policy consideration"},{"t":3789,"text":"as well as a consideration of the application of a covenant that"},{"t":3793,"text":"was made 9 years ago. And from what I have understood from the presentations and"},{"t":3797,"text":"the materials provided, the purpose of the covenant in fact was very intentional"},{"t":3802,"text":"and was very required at the time. And the purpose that"},{"t":3806,"text":"it was designed to meet has in fact occurred"},{"t":3810,"text":"by virtue of the fact that the development that is being proposed"},{"t":3814,"text":"could only have been put forward once it had been considered by staff"},{"t":3818,"text":"and presented to council and is therefore subject to a council decision based upon"},{"t":3822,"text":"the fact that the covenant's purposes have been met."},{"t":3825,"text":"Given that, I do then revert back to then the land use consideration,"},{"t":3830,"text":"which I do agree, as others have said, is actually quite elegant."},{"t":3833,"text":"It is, I agree with some of the comments, perhaps not as dense as some"},{"t":3837,"text":"would like. However, there is a very unique feature about the land use"},{"t":3841,"text":"in Rockland, which whatever you may think of it, is in fact"},{"t":3845,"text":"quite remarkable. And indeed unique. I think this fits that"},{"t":3849,"text":"unique character, and therefore I'm quite content to support this application at this"},{"t":3853,"text":"time. Having said that,"},{"t":3856,"text":"Councillor Gardner, yes, go ahead. Thank you. Having read"},{"t":3860,"text":"the covenants, I hope everyone else here has. Yes, the design aspects"},{"t":3864,"text":"are there, and that also applies to any changes to the buildings going"},{"t":3867,"text":"forward, and I get that. But there was also the whole landscape to"},{"t":3871,"text":"understand that no other construction on that site. But really what this boils"},{"t":3875,"text":"down to beyond the legal is trust."},{"t":3879,"text":"And broken trust is really hard to regain. And frankly,"},{"t":3883,"text":"the city and council is in trouble in"},{"t":3886,"text":"that regard regarding— especially with the OCP."},{"t":3890,"text":"And even the whole argument of the OCP might be used to rationalize"},{"t":3894,"text":"this further actually destroys trust"},{"t":3898,"text":"with our general population. And I just want to raise"},{"t":3902,"text":"that, that that's what this has always boiled down to. This one is the trust."},{"t":3905,"text":"The word was used, and the councillor used it. This was part of the negotiation"},{"t":3910,"text":"with the public. So yes,"},{"t":3913,"text":"the covenant can be changed legally, no question, but can it"},{"t":3917,"text":"be changed and keep integrity with the public?"},{"t":3920,"text":"Thank you. Thank you. Anyone else?"},{"t":3925,"text":"Councilor Kerodono. I'm sitting here feeling puzzled because"},{"t":3928,"text":"I'm hearing from another councilor that a covenant was changed."},{"t":3932,"text":"I, I don't— I didn't hear from staff that a covenant has been changed."},{"t":3935,"text":"What I'm hearing as a member of council is that the covenant has been satisfied,"},{"t":3940,"text":"that this proposal is consistent with the covenant."},{"t":3943,"text":"So I would like some clarity because I'm hearing different things from councilors than I'm"},{"t":3947,"text":"hearing from staff. Miss Wayne, any comments"},{"t":3951,"text":"on whether or not there's been any changes to the covenant? Thank you for the"},{"t":3955,"text":"question. Through you, Mayor, there have been no changes as of today to"},{"t":3959,"text":"the covenant that was adopted, that was registered on title."},{"t":3962,"text":"However, the application before Council today does require amendments"},{"t":3966,"text":"to the covenant to allow for the development to be included on the site"},{"t":3970,"text":"plan, and amendments to the tree covenant to,"},{"t":3974,"text":"uh, update the proposed development as per the"},{"t":3979,"text":"plans that are before Council. Thank you, appreciate that clarification."},{"t":3983,"text":"Thank you. Anybody else?"},{"t":3987,"text":"Councillor Thompson, your hand is up again. Do you wish to speak a second time?"},{"t":3991,"text":"Uh, sorry, that's a legacy hand. I'll put that down. Thank you very much."},{"t":3996,"text":"All right, I'm not seeing any other questions or comments. So on the matter that"},{"t":3999,"text":"is before Council, as you can see on the screen, All those in favor of"},{"t":4002,"text":"the staff recommendation? Councillor Dell,"},{"t":4005,"text":"Councillor Kim— thank you— Councillor Cardona,"},{"t":4009,"text":"Councillor Loughton, myself, Councillor Thompson. In opposition?"},{"t":4014,"text":"Councillor Coleman, Councillor Gardner, and Councillor Hammond. Noting 3 in opposition,"},{"t":4019,"text":"that recommendation is approved. Uh,"},{"t":4022,"text":"that moves us on to item I, a further staff report— or rather,"},{"t":4025,"text":"a staff report on the Noise Bylaw review."},{"t":4030,"text":"I believe there is a presentation on this. Just let"},{"t":4035,"text":"our staff come forward, get themselves settled."},{"t":4058,"text":"Uh, thank you, Mayor. If I may, just, uh, quick, and just to introduce,"},{"t":4061,"text":"uh, the staff today, it's— we have with us today our policy analyst"},{"t":4065,"text":"Barry Nichols, and shortly Monica Fetichkowski will attend as well,"},{"t":4069,"text":"and they will be, uh, presenting the noise bylaw"},{"t":4073,"text":"review that we've done as long— along with the staff recommendations. Might I"},{"t":4077,"text":"ask, Mr. Kingsley, how long is the presentation?"},{"t":4081,"text":"10 minutes? Okay. I suggest then, given the timing,"},{"t":4084,"text":"that we proceed with the presentation, but we will likely take a break before questions."},{"t":4130,"text":"Pardon me while I catch my breath. I was just running up the stairs to"},{"t":4133,"text":"get here. That's okay. Um, good morning, Mayor and Council."},{"t":4137,"text":"I'm Monica. This is Barry. We're also joined in person and online"},{"t":4141,"text":"by an army of staff who have helped us come to these conclusions"},{"t":4145,"text":"and develop these recommendations. We will be answering your questions,"},{"t":4148,"text":"so will they. Monica, can you pull your microphone in just a little"},{"t":4151,"text":"bit? It's just a little bit— yes, thank you. How's that?"},{"t":4155,"text":"Much better."},{"t":4160,"text":"Perfect. Today we are bringing forward recommendations to simplify and clarify"},{"t":4164,"text":"the city's noise bylaw regulation framework. We are aiming"},{"t":4168,"text":"to streamline enforcement, address common sources of noise complaints,"},{"t":4172,"text":"and support a balanced approach— sorry, support a balanced approach"},{"t":4176,"text":"to residents, businesses, industry, construction events,"},{"t":4179,"text":"and city operations."},{"t":4185,"text":"The city's current noise bylaw was adopted in 2003."},{"t":4188,"text":"It serves to protect quality of life, balance community needs,"},{"t":4192,"text":"provide standards, and provide enforcement— provide for enforcement."},{"t":4196,"text":"It regulates through noise districts, decibel limits, permitted hours,"},{"t":4200,"text":"and general nuisance provisions. It also contains exemptions mainly"},{"t":4204,"text":"for noise sources outside of the city's jurisdiction. Jurisdiction."},{"t":4208,"text":"It also works with other sound mitigation tools and approaches."},{"t":4213,"text":"We would like to note it is primarily a reactive tool that addresses sound"},{"t":4217,"text":"after it occurs through complaints, investigation, and enforcement."},{"t":4225,"text":"So the bylaw works well in many ways not represented"},{"t":4229,"text":"on this slide. Uh, it explores land uses and"},{"t":4233,"text":"it, uh, it sets decibel limits that were established"},{"t":4237,"text":"by an acoustical engineer, and it has time-based restrictions"},{"t":4241,"text":"that work very well. There are also issues with the noise bylaw."},{"t":4245,"text":"The first that we arrived at was that the noise districts are"},{"t":4249,"text":"outdated. They were established in the land use patterns developed prior to 2003"},{"t":4254,"text":"and have not changed since— or primary— sorry,"},{"t":4257,"text":"the noise districts have not changed The use has certainly changed."},{"t":4262,"text":"We— there's issues with the different decibel limits across 4"},{"t":4266,"text":"districts, which creates complexity. Measuring decibel limits are"},{"t":4270,"text":"complex and resource intensive. They must be done by our staff, by calibrated"},{"t":4274,"text":"equipment, and correction factors must be applied. It must"},{"t":4278,"text":"also— the decibel limits must also be measured at the"},{"t":4282,"text":"time of the complaint. Decibel limits are useful"},{"t":4286,"text":"for some sources but not useful for others. Uh, the hours of operations."},{"t":4291,"text":"Another issue is that our hours of operations vary for similar sources,"},{"t":4295,"text":"some starting at 7, some for at 8, some at 9."},{"t":4299,"text":"There are conflicting rules, there are incomplete definitions,"},{"t":4303,"text":"some of the times do not reflect current business context"},{"t":4307,"text":"and operational realities. The bylaw is notably not effective"},{"t":4311,"text":"for addressing vehicle noise, something that comes up through our engagement"},{"t":4315,"text":"as a key issue. And a staff finding is that we"},{"t":4319,"text":"overly rely on the noise bylaw to address our noise issues where other tools"},{"t":4324,"text":"may be better suited, and we'll go into that later."},{"t":4329,"text":"The city sought a comprehensive understanding of our current community"},{"t":4333,"text":"and business experiences with sound and noise. From December 2025"},{"t":4337,"text":"to February 2026, the city invited community members and businesses"},{"t":4341,"text":"to share their experience. We received"},{"t":4345,"text":"a lot of engagement with a high response rate. We launched two online"},{"t":4348,"text":"surveys. The community survey received a response rate of 1,639"},{"t":4353,"text":"responses, and the business survey received 59 responses."},{"t":4358,"text":"And there were six engagement— business engagement sessions held with 31"},{"t":4362,"text":"organizations attending from various sectors."},{"t":4371,"text":"Now, there is an engagement summary attached to the report that's far more comprehensive."},{"t":4375,"text":"This is a small distillation of what we heard that we wish to highlight."},{"t":4380,"text":"So from residents, we heard that they value quiet, predictability,"},{"t":4383,"text":"and protection from disruption in the morning and in the late night."},{"t":4387,"text":"We heard concerns about vehicle noise, construction, waste collection,"},{"t":4391,"text":"power equipment, and amplified music. And we"},{"t":4394,"text":"heard that they would like— that residents would like rules that are easier to understand"},{"t":4398,"text":"and more consistently enforced. From business and operators,"},{"t":4402,"text":"we heard that they need flexibility to operate in the day"},{"t":4406,"text":"and the night. And they, through this engagement, they highlighted the normal"},{"t":4410,"text":"operational sounds that they wish for us to be aware of as we drafted the"},{"t":4414,"text":"regulations. And they asked for clear communication about"},{"t":4417,"text":"rules, simpler permitting processes, and more context"},{"t":4422,"text":"sensitive enforcement. Between the two of them, there were some common themes. Both wished for"},{"t":4426,"text":"predictability. Operators further wanted some flexibility."},{"t":4431,"text":"Excuse me. Both had a desire for balance,"},{"t":4435,"text":"for clarity, and for enforcement. And in general,"},{"t":4439,"text":"most of our respondents and attendees were satisfied"},{"t":4442,"text":"with the rules that were there but wanted them to be clarified, wished for"},{"t":4447,"text":"them to to be communicated better and asked for more consistency with their enforcement."},{"t":4458,"text":"Core challenges that we identified through Victoria for our noise"},{"t":4462,"text":"bylaw was achieving balance between residents and businesses, as well"},{"t":4466,"text":"as, uh, consideration for our resource constraints"},{"t":4469,"text":"and our ability to enforce the bylaw. So Victoria is a growing"},{"t":4472,"text":"mixed-use city, some sound is to be expected as part of our urban"},{"t":4476,"text":"life, uh, but citizens, residents need protection,"},{"t":4480,"text":"and businesses need protection from unreasonable disturbance."},{"t":4483,"text":"Businesses, construction, industry events, and services require workable hours and"},{"t":4487,"text":"operating conditions so that they can be successful, and the bylaw must"},{"t":4491,"text":"be understandable and enforceable with the available resources."},{"t":4496,"text":"Now I'll hand it over to Barry to go over the recommended regulatory approach."},{"t":4500,"text":"Thank you."},{"t":4504,"text":"Thank you. Good morning, Mayor and Council. So the core of the recommendation is"},{"t":4508,"text":"use the right tool for each sound rather than one method for everything."},{"t":4512,"text":"The bylaw has three core tools: decibel limits, permitted hours,"},{"t":4516,"text":"and a general prohibition. Each has very— in different—"},{"t":4521,"text":"each has very different enforcement costs and resourcing."},{"t":4524,"text":"Time-based rules are the easiest to enforce, while decibel limits are the hardest."},{"t":4529,"text":"We're looking at keeping a general prohibition as it catches disturbances that"},{"t":4534,"text":"don't fit a category, and it's the backstop for everything else."},{"t":4538,"text":"We want to keep decibel limits where sound can be turned down or contained."},{"t":4541,"text":"This includes things like amplified music, HVAC,"},{"t":4545,"text":"commercial premises. These also can be mitigated with soundproofing and barriers."},{"t":4550,"text":"We want to use permitted hours where sound can't be reasonably reduced."},{"t":4554,"text":"There's no dial on a chainsaw or an excavator."},{"t":4557,"text":"Decibel limits there just create expectations that can't be met."},{"t":4562,"text":"Better definitions also matter, as they need to match the rules."},{"t":4566,"text":"The report flags gaps around industry, construction,"},{"t":4570,"text":"commercial vehicle activity, and the point of reception. So we want to improve those definitions."},{"t":4578,"text":"So this is a quick overview, a little snapshot in a table form."},{"t":4584,"text":"This table is really just our logic test. We're matching the tool to the sound"},{"t":4588,"text":"so the rules are enforceable with the resources we have."},{"t":4591,"text":"Decibel limits will be used for amplified sound. You know, volume can be"},{"t":4596,"text":"adjusted, equipment can be relocated or screened."},{"t":4599,"text":"Permitted hours for power equipment such as leaf blowers,"},{"t":4602,"text":"chainsaws— these routinely exceed the thresholds in normal use, so hours"},{"t":4607,"text":"are simpler for everyone to understand and apply."},{"t":4610,"text":"General prohibition for certain categories that might not fall in,"},{"t":4614,"text":"you know, or easily be, uh, reviewed. So an example there may be"},{"t":4618,"text":"a house party."},{"t":4624,"text":"And permits for construction and special events where solutions"},{"t":4627,"text":"are things like public notice and certain other conditions."},{"t":4634,"text":"So what does the regulatory, regulatory approach do?"},{"t":4639,"text":"Noise districts are out, and instead, use-based rules are in. In a mixed-use"},{"t":4643,"text":"city, residential, commercial, and industrial can sit in one building or"},{"t":4647,"text":"one city block. So boundaries no longer track reality."},{"t":4651,"text":"Use-based rules update themselves as property uses change."},{"t":4655,"text":"Decibel limits stay where they're practical, and we move the point of reception"},{"t":4659,"text":"closer to the source. The bylaw currently"},{"t":4662,"text":"measures at the complainant's location, and it often makes it hard to separate"},{"t":4667,"text":"the affounding sound from ambient noise. We want to"},{"t":4670,"text":"look at clear permitted hours for construction, power equipment,"},{"t":4674,"text":"and waste collection, better definitions for industrial"},{"t":4678,"text":"premises, including things like loud, loud work and quiet work with"},{"t":4682,"text":"construction, as well as waste collection and commercial vehicle distinctions."},{"t":4687,"text":"A faster, cheaper exemption process. The current one takes 10"},{"t":4691,"text":"business days, an acoustical assessment, and letters of support,"},{"t":4696,"text":"which often costs more than, uh, the fine for non-compliance,"},{"t":4701,"text":"as well as complimentary work with things like education,"},{"t":4705,"text":"reviewing land use compatibility, and waste collection review."},{"t":4713,"text":"So here it is in practice. We want to look at"},{"t":4716,"text":"residential, commercial, and industrial rules that replace districts."},{"t":4721,"text":"We want to have construction with definitions for loud work and"},{"t":4724,"text":"quiet work. Uh, currently we're also looking at, uh,"},{"t":4728,"text":"keeping the hours for construction and actually extending them for"},{"t":4732,"text":"Saturday by 1 hour. We also"},{"t":4736,"text":"want to have, uh, power equipment use hours of operation."},{"t":4743,"text":"Consistent rules for waste collection and commercial"},{"t":4748,"text":"amplification on outdoor premises. We want that to actually match"},{"t":4753,"text":"existing rules around public use, public use of patios."},{"t":4756,"text":"So talking about outdoor amplification till 10:00 PM"},{"t":4760,"text":"and, and also"},{"t":4764,"text":"actually aligning with other jurisdictions like Toronto and Vancouver."},{"t":4769,"text":"We want to have more rules and clarifications around HVAC,"},{"t":4772,"text":"as this is a growing concern for some residents."},{"t":4775,"text":"And we want to improve the exemption and permit process so that's more"},{"t":4779,"text":"efficient and effective."},{"t":4785,"text":"Lastly, what else can complement the noise bylaw?"},{"t":4790,"text":"So what we're proposing are measures that will more broadly address noise"},{"t":4794,"text":"issues in the city. There's many things that we can do to address noise that"},{"t":4797,"text":"don't just only fall within the noise bylaw. Firstly, we want to"},{"t":4801,"text":"look at education and communication. This includes things like"},{"t":4805,"text":"a better webpage organized by, uh, noise sources covering"},{"t":4808,"text":"what's permitted, what's exempt, how to complain, and what happens"},{"t":4812,"text":"next. Engagement showed us that many people assume rules"},{"t":4816,"text":"exist but don't understand them. We want to look at a simpler exemption"},{"t":4820,"text":"permit process so compliance is cheaper than a fine."},{"t":4824,"text":"This also includes broader things like land use review for things like"},{"t":4828,"text":"industry and residential compatibility."},{"t":4831,"text":"Lastly, the, the top noise complaint that we heard"},{"t":4835,"text":"from the members of the public and residents was actually vehicle noise."},{"t":4839,"text":"So there's other things that the city already does that actually addresses many"},{"t":4844,"text":"of those conflicts, and the city could look at doing more of that work."},{"t":4847,"text":"So that may include things like traffic calming, corridor redesign,"},{"t":4851,"text":"and road resurfacing. We'll also continue"},{"t":4855,"text":"to explore waste collection strategies in residential areas."},{"t":4863,"text":"So to conclude our presentation, the current framework is complex,"},{"t":4866,"text":"contradictory at times, and outdated, and it's very difficult"},{"t":4870,"text":"to enforce consistently. Engagement confirmed there is a desire"},{"t":4874,"text":"for a balanced approach between businesses and residents."},{"t":4877,"text":"Residents. The recommended framework improves clarity and"},{"t":4881,"text":"enforceability. It balances residential livability"},{"t":4885,"text":"with the realities of a vibrant mixed-use city. For those reasons,"},{"t":4890,"text":"we recommend the following, and we're happy to take any questions from council."},{"t":4894,"text":"Thank you both very much. Given that, as I indicated earlier, it is now 10:25,"},{"t":4898,"text":"it is usually when we take a bit of a break, so we will rise"},{"t":4901,"text":"temporarily until 10:35, and then we'll return with questions."},{"t":5661,"text":"Good morning, folks. If we could take our seats again, please."},{"t":5673,"text":"I know, it's great. That's true, it is like goldfish."},{"t":5676,"text":"All right, thank you very much for that excellent presentation. Let us begin"},{"t":5680,"text":"with questions."},{"t":5683,"text":"Questions? Go ahead, Councilor Kerodono."},{"t":5688,"text":"Thank you, staff, for doing this incredible work. I know it's"},{"t":5692,"text":"been a long road and there's been a lot of consultation. And I appreciate"},{"t":5696,"text":"all the insights from the public and all the work that you've done to make"},{"t":5699,"text":"this pretty comprehensible. I have a few questions, maybe starting"},{"t":5703,"text":"with the one about the construction noise, because in the version I read,"},{"t":5707,"text":"it said 9:00 AM onward. And then we got a bunch of emails about it,"},{"t":5711,"text":"and the small-scale builders were freaking out. And then apparently"},{"t":5714,"text":"it got republished. So I just want to clarify what exactly happened."},{"t":5718,"text":"Mr. Nichols. Thank you for the question. Um,"},{"t":5722,"text":"the body of the report always said"},{"t":5726,"text":"that the hours were going to remain the same for construction on weekdays."},{"t":5729,"text":"What happened was there is a table summarizing various changes and"},{"t":5734,"text":"a typo was in the table. Staff noticed"},{"t":5738,"text":"it and changed it. So there was essentially in"},{"t":5742,"text":"one spot of the report it said, uh, you know, Monday through Friday would"},{"t":5746,"text":"be 7 to 7, which is the current rules, and we're not touching them."},{"t":5749,"text":"And then we would actually be extending from 10 to 7. We'd be"},{"t":5754,"text":"changing it from 9 to 7 on Saturdays, and that was supposed"},{"t":5757,"text":"to be summarized in the table, but the table just said 9 to 7."},{"t":5760,"text":"It only summarized the Saturday change, so it came across"},{"t":5764,"text":"like, uh, Monday through Friday was changing. Staff noticed this and"},{"t":5768,"text":"corrected it during republishing, and that's probably why some"},{"t":5772,"text":"questions were received around those changes. Okay, that is helpful."},{"t":5776,"text":"So I guess that settles the issue for the weekdays,"},{"t":5779,"text":"and I'm not going to read these emails now because it sounds moot, but the"},{"t":5783,"text":"upshot of that, of those emails, was that folks"},{"t":5787,"text":"working in the trades and sub-trades generally start working at 7 AM, right? To start"},{"t":5791,"text":"work at 9 would be profoundly disruptive. But that's weekdays."},{"t":5795,"text":"Do we have a sense of whether or not folks in"},{"t":5798,"text":"the trades and sub-trades are also tending to work at 7:00 AM on Saturdays?"},{"t":5807,"text":"Yeah, through our business engagement, that's what we were hearing, is that on Saturdays their"},{"t":5811,"text":"employees, the construction company's employees, do wish to work earlier"},{"t":5815,"text":"and that it would facilitate the work moving along faster."},{"t":5819,"text":"And for that reason, we came back with a proposal to at least"},{"t":5823,"text":"drop the hours from— move it from 10:00 AM to 9:00 AM. Okay,"},{"t":5826,"text":"so if I can clarify, what, what does the bylaw say right now?"},{"t":5830,"text":"For Saturdays it says 10 to 7. Okay, we're suggesting"},{"t":5834,"text":"9 to 7. Okay, so it would sort of loosen that,"},{"t":5838,"text":"so to speak, on Saturdays, but the bylaw currently says 7"},{"t":5842,"text":"AM for weekdays, so that is unchanged?"},{"t":5846,"text":"The weekdays are unchanged, 7 to 7. Okay, so then can you just help me"},{"t":5849,"text":"understand what the difference is then between the loud and the quiet,"},{"t":5855,"text":"the loud and the quiet permits. How does that work then?"},{"t":5860,"text":"Yes, so the way the bylaw's currently written and seems to"},{"t":5864,"text":"be understood, something we've gained through engagement is that there's this"},{"t":5868,"text":"expectation in the public that construction is only"},{"t":5871,"text":"occurring between the permitted hours."},{"t":5876,"text":"With good reason, that assumption is out there. But work is still,"},{"t":5880,"text":"by the bylaw, permitted to happen outside those hours."},{"t":5883,"text":"They just can't be disturbing. Okay."},{"t":5887,"text":"So, so just to clarify, so if you're on a job site,"},{"t":5891,"text":"presumably the loud, the loud hours would be 7 to 7."},{"t":5895,"text":"But one could, in theory, start work at 6 or end work"},{"t":5899,"text":"at 8. But that, in those, in those shoulder"},{"t":5902,"text":"hours, one could not be loud. Is that correct?"