{"videoId":"https://video.isilive.ca/victoria/New%20Encoder_COTW_2026-06-18-12-02.mp4","source":"isilive_vtt","segments":[{"t":3,"text":"Good morning everyone, excuse me and welcome to the June"},{"t":7,"text":"18th Committee of the Whole Meeting of Victoria City Council."},{"t":10,"text":"Councillors Dell and Thompson are joining us online today and"},{"t":13,"text":"Councillor Cardona is unavailable. Today we have considered before consideration"},{"t":18,"text":"two sets of minutes, one land use matter and one"},{"t":22,"text":"staff report. Excuse me. But of course before we begin"},{"t":26,"text":"we always like to take a moment to ground ourselves"},{"t":29,"text":"and our considerations in an acknowledgement of respect and understanding"},{"t":34,"text":"of the generosity and commitment of the two nations on"},{"t":38,"text":"whose territories our city sits in its entirety. The Songhees"},{"t":42,"text":"Nation and the Kosoppsum Nation. Billa Kungan people have for"},{"t":46,"text":"generations taken care of these lands and the waters that"},{"t":50,"text":"surround them and done so with the idea that they"},{"t":54,"text":"are acknowledging and honouring those who came before them, but"},{"t":58,"text":"also dealing with the issues of the day while thinking"},{"t":61,"text":"ahead as many as seven generations to determine what actions"},{"t":65,"text":"need to be taken to ensure that all those generations"},{"t":67,"text":"through all that time have the ability to live as"},{"t":70,"text":"well as they are able. I think this is a"},{"t":73,"text":"great example for us to consider as to how we"},{"t":76,"text":"make our own decisions looking at the past, but considering"},{"t":79,"text":"the challenges of the current day, but also looking ahead"},{"t":83,"text":"for those folks who are coming later, so many generations"},{"t":86,"text":"away from us. We acknowledge always the remarkable opportunities that"},{"t":90,"text":"we have to join with the nations and work together."},{"t":93,"text":"And on the opportunities that we have just to get"},{"t":95,"text":"together, which we did earlier actually this week, when we"},{"t":98,"text":"enjoyed a joint meal with most nations and their councils"},{"t":103,"text":"and their staff, as it was with our council and"},{"t":105,"text":"staff, and what a remarkable evening indeed it was to"},{"t":108,"text":"be able to learn a bit more about one another"},{"t":110,"text":"as people. We always want to say thank you and"},{"t":114,"text":"to honour their work and to pay respect to their"},{"t":116,"text":"continuing generosity and working with us. And in so doing,"},{"t":119,"text":"we offer a simple thank you to them in their"},{"t":121,"text":"language, and that is to say, Hexkasivniquilia. His cassiam d'agility."},{"t":129,"text":"I do not have any remarks, particularly to add today,"},{"t":132,"text":"so we'll go right on to the rest of our"},{"t":133,"text":"gender, and that is Introduction Late Item. It's none of"},{"t":135,"text":"which I'm aware need to be added today. So we'll"},{"t":138,"text":"go first then to item D, and that is looking"},{"t":141,"text":"for a motion to approve the published agenda. Thanks, Councillor"},{"t":145,"text":"Gardner. Second by Councillor Coleman. Any discussion on the published"},{"t":149,"text":"agenda. Not seeing any. I will note for folks who"},{"t":153,"text":"are watching that I will glance more often at my"},{"t":155,"text":"iPad so that I could make sure that our councillors"},{"t":157,"text":"who are online have an opportunity to participate as they"},{"t":160,"text":"desire. But I've seen no discussion on the agenda as"},{"t":164,"text":"published, so all those in favor. Anyone opposed. That is"},{"t":168,"text":"unanimous. Thank you folks online for indicating. We do have"},{"t":172,"text":"a number of things to propose for the consent agenda."},{"t":175,"text":"Actually, just the minutes. So item F1, the minutes from"},{"t":178,"text":"the Committee of the Whole meeting held on May the"},{"t":179,"text":"7th, and F2, the minutes from the Committee with Whole"},{"t":182,"text":"Meeting held on May the 14th. Would anyone like to"},{"t":186,"text":"remove either of those items or add anything to the"},{"t":189,"text":"agenda. Seeing any indication of Councillor Gardner, did you want"},{"t":195,"text":"to add something? No? Oh, okay. You want to move"},{"t":198,"text":"the Concentrygender. Thank you Councillor Gardas moving the consent agenda,"},{"t":201,"text":"Seconder Councillor Coleman, all those in favor. Anybody opposed? That"},{"t":206,"text":"is unanimous. Thank you for that. And that would move"},{"t":209,"text":"us on usually to item F. This would be consideration"},{"t":212,"text":"of the minutes, but of course we just put both"},{"t":213,"text":"of those on the consent agenda, both items F1 and"},{"t":217,"text":"F2. Those will return to us at a future daytime"},{"t":220,"text":"council meeting for final consideration. With that then, we move"},{"t":225,"text":"on to our one land use matter today. This is"},{"t":227,"text":"item G1. This is a development permit with variances application"},{"t":231,"text":"for 2839 and 2845. Cedar Hill Road. I believe we"},{"t":236,"text":"do have a presentation from staff. So we'll let our"},{"t":240,"text":"staff get settled. And when you're ready, you can introduce"},{"t":242,"text":"yourselves to the public. And again, your presentation."},{"t":282,"text":"Alright. Good morning, Mayor Alto and members of Council. My"},{"t":291,"text":"name is Kasha Yanata Bysofska. Planner with Development Services. For"},{"t":296,"text":"short, you may call me Miss J. B. Today I"},{"t":299,"text":"will be presenting on a development application for 2839 and"},{"t":303,"text":"2845 Cedar Hale Road. The proposal is to consolidate two"},{"t":310,"text":"lots into one and construct 12 new Strada townhouse units"},{"t":314,"text":"within three separate buildings. The properties are located in the"},{"t":320,"text":"Oakland's neighbourhood on Cedar Hill Road between Edgeware Road and"},{"t":324,"text":"the West Hall Connector Pathway. The area is characterized by"},{"t":328,"text":"a mix of single family and two - family dwellings."},{"t":332,"text":"Small - scale apartment buildings. And neighbourhood commercial uses. Each"},{"t":339,"text":"subject property currently contains a single - family dwelling, an"},{"t":344,"text":"accessory structure, as you can see on the images on"},{"t":346,"text":"the slide. As well, here are some photos of the"},{"t":350,"text":"neighbouring properties and the existing condition of the West Hall"},{"t":353,"text":"Connector Pathway. Fronting Cedar Hill Road. For better context. Before"},{"t":361,"text":"discussing the proposal in detail, I'll briefly explain why it's"},{"t":365,"text":"before Council today. On October 2nd, 2025, Council adopted the"},{"t":371,"text":"10 - year OCP update, the property is now zoned"},{"t":375,"text":"GRD1 under which the proposal meets the use and density"},{"t":380,"text":"requirements. As a result, the originally submitted rezoning application is"},{"t":385,"text":"no longer required. A development permit is still needed. And"},{"t":391,"text":"in accordance with our land use procedures bylaw, would be"},{"t":395,"text":"delegated to staff for approval if consistent with the guidelines."},{"t":399,"text":"However, in its current form, the proposal does not align"},{"t":404,"text":"with the design guidelines. Today's focus is on the proposal's"},{"t":408,"text":"response to the development permit area objectives, design guidelines, and"},{"t":414,"text":"requested variances. The subject properties are designated as"},{"t":424,"text":"residential fabric in the OCP, which envisions low rise and"},{"t":429,"text":"ground - orientated residential infill with all forms providing adequate"},{"t":434,"text":"open space, generally located at the rear of lots. Although"},{"t":439,"text":"the proposed townhouse form is consistent with the envisioned residential"},{"t":443,"text":"typology and scale of development, it is not consistent with"},{"t":447,"text":"the broader envisioned pattern of development for the city, particularly"},{"t":452,"text":"the perimeter block form of development. This illustration reflects a"},{"t":459,"text":"key objective of development permit area one. Reinforcing the perimeter"},{"t":464,"text":"block urban form. In Victoria, this pattern places buildings near"},{"t":469,"text":"the front property line with landscaped rear yard areas and"},{"t":473,"text":"supporting pedestrian - friendly streets. Zoning regulations and design guidelines"},{"t":479,"text":"aimed to maintain this form as density increases throughout the"},{"t":483,"text":"city. Overall, the proposal as currently designed does not align"},{"t":488,"text":"with this key of. Here is the proposed site plan."},{"t":495,"text":"The proposal includes 12 side - by - side, three"},{"t":499,"text":"- story strata units across three buildings. Along with 13"},{"t":503,"text":"parking stalls accessed via an internal drive aisle. The design"},{"t":507,"text":"guidelines call for front to back building orientation with primary"},{"t":512,"text":"facades and patios facing the street. With generous rear -"},{"t":516,"text":"yard areas for townhouse configurations. Building block one meets this"},{"t":522,"text":"with entrances along cedar hillroad. Building block three has rear"},{"t":528,"text":"access from the West Hall connector pathway, but buildings two"},{"t":532,"text":"and three primarily rely on the internal driveway, which doesn't"},{"t":536,"text":"align with the guidelines. Building block two located in the"},{"t":540,"text":"rear, presents the greatest concern. It's citing, massing, and inward"},{"t":546,"text":"- facing units do not meet the OCP perimeter block"},{"t":550,"text":"objectives. Should Council decide to advance the proposal, multiple variances"},{"t":557,"text":"would be required. Which are increasing lock coverage, decreasing the"},{"t":562,"text":"landscaped area. Reducing the front flanking side and rear yard"},{"t":567,"text":"setbacks. And reducing short - term bike parking. The zoning"},{"t":573,"text":"bylaw setbacks were established to support the design guideline objectives,"},{"t":578,"text":"including providing contiguous central green space and adequate common amenity"},{"t":583,"text":"areas. Reducing the step back's undermines these goals by limiting"},{"t":587,"text":"the depth and continuity of the shared interior space and"},{"t":591,"text":"reducing the ability to have a well - defined central"},{"t":594,"text":"green space. Combined with increased lot coverage and a reduction"},{"t":598,"text":"to the contiguous landscape area. These variances are not supported"},{"t":603,"text":"by staff. Here are the floor plans for the development."},{"t":610,"text":"Building block one consists of four three - bedroom units."},{"t":614,"text":"Housing mix is guided by the zoning bylaw 2018, the"},{"t":618,"text":"rezoning and development policy and advisory design guidelines for family"},{"t":622,"text":"- friendly homes. The proposal exceeds the requirements with all"},{"t":626,"text":"12 units provided as three bedroom surpassing the 30 percent"},{"t":631,"text":"minimum requirement. Building blocks two and three consist of four"},{"t":637,"text":"three bedroom units per building. To support the front -"},{"t":642,"text":"to - back perimeter block urban form, zoning regulations permits"},{"t":646,"text":"of reduced side - yard setback for non - primary"},{"t":649,"text":"building facades. In this case, the floor plans for building"},{"t":654,"text":"blocks two and three have been designed with the primary"},{"t":657,"text":"living and dining room windows of the main floor -"},{"t":661,"text":"orientated towards the front and side yard. Which triggers the"},{"t":664,"text":"requirement for larger setbacks. Turning now to the elevations, you"},{"t":672,"text":"can see how the buildings present to the street frontages"},{"t":676,"text":"and the interior of the site. All three buildings use"},{"t":679,"text":"consistent materials, including blue and green fibre cement lap siding,"},{"t":685,"text":"white cement, shingle siding, grey roof shingles, and black balcony"},{"t":689,"text":"and patio railings. The design guidelines encourage design of building"},{"t":694,"text":"facades to support pedestrian activity and eyes on the street"},{"t":698,"text":"by integrating and orientating entryways, windows, patios and balconies to"},{"t":703,"text":"overlook sidewalks, walkways, parks, and other open outdoor spaces."},{"t":714,"text":"The guidelines encourage ground floor units to have individual entrances"},{"t":719,"text":"orientated towards and directly connected to public sidewalks or open"},{"t":724,"text":"spaces. In building block two, however, the front doors face"},{"t":729,"text":"the internal drive aisle with no direct connection to cedar"},{"t":733,"text":"- hill road or the West Hall Connector Pathway. Building"},{"t":740,"text":"block three provides secondary access to the West Hall connector"},{"t":743,"text":"pathway. However, primary entrances face the internal drive aisle, which"},{"t":748,"text":"conflicts with the design guidelines. Staff find that locating the"},{"t":752,"text":"front door entrances within the drive aisles is not consistent"},{"t":756,"text":"with the guidelines, which prioritizes direct connection to public streets"},{"t":761,"text":"and open spaces. The rendering shown here were submitted as"},{"t":768,"text":"part of the applicant's presentation to the advisory design panel"},{"t":772,"text":"while the proposal was subject to a rezoning application. These"},{"t":776,"text":"renderings depict a small open space between building block one"},{"t":780,"text":"and two. Consisting of a lawn, planted area with two,"},{"t":785,"text":"gary oak replacement trees, and an area for seating in"},{"t":788,"text":"play. However, the space is limited and overly hardscaped. Increasing"},{"t":794,"text":"the contiguous landscaped area, would create a more meaningful amenity"},{"t":798,"text":"space and better align with the guidelines. This slide presents"},{"t":806,"text":"the street elevations emphasizing the public - facing buildings and"},{"t":810,"text":"their relationship to the streetscapes and underscoring the role of"},{"t":814,"text":"street - facing units and reinforcing active frontages and supporting"},{"t":819,"text":"a lively streetscape. 23 trees currently exist on - site."