},{"t":5906,"text":"So the way we understand work to be happening right now is it can happen"},{"t":5909,"text":"24/7, and it is happening 24/7 in some cases."},{"t":5914,"text":"And yes, we wish to continue that."},{"t":5917,"text":"It's just through seeking better definition and clarification around quiet"},{"t":5921,"text":"and loud noise, then we would be able to articulate to the public what"},{"t":5925,"text":"is currently happening better. Okay. By saying painting, drywalling, whatever could"},{"t":5929,"text":"happen at night, so long as you're the neighbors are not bothered by it."},{"t":5933,"text":"Okay, that makes sense. And then in terms of the permits, definitely we"},{"t":5936,"text":"heard some of the feedback that it's complicated to get the permit and time-consuming"},{"t":5940,"text":"and it adds hassle. And how are we streamlining the permitting?"},{"t":5944,"text":"If you are— I'm particularly thinking about the small-scale builders."},{"t":5948,"text":"I'm not as worried about the big players who have a lot of resources."},{"t":5951,"text":"But if you're doing a deck or a reno or something"},{"t":5955,"text":"like that, how do we streamline this permit? System around the loud and"},{"t":5959,"text":"the quiet permits? Because presumably they're different permits,"},{"t":5963,"text":"or you're ticking a different box on the permit, or maybe you can help me"},{"t":5966,"text":"understand, help us understand. Is there actually a different permit for loud and quiet,"},{"t":5970,"text":"or what does that mean? Um, through the mayor, right now there is"},{"t":5975,"text":"a noise exemption permit for essentially loud work,"},{"t":5979,"text":"um, where businesses can apply to do certain loud"},{"t":5984,"text":"work on certain days of the that they may not be entitled to, or certain"},{"t":5987,"text":"times. We're looking at streamlining"},{"t":5992,"text":"and making the noise exemption permit process"},{"t":5996,"text":"more efficient so that we can encourage businesses"},{"t":6000,"text":"to use those processes, because those processes provide"},{"t":6005,"text":"clarity to the public. It also allows us to establish certain guidelines"},{"t":6010,"text":"and transparency transparency around why noise might be"},{"t":6014,"text":"occurring outside of hours. Right now we receive complaints around"},{"t":6019,"text":"businesses that might be doing work outside of permitted hours and they may have"},{"t":6023,"text":"actually received a permit and the public doesn't even know that. Right. So part of"},{"t":6027,"text":"the pro— so what we're looking at is more transparency around"},{"t":6030,"text":"that process and encouraging businesses to use that process."},{"t":6035,"text":"Okay, that makes sense. And just to clarify, if you are doing"},{"t":6039,"text":"a deck or whatever it is, you're a contractor and you are operating within the"},{"t":6043,"text":"bounds of the law, that is to say you're making noise only between 7:00 and"},{"t":6046,"text":"7:00 and then doing maybe quiet work, whatever, do you actually need a"},{"t":6050,"text":"permit related to noise or are you just automatically compliant with the bylaw?"},{"t":6057,"text":"A noise exemption permit wouldn't be required for that type of work."},{"t":6060,"text":"Okay, so you only need a noise exemption permit if you're, if you're proposing"},{"t":6064,"text":"to do something outside of the hours that are proposed. There's not"},{"t":6067,"text":"like a superfluous permit that you need even if you're compliant? No."},{"t":6071,"text":"Okay, thank you. That is, is helpful, and I think for me satisfies"},{"t":6074,"text":"the concerns I had around construction. Moving forward,"},{"t":6078,"text":"um, maybe talk about vehicles next."},{"t":6081,"text":"It— for me personally, the number one complaint I hear around noise, it comes from"},{"t":6085,"text":"vehicles. It comes up quite a bit in the report."},{"t":6088,"text":"I know it's hard to enforce because the motorcycle has"},{"t":6092,"text":"left or the car without a muffler has left, and How do you possibly track"},{"t":6095,"text":"that? So I get, I get why it's challenging, but for me, it does gesture"},{"t":6099,"text":"back to this conversation we've been having about noise enforcement cameras."},{"t":6103,"text":"And I asked the Chief of Police about this when she was here a month"},{"t":6106,"text":"or two ago, and she said she would go do some research on it because"},{"t":6109,"text":"I think there's a bit of a lack of clarity around jurisdiction. I mean,"},{"t":6112,"text":"do we like— does the MVA supersede"},{"t":6116,"text":"our jurisdiction for the noise bylaw? And if so,"},{"t":6121,"text":"So let me back up. If the city were interested in pursuing some"},{"t":6126,"text":"kind of noise enforcement cameras, would that require provincial approval?"},{"t":6130,"text":"Can we do that under our own bylaw? How does that dovetail with the MVA?"},{"t":6135,"text":"What are our options? Vehicles?"},{"t":6139,"text":"Generally speaking, vehicle noise is best"},{"t":6142,"text":"regulated under the MVA. So police enforcement,"},{"t":6145,"text":"essentially. Um, when it comes to noise cameras,"},{"t":6149,"text":"that's also really, uh, something that would require"},{"t":6154,"text":"municipalities to work closely with the province due to the jurisdiction"},{"t":6157,"text":"around the MVA. Um,"},{"t":6160,"text":"there actually has been UBCM work on it, some, uh, resolutions recently,"},{"t":6165,"text":"and the province has said that they're open to discuss it further with municipalities."},{"t":6169,"text":"And I believe Port Moody is leading a lot of work on that."},{"t":6174,"text":"So if that's something council would like to explore further, I would encourage council"},{"t":6178,"text":"to review some of the UBCM work around it and maybe provide"},{"t":6182,"text":"some council direction to staff to review that further as well. Okay,"},{"t":6186,"text":"so it sounds like that would have to go through advocacy or UBCM or something"},{"t":6190,"text":"like that. I mean, we couldn't install a noise enforcement camera"},{"t":6194,"text":"right now through the mayor? That's my understanding, yes."},{"t":6198,"text":"Okay. That's helpful. So I mean, I'm just trying to figure out"},{"t":6201,"text":"what else in the short term we can possibly be doing about"},{"t":6205,"text":"loud motorcycles, vehicles without mufflers, because I hear what you're saying around"},{"t":6210,"text":"traffic calming and paving roads and things"},{"t":6213,"text":"like that. And that's all well and good. But if you don't have a muffler"},{"t":6216,"text":"and you're ripping around at 5:00 AM, I mean, there's been studies on this,"},{"t":6219,"text":"I think, in Paris and elsewhere, with one really loud vehicle can"},{"t":6222,"text":"wake like thousands of people. It's a huge disruption. What can we realistically"},{"t":6227,"text":"do right now? By the time you phone police, that person is ripped off"},{"t":6231,"text":"to wherever else. So are we just— are we just stuck around"},{"t":6235,"text":"vehicle noise? Really, practically speaking, like, what can we possibly be doing?"},{"t":6241,"text":"Either one of you want to try that?"},{"t":6246,"text":"To answer that, it would be— historically,"},{"t":6249,"text":"there was a role once played by the municipality"},{"t":6253,"text":"to inspect vehicles to make sure they're"},{"t":6257,"text":"in proper maintenance and not exceeding noise levels."},{"t":6261,"text":"To our understanding, that's not happening anymore. Um,"},{"t":6265,"text":"that was provincial as well, under provincial jurisdiction. Is that in our MVA?"},{"t":6268,"text":"Yeah, uh, under the MVA. Sorry, I'm just wondering if that"},{"t":6272,"text":"was— that was probably provincial jurisdiction, I assume. This was happening through"},{"t":6276,"text":"our police to my understanding. I'm not entirely sure"},{"t":6280,"text":"what happened to that program, but it isn't happening"},{"t":6283,"text":"anymore, and I'm not sure about the feasibility of it either."},{"t":6288,"text":"Okay. Yeah, through the mayor, if I may add,"},{"t":6293,"text":"um, vehicle noise is always best addressed through the police. Our bylaw"},{"t":6298,"text":"officers are not the appropriate resource. They don't have the same training"},{"t":6302,"text":"around traffic or resources to do traffic stops that the police"},{"t":6306,"text":"do. So when it comes to, um, you know,"},{"t":6309,"text":"certain vehicle noise issues under the MVA, which does actually regulate things"},{"t":6314,"text":"like muffler noise and, uh, you know, loud vehicles, uh,"},{"t":6318,"text":"municipalities often rely on the police to enforce."},{"t":6322,"text":"Okay, I'll let residents know that. Last question for me is around"},{"t":6326,"text":"gas-powered blowers. I know that Oak Bay has banned"},{"t":6330,"text":"them. There's a couple of allusions in here to the fact that local"},{"t":6334,"text":"governments do have the regulatory authority. What would council"},{"t":6339,"text":"need to do in terms of direction to staff to actually ban gas-powered"},{"t":6342,"text":"blowers? Mr. Nichols."},{"t":6347,"text":"Through the Mayor, yes, municipalities do have the authority,"},{"t":6352,"text":"from our understanding, to regulate gas-powered leaf blowers."},{"t":6357,"text":"What we would require is probably new direction from council"},{"t":6361,"text":"to make it explicitly clear around timelines."},{"t":6365,"text":"Typically these processes are obviously phased because they have significant implications"},{"t":6370,"text":"on businesses, but also municipal operations."},{"t":6374,"text":"So that's something that staff could certainly— staff's already done some"},{"t":6378,"text":"research on before in the past. Staff could certainly present a report to council with"},{"t":6382,"text":"options, with new direction. Would that be— through the mayor— would that"},{"t":6386,"text":"be best coming forward as an amendment today to work towards phasing out"},{"t":6389,"text":"gas-powered blowers, or would it need to be a motion arising and separate work?"},{"t":6393,"text":"Noting that there's— looks like there's been several reports on this in the past,"},{"t":6396,"text":"2021, 2023. It sounds like you've been down this path before."},{"t":6402,"text":"Uh, through the mayor, there's been previous direction that's been,"},{"t":6406,"text":"um, squeezed into the noise bylaw around"},{"t":6410,"text":"gas-powered leaf blowers, if I could put it that way."},{"t":6414,"text":"So, um, you know, it may be helpful to have separate"},{"t":6418,"text":"direction just so that staff could move forward with the recommendations today,"},{"t":6422,"text":"but I might pass over to, uh, Kingsley. Mr. Kingsley, uh,"},{"t":6425,"text":"thank you, Mayor. If I may, the gas-powered"},{"t":6429,"text":"leaf blowers, it certainly does intersect with the noise bylaw, and I guess"},{"t":6433,"text":"my general suggestion would be if council wishes to regulate"},{"t":6438,"text":"them through the noise bylaw, it can can certainly give us direction to do so,"},{"t":6441,"text":"and we could report back on, on any implications of doing so."},{"t":6445,"text":"However, I would suggest more generally, if it's just a general prohibition of"},{"t":6449,"text":"the use of them that council's interested in, the noise bylaw may not"},{"t":6453,"text":"be the appropriate bylaw to do that under. And so a general direction to staff"},{"t":6457,"text":"to just bring you bylaws that would prohibit them is what I would recommend,"},{"t":6461,"text":"and we would approach it through that lens. Okay, I guess I'll do it as"},{"t":6464,"text":"a motion arising then. Get there. Thanks, Mayor. I'm not sure, just FYI, that I"},{"t":6468,"text":"would consider that a motion arising given what Mr. Kingsley just said. Oh, because it's"},{"t":6472,"text":"not necessarily— would it be necessarily beneficial to confine it to this"},{"t":6477,"text":"workaround, the noise bylaw? A separate recommendation around"},{"t":6480,"text":"whatever bylaws, policies, changes might need to"},{"t":6484,"text":"be made in general to achieve the outcome of prohibiting gas-powered"},{"t":6489,"text":"blowers would be something that wasn't shouldn't be tied just to this."},{"t":6493,"text":"That could come forward separately."},{"t":6496,"text":"Any more questions? I'm going to go to Councillor Hammond first and then Councillor Loppen,"},{"t":6501,"text":"and then Councillor Lopes. Great, thanks, Mayor."},{"t":6505,"text":"And I know I'm not alone when, when I say that as a councillor"},{"t":6509,"text":"we get a lot of comments about noise and a lot of complaints. So I've"},{"t":6513,"text":"got a few questions. When companies violate the times that"},{"t":6517,"text":"they can create noise, often early in the morning."},{"t":6521,"text":"It's been very clear that some businesses thumb their noses"},{"t":6525,"text":"at our time restrictions and do the noisy work and take the consequences."},{"t":6529,"text":"At the moment, what are those consequences?"},{"t":6535,"text":"What are the penalties? We have staff from Bylaw Services who would be"},{"t":6539,"text":"best suited to answer that. Very good. Hello."},{"t":6544,"text":"Adam Sheffield. Um, well, it depends on the violation."},{"t":6547,"text":"Um, if we're talking, um, for example, if construction"},{"t":6551,"text":"was happening outside of permitted times, uh,"},{"t":6554,"text":"the fine is $350 for that."},{"t":6558,"text":"Is that per incident? Yes."},{"t":6562,"text":"Yes. Okay. Well then, while we've got bylaw mayor through you,"},{"t":6566,"text":"um, are you able to give an opinion whether you think"},{"t":6569,"text":"let's say, for construction, that this is enough of a deterrent?"},{"t":6574,"text":"Mr. Sheffield?"},{"t":6579,"text":"I would guess that as the violations"},{"t":6582,"text":"continue to happen, perhaps the answer would be no."},{"t":6587,"text":"However, we are exploring additional tools to"},{"t":6591,"text":"be able to be more effective with our enforcement."},{"t":6596,"text":"Thanks, Mayor. And on that same vein, then I'll continue with that, then through"},{"t":6600,"text":"you, um, why is it that we don't"},{"t":6604,"text":"see anything here in these recommendations"},{"t":6607,"text":"about improving on, or say, let me"},{"t":6612,"text":"put it this way, creating penalties that will be effective"},{"t":6616,"text":"so that people won't do it as a cost of doing business?"},{"t":6623,"text":"Through the Mayor, the key of this work is making"},{"t":6628,"text":"the bylaw more enforceable, which means it's easier to enforce,"},{"t":6631,"text":"which means we could, you know, hypothetically issue"},{"t":6635,"text":"more penalties if there are issues that are continuously"},{"t":6639,"text":"arising. So through that vein, the key"},{"t":6644,"text":"is to be able to enforce more frequently and more efficiently."},{"t":6647,"text":"Now regarding fines, um, staff are,"},{"t":6651,"text":"you know, open-minded to reviewing fines. When we update our bylaws, we often"},{"t":6655,"text":"review the fines along those side, and we will certainly, if we can"},{"t":6659,"text":"take direction from council regarding, uh, the fine amounts as well."},{"t":6664,"text":"Thanks, Mayor. And just to be clear on some of these"},{"t":6668,"text":"things— oh, sorry, you were going to say something."},{"t":6672,"text":"With the way the bylaw is currently written for waste collection services,"},{"t":6676,"text":"there are some, so to speak, loopholes that enable"},{"t":6679,"text":"activity that we're not able to properly enforce. So I"},{"t":6683,"text":"don't think we have a proper picture right now of what fulsome"},{"t":6687,"text":"enforcement would look like until we're able to fix those loopholes."},{"t":6691,"text":"Once the loopholes are fixed, uh, we get"},{"t":6696,"text":"a better picture of how enforcement would work if the"},{"t":6700,"text":"system worked. But then also what Adam said,"},{"t":6704,"text":"we, yeah, it clearly isn't a deterrent at this point."},{"t":6708,"text":"Can you give us a couple examples of loopholes, please?"},{"t":6713,"text":"Yeah, it's the definition of waste collection vehicles doesn't"},{"t":6716,"text":"include the majority of the vehicles that do the waste collection,"},{"t":6721,"text":"right? So there's the large vehicles we're all very familiar with,"},{"t":6724,"text":"but then there's the support vehicles that are allowed to operate outside of that."},{"t":6727,"text":"Now I understand that Adam's team's been working hard to close that through"},{"t":6732,"text":"other means, but we hope to do it through this bylaw as well. Thanks."},{"t":6734,"text":"Sounds like more of a loop cave than a loophole. Okay,"},{"t":6738,"text":"that's really good to know. Thank you. Um,"},{"t":6742,"text":"yeah, and just to be clear on something like this, I could see, I could"},{"t":6746,"text":"see some of the changes, but I really need to see a"},{"t":6750,"text":"deterrent Better return. So, um, yeah,"},{"t":6753,"text":"just a second."},{"t":6757,"text":"Okay, I already asked that. Can you give us some"},{"t":6760,"text":"scale of how often people ask for exemptions to start"},{"t":6765,"text":"work earlier, as in percentages or numbers or anything along those lines?"},{"t":6773,"text":"Uh, through the mayor, we don't track"},{"t":6776,"text":"that through our department in Legislative Services. We do have planning staff"},{"t":6780,"text":"here that may be able to answer that question."},{"t":6784,"text":"And who might that be? Ah yes, hello, Mr. Mohart."},{"t":6790,"text":"Come join us."},{"t":6796,"text":"Good morning, Mayor and Council. Uh, Ryan Mohart, um, Assistant Director,"},{"t":6799,"text":"uh, Building and Inspection Services. Excuse me. Uh,"},{"t":6804,"text":"we see on average maybe 1 to 2, uh, noise exemption"},{"t":6807,"text":"applications per month."},{"t":6811,"text":"Thank you. Thanks very much. Okay, it's not that— it's not that many then."},{"t":6815,"text":"Um, and through you, Mayor, if someone asks for a permit for"},{"t":6819,"text":"time exemption, are the people close enough to be affected"},{"t":6823,"text":"by the noise— are they being given input?"},{"t":6828,"text":"Yeah. And, and, and you also— someone mentioned something about transparency."},{"t":6832,"text":"And I was wondering if you could also say what does that mean for input"},{"t":6837,"text":"before a permit is given and then information to the community after?"},{"t":6844,"text":"Who'd like to answer that question? Through the mayor."},{"t":6848,"text":"So the current bylaw allows the Chief Building Inspector to"},{"t":6852,"text":"issue a noise exemption with no further instruction."},{"t":6856,"text":"And so what we currently do is require a a"},{"t":6861,"text":"report from an acoustical consultant, so an expert that knows noise,"},{"t":6864,"text":"and who's going to be affected. And we also seek"},{"t":6870,"text":"input from those neighbours that are within that, that area identified as"},{"t":6874,"text":"likely to be affected by the increased noise. And so that is,"},{"t":6878,"text":"that is the current process for seeking neighbour,"},{"t":6882,"text":"neighbourhood, neighbour input. And therefore,"},{"t":6885,"text":"through the Mayor, would that mean that if"},{"t":6889,"text":"I'm living in an apartment building or a condo or some— something,"},{"t":6893,"text":"or even, I suppose, businesses,"},{"t":6896,"text":"is there a better chance that I would get some sort of notice, or is"},{"t":6900,"text":"it— is it something stuck on a wall,"},{"t":6904,"text":"or how are they given information about this?"},{"t":6907,"text":"Mr. Warhart? Yeah, through the Mayor. So the— the current—"},{"t":6911,"text":"so once the noise exemption is issued, on our permit tracker technologies,"},{"t":6915,"text":"you would be able to see that there was an exemption issued at that address."},{"t":6919,"text":"But otherwise, your notification that one had been"},{"t":6923,"text":"applied for would be through that contact. There's not"},{"t":6927,"text":"a system or a structure that exists currently other than the requirement"},{"t":6932,"text":"that the applicant reaches out to those that are likely to be affected based on"},{"t":6935,"text":"the acoustical consultant's report. Okay. Then maybe I've missed"},{"t":6939,"text":"something. Are, during the permitting process, which is what, a 10-day"},{"t":6944,"text":"process that is now being recommended to go to 5, are people"},{"t":6949,"text":"in the area who would be affected by the noise, are they,"},{"t":6953,"text":"um, are they given information about this? Are they consulted"},{"t":6957,"text":"at all about this beforehand?"},{"t":6961,"text":"Mr. Nichols? I,"},{"t":6965,"text":"I got this one. Through the Mayor, yes, there is requirements"},{"t":6969,"text":"from the applicant to reach out to properties that"},{"t":6974,"text":"they feel are— would be affected. So usually properties"},{"t":6977,"text":"within the immediate vicinity are contacted."},{"t":6982,"text":"What we're proposing as an improvement is more transparency"},{"t":6986,"text":"around the noise exemption process so that we could even publish active"},{"t":6990,"text":"exemptions online so people would actually have a source where"},{"t":6995,"text":"they could go online and see. So let's say if someone was not contacted,"},{"t":6998,"text":"maybe they're 2 blocks away, they could go online"},{"t":7002,"text":"and could see when something might be coming or why something"},{"t":7006,"text":"might be coming. That's part of the— one of the improvements we'd like to make."},{"t":7013,"text":"So right now the noise exemption permit process is seen as too cumbersome"},{"t":7017,"text":"by business, and that's what staff's experience is, what we're seeing is that they're not"},{"t":7022,"text":"receiving applications for a permit where it would otherwise be required. So while the"},{"t":7026,"text":"current process does require residents to be notified by the business,"},{"t":7030,"text":"that's not happening. Um, and we— if you're not applying"},{"t":7034,"text":"for a permit, then you're also not doing that communication piece."},{"t":7037,"text":"Um, we're trying to streamline that upfront process."},{"t":7041,"text":"So there's a few things that we want to cut down, make easier for the"},{"t":7045,"text":"business to apply. And we also propose that the city step into a role"},{"t":7048,"text":"where we're playing more of a communication role about the permit."},{"t":7052,"text":"Um, right now the businesses are saying we don't know"},{"t":7055,"text":"how to properly reach out to the residents. How— what,"},{"t":7059,"text":"what do we give them? What do we tell them? How is this"},{"t":7063,"text":"best conveyed? How do they believe us that this is true, that the"},{"t":7066,"text":"city did give us this permit? And so we're suggesting"},{"t":7070,"text":"that once we fix the actual permitting process to get more permits"},{"t":7074,"text":"on board, that then the city would be publishing those permits online"},{"t":7078,"text":"after we've approved them. And then at least the business"},{"t":7082,"text":"would be able to go out to residents and say, look online,"},{"t":7085,"text":"we have a permit, it's been approved by the city. And then our"},{"t":7089,"text":"hope is that this would become a familiar tool for the public who"},{"t":7093,"text":"are experiencing noise from construction to go to this place and to seek if"},{"t":7097,"text":"there's a permit. Of course they're too late, aren't they? Because the permit has"},{"t":7100,"text":"been given. If they, if they, if the public, someone in the public makes a"},{"t":7103,"text":"complaint after the fact, we,"},{"t":7107,"text":"we just get to say, well, we're being transparent, they were given the permit,"},{"t":7111,"text":"you got to put up with this loud noise, thank you very much. Yeah,"},{"t":7114,"text":"the sort of the underpinning concept behind a noise exemption permit"},{"t":7118,"text":"is not to restrict the work from happening, but to communicate that it is happening."},{"t":7122,"text":"So the role of the residents not like the way"},{"t":7126,"text":"that this noise exemption permit is designed currently is not to stop the"},{"t":7130,"text":"work in its tracks. Otherwise, work would often not happen at all."},{"t":7134,"text":"It's— we're looking for the best way for residents to be aware that"},{"t":7138,"text":"this is happening as soon as possible so they can plan for it. Okay,"},{"t":7141,"text":"and to be clear, it's not like the work is not happening, it's just not"},{"t":7144,"text":"happening an hour or two before they requested."},{"t":7148,"text":"Okay, so then this is really useful for for me, as in if"},{"t":7152,"text":"the public were to be given information, and it sounds like they're not,"},{"t":7155,"text":"prior to, there's no process now for"},{"t":7159,"text":"the public to say no."},{"t":7163,"text":"Is that correct? Someone's made a request to"},{"t":7166,"text":"ask for a permit for early, uh, for early work that's noisy,"},{"t":7170,"text":"early work and potentially noisy, and the public,"},{"t":7174,"text":"like, we would not take into consideration concerns of the public now. Is that"},{"t":7178,"text":"true? Question is really, is there input or is this simply"},{"t":7182,"text":"information sharing? Much better put, Mayor."},{"t":7187,"text":"Um, thank you. Through the Mayor, um, so currently we do, we do receive input"},{"t":7191,"text":"from neighbours and it's not always in favour, but that doesn't necessarily"},{"t":7194,"text":"translate to us, uh, not approving"},{"t":7198,"text":"exemption permit. And through the Mayor, has it ever led to not"},{"t":7203,"text":"issuing a permit? I can't think of a specific occasion, but I'm sure"},{"t":7207,"text":"there would have been occasions when just there's an overwhelming amount of"},{"t":7211,"text":"feedback, or maybe the request was too"},{"t":7216,"text":"excessive or something. But we do use the feedback, and often,"},{"t":7221,"text":"if not— if there aren't cases where we've rejected outright,"},{"t":7224,"text":"there have been cases where we work with the, the applicant to maybe meet"},{"t":7229,"text":"somewhere in the middle to offset some of the impacts,"},{"t":7232,"text":"but, but we still would issue an exemption."},{"t":7238,"text":"And through the Mayor, if I may build off that point, what we're seeing"},{"t":7242,"text":"when we get noise exemption permits, it's not because a company"},{"t":7245,"text":"wants to work at 3 AM for the sake of working at 3 AM."},{"t":7249,"text":"It's they may need to do something on a Sunday,"},{"t":7252,"text":"right? So it could be erecting a crane due to traffic."},{"t":7256,"text":"It could be some cement pouring. Those are the types"},{"t":7259,"text":"of requests that we typically see, right? And, and to"},{"t":7263,"text":"be clear, I'm, I'm sympathetic to the"},{"t":7267,"text":"needs and the flexibility of the business. Also, when we look at this,"},{"t":7271,"text":"and I'm sure every one of us as councillors get to say it's a balance,"},{"t":7274,"text":"everyone says it's a balance. I'm just concerned that there's not enough balance"},{"t":7278,"text":"on the side of the people who are the residents who are affected by the"},{"t":7281,"text":"noise. Um, okay, so I can make other comments about that that,"},{"t":7285,"text":"um, just one second. For garbage collection,"},{"t":7290,"text":"uh, in the activity district, the pickup is 6:00 a.m.,"},{"t":7294,"text":"and you were suggesting that the 6:00 a.m. start time should be throughout"},{"t":7298,"text":"the city. Do we have a map showing where"},{"t":7302,"text":"that activity district is versus the rest of the city?"},{"t":7310,"text":"Mr. Nichols, do you have any kind of a graphic that would show that?"},{"t":7318,"text":"At the break I was shown one. Through the mayor, I can get the map."},{"t":7321,"text":"I just need to flip it to the Deputy City Clerk. Okay,"},{"t":7324,"text":"great. Do you have another question, Councillor Hamilton, while they're doing that?"},{"t":7328,"text":"Sure, sure. There was sort of a list when I went through"},{"t":7332,"text":"one of the tables and— When"},{"t":7336,"text":"it was commented that 70 dBA, I was wondering,"},{"t":7340,"text":"isn't that kind of high for nighttime?"},{"t":7346,"text":"Yeah. Ms. Fedaszewski."},{"t":7349,"text":"With regard to the decibels, we're not suggesting any changes to the"},{"t":7353,"text":"decibel limits. Those limits were set by an acoustical"},{"t":7357,"text":"engineer back in 2003 and as far as we're aware, are still relevant."},{"t":7361,"text":"And just to ascertain that, we went and"},{"t":7365,"text":"did a jurisdiction scan of typical noise decibel limits for various"},{"t":7369,"text":"sectors, and this was consistent with those."},{"t":7372,"text":"Okay, and, and I know it's tough"},{"t":7376,"text":"to, um, tough to quantify or qualify,"},{"t":7380,"text":"but to, to my, to my, um,"},{"t":7383,"text":"original question, isn't that— isn't 70 decibels"},{"t":7387,"text":"still high for nighttime? It appears as though that would be what,"},{"t":7390,"text":"up to 10 o'clock, or does that shut down at 10 o'clock even?"},{"t":7395,"text":"You want to answer that question before we go back to the map?"},{"t":7398,"text":"Is that typical? Is it loud? So again, those decibel limits are"},{"t":7402,"text":"typical for that use. I would say that any perception"},{"t":7406,"text":"of decibel limits is entirely subjective."},{"t":7411,"text":"Okay. Mr. Nichols, do you want to explain this map, please?"},{"t":7417,"text":"Through the Mayor, what you're looking at is the map established"},{"t":7421,"text":"in 2002, adopted in 2003."},{"t":7424,"text":"I think actually 2001, it says in the bottom right there."},{"t":7428,"text":"This is the noise district map that establishes"},{"t":7432,"text":"various decibel limits across the city for essentially all"},{"t":7436,"text":"types of noise, and it's broken into 4"},{"t":7440,"text":"districts, but essentially really 3, because the Harbour Intermediate District is"},{"t":7444,"text":"actually now residential. You have the"},{"t":7448,"text":"Quiet District, the Intermediate District, and the Activity District."},{"t":7452,"text":"And the Activity District is in red. Through the Mayor, that is correct."},{"t":7456,"text":"The Activity District is red, the Intermediate District is yellow, and the Quiet"},{"t":7460,"text":"District is green. And at the moment, the only garbage collection"},{"t":7464,"text":"is it garbage collection and/or commercial, um, uh,"},{"t":7468,"text":"collection or commercial use that makes noise by vehicles?"},{"t":7472,"text":"It's only, uh, it's, it's at 6 o'clock in the activity center and"},{"t":7476,"text":"then 6:30 for the rest of the city. Is that correct? Through the Mayor,"},{"t":7480,"text":"that is correct. And again, just to be clear, because I was bumbling about"},{"t":7484,"text":"this, it would be for waste, any commercial activities, commercial, sorry, waste or"},{"t":7487,"text":"something else that makes noise, or, or, or trucks or other"},{"t":7491,"text":"vehicles perhaps. Through the mayor, the intent for those"},{"t":7495,"text":"times is garbage collection, waste collection, and private"},{"t":7499,"text":"garbage and waste collection. Okay, thank you."},{"t":7507,"text":"On the special events, there's no changes suggestion, but I hear from"},{"t":7511,"text":"several people, uh, about these concerns. Is there anything that we"},{"t":7515,"text":"can do to ensure that the DBAs are quickly enforced in real time."},{"t":7521,"text":"We have special events staff. Oh, perfect. Go ahead."},{"t":7528,"text":"I think that was you. Yeah,"},{"t":7532,"text":"we do have special— or Nicola Reddington or the"},{"t":7536,"text":"staff related to special events who are here to answer that, I believe, online or"},{"t":7540,"text":"in person. I don't think she's here."},{"t":7545,"text":"Through the Mayor, is Mr. Day there online?"},{"t":7550,"text":"Oh, yep, there he is. Hello, Mr. Day, how are you?"},{"t":7554,"text":"Good morning. Through the Mayor,"},{"t":7557,"text":"just a quick answer to that inquiry. We have done"},{"t":7560,"text":"sound monitoring at events where we have a"},{"t":7564,"text":"history of complaints,"},{"t":7568,"text":"but no, we don't have staff at every event that"},{"t":7572,"text":"receives a sound bylaw exemption for a special event. We simply"},{"t":7576,"text":"don't have the staff capacity for that. Okay. Thank you. And so if anyone"},{"t":7579,"text":"makes a complaint, then what happens?"},{"t":7583,"text":"Mr. Day? Through the mayor, we,"},{"t":7587,"text":"we get— collect feedback from community members on special"},{"t":7591,"text":"events through our event feedback email,"},{"t":7595,"text":"and those are reviewed on Monday morning when we come back if it's a weekend"},{"t":7599,"text":"event. Or the next day if it's a weekday event."},{"t":7603,"text":"Some people complain through the police"},{"t":7608,"text":"department. They're referred to provide feedback through the event feedback form"},{"t":7611,"text":"as well. There's also notification,"},{"t":7615,"text":"both broad notification, specific neighborhood notification to those areas that"},{"t":7620,"text":"are impacted, and that notification is required to"},{"t":7623,"text":"have a phone number for the event organizer for any"},{"t":7627,"text":"affected community residents to reach out directly to that organizer and provide feedback or"},{"t":7631,"text":"make an inquiry about the sound. And through you then, this is"},{"t":7634,"text":"always after the fact? Mr."},{"t":7637,"text":"Day? Uh, through the Mayor, the, the notification"},{"t":7642,"text":"of an event and, um,"},{"t":7646,"text":"an exemption being provided, that, that happens prior to the event. So residents,"},{"t":7651,"text":"uh, should have a copy of that notification and how best"},{"t":7656,"text":"to reach out to the event organizer or reach out to the city to provide"},{"t":7658,"text":"event feedback, um, that would be reviewed following the event."},{"t":7662,"text":"Yes. Right. So everything that you get"},{"t":7666,"text":"notice about this, someone, let's say, violates the noise, it's too"},{"t":7670,"text":"high, and you have no— the person has no repercussions,"},{"t":7674,"text":"and you, you review it afterwards. Is that right?"},{"t":7678,"text":"Mr. Day. Uh, through the Mayor, yes, our staff aren't"},{"t":7683,"text":"available, um, for calls during the event."},{"t":7688,"text":"Um, bylaw might comment more on their"},{"t":7691,"text":"availability, but my understanding is they're also not available during"},{"t":7695,"text":"those hours. So beyond"},{"t":7699,"text":"being referred to the event organizer directly, and the"},{"t":7703,"text":"phone number that's made available for them, their course"},{"t":7707,"text":"of action is to leave a message with our event feedback"},{"t":7711,"text":"system, and we'd gather and get back to the"},{"t":7715,"text":"event, to the complainant afterwards. Great. And so it's"},{"t":7719,"text":"the, I've got a problem, I happen to have a contact for"},{"t":7723,"text":"the person who's putting on the event, they say thank you very much, they don't"},{"t":7727,"text":"do anything about it. Is there, are there any penalties for"},{"t":7732,"text":"for them? Uh, through the mayor. Often event organizers,"},{"t":7735,"text":"if they're getting, uh, sudden feedback on, on an event,"},{"t":7739,"text":"uh, the first thing they'll do is check the boards and ensure, uh, they're in"},{"t":7744,"text":"compliance. I'll give an example of a large music festival"},{"t":7747,"text":"will have to do sound readings, uh, at intervals"},{"t":7751,"text":"throughout the event from prescribed locations, uh, to ensure"},{"t":7755,"text":"that they're under the decibel limits that they're given for those times."},{"t":7760,"text":"And that's if they're getting a number of complaints, they'll often take proactive"},{"t":7764,"text":"measures to ensure that their sound readers are measuring sound"},{"t":7768,"text":"that they're within compliance. And then they usually give that information back to the"},{"t":7773,"text":"community member. Sometimes the community members are not satisfied with that response and"},{"t":7777,"text":"wish that those thresholds were lower. And at that point, the event"},{"t":7780,"text":"organizer would refer them to the event feedback, uh, process."},{"t":7785,"text":"Thanks. And, and Mr. Day gave me a very good education lesson a"},{"t":7790,"text":"little while ago that was very understandable, um, so thank"},{"t":7794,"text":"you very much for that. I think I only have one other question,"},{"t":7797,"text":"or there's two others, uh, when it's to do with H— the"},{"t":7801,"text":"HVACs. I'm under the impression it's"},{"t":7804,"text":"air conditioning, heat pumps, and other mechanical devices. Is there"},{"t":7809,"text":"anything that's exempted in this? Or, or first of all, am I correct that when"},{"t":7812,"text":"we say HVAC, we're really including anything that makes noise outside"},{"t":7816,"text":"of the home? Mr. Nichols."},{"t":7820,"text":"Through the Mayor, uh, yes, uh, the report speaks more generally at"},{"t":7824,"text":"this point around the concepts of it. Uh, if council endorses"},{"t":7828,"text":"our recommendations, when we go into bylaw drafting stage, you would"},{"t":7831,"text":"see more, uh, uh,"},{"t":7834,"text":"specifics around what you're saying there. Um, when it"},{"t":7838,"text":"comes to HVAC and exemptions, is that—"},{"t":7842,"text":"was your question, uh, Councillor Hammond?"},{"t":7845,"text":"What's included in— or what's included? Or generally speaking,"},{"t":7849,"text":"we're talking about residential HVAC systems as"},{"t":7852,"text":"well as, uh, you know, maybe a commercial property."},{"t":7857,"text":"Okay. Oh, okay. Thank you very much. And my last question, I believe,"},{"t":7860,"text":"is On page 15 of your report, Table 5, I didn't quite"},{"t":7865,"text":"understand this. Could someone explain exactly what this means?"},{"t":7869,"text":"Page 15. Something specific that you're looking at, Councillor? Well, I just—"},{"t":7874,"text":"when it's got the— I wasn't sure why that's"},{"t":7879,"text":"in here to complement the noise bylaw. Evaluate current land use"},{"t":7882,"text":"policies. What will come of this? Right."},{"t":7886,"text":"So our work was focused primarily on a"},{"t":7890,"text":"noise bylaw review, looking what we could do to improve that instrument"},{"t":7894,"text":"to enforce what came out through the review, that it's not the perfect instrument"},{"t":7899,"text":"for addressing all sources of noise and that there could be better ones. Uh,"},{"t":7902,"text":"through our work with staff, through Jurisdiction Scan,"},{"t":7905,"text":"and through engagement, uh, with both residents and businesses"},{"t":7909,"text":"particularly, uh, we learned of other opportunities opportunities"},{"t":7912,"text":"outside the noise bylaw that the city could be exploring to address noise through—"},{"t":7917,"text":"in a more proactive method. And so the, the table that you're seeing"},{"t":7920,"text":"there are some of the suggestions we have that could be explored."},{"t":7924,"text":"Still very much early days, but looking at those to see"},{"t":7928,"text":"what options exist there for addressing noise outside of the noise"},{"t":7932,"text":"bylaw itself. Thanks very much. Thanks, Mayor. Very good."},{"t":7935,"text":"Councillor Lhoten, followed by Coleman, Thompson, and Councillor"},{"t":7939,"text":"Locatin, up to you. Thanks to you, Mayor. I just have a couple of follow-up"},{"t":7944,"text":"questions. One around"},{"t":7948,"text":"the, the vehicle noise. We'll start with that. There was a resident"},{"t":7952,"text":"who reached out to me about the speed limits on, on Dallas"},{"t":7956,"text":"Road, especially between Erie and Montreal. I'm just"},{"t":7960,"text":"going to read from them. It gets super busy with cruise ship visitors"},{"t":7963,"text":"plus residents and deer. So 40, the speed limit of"},{"t":7968,"text":"40 seems high. Well, people,"},{"t":7971,"text":"um, when people are even following that, but people are driving faster coming"},{"t":7976,"text":"around that corner by the Coast Guard gate, and it's dangerous."},{"t":7979,"text":"Fast drivers coming from Erie to Dallas at that corner"},{"t":7982,"text":"also tend to veer into the oncoming lane when flying around the bend."},{"t":7986,"text":"So I'm wondering, um,"},{"t":7990,"text":"they also Note that noise from the motorcycles and cars"},{"t":7994,"text":"revving, usually classic or tuned-up cars, it's extremely"},{"t":7998,"text":"loud and frustrating, especially after 10:30, 11:00 at night, not limited"},{"t":8002,"text":"to weekends but certainly worse then. Now I know you've already just—"},{"t":8006,"text":"you've already mentioned this, and it's for the speed, it's up to police"},{"t":8010,"text":"to enforce. We don't have a way to enforce that, but I'm wondering if,"},{"t":8015,"text":"if there are ways to mitigate some of this, like it's mentioned"},{"t":8019,"text":"in the report, like speed hump or lowering the speed limit or"},{"t":8023,"text":"some kind of traffic calming. Has that ever been considered for that"},{"t":8027,"text":"sort of bend around Dallas Road? And you should know, Mr."},{"t":8031,"text":"Nichols, that Mr. Kenney is lurking behind you,"},{"t":8034,"text":"likely intending to answer that question."},{"t":8039,"text":"Morning, Mayor and Council."},{"t":8043,"text":"Ross Kenny, Assistant Director of Engineering, Public Works Transportation Section."},{"t":8047,"text":"I, I could speak to speed limits, but I might let Barry and others speak"},{"t":8050,"text":"to the comments around vehicles revving and, um, these other issues."},{"t":8053,"text":"Again, I think that's been covered, um, regarding speed limits."},{"t":8057,"text":"Um, that's something that we could go proactively, um, review again."},{"t":8060,"text":"Um, we're still rolling out, um, speed limit reductions citywide that"},{"t":8064,"text":"council approved, uh, last year regarding, you know, um,"},{"t":8067,"text":"reductions on many collector arterial roads to 40 and 30 kilometers an"},{"t":8071,"text":"hour. That work's expected to finish this year. But regarding specific"},{"t":8075,"text":"public requests, I mean, the best place really is to have them, you know,"},{"t":8078,"text":"they could be forwarded to the engineering department at eng@victoria.ca,"},{"t":8084,"text":"and staff are reviewing these, and we also look at collecting data,"},{"t":8087,"text":"and we can follow up, you know, with Victoria Police if we do see"},{"t":8091,"text":"issues or ongoing challenges. Regarding traffic"},{"t":8096,"text":"calming on, say, Erie, Montreal, Dallas,"},{"t":8099,"text":"generally speaking, we, we do look at traffic calming"},{"t":8103,"text":"solutions on our collector arterial roads, but it's a very different type"},{"t":8107,"text":"of solution that we deploy often. Things like speed humps can be"},{"t":8111,"text":"problematic on these roadways, as you know, we have more larger"},{"t":8115,"text":"vehicles like buses and emergency response vehicles,"},{"t":8118,"text":"and those— when there's higher vehicle"},{"t":8122,"text":"volumes, those— some of those features like speed humps actually create significantly"},{"t":8127,"text":"more noise for those residents, um, than they do on a local street"},{"t":8130,"text":"with low volumes. But definitely, yeah, we take, we take that feedback and prioritize"},{"t":8134,"text":"our programs all the time. At that location next to Fisherman's Wharf Park,"},{"t":8138,"text":"we are looking— I believe we are upgrading the crosswalk that's mid-block"},{"t":8143,"text":"at Erie Street. At which street? On Erie,"},{"t":8147,"text":"I believe it may have already happened. We're adding, but again,"},{"t":8150,"text":"we're adding flashing lights and RFBs at that location and"},{"t":8154,"text":"looking at other locations on Dallas Road. So we're always looking at our road safety"},{"t":8157,"text":"programs, collecting data and public feedback, and looking to"},{"t":8161,"text":"how we can ensure that people are driving at safe speeds and keep pedestrians and"},{"t":8165,"text":"cyclists safe as well. Thank you. Thank you very much for that. I'll just"},{"t":8169,"text":"take that information and forward it to the department. So that would be wonderful."},{"t":8173,"text":"Yeah, okay. And then the other thing I just wanted to follow up on,"},{"t":8177,"text":"it's about the construction industry."},{"t":8180,"text":"So the correction in the report really helped, but there"},{"t":8184,"text":"was still a question here asking that"},{"t":8188,"text":"to please confirm that the proposed bylaw will continue to allow industry"},{"t":8193,"text":"to apply for exemptions when work must reasonably be performed outside the prescribed"},{"t":8197,"text":"hours as permitted under the current bylaw? And I think the answer there is yes,"},{"t":8201,"text":"we've already discussed that. And I just want to— I just want to note that"},{"t":8205,"text":"there's an example here. Once concrete pour begins,"},{"t":8209,"text":"it must be completed and may extend beyond the permitted hours."},{"t":8212,"text":"Similarly, assembling a large crane often requires road closures, and Sundays"},{"t":8217,"text":"may be the only practical time to undertake this work while minimizing traffic"},{"t":8221,"text":"and community disruption. So just sort of for the public's"},{"t":8224,"text":"information, why that's important. Um, I think that this has all"},{"t":8228,"text":"been covered, is— but just for this, this, uh, resident's understanding,"},{"t":8232,"text":"is there anything else you want to add to that? They just wanted clarification"},{"t":8237,"text":"that, that that's included. Mr."},{"t":8240,"text":"Nichols, through the mayor, I don't think there's anything more we need"},{"t":8244,"text":"to add. Okay, perfect. Then, uh, that's it for me."},{"t":8247,"text":"I just wanted those points of Thank"},{"t":8252,"text":"you, and through you, Your Worship, my thanks to staff for developing"},{"t":8256,"text":"this. I know it's an ongoing process. A couple of things that"},{"t":8260,"text":"come up. One, one of the metrics we used to use was duration"},{"t":8265,"text":"of noise, particularly as it applied to moving"},{"t":8270,"text":"complaints. So think of motorcycles that"},{"t":8274,"text":"have taken the baffles out of the rods There was a time that boombox"},{"t":8278,"text":"cars were particularly problematic. Not so much anymore."},{"t":8283,"text":"And it used to be that the threshold we had was consistent"},{"t":8287,"text":"5-minute annoyance would then"},{"t":8291,"text":"trigger some. Is that still the case or do we have a timeframe for"},{"t":8298,"text":"So this bylaw— I would say this report was an"},{"t":8302,"text":"effort to bring here because there's so much we we could talk about. We limited"},{"t":8306,"text":"it to what we were asked to talk about, um, and tried to bring it"},{"t":8309,"text":"to you in a concise way. What we didn't touch on are the things we're"},{"t":8313,"text":"not suggesting changing. And so one of those things is the way"},{"t":8317,"text":"a decibel measurement would happen, when it is to happen."},{"t":8321,"text":"We've asked to revise when a decibel measure happens,"},{"t":8324,"text":"but not how we do it. And we wouldn't continue to do duration"},{"t":8329,"text":"correction factors You'd still use, you know, approved and calibrated"},{"t":8333,"text":"instruments. So hopefully that settles that. Super, thank you."},{"t":8337,"text":"Um, on a different topic, and it was brought up earlier about"},{"t":8342,"text":"leaf blowers, is there a DBA difference between electric leaf"},{"t":8346,"text":"blowers and gas leaf blowers, and, and what is that difference?"},{"t":8350,"text":"Yes, it is. It's about 5. It's through"},{"t":8355,"text":"the mayor. It's It depends, uh, obviously on the technology,"},{"t":8359,"text":"but it actually could be as high as 15 dBA. Okay, thank you."},{"t":8363,"text":"And then the question that we have to follow up with is,"},{"t":8367,"text":"do we use— does the city use leaf blowers, and what are"},{"t":8370,"text":"they? Yes,"},{"t":8374,"text":"Mr. Nichols. Uh, through the"},{"t":8377,"text":"Mayor, um, we could probably get back to you with more specific information"},{"t":8382,"text":"around that. I am aware that the city has been looking at electrifying"},{"t":8386,"text":"as much of it as equipment as possible. Mr. Doyle, I believe you have"},{"t":8389,"text":"something to offer there. Through the Mayor,"},{"t":8393,"text":"there is a large variety of small electric— small equipment"},{"t":8397,"text":"that the city uses, and there's been a sustained effort over a number of years"},{"t":8400,"text":"to convert that to electrical for a number of reasons,"},{"t":8403,"text":"including cost, noise, and emissions."},{"t":8407,"text":"Some of the equipment has been electrified earlier as the products had matured earlier,"},{"t":8411,"text":"while some products are taking a bit longer. The air blowers are sort"},{"t":8415,"text":"of in that in-between stage where, where there's some good options,"},{"t":8418,"text":"and increasingly with time, the hope would be to phase out"},{"t":8422,"text":"the gas ones. Super, thank you. And finally, with respect"},{"t":8427,"text":"to concerts particularly,"},{"t":8432,"text":"have we an intuitive"},{"t":8436,"text":"sense of complaints that come forward,"},{"t":8440,"text":"and it's not just based on the volume of"},{"t":8444,"text":"sound but the type of music. Is there,"},{"t":8449,"text":"in the complaints that have been brought forward, do we find more antagonism"},{"t":8453,"text":"towards certain types of music as opposed to other things?"},{"t":8457,"text":"And the reason I ask, years ago,"},{"t":8461,"text":"knowing that a complaint would be coming up, I went to the"},{"t":8465,"text":"house of the person who was known to be upset,"},{"t":8469,"text":"and it was during Rifflandia, and I listened to a"},{"t":8474,"text":"brilliant version of Serena Ryder singing"},{"t":8479,"text":"\"At Last,\" the Etta James thing, and that fostered a complaint."},{"t":8483,"text":"And it wasn't terribly loud from my perspective, but I'm not a technician."},{"t":8487,"text":"So, it was the fact that there was music when I didn't"},{"t":8490,"text":"want to hear something. Do we have some assessment of people have"},{"t":8495,"text":"just hit the threshold and they're now mad at any type of sound?"},{"t":8500,"text":"I'm happy to start with this one, and other staff may chime in. So through"},{"t":8504,"text":"the engagement, it was not clear that there was a specific type of music that"},{"t":8507,"text":"was bothersome to residents, but then I'm also hearing that when, when there's"},{"t":8511,"text":"heavier bass, that's what we're hearing about more."