},{"t":826,"text":"Of these 14 trees are Bylaw protected on the subject"},{"t":829,"text":"lots and require removal as they are within the buildable"},{"t":833,"text":"area or near where excavation will occur. The landscape plan"},{"t":837,"text":"shows the proposal to plant 17 new trees and the"},{"t":841,"text":"applicant is requesting cash and lieu for the remaining six"},{"t":844,"text":"trees that cannot be accommodated on site. The guideline support"},{"t":850,"text":"urban forest growth heat reduction and on - site stormwater"},{"t":853,"text":"management. Although the proposal meets the minimum tree requirements, expanding"},{"t":859,"text":"the contiguous landscape area, would enable more tree planting. In"},{"t":867,"text":"conclusion. The proposal is inconsistent with the objectives and design"},{"t":872,"text":"guidelines of development permit area one general urban design, as"},{"t":877,"text":"it does not provide an adequate, usable outdoor amenity space,"},{"t":881,"text":"or preserve rear yard areas to support a healthy urban"},{"t":885,"text":"forest in accordance with the perimeter block urban form. Furthermore,"},{"t":890,"text":"the orientation and design of building block two at the"},{"t":894,"text":"rear of the site is inconsistent with this development form,"},{"t":898,"text":"limiting its ability to contribute meaningfully to landscaped amenity spaces"},{"t":903,"text":"and overall psychoon. The requested variances to lock coverage, single"},{"t":908,"text":"landscaped area, and building setbacks are not supportable. As the"},{"t":913,"text":"overall scale is excessive for the site. It should also"},{"t":917,"text":"be noted that although the design includes an infiltration chamber"},{"t":921,"text":"system to manage water runoff, it does not fully incorporate"},{"t":925,"text":"key, Valcry Creek blueprint principles, such as minimizing building footprints"},{"t":931,"text":"and site impervious areas, conserving green space, and the co"},{"t":936,"text":"- benefits that come from naturalized areas. The applicant has"},{"t":940,"text":"stated that they are unwilling to make further revisions to"},{"t":943,"text":"the site layout to address the outstanding inconsistencies with the"},{"t":948,"text":"design guidelines. Therefore, the staff recommendation is to decline the"},{"t":953,"text":"application. However, should Council wish to advance the proposal to"},{"t":959,"text":"alternative motions have been provided to advance the application subject"},{"t":963,"text":"to satisfying key design guidelines and applicable zoning regulations, or"},{"t":968,"text":"to advance the application as currently designed. Thank you, and"},{"t":972,"text":"we welcome any questions. Thank you very much. As noted,"},{"t":976,"text":"we'll go first to questions before we consider any of"},{"t":978,"text":"the three options. Questions for anyone. Councillor Gardner. Thank you,"},{"t":987,"text":"and thank you, Ms. J. B. for the presentation. Just"},{"t":991,"text":"a couple of quick questions, and I realise this proposal,"},{"t":995,"text":"the development was caught between the OCP and the OCP"},{"t":999,"text":"2050. Now there seems to be contradictory statements within the"},{"t":1003,"text":"reports about the future of the pedestrian pathway. And are"},{"t":1006,"text":"there to be lights and has a design been approved"},{"t":1010,"text":"upon. Or will there not be lights. J. Through the"},{"t":1017,"text":"mayor, I would actually like to request our transportation staff"},{"t":1021,"text":"to assist with answering that question, please. I think this"},{"t":1026,"text":"is Mr. Paul. Thank you for the question through the"},{"t":1031,"text":"mayor. We do have our planners on the call right"},{"t":1035,"text":"now that are able to take that question. And which"},{"t":1039,"text":"one would that be."},{"t":1051,"text":"Miss Crowder will be joining the call. There you go."},{"t":1057,"text":"Well. Thank you, Ron McCowder Transportation Planner for this file."},{"t":1061,"text":"I can confirm through the mayor that Lighting Policy and"},{"t":1065,"text":"an assessment, um, for future lighting along this pathway is"},{"t":1068,"text":"confirmed. It is with sort. Okay. And so that's settled."},{"t":1075,"text":"Thank you. To confirm, looking at the table that was"},{"t":1080,"text":"given to as the data table. The density salt is"},{"t":1083,"text":"considerably lower than the current zone permits, is that correct?"},{"t":1088,"text":"Through the mayor, yes, that is correct. Yes. And while"},{"t":1092,"text":"the scale is considered, you've just said too much for"},{"t":1095,"text":"the sight. The height is also one metre below the"},{"t":1098,"text":"ceiling that is permitted, is that correct? Should be. Yes,"},{"t":1102,"text":"that is correct. The height permitted is 12 metres and"},{"t":1105,"text":"the tallest building stance at 10. 95 metres, which is"},{"t":1108,"text":"building block two. Thank you. I walked it yesterday and"},{"t":1111,"text":"I appreciate the drawing showing the elevation difference. That's all"},{"t":1114,"text":"for my questions right now, Mayor. I may have more"},{"t":1116,"text":"later. Very good. Councillor Louis? Yes, good morning. And through"},{"t":1121,"text":"you, Mayor. I just, I just have a quick question"},{"t":1122,"text":"about, um, the hardscaped and the issues around Stormwater runoff."},{"t":1129,"text":"I'm wondering if there is any kind of way to"},{"t":1136,"text":"mitigate that using permeable pavers or some kind of permeable"},{"t":1141,"text":"aspect to the hardscape. Or is it all asphalt. Through"},{"t":1150,"text":"the mayor, my understanding is that currently the proposal has"},{"t":1154,"text":"a mix of both some permeable pavers. However, the driveway"},{"t":1158,"text":"is proposed to be asphalt, but it does have that"},{"t":1162,"text":"infiltration chamber system below. However, I believe that still, it"},{"t":1168,"text":"is hardscaped. And so, um, like we have said, it"},{"t":1172,"text":"hasn't met some of the intents of the Balker Creek"},{"t":1175,"text":"blueprint. So we would be hoping to see more stormwater"},{"t":1179,"text":"management principles in the design. Okay. So, so it's, it's,"},{"t":1184,"text":"and it's also more about the green space than it"},{"t":1186,"text":"is about, um, stormwater runoff. I guess what my question"},{"t":1190,"text":"is, is there a way to improve that using more"},{"t":1195,"text":"permeable pavers? Or is that all been explored. Ms. Jb."},{"t":1208,"text":"Through the mayor, Charlotte Wayne, manager of neighbourhood development planning."},{"t":1212,"text":"I think just Artemis, geno to Bizzowska's comments, as noted"},{"t":1219,"text":"in the staff report, the proposal is technically meeting the"},{"t":1222,"text":"Stormwater objectives through the infiltration tank. But it is best"},{"t":1226,"text":"practice, um, to increase green space and reduce the amount"},{"t":1229,"text":"of hardscape, um, just to reduce the flows throughout the"},{"t":1233,"text":"site. Okay. Yeah. Thank you for that. So it's really"},{"t":1235,"text":"about the, about the green space. Okay, that's it for"},{"t":1238,"text":"me, Mayor. Thank you. Yeah. Any other questions? Let me"},{"t":1241,"text":"just check online. Let's see any questions online. Oh, Councillor"},{"t":1246,"text":"Hammond, go ahead. Thanks, Mayor. Could you please say your"},{"t":1252,"text":"last name again? Through the mayor, my last name is"},{"t":1257,"text":"Yanata Bzofska. One more time. Uh, Yanata. Bhazowska."},{"t":1266,"text":"Baza. Okay. I always like the idea of at least"},{"t":1269,"text":"trying people's names. Just because I have such an easy"},{"t":1272,"text":"English names. Okay. Cause you're a woman. Ah, okay. Thank"},{"t":1280,"text":"you. So when I was looking, um, this over, at"},{"t":1284,"text":"first I thought, wow, that's a lot. And, and then"},{"t":1289,"text":"I was surprised there was no blowback, um, within the"},{"t":1293,"text":"community. But if you look at the heights, it's okay."},{"t":1295,"text":"So when you talked about the alternate, first you said"},{"t":1298,"text":"that the applicant was not willing to go any further."},{"t":1301,"text":"And yet you said there's two alternates. And is it"},{"t":1305,"text":"option two where you indicate the changes that you want"},{"t":1309,"text":"to make or is that really just approve as proposed."},{"t":1315,"text":"Through the mayor. So option two for your review and"},{"t":1319,"text":"consideration only lists technical changes to be made to the"},{"t":1323,"text":"plans. Okay. Um, it does not list a comprehensive list"},{"t":1328,"text":"of what staff would want to see. That is meant"},{"t":1330,"text":"to be for option one if you would like to"},{"t":1332,"text":"bring it back to staff that we would work with"},{"t":1334,"text":"the applicant to have those changes made to the design."},{"t":1338,"text":"Okay. Thanks. So then it's option one that you were"},{"t":1340,"text":"making reference to, um, and I guess when I didn't"},{"t":1343,"text":"see a list, you're just saying this little short sentence"},{"t":1347,"text":"is all that you'd need. So if the applicant is"},{"t":1350,"text":"not willing to go any further, what chance of success"},{"t":1356,"text":"are you finding under option one. Of getting the things?"},{"t":1360,"text":"In other words, is it, is it mild enough so"},{"t":1363,"text":"to speak or is it, um, lesser enough that you"},{"t":1366,"text":"think you can still get these changes or really they"},{"t":1369,"text":"be coming back and saying, no, not at all. Through"},{"t":1373,"text":"the mayor, I will, I will answer that, um, broadly,"},{"t":1377,"text":"but I may ask for my manager to assist as"},{"t":1379,"text":"well. But my understanding with option one is also that"},{"t":1383,"text":"it is an opportunity for the file to come back"},{"t":1386,"text":"and become delegated to staff to approve. So I believe"},{"t":1390,"text":"it's also an option for Council. So if you'd wish"},{"t":1393,"text":"to have it come back to us. And then we"},{"t":1395,"text":"would work through it becoming more eligible for that delegation."},{"t":1402,"text":"Okay. Thank you for that. Thank you through the mayor."},{"t":1405,"text":"Just one more. Just to elaborate briefly if I may."},{"t":1411,"text":"The staff have worked with the applicant extensively to try"},{"t":1414,"text":"and keep this on the delegated path. And that's essentially"},{"t":1417,"text":"why it's before council today, um, with the recommendation for"},{"t":1420,"text":"decline, because, um, those conversations have been extensive in reaching"},{"t":1426,"text":"today. Um, but it's always, uh, the option for the"},{"t":1432,"text":"applicant to hear what Council has to say about the"},{"t":1434,"text":"application. And if Council does choose, uh, to do option"},{"t":1438,"text":"one, um, and the applicant isn't able to make any"},{"t":1441,"text":"further changes. It would come back to council, uh, but"},{"t":1445,"text":"it is always stuff's hope to, uh, bring the application"},{"t":1450,"text":"in alignment with the design guidelines and stay on the"},{"t":1452,"text":"delegated path. Thank you. Connor. Thank you. And through the"},{"t":1457,"text":"mayor, call me simple because I know you went through"},{"t":1460,"text":"it and I'm trying to take some notes and I'd"},{"t":1461,"text":"read the report. But could you really summarize if it"},{"t":1464,"text":"was option one? Could you summarize what changes you would"},{"t":1471,"text":"need in order to say, yeah, we can, we can"},{"t":1474,"text":"go with this. We would like to take that question."},{"t":1480,"text":"Through the mayor. What has remained outstanding issues with the"},{"t":1484,"text":"design is how block two is currently presented. The rear"},{"t":1489,"text":"yard setbacks, the massing, the footprint. There are multiple challenges"},{"t":1496,"text":"with how it is currently designed. And we would like"},{"t":1498,"text":"to work with the applicant to, I think, shift how"},{"t":1502,"text":"it is proposed. As well, we'd want to see changes"},{"t":1506,"text":"with the internal driveway configuration, how the front doors present,"},{"t":1512,"text":"creating connectibility for block two so that it is accessed"},{"t":1516,"text":"to one of the street frontages. We would also want"},{"t":1519,"text":"to see an increase in the single landscaped area. Less"},{"t":1524,"text":"parking, less hardscape. So those are kind of some of"},{"t":1529,"text":"the main design issues that remain outstanding that we would"},{"t":1535,"text":"be looking to work with the applicant to address. That's"},{"t":1539,"text":"round. Thank you. And, and from a standpoint of, if"},{"t":1547,"text":"we're just talking about block two, does that mean that"},{"t":1550,"text":"it would have to be substantially reduced or would it"},{"t":1552,"text":"go from forward to three? Or what would you even,"},{"t":1558,"text":"well, I mean, the staff have this idea that it's"},{"t":1561,"text":"got to be changed. So what would that do to"},{"t":1563,"text":"block two? Sween. Thank you, Suther Mowle attempt answer this."},{"t":1569,"text":"And then I refer to my colleagues if then further"},{"t":1570,"text":"to add. But I think ultimately it's up to the"},{"t":1573,"text":"applicant to determine, um, how to, how to meet the"},{"t":1577,"text":"design guidelines staff have made, um, quite a number of"},{"t":1580,"text":"suggestions about, um, what the minimum, uh, revisions would need"},{"t":1585,"text":"to be in order to tip the scales into a"},{"t":1587,"text":"level of stuff support, but ultimately, um, as just mentioned,"},{"t":1592,"text":"you know, the landscape, the contiguous landscaped area and increased"},{"t":1595,"text":"setbacks. So really the primary concern, um, just to ensure,"},{"t":1599,"text":"um, adequate open space, um, meeting the oven forest goals"},{"t":1603,"text":"and increased setbacks from the sidelines to reduce the amount"},{"t":1608,"text":"of variances that are being proposed. Thanks. Another question, Mayor,"},{"t":1613,"text":"if I could is about the parking, um, when you"},{"t":1617,"text":"were suggesting that, um, we, we would be asking where"},{"t":1620,"text":"the staff would be asking for less parking. The fact"},{"t":1622,"text":"is we don't, we don't require this amount of parking."},{"t":1627,"text":"Um, but what is the problem when an applicant knowing"},{"t":1630,"text":"that they've got, especially if they're going for three bedrooms,"},{"t":1633,"text":"which means that I'm guessing the target is, is families"},{"t":1637,"text":"like kids. Which we don't have a lot of, you"},{"t":1641,"text":"know, not just Victoria, but Candace a whole and others."},{"t":1643,"text":"So why would we be wanting to reduce a parking"},{"t":1648,"text":"spot when with active families, I know the families who"},{"t":1654,"text":"use the various bikes that are out there, the cargo"},{"t":1656,"text":"bikes. But why would we be wanting to reduce that"},{"t":1659,"text":"when this would be seen by many, um, purchasers as"},{"t":1663,"text":"a perk. JP. Through the mayor, the current proposal requires"},{"t":1672,"text":"nine residential parking stalls and one visitor stall for a"},{"t":1676,"text":"total of 10. The applicant is currently proposing 13 stalls."},{"t":1680,"text":"So it is an excess of what's required by the"},{"t":1683,"text":"bylaw. So in this case, we would like to work"},{"t":1686,"text":"with the applicant to reduce potentially, say, garages to create,"},{"t":1692,"text":"you know, more green space to have less hardscaped. But"},{"t":1696,"text":"really for now, what is proposed is an excess of"},{"t":1700,"text":"the bylaw. And that is where conversations are had about"},{"t":1703,"text":"shifting the design to help to try to bring it"},{"t":1707,"text":"into better alignment with providing more green space on site"},{"t":1710,"text":"and landscaping. Thank you. Thanks, Mayor. Could you Thompson, do"},{"t":1716,"text":"you have a question. Yes, I do. Thanks, Mira. Please"},{"t":1722,"text":"go ahead. Um. If we could go to the very"},{"t":1725,"text":"beginning of the presentation, uh, I think that the, um,"},{"t":1730,"text":"initial slide had the actual map of the area. Like"},{"t":1734,"text":"the aerial photo. And I wanted to ask about the,"},{"t":1743,"text":"how the perimeter block would look there. Can that be"},{"t":1746,"text":"zoomed in a bit so we can see it a"},{"t":1748,"text":"bit more clearly. Maybe it's actually, maybe it's better to"},{"t":1755,"text":"just leave it where it is. Um, so on, on"},{"t":1758,"text":"perimeter blocks, we adopted that in the latest OCP. And"},{"t":1762,"text":"I totally support that. But, um, I, I have a"},{"t":1766,"text":"question about how it works on a corner property. Like"},{"t":1770,"text":"if I could see in mid block, if you were"},{"t":1773,"text":"to develop all the way to the back of the"},{"t":1774,"text":"yard, you would eliminate the possibility of, of a perimeter"},{"t":1778,"text":"block design. But in a corner, um, does that really,"},{"t":1784,"text":"how would that kind of block the perimeter block idea"},{"t":1787,"text":"in, in the context of this specific. Property. Ms. Wayne."},{"t":1793,"text":"Thank you through the mayor. Thanks for the question. I"},{"t":1796,"text":"think the site is a unique in some respect with"},{"t":1801,"text":"the Westdore connector, um, located on the east of the"},{"t":1805,"text":"property line. I mean, ultimately a perimeter block, you know,"},{"t":1810,"text":"with the West ore connector being a public pathway, um,"},{"t":1814,"text":"in an ideal perimeter block, utopian vision, it would be"},{"t":1817,"text":"an L shape fronting City Hall Road. And then with"},{"t":1821,"text":"a block facing the West Ore connector, um, where we"},{"t":1825,"text":"have challenges in achieving the primitive block objectives is if"},{"t":1828,"text":"there's significant development beyond that within the interior of the"},{"t":1831,"text":"block. I mean, there is that a guidelines, you know,"},{"t":1836,"text":"do allow for some development of that of the interior"},{"t":1839,"text":"of the block, but it really is kind of an"},{"t":1841,"text":"accessory dwelling kind of scale garden sweet scales. Um, you"},{"t":1846,"text":"know, the property would need to be, you know, quite"},{"t":1848,"text":"large to it in order to have anything within the"},{"t":1851,"text":"middle and still meet those objectives. Right. So if I"},{"t":1856,"text":"understand correctly then that the L shape would occupy cedar"},{"t":1860,"text":"hill road and the connector. And then the green space"},{"t":1863,"text":"would be in the sort of the top corner of"},{"t":1864,"text":"what's illustrated there. Through the maya, that's correct. Okay. And"},{"t":1872,"text":"then there's a, um, there's a house at 14, 13"},{"t":1877,"text":"edgeware. That would be right, I guess, I guess that"},{"t":1884,"text":"property would be adjacent to the green space that you're"},{"t":1887,"text":"talking about. Through the merit. Yes, that is correct. Okay."},{"t":1894,"text":"Um. The next question then, uh, the changes that staff"},{"t":1900,"text":"would like to work with the applicant on. Has there"},{"t":1904,"text":"been any discussion with, uh, either internally with a staff"},{"t":1908,"text":"or with the applicant about whether those desired changes would"},{"t":1912,"text":"actually reduce the amount of housing? Or would those changes"},{"t":1915,"text":"still work to provide the same amount of housing. And"},{"t":1920,"text":"if I can elaborate on the question a little bit."},{"t":1923,"text":"Uh, no, I'll just leave it there for now, maybe"},{"t":1925,"text":"elaborate later. We'd like to take that. Through the mayor"},{"t":1933,"text":"in conversations with the applicant we spoke a lot about"},{"t":1936,"text":"the chosen configuration for having the units within three separate"},{"t":1940,"text":"buildings because the density is allowed. The FSR right now"},{"t":1944,"text":"is 1. 01. And it can be 1. 6 to"},{"t":1949,"text":"one. So they could potentially reorientate and have the buildings."},{"t":1955,"text":"Within two buildings per se. However, this is the configuration"},{"t":1959,"text":"that they've chosen. So we had spoken about perhaps attempting"},{"t":1964,"text":"and looking at a stock design. Maybe they do lose"},{"t":1968,"text":"a unit. However, again, it is the applicant's discretion and"},{"t":1972,"text":"decision ultimately as to how they'd like to have it"},{"t":1975,"text":"designed. But we had conversations with them. However, this is"},{"t":1979,"text":"what they've still chosen to proceed with. Okay. Um, and"},{"t":1985,"text":"just, uh, if they, I don't know the scale of"},{"t":1991,"text":"the, um, lots and how they compare with other alternatives."},{"t":1997,"text":"If there were to be four or six story apartment"},{"t":2001,"text":"building, would that be something that the current OCP and"},{"t":2005,"text":"zoning would permit on that lot or the double lot."},{"t":2010,"text":"Ms. Wayne. Thank you through the mowing theory. Yes, that"},{"t":2013,"text":"is possible. The applicant has chosen to move forward with"},{"t":2016,"text":"a townhouse proposal targeting, um, as, as mentioned, families. Okay."},{"t":2026,"text":"Um, I think that's it for my questions, Mayor. Thanks."},{"t":2030,"text":"Councillor Kim. I will come back to you, Councillor. Um,"},{"t":2033,"text":"thank you. Through the chair, there was mention in the"},{"t":2037,"text":"report about issues with sprinklering in block two. Does that"},{"t":2041,"text":"mean that there weren't issues with sprinklering and one and"},{"t":2044,"text":"three. Ms. Brian. Through the mayor, I was actually going"},{"t":2051,"text":"to defer to our fire chief as he's available to"},{"t":2055,"text":"answer questions about the fire access concerns for block two."},{"t":2061,"text":"Chief Atkinson, I did see you online a little earlier."},{"t":2064,"text":"Are you still with us. There you go. Did you"},{"t":2071,"text":"hear the question? Hello, sorry. Yeah. I apologise. I missed"},{"t":2074,"text":"the question. Uh, did you say your question again? Yeah."},{"t":2077,"text":"Uh, block two in the report had issues with sprinklering,"},{"t":2081,"text":"um, because of fire access. Were there any concerns with"},{"t":2085,"text":"blocks one and three. Apologies through the mayor. Um, I'm"},{"t":2092,"text":"going to have to take that back and review. I"},{"t":2094,"text":"suspect on the surface that, um, if blocks one and"},{"t":2098,"text":"three weren't referenced in the report, uh, that our fair"},{"t":2101,"text":"prevention officers wouldn't have flagged them as a concern. But,"},{"t":2103,"text":"uh, I would have to take that away and report"},{"t":2105,"text":"back. Okay. Thank you. Um, do we understand why, uh,"},{"t":2111,"text":"the applicant was not willing to work with the anticipated"},{"t":2117,"text":"fire access requirements. Tween. Through the mayor, um,"},{"t":2128,"text":"my understanding was that the primary, um. Issue that was"},{"t":2133,"text":"preventing them from spring fling, it was cost. I'm hearing"},{"t":2137,"text":"a nod next to me. But just to the, um,"},{"t":2139,"text":"earlier question about blocks one and three, Mr. Atkinson was"},{"t":2144,"text":"correct in that those would not flagged as an issue"},{"t":2146,"text":"during the staff review. My understanding was the primary concern"},{"t":2151,"text":"was, um, the distance that blocked you was from the"},{"t":2155,"text":"street and the closest fire hydrant. Oh, okay. Thanks. Wow."},{"t":2161,"text":"Um, it's kind of a big deal. Um, okay. And"},{"t":2164,"text":"then with respect to Bhaocker Creek, um, there was mentioned"},{"t":2170,"text":"in the correspondence from the applicant about how other properties"},{"t":2175,"text":"nearby don't seem to have similar considerations around Baku Creek."},{"t":2180,"text":"Is that because those properties don't aren't actually on Balker"},{"t":2186,"text":"Creek or adjacent to. No, this, this question's not landing."},{"t":2192,"text":"Um, how do I rephrase this? Um, are you aware,"},{"t":2198,"text":"if any of the adjacent properties have expressed concerns about"},{"t":2201,"text":"their relationship with Bugger Creek? Thank you, Mayor. Through the"},{"t":2206,"text":"merit, no, we have not received any correspondence from neighbours,"},{"t":2210,"text":"um, with concerns like that. Is part of the concern"},{"t":2213,"text":"with the excessive hardscaping partly because of the Bhaoker Creek"},{"t":2221,"text":"relationship too. Is Wayne. Thank you to my, um, any"},{"t":2230,"text":"property that is within the Bhaoquit watershed. Does require, I"},{"t":2236,"text":"think, the best way to phrase it is, um, extra"},{"t":2238,"text":"special considerations. I mean, Stormwater objective so important with all"},{"t":2241,"text":"applications. But when there's an important watershed, um, that's potentially"},{"t":2246,"text":"going to be impacted the review is, um, is more"},{"t":2250,"text":"rigorous and there's definitely a finer lens that's taken on"},{"t":2254,"text":"that review of how the propose is meeting of those"},{"t":2257,"text":"objectives. Okay. Um. Okay. What would need to change"},{"t":2267,"text":"in your view to make this application acceptable. With respect"},{"t":2272,"text":"to those special considerations around the watershed."},{"t":2282,"text":"I think, um, as I was mentioned in the staff"},{"t":2284,"text":"report, you know, the proposal is technically meeting the objectives"},{"t":2288,"text":"with the infiltration chamber. However, increasing more increased in the"},{"t":2294,"text":"permeability of the site is really what it comes down"},{"t":2295,"text":"to. So increasing whether that's to be permeable pavers or,"},{"t":2300,"text":"um, increased landscape space, uh, reduced building footprint. Those are"},{"t":2304,"text":"the kind of the key methods to achieving those objectives."},{"t":2309,"text":"Okay. Thanks. Um, and then the ADP talked about, uh,"},{"t":2314,"text":"improving the ability for pedestrians to use the driveway through"},{"t":2318,"text":"surface material treatments. Can you unpack what that means for"},{"t":2321,"text":"me, please?"},{"t":2332,"text":"Through the mayor, just drawing attention to the landscape plan"},{"t":2335,"text":"here. My understanding from the ADP comment was an attempt"},{"t":2341,"text":"to differentiate pedestrian walkways versus the drive aisle. So as"},{"t":2347,"text":"you can see, there are two different materials proposed within"},{"t":2350,"text":"that interior space. That kind of delineates where a pedestrian"},{"t":2354,"text":"would walk. And it does also soften up. They've provided"},{"t":2358,"text":"planters. So that is my understanding. And that is kind"},{"t":2362,"text":"of being shown here on the landscape plan as the"},{"t":2365,"text":"use of those two different materials. Oh, okay. Thank you."},{"t":2370,"text":"Um, okay. Uh. That's it for me for now. Thanks."},{"t":2376,"text":"Oh, just checking online. I believe Councillor Gerda, you had"},{"t":2378,"text":"a subsequent question. Yeah. So there was, uh, this is"},{"t":2383,"text":"follows up from actually what was asked about a different"},{"t":2385,"text":"angle of it. And that is the discussion about the"},{"t":2388,"text":"contingency of green space. And then in some of the"},{"t":2391,"text":"correspondence we received, that the requirement wasn't quite met because"},{"t":2397,"text":"of the privacy walls between those patio spaces. Is that"},{"t":2401,"text":"part of the problem? Maybe. Through the mayor know that"},{"t":2406,"text":"is not, um, an issue with the design at this"},{"t":2409,"text":"time. Sorry. Through the merit, no. That was not something"},{"t":2414,"text":"that was. That's not the issue at all. Now fire"},{"t":2418,"text":"trucks, fire trucks, not the great big ones, whatever. So"},{"t":2421,"text":"our problem, where is the, uh, fire hydrant along that"},{"t":2424,"text":"street. Cause that seems to be the issue for block"},{"t":2427,"text":"two. Because of course you have better vehicle access into"},{"t":2431,"text":"block two and three than normal, um, multi residential areas."},{"t":2438,"text":"Just before, um, you answer that, uh, Ms. JBI. I"},{"t":2441,"text":"noticed that Chief Atkinson has got his hand up. I"},{"t":2443,"text":"suspect that he has some information from an earlier question,"},{"t":2446,"text":"but may also want to comment on that question. Chief,"},{"t":2449,"text":"over to you. Uh, thank you Mayor. Uh, yeah, I"},{"t":2453,"text":"appreciate the, the grace there. Uh, in through you, I"},{"t":2456,"text":"just wanted to confirm the previous statement. Block two was"},{"t":2459,"text":"specifically a consideration, uh, concerning the distances that would require"},{"t":2463,"text":"to be travelled. Um, to get our equipment in and"},{"t":2465,"text":"things of that nature. So, um, I'll have to, uh,"},{"t":2468,"text":"go back unless the, uh, information is readily available. Um,"},{"t":2473,"text":"at hand, I don't have the exact distance of the"},{"t":2475,"text":"fire hydrant right now, but, uh, it just wanted to"},{"t":2477,"text":"confirm that what block one and block three, uh, we're"},{"t":2480,"text":"identified as an acceptable distance in block two was too"},{"t":2482,"text":"far away. And Chief, just as a follow - up,"},{"t":2486,"text":"is that because you have, you anticipate difficulty getting the"},{"t":2490,"text":"adequate equipment to the block or just the distance from"},{"t":2492,"text":"the street? Is it because of the size of the"},{"t":2494,"text":"trucks and the vis - a - vis the driveway."},{"t":2499,"text":"Uh, thank you for the question through you. Uh, it"},{"t":2501,"text":"could be a combination of both, uh, or one of"},{"t":2503,"text":"the other. The code specifically speaks to the required distances"},{"t":2505,"text":"to the front point to the front entryway. Uh, that's"},{"t":2509,"text":"an acceptable distance. Um, my understanding is in this one"},{"t":2512,"text":"when I reached out to my team is that, uh,"},{"t":2514,"text":"block two, uh, exceeds that distance, uh, and then depending"},{"t":2517,"text":"on the nature of the access, uh, it could be"},{"t":2520,"text":"with respect to where we would need to stage her"},{"t":2522,"text":"operatis as well. And the ability to affect rescue either"},{"t":2525,"text":"from ground ladders or from an aerial ladder. So it"},{"t":2527,"text":"could be any one of those or it could be"},{"t":2529,"text":"a combination of those. Thank you. Anything you'd like to"},{"t":2532,"text":"add to that staff. Council Garder? Okay. There is. What"},{"t":2540,"text":"is being asked or suggested by the fire department is"},{"t":2542,"text":"sprinkling outside the building as opposed to inside, which is"},{"t":2546,"text":"already there. It's access to the building, yes. Yeah. The"},{"t":2550,"text":"outside. Thank you. That's what I understood. Yeah. Any other"},{"t":2556,"text":"questions Councillor Kim? Um, if there are no other questions,"},{"t":2561,"text":"I was actually going to move. I want to make"},{"t":2564,"text":"sure we have all the questions asked for us. Council"},{"t":2566,"text":"Coleman. You have a question? Yes. And through you to"},{"t":2569,"text":"staff, I fascinated by the advisory design panels report. Does"},{"t":2574,"text":"their recommendation resonate more with alternative option one or alternative"},{"t":2579,"text":"option. Too. That's a bit of a leading question, but"},{"t":2585,"text":"let's see whether anyone wishes to answer that question. I"},{"t":2590,"text":"suspect because the recommendation is to decline that that would"},{"t":2593,"text":"be the answer to that question. But Ms. Wayne, would"},{"t":2596,"text":"you like to venture a well with respect your worship?"},{"t":2599,"text":"The ADP's recommendation was to accept. So it's, through the"},{"t":2607,"text":"mayor, just rereading the motion from the design panel, um,"},{"t":2612,"text":"as was just suggested, the recommendation was to, for minor"},{"t":2616,"text":"revisions, which have been addressed, um, however, uh, it's not"},{"t":2620,"text":"uncommon for, um, the advisory design panel to make a"},{"t":2623,"text":"recommendation to Council and staff still have concerns remaining in"},{"t":2628,"text":"relation to consistency with the policy and the guidelines. Thank"},{"t":2632,"text":"you. But so it's more option too than option. Alternative"},{"t":2637,"text":"option too, as opposed to alternative option one. That's correct."},{"t":2639,"text":"Thank you. Thank you. Great. Any other questions. Councillor Dell,"},{"t":2644,"text":"you have questions. I was just also going to be"},{"t":2648,"text":"prepared to move an option. If no one else was"},{"t":2650,"text":"ready for that. My belief several people have indicated interest."},{"t":2653,"text":"So let me ask the question. Wait, point of order."