},{"t":8515,"text":"Mr. Day, I see your hand is up. Would you like to speak? To speak"},{"t":8518,"text":"to this? Oh,"},{"t":8521,"text":"through the mayor, I didn't realize my hand was up, but I'm"},{"t":8524,"text":"happy to offer my perspective, what I've seen in the past. I too have visited"},{"t":8529,"text":"the addresses of some of our more frequent feedback"},{"t":8533,"text":"providers and done specific measurements from their addresses and"},{"t":8537,"text":"had conversations with them on the doorstep and followed up with"},{"t":8542,"text":"them afterwards. And I would I would say that yes, certainly there are"},{"t":8546,"text":"certain genres of music and certain types of music that maybe elicit"},{"t":8550,"text":"more of a response from certain demographics in the community."},{"t":8555,"text":"But I would concur with"},{"t":8559,"text":"Councillor Colman in that most people, it's just the fact that"},{"t":8563,"text":"they can hear anything at all in the evening sometimes"},{"t":8567,"text":"is enough to prompt a phone call or an email."},{"t":8571,"text":"And it's the thought that I'm far enough away"},{"t":8575,"text":"from the venue, I shouldn't even be aware that it's happening."},{"t":8580,"text":"But I have to say that those kinds of complaints have become fewer"},{"t":8585,"text":"and further between. So I'm happy to report that."},{"t":8589,"text":"And Rifflandia in particular, we've had"},{"t":8594,"text":"weather events that can drastically change the type of feedback"},{"t":8598,"text":"that communities have. Wind direction, water reflection,"},{"t":8604,"text":"atmospheric pressure, that all plays a role."},{"t":8607,"text":"And we work really closely with those event organizers in the past to adjust"},{"t":8613,"text":"speaker position and etc. That said,"},{"t":8617,"text":"if we have an event, perhaps it's even a smaller event that has"},{"t":8620,"text":"an impact and we're not there to measure"},{"t":8625,"text":"that sound, or we've collected some feedback that it's been"},{"t":8629,"text":"disproportionately impactful, we share that with the event organizer"},{"t":8634,"text":"and we do let them know that now that we've received some"},{"t":8637,"text":"feedback, we'll be doing— we'll be providing some"},{"t":8641,"text":"closer attention to their event in the future and that if they're not"},{"t":8645,"text":"complying with the sound bylaw thresholds that we've given them"},{"t":8649,"text":"in the exemption process, they could be jeopardizing future permits."},{"t":8653,"text":"And at the very least, what we have done in some"},{"t":8656,"text":"instances is hired third-party sound"},{"t":8661,"text":"monitors to come and measure sound"},{"t":8665,"text":"independently. And then we charge them for that service."},{"t":8669,"text":"So all costs are recovered, but then we get some"},{"t":8674,"text":"data from on the ground. Thank you,"},{"t":8678,"text":"Mr. Day. Thank you, Mr. Day. And just if I can confirm"},{"t":8683,"text":"something, I believe I heard you say, I concur with Councillor"},{"t":8687,"text":"Colman. It's not something I hear very often. Thank you. Thank you,"},{"t":8691,"text":"Councillor Colman. Councillor Thomson, you're up next."},{"t":8697,"text":"Thank you, Mayor. Yeah, and I just wanted to thank staff for the report"},{"t":8701,"text":"and also thank the staff who are out out"},{"t":8705,"text":"there responding to problems. I'm often brought into those discussions"},{"t":8709,"text":"because I'm the downtown liaison, and I know that staff do a lot of"},{"t":8713,"text":"hard work around these problems that come up in the complaints."},{"t":8718,"text":"Actually, most of my questions got covered."},{"t":8722,"text":"I just wanted to follow up and go a little further on an earlier line"},{"t":8725,"text":"of questioning and ask staff, are you"},{"t":8730,"text":"finding that there's a significant number of construction firms"},{"t":8734,"text":"that are actually, you know, receiving noise"},{"t":8737,"text":"enforcement action, whether that's fines or other actions"},{"t":8741,"text":"aimed at compliance, and are just ignoring that and just continuing"},{"t":8745,"text":"and carrying on with the noise and treating it as a cost of business?"},{"t":8750,"text":"Is that a— that's probably bylaw, isn't it? Yes,"},{"t":8754,"text":"for you, Matt."},{"t":8757,"text":"Generally, the construction noise is pretty widespread"},{"t":8762,"text":"across the industry. We see an uptick of"},{"t":8766,"text":"complaints as projects near completion and"},{"t":8770,"text":"there is pressure on timelines and possible financial"},{"t":8774,"text":"consequences for developers and contractors."},{"t":8780,"text":"It may seem as though some Some of the companies"},{"t":8784,"text":"are subject to more complaints if they're larger companies, and that"},{"t":8788,"text":"would be expected, but it's a pretty widespread phenomenon."},{"t":8794,"text":"Councillor Thomson. And then, so if,"},{"t":8798,"text":"if bylaw staff are involved, become involved,"},{"t":8801,"text":"and, you know, approach the company and say, hey,"},{"t":8804,"text":"you've got a— we've got complaints here, you're actually in violation,"},{"t":8810,"text":"and maybe advise them of the violation or issue tickets,"},{"t":8813,"text":"do they just carry on and continue with the violations? Is that"},{"t":8817,"text":"common?"},{"t":8820,"text":"Through you, Mayor, I think that there are"},{"t":8824,"text":"examples of that for sure, and there are examples"},{"t":8828,"text":"of the opposite where people come into line with the bylaw."},{"t":8832,"text":"Okay, any, uh, any sense— oh, sorry, thank you, Mayor."},{"t":8835,"text":"Yes, and through you, Any sense of what percentage?"},{"t":8840,"text":"Is it like most of them just carry on and, and continue to"},{"t":8844,"text":"make the noise after receiving fines, or do the fines bring"},{"t":8848,"text":"them into compliance generally? Mr."},{"t":8850,"text":"Sheffield, um,"},{"t":8854,"text":"I, I really wouldn't want to make the generalization that everybody just carries"},{"t":8858,"text":"on because that's, that's not the case. Um,"},{"t":8861,"text":"as I say, it definitely does happen. I don't have a sense"},{"t":8865,"text":"of percentages. And of course, a lot of the times it"},{"t":8869,"text":"happens, we don't even ever find out about it because residents put up with it"},{"t":8873,"text":"or get used to it or feel as though nothing's happening when it does keep"},{"t":8878,"text":"happening. So it's very hard for me to say and"},{"t":8881,"text":"provide you the answer that you, you, you have asked."},{"t":8886,"text":"Okay, fair enough. Okay, thanks for that. I do think all my other questions"},{"t":8889,"text":"were answered, so again, thanks for the Thank"},{"t":8895,"text":"you, Councillor Gardiner. Thank you. And I'm"},{"t":8899,"text":"going to just start with a quick little comment, which is leaving behind the noise"},{"t":8902,"text":"districts and moving to a noise framework that"},{"t":8906,"text":"encompasses the whole city, I think, is very almost daring and a"},{"t":8910,"text":"very strong move, and we will all hope it works. So thank you for"},{"t":8914,"text":"this report. I have several questions. When you were discussing the"},{"t":8918,"text":"whole thing, did you look at community noise and did you see"},{"t":8922,"text":"a target that the city should be aiming at, as most European cities"},{"t":8925,"text":"have done now, to have a particular level of community noise or"},{"t":8931,"text":"to meet a certain level so we can have a quiet city?"},{"t":8935,"text":"Who would like to try that one?"},{"t":8939,"text":"Through the mayor, through this work, we didn't evaluate"},{"t":8943,"text":"the level set within the bylaw. We haven't reimagined them at"},{"t":8948,"text":"at this point. We are aware of other communities, few and far between,"},{"t":8952,"text":"and internationally we have to look far for this. They have"},{"t":8956,"text":"done community assessments of noise levels,"},{"t":8959,"text":"and that is helpful information,"},{"t":8963,"text":"but to our knowledge, there, there have not been"},{"t":8967,"text":"actionable items that come from that information"},{"t":8971,"text":"for municipalities So while we did look at that, when we"},{"t":8975,"text":"reviewed it with staff, it wasn't clear that doing"},{"t":8978,"text":"that work would lead to what outcomes would"},{"t":8982,"text":"come from that and what work we could do. And in consideration of"},{"t":8986,"text":"the cost that it would take and the endeavor it would take to do,"},{"t":8989,"text":"we didn't put it forward here. Okay, um,"},{"t":8993,"text":"most of my questions relate to Table 4 and the residential"},{"t":8996,"text":"and special event categories, and you've already discussed it a bit, but I have a"},{"t":9000,"text":"few more questions. Um, who determines if noise is"},{"t":9004,"text":"too loud if there aren't any decibels really"},{"t":9007,"text":"identified in public places, uh, and in events?"},{"t":9015,"text":"Shickles? I don't mean special events even,"},{"t":9018,"text":"I just mean a regular event, like, you know,"},{"t":9024,"text":"uh, through the mayor There are restrictions that will be—"},{"t":9028,"text":"there will be decibel restrictions for certain commercial"},{"t":9031,"text":"premises, for example. So if let's say there was an event happening on"},{"t":9037,"text":"or within a commercial premise, there would certainly be rules there,"},{"t":9042,"text":"as well as generally staff have viewed that let's"},{"t":9046,"text":"say if something was happening on a residential premise,"},{"t":9050,"text":"there would be some staff discretion there around the limits."},{"t":9056,"text":"And then obviously through the mayor, what Council Gardiner said, is there are,"},{"t":9059,"text":"there are decibel limits established when we're talking about special events."},{"t":9063,"text":"Okay, are all the summer ones— and I don't attend them, so I"},{"t":9067,"text":"don't know which ones, I believe. Well, please clarify,"},{"t":9071,"text":"uh, the ones at Ship Point. I don't mean a great big huge events,"},{"t":9073,"text":"but the small ones. Does the city actually pay people to create"},{"t":9078,"text":"music or whatever there? And if so, are there any"},{"t":9082,"text":"noise limits? Mr. Nichols, I think part of that"},{"t":9085,"text":"is an arts and culture question. Yeah, through the mayor, when we're talking about Ship"},{"t":9089,"text":"Point, I would actually defer to Mr. Day. Mr. Day, are you"},{"t":9093,"text":"still with us? I am."},{"t":9096,"text":"Through the mayor, yes, we have city"},{"t":9100,"text":"programming at Ship Point."},{"t":9103,"text":"Regulated through the high season. We do"},{"t":9107,"text":"have staff and contract staff present to ensure"},{"t":9112,"text":"levels are within the guidelines."},{"t":9116,"text":"It is a very small venue, and it's"},{"t":9119,"text":"important to distinguish the difference between events that take place"},{"t":9123,"text":"at Ship Point on that AstroTurf area with the Sea Can and then"},{"t":9127,"text":"other events that take place on the weekends in the 814 Wharf Street lot."},{"t":9132,"text":"Which tend to be larger festivals like, uh, Ska Festival,"},{"t":9135,"text":"for example, or Island Festival. Those festivals have special"},{"t":9139,"text":"event exemptions. City programming does"},{"t":9144,"text":"not require it. Yeah, I realize that, and I was going to"},{"t":9148,"text":"deal with those other ones later. We've had comments that, uh, in the"},{"t":9152,"text":"letters we've got in the last little while, for example, in Ship Point, and I"},{"t":9155,"text":"think they were meant the city, the city arranged one, what noise level is there,"},{"t":9159,"text":"because some of the letters that we're getting in say they go up to 90"},{"t":9162,"text":"dBA. So I want to know, and that's not at Ship Point, because of course"},{"t":9165,"text":"you have a, you have a bit of a bowl there, so the noise at"},{"t":9169,"text":"ground level may be less than the noise above, you know, because that's what happens."},{"t":9173,"text":"So what is the noise level on the city paid-for"},{"t":9177,"text":"taxpayer, paid-for entertainment? What, what is the noise level?"},{"t":9181,"text":"And who can answer that question?"},{"t":9187,"text":"So, through the Mayor, maybe that question is for me."},{"t":9192,"text":"Our city programming that happens, for instance, at lunchtime or"},{"t":9196,"text":"shortly after work, those programs"},{"t":9199,"text":"generally are of such a small footprint,"},{"t":9203,"text":"their sound wouldn't violate the existing sound bylaw levels."},{"t":9209,"text":"I should point out that other events do use the Ship Point"},{"t":9213,"text":"Turf Area, Seacan area in the evenings."},{"t":9216,"text":"I'll give an example. The Victoria Beer Society"},{"t":9220,"text":"in Lamppost ran a series of 3 events down there in the evenings from"},{"t":9224,"text":"those locations, and they would have a special event exemption, a noise"},{"t":9228,"text":"bylaw exemption with prescribed thresholds"},{"t":9232,"text":"there. And I've also read some of those complaints from the,"},{"t":9236,"text":"uh, residents, particularly from Customs House. Okay, so what is on"},{"t":9240,"text":"the little ones? Because we had comments about some of the little ones that maybe"},{"t":9243,"text":"draw 10 or 20 people according to the people who are watching it. What is"},{"t":9247,"text":"the noise level permitted for the ones funded by taxpayer money at"},{"t":9251,"text":"Ship Point? And what is the, uh, level of exemption that is"},{"t":9254,"text":"forgiven, or you want to say, for the example you gave? So that's"},{"t":9258,"text":"two different numbers I'd like. Mr. Day, do you have that information?"},{"t":9262,"text":"I'm going to defer to our team in Bylaw"},{"t":9266,"text":"what the exact threshold is at Ship Point on"},{"t":9270,"text":"a day-to-day basis. Certainly it's higher"},{"t":9274,"text":"than what City programming would,"},{"t":9278,"text":"would have, but I can tell you"},{"t":9282,"text":"that the not-for-profits that make use of that"},{"t":9286,"text":"venue in the evenings and other days on the weekends The Seacan"},{"t":9291,"text":"in particular, I'm talking about that smaller stage."},{"t":9295,"text":"Their threshold would be the 90 decibels at point of reception."},{"t":9299,"text":"Sorry, how much? Just a second, please. 90 decibels."},{"t":9302,"text":"Several of our staff here are looking for information. Okay. Which one"},{"t":9306,"text":"would like to share first? Through the Mayor,"},{"t":9309,"text":"so where special event conditions do not"},{"t":9313,"text":"apply, then the city noise district rules apply."},{"t":9317,"text":"And those are, uh, so that's 60 decibels"},{"t":9321,"text":"heard from 3 districts and 65 decibels heard from the"},{"t":9326,"text":"activity district. Therein lies the complexity of the noise districts."},{"t":9329,"text":"It's different, the rule is different depending on where it's heard."},{"t":9333,"text":"What will it be going forward?"},{"t":9337,"text":"The Ship Point ones that are paid for by city taxpayers, what is the noise"},{"t":9340,"text":"level that's permitted? I believe you just said it would be 65"},{"t":9345,"text":"in the activity. Is it going to change from that? That was my question."},{"t":9350,"text":"Mr."},{"t":9355,"text":"Nichols. Mr."},{"t":9358,"text":"Mayor, generally speaking, when we're talking about— because this"},{"t":9362,"text":"is public property and generally"},{"t":9366,"text":"speaking, there is, uh, certain the city"},{"t":9370,"text":"and public property and city works and city things are actually"},{"t":9374,"text":"exempt from a lot of the rules in the noise bylaw. With that said,"},{"t":9378,"text":"generally speaking, when the uses don't apply,"},{"t":9382,"text":"it would be— it would be relying on what was already previously"},{"t":9385,"text":"established. So we're talking around 60 to 65 dB."},{"t":9389,"text":"Thank you. Now for evenings and exemptions for Ship"},{"t":9393,"text":"Point, say, and for market Square when we get the"},{"t":9397,"text":"whistle boy. It is. What are the exemptions? What's the,"},{"t":9400,"text":"what's the height? Nichols,"},{"t":9404,"text":"through the mayor, through my knowledge, typically those would"},{"t":9408,"text":"fall under the 90-decibel threshold established through a special event."},{"t":9415,"text":"Can we have, um, you— I don't know what emails you folks"},{"t":9419,"text":"get. A lot of them where people are showing us the measures that they've been"},{"t":9422,"text":"taking. And they're not on site, they're off"},{"t":9425,"text":"site and they go up to 112, 108. Now that's not for the"},{"t":9429,"text":"overall, that would be the peak, the L max would be about 104 and"},{"t":9433,"text":"those kind of levels. So is that based on a 90 down below"},{"t":9437,"text":"a few hundred meters away that they're getting 110?"},{"t":9443,"text":"Mr. Nichols, would you know that?"},{"t":9447,"text":"Through the mayor, I don't have this data"},{"t":9450,"text":"at my fingertips right now, so I can't really comment"},{"t":9455,"text":"on where the 100 is coming from. I'm sorry, I apologize."},{"t":9459,"text":"Yeah, okay. Has anyone considered separating"},{"t":9463,"text":"events into categories, especially events? I'm thinking of a community event."},{"t":9467,"text":"We're talking Symphony Splash, David Foster,"},{"t":9471,"text":"and if we ever had a January 1st. In other words, special events that are"},{"t":9474,"text":"community versus ticketed events where someone's making a profit or"},{"t":9478,"text":"trying to make a profit, whereas the neighbors may not get"},{"t":9482,"text":"sleep. So, so anyone thought of differentiating those different types of events"},{"t":9487,"text":"that are giving exemptions for noise? Mr."},{"t":9490,"text":"Nichols. Through the Mayor,"},{"t":9494,"text":"our feedback has been we have a pretty robust"},{"t":9498,"text":"special event process already in place. In terms"},{"t":9502,"text":"of your comments there, I can't say if that's something that's being contemplated by our"},{"t":9506,"text":"arts and culture staff. I would defer to them on that. Yes, I'd appreciate that"},{"t":9510,"text":"because in some of the research and just quickly doing on the internet with other"},{"t":9513,"text":"cities, because I looked at 3 or 4 other cities because we are familiar with"},{"t":9517,"text":"the Byward Market, but I checked other cities. They have,"},{"t":9520,"text":"for example, they'll name the 6 big community events that are different"},{"t":9524,"text":"than the others. Okay."},{"t":9529,"text":"You mentioned that one, hang on."},{"t":9534,"text":"Okay, we got 90 there."},{"t":9537,"text":"So for outside events, which I mentioned already, Ship Point and Market Square,"},{"t":9542,"text":"going forward, where are you going to measure it from?"},{"t":9546,"text":"Because as I said, the actual noise when you have a"},{"t":9550,"text":"canyon effect, which is what you got in Market Square, square, and then of course"},{"t":9554,"text":"you get the bowl effect down in Ship Point. So at ground"},{"t":9558,"text":"level may not be the peak noise at all."},{"t":9561,"text":"Mr."},{"t":9565,"text":"Nichols."},{"t":9573,"text":"Through the mayor, um, a complaint through the noise"},{"t":9576,"text":"bylaw is The point of reception is what we're talking about"},{"t":9580,"text":"here, and the current noise bylaw defines the point of reception from"},{"t":9584,"text":"the complainant's location. Now, when we're talking about"},{"t":9588,"text":"events, generally speaking, the readings"},{"t":9592,"text":"are not done from— when they're talking about monitoring"},{"t":9596,"text":"the sound levels of a special event, for example, or, you know,"},{"t":9599,"text":"large-scale event, those are done typically on"},{"t":9603,"text":"site at the location. Of the event."},{"t":9609,"text":"Okay, I'm quite worried about this, and I don't know how we can ask to"},{"t":9612,"text":"look into it. I'm just going to give you an example. It's not of today,"},{"t":9615,"text":"it's an old example. I was at Ogden Point, and there was"},{"t":9619,"text":"terrific noise coming out. People could hear it over James Bay."},{"t":9622,"text":"You couldn't hear it in ground. Could not hear it in the ground level"},{"t":9626,"text":"because it was a different kind of activity down there, plus the noise came"},{"t":9630,"text":"from above. So noise travels. When you're—"},{"t":9633,"text":"when they did the Helijet noise studies years ago, the noise"},{"t":9637,"text":"was not loudest across the street. There was a lift because of the land,"},{"t":9640,"text":"because of the berm there, and it went over and Lady Smith got the noise."},{"t":9644,"text":"So are we going to be looking at that at all for the special places,"},{"t":9646,"text":"especially Ship Point and Market Square? Because that's"},{"t":9651,"text":"where most of our complaints come from. Mr. Nichols, through the mayor, I'm going"},{"t":9654,"text":"to defer to bylaw enforcement because they take on they"},{"t":9658,"text":"do the hands-on work around measuring these decibel limits. And I'll"},{"t":9662,"text":"pass it over to— Mr. Sheffield?"},{"t":9665,"text":"Apologies, I am going to intercede here. I was just discussing through chat"},{"t":9669,"text":"with Mr. Sheffield that I would quickly offer some comments prior to him speaking"},{"t":9673,"text":"as well. So through the mayor,"},{"t":9677,"text":"point of reception is one of the key things we're looking at through this bylaw"},{"t":9681,"text":"review. It's been the most problematic piece of it from the point of enforcement."},{"t":9686,"text":"We have purposely been not clear about precisely"},{"t":9691,"text":"where that point would be moved to because we need"},{"t":9695,"text":"to do that work once we have this conceptual approval from Council on the framework"},{"t":9699,"text":"we're suggesting. What we do hope to do is to bring— we"},{"t":9704,"text":"find that the point of reception is dramatically far from the point of emission,"},{"t":9708,"text":"and it's often inside residences, and that for many reasons is"},{"t":9712,"text":"not good, right? And so we are— and punitive"},{"t":9715,"text":"to people who do want to make a complaint but are not welcoming bylaw officers"},{"t":9719,"text":"in their home at all hours of the night. So our goal is to"},{"t":9723,"text":"bring that point of reception closer. Now, I won't say that we would have the"},{"t":9727,"text":"same consistent point of reception for all different types of noise. I think we need"},{"t":9731,"text":"to evaluate what the appropriate point of reception would be based on the"},{"t":9735,"text":"source of noise. We're just not there yet. We have a lot of ideas"},{"t":9739,"text":"about what other jurisdictions are doing. Now with that said, I would love"},{"t":9743,"text":"to hand it over to Mr. Sheffield to follow up on that. Mr. Sheffield."},{"t":9747,"text":"Through you, Mayor. Yeah, Monica covered most of that."},{"t":9751,"text":"It is a really tricky point for us in terms of enforcement"},{"t":9755,"text":"because a point of reception is currently defined as being on real property."},{"t":9760,"text":"So the noise bylaw cannot be violated on a street."},{"t":9764,"text":"So that, that obviously does impact some of the"},{"t":9768,"text":"things that you're talking about. And as Monica said,"},{"t":9771,"text":"standards have changed. People are less willing to allow"},{"t":9776,"text":"us into their property. And if a person tells us that"},{"t":9779,"text":"they've been woken from their sleep 4 times this week,"},{"t":9783,"text":"the point of reception is in their bedroom, and that's it's not a"},{"t":9787,"text":"comfortable thing for many people to let us into, and so that often is a"},{"t":9790,"text":"barrier to enforcement. And so the"},{"t":9793,"text":"fact that this is going to be looked at in the new bylaw is"},{"t":9798,"text":"music to our ears, pardon the pun."},{"t":9801,"text":"Yeah, thank you. I think the objective is to not get complaints."},{"t":9806,"text":"So when we've had the liquor licensing going on before and we explored what"},{"t":9810,"text":"was going on downtown at Strathcona, or not Strathcona, strata— well, the different"},{"t":9814,"text":"pubs in that. That's when we discovered that— I mean, just doesn't make sense"},{"t":9817,"text":"that someone has to come out in pajamas to try and get some inaction."},{"t":9820,"text":"So the idea is we don't want any complaints. We want it resolved through"},{"t":9825,"text":"our regulations. So we now have a very extended,"},{"t":9829,"text":"expanded staff in bylaw."},{"t":9832,"text":"So will some bylaw— therefore, and we understand there's going to"},{"t":9836,"text":"be extended hours now for bylaw So will that bylaw go"},{"t":9841,"text":"forward into the evenings to at least 10:00 PM since 10:00 PM is"},{"t":9844,"text":"a lot of your business cutoff times?"},{"t":9848,"text":"Mr. Sheffield, are you able to answer that question or would we defer to"},{"t":9852,"text":"Director Jones— Assistant Director Jones or"},{"t":9856,"text":"Mr. Anticci or— Through"},{"t":9869,"text":"you, Mayor, are you able to repeat the question? Will your"},{"t":9873,"text":"bylaw staff have the capacity to extend through the evening until"},{"t":9877,"text":"the time when most of these complaints begin to accrue?"},{"t":9881,"text":"Through the Mayor, the only section that"},{"t":9885,"text":"we currently have that works into the evenings is our feet on the street."},{"t":9890,"text":"Program. We have had some discussions"},{"t":9893,"text":"with Manager Lisa Forcier, who runs that team,"},{"t":9897,"text":"about supporting our investigative team, as they"},{"t":9900,"text":"currently work regular day shift hours."},{"t":9903,"text":"So that is in discussion. Just of note,"},{"t":9907,"text":"through you, Mayor, that the Feet on the Street"},{"t":9911,"text":"team during the wintertime works until 8 o'clock not"},{"t":9915,"text":"10 o'clock. And so that is from October through"},{"t":9920,"text":"until April."},{"t":9923,"text":"Thank you. Okay, just a couple more questions."},{"t":9926,"text":"Again, on special events, and again, looking what you're"},{"t":9930,"text":"looking at down the road. So if we have a special event,"},{"t":9935,"text":"90 dBA, we know that WorkSafeBC, you got"},{"t":9939,"text":"to start wearing earphones over 85 5 dBA, yet for some reason"},{"t":9943,"text":"the city thinks it's okay, our policies, for residents who"},{"t":9947,"text":"are trying to sleep to have to face 90 dBA. Now,"},{"t":9950,"text":"um, is there any— what is the time—"},{"t":9953,"text":"is there a timeline for special events? I don't mean the big community ones,"},{"t":9957,"text":"the half dozen we have during the year. Is there any timeline"},{"t":9961,"text":"with the special events? Is that going to be a 10 PM close-off?"},{"t":9965,"text":"Mr. Nichols. Through the Mayor,"},{"t":9968,"text":"generally we have a sound policy"},{"t":9972,"text":"around special events and it does generally restrict events"},{"t":9977,"text":"to conclude at 10 PM. Generally, or do we have more specifics?"},{"t":9982,"text":"Through the Mayor, I think it makes a few exceptions."},{"t":9986,"text":"I would have to pull up the policy in front of me, but more"},{"t":9990,"text":"often than not, when you see an event happening running past 10 PM, it has"},{"t":9993,"text":"to apply for an exemption permit."},{"t":9997,"text":"Can we have, before we go forward, I don't mean today,"},{"t":10000,"text":"data on all of that, please? We really do need it."},{"t":10004,"text":"And again, I'm separating out your David Foster, your Symphony"},{"t":10007,"text":"Splash, your, you know, the real community events. And I'd really like"},{"t":10011,"text":"to see the— how many of those exemptions are given and whether or not they're"},{"t":10015,"text":"ticketed events or open events. Mr. Nichols. Through the Mayor,"},{"t":10019,"text":"certainly could rely on our colleagues to provide you with more"},{"t":10023,"text":"information. Thank you. Okay, my— I hope my last question."},{"t":10027,"text":"You talked about this today is to get the conceptual,"},{"t":10030,"text":"so are we going to have more coming back to us before we go into"},{"t":10034,"text":"bylaw or anything? I would hope so, because I realize"},{"t":10038,"text":"your discussion of gaps is very important. Through the"},{"t":10042,"text":"Mayor, you mentioned the word daring earlier. Yes, we are proposing some"},{"t":10045,"text":"daring changes with what we're bringing forward to you, and because"},{"t":10049,"text":"of that, we thought it was prudent to come forward first with the concept,"},{"t":10053,"text":"then confirm with council that's where we should be headed,"},{"t":10056,"text":"and after that, we would have enough to begin bylaw drafting."},{"t":10061,"text":"There would certainly be more coming back to you. You would"},{"t":10065,"text":"be seeing a bit more content fleshed out, I think, through that process."},{"t":10068,"text":"Okay, before we get to bylaw? Before any form of adoption, absolutely."},{"t":10072,"text":"Well, I mean, adoption is usually too late when it comes to"},{"t":10076,"text":"us. So are we going to see you once more once you get more of"},{"t":10078,"text":"the gaps before bylaw? I don't mean let's look at it now and therefore"},{"t":10082,"text":"have to argue against something. So I'm looking for more input rather than— yep."},{"t":10086,"text":"Mr. King, can you remind us a little bit of the process of what happens"},{"t":10089,"text":"next? Thank you, Mayor. Through you,"},{"t":10093,"text":"generally speaking, the intent of what"},{"t":10096,"text":"staff are presenting today is just to to get council's approval of the"},{"t":10100,"text":"recommended approach to re— to developing"},{"t":10104,"text":"and drafting and amending our current regulations. In the event that"},{"t":10107,"text":"council endorses those recommendations, we would move to"},{"t":10111,"text":"develop the bylaw and then introduce it to council for initial consideration"},{"t":10115,"text":"and readings. If there's anything that council wishes specifically"},{"t":10119,"text":"that we report back on prior to a bylaw coming back, we would respectfully request"},{"t":10124,"text":"for that direction so that we know, and then we will certainly take any direction"},{"t":10127,"text":"of that sort and report back to council before the"},{"t":10131,"text":"bylaw is complete— draft is completed and introduced for initial"},{"t":10136,"text":"consideration by council. So if I'm not correct, Mr. Kingsley, then you"},{"t":10140,"text":"would return to us based on today's conversation with preliminary readings, at which"},{"t":10144,"text":"point, should we find something that we did not believe was supportable, we could"},{"t":10148,"text":"directly to adjust at at that point, uh, under our typical process."},{"t":10152,"text":"Yes, Mayor, confirming that would be the intention, unless, uh, I just wanted"},{"t":10156,"text":"to clarify that part of the intention of this, of the discussion today, is to"},{"t":10160,"text":"see if council has any specific direction for us other than"},{"t":10164,"text":"proceeding in that manner. If, if there is anything else council wishes us to"},{"t":10168,"text":"take another look at, or any other activity council wishes us"},{"t":10172,"text":"to report back on before introducing the bylaw. Thank you. So I"},{"t":10176,"text":"would need to do that today to find some motions then, would I? To try"},{"t":10179,"text":"and get some report back, especially on special events and then missing data"},{"t":10183,"text":"and all of that. So, Gardiner, if you wish to have something specified"},{"t":10187,"text":"that is not in the generalities of what you heard, you would need to provide"},{"t":10191,"text":"some direction either today or when it returns for its first reading. Okay, I'd like"},{"t":10194,"text":"direction today then. Have you concluded your"},{"t":10198,"text":"questions? Uh,"},{"t":10202,"text":"Yes, that's the questions, but I don't know. Yeah. Thank you. Anyone else with"},{"t":10205,"text":"questions? Councillor Thompson, your hand is still up. Do you have further"},{"t":10210,"text":"questions or is that a residual hand? Residual,"},{"t":10213,"text":"and I think I've lowered it now. It's showing up that way at my end."},{"t":10216,"text":"Sorry. That's oddly— it's still up on my end, but there"},{"t":10220,"text":"you go. Such is life. All right. There are no more questions. And so"},{"t":10224,"text":"the question before us is is the recommendation that is in front of us,"},{"t":10227,"text":"which is, as has been described, the approval for work to"},{"t":10232,"text":"continue towards bylaws, including the substance in Table 4"},{"t":10236,"text":"and Table 5. Does anyone wish to move that at this time? Councillor Kerner,"},{"t":10240,"text":"do you wish to move that? Does someone wish to second that? Councillor Dell."},{"t":10244,"text":"So in the context of this conversation, if in fact you want to amend this"},{"t":10247,"text":"with specific directions, you may. There is also an opportunity,"},{"t":10251,"text":"if if you can, in fact, provide an alliance to this particular"},{"t":10255,"text":"recommendation with regard to the noise bylaw, you could indicate something that"},{"t":10258,"text":"is complementary to this in a motion arising as long as it is, in fact,"},{"t":10262,"text":"referencing the noise bylaw as a component. But let's start"},{"t":10266,"text":"first with the mover and seconder. I'm aware that we have 7 minutes before we"},{"t":10270,"text":"will usually take our lunch break. I suspect that we will not be able to"},{"t":10273,"text":"resolve this in that time from the sounds of the early commentary. Start with the"},{"t":10278,"text":"mover and seconder and see how far we get. Thanks, Mayor. I will indicate that"},{"t":10282,"text":"I do have a motion arising that is, that is directly related to this,"},{"t":10285,"text":"but we can get to that later. I have no amendments to make"},{"t":10288,"text":"to this. I had come into today intending to make amendments around the"},{"t":10293,"text":"construction noise, but that turns out to have been a typo. And,"},{"t":10296,"text":"and I think the folks who are concerned about it in the community, it's easy"},{"t":10300,"text":"to explain there was just a mix-up, and that not only will construction"},{"t":10303,"text":"be allowed 7 to 7, but actually it's a little bit more liberalized on Saturday,"},{"t":10307,"text":"allowing it to come to 9 AM. I think that the general direction"},{"t":10311,"text":"that's proposed by staff makes sense in moving away from a fairly clunky and"},{"t":10315,"text":"complicated system to something that is easier to comprehend and more"},{"t":10319,"text":"streamlined. I also really appreciate the comments not only from staff"},{"t":10323,"text":"before us, but staff online from Arts and Culture, who I"},{"t":10327,"text":"think do an incredible job of balancing two"},{"t":10331,"text":"very difficult things. On the one hand, we want this to be a lively,"},{"t":10334,"text":"activated city where there's events downtown and there's Canada Day"},{"t":10338,"text":"and there's Ship Point and there's Symphony Splash and there's many other smaller events that"},{"t":10341,"text":"aren't the marquee events. And we want people to enjoy themselves. We want people to"},{"t":10346,"text":"come downtown. And we also need to be mindful of the fact that people live"},{"t":10348,"text":"downtown and excessive noise can adversely affect your lives."},{"t":10352,"text":"We had a conversation today about vehicle noise. I don't think"},{"t":10357,"text":"we've landed anywhere really that satisfactory. We all— we're also somewhat limited"},{"t":10361,"text":"in, in our, in our levers in being able to, to address that one,"},{"t":10364,"text":"which is probably the number one noise complaint that is received."},{"t":10368,"text":"I'm hoping to hear back from the chief on this next time she comes to"},{"t":10372,"text":"council, and I'll follow up with UBCM and just see what the advocacy"},{"t":10376,"text":"is there and see if there's anything else that we can do to start to"},{"t":10378,"text":"have a conversation about noise cameras enforcement, at least have a conversation"},{"t":10382,"text":"about it and see if, if that yields fruit, because those loud motorcycles"},{"t":10386,"text":"and vehicles without mufflers are a real problem. So I appreciate"},{"t":10390,"text":"the balance and thoughtfulness that it was brought to this proposed direction towards"},{"t":10394,"text":"bylaws. I support it moving forward, and at this time I don't have any amendments."},{"t":10397,"text":"Thanks, Mayor. Thank you. Councillor Dell as the seconder. I think that—"},{"t":10401,"text":"anyone else on this? Councillor Hammond, Councillor Gardner."},{"t":10407,"text":"Thanks, Mayor. I guess I was wrong. And just a quick one on Table 4,"},{"t":10411,"text":"under construction. Why are we exempting the city work?"},{"t":10415,"text":"And if you've said that already, my apologies. Mr. Nichols."},{"t":10419,"text":"Uh, through the Mayor, uh, those exemptions already exist,"},{"t":10424,"text":"um, and we did not receive previous direction"},{"t":10428,"text":"from our very previous direction from Council to review"},{"t":10434,"text":"city work exemptions."},{"t":10437,"text":"And I think— do you have anything else to say?"},{"t":10441,"text":"I would only add that there would be operational implications that we'd have to"},{"t":10444,"text":"look at before we could look at exemptions or removing an"},{"t":10448,"text":"exemption, I think. Knowing that we want to set a good example, can you give"},{"t":10452,"text":"me— I'd like to think that we don't float these things. Can you give me"},{"t":10455,"text":"examples where maybe we, we would be— I don't know, flouting because"},{"t":10459,"text":"we're allowed to do it— examples where we would be different that we would not"},{"t":10464,"text":"allow under private construction? I think this might be a Mr. Doyle question."},{"t":10468,"text":"Mr. Doyle, please go ahead. Uh, thank you. Through the mayor,"},{"t":10472,"text":"uh, night construction work is generally limited to emergency"},{"t":10476,"text":"work, critical infrastructure repairs,"},{"t":10478,"text":"specialized activities that require continuous operations,"},{"t":10482,"text":"and situations where overnight work is necessary to reduce traffic disruption"},{"t":10485,"text":"or improve through Public Safety. For city projects,"},{"t":10489,"text":"contractors, or our own teams requesting night work,"},{"t":10492,"text":"or where a contract specifies that work must be completed out of— outside of normal"},{"t":10496,"text":"hours, we require the contractor or our internal teams to demonstrate the"},{"t":10501,"text":"need for the proposed schedule. We review the plans and ensure"},{"t":10504,"text":"reasonable measures are in place to minimize noise impacts, and, and we require"},{"t":10508,"text":"the same kind of advanced notification to nearby residents at businesses,"},{"t":10512,"text":"uh, that, that would be done by private, uh, outside parties."},{"t":10517,"text":"Now that's a good answer. Thank you very much, I appreciate that."},{"t":10521,"text":"Um, also under power equipment, um, no decibel"},{"t":10525,"text":"limits for power equipment. Why are we not including decibel limits on power equipment?"},{"t":10528,"text":"And my apologies if I missed this."},{"t":10533,"text":"Yeah, in some cases the current bylaw does have decibel limits, and in"},{"t":10537,"text":"our review in an effort to reduce where decibel limits are taken."},{"t":10541,"text":"This is one where we propose removing decibel limits because it"},{"t":10547,"text":"would hard to be practically— any sort of reduction in sound"},{"t":10551,"text":"levels would be hard to practically implement. The equipment"},{"t":10554,"text":"operates at the level that it does, particularly outdoors."},{"t":10557,"text":"The only things that an operator could really do would be"},{"t":10562,"text":"to erect some sort of sound barrier, but It doesn't seem"},{"t":10565,"text":"very practical to ask that for,"},{"t":10568,"text":"you know, some lawn mowing or something of the sort. Okay."},{"t":10571,"text":"Thanks very much."},{"t":10577,"text":"Okay. On— oh,"},{"t":10580,"text":"Table 4, commercial vehicles. I would like to make an amendment."},{"t":10585,"text":"Go ahead. And basically, I guess it's just to keep it"},{"t":10589,"text":"the way it is. So as opposed to changing"},{"t":10593,"text":"it from 6:30 to 6:00 throughout the entire city,"},{"t":10597,"text":"I guess I'm just in favor of removing that and keeping it the way that"},{"t":10600,"text":"it is. Can you specify, please, what it is now?"},{"t":10604,"text":"It would be more appropriate as an amendment for you to frame the actual facts"},{"t":10608,"text":"of what you're proposing. Sure. Oh, sorry, Mayor. Yeah, it's just"},{"t":10612,"text":"under Table 4. 'cause that's"},{"t":10616,"text":"what we're voting on, right? Yes, the first part. Yep."},{"t":10620,"text":"Yeah, so under— oh, where is it? Sorry, I had a commercial—"},{"t":10624,"text":"yeah, there it is. Under commercial vehicles, um,"},{"t":10629,"text":"basically I guess for the expand the"},{"t":10633,"text":"waste collection service hours on weekdays, um,"},{"t":10637,"text":"I would not want that expanded. I'm interested in keeping it,"},{"t":10641,"text":"or, or the amendment would be 6 30 throughout"},{"t":10644,"text":"the city and 6 o'clock in the—"},{"t":10650,"text":"what's that zone again that we saw?"},{"t":10653,"text":"It's not going to exist in a while. I know, I know. Sorry. But basically"},{"t":10657,"text":"what we've got now. So question for staff."},{"t":10662,"text":"What I understand Councillor Hammond is essentially doing is"},{"t":10665,"text":"wanting to remove a particular recommendation that's in Table What"},{"t":10670,"text":"information do you need to specify that removal? You don't, unfortunately,"},{"t":10673,"text":"have numbers or letters in either of this— any of the section boxes"},{"t":10677,"text":"that's in the table, and so it's difficult to identify"},{"t":10681,"text":"exactly which section that he would like to neutralize."},{"t":10684,"text":"I'm wondering, given the fact that it's noon, whether it would"},{"t":10688,"text":"be possible for us to hold on this matter right now and"},{"t":10692,"text":"have staff actually reframe the— tables with"},{"t":10696,"text":"some type of a table numbering system? Because I expect"},{"t":10700,"text":"that there will be several amendments regarding a number of different sections here,"},{"t":10704,"text":"and it might be easier for us to keep track of them if there was"},{"t":10707,"text":"a way for us to refer to the different sections in the actual tables themselves."},{"t":10711,"text":"Is that possible?"},{"t":10716,"text":"Through you, Mayor, we— excuse me— we certainly could Remove"},{"t":10722,"text":"the bullets and change them into numbers. We'll try and do that over the lunch"},{"t":10724,"text":"hour if that would assist council's deliberations. I just have a general"},{"t":10728,"text":"comment that if there is a desire for something to be status quo,"},{"t":10734,"text":"simply directing us to remove that— Yes, that's correct. —from the"},{"t":10737,"text":"table would do that. It would have that effect because we would interpret that as"},{"t":10742,"text":"drafting the new changes to keep whatever that provision"},{"t":10746,"text":"was we wanted to change— Mr. Kingsley, that's what exactly I'm trying to get you"},{"t":10749,"text":"to do, because without a specific specificity in the numbering system,"},{"t":10753,"text":"we can't describe what it is that we wish to remove."},{"t":10757,"text":"So if you can identify a manner to simply label"},{"t":10762,"text":"each of these sections, when we return, I suspect that there will be a number"},{"t":10766,"text":"of amendments to do just that. But it would be helpful to be able to"},{"t":10770,"text":"identify which one without having to go through a lengthy explanation explanation and narrative as"},{"t":10773,"text":"opposed to simply say remove item X. So if you"},{"t":10777,"text":"can do that over the lunch hour, we'll come back and we'll start again with"},{"t":10781,"text":"Councillor Hammond and then Councillor Gardiner also has, I think, some suggestions"},{"t":10784,"text":"to make. I would point out just for the information of council that"},{"t":10788,"text":"the majority of speakers so far have used over 80% of their time in"},{"t":10792,"text":"narrative as opposed to question leading to the questions. So I"},{"t":10796,"text":"would urge us to be perhaps a little bit more succinct when we return."},{"t":10800,"text":"Let us now take a lunch break, and we will return at 1:05."},{"t":14770,"text":"Welcome back, everyone. Here we are back in our seats for the continuation of"},{"t":14774,"text":"our September 3rd Committee of the Whole meeting of Victoria City Council."},{"t":14778,"text":"Before we left, we were in the midst of a discussion around the staff"},{"t":14782,"text":"report at item I.1, the noise bylaw review and recommendations"},{"t":14786,"text":"from staff. Staff recommendations have been moved and seconded."},{"t":14790,"text":"We've moved through the mover and the seconder and are now up to Councillor Hammond"},{"t":14794,"text":"who wishes to make an amendment. And in a way to facilitate the ease of"},{"t":14798,"text":"following along with what I expect are a number of amendments, I've asked staff to,"},{"t":14803,"text":"I guess, reformat is probably the best word, the tables that are part"},{"t":14807,"text":"of the recommendations so that we can— thank you so much— refer to the"},{"t":14811,"text":"specific areas that we may wish to amend. And so,"},{"t":14814,"text":"Councillor Hammond, since you have the floor with an amendment,"},{"t":14817,"text":"can you direct us please to the section that you"},{"t":14821,"text":"would like to delete, which I believe is the easiest way to deal with"},{"t":14825,"text":"your intention? Yes, Mayor. Number 6, commercial vehicle."},{"t":14829,"text":"Number 6. Let's pull that one up."},{"t":14832,"text":"And you would like to delete just D?"},{"t":14837,"text":"Yes, unless that's going to cause a problem that I'm forgetting if there's"},{"t":14841,"text":"another amendment there. Sorry, another change from the 9 to 7."},{"t":14845,"text":"Well, let's ask staff who would know the best for this. If we were"},{"t":14849,"text":"to delete 6D, would that"},{"t":14852,"text":"have any consequence for the rest of number 6 that would need to also be"},{"t":14856,"text":"included in an amendment? Always good to ask that."},{"t":14862,"text":"Could A, B, and C continue?"},{"t":14865,"text":"Looks kind of like they could to me. You're just looking at definitions and"},{"t":14871,"text":"dealing with service hours on weekdays."},{"t":14875,"text":"Mr. Nichols. Through the mayor, our understanding is deleting D"},{"t":14879,"text":"would essentially mean that it would actually be instead of 6:00"},{"t":14883,"text":"AM to 7 PM on weekdays, it would be 6:30 AM to 7"},{"t":14887,"text":"PM on weekdays. I believe that is the intention. Yes, that is the intention,"},{"t":14890,"text":"correct. But the question is, if D is adopted by council,"},{"t":14894,"text":"does it have any impact on A, B, and C in the same section?"},{"t":14898,"text":"Excuse me. Through the mayor, it would only have an effect on"},{"t":14903,"text":"B. On B. So I think that's what I was wondering. So, Councillor Hammond,"},{"t":14906,"text":"I wonder if you wouldn't mind expanding your, um,"},{"t":14908,"text":"amendment to indicate that you wish to delete 6B and"},{"t":14915,"text":"6D. Because D really does have an impact on— Thank you, Mayor. Yes. Okay,"},{"t":14918,"text":"so the amendment on the floor then, Councilor Hammond is pro— is proposing"},{"t":14922,"text":"that council delete the references now in 6B"},{"t":14926,"text":"and 6D."},{"t":14931,"text":"And once we do that, I think that's pretty clear. Is there"},{"t":14934,"text":"a a seconder for that amendment?"},{"t":14940,"text":"Oh, okay, that's a surprise. I'll second it for discussion."},{"t":14944,"text":"Sure, absolutely. Councillor Hammond,"},{"t":14947,"text":"understanding that you have 2 minutes and 10 seconds, anything you'd like"},{"t":14950,"text":"to say to support your amendment? Yeah, I think at 6"},{"t":14954,"text":"o'clock in the morning there's a big difference between 6 and 6:30. We hear from"},{"t":14957,"text":"residents wanting to get their"},{"t":14962,"text":"sleep, don't want to be disturbed from their sleep. That's very important. And when we"},{"t":14965,"text":"looked at the map, that's a huge change from the activity district"},{"t":14969,"text":"to the whole city. And I think, yeah, I just think it should stay"},{"t":14973,"text":"the same. So 6:30. Okay. And I seconded"},{"t":14977,"text":"that just to allow for a discussion. So I don't have anything to add."},{"t":14979,"text":"Anyone else have anything to add on the amendment only? Councillor Carradonna."},{"t":14983,"text":"Thanks, Mayor. This is one where I don't know. For me, it's a question mark."},{"t":14987,"text":"I would need more information. Have we had conversation"},{"t":14990,"text":"with, I mean, we presumably, we contract mainly with, is it GFL or Waste"},{"t":14994,"text":"Management, one of them? And also the CRD"},{"t":14998,"text":"is contracting for recycling services."},{"t":15002,"text":"So this also affects CRD potentially. So I guess,"},{"t":15006,"text":"have we heard anything from the third-party operators about when they"},{"t":15010,"text":"would like to operate and how it would affect their operational models? Mr."},{"t":15014,"text":"Nichols. Through the Mayor, yes, we did public engagement"},{"t":15018,"text":"and that included with some of the third-party large-scale"},{"t":15022,"text":"operators and what we heard from them was that they would like to operate"},{"t":15026,"text":"earlier due to things like traffic"},{"t":15030,"text":"and just being able to deal with waste collection in"},{"t":15034,"text":"a more timely manner. But at the same time, we did hear"},{"t":15037,"text":"a lot from residents that they are are, you know, they do find"},{"t":15042,"text":"waste collection services to be quite noisy, especially very early in the morning."},{"t":15045,"text":"So the 6:00 a.m. was a compromise or a balanced approach"},{"t":15049,"text":"that staff took. And through the mayor, and thank you for that, did they want"},{"t":15052,"text":"even earlier? Were they asking for 5:00 or 5:30 and you landed on 6:00,"},{"t":15056,"text":"or did they ask for 6:00?"