},{"t":2656,"text":"Just a short one. Can you ask the Councillor Police"},{"t":2659,"text":"Trump is I couldn't hear him. Yes. Uh, Councillor Dell"},{"t":2661,"text":"is willing to move motion. I'm going to ask the"},{"t":2663,"text":"question as is our convention. Does anyone wish to move"},{"t":2665,"text":"the staff recommendation. Councillor Dell, you have your hand up."},{"t":2671,"text":"Are you wanting to move the staff recommendation? No. No."},{"t":2677,"text":"Would someone like to move a recommendation? Councillor Kim? Uh,"},{"t":2680,"text":"option one, please. Option one. Is there a second of"},{"t":2683,"text":"her option one. I'm not seeing a second over option"},{"t":2690,"text":"one. I suspect that would leave the option of option"},{"t":2695,"text":"two since neither the staff recommendation nor option one have"},{"t":2699,"text":"been moved or seconded. So would have someone would like"},{"t":2701,"text":"to move option two. Councillor Dell has got his hand"},{"t":2704,"text":"up. Is her second account, Sir Coleman. Councillor Dell, would"},{"t":2708,"text":"you like to motivate an option too, please? Sure. Hopefully"},{"t":2712,"text":"you can hear me properly. Uh, Councillor Dick, is there"},{"t":2715,"text":"any way you can boost your volume because you're very"},{"t":2717,"text":"hard to hear. Uh, I don't think I, maybe I'll,"},{"t":2723,"text":"uh, can you hear me now a bit better? That's"},{"t":2725,"text":"a little bit better. Yes. Go ahead. Okay. I'll keep"},{"t":2730,"text":"a quick. I think option two is the best option"},{"t":2733,"text":"to move. It was recommended by the advisory design. And"},{"t":2739,"text":"we've just lost your audio there, Matt. And yeah."},{"t":2750,"text":"Matt, we've lost your audio and you. So Matt, I'm"},{"t":2753,"text":"going to come back to you and go to Councillor"},{"t":2755,"text":"Coleman as the seconder. And then after Councillor Coleman, I'll"},{"t":2759,"text":"come back to you and see whether we can get"},{"t":2760,"text":"a better audio connection. Concert Coleman, why don't you take."},{"t":2766,"text":"On behalf of the mover? No, it's, this is a"},{"t":2770,"text":"fascinating one. And I think staff have done a fabulous"},{"t":2773,"text":"job in a very unusual situation where we've changed planning"},{"t":2779,"text":"and zoning. They've fulfilled their requirements. Um, and we need"},{"t":2783,"text":"to understand our role. Our role around this table is"},{"t":2787,"text":"to create policy, which we've done through the OCP. And"},{"t":2792,"text":"staff then go through the implementation process. We bungee cord"},{"t":2796,"text":"down when there are, um, some rough spots between implementation"},{"t":2799,"text":"and policy. This is one of those for me anyway."},{"t":2804,"text":"I'm fascinated by the discussion that has gone on particularly"},{"t":2807,"text":"with respect to the applicants, uh, desire to have parking"},{"t":2811,"text":"for each of the units. And that doesn't fit with"},{"t":2814,"text":"the policy that we have. I disagree with that policy."},{"t":2819,"text":"I have a right to do that. I think that"},{"t":2821,"text":"here is, uh, 12 units in three buildings that are"},{"t":2826,"text":"set up perfectly for families. There may well be the"},{"t":2830,"text":"market for, uh, those units to have. Parking associated with"},{"t":2836,"text":"them. It creates for us then the discussion we're going"},{"t":2840,"text":"to have to have about if we go with lower"},{"t":2843,"text":"parking, we create basically an economic externality. People will still"},{"t":2849,"text":"have cars and they'll park them out on the streets"},{"t":2851,"text":"somewhere. And we know from two weeks ago, transit said"},{"t":2856,"text":"one of the reasons there are roots are slowing down"},{"t":2859,"text":"is because of CURB use by other people. So we"},{"t":2861,"text":"just need to think about that in this context. Um,"},{"t":2864,"text":"I think it's there. I've never met a perfect application,"},{"t":2869,"text":"but I think that this is one that does deserve"},{"t":2871,"text":"support. I hope that I captured at least the essence"},{"t":2875,"text":"of what the mover wanted to say. And that's my"},{"t":2879,"text":"perspective. I think that this does work. And I very"},{"t":2881,"text":"much appreciate that staff. Were boxed in to denial of"},{"t":2887,"text":"this application because of the changing landscape. I will point"},{"t":2891,"text":"out I actually opposed the OCP because I didn't think"},{"t":2896,"text":"staff were given enough time to deal with it appropriately."},{"t":2899,"text":"We cut them from the five years that they asked"},{"t":2902,"text":"for, we cut them down to three in the province"},{"t":2904,"text":"made it to an a quarter years. This is one"},{"t":2906,"text":"of those hard edges that's right in the middle of"},{"t":2908,"text":"that process. So I support option or the alternative recommendation"},{"t":2912,"text":"too. Thank you very much. And the mover has in"},{"t":2915,"text":"fact indicated that he is quite satisfied with your commentary."},{"t":2920,"text":"And we'll simply, um, vote to approve at time. Uh,"},{"t":2923,"text":"Councillor Gardner. Thank you. And thank you to the comments"},{"t":2928,"text":"already made. Now over the years is always involved in"},{"t":2930,"text":"the Jane's Fay Kellock. There were five to 12 developments"},{"t":2933,"text":"each year. And the population of neighbourhood grew by 3,"},{"t":2937,"text":"000 people. But during my 16 years on the JBNA"},{"t":2940,"text":"board, I only once spoke in public at a public"},{"t":2945,"text":"hearing against a proposal. And that's because I support and"},{"t":2949,"text":"guided several proposals which I considered a benefit to the"},{"t":2951,"text":"community. And I support development proposals that fit, that enhanced"},{"t":2956,"text":"street and contribute to Community Living. And while I oppose"},{"t":2960,"text":"the missing middle housing policy and the minimization and our"},{"t":2963,"text":"elimination of Community and Council input, which has been mentioned"},{"t":2967,"text":"by Councillor Coleman, and in a delegation, I found this"},{"t":2972,"text":"application proposes development that will enhance the street and the"},{"t":2976,"text":"connection between the streets. I walked the area yesterday. There"},{"t":2983,"text":"are multi - residential buildings with a parking lot to"},{"t":2986,"text":"the south and unusual shaped lots to the north and"},{"t":2989,"text":"to the east. This property is not within a nice"},{"t":2992,"text":"rectangular perimeter block form. And I don't think it ever"},{"t":2996,"text":"will be. This development will not negatively impact the neighbouring"},{"t":3001,"text":"properties. It will add. It will be real family housing,"},{"t":3005,"text":"which is very rare nowadays. And it's not going to"},{"t":3009,"text":"be, it's not the common cookie cutter design. And it's"},{"t":3013,"text":"going to have adequate bike parking and vehicle parking spot"},{"t":3017,"text":"for each townhome. It's easy to see why this proposal"},{"t":3021,"text":"breathes through the Oakland's Kellogg process. It's a very acceptable"},{"t":3026,"text":"proposal. I hope that more thought can be given to"},{"t":3029,"text":"spring finger water axis in case of emergencies. But I'm"},{"t":3034,"text":"of course understand that the interior of, uh, block two"},{"t":3037,"text":"is fully, will be fully, um, have sprinkles sprinklers. So"},{"t":3042,"text":"I support this application to proceed as is. Thank you,"},{"t":3046,"text":"Mayor. Thank you Councillor Lauton. Thanks. And through you mayor."},{"t":3052,"text":"I also want to note that this is, it's in"},{"t":3056,"text":"limbo, it's in between policies. And this is really difficult"},{"t":3059,"text":"for staff because it, um, it doesn't align with the,"},{"t":3065,"text":"with the delegated path and the guidelines. So it is,"},{"t":3068,"text":"this is a hard one. To me, this is an"},{"t":3071,"text":"anomaly. And, and it's a one - off. We're not,"},{"t":3075,"text":"if a project like this came, this can't be normalized."},{"t":3078,"text":"This is something that, um, it's stuck in between, um,"},{"t":3085,"text":"of the changes that we've been making. But I do"},{"t":3089,"text":"want to note that, interestingly, um, the 2025 annual housing"},{"t":3094,"text":"review is the next item on our agenda. And in"},{"t":3097,"text":"that, the missing middle homes, we've hit our targets, but"},{"t":3101,"text":"when we break it down into, into housing type, the"},{"t":3105,"text":"missing middle is one that we've, we've, that it is"},{"t":3109,"text":"unmet in the overall progress. We've only hit 46 percent"},{"t":3112,"text":"of our target. So for me, it's really important that"},{"t":3117,"text":"even though this, this isn't anomaly, this is the housing"},{"t":3122,"text":"type and form that we need. And on top of"},{"t":3126,"text":"that, the fact that they're all three bedroom, we just"},{"t":3129,"text":"don't see that. And for me that trumps the issues"},{"t":3135,"text":"around the guidelines with it. So I'm comfortable with supporting"},{"t":3140,"text":"this. And I know, mayor, this isn't, it's not, this"},{"t":3143,"text":"isn't a conventional thing. We don't take the proponent into"},{"t":3146,"text":"consideration when we're making, um, these kinds of decisions. But"},{"t":3150,"text":"I do want to note for the public that this"},{"t":3153,"text":"is a female - led development. And we very, very"},{"t":3157,"text":"rarely see that. And again, not part of my decision"},{"t":3161,"text":"here today. However, I think that we should note that,"},{"t":3166,"text":"and I, because I just want to cute to, to"},{"t":3168,"text":"see and encourage more, more women to get involved in"},{"t":3172,"text":"the development process. So thanks, staff. I know this is"},{"t":3175,"text":"tough, um, but I'm happy to, uh, support Option to"},{"t":3179,"text":"you today. Thank you. Thank you, Councillor Kim. Thanks to"},{"t":3184,"text":"the chair. I have sent very shoddily worded amendment to"},{"t":3189,"text":"staff and would appreciate grammatical assistance. Just put that up"},{"t":3197,"text":"and see what it is."},{"t":3247,"text":"So staff, are you, I wonder if you can pull"},{"t":3250,"text":"it down so we can see the right place for"},{"t":3252,"text":"that. I know you're, um, your system is struggling with"},{"t":3255,"text":"the particular place on the description of its subsections. So"},{"t":3264,"text":"provision of proposa. So it would be B, I think"},{"t":3268,"text":"in staff you can planning stuff incorrect. I think this"},{"t":3271,"text":"would be a B sub three and a B sub"},{"t":3274,"text":"four. So under, under the B. There you go. That"},{"t":3284,"text":"should be sub three. And then the next one, if"},{"t":3287,"text":"I recall is a sub four. And I think those"},{"t":3290,"text":"are materially different. So we're going to deal with them"},{"t":3292,"text":"individually. So on the first one, which is sub three."},{"t":3301,"text":"Supervised plans from the top. I'm not sure that you"},{"t":3306,"text":"need the further attempts. I think it would be long"},{"t":3310,"text":"technical items."},{"t":3323,"text":"I'm not sure that attempts can be to the satisfaction"},{"t":3325,"text":"of the director of planning. That's when I'm struggling with."},{"t":3329,"text":"Yeah. I felt similarly. So I think correct the following"},{"t":3334,"text":"technical items. Mr. Johnston, I'm going to ask you for"},{"t":3339,"text":"your advice on this unless you want to defer to"},{"t":3341,"text":"one of our year three able colleagues. But what I"},{"t":3344,"text":"understand the intent behind this is that there'd be more"},{"t":3346,"text":"work done to try and address the issues around fire"},{"t":3349,"text":"safety in block. Two. How would you prefer that to"},{"t":3354,"text":"be described. Mr. Handy. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. And,"},{"t":3364,"text":"um, good morning, everybody. Jim Handy is acting assistant director"},{"t":3367,"text":"development services. Through you, Matt. Just looking at the two"},{"t":3373,"text":"bullets that have been added, um, the first one, um,"},{"t":3377,"text":"I think that would be, um, part of building permit"},{"t":3381,"text":"considerations. I see. Um, I think, you know, it's, it's"},{"t":3387,"text":"a useful to flog it in the recommendation, but it"},{"t":3391,"text":"would be part of the conversations that the building permit"},{"t":3393,"text":"stage. And if, um, FYI cord or building code issues"},{"t":3398,"text":"weren't being addressed at that stage and necessitated amendments to"},{"t":3403,"text":"the development permit, then that would have to come back"},{"t":3406,"text":"to. So I'm wondering with both of these given what"},{"t":3408,"text":"you've said, which makes sense. Um, Sef, you just scroll"},{"t":3411,"text":"up so we can see the second part as well."},{"t":3414,"text":"I'm wondering if given both of these, I think. Could"},{"t":3418,"text":"be a motion arising. To direct staff to continue these"},{"t":3422,"text":"conversations. But what I'm hearing for Mr. Handy is that"},{"t":3425,"text":"this is not the right place for that to appear"},{"t":3428,"text":"because it isn't actually a contingent clause based upon what"},{"t":3432,"text":"we're discussing, right? That's fair. Mr. Handy, thank you. Yeah,"},{"t":3436,"text":"actually, I think the second bullet would be appropriate here."},{"t":3439,"text":"We could have that conversation. Okay. And actually the benefit"},{"t":3442,"text":"of having the further attempt piece in that bullet. It"},{"t":3447,"text":"means it gives us an opportunity to go back and"},{"t":3449,"text":"have those conversations with the applicant. But if we are"},{"t":3453,"text":"unable to move the needle, we can progress with approval"},{"t":3459,"text":"of the application rather than it being brought back to"},{"t":3463,"text":"council. So I'm going to suggest if I've heard correctly"},{"t":3465,"text":"that the one that's currently B sub three be pulled"},{"t":3469,"text":"out can be a motion rising. But what's B sub"},{"t":3473,"text":"four can in fact stand as part of an amendment"},{"t":3476,"text":"under that section. Without any changes actually, according to staff,"},{"t":3481,"text":"if I understand them correctly. So with that then, I"},{"t":3484,"text":"will take that as a proper amendment with someone who"},{"t":3486,"text":"wished his second debt. That's with regard to Stormwater runoff."},{"t":3496,"text":"Councillor Loe is seconding that. Councillor Kim on your amendment."},{"t":3498,"text":"Thanks. Uh, question to staff. So to be clear, further"},{"t":3502,"text":"attempts is helpful, but does that. Make it happen, happen."},{"t":3506,"text":"You know what I mean? Just win. Thank you through"},{"t":3509,"text":"the mayor. Um, I think it does provide staff some"},{"t":3512,"text":"clear direction to continue these conversations. These are things that"},{"t":3516,"text":"staff have been asking throughout the, um, uh, stuff review"},{"t":3519,"text":"process anyway. Um, so I think it does provide some,"},{"t":3523,"text":"um, opportunity to continue these with the applicant. To be"},{"t":3527,"text":"clear, if I heard Mr. Handy correctly, if that's unresolvable,"},{"t":3531,"text":"it does not stop the application, nor does it return"},{"t":3534,"text":"to Council. That's correct, yeah. So it's essentially directing for"},{"t":3538,"text":"their conversation. Okay. Well, I at least want to say"},{"t":3543,"text":"a tried. Um, so it was actually, uh, the, the"},{"t":3548,"text":"reason for this particular piece is because of the Bauker"},{"t":3552,"text":"Creek watershed. And the relationship to salmon, it was in"},{"t":3556,"text":"fact in our own community that citizen science discovered that"},{"t":3560,"text":"it was, um, uh, off gassing of, um, like a"},{"t":3566,"text":"chemical coming off of CAR tires that contributed to the"},{"t":3569,"text":"mass die off of local, um, salmon spawns and salmon"},{"t":3573,"text":"population and just seeing the relationship with the increased heartscaping"},{"t":3580,"text":"and lack of consideration for, uh, the water quality entering"},{"t":3583,"text":"the creek. I, you know, I just, I just want"},{"t":3586,"text":"to say I did my part to protect the salmon."