},{"t":15066,"text":"Through the mayor, they did ask for earlier,"},{"t":15069,"text":"and staff did float the idea of"},{"t":15073,"text":"6 to them, and they seemed amenable. Okay, and just if"},{"t":15077,"text":"I could drill down a bit more, like, let's say it's 6 AM on a"},{"t":15080,"text":"Tuesday. Are, are there staff arriving and getting onto trucks"},{"t":15084,"text":"at 6 AM, and then after whatever,"},{"t":15087,"text":"loading up their trucks, driving out, they're actually getting to addresses around 6:30,"},{"t":15092,"text":"or are they actually getting— would they be at— well, let's say currently,"},{"t":15096,"text":"are they actually getting to houses around 7 or are they getting to homes at"},{"t":15099,"text":"around 6:30? I'm assuming their shifts start at 6:30,"},{"t":15103,"text":"but I don't know, so I'm saying I don't know."},{"t":15109,"text":"Through the mayor, um, that starts earlier. I think they"},{"t":15112,"text":"do the soonest pickup possible, so getting into the vehicle,"},{"t":15116,"text":"arriving at the site happens before, but the first"},{"t":15120,"text":"pickup would happen at the first permitted hour. Now that's all"},{"t":15123,"text":"to say that it's all within compliance with the regulations."},{"t":15127,"text":"Oftentimes this is all occurring way— it's happening before the"},{"t":15131,"text":"current hour is set in the bylaw. And is there any other— okay,"},{"t":15134,"text":"is there any other labor dimensions here? Like, is this a unionized environment? Is there"},{"t":15138,"text":"collective bargaining agreements? Are they trying to get their"},{"t":15142,"text":"workers off work half an hour earlier? I This is"},{"t":15146,"text":"why I don't like making these things up on the fly, because I just don't"},{"t":15148,"text":"know. Through the business engagement, there are lots of reasons that"},{"t":15152,"text":"they cited, and it's in their report, for why they prefer to work"},{"t":15156,"text":"earlier hours. Public safety was one of the ones they noted—"},{"t":15160,"text":"just less vehicles, less people, less cyclists, less traffic in"},{"t":15165,"text":"general to maneuver around. I think other elements of that were just the efficiency"},{"t":15169,"text":"of operations Again, with less other users"},{"t":15173,"text":"on the road, it's easier to get from site to site and do the pickup"},{"t":15176,"text":"as quickly as possible. Um, I hope"},{"t":15181,"text":"I've answered your question, but I'm happy to keep deliberating. Thanks."},{"t":15185,"text":"All right, anyone else on the amendment? Councillor Gardner on the"},{"t":15189,"text":"amendment. Large complexes very often have to"},{"t":15192,"text":"get their setup very, very early because it's too hard to get"},{"t":15197,"text":"through the city, and I fear that we have not consulted with large housing"},{"t":15200,"text":"complexes. Thank you very much. Yes,"},{"t":15204,"text":"go ahead, Councillor Hammond. Just one second before you finish off. Anyone else want to"},{"t":15208,"text":"speak on the amendment? I'm not seeing anybody online either. Go ahead, uh, go ahead,"},{"t":15211,"text":"Councillor Coleman. Question through Your Worship. In the discussions"},{"t":15215,"text":"with the service providers, did they suggest"},{"t":15219,"text":"that if we stayed at the 6:30, they would be increasing"},{"t":15223,"text":"their fleet as one of the responses?"},{"t":15228,"text":"Through the mayor, they gave us no indication of what would happen to their fleets"},{"t":15232,"text":"or how they would adjust their services. They simply said it would be challenging and"},{"t":15236,"text":"get in the way. Well, and I guess the context would be we are increasing"},{"t":15239,"text":"density, um, particularly for some of the large service areas,"},{"t":15243,"text":"service facilities. So the"},{"t":15247,"text":"only way, if you have a constricted time frame, the only way to address some"},{"t":15250,"text":"of those issues is to have a larger fleet. Am I correct"},{"t":15254,"text":"in that supposition? Do you know? Maybe you can't comment on that."},{"t":15258,"text":"Mr. Nichols. Through the Mayor, I would say you're correct on"},{"t":15262,"text":"that assumption, especially— That's twice today."},{"t":15266,"text":"It's a good day. Especially as larger,"},{"t":15269,"text":"you know, buildings require the use of private"},{"t":15273,"text":"waste collection services. Thank you."},{"t":15277,"text":"All right, Councillor Hammond, do you want to comment? Close up here."},{"t":15280,"text":"Thanks, Mayor. I just want to say my particular motion is— amendment"},{"t":15284,"text":"is not on the fly. This has been in place. It's supposed to be 6:30."},{"t":15287,"text":"We're moving it to 6:00, um, and when we have compliance"},{"t":15292,"text":"throughout the city at 6 o'clock, we're going to hear from residents."},{"t":15296,"text":"And I doubt that the general wanting to sleep public"},{"t":15300,"text":"has been asked this question about the time, and I think it's going to come"},{"t":15302,"text":"as some of a shock to them. Thank you very much. Anybody else on"},{"t":15307,"text":"the amendment? I don't see anybody online."},{"t":15311,"text":"Okay. All those in favour of the amendment, which is delete, as you can see,"},{"t":15315,"text":"the bolded language struck through to delete under Section 6,"},{"t":15318,"text":"6 to expand the waste collection service hours on weekdays and 6"},{"t":15323,"text":"to change waste collection hours to 6 a.m. to 7 p.m."},{"t":15327,"text":"weekdays and 9 a.m. to 7 p.m. on the weekends and holidays. Holidays."},{"t":15331,"text":"All those in favor of the amendment? Councillor Dell,"},{"t":15334,"text":"Councillor Kerodona, myself, Councillor Coleman, and Councillor Hammond."},{"t":15339,"text":"Councillor Lauten, Councillor Kim, and Councillor Thompson."},{"t":15343,"text":"In opposition? Councillor Gardiner is in opposition to"},{"t":15347,"text":"that amendment, but noting that opposition, the amendment is adopted."},{"t":15351,"text":"And Councillor Hammond, you still have the floor."},{"t":15355,"text":"Careful of my time, not to start too soon."},{"t":15365,"text":"Mm-hmm. So, Mayor, the only other thing I've got is about penalties, and is that"},{"t":15369,"text":"later for a motion arising or is it now? Penalties, oh, the one that we"},{"t":15373,"text":"discussed earlier? Yes. Oh, that's a motion arising. Okay, thanks very much. That's right."},{"t":15377,"text":"Are you concluded? Up next is Councillor Gardner."},{"t":15381,"text":"Councillor Gardiner. Oh,"},{"t":15385,"text":"okay. Does anyone else have any— Staff, can you delete"},{"t":15389,"text":"that bolded language there? Thank you. Just so we know what we're talking about."},{"t":15392,"text":"Great. Any other comments on the now amended recommendation?"},{"t":15400,"text":"Checking online. Nope. Okay. Councillor Gardiner,"},{"t":15403,"text":"over to you because there doesn't appear to be any other commentary on the recommendation,"},{"t":15406,"text":"although I do believe I believe there will be two motions arising."},{"t":15410,"text":"Go ahead."},{"t":15414,"text":"Add number 3. Add number 3. Direct staff to"},{"t":15418,"text":"bring forward the outdoor special events sound policy to council with"},{"t":15421,"text":"data— or with details concerning permits"},{"t":15427,"text":"for exemption permits and any"},{"t":15431,"text":"possible recommendations for change. So I'm just curious, are you specifying"},{"t":15435,"text":"this in relation to the noise bylaw? Number 5."},{"t":15442,"text":"You're referencing— Number 5."},{"t":15446,"text":"Okay. Can you pull up number 5 for us, please?"},{"t":15458,"text":"Is it possible, staff, for you to clip what Councillor"},{"t":15461,"text":"Gardiner just said and place it into the"},{"t":15466,"text":"right-hand box as a new number E, new letter"},{"t":15469,"text":"E."},{"t":15474,"text":"Thank you, Mayor. Staff suggested that it be up in the recommendations, but that's fine."},{"t":15478,"text":"I think it's more appropriate here because it actually— it does reference"},{"t":15481,"text":"some specific aspects of the noise bylaw."},{"t":15485,"text":"Otherwise, it would need to be a motion arising, which I don't think is As"},{"t":15489,"text":"I understand your intent, I don't think that would satisfy. Mayor, if I may,"},{"t":15492,"text":"it would be helpful for us if we could possibly hear it one more time."},{"t":15496,"text":"We didn't quite catch the entire amendment, the word. Councillor Carter, could you read that"},{"t":15500,"text":"again? Okay."},{"t":15533,"text":"Isn't it great how technology was supposed to bring such efficiency"},{"t":15537,"text":"to our lives? In fact, we wait for it"},{"t":15540,"text":"so often."},{"t":15552,"text":"Having difficulty?"},{"t":15557,"text":"Aha. All right."},{"t":15572,"text":"with data relating to use of the exemption,"},{"t":15577,"text":"permit exemption, and any recommendations."},{"t":15585,"text":"I don't think you need to include to council because that's"},{"t":15589,"text":"what staff would whether staff would bring it. So you could just say"},{"t":15593,"text":"direct staff to bring forward. How about, this is what we"},{"t":15597,"text":"usually do, direct staff to report back with,"},{"t":15601,"text":"to report back with."},{"t":15605,"text":"And so you can take out bring forward and that"},{"t":15611,"text":"and put in an, an."},{"t":15617,"text":"Outdoor special event sound policy, take up to council with"},{"t":15621,"text":"data related to use of exemptions."},{"t":15625,"text":"And I"},{"t":15630,"text":"think that's pretty clear. Is that what you intend?"},{"t":15637,"text":"What's— what is it you're trying to clarify?"},{"t":15640,"text":"Okay, so then just put the instead of an."},{"t":15643,"text":"Yes. Okay. Is that what you're intending?"},{"t":15648,"text":"Prior to the bylaw being created. In other"},{"t":15653,"text":"words, do this earlier. Okay. I'm sorry you didn't say that earlier. If you do"},{"t":15656,"text":"that, then in fact this is not the right place for it. I didn't realize"},{"t":15659,"text":"that you were making it a contingency."},{"t":15662,"text":"So, yeah, I'm sorry, staff, that I didn't understand that this was going to be"},{"t":15666,"text":"a contingent clause and so you'll have to cut that as it is but don't"},{"t":15669,"text":"lose it. And as you cut it out, then you will"},{"t":15672,"text":"have to bring it back to the main recommendations."},{"t":15677,"text":"So you just want to replace that with what it just was."},{"t":15684,"text":"Did you have a question? Sorry, okay. Oh, I see, yes, sorry, sneezing, yes,"},{"t":15687,"text":"gotcha. Okay."},{"t":15691,"text":"Yeah, there's a— Prior"},{"t":15696,"text":"to the bylaw returning to council? Or the introduction of bylaws"},{"t":15700,"text":"or something, yeah. Prior to the bylaws returning to council for preliminary consideration,"},{"t":15705,"text":"for preliminary readings, returning to council for preliminary readings."},{"t":15711,"text":"Okay. Now I understand that, Tareed and staff, correct me if I'm"},{"t":15715,"text":"wrong, that you, if this is adopted and becomes part"},{"t":15719,"text":"of the whole motion, then you will go off and prepare"},{"t":15723,"text":"the bylaws. You will assume that we've approved both Table"},{"t":15727,"text":"4 and Table 5 as they have been amended, or one has been amended,"},{"t":15732,"text":"but that before you do return to us with those two pieces,"},{"t":15735,"text":"that you will do number 3. Is that what you recommend? Is that what you"},{"t":15738,"text":"understand? Mr. Kingsley, you're nodding. Is that correct? Yes,"},{"t":15742,"text":"Mayor, correct. So you'll do the work, but you won't actually bring that work to"},{"t":15745,"text":"us until you do number 3. That's correct. Number 3 we would need"},{"t":15749,"text":"to report back on before we could finalize the bylaws. Gotcha. Okay."},{"t":15752,"text":"So on the amendment, is there a seconder for that amendment?"},{"t":15763,"text":"Oh, you did. Okay. Sorry. Sorry. Yes, we're looking down. Okay. All right."},{"t":15767,"text":"Councillor Hammond is seconding the amendment. On the amendment, Councillor Gardiner."},{"t":15771,"text":"No, you have 2 minutes."},{"t":15777,"text":"I don't— I think as soon as we get the information that is being requested,"},{"t":15781,"text":"we will know whether or not we're really having a problem. And I"},{"t":15784,"text":"would hope that, well, if staff does this, that we'll also"},{"t":15788,"text":"look at the different types of special events because,"},{"t":15791,"text":"again, we don't want to, I think, interfere with the"},{"t":15794,"text":"real huge community events that are so valuable valued in the city."},{"t":15798,"text":"So the idea is to get a handle on them as to, uh,"},{"t":15802,"text":"who's actually bearing the cost of different kind of events that are going on at,"},{"t":15806,"text":"uh, especially at, uh— it doesn't name it, but especially at Ship"},{"t":15810,"text":"Point and at Market Square. Thank you. Thank you, Councillor Hammond. Anything as the"},{"t":15814,"text":"seconder? Nope. Anybody else on the amendment? Councillor Caradonna. Thanks, Mayor."},{"t":15817,"text":"I'll oppose this because I personally don't feel like I need more data"},{"t":15821,"text":"to move forward with the bylaw law, but I wouldn't mind seeing the data,"},{"t":15824,"text":"but I don't think that the data, at least for me personally, is not contingent"},{"t":15829,"text":"upon my ability to support the bylaw. I want this bylaw to move forward."},{"t":15832,"text":"Having that data could just be something that gets emailed to council for their own"},{"t":15835,"text":"consideration. So actually, I will amend the amendment"},{"t":15839,"text":"if possible. Yes. And put a period after exemptions and"},{"t":15844,"text":"erase everything else. Just hang"},{"t":15848,"text":"on one sec. One moment, please."},{"t":15854,"text":"Yep, that would be appropriate. Is there a seconder for that amendment to"},{"t":15859,"text":"the amendment? Essentially, that would mean that the work"},{"t":15863,"text":"would be done but it would not need to be returned to council before 1"},{"t":15867,"text":"and 2 were actually committed. Councillor Dell, you're seconding that amendment to the"},{"t":15871,"text":"amendment? Councillor Kerodin, on your amendment to the amendment?"},{"t":15874,"text":"A lot of work has been put into this bylaw, including thinking about,"},{"t":15878,"text":"uh, the special event sound policy, which I support."},{"t":15882,"text":"I would not mind having that data to understand how things might be changing."},{"t":15886,"text":"We have activated ShipPoint more, but I don't want the"},{"t":15890,"text":"data to come back and then there's yet more delays to the bylaw and,"},{"t":15893,"text":"and more attempts, frankly, to, to squeeze out"},{"t":15897,"text":"these kinds of activated events that we've brought to the city. I want those events"},{"t":15901,"text":"to happen. We have very talented staff, some of whom we've heard from"},{"t":15904,"text":"online. They are on top of sound issues, they know how to deal with them."},{"t":15908,"text":"And, uh, so I don't think that we need to slow down the process anymore."},{"t":15911,"text":"That said, having the data is always a good thing. So if this amendment to"},{"t":15915,"text":"the amendment passes, maybe it just gets emailed to all of council or something like"},{"t":15919,"text":"that, and then staff can continue along with their work of updating the bylaw."},{"t":15923,"text":"Councillor Dell is the seconder of the amendment to the amendment. Yeah,"},{"t":15926,"text":"I think at this point I'm just worried about how much work this creates"},{"t":15930,"text":"for staff. It's very easy for us to make motions, but there's actually people in"},{"t":15933,"text":"the city that have to go off and do a lot of that work,"},{"t":15935,"text":"and we are layering on a lot of work that I don't think is necessary."},{"t":15939,"text":"I mean, there's so much happening at the city. This, this— obviously there's"},{"t":15944,"text":"been a couple of bad— the odd, very, very few odd example of"},{"t":15947,"text":"ShipPoint. I think maybe 2 or 3 emails. Most people are extremely"},{"t":15950,"text":"happy with it, and really what I heard from the noise bylaw"},{"t":15954,"text":"when the public survey was out that people want this in the city. People don't"},{"t":15958,"text":"want to have to travel to Vancouver to watch live music. They want it at"},{"t":15961,"text":"Ship Point. They want it at Market Square. Of course, it's a little bit of"},{"t":15964,"text":"an inconvenience if you live right there. But this is kind of being set up"},{"t":15967,"text":"that these events are harmful to the city or are an annoyance,"},{"t":15971,"text":"and they're really not from what I've heard from folks. So I don't agree with"},{"t":15974,"text":"any of this, but I think layering on a bunch of work to"},{"t":15977,"text":"staff to write a report on ship point, you know,"},{"t":15981,"text":"the folk music versus the indie rock music is just, is just too much work."},{"t":15984,"text":"So I'll support this amendment."},{"t":15987,"text":"Thank you. On the amendment to the amendment, Councillor Gardner. Of the hundreds"},{"t":15991,"text":"of motions came through in the last 4 years, I think I probably had less"},{"t":15994,"text":"than half a dozen. So it is not me creating the extra work, and I"},{"t":15998,"text":"would like to know if staff thinks that this would delay the bylaw."},{"t":16002,"text":"That was a question I was going to ask staff if the if you did"},{"t":16005,"text":"this piece of work as a contingent aspect before you brought"},{"t":16009,"text":"back the rest, what would that mean time-wise?"},{"t":16013,"text":"This is a big job."},{"t":16017,"text":"Through the Mayor, this one would require coordination with"},{"t":16021,"text":"the arts and culture staff. So I don't want to speak on their behalf at"},{"t":16025,"text":"this point."},{"t":16027,"text":"But it certainly would add more work because"},{"t":16031,"text":"it would be another report potentially another report to council,"},{"t":16034,"text":"but we would be able— we would be proceeding with the bylaw work"},{"t":16039,"text":"regardless. But I guess the question is,"},{"t":16042,"text":"would it extend the time if you had to"},{"t":16046,"text":"come back with this report before you came back with the bylaws? Would that extend"},{"t":16050,"text":"the time by a significant amount? Clearly extended by something,"},{"t":16053,"text":"but is that a week or two? Or, Mr. Kingsley? Um,"},{"t":16057,"text":"Mayor, I think What we're trying to say,"},{"t":16059,"text":"there's a couple of aspects to this that make"},{"t":16063,"text":"it difficult for us to confirm whether or not it would take longer. It is"},{"t":16066,"text":"theoretically possible that we would be able to get that report done and get it"},{"t":16070,"text":"before council before the bylaws are ready."},{"t":16073,"text":"But there is, depending on the availability of Arts and Culture"},{"t":16077,"text":"staff and their workload, it is possible that we may not be able to get"},{"t":16081,"text":"it done and it would cause a delay in the timing of the bylaw coming"},{"t":16084,"text":"back. Did you have just a follow-up question to that? Did you anticipate these bylaws"},{"t":16088,"text":"in the absence of this, uh, that they would be back soon, or is"},{"t":16092,"text":"this months from now, or, uh, we don't anticipate"},{"t":16096,"text":"it would be a quick turnaround, Mayor. It will take staff, uh, quite a bit"},{"t":16100,"text":"of time to be working with legal staff to turn the concepts that"},{"t":16104,"text":"are listed in the staff report into concrete bylaw provisions. So we don't"},{"t":16107,"text":"believe that this will be a very quick things."},{"t":16110,"text":"So in my best guess and estimate, we may actually be able to do the"},{"t":16115,"text":"staff report anticipated in the proposed amendment. We may actually be able to do that"},{"t":16119,"text":"before the bylaw would be ready. I just didn't want to confirm and guarantee it."},{"t":16122,"text":"That's good to know. Councillor Gardner, you still have the floor on"},{"t":16126,"text":"the amendment to the amendment, which is delete the struck— deleting the struck-through language."},{"t":16130,"text":"Anything else? No, that's it. Anybody else"},{"t":16133,"text":"on the amendment to the amendment?"},{"t":16137,"text":"That would be to strike through the second part of the sentence in number 3."},{"t":16141,"text":"All those in favour of that amendment to the amendment?"},{"t":16145,"text":"Councillor Dell, Councillor Kerodona, Councillor Louton,"},{"t":16148,"text":"Councillor Thomson, Councillor Kim. Okay."},{"t":16152,"text":"And opposition? That would be myself, Councillor Colman,"},{"t":16156,"text":"Councillor Hammond, Councillor Gardiner. So that amendment"},{"t":16160,"text":"to the amendment is adopted 5 to 4, I believe that is That is correct."},{"t":16163,"text":"Yes, okay. So that amendment to the amendment passes"},{"t":16166,"text":"and so you can delete that section of the sentence. Councillor Kerodona, you still"},{"t":16171,"text":"have the floor. Nothing further other than to say I can support"},{"t":16175,"text":"this amendment now because it won't slow down the process. Okey dokey."},{"t":16178,"text":"Anybody else on the amendment that has now been amended?"},{"t":16183,"text":"One sec, Councillor Gardner. Thank you. We just heard from staff that there is nothing"},{"t":16186,"text":"to suggest that this will Slow down the process. Correct."},{"t":16189,"text":"So anyone else on the amendment? That's just to add the bolded language"},{"t":16193,"text":"now called number 3. I'm not seeing anybody else."},{"t":16197,"text":"All those in favor of number 3? Anybody opposed to number 3?"},{"t":16201,"text":"Don't think so. That is unanimous. That— I'm sorry,"},{"t":16204,"text":"Councillor Dell was opposed. I didn't notice that. So Councillor Dell is opposed to number"},{"t":16208,"text":"3. So noting that one in opposition, number 3 is added to the main motion."},{"t":16212,"text":"Thank you very much for that. Councillor Gardiner, you still have the floor."},{"t":16216,"text":"Nope, you're done. Anybody else on this?"},{"t":16220,"text":"In motion is amended. Go ahead, Councillor Coleman."},{"t":16224,"text":"Thank you. And through you, let me start by thanking staff."},{"t":16229,"text":"Um, this is what we do. The noise bylaw is"},{"t":16233,"text":"not the wicked problem as we normally define it,"},{"t":16236,"text":"but it's not far off that. It is always changing."},{"t":16240,"text":"Staff have done an incredible job bringing this forward."},{"t":16243,"text":"There will be always initiatives that cause distress"},{"t":16247,"text":"to some of our public and they'll want things changed. I would remind people"},{"t":16251,"text":"that we not too long ago got an email telling"},{"t":16256,"text":"how impactful the sound of ambulance"},{"t":16260,"text":"sirens was to them and they wanted that turned"},{"t":16263,"text":"down. Um, that that there is always going to"},{"t":16267,"text":"be— and I think it's very real for that one person. We're not going to"},{"t":16271,"text":"change ambulance sirens. They're an incredibly important part of a safe community."},{"t":16276,"text":"But there are always things that are going to be difficult. Staff have brought forward"},{"t":16280,"text":"a whole slew of things that are problematic, that are sticky."},{"t":16284,"text":"I think they deserve our thanks, and I'm"},{"t":16287,"text":"quite willing to support this as we move forward. It's not perfect."},{"t":16291,"text":"Nothing ever is. Thank you. Councillor Gardner, on the"},{"t":16295,"text":"main motion as amended. Thank you. As I mentioned before, this is a really strong"},{"t":16300,"text":"change, and I think it will be a very welcome change once all"},{"t":16304,"text":"of the things that we didn't discuss today are actually implemented, because we actually"},{"t":16307,"text":"didn't discuss most of the items in the report. And so—"},{"t":16311,"text":"and I will be explaining that to people as they ask as to"},{"t":16315,"text":"the things that will really perhaps solve their problems"},{"t":16319,"text":"or what the impacts of noise on them. So I appreciate"},{"t":16323,"text":"that and I realize we didn't get to talk to most of the issues today."},{"t":16326,"text":"We only talked about the ones we had problems with. And so— and there's a"},{"t":16329,"text":"lot in this report. There's an awful lot in it. And so thank you very"},{"t":16334,"text":"much for that. Thanks so much. Anybody else on the"},{"t":16338,"text":"main motion? Yes. I would just extend"},{"t":16342,"text":"our thanks to what was an incredibly arcane and complex"},{"t":16347,"text":"situation that we've actually been trying to deal with for many, many years. So thank"},{"t":16349,"text":"you for tackling that and doing it so comprehensively. It'll be interesting to see what"},{"t":16352,"text":"the bylaws actually look like and more interesting to see the impact of"},{"t":16356,"text":"them as they are implemented. With that then, I believe we have canvassed that"},{"t":16360,"text":"adequately. All those in favor of the amended recommendation?"},{"t":16365,"text":"Is anyone opposed? I believe that is unanimous."},{"t":16369,"text":"Thank you very much for that. Thank you, staff. Well done."},{"t":16373,"text":"That takes us on then to one more item, and that is the"},{"t":16376,"text":"additional item of new business that was added to the agenda earlier"},{"t":16380,"text":"this morning. Mayor, remember, there's two motions arising. Yes, my apologies. Yes, there are two."