},{"t":3592,"text":"We have to do better. We just have to do"},{"t":3594,"text":"better. And if this is a step forward in that"},{"t":3597,"text":"direction, so be it. That's it. Councillor Cloutent is a"},{"t":3600,"text":"secondary. Through you, Mayor, I seconded for conversation, but I"},{"t":3605,"text":"think this does the, it will help further the conversation"},{"t":3611,"text":"and, you know, the proponent and staff are listening to"},{"t":3613,"text":"this right now. And hearing, um, what the mover would"},{"t":3620,"text":"like to see happen. So I think at least some"},{"t":3623,"text":"more conversations will happen around this. So, um, I'm happy"},{"t":3628,"text":"to support it. Thank you. Anybody else on the amendment."},{"t":3634,"text":"I'm not seeing anyone else from the amendment. Oh, Councillor"},{"t":3635,"text":"Coleman, go ahead. Thank you. I mean, I think what"},{"t":3638,"text":"we really want is a policy direction from the table"},{"t":3641,"text":"with respect to Boker Creek. This is trying to backdoor"},{"t":3645,"text":"that process in some ways. And I understand that. I'm"},{"t":3648,"text":"supportive of the further attempts because I think it is"},{"t":3651,"text":"a worthy one. But if we're going to be honest"},{"t":3654,"text":"about the issue, then it's up to us to bring"},{"t":3657,"text":"a policy statement about runoff from all areas into the"},{"t":3661,"text":"watershed. You can't do it. One, one property at a"},{"t":3665,"text":"time. Yeah, I still think it's worthy of support. Thank"},{"t":3669,"text":"you. The direction is too. High. Right. Councillor Gardner on"},{"t":3673,"text":"the amendment. Um, to staff. We're starting to get into"},{"t":3679,"text":"kinder, I hate to say, I want to talk about"},{"t":3680,"text":"a creek, the weeds. But, um, as to exact surfaces,"},{"t":3685,"text":"because I can recall years ago that there was actually"},{"t":3686,"text":"asphalt that was somewhat permeable. So what kind of surface"},{"t":3690,"text":"is, um, I mean, I saw the, um, accessible one"},{"t":3695,"text":"parking spot. And it looked like it had those paper"},{"t":3697,"text":"spoons with the gaps. It's from what I gathered from"},{"t":3699,"text":"the diagram. So what kind of asphalt is there now?"},{"t":3703,"text":"Is it the asphalt being planned? The one that is"},{"t":3706,"text":"somewhat permeable or is it not. Ms. Wayne? Is that"},{"t":3712,"text":"our question? Um, I believe it's just being through the"},{"t":3716,"text":"mayor. I believe it's just being confirmed now, but my"},{"t":3718,"text":"understanding is that it's just the regular asphalt, not the"},{"t":3721,"text":"special permeable asphalt. Okay. And I don't know of course"},{"t":3726,"text":"the cost differential. I guess no one else here does"},{"t":3728,"text":"either. Cause that's not really our business. So I'm just"},{"t":3731,"text":"worrying about the word again that you'd already started with"},{"t":3734,"text":"when the previous number three, which was further attempts to,"},{"t":3738,"text":"and tempt be a satisfaction. I'm more worried about it."},{"t":3741,"text":"But I think that we have to again, as has"},{"t":3743,"text":"been mentioned, look at all of the structures not pick"},{"t":3747,"text":"on one, especially when I look at this light and"},{"t":3750,"text":"how it fits in with the ones around it. Because"},{"t":3752,"text":"it's, and it's also in a hill. Believe me. Hillside's"},{"t":3756,"text":"called Hillside for a reason. And as I walk that"},{"t":3758,"text":"property yesterday, it's obvious in the schematics showed the slant"},{"t":3763,"text":"two. Uh, so I'm not sure if this is going"},{"t":3766,"text":"to be actually that useful. I'm not sure what it"},{"t":3768,"text":"really means. Thank you very much. Um, I don't see"},{"t":3772,"text":"anyone online wanting to speak to the amendment. I can"},{"t":3776,"text":"support the amendment because of the first two words actually"},{"t":3779,"text":"as grammatically awkward as they may be, uh, because as"},{"t":3782,"text":"I think was clearly stated by the staff, while this"},{"t":3785,"text":"does generate a further conversation, which is always good. It"},{"t":3788,"text":"does indicate desire by council to have these types of"},{"t":3791,"text":"conversations. And this has been mentioned perhaps that's a future"},{"t":3794,"text":"conversation for Council. But I'm also very clearly heard that"},{"t":3798,"text":"should this be unsuccessful or that the director of planning"},{"t":3802,"text":"determines that whatever happens is satisfactory that this process will"},{"t":3805,"text":"not be concluded, will not be stopped, not be delayed."},{"t":3809,"text":"And will not return to Council. So I'm okay with"},{"t":3812,"text":"that. Olo's in favor of the amendment. Anybody opposed. No"},{"t":3818,"text":"one is posed. That is unanimous. Uh, and Councillor Kim,"},{"t":3821,"text":"you still have the floor. That's it for me. Thanks."},{"t":3826,"text":"Okay. Anybody else on the main motion as a man,"},{"t":3829,"text":"you can Councillor Hammond. Thanks, Mayor. One of the things"},{"t":3833,"text":"for me that is a concern is putting anyone at"},{"t":3837,"text":"risk when it comes to fire safety. So the fact"},{"t":3839,"text":"that we would have motion arising, I think is very"},{"t":3841,"text":"important. I was very pleased to be corrected several months"},{"t":3847,"text":"ago by the police chief when I had the mistaken"},{"t":3850,"text":"impression that due to every education and changes, um, changes"},{"t":3857,"text":"in just, uh, so many areas of fire safety that,"},{"t":3860,"text":"that, uh, fires were down and the chief corrected me"},{"t":3864,"text":"and said, no, they're not. As a matter of fact,"},{"t":3866,"text":"they're more. So this is not, this is not something,"},{"t":3870,"text":"um, of a light issue. And therefore, I really hope"},{"t":3874,"text":"that staff and the proponent, um, can make sure that"},{"t":3878,"text":"they address this because no one under any circumstances would"},{"t":3882,"text":"want to, if there was a fire and say, Oh"},{"t":3885,"text":"my God, why didn't we do something? So that was"},{"t":3888,"text":"the, that was the thing that was holding me back."},{"t":3891,"text":"The fact that it'd be coming forward, um, and I'll"},{"t":3894,"text":"be supporting that is something that I'm willing to do."},{"t":3897,"text":"So as I read this and I'm reading the decline"},{"t":3899,"text":"and I'm always very, um, differential, as a matter of"},{"t":3903,"text":"fact, to the staff, because what the hell do I"},{"t":3905,"text":"know? Um, but the interesting thing is I was surprised"},{"t":3908,"text":"by the lack of opposition to it when I looked"},{"t":3911,"text":"at the density of this. And then of course when"},{"t":3915,"text":"I saw that it wasn't out of line, at least"},{"t":3918,"text":"for the character of the neighbourhood, uh, and even as"},{"t":3922,"text":"staff had indicated its lower, the height is lower than"},{"t":3925,"text":"the maximum that is allowed. And of course, one of"},{"t":3927,"text":"the issues that I've got is a lot of people"},{"t":3930,"text":"are going to be stunned when they find these very"},{"t":3932,"text":"large four and six story buildings suddenly are coming beside"},{"t":3937,"text":"them. This does not do that. The other thing that"},{"t":3940,"text":"of course really caught my attention was about all three"},{"t":3943,"text":"bedrooms. And we just don't see this. And I know"},{"t":3947,"text":"this has been discussed before. And so this is just,"},{"t":3951,"text":"this is just something that without a doubt, because of"},{"t":3954,"text":"the information that we're going to be receiving next on"},{"t":3956,"text":"the next item of the agenda about housing is that"},{"t":3959,"text":"we need more three bedrooms. Um, I don't know, uh,"},{"t":3963,"text":"how affordable it's going to be. And as a matter"},{"t":3965,"text":"of fact, it's not going to be, it's going to"},{"t":3967,"text":"be a market rates. But the fact is that there"},{"t":3970,"text":"are families who need this. So I appreciate the issues"},{"t":3976,"text":"that the staff are bringing forward. And I think for"},{"t":3979,"text":"me, the compromises, especially if we can deal with the"},{"t":3982,"text":"issue of fire safety. I think this is supportable. So"},{"t":3988,"text":"thank you very much. Thank you, Councillor Thompson. Thanks, Mayor."},{"t":3994,"text":"Yeah. I just wanted to maybe echo, uh, my colleague"},{"t":3997,"text":"talking about, uh, rejecting staff advice, which we've, we've heard"},{"t":4002,"text":"an awful lot about, uh, for the last few years."},{"t":4005,"text":"And I'm, I'm surprised to see it happening, uh, so"},{"t":4008,"text":"broadly. When it comes to the perimeter block, um, I"},{"t":4016,"text":"just want to speak to that for a little bit."},{"t":4019,"text":"I, as I mentioned, uh, earlier, very supportive of the"},{"t":4023,"text":"perimeter block idea. I do think that housing should be"},{"t":4027,"text":"pushed generally pushed toward the street and allow for that"},{"t":4033,"text":"perimeter block. Um, this one's a bit unique. Uh, as"},{"t":4039,"text":"a, as a hinted before, this isn't a mid block"},{"t":4042,"text":"property that would, that would kind of put a barrier"},{"t":4046,"text":"in the middle of a perimeter block. It's kind of"},{"t":4048,"text":"at the corner. As staff mentioned, uh, the L shape"},{"t":4054,"text":"would allow for, if it were adopted, would allow for"},{"t":4058,"text":"a green area, um, in the sort of northern part"},{"t":4061,"text":"of the, of the, uh, property. But I note that"},{"t":4066,"text":"there are some other properties that are adjacent to that"},{"t":4070,"text":"that would make it quite a small space and probably"},{"t":4073,"text":"not something, uh, similar to what, what is illustrated in"},{"t":4079,"text":"our OCP diagrams of what a perimeter block is where"},{"t":4082,"text":"you have, uh, shared space among many properties, uh, potentially"},{"t":4087,"text":"all properties on the block. Um, this would be a"},{"t":4090,"text":"quite a small hemmed space. It did also want to"},{"t":4093,"text":"speak to, uh, Les parking. Unusual, uh, situation of a,"},{"t":4100,"text":"of an applicant seeking to provide more parking. Um, I,"},{"t":4106,"text":"uh, kind of, I support the staff recommendation on that"},{"t":4109,"text":"one or at least the staff's thinking on it. You"},{"t":4115,"text":"know, not every household has cars. I know that this"},{"t":4118,"text":"is, this can be a little challenging as a statistic"},{"t":4123,"text":"because a lot of people aren't familiar with that lifestyle."},{"t":4127,"text":"But if we look at the data, uh, from the"},{"t":4130,"text":"origin destination travel study in the city of Victoria, most,"},{"t":4138,"text":"so most households do have cars. I have a car,"},{"t":4141,"text":"uh, but a quarter of households don't. And I think"},{"t":4144,"text":"that, uh, we need to sort of accept that and"},{"t":4149,"text":"just, uh, sort of allow for the idea that, uh,"},{"t":4152,"text":"parking requirements are going down, uh, the developments. And we've"},{"t":4156,"text":"seen them in the, in the city and in this"},{"t":4157,"text":"region, uh, that are car free. And they're going to"},{"t":4160,"text":"appeal to, uh, those CAR - free households. I, as"},{"t":4167,"text":"I said, I have a car and I have kids."},{"t":4170,"text":"I've met some families without kids. Sorry. I had some"},{"t":4173,"text":"families with kids who don't have a car. Um, and,"},{"t":4177,"text":"uh, and seemed to be doing just fine. So, uh,"},{"t":4180,"text":"just a couple of comments on those topics. I think"},{"t":4184,"text":"my colleagues have covered the rest of it. Um, uh,"},{"t":4188,"text":"I think it's important that the city support additions to"},{"t":4195,"text":"our housing stock. Uh, this perhaps wouldn't be the, the"},{"t":4200,"text":"ideal, uh, housing proposal from the perspective of staff. And"},{"t":4205,"text":"possibly not from me. I might actually prefer to see,"},{"t":4209,"text":"uh, some additional density, uh, on this lot. But we"},{"t":4214,"text":"don't get to, uh, to pick what the applicant puts"},{"t":4217,"text":"before us. Uh, as a city, uh, we have to"},{"t":4220,"text":"kind of judge yes or no. Um, so I would"},{"t":4223,"text":"rather see this go ahead than not go ahead. Uh,"},{"t":4227,"text":"even though I think it could be improved in some"},{"t":4228,"text":"ways, uh, but that's always the way it is. Thanks,"},{"t":4232,"text":"Mayor. Those are all my comments. Thank you very much."},{"t":4234,"text":"Anybody else on the amended motion. Councillor Hammond. Did you"},{"t":4238,"text":"want to go again? Let's go ahead. I promise I"},{"t":4242,"text":"promise this is nothing to do with my colleague Hallman"},{"t":4245,"text":"Gumba parking because I realised beforehand I thought the one"},{"t":4247,"text":"thing that I did want to comment about and I"},{"t":4249,"text":"forgot to say it. And that's about parking. And I"},{"t":4251,"text":"just wanted to say that there's a number of times"},{"t":4254,"text":"where Council has said, Hey, look, there is a market"},{"t":4257,"text":"for people without, um, without cars, what there are. And"},{"t":4263,"text":"I've said this many times before. I went 22 years"},{"t":4265,"text":"without a car. And so I reckon an early use"},{"t":4269,"text":"of moto when it was called CAN. And so I"},{"t":4271,"text":"recognise it and loved actually being car free. But I"},{"t":4274,"text":"also want to say the market four cars. And especially"},{"t":4277,"text":"if, if there's ever a group that's got it, if"},{"t":4280,"text":"we're going to have families, um, there's a certain number"},{"t":4283,"text":"of families who are going to continue to feel the"},{"t":4285,"text":"need for cars and maybe a different times in their"},{"t":4287,"text":"lives. They can realise they don't need them. And I"},{"t":4290,"text":"encourage that. But I think this is nice to think"},{"t":4292,"text":"that when the application is thinking three, three bedrooms, lots"},{"t":4297,"text":"of opportunities for families. There's lots of opportunities where they"},{"t":4300,"text":"might want, uh, where they might want cars. And that"},{"t":4303,"text":"was just one thing that I wanted to add. And"},{"t":4305,"text":"I forgot to say something about that. Thank you. Thank"},{"t":4306,"text":"you very much. Anyone else on the amended motion. I"},{"t":4313,"text":"would just say that in addition to all of the"},{"t":4315,"text":"positive comments that are here, I do want to thank"},{"t":4319,"text":"staff for their work. I mean, they've done what they're"},{"t":4321,"text":"required to do under the policies. And if we want"},{"t":4323,"text":"to change those policies, that's up to us. The phenomenal"},{"t":4328,"text":"presentation of having all of these units as three bedrooms"},{"t":4331,"text":"is extraordinary and absolutely supportable. And while I do as"},{"t":4334,"text":"others have said support in general, the perimeter block of"},{"t":4336,"text":"notion, I just don't think it's possible on this lot."},{"t":4339,"text":"And so given that it's not possible on this lot,"},{"t":4341,"text":"I think what's being presented is the best that we"},{"t":4343,"text":"can do and has some remarkable advantages. So I'm happy"},{"t":4346,"text":"to support this. All those in favor is anyone opposed."