},{"t":16384,"text":"Yes, thank you for that. Two motions arising that I'm aware of."},{"t":16387,"text":"One is from Councillor Caradona, the other is from Councillor Hammond."},{"t":16392,"text":"Thanks. Caradona, let's start with you. Okay, thanks."},{"t":16395,"text":"Staff almost got I got to get away, but— Yes,"},{"t":16398,"text":"right. I sent it to Legislative Services."},{"t":16403,"text":"I don't expect that this will generate too many questions, but you never know."},{"t":16422,"text":"There you go."},{"t":16427,"text":"Council directs staff to phase out gas power loop closures, including changes to the"},{"t":16431,"text":"noise bylaw if applicable, and on a timeline set by staff."},{"t":16435,"text":"That seems very clear. Is there a seconder for that? I think—"},{"t":16439,"text":"I'll second that for— I think Councillor Thomson was going to second that. Oh,"},{"t":16442,"text":"yes, of course. Councillor Thomson, do you still wish to second that? Yes. Okay."},{"t":16446,"text":"Councillor Thomson is seconding. Very good. Go, Councillor Cardona."},{"t":16449,"text":"I will be brief. So this is, uh,"},{"t":16452,"text":"I'm proposing this action based upon the noise that's emitted by these blowers."},{"t":16457,"text":"We do not have environmental regulatory authority in this province,"},{"t":16460,"text":"so it has to be based on noise, and hence the reference to the noise"},{"t":16463,"text":"bylaw. We do know that for many years now there's been alternatives to gas"},{"t":16467,"text":"blowers that are quieter, namely the electric ones. We have seen"},{"t":16471,"text":"precedent set locally by Oak Bay that has taken action on the same file."},{"t":16475,"text":"And so I think that there is a sufficient rationale to move in this direction."},{"t":16479,"text":"I, I want to just skip report back— reports back here because there's already been"},{"t":16483,"text":"several in the past and staff have looked at this a lot. Normally we start"},{"t":16487,"text":"with a report back, but going back to 2021, 2023, there might have even been"},{"t":16490,"text":"another one. I think it's sufficient to move forward. Note that it"},{"t":16494,"text":"says they're on a timeline set by staff, so whatever staff comes up with,"},{"t":16498,"text":"if that's 3 years, 5 years,"},{"t":16499,"text":"it's in your hands. I don't know enough about the industry and"},{"t":16503,"text":"the timelines of replacement technologies and all of that, so I feel"},{"t":16506,"text":"confident just leaving it in your hands and then"},{"t":16510,"text":"come back and finalize it with council whenever that is applicable"},{"t":16514,"text":"in the future. Thanks. Thank you. Councilor Thomson as a seconder."},{"t":16519,"text":"Thanks, Mayor. Yes, this is— and thanks to the mover."},{"t":16524,"text":"I let him know after learning of his motion arising"},{"t":16528,"text":"that I had one drafted too. So happy to second this one."},{"t":16532,"text":"This is something that's been discussed for many, many years, and not just"},{"t":16535,"text":"here in Victoria, not just in our region with, with Oak Bay,"},{"t":16539,"text":"but in cities across the continent."},{"t":16542,"text":"And electric leaf blowers— and I have one— have"},{"t":16546,"text":"gotten a lot better. They're continuing to evolve."},{"t":16551,"text":"This is, this can't, this can't be a surprise to anyone at"},{"t":16556,"text":"this point, and, uh, but I do think it's still valuable to have"},{"t":16560,"text":"some sort of a phase-in period, um, uh, to minimize"},{"t":16564,"text":"the impact, uh, on people who've made minor investments"},{"t":16569,"text":"in these small pieces of equipment. Um,"},{"t":16573,"text":"it's something that comes up that I do hear complaints about,"},{"t":16578,"text":"And with, with an easy fix"},{"t":16583,"text":"like this, I think this should move forward. Thanks. Thank you very much."},{"t":16586,"text":"Anyone else on this motion arising?"},{"t":16590,"text":"Not seeing any other hands. Oh, good. Go ahead, Councillor Coleman. Thank you."},{"t":16594,"text":"Actually, a question through you. Because this is related"},{"t":16598,"text":"to the noise bylaw, what happens in the case where a"},{"t":16602,"text":"new gas-powered leaf blower comes out that's quieter?"},{"t":16607,"text":"I suspect that that would mean that staff would have to consider that when"},{"t":16611,"text":"they eventually return with any recommendations they might propose."},{"t":16615,"text":"Since it is referencing the noise bylaw, which is relevant given that it's here"},{"t":16618,"text":"as a motion arising with regard to changes to the noise bylaw,"},{"t":16622,"text":"that would certainly be— have a significant impact if in the next"},{"t":16626,"text":"period of time when this was being considered that remarkable new technology occurred."},{"t":16630,"text":"It would just be part of the report pack, I would think."},{"t":16634,"text":"With that, not seeing any other hands, all those in favor of this"},{"t":16638,"text":"motion arising? Is anyone opposed? That is unanimous."},{"t":16643,"text":"That was it for you, I believe, Councillor Kerodona. Yes, Councillor Hammond, you also have"},{"t":16647,"text":"a motion arising. Have you shared it with staff? Okay."},{"t":16661,"text":"Council direct staff to explore increasing penalties for breaches of"},{"t":16665,"text":"the noise bylaw. Some things are not just a cost of doing business. Okay,"},{"t":16669,"text":"I'm not sure that the part after bylaw is necessary, but that's"},{"t":16672,"text":"not my crafting, so there you go. That does seem fairly straightforward, and that"},{"t":16676,"text":"of course also does not have a time on it, so it"},{"t":16681,"text":"it's left with staff to determine how best to execute that should it be adopted."},{"t":16683,"text":"Is there a seconder for that? Thanks, Councillor Cardona."},{"t":16686,"text":"Councillor Hammond, over to you. Is this within the 10-minute"},{"t":16689,"text":"timeline? Yes. Okay. All right. 32 seconds. Okay."},{"t":16693,"text":"Just to— and the reason that I put, Mayor, you take credit for the first"},{"t":16696,"text":"wording that I wrote down. The second word, just to be very clear, this is"},{"t":16699,"text":"what I heard is a problem with the— there's"},{"t":16703,"text":"just not proper penalties. I think people will abide by it if they know"},{"t":16707,"text":"that it's not just a cost of doing business, and I want to be very"},{"t":16709,"text":"clear to staff about that. Thank you very much. Councillor Kerner,"},{"t":16713,"text":"you did second this, but you actually have 1 second on the clock. 1 second?"},{"t":16717,"text":"1 second. That's it. Yes."},{"t":16721,"text":"Okay, there you go. You now have 0 seconds on the clock. Uh,"},{"t":16724,"text":"anyone else on this motion arising? I'm not seeing"},{"t":16728,"text":"any other hands. Just checking online. Nope. All those in favor?"},{"t":16732,"text":"Is anyone opposed? That is also unanimous."},{"t":16735,"text":"Thank you. Are there any other motions arising?"},{"t":16741,"text":"Not seeing any, but I think actually, staff, you can take that as a"},{"t":16745,"text":"vote of confidence that not only did you execute your task ably,"},{"t":16749,"text":"but you also generated sufficient interest to require us to add to it."},{"t":16752,"text":"So thank you for that. Now moving on to"},{"t":16756,"text":"a new item of business. Item J, the new Item J,"},{"t":16760,"text":"which is— in fact is the introduction of a motion that council approved"},{"t":16764,"text":"as a late addition to our agenda earlier this morning."},{"t":16767,"text":"This is in fact a council member motion with regard to a"},{"t":16771,"text":"public statement and position on the federal designation of the West Coast Pipeline as a"},{"t":16775,"text":"project of national interest. It was added to our agenda,"},{"t":16779,"text":"as I just mentioned, and so I would look to Councillor Kim to move"},{"t":16787,"text":"So, Councillor Kim, please motivate behind"},{"t":16791,"text":"your council member motion. Thank you. Yeah."},{"t":16795,"text":"This is a pipeline"},{"t":16799,"text":"that is being proposed by the federal government and"},{"t":16804,"text":"cynics, which— of which I would include myself,"},{"t":16807,"text":"say that this is in response to threats"},{"t":16811,"text":"from the province of Alberta to leave Canada and"},{"t":16815,"text":"to appease said province, which is having knock-on effects on BC."},{"t":16820,"text":"So that's part one. Part two is that BC itself"},{"t":16823,"text":"is becoming a climate laggard, having stepped away from its"},{"t":16827,"text":"Clean BC commitments to the point where even those experts"},{"t":16832,"text":"who were asked by the province of BC to study Clean"},{"t":16836,"text":"BC, those experts in their recent report that was published said"},{"t":16841,"text":"We can't meet our climate emission targets if"},{"t":16845,"text":"the province keeps going forward in this way. And so that"},{"t":16851,"text":"piece too, coupled with piece one, coupled with also our"},{"t":16855,"text":"own Prime Minister fully admitting in the media that we as"},{"t":16858,"text":"a country should be expecting increased emissions in the coming years,"},{"t":16862,"text":"it's just so I"},{"t":16867,"text":"struggle to come up with the words for how truly insulting"},{"t":16870,"text":"and heartbreaking that is for those of us who have and"},{"t":16874,"text":"continue to live through the climate crisis. The other"},{"t":16878,"text":"day I was telling someone about how the heat dome in Victoria literally"},{"t":16882,"text":"had deaths. We are looking at misting"},{"t":16887,"text":"stations, cooling stations like it's part of the new normal when it really shouldn't be."},{"t":16891,"text":"And so Um, when you take all of these pieces together,"},{"t":16894,"text":"I think that we should, as the city, stand on our"},{"t":16900,"text":"track record of advocacy on behalf of this"},{"t":16904,"text":"coastal community to protect the coast, to protect our climate, to protect"},{"t":16909,"text":"our environment, everything that defines us and our, uh, lived environment,"},{"t":16913,"text":"um, and say no, this is not a project of national interest. In fact,"},{"t":16917,"text":"if I could be so glib, it is a project of national disinterest"},{"t":16921,"text":"and I believe that this council should take a position on that."},{"t":16926,"text":"Let it be known a little more formally to the federal government"},{"t":16930,"text":"and do right by our residents."},{"t":16934,"text":"Thanks. Thank you, Councillor Kerodonas, the seconder."},{"t":16938,"text":"Yeah, thanks, Mayor, and thank you to the mover for bringing forward and putting"},{"t":16942,"text":"one really important piece onto our collective radar, which is that"},{"t":16946,"text":"the Government of Canada has issued a notice allowing the public"},{"t":16950,"text":"to submit comments. And so this is, in a sense, more than advocacy."},{"t":16954,"text":"This would be, in theory, a formal submission from the"},{"t":16958,"text":"city laying out our position on an issue that would have potential"},{"t":16962,"text":"impacts on our environment. So I guess my one question, actually, and I"},{"t":16966,"text":"don't know if it's for the mover or maybe to legislative staff,"},{"t":16969,"text":"but the way that this is worded,"},{"t":16972,"text":"a public statement is fine. You know, you could put something on the, on the"},{"t":16976,"text":"website or a press release or something, but if this is actually a"},{"t":16980,"text":"formal piece of input to a statutory engagement"},{"t":16985,"text":"process, wouldn't that mean that there is a formal letter written to,"},{"t":16989,"text":"I don't know, whatever ministry of the Government of Canada that's,"},{"t":16992,"text":"that's holding this engagement? Like, to whom do we submit a formal,"},{"t":16997,"text":"um, statement of position or principle? Or I think I can"},{"t":17001,"text":"answer that, Councillor. In fact, the second part of this does answer this,"},{"t":17005,"text":"that in the request for the Mayor to provide a submission within the same"},{"t":17008,"text":"vein to the project of national interest consultation process. So that is"},{"t":17013,"text":"slightly more formal than would be a letter."},{"t":17016,"text":"That would be something that would be over the City's and/or"},{"t":17020,"text":"the Mayor's letterhead, which provides the essence"},{"t":17024,"text":"of what is in the previous paragraphs as a formal position"},{"t":17028,"text":"taken by by city council. So, okay, go through that process"},{"t":17032,"text":"formally. Okay, so I, I didn't understand that. So the Project of National"},{"t":17036,"text":"Interest is actually some kind of Crown corp or body that"},{"t":17040,"text":"receives information? It's a process. Okay, so would"},{"t":17044,"text":"this need to be amended, or is it implied that this would be both a"},{"t":17047,"text":"public statement and a formal submission to a government agency? It is."},{"t":17051,"text":"If you can scroll down, there's a number 2, which actually— okay, so maybe we"},{"t":17054,"text":"need to look at number 2. Yeah, it's— keep going."},{"t":17059,"text":"Okay. The very last piece is— Yes, thank you. I was unaware that that"},{"t":17063,"text":"is like an actual body. I thought that that was a concept. No. All right."},{"t":17067,"text":"So my understanding is that it's a recipient of information. Okay, so that's my mistake"},{"t":17070,"text":"then. So I'll just say plus one to the comments that were made"},{"t":17075,"text":"by the mover. It sort of brings"},{"t":17078,"text":"me back to Trans Mountain Pipeline. Which was a very contentious"},{"t":17083,"text":"engagement process several years ago in which many local governments"},{"t":17088,"text":"made their voices heard, and I think provincial governments as well."},{"t":17091,"text":"For whatever reason, this proposed new West Coast pipeline has had a fraction,"},{"t":17095,"text":"I think, of that attention. I think as so many"},{"t":17099,"text":"Canadians have rallied behind the flag and rallied behind the Prime Minister"},{"t":17103,"text":"and we're in the midst of this trade war, and so I think some of"},{"t":17107,"text":"impetus or the impulse that some of us might have to say, hang on,"},{"t":17110,"text":"some of these projects actually don't make sense, has fallen by the wayside"},{"t":17114,"text":"because people are looking at the bigger picture. And I understand why people are"},{"t":17118,"text":"looking at the bigger picture, but there's also a moment in which we need to"},{"t":17120,"text":"say some of these projects don't make any sense and are— actually"},{"t":17125,"text":"have the ability or have the potential to harm our economy and"},{"t":17129,"text":"our way of life over time. Some of the other projects of national significance around"},{"t":17133,"text":"transportation around clean energy, at least for me personally, are very easy"},{"t":17137,"text":"to support. This one is not easy to support. I think the overwhelming majority"},{"t":17141,"text":"of Victorians would not want to see this and would understand the risks to our"},{"t":17145,"text":"coastal environment. And frankly, even our Member of Parliament hasn't, hasn't been thrilled about it."},{"t":17149,"text":"In the mailing that he sent to every single household, he said that he's advocating"},{"t":17152,"text":"within caucus against the pipeline. So I"},{"t":17156,"text":"think that, that says it all for where Victorians stand. So I think it's it,"},{"t":17159,"text":"it, it would make sense for us as a, as a local government to clarify"},{"t":17162,"text":"our position on this and make our voices heard to the project of"},{"t":17166,"text":"national interest body. Thanks. Thank you very much."},{"t":17170,"text":"Anybody else on this?"},{"t":17174,"text":"Councilor Coleman. Thank you. This is, um,"},{"t":17177,"text":"a difficult one and, and personal for me, and I'll get into that"},{"t":17181,"text":"in a few seconds. Normally when we advocate on issues"},{"t":17184,"text":"of national interest we use our lobbying organization,"},{"t":17188,"text":"the Federation of Canadian Municipalities. They do have a position,"},{"t":17193,"text":"and this varies from it. I think"},{"t":17196,"text":"that— I suspect that people who support the recommendation"},{"t":17200,"text":"in front of us think that the FCM position is a"},{"t":17204,"text":"bit milquetoast. Rather than issuing a blanket approval"},{"t":17207,"text":"or rejection, FCM's official policy stance focuses on ensuring"},{"t":17211,"text":"federal Governments directly support local communities through rigorous"},{"t":17215,"text":"safety standards, financial accountability, and proactive consultation."},{"t":17220,"text":"It's based on 4 positions: an infrastructure"},{"t":17224,"text":"protection issue, an emergency management issue, environmental oversight,"},{"t":17228,"text":"and Indigenous consultation. The reason"},{"t":17232,"text":"this is personal is— actually came up in the first part of"},{"t":17236,"text":"the presentation by the person pushing this motion forward."},{"t":17240,"text":"It is about the way this motion will be seen by"},{"t":17243,"text":"other areas, particularly in Alberta."},{"t":17248,"text":"We know that— I mean, the timing of this is understandable"},{"t":17252,"text":"because of the September 18th date, but it's really unfortunate given"},{"t":17255,"text":"that Alberta will be going through their sovereignty referendum in"},{"t":17260,"text":"October. And the reason I say it's personal When"},{"t":17264,"text":"we dealt with Victoria's position on TMX,"},{"t":17268,"text":"I was running for the third vice president's position of FCM."},{"t":17272,"text":"And I got castigated by the Alberta caucus and"},{"t":17276,"text":"may have lost the third vice president's position because of it."},{"t":17280,"text":"I was actually against that Victoria position, but I defended it"},{"t":17285,"text":"as a position that the full body of council"},{"t":17289,"text":"had taken. So there are other people watching, and there is"},{"t":17293,"text":"a group in Alberta that will focus on the capital of British Columbia is"},{"t":17298,"text":"pushing a stick in our eye, and that will take on its own longevity."},{"t":17304,"text":"On a different issue, we know that our voice is heard in"},{"t":17308,"text":"other parts of the country, and I hearken back to the referendum"},{"t":17312,"text":"in 1995 on sovereignty in Quebec. Beothuk Mi'kmaq First Nation."},{"t":17315,"text":"1980 had seen the first one, and the people of Duncan,"},{"t":17319,"text":"bless them, twinned with Montmagny in the"},{"t":17323,"text":"Gaspé. And leading up to the second referendum in 1995,"},{"t":17328,"text":"they reached out to their friends in the Gaspé Peninsula to say,"},{"t":17331,"text":"\"This is important to us too.\" And it"},{"t":17335,"text":"was on a knife's edge, if you remember, those of you who are old enough"},{"t":17338,"text":"to remember the 1995 referendum. And the Gaspé Peninsula"},{"t":17343,"text":"was predicated, projected to go 80% in favour of separation."},{"t":17347,"text":"It went 78%, the one anomaly being"},{"t":17351,"text":"Duncan's sister city, Montmagny, which went 60% in favour"},{"t":17355,"text":"of staying in Canada because there was a relationship across the country."},{"t":17359,"text":"So while I understand the emotion that"},{"t":17363,"text":"goes with this and the fear of climate change and"},{"t":17366,"text":"the impacts we all feel. I also recognize that other people"},{"t":17371,"text":"are watching and it will have its own message."},{"t":17375,"text":"Am I happy that we're moving forward with something?"},{"t":17378,"text":"I will point out that the million barrels a day that's talked"},{"t":17382,"text":"about is one freighter, or perhaps two, depending which VLCC"},{"t":17387,"text":"or ULCC is used. Um, so it"},{"t":17391,"text":"doesn't diminish in any way the potential impact"},{"t":17395,"text":"of something going wrong. But the FCM approach"},{"t":17399,"text":"is different than this, and I would support the FCM approach, and therefore I would"},{"t":17404,"text":"be voting against this one. Thank you"},{"t":17407,"text":"very much. Councillor Thompson. Oh,"},{"t":17411,"text":"thanks, Mayor. Um, and I'd like to thank the mover"},{"t":17415,"text":"for bringing this forward. Um, I guess the most important thing for Victoria"},{"t":17420,"text":"residents is the, the risks to Victoria residents and"},{"t":17423,"text":"businesses if there is more oil moving through pipelines"},{"t":17427,"text":"to the coast of BC and then moving up and down the"},{"t":17431,"text":"coastline in tankers."},{"t":17436,"text":"Um, I just do want to speak to the point about, um,"},{"t":17440,"text":"others are watching in Alberta,"},{"t":17444,"text":"which also I think was sort of adverted to by the mover,"},{"t":17448,"text":"uh, discussing blackmail by separatists. That's two"},{"t":17451,"text":"sides of the same coin. Um, and I just want to remind everybody"},{"t":17455,"text":"that Canada has already built an oil pipeline at taxpayers'"},{"t":17459,"text":"expense, uh, intended to buy peace from Alberta."},{"t":17463,"text":"It didn't work. Um, it seems"},{"t":17467,"text":"like the separatists are pretending it never happened and, and they're back to blackmailing us."},{"t":17470,"text":"So I think a pipeline is bad public policy,"},{"t":17475,"text":"that the federal government should be investing, if anything,"},{"t":17479,"text":"in clean electricity and a strong"},{"t":17483,"text":"east-west grid. But as I mentioned, the most"},{"t":17486,"text":"important thing is the potential impacts to Victoria"},{"t":17490,"text":"residents and businesses. So I'll be supporting this. Thanks."},{"t":17494,"text":"Thank you very much. Anyone else on this one?"},{"t":17498,"text":"Councillor Gardiner."},{"t":17503,"text":"For many of these motions, what really gets me is the hypocrisy."},{"t":17507,"text":"Our province obviously uses gas, we use petroleum products."},{"t":17510,"text":"Just look around, we're doing it all the time. Of course we are."},{"t":17514,"text":"And I just find this really, really destructive."},{"t":17520,"text":"We're doing so much. Don't mind me, every time I see that pile of"},{"t":17524,"text":"coal Atawasan, I think, who are"},{"t":17528,"text":"we kidding? So the simple things like"},{"t":17532,"text":"the coal, because that is relatively simple,"},{"t":17536,"text":"we're putting up with, we're all supporting through"},{"t":17540,"text":"our government, and we shouldn't be. The fact that the Americans don't wanna"},{"t":17544,"text":"ship it out and Canada will ship it out, which is far worse than any"},{"t":17546,"text":"gas or oil that we're gonna look at when it comes to burning."},{"t":17550,"text":"So I just find it so hypocritical that we keep doing this."},{"t":17554,"text":"And by this I mean many of these advocacy motions that"},{"t":17558,"text":"frankly most people don't pay attention to. But as just been explained to"},{"t":17562,"text":"us, in this case, people will be paying attention to this one."},{"t":17567,"text":"And it would— might cause really damage to our city,"},{"t":17570,"text":"not just the city but the province. And I think that it's been very eloquently"},{"t":17574,"text":"stated by Soon-to-be-retired Councillor Colman."},{"t":17581,"text":"Thank you very much."},{"t":17584,"text":"Question for Mr. Johnson."},{"t":17587,"text":"Should this motion be adopted when it says issues"},{"t":17592,"text":"the following public statement, how would you imagine that being undertaken?"},{"t":17598,"text":"Thanks for the question. Through you, Mayor,"},{"t":17601,"text":"I looked at number 2 being there's a submission to actually be made and"},{"t":17605,"text":"that we would probably likely crib a message from that submission and"},{"t":17609,"text":"we could simply post it on latest news,"},{"t":17613,"text":"you know, council made the following statement today"},{"t":17616,"text":"on said topic."},{"t":17620,"text":"Thank you for that. I read this motion differently. Okay."},{"t":17623,"text":"Insofar as I believe the— and correct me, Councillor Kim,"},{"t":17626,"text":"if I'm wrong here— I read this as this statement"},{"t":17630,"text":"is to be released unedited and"},{"t":17634,"text":"that as a secondary action that"},{"t":17638,"text":"the Mayor's Office creates submission to"},{"t":17642,"text":"the process based upon that statement. So I would think it would happen"},{"t":17646,"text":"in reverse order. Fair point."},{"t":17650,"text":"Yeah. Okay. Then I have a question for the mover."},{"t":17654,"text":"And Councillor Kim, I will refer to you directly as the mover."},{"t":17660,"text":"There is a line amidst all of these, what I"},{"t":17665,"text":"would consider to be relatively factual statements, which I think"},{"t":17668,"text":"undermines the credibility of the statement by the degree"},{"t":17672,"text":"of its hyperbole. And that is the line that says,"},{"t":17676,"text":"\"But amid a summer of climate disasters,"},{"t":17679,"text":"the Government of Canada is lighting a match to one of the world's largest"},{"t":17682,"text":"carbon bombs.\" That is a lovely statement"},{"t":17686,"text":"and quite poetic, but I think that it stands out amidst"},{"t":17690,"text":"the rest of the statements, which are fairly straightforward"},{"t":17694,"text":"and making assertions I believe are actually able to be fact-checked."