},{"t":4353,"text":"That is unanimous. A Councillor Kim, I believe we could"},{"t":4356,"text":"pull up your other amendment as a potential motion arising."},{"t":4359,"text":"Staff, could you pull it up on the screen and"},{"t":4361,"text":"we'll just adjust the language to make it work. Um,"},{"t":4365,"text":"there we go. So I think that should be something"},{"t":4369,"text":"like, uh, direct staff to. Have further discussions with the"},{"t":4378,"text":"applicant. To explore. Additional."},{"t":4388,"text":"And then take out the word that. Our safety. And"},{"t":4397,"text":"then you can take out the, um. Be improved. And"},{"t":4402,"text":"just say, so I put a comma after road. Yes."},{"t":4404,"text":"Delete. And then leave it like that. Direct staff to"},{"t":4407,"text":"have a further discussions with the outline to explore additional"},{"t":4409,"text":"fire safety with post block to the satisfaction neuron. Councillor"},{"t":4413,"text":"Kim, is that sufficient. Set, explain what you wanted to"},{"t":4417,"text":"declare. Okay. Is there a seconder for that? Councillor Lotening"},{"t":4421,"text":"that's emotionarizing Councillor Kim Dewich to speak to that. Oh,"},{"t":4425,"text":"Councillor? Nope. Anybody else on the motion rising. Okay. Not"},{"t":4431,"text":"seeing any other comments. All those in favor. Anyone opposed."},{"t":4435,"text":"That is unanimous. Uh, okay. Folks, I think our next"},{"t":4438,"text":"item is likely going to take a little bit, um,"},{"t":4441,"text":"longer than 10 minutes. So I'm going to suggest we"},{"t":4444,"text":"take a break now and, uh, it's 10, 18 by"},{"t":4447,"text":"my clock. Let's return at 1030. And we'll move on"},{"t":4450,"text":"at that point to H1."},{"t":4471,"text":"Over to you folks. Sure. Good morning, Mayor and Council."},{"t":4477,"text":"I'm Andrea Hudson, assistant director of Citywide Planning with me"},{"t":4482,"text":"today is Ross Sauerd, our manager of housing, and Michaela"},{"t":4485,"text":"Montgomery, our housing planner. And I will turn it over"},{"t":4487,"text":"to Ms. Montgomery to walk you through the presentation and"},{"t":4491,"text":"the staff recommendation today. Excellent, thank you. Welcome. Thank you."},{"t":4500,"text":"Good morning, Mayor and Council. It's a pleasure to be"},{"t":4502,"text":"with you today. This presentation is broken into three areas."},{"t":4508,"text":"The purpose is to present council with the very last"},{"t":4511,"text":"annual review of Victoria's Housing Strategy Phase 2 and further"},{"t":4515,"text":"provides counsel the opportunity to endorse the work plan for"},{"t":4518,"text":"the next 10 - year housing strategy and approve the"},{"t":4521,"text":"interim housing goalposts. This first section provides a snapshot of"},{"t":4529,"text":"the annual review highlighting trends in the housing system and"},{"t":4532,"text":"the City's Progress toward housing targets. While fulfilling the commitment"},{"t":4536,"text":"to annual monitoring and evaluation. The 2025 annual review marks"},{"t":4542,"text":"the conclusion of the housing strategy phase two and reflects"},{"t":4546,"text":"a period of significant housing delivery policy reform and strengthened"},{"t":4550,"text":"tenant protections. Consistent with the City's adaptive management framework. The"},{"t":4555,"text":"report identifies emerging trends and issues to help inform future"},{"t":4559,"text":"actions. In 2025, the City successfully exceeded the six -"},{"t":4565,"text":"year overall housing supply target. Major milestones in 2025 include"},{"t":4570,"text":"the adoption of the OCP and comprehensive zoning modernization, which"},{"t":4575,"text":"expanded housing opportunities citywide and embedded housing objectives directly into"},{"t":4580,"text":"Zoning. The City became one of the first municipalities in"},{"t":4584,"text":"British Columbia to adopt a tenant protection during redevelopment bylaw."},{"t":4589,"text":"Strengthening tenant protections, and seeking to mitigate the impacts of"},{"t":4593,"text":"displacement by ensuring fair treatment of tenants during residential redevelopment."},{"t":4599,"text":"Policy reforms were supported by development process improvements, increasing certainty"},{"t":4604,"text":"and reducing timelines for housing delivery. And the Community Safety"},{"t":4609,"text":"and Well Bean Plan was adopted in July of 2025,"},{"t":4613,"text":"promoting housing objectives for the most affordable end of the"},{"t":4615,"text":"housing continuum. Our record 1, 820 new homes were issued"},{"t":4624,"text":"building permits for construction in 2025. This is far above"},{"t":4629,"text":"the city's annual target of 1, 000 new homes per"},{"t":4632,"text":"year, as well as the 10 - year average. At"},{"t":4635,"text":"the end of 2025, roughly 2, 375 rental units were"},{"t":4640,"text":"under construction, demonstrating the significant number of purpose - built"},{"t":4644,"text":"rentals that have been issued permits over the last several"},{"t":4646,"text":"years. 102 missing middle homes were proposed in 2025, which"},{"t":4652,"text":"will add to the greatly needed supply of family -"},{"t":4655,"text":"friendly homes. Increases in housing supply contributed to greater choice"},{"t":4663,"text":"and improved mobility, particularly in the rental market. Roughly"},{"t":4672,"text":"two and a half times more than in 2024. This"},{"t":4676,"text":"is stained expansion of rental supply has contributed to the"},{"t":4680,"text":"primary rental vacancy rate, reaching its highest level since 1999"},{"t":4684,"text":"at 3. 2 percent. Representing a shift towards a more"},{"t":4688,"text":"balanced market and more choice for renters in 2025. Across"},{"t":4693,"text":"2024 and into the end of 2025, there was a"},{"t":4697,"text":"modest decline in monthly average rents for both one and"},{"t":4699,"text":"two bedroom units, and a decline of roughly three percent"},{"t":4703,"text":"in average rents for bachelor units. This is in line"},{"t":4707,"text":"with a national report finding that average asking rancing Canada"},{"t":4711,"text":"have been trending down. At the same time, three bedroom"},{"t":4716,"text":"units experienced a sharp rent increase, highlighting low supply and"},{"t":4720,"text":"a strong demand for family - friendly units. Another indication"},{"t":4727,"text":"of the rental market easing is the level of mobility"},{"t":4730,"text":"in the rental market. Turnover reached its highest point since"},{"t":4734,"text":"2019, supported by strong growth and purpose - built rental"},{"t":4738,"text":"supply. Indicating increased renter mobility. The moving penalty fell from"},{"t":4744,"text":"around 40 percent in 2024 to improved rental conditions and"},{"t":4751,"text":"more competitive rents in vacant units. However, limited three bedroom"},{"t":4756,"text":"and larger supply continues to restrict mobility for Bigger households."},{"t":4766,"text":"Victoria Supply of Affordable Housing continued to grow in 2025."},{"t":4771,"text":"One Affordable Building was completed, adding 158 new apartments, suites,"},{"t":4777,"text":"and townhelms. Although fewer affordable housing projects were approved in"},{"t":4782,"text":"2025 than in previous years, the City continues to advance"},{"t":4786,"text":"a strong development pipeline, with eight projects under construction and"},{"t":4790,"text":"four additional projects under staff review in 2025. Given persistent"},{"t":4796,"text":"wait list for affordable housing and significant rates of core"},{"t":4799,"text":"housing need, the City must continue to encourage partnerships and"},{"t":4802,"text":"investment in new non - market housing to create the"},{"t":4805,"text":"next wave of affordable unit. Victoria's ownership market showed stability"},{"t":4813,"text":"throughout 2025, even as major city centres faced challenges. While"},{"t":4818,"text":"the market stabilized for condominiums and increased slightly for townhomes,"},{"t":4823,"text":"single - family home prices increased and moved closer to"},{"t":4826,"text":"the 2022 peak. Reflecting ongoing demand for ground - oriented"},{"t":4830,"text":"housing. The condo market faced fewer investors and reduced speculative"},{"t":4835,"text":"activity, as well as high interest rates. However, strata projects"},{"t":4840,"text":"are moving forward in amenity - rich neighbourhoods where there"},{"t":4844,"text":"is greater demand for various types of buyers. This report"},{"t":4851,"text":"marks the completion of the sixth and final year of"},{"t":4854,"text":"the housing strategies housing targets. The overall target was exceeded,"},{"t":4858,"text":"as were many sub - targets highlighted in the table."},{"t":4862,"text":"Strong performance was driven in part by the market rental"},{"t":4865,"text":"category, where the target was nearly doubled, underscoring the city's"},{"t":4869,"text":"sustained commitment to supporting renters. The Affordable Target reached 90"},{"t":4874,"text":"percent completion and exceeded the very low - income target."},{"t":4880,"text":"Progress toward low and median income housing remained more limited"},{"t":4884,"text":"underscoring persistent funding challenges for housing, serving these earners. The"},{"t":4888,"text":"Strata Housing Target was exceeded in 2024 and grew to"},{"t":4892,"text":"136 percent of the target in 2025. While the target"},{"t":4897,"text":"for home suitable for families was also surpassed, continued efforts"},{"t":4901,"text":"are needed to secure homes with three or more bedrooms."},{"t":4906,"text":"The missing middle housing target was not met within the"},{"t":4908,"text":"six - year timeframe. However, recent OCP and Zoning updates,"},{"t":4913,"text":"along with development process improvements, are expected to support increased"},{"t":4916,"text":"delivery of this housing type. Phase two of the housing"},{"t":4926,"text":"strategy provided guidance and metrics to the end of 2025."},{"t":4930,"text":"Over the past decades, the city implemented Foundational Actions introduced"},{"t":4934,"text":"new policy tools and advanced major regulatory reforms that have"},{"t":4939,"text":"reshaped how housing is planned, approved, and delivered. With phase"},{"t":4944,"text":"two now complete, the City is beginning to work on"},{"t":4946,"text":"the next 10 - year housing strategy, proposed in this"},{"t":4950,"text":"next section. The next strategy will establish a refreshed approach"},{"t":4959,"text":"to guide progress towards safe, affordable, and attainable housing across"},{"t":4962,"text":"the continuum. In line with the OCP's direction to maintain"},{"t":4966,"text":"a responsive up - to - date housing strategy. Importantly,"},{"t":4970,"text":"the housing strategy does not replace or duplicate OCP policy."},{"t":4975,"text":"It is guided and informed by the OCP, translating its"},{"t":4978,"text":"direction into implementation, priorities to targets and actions. It will"},{"t":4984,"text":"also better align housing priorities and targets with the OCP,"},{"t":4988,"text":"housing needs reports, community safety and well - being plan,"},{"t":4991,"text":"and reporting cycles. While strengthening the Cities approach to monitoring"},{"t":4995,"text":"prioritization and long - term implementation. The development of the"},{"t":5004,"text":"2026 - 2035 housing strategy is proposed to be structured"},{"t":5008,"text":"as a phased work program progressing from research and alignment"},{"t":5011,"text":"to consultation, strategy development, and approval. Phase 1 focuses on"},{"t":5019,"text":"background research, policy alignment, preparation of emerging strategic directions and"},{"t":5025,"text":"council endorsement. Phase 2 emphasizes targeted engagement and refinement of"},{"t":5031,"text":"strategic directions. Phase 3 centres on drafting, final review, establishment"},{"t":5037,"text":"of monitoring and reporting approaches, and presentation of the updated"},{"t":5041,"text":"housing strategy to council for approval. Feedback from phase 2"},{"t":5050,"text":"of the housing strategy and robust engagement during the OCP"},{"t":5053,"text":"update has helped to identify key themes for the next"},{"t":5056,"text":"strategy. These will guide actions to improve housing stability across"},{"t":5060,"text":"the continuum from homelessness prevention to long - term housing"},{"t":5063,"text":"forms. Staff will continue to refine these themes through research"},{"t":5069,"text":"and targeted engagement in the next phase. Annual tracking of"},{"t":5079,"text":"housing targets has supported accountability and informed acidity policy responses."},{"t":5086,"text":"A new housing needs report based on 2026 census data"},{"t":5090,"text":"will be completed in 2028 and inform updated five -"},{"t":5093,"text":"year goalposts aligned with the next 10 - year housing"},{"t":5096,"text":"strategy. In the interim, staff proposed three - year housing"},{"t":5100,"text":"goalposts from 2026 to 2028 to maintain accountability and continuity"},{"t":5105,"text":"on reporting and monitoring. These proposed goalposts respond to Council"},{"t":5111,"text":"Feedback by simplifying and aligning targets with the interim housing"},{"t":5115,"text":"needs report, OCP goalposts, and provincial targets through 2028. The"},{"t":5121,"text":"shift from targets to the proposed goalposts aligns with the"},{"t":5124,"text":"OCP and reflects the city's role as an approval authority"},{"t":5128,"text":"recognising that housing delivery is influenced by broader external factors."},{"t":5138,"text":"Over the past decade, the City has made significant progress,"},{"t":5142,"text":"expanding housing supply, advancing policy reforms, strengthening tenant protections, and"},{"t":5147,"text":"achieving its six - year housing targets. These results reflect"},{"t":5151,"text":"both tangible outcomes and the foundation laid for continued action."},{"t":5155,"text":"However, housing affordability challenges persist, particularly for low and moderate"},{"t":5160,"text":"income households. And housing remains a critical priority requiring sustained"},{"t":5165,"text":"focus partnership and monitoring. The foundings of this report will"},{"t":5169,"text":"inform the next 10 - year housing strategy and support"},{"t":5172,"text":"councils continued efforts alongside the proposed housing goalposts to align"},{"t":5177,"text":"monitoring in the interim. To conclude, staff recommend that council"},{"t":5185,"text":"receive the 2025 housing strategy annual review for information, approved"},{"t":5190,"text":"the proposed interim housing goalposts and endorsed the approach to"},{"t":5194,"text":"the next 10 - year housing strategy. Thank you, and"},{"t":5198,"text":"I now welcome your questions. Thank you very much for"},{"t":5200,"text":"that. Uh, we'll consider these all as a package unless"},{"t":5203,"text":"someone requests any of them to be chucked out to"},{"t":5206,"text":"be considered individually, but it seems to me that they're"},{"t":5209,"text":"proudly comprehensive and complementary. So without that request, we'll vote"},{"t":5213,"text":"eventually on all three of them together. That will also"},{"t":5215,"text":"mean though that we can have questions about all of"},{"t":5218,"text":"them. So let's start with that. Questions regarding. Thank you"},{"t":5223,"text":"Mayor, and depending on the answers and the questions, I"},{"t":5226,"text":"may ask that the 3b Severed. Sure. Uh, and thank"},{"t":5229,"text":"you very much for the presentation. And you added some"},{"t":5231,"text":"more information that I didn't see in the report, and"},{"t":5233,"text":"that's always useful. Not sure if I captured it at"},{"t":5236,"text":"all. Anyway, I'm going to ask a couple unusual questions"},{"t":5238,"text":"first, because... Just because it refers to a real person."},{"t":5245,"text":"And what's wrong about name, of course. In need of"},{"t":5247,"text":"housing. And while this is anecdotal for you, it's real"},{"t":5250,"text":"for her. And, uh, divorced two young children. Income less"},{"t":5254,"text":"than probably 20, 000 at this point, uh, but she"},{"t":5257,"text":"of course got some asset from the sale of a"},{"t":5259,"text":"condo. So she doesn't meet the deep subsidy. Or minimum,"},{"t":5264,"text":"you know, because of the asset. And she doesn't meet"},{"t":5268,"text":"the minimum threshold for affordable housing, because she doesn't make"},{"t":5271,"text":"enough money. And so where do people like this go."},{"t":5277,"text":"That's a big question. Anyone like to try and take"},{"t":5280,"text":"that one. Through the mayor. Relevance of that question to"},{"t":5287,"text":"this topic is how does that person, how do you"},{"t":5289,"text":"see that person fitting into all these ideas? Yeah, through"},{"t":5294,"text":"the merit, I think. Yeah, so it's, I guess it's"},{"t":5299,"text":"somewhat a unique situation where someone would have. Be an"},{"t":5308,"text":"income that would be at that deep subsidy, but then"},{"t":5311,"text":"also have assets that would be significant, I guess, from"},{"t":5316,"text":"essay hell of a condo. I think the intent of"},{"t":5322,"text":"those deep subsidy units that often are included either within"},{"t":5327,"text":"a community housing fund type project are really looking to"},{"t":5332,"text":"serve, you know, people who maybe are at greater risk"},{"t":5336,"text":"of homelessness or being on housed. Um, and people who"},{"t":5340,"text":"may not have any assets to be able to speak"},{"t":5343,"text":"to, and maybe on a very modest fixed income or"},{"t":5348,"text":"on disability or something to that effect. Uh, that being"},{"t":5351,"text":"said, it certainly sounds like a very precarious situation that"},{"t":5355,"text":"this person is in. And I think it does highlight."},{"t":5361,"text":"The imperfect nature of our social housing system and that"},{"t":5365,"text":"there are, you know, fundamentally these different forms of housing,"},{"t":5370,"text":"whether it be deep subsidy, whether it be RGI, whether"},{"t":5373,"text":"it be near market, ultimately have to be, you know,"},{"t":5378,"text":"codified and identified for the people who are at the"},{"t":5382,"text":"greatest need for those units. So I mean, I think"},{"t":5385,"text":"at the end of the day, with like the city"},{"t":5387,"text":"doesn't design these programs, but certainly, um, you know, there's."},{"t":5394,"text":"You know, there is certainly a need for more units"},{"t":5397,"text":"that serve that low end of the continuum. Uh, and"},{"t":5401,"text":"that requires significant partnership with groups such as, you know,"},{"t":5404,"text":"the provincial and federal government. Thank you. And I, uh,"},{"t":5408,"text":"whoops. They're still on. Uh, thank you. And I don't"},{"t":5411,"text":"think this is as rare as people think. You know,"},{"t":5414,"text":"divorces or relatively young mother left with two kids and"},{"t":5417,"text":"doesn't have a permanent job. Uh, I think, and that"},{"t":5420,"text":"really worries me, especially since we saw all the CRD"},{"t":5422,"text":"advertising for all this housing that she couldn't even apply"},{"t":5425,"text":"for. It's quite worrisome because once you're into some of"},{"t":5430,"text":"the social housing, you can stay no matter what your"},{"t":5432,"text":"income is. Or whatever asset you have. But yet someone"},{"t":5435,"text":"who is struggling and raising kids, I always worry about"},{"t":5439,"text":"kids. I just find very problematic. Anyway, next question. The"},{"t":5443,"text":"figure one focused on the 2020 data. I think you"},{"t":5447,"text":"stated was dating the report. And during consideration of the"},{"t":5452,"text":"OCP 2050, the data use became an N issue. As"},{"t":5456,"text":"population projections from Ireland Health having significantly lower. And the"},{"t":5460,"text":"National Projections were lowering towards the end of 2024. And"},{"t":5464,"text":"for the lowering during 2025. So during the OCP 2050"},{"t":5470,"text":"discussions, the issue, as a set of stale or updated"},{"t":5473,"text":"population projections was raised. But the plan was not altered."},{"t":5476,"text":"Now you have just mentioned, when you discuss the interim"},{"t":5480,"text":"strategy, number two, that you're going to be basing it"},{"t":5483,"text":"on old data, I believe, until the new downer from"},{"t":5487,"text":"2025 comes in. Is that correct? That's Montgomery. Through the"},{"t":5493,"text":"mayor, so the proposed goalposts are based on the 20"},{"t":5498,"text":"year OCP goalpost at the, um, the high end. So"},{"t":5503,"text":"that is correct. It's based on, um, data that was"},{"t":5506,"text":"used for those EP calculation for the goalpost. Sorry. It's"},{"t":5509,"text":"based on the old data. Through the mirror, it's based"},{"t":5514,"text":"on the data that was used to inform the OCP."},{"t":5517,"text":"Yeah. And so we're going forward with data that we"},{"t":5520,"text":"know was high. Is that, is that what the interim"},{"t":5525,"text":"is going to be doing or will there be adjustments"},{"t":5527,"text":"if we get more data or third. Through the mirror,"},{"t":5532,"text":"that's, that's part of the intent of why we framed"},{"t":5534,"text":"them as goalposts. So we've given ourselves a bit of"},{"t":5536,"text":"a broader range to look at, recognising that there is"},{"t":5540,"text":"a range of external factors outside the city's control that,"},{"t":5544,"text":"that impact the delivery of housing. Um, and recognising that,"},{"t":5549,"text":"um. Over the near term, there may be slight changes"},{"t":5552,"text":"in external policy, such as migration. Um, but still recognising"},{"t":5556,"text":"that we are, we do have that stretch goal of"},{"t":5560,"text":"the OCP goalpost that is a, is a long -"},{"t":5563,"text":"term goal that, um, that reflects things such as latent"},{"t":5566,"text":"demand as well as, you know, historical patterns around immigration"},{"t":5570,"text":"and things like that. So, uh, yeah, there's, there is,"},{"t":5575,"text":"we're continuing to rely on the data that was used"},{"t":5578,"text":"for the OCP as well as the interim housing needs"},{"t":5580,"text":"report, but we're also framing them as goalposts to give"},{"t":5583,"text":"ourselves a bit more flexibility and recognition that there are"},{"t":5587,"text":"short - term changes with different policies that may impact"},{"t":5590,"text":"our ability to deliver the upper end of that housing."},{"t":5594,"text":"Okay. So that would be the 2020 data. And when"},{"t":5597,"text":"you look at the lower estimates on your annual, I'm"},{"t":5599,"text":"looking at the gold posts under attachment B. So that"},{"t":5602,"text":"would reflect what in the data that you use for"},{"t":5607,"text":"2020. Because that 2020 was so much higher. But I"},{"t":5611,"text":"think a greater percentage than I see in your spread."},{"t":5614,"text":"So that's what I'm concerned about. Just I think part"},{"t":5620,"text":"of the, um, consideration of your reply might be to"},{"t":5624,"text":"consider whether or not, uh. I heard an assertion in"},{"t":5628,"text":"the question that you may or may not agree with."},{"t":5631,"text":"So I feel free to respond how you like. Yeah."},{"t":5635,"text":"Through the mayor, at this point in time, our long"},{"t":5638,"text":"- term goalposts for housing are identified in the OCP."},{"t":5642,"text":"So we're continuing to work off of that long -"},{"t":5645,"text":"term goalpost. And then we've created an interim goalpost for"},{"t":5649,"text":"the next three years. Um, that harmonizes with that and"},{"t":5653,"text":"that reflects direction we perceive from council looking at how"},{"t":5656,"text":"do we align with our OCP? How do we align"},{"t":5659,"text":"with our provincial housing targets? Um, and how do we"},{"t":5662,"text":"align our sort of housing strategy sort of goals for"},{"t":5666,"text":"housing with those, those other targets that we have in"},{"t":5669,"text":"place. So really, I think what we've tried to do"},{"t":5671,"text":"is we've tried to harmonize around those different, um, kind"},{"t":5674,"text":"of housing goals and created these interim goal posts. And"},{"t":5678,"text":"we continue to work with the most recent documents that"},{"t":5682,"text":"the city has adopted for our housing need, which include"},{"t":5685,"text":"the OCP and the interim housing needs report. Um, and"},{"t":5690,"text":"those are, those are sort of, you know, key corporate"},{"t":5694,"text":"documents that identify our housing need. Um, and there we"},{"t":5699,"text":"will continue to monitor and review and update that and"},{"t":5704,"text":"take the opportunity when the new data comes from the"},{"t":5707,"text":"census, uh, and integrate that into the 2028 housing needs"},{"t":5711,"text":"report. Thank you. And again, um, attachment B. Ownership is"},{"t":5717,"text":"a lower number. When I'm looking at it, uh, and"},{"t":5720,"text":"we now know from data provided two is by planning"},{"t":5724,"text":"a few months ago. Well, I guess it was in"},{"t":5726,"text":"December. That on ownership, especially on"},{"t":5736,"text":"condominiums that twenty nine percent or higher in fact. And"},{"t":5742,"text":"if we take that into account, are we therefore looking"},{"t":5744,"text":"at your interim housing goals. Which is soured."},{"t":5754,"text":"Through the mayor. If I understand the question, um, I"},{"t":5759,"text":"don't think we have any, the level of certainty that"},{"t":5763,"text":"housing that is created as ownership housing, whether it be"},{"t":5768,"text":"Strata or townhouse or single detached housing will end up"},{"t":5773,"text":"in the secondary market. We have seen historically, we've seen"},{"t":5776,"text":"maybe higher levels of housing in the secondary market partially"},{"t":5781,"text":"in response to the fact that we were not building"},{"t":5782,"text":"a lot of purpose - built rental for many decades"},{"t":5785,"text":"there. So, um, I don't know. Generally, we haven't been"},{"t":5789,"text":"making any sort of major assumptions around the degree to"},{"t":5795,"text":"which, uh, ownership housing would end up in the secondary"},{"t":5798,"text":"market. And, you know, also, I think what we are"},{"t":5801,"text":"seeing is with ownership housing that's been developed over the"},{"t":5804,"text":"last year, uh, we're seeing maybe a greater proportion of"},{"t":5808,"text":"that being, um, coming forward through things such as ground"},{"t":5811,"text":"oriented housing in terms of missing middle and maybe also,"},{"t":5816,"text":"so maybe that's also less likely to be, uh, purchased"},{"t":5819,"text":"for secondary rental, um, yeah, I think generally we're seeing,"},{"t":5825,"text":"uh, the ownership housing is more serving kind of end"},{"t":5828,"text":"users. Thank you and I appreciate you just mentioned the"},{"t":5831,"text":"missing middle housing. And while we keep referring to family"},{"t":5836,"text":"housing and especially with missing middle, a lot of them"},{"t":5839,"text":"are just narrow townhouses, I know, because my daughter is"},{"t":5842,"text":"in one, which is really tricky with all the stairs."},{"t":5845,"text":"But in Victoria, just staff of any idea as to"},{"t":5849,"text":"the uptake of this type of family dwellings by actual"},{"t":5852,"text":"family with kids, or they being bought by others. And"},{"t":5856,"text":"I'm thinking of, I don't know what that's Samuel Flats"},{"t":5858,"text":"and Vic West is like. And those kinds of things,"},{"t":5861,"text":"are we actually getting families. Is it sour? Do you"},{"t":5865,"text":"know that? Uh, through the mayor, I think that's probably"},{"t":5870,"text":"something we would maybe look to dig into more, um,"},{"t":5873,"text":"with the new census data that comes out in the"},{"t":5876,"text":"coming years. Um, I think, you know, it's, I would"},{"t":5881,"text":"probably be more something to talk to folks on the"},{"t":5884,"text":"development community as they've brought forward their, you know, brought"},{"t":5889,"text":"forward recent projects. I can, I can speak personally. I"},{"t":5892,"text":"live in a missing middle kind of townhouse project. And"},{"t":5896,"text":"I've recently welcomed a child into, into my family. And"},{"t":5900,"text":"the six or seven other households that have families in"},{"t":5902,"text":"that missing middle housing. So I do think it's a"},{"t":5906,"text":"viable alternative for people who are looking for ground oriented"},{"t":5910,"text":"housing and have families. Thank you. Um, how many House"},{"t":5913,"text":"and units are currently receiving tax exemption, including status of"},{"t":5918,"text":"some kind, including affordable housing market revitalization and heritage. Does"},{"t":5922,"text":"anyone have any idea of how many are getting tax"},{"t":5925,"text":"exemption. Who would like to try and take that. Oh,"},{"t":5932,"text":"I'm seeing some finance people leaning into their mics. Yes."},{"t":5951,"text":"Uh, good morning Leila Monk, manager of revenue. And through"},{"t":5954,"text":"the mayor in 2025, there were 53 properties that were"},{"t":5959,"text":"classified as class three, supportive housing. Which means that they're"},{"t":5964,"text":"landed improvements are not to a nominal amount of a"},{"t":5968,"text":"dollar each. Through the city's permissive tax exemption program. There"},{"t":5975,"text":"were. 29 properties that received a tax exemption under the"},{"t":5983,"text":"support of housing category. Thank you. Do we have any"},{"t":5987,"text":"idea how many units of housing were in those 53"},{"t":5989,"text":"properties or the 29 properties. Ms. Munk. Through the mayor,"},{"t":5998,"text":"we do not have that data, but, uh, planning, uh,"},{"t":6002,"text":"may have that information. I look to one of our"},{"t":6007,"text":"able planning staff for that one. And at this point"},{"t":6013,"text":"in time, I don't think we would have the exact"},{"t":6015,"text":"number of units that are in the, in those support"},{"t":6018,"text":"housing projects, but, um, we can certainly circle back and"},{"t":6023,"text":"provide counsel with, um, with some more detailed data. I"},{"t":6026,"text":"think, uh, thank you. I certainly appreciate that. Um, okay."},{"t":6031,"text":"In the report, you mentioned 926 930 Pandora with 158"},{"t":6036,"text":"affordable homes and homelessness support. And, um, so can you"},{"t":6040,"text":"please clarify what that means and is illicit drug use"},{"t":6044,"text":"to be supported. Mr. Sauer, do you know any more"},{"t":6049,"text":"details about the, uh, activities in the proposed 926, 930"},{"t":6054,"text":"facility? Through the mayor, I think it's more, uh, just"},{"t":6058,"text":"speaking to the fact that the project is a mix."