},{"t":17699,"text":"I would like to move an amendment to delete that line."},{"t":17704,"text":"And I would see if there is a seconder."},{"t":17711,"text":"I just want someone to second it. Yeah. Susan, do you want"},{"t":17714,"text":"to second that? What's your thought?"},{"t":17719,"text":"I don't, but I did see a colleague online raise"},{"t":17722,"text":"their hand. Well, I'm not sure if Councillor Thompson has his hand"},{"t":17726,"text":"up. It does appear for some reason, continues to appear that he has it up."},{"t":17729,"text":"Councillor Thompson, is your hand up on purpose or is it again residual?"},{"t":17733,"text":"I have my hand up on purpose and it was to address a related"},{"t":17737,"text":"point to this. Okay. But not to second this."},{"t":17741,"text":"We're in the middle of a process now. Okay. Yeah. All right. So I"},{"t":17744,"text":"will look for a seconder to delete that line."},{"t":17749,"text":"Councillor Coleman, are you seconding that? Okay. So just"},{"t":17753,"text":"on that, I mean, I'm prepared to support the rest of this because I think"},{"t":17756,"text":"it's fairly straightforward, as I mentioned. And I think that the"},{"t":17760,"text":"purpose of it is supportable. The execution of it is supportable."},{"t":17764,"text":"Supportable, the language is supportable, but I think that it is too"},{"t":17769,"text":"frequent that folks who wish to"},{"t":17773,"text":"make a point on a critical issue delve"},{"t":17777,"text":"a little too far into hyperbolic language that then"},{"t":17780,"text":"allows others who are detracting from it to dismiss"},{"t":17784,"text":"the entire thing. And so I think the language"},{"t":17788,"text":"in this particular line does just that. And I think that removing it allows"},{"t":17793,"text":"the totality of the rest of the statement to be something that is much"},{"t":17797,"text":"more definable, much more defensible, able to"},{"t":17801,"text":"be, as I say, fact-checked and able to therefore persuade more people to support"},{"t":17805,"text":"it. And so I think it improves the efficacy"},{"t":17809,"text":"and the utility of the entire statement if this particular line is"},{"t":17813,"text":"not in it. Councillor Colman, you thoughtfully allowed me to"},{"t":17817,"text":"speak to that as a seconder. Do you have anything to add? Thank you."},{"t":17820,"text":"I, I agree with your assessment."},{"t":17823,"text":"I'm still going to be voting against the issue, but I think this does"},{"t":17827,"text":"make it better. Thank you. On the amendment to delete"},{"t":17830,"text":"that line, uh, Councillor Kim, I see your hand up."},{"t":17834,"text":"Yeah, uh, thanks, Mayor. Um, don't get me wrong, I don't"},{"t":17838,"text":"disagree. Uh, just as we had with an earlier conversation"},{"t":17842,"text":"about the language of prescribed drugs. Um,"},{"t":17846,"text":"yeah, I, I recognize the utility of watering"},{"t":17850,"text":"something down in order to make it truly more supportable,"},{"t":17854,"text":"but I also think that, uh, for what it's worth,"},{"t":17857,"text":"um, this is also a reflection of the sense of,"},{"t":17861,"text":"um, urgency and panic that some residents feel."},{"t":17865,"text":"And to me, that hyperbole is, is, is, um,"},{"t":17869,"text":"is one I, I would stand by personally. So while On,"},{"t":17873,"text":"on an operational, purely rhetorical level,"},{"t":17876,"text":"I agree with you. I do stand"},{"t":17881,"text":"by the principle of what's being said here. So thanks. Very good. Councillor Thompson,"},{"t":17885,"text":"do you have— is this your hand is on this item?"},{"t":17889,"text":"Yeah, maybe I'll seek your guidance on this, Mayor. I was going to"},{"t":17893,"text":"speak to a related point before you started,"},{"t":17897,"text":"which was to— and it was going to be to ask you a question,"},{"t":17900,"text":"Mayor, which is Is"},{"t":17904,"text":"the motion as currently worded going to"},{"t":17908,"text":"be the most effective wording that"},{"t":17912,"text":"we could use to achieve the outcome desired, or can that wording"},{"t":17916,"text":"be improved? And then my second question for you was going to be,"},{"t":17921,"text":"if the latter, if it can be approved, should we provide more general direction to"},{"t":17925,"text":"you to— or request to you to write the letter."},{"t":17931,"text":"So that being said, not sure whether that comment"},{"t":17934,"text":"is relevant to this amendment or to"},{"t":17938,"text":"a subsequent question to you. Look for your guidance there."},{"t":17941,"text":"Well, I think arguably it could be both. If I understood your question correctly,"},{"t":17946,"text":"I obviously would want to make the argument that this leans into the"},{"t":17950,"text":"ability to make this more clear, but that's perhaps"},{"t":17954,"text":"peripheral. If you're suggesting that once we deal with this amendment,"},{"t":17958,"text":"however that's dealt with, you have something else to offer, that's perfectly"},{"t":17962,"text":"in order. But I think for now we'll just deal with this."},{"t":17966,"text":"Yes, just hang on to that thought and we'll come back to you after we"},{"t":17969,"text":"deal with this amendment. Sure. Councillor Kerodion on this amendment. Thank you. Thanks, Mayor."},{"t":17972,"text":"I kind of support the amendment even though I do in"},{"t":17975,"text":"a sense support the tone of the hyperbolic statement."},{"t":17978,"text":"I'm thinking of this more as a formal submission"},{"t":17982,"text":"to a body, right? We've determined that the project of national"},{"t":17986,"text":"interest is an actual body that's receiving formal input from the City"},{"t":17990,"text":"of Victoria. So if this passes, I think it should be written in a professional"},{"t":17993,"text":"and factual tone. Thank you very much for that. Anyone else"},{"t":17997,"text":"on the amendment? Once again, also the amendment."},{"t":18001,"text":"So in favor of the amendment, which would be to remove the bolded sentence that"},{"t":18006,"text":"struck through, all those in favor? Councillor Dell,"},{"t":18008,"text":"Councillor— sorry, Councillor Kerodona,"},{"t":18011,"text":"Councillor Louton, myself, Councillor Coleman, Councillor Hammond."},{"t":18016,"text":"In opposition, Councillor Thompson,"},{"t":18019,"text":"Councillor Kim. Nope, sorry, I was,"},{"t":18023,"text":"I was in favor. My apologies, I didn't see. I'm going to try that again."},{"t":18026,"text":"All those in favor of removing that line: Councillor Dell,"},{"t":18030,"text":"Councillor Kerodona, Councillor Louton, myself."},{"t":18033,"text":"Councillor Colman, Councillor Hammond, Councillor Gardiner, and Councillor Thompson. In opposition,"},{"t":18038,"text":"Councillor Kim. Noting one in opposition,"},{"t":18042,"text":"so that line can be removed. Uh,"},{"t":18045,"text":"that was really all I had to say about that whole"},{"t":18050,"text":"document. I will clarify, should this be adopted, just exactly what the next steps are."},{"t":18053,"text":"But I will go now to Councillor Gardiner and then"},{"t":18057,"text":"to Councillor Thompson. Councillor Gardiner, do you have any comments? I have you on my"},{"t":18060,"text":"list. Nope. Yep. On the whole thing."},{"t":18068,"text":"The wording might be read many ways,"},{"t":18073,"text":"but what definitely won't be read many ways or listened to in many ways is"},{"t":18076,"text":"what has already been said. Blackmail."},{"t":18079,"text":"Hyperbole. Don't worry about what's in the words"},{"t":18082,"text":"here. If people elsewhere are listening, they have enough quotes from what"},{"t":18086,"text":"was said today. So I will not be supporting this."},{"t":18090,"text":"It is— it's just— it's the wording,"},{"t":18093,"text":"the insults. It's just too much. Thank you."},{"t":18097,"text":"Councillor Thompson, you had a further amendment, I believe,"},{"t":18101,"text":"or question. I'm not sure if it's an amendment. I'll ask a question of"},{"t":18105,"text":"you, Mayor, and then I guess we'll see what happens."},{"t":18109,"text":"Is the wording— I think you have said that the wording is pretty"},{"t":18114,"text":"factual. Right now, and so maybe we're comfortable with the wording."},{"t":18118,"text":"In your opinion, is the wording now,"},{"t":18120,"text":"um, going to be the best wording we can have to achieve the outcome,"},{"t":18125,"text":"um, or can it be improved? Well, that's— you're"},{"t":18129,"text":"clearly— and I'm not asking— yeah, you're asking my opinion. I'm sorry."},{"t":18133,"text":"Yeah, and I'm asking for your opinion, but I'm not asking to rewrite it"},{"t":18137,"text":"on the spot. No. So if I understood you, the, uh,"},{"t":18141,"text":"If I understand your intent, you're inquiring whether or not strategically"},{"t":18145,"text":"this is the best way to put forward this position. It would strategically be my"},{"t":18148,"text":"advice to actually reverse the order of this motion so"},{"t":18153,"text":"that what is seen as number 2, which is request the mayor provide a submission"},{"t":18157,"text":"within the same vein to the project of national interest consultation process,"},{"t":18161,"text":"actually be the first task, further really to Mr."},{"t":18165,"text":"Johnson's earlier comments because the way this is currently"},{"t":18168,"text":"written, the way I would interpret it is this statement word for word is"},{"t":18172,"text":"published and then some submission of some kind is"},{"t":18176,"text":"sent in through the process. I think it would be more strategic to"},{"t":18180,"text":"actually start with request the mayor provide a submission with"},{"t":18184,"text":"the following— reflecting the following intent"},{"t":18190,"text":"to the project of national interest, et cetera, et cetera. And that then requires"},{"t":18194,"text":"that letter, that submission rather, to reflect all of these points."},{"t":18198,"text":"So let me be clear, not to paraphrase them, not to water them down,"},{"t":18202,"text":"not to interpret them, but to include them in a way"},{"t":18206,"text":"which seems more like a strategic document. And that that document"},{"t":18210,"text":"then would be what is, quote, published. I think that's"},{"t":18214,"text":"reflective a little bit of what Mr. Johnston was assuming would be a more usual"},{"t":18217,"text":"format. You can either pass"},{"t":18221,"text":"this the way it is or decline this the way it is and then alter"},{"t":18226,"text":"slightly number 2 to be able to allow a little latitude for the"},{"t":18230,"text":"mayor to provide the submission, or you can just flip the 2 clauses,"},{"t":18235,"text":"amend the second one very slightly, and let it go with that."},{"t":18239,"text":"Or you can defeat the whole thing if that's the inclination of the council."},{"t":18243,"text":"So that would be my opinion."},{"t":18250,"text":"Thank you. Then, um, I'll, uh, since I'm not"},{"t":18254,"text":"in the room, I'm gonna rely on you, Mayor. I do want to"},{"t":18258,"text":"achieve the outcome, and so your"},{"t":18261,"text":"preferred course of action, which I think is to flip the wording around,"},{"t":18266,"text":"um, would be what I would move, but I would ask"},{"t":18270,"text":"that you do me the kindness of wording that motion for me because"},{"t":18274,"text":"I have a tiny little screen here that I'm trying to read this on."},{"t":18277,"text":"You do. And I hope you're somewhere actually pleasant as well."},{"t":18281,"text":"All right. On behalf of Councillor Thomson, which is unusual,"},{"t":18285,"text":"staff, work with me on this. Take what's in number 2 and make"},{"t":18289,"text":"it number 1."},{"t":18292,"text":"Let's start with that."},{"t":18305,"text":"Now in number 1, let's adjust the language ever so slightly and say,"},{"t":18310,"text":"request the mayor provide a submission including the"},{"t":18313,"text":"following points,"},{"t":18319,"text":"and then deleting within the same frame."},{"t":18324,"text":"And then leave in to the project of national interest consultation process."},{"t":18328,"text":"And then in number 2, to adjust that,"},{"t":18333,"text":"that council requested that council issue"},{"t":18338,"text":"the mayor's— issue the mayor's submission,"},{"t":18343,"text":"publicly issue the mayor's submission."},{"t":18351,"text":"Publicly issue the mayor's submission."},{"t":18356,"text":"And take what's"},{"t":18360,"text":"after submission."},{"t":18366,"text":"Delete the following public statement."},{"t":18371,"text":"So put a strike through that. And take the rest of that. Sentence and make"},{"t":18375,"text":"it a new separate line."},{"t":18381,"text":"I'm just going to read this through because we're doing this on the fly."},{"t":18385,"text":"OK. So now take that— what's now the third line that's not yet"},{"t":18388,"text":"bolded, OK, opposing the construction. So now take"},{"t":18393,"text":"all of that whole line, clip it,"},{"t":18397,"text":"and put it after the word submission in number 1."},{"t":18404,"text":"And you'll see why in a minute."},{"t":18409,"text":"All right, now let's just read that. So the council requests the mayor"},{"t":18413,"text":"provide a submission opposing the construction of a new West Coast pipeline"},{"t":18416,"text":"as well as its designation as a project of national interest, including the"},{"t":18421,"text":"following points. So you can take out the number 1 in front of including and"},{"t":18423,"text":"make number 1 up there, right? There you go. Pull that up into the same"},{"t":18427,"text":"sentence. Pull it up into the same first sentence."},{"t":18432,"text":"Right? And then put \"including\" after \"project of national interest.\" There's"},{"t":18439,"text":"a comma in there, I think. Very good."},{"t":18444,"text":"And then number 2 is publicly issue the mayor's submission."},{"t":18449,"text":"And then— Actually, number 2 can"},{"t":18452,"text":"go at the end then, so we're flipping it. So cut number 2"},{"t":18458,"text":"and put it at the very end as a new— as a number 2,"},{"t":18460,"text":"right?"},{"t":18464,"text":"There you go."},{"t":18467,"text":"This is called drafting in groups on the fly."},{"t":18472,"text":"Mm-hmm. All right, now let's pull up the top and see if that makes sense."},{"t":18476,"text":"So the motion is that council request the mayor provide a submission opposing"},{"t":18480,"text":"the construction of a new West Coast Pipeline as well as his designation"},{"t":18484,"text":"as a project of national interest, including the following points."},{"t":18489,"text":"Uh, to the project— oh, that's bad grammar, isn't it?"},{"t":18493,"text":"Then you should take to the project of national interest consultation project process"},{"t":18497,"text":"and put that after submission in the first line."},{"t":18501,"text":"I can't possibly allow something that's grammatically incorrect to go forward."},{"t":18505,"text":"My late mother would roll in her grave. So to the project of national interest"},{"t":18509,"text":"consultation project, that very end of that sentence."},{"t":18513,"text":"Keep going, keep going to after within the same vein."},{"t":18518,"text":"There you go. Clip all the rest of that sentence and stick it"},{"t":18521,"text":"under the word submit— after the word submission on the first line."},{"t":18528,"text":"Doesn't change the substance, it just makes it grammatically proper."},{"t":18532,"text":"There you go. Request the mayor provide a submission to the Project of National"},{"t":18536,"text":"Interest consultation process opposing the construction"},{"t":18540,"text":"of a new West Coast pipeline, as well as its designation as a Project"},{"t":18543,"text":"of National Interest, including the following points. And then you can delete the"},{"t":18548,"text":"rest of that sentence, right? And then all the rest of the points are the"},{"t":18551,"text":"same. They're all the same. None of them are changed except that one we deleted"},{"t":18555,"text":"with an amendment. And then when you go to the very bottom,"},{"t":18559,"text":"number 2 is publicly issue the mayor's submission,"},{"t":18563,"text":"which means whatever gets written like that gets posted as a public statement."},{"t":18568,"text":"So that makes sense grammatically and structurally, and I think it actually reflects"},{"t":18573,"text":"the intent of Councillor Thomson's commentary. So I'm going to move"},{"t":18577,"text":"that as a multip— amendment."},{"t":18580,"text":"Councillor Thomson, will you second that? Yes,"},{"t":18584,"text":"but I have a question. Is the black"},{"t":18588,"text":"wording underneath paragraph number 1 opposing the construction?"},{"t":18592,"text":"Is that struck out? It is because it's already in the first sentence."},{"t":18596,"text":"We struck it out there because all of it is in the first sentence"},{"t":18600,"text":"now. Sorry, that's just me not being able to see the tiny screen."},{"t":18603,"text":"So to answer your question, I'm— Yeah, I'm not in a pleasant"},{"t":18608,"text":"place while I do this. Thank you very much for that."},{"t":18612,"text":"Yeah. Okay. So I've seconded that."},{"t":18615,"text":"Very good. So I just speaking because I'm sitting in"},{"t":18619,"text":"the position of the person moving this complex amendment, I do so"},{"t":18623,"text":"as I believe it reflects the commentary of Councillor"},{"t":18627,"text":"Thompson, at least, and perhaps others. And I think that from what I"},{"t":18631,"text":"understand, I understand from Councillor Thomson's commentary that this does reflect that content,"},{"t":18635,"text":"which, as an aside, I agree with. Councillor Thomson,"},{"t":18639,"text":"do you have anything to add to the amendment?"},{"t":18642,"text":"No, I would— well, yes, I guess so. I would thank you, Mayor,"},{"t":18645,"text":"for your patience in rewording that. And just"},{"t":18650,"text":"to, just to say that I think that this would"},{"t":18654,"text":"be more likely to achieve the outcome that I, that I want."},{"t":18658,"text":"And that I suspect that a lot of people campaigning on this want,"},{"t":18662,"text":"which is to not have the pipeline approved. I mean, there may be other"},{"t":18667,"text":"folks in that campaign who want other objectives, other political objectives or whatever."},{"t":18671,"text":"I just don't want to see that pipeline approved."},{"t":18675,"text":"And I think that this is a more likely wording for that outcome. Thank you."},{"t":18678,"text":"Thank you very much. On the amendment to start, are there any"},{"t":18682,"text":"other comments? Councillor Kim. Yeah,"},{"t":18685,"text":"thank you to my colleagues,"},{"t":18690,"text":"yourself included, Mayor, for basically tightening this"},{"t":18693,"text":"up and making a sequence that makes more sense."},{"t":18698,"text":"I just appreciate the collaboration on this and I can support this. Thanks."},{"t":18702,"text":"Thank you very much. Anyone else on the amendment to start?"},{"t":18707,"text":"Okay, I'm not seeing anyone else on the amendment. So on the amendment for"},{"t":18712,"text":"first, just the amendment, and that is all of those changes that we've illustrated there"},{"t":18715,"text":"with the able help of our staff. All those in favor of the amendment?"},{"t":18719,"text":"Councillor Kerodona, Councillor Louton, Councillor Kim,"},{"t":18722,"text":"Councillor Thompson, myself, Councillor Hammond. In opposition"},{"t":18726,"text":"to the amendment? Councillor Coleman and Councillor Gardiner, noting that"},{"t":18730,"text":"Councillor Dell has stepped out. I believe the amendment is adopted"},{"t":18733,"text":"with 2 in opposition. I believe I'm looking Staff, that's correct?"},{"t":18737,"text":"Yes, very good. So now we'll just give staff just a moment to"},{"t":18741,"text":"remove all of the struck-through language just so we understand"},{"t":18745,"text":"exactly what we're voting on now, finally."},{"t":18749,"text":"Just give them a second to do that. And then there's some stuff, I think,"},{"t":18751,"text":"at the bottom as well."},{"t":18756,"text":"Right."},{"t":18766,"text":"Very good. Just make a space in there maybe so we know that number"},{"t":18770,"text":"2 is actually separate. Very good. All right. So I think that now"},{"t":18774,"text":"appears to be our final motion that"},{"t":18778,"text":"originally was put forward by Councillor Kim and seconded by Councillor"},{"t":18783,"text":"Carradonna. Any final comments on the motion as amended?"},{"t":18788,"text":"Councillor Gardner. To the public,"},{"t":18792,"text":"we have 12 staff members sitting around this room, and we have many more that"},{"t":18796,"text":"are online. We've just spent a little over $2,000 of your taxpayer"},{"t":18800,"text":"money, and more will be spent to complete the task before us"},{"t":18803,"text":"today. So this council is spending so much time that"},{"t":18807,"text":"we're going to solve all the problems, but not the problems of our city."},{"t":18811,"text":"We've got residential tax rates doubling every 6 years, out of out-of-control spending,"},{"t":18815,"text":"disorder, and drugs on our streets, but we're going to go solve the"},{"t":18819,"text":"wildfires in all of the world. This is really,"},{"t":18822,"text":"really a problem with this council."},{"t":18826,"text":"We keep entering this. I hope someone out there who's keeping track"},{"t":18830,"text":"of everything can see how many advocacy motions have"},{"t":18834,"text":"been made by this council over the last 3 and a half years. And you"},{"t":18837,"text":"just wonder. It used to be that we used to say it's going into the"},{"t":18841,"text":"round little cycling or filing cabinet, which means a"},{"t":18845,"text":"garbage can. Because when these things go off, we will get very often a"},{"t":18849,"text":"nice little note from somebody. But the impact, I think,"},{"t":18853,"text":"could be very disastrous in this case, as has been mentioned by Councilor"},{"t":18857,"text":"Col— uh, Colman. So I will not be voting for this motion."},{"t":18862,"text":"Thank you very much. Anybody else?"},{"t":18865,"text":"Not seeing any other comments. All those in favor of the motion as amended?"},{"t":18870,"text":"Councillor Cardona, Councillor Lauten, Councillor Kim, Councillor Thomson,"},{"t":18874,"text":"myself, Councillor Hammond. In opposition?"},{"t":18878,"text":"Councillor Coleman, Councillor Gardiner, noting as well again that Councillor Dell is absent"},{"t":18882,"text":"today, or just at this moment. That deals with item that became"},{"t":18886,"text":"the new item J, and so that takes us on to item K."},{"t":18889,"text":"This would be the closed meeting if there was required And none is required at"},{"t":18892,"text":"committee today. And so, just before I look to a"},{"t":18896,"text":"motion to adjourn, I'm just going to briefly comment"},{"t":18900,"text":"that there are 5"},{"t":18903,"text":"meetings that council has, 5 days of meetings now before the election."},{"t":18908,"text":"I'm going to politely urge my colleagues to resist"},{"t":18912,"text":"the natural inclination to pontificate in what"},{"t":18916,"text":"are clearly campaign issues during business meetings?"},{"t":18919,"text":"I can only ask that question, but I think it's important to do so on"},{"t":18923,"text":"the record. With that, I would look for a motion to adjourn. Thank you,"},{"t":18927,"text":"Councilor Colvin. Seconded by Councilor Louton. All those in favor?"},{"t":18931,"text":"Anyone opposed? That is unanimous. We'll take a brief break. Let's call"},{"t":18934,"text":"it 2:30. That'll give us 12 minutes before we go to our daytime council"},{"t":18958,"text":"All those in favor of actually reconsidering adjournment?"},{"t":18963,"text":"There's a reason. Those in favor? Thank you very much."},{"t":18966,"text":"And that is because I had mentioned to Ms. Rother that this particular motion,"},{"t":18969,"text":"the one that we just passed here after amending it, because it is a late"},{"t":18973,"text":"item, it does have time sensitivity. If we wait for the usual 2 weeks for"},{"t":18976,"text":"us to consider it finally, it will be beyond the deadline for"},{"t":18980,"text":"the submission. And so it should have included in"},{"t":18984,"text":"the motion itself a recommendation for same-day consideration."},{"t":18988,"text":"However, I overlooked that and trying to make that amendment, and so I"},{"t":18992,"text":"will move that amendment now that this matter be forwarded to"},{"t":18996,"text":"to the daytime council meeting for same-day consideration. Councillor Kim,"},{"t":18999,"text":"would you like to second that, please? Thank you. Any discussion"},{"t":19003,"text":"on the motion to provide same-day consideration?"},{"t":19007,"text":"Seeing none, all those in favour? Anyone opposed?"},{"t":19011,"text":"Same-day considers. That is unanimous. Thank you very much. Thank you, Ms. Rother, for reminding"},{"t":19015,"text":"me of that. That would have been foolhardy for us to have gone through all"},{"t":19019,"text":"of that work and then not be able to actually execute it. There you go."},{"t":19021,"text":"With that then, I would then ask again for a motion to adjourn. Thank you,"},{"t":19024,"text":"Councillor Coleman. Second, Councillor Lauten. All those in favor?"},{"t":19027,"text":"Anyone opposed? That is unanimous. Again, let us resume at 2:30 when"},{"t":19031,"text":"we will begin our daytime council meeting."}],"words":37214,"fetchedAt":"2026-10-03T04:25:40.073Z"}