},{"t":6060,"text":"So it has, um, has a, I believe it's roughly"},{"t":6065,"text":"150 some odd units that are, uh, subsidized housing that"},{"t":6068,"text":"would be sort of supported through Community Housing Fund type"},{"t":6071,"text":"project. So that's going to be sort of a mix"},{"t":6073,"text":"of income from very low deep subsidy units up to"},{"t":6075,"text":"sort of near market units. That would be operated by"},{"t":6078,"text":"the CRD. Uh, I don't have the exact number, uh,"},{"t":6084,"text":"rate off the top of my head, but I believe"},{"t":6086,"text":"it's 40 or 50 units that would then also be"},{"t":6088,"text":"included in the project that our supportive housing that would"},{"t":6091,"text":"be operated by, uh, a different nonprofit operator, uh, which"},{"t":6095,"text":"I think is still to be determined. And those would"},{"t":6098,"text":"be housing with supports for, for people dealing, you know,"},{"t":6103,"text":"at risk of homelessness. Um, but I don't know the"},{"t":6106,"text":"exact level of, um, you know, on - site supports"},{"t":6110,"text":"that would be developed that would be something that would"},{"t":6112,"text":"be determined based on sort of BC housing and the"},{"t":6115,"text":"operator and place. So I would, I would defer maybe"},{"t":6118,"text":"to other staff, if I know Sarah Web is on"},{"t":6122,"text":"the line, uh, assistant director web if she has anything"},{"t":6124,"text":"to add to that. But I believe at this point"},{"t":6126,"text":"in time from like the housing perspective, that's probably, well,"},{"t":6130,"text":"I would say. Not seeing anyone join online."},{"t":6140,"text":"Oh, well, Ms. Webb, go ahead. Uh, through the mayor,"},{"t":6143,"text":"I would agree with, um, Manager Soward. We would rather"},{"t":6146,"text":"wait until we have further progress on the award of"},{"t":6149,"text":"the support of housing program in the design of that."},{"t":6152,"text":"And we'd be happy to report back to Council on"},{"t":6154,"text":"that. Thank you. Okay. So, so it's unknown answer as"},{"t":6157,"text":"to whether or not this is a drugs would be"},{"t":6160,"text":"the only yesterday just by chance. I always ask about"},{"t":6163,"text":"the cost of 926 930 Pandora. So what was the"},{"t":6167,"text":"design and renovation cost and who paid for what. Mr."},{"t":6172,"text":"Seward. Through the mayor, um, the design and renovation cost,"},{"t":6180,"text":"uh, so this is, we're talking about 926930, the new"},{"t":6184,"text":"build. Yeah. Okay. Um, yeah, through the mayor, uh, I"},{"t":6189,"text":"don't have the exact budget. Of that project on hand."},{"t":6195,"text":"And the city's receiving funding from, um, you know, the"},{"t":6201,"text":"city brought forward land and helped to facilitate the funding"},{"t":6205,"text":"partnership there. Um, the project to my understanding is being"},{"t":6209,"text":"funded by BC housing, uh, and then we'll be, uh,"},{"t":6213,"text":"operated by the CRD. So, um, I don't, yeah, I"},{"t":6218,"text":"don't have that, that budget information off the top of"},{"t":6220,"text":"my head. I'm not sure if someone from the real"},{"t":6223,"text":"estate team, Strategic Real Estate, uh, may want to chime"},{"t":6227,"text":"in or add to that. But, um, certainly the capital"},{"t":6231,"text":"budget would be supported by BC housing as well as"},{"t":6234,"text":"an ongoing operating subsidy. We'd be provided and capital grants"},{"t":6237,"text":"would have also been, would have been provided by BC"},{"t":6239,"text":"housing to drive the deep affordability at the project. Okay."},{"t":6242,"text":"Thank you. And of course no property tag on City"},{"t":6245,"text":"properly. Correct. Thompson, is that correct? Or is Monk."},{"t":6255,"text":"Uh, my apologies. Could you repeat the question? It's a"},{"t":6258,"text":"question of whether or not the new facility at 926,"},{"t":6261,"text":"930 Pandora will be property tax exam. Through the mayor,"},{"t":6268,"text":"it will depend in the end. So, uh, BC housing"},{"t":6274,"text":"properties are exempt, but we get a payment in lieu"},{"t":6277,"text":"of taxes. Um, and in some cases, if the operator"},{"t":6281,"text":"is, uh, and I know that CRD or the housing"},{"t":6285,"text":"corporation is involved as well. So I'm not totally sure"},{"t":6288,"text":"about the structure. If it is as CRHC, they would"},{"t":6292,"text":"be exempt. And there would be no, uh, payments in"},{"t":6296,"text":"lieu of taxes either. Um, and, um, so it's a"},{"t":6300,"text":"little bit, um, complicated at the moment to figure out"},{"t":6304,"text":"exactly how BC assessment will look at it. Great. So"},{"t":6307,"text":"when we have some idea as to the costs and"},{"t":6309,"text":"as to the operating model, what time period are we"},{"t":6313,"text":"looking out to get that information that I've asked for."},{"t":6315,"text":"Mr. Rantucci, I see you leaning into that one. Through,"},{"t":6318,"text":"through the mayor. Um, we can come back with the"},{"t":6321,"text":"costing. We just need to go back on our records"},{"t":6325,"text":"here in the total cost of the project. In terms"},{"t":6327,"text":"of the operating model that as staff has said, that'll"},{"t":6332,"text":"be dependent on, um, or I'm sorry, the operator of"},{"t":6336,"text":"the supportive housing will be dependent on BC housings, um,"},{"t":6341,"text":"uh, RFP when they go out to seek, uh, an"},{"t":6345,"text":"operator. And we would be able to give them further"},{"t":6347,"text":"update at that time. Great. Do we have a timeframe."},{"t":6351,"text":"Through the mayor? Uh, we'll get back to you with"},{"t":6354,"text":"that. Cost in time frame. Okay. Thank you. Um. On"},{"t":6363,"text":"page 11 of the report, there's reference to the Community"},{"t":6367,"text":"Safety and Wellbeing Plan. And gaps in delivery. Which I"},{"t":6371,"text":"found interesting. But what wasn't mentioned was the gap in"},{"t":6375,"text":"healthcare and therapeutic treatment. Is that covered anywhere in this"},{"t":6379,"text":"report? I realised it feers onto health as opposed to"},{"t":6383,"text":"housing, but is it acknowledged or did I miss it?"},{"t":6385,"text":"Because I could have missed it in the documents. Mr."},{"t":6389,"text":"Sehrk? I threw the mayor. I think that was just"},{"t":6391,"text":"a road of the scope of this report recognising that"},{"t":6393,"text":"this is about housing. And so there's overlap. And with"},{"t":6397,"text":"the Community Safety well - beam plan and the sort"},{"t":6400,"text":"of housing strategy with respect to some of the housing"},{"t":6403,"text":"components of the Community Safety and well - being planned,"},{"t":6405,"text":"but we've intentionally not waited into sort of the topics"},{"t":6411,"text":"of healthcare for the purposes of this one. Okay. There's"},{"t":6413,"text":"much I talk about latent demand for rental housing. What"},{"t":6417,"text":"do you think would be the latent demand for home"},{"t":6419,"text":"ownership. Mr. Seller. Through the mayor, you know, layton demand"},{"t":6428,"text":"is. A, um, is a sort of a, as a"},{"t":6431,"text":"number that we've generally estimated and generally looked to talk"},{"t":6437,"text":"about at sort of more of a higher level. I"},{"t":6440,"text":"think it's challenging to start to, uh, break down latent"},{"t":6445,"text":"demand into really sort of granular component parts. We've tended"},{"t":6451,"text":"to look at sort of, uh, a high level latent"},{"t":6455,"text":"demand number of a sort of a range of kind"},{"t":6457,"text":"of eight to nine thousand units is what we've spoken"},{"t":6459,"text":"to. And so certainly, um, there would be components of"},{"t":6464,"text":"that latent demand that would probably need to be, uh,"},{"t":6467,"text":"serving the ownership market. There would be components of that"},{"t":6471,"text":"latent demand that would need to serve the rental market."},{"t":6473,"text":"There would be components that would need to supportive housing"},{"t":6477,"text":"and subsidize housing. So I think there is certainly is"},{"t":6480,"text":"needs across the continue. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just having trouble"},{"t":6484,"text":"that we have specific numbers in one hand or rental"},{"t":6486,"text":"and not on the other. And yet we're trying to"},{"t":6488,"text":"put it into one document. So I just worry. Now"},{"t":6491,"text":"what proportion, um, of the housing reserve draws have been"},{"t":6495,"text":"for projects being done by other levels of government. Because"},{"t":6499,"text":"I saw that one list, which I found quite interesting."},{"t":6502,"text":"Do we have a real handle in that. Mr. Seller?"},{"t":6506,"text":"Through the mayor, um, the nature of the projects that"},{"t":6511,"text":"apply from the house housing reserve fund as typically nonprofit,"},{"t":6518,"text":"uh, housing providers who are applying for, uh, to applying"},{"t":6524,"text":"to the city to secure funding that helps them leverage"},{"t":6529,"text":"funding from other levels of government, including, you know, BC"},{"t":6534,"text":"housing or CMHC. And fundamentally the sort of subsidized, the"},{"t":6539,"text":"subsidized component of subsidized housing doesn't happen without the federal"},{"t":6544,"text":"or provincial partnership. So I would say almost all of"},{"t":6548,"text":"the projects that have applied to the Victoria housing reserve"},{"t":6551,"text":"fund would be some kind of partnership with another level"},{"t":6554,"text":"of government. Yeah. Cause in the list, I saw a"},{"t":6556,"text":"lot of CRD, which means we're already paying for CRD."},{"t":6561,"text":"And so we're kind of getting a couple of wommy"},{"t":6564,"text":"there. So that's what was I was concerned about. Okay."},{"t":6566,"text":"Interim goal post. I think we all discussed that the"},{"t":6571,"text":"targets are based on OCP 2050. Okay. Okay. Hang on."},{"t":6576,"text":"I think I want to get a couple more questions,"},{"t":6578,"text":"Mio. Oh yes. So this is with especially the 10"},{"t":6585,"text":"year housing strategy. Given the high proportion of residents with"},{"t":6589,"text":"mobility challenges in our aging population will accessibility targets ever"},{"t":6594,"text":"be created. Or was it going to be too late"},{"t":6596,"text":"or is it baby boomers all going to be dead"},{"t":6598,"text":"before we get there. Uh, we didn't see anything about"},{"t":6601,"text":"real accessibility targets in here. And I don't mean adaptability."},{"t":6605,"text":"So we don't seem to have any accessibility. Are we"},{"t":6607,"text":"looking at that? Mr. Sir. Uh, through the mayor. It's"},{"t":6613,"text":"a good question. Um, certainly it can be something that"},{"t":6616,"text":"we can, uh, explore further with, uh, with the housing"},{"t":6621,"text":"needs report. Um, that will be required to do as"},{"t":6624,"text":"part of the new legislative requirements. And using the more"},{"t":6628,"text":"updated, uh, sense of data that would be coming out"},{"t":6632,"text":"in the coming years. Um, you know, for the interim"},{"t":6637,"text":"housing goalposts, we did really look to curve more align"},{"t":6642,"text":"to the sort of high level, um, categories that are"},{"t":6645,"text":"identified in like the OCP and the, and the term"},{"t":6647,"text":"housing needs report. And so we didn't get into that"},{"t":6649,"text":"level of granularity in terms of accessibility, uh, targets. Um,"},{"t":6654,"text":"but that, that could be, you know, that's sort of"},{"t":6658,"text":"a level of analysis that would probably be well suited"},{"t":6659,"text":"for that, that next housing needs report, which will be"},{"t":6661,"text":"a much more fulsome analysis. Thank you. Uh, early engagement"},{"t":6666,"text":"is mentioned. Will advisory groups include neighbourhood associations. Mr. Sauer."},{"t":6677,"text":"Through the mayor at this point, um, we've largely been"},{"t":6679,"text":"thinking, uh, our focus would be more on groups with"},{"t":6684,"text":"serve subject matter expertise with housing. I'm not sure if,"},{"t":6689,"text":"uh. Ms. Montgomery has anything to add in terms of"},{"t":6693,"text":"sort of some of the, the, the parties that we've"},{"t":6697,"text":"kind of identified is kind of Community partners with respect"},{"t":6701,"text":"to housing. Montgomery. Through the mayor, that's correct. I will"},{"t":6707,"text":"just add that we are also thinking of, um, nonprofit"},{"t":6710,"text":"housing providers, um, sort of tenant advocates, um, developers and"},{"t":6717,"text":"other organisations working on housing sort of across the continuum."},{"t":6722,"text":"So just to confirm the Community Partners are those who"},{"t":6724,"text":"are building the housing and advocacy groups, but not necessarily"},{"t":6730,"text":"our taxpayers. Would that be. A special interest groups are"},{"t":6735,"text":"running this or controlling this engagement. Through the mayor, you"},{"t":6744,"text":"know, we did a lot of consultation on housing with"},{"t":6747,"text":"the public during the OCP. So we certainly heard from"},{"t":6750,"text":"the public that housing continues to be very important. Um,"},{"t":6753,"text":"so at a high level, you know, we have heard"},{"t":6755,"text":"from the public already. So I think what we're proposing"},{"t":6758,"text":"here is we just need to, you know, have conversations"},{"t":6761,"text":"with, um, housing providers, people who actually build and deliver"},{"t":6765,"text":"the housing. But the intent is that as we move"},{"t":6770,"text":"sort of through the process and as some policies start"},{"t":6773,"text":"to shape up in some strategies start to shape up,"},{"t":6776,"text":"we do want to bring this out to the public"},{"t":6779,"text":"just to have their input as well. So, so that"},{"t":6782,"text":"would be later on in the project. Yes, I'd seen"},{"t":6788,"text":"that. Okay. I'll just get what myself had note. Well,"},{"t":6798,"text":"staff be considering the residential property tax impacts as these"},{"t":6802,"text":"themes are forwarded. Cause I'm thinking again, remember I'd start"},{"t":6806,"text":"looking at that coryolist report for many years ago. And"},{"t":6809,"text":"really the impact on, um, who is paying taxes and"},{"t":6812,"text":"who is injury. Is that, as you develop these themes"},{"t":6815,"text":"is that shift, because we've seen this shift now, just"},{"t":6818,"text":"remember in the change from business to residential, are we"},{"t":6821,"text":"going to see even a greater shift, shall we say"},{"t":6824,"text":"into a certain types of, uh, residential housing compared to"},{"t":6828,"text":"others? Are we going to see a further shift. It's"},{"t":6832,"text":"just soured. Through the mayor, um, I think at this"},{"t":6840,"text":"point in time, I don't, I don't know if we"},{"t":6842,"text":"really have any kind of, if that's a really organising"},{"t":6846,"text":"principle for us, I think, uh, certainly there's, uh, and"},{"t":6850,"text":"acknowledgement that we need to kind of balance the financial"},{"t":6855,"text":"impacts of, um, of any recommendations that we bring forward."},{"t":6859,"text":"Also thinking about the recommendations in terms of the impacts"},{"t":6862,"text":"on the financial viability of housing. But, um, I think"},{"t":6866,"text":"it would be more of a broader higher level kind"},{"t":6869,"text":"of consideration as we draft recommendations related to the housing"},{"t":6873,"text":"strategy. But at this point in time, we're, we're just"},{"t":6876,"text":"looking for seeking direction to move forward with the development"},{"t":6879,"text":"of the strategy and we're always away from identifying new"},{"t":6884,"text":"projects or programs. And I would say that given the"},{"t":6888,"text":"amount of programs, initiatives and foundational policy and regulatory work"},{"t":6894,"text":"that we did under the last housing strategy, it's probably"},{"t":6897,"text":"more likely that this next housing strategy would have a"},{"t":6900,"text":"greater focus on maintaining, adapting, reviewing, uh, with some maybe"},{"t":6906,"text":"targeted focus areas for new policy or programs. Thank you,"},{"t":6910,"text":"Mayor. That's your questions right now. I may have commented"},{"t":6912,"text":"later or questions. Thank you. How much time do I"},{"t":6914,"text":"have left? You have fewer than two minutes left. Councillor"},{"t":6918,"text":"Loughton. Thanks, SentiUmer. I just wanted to ask a couple"},{"t":6924,"text":"more questions about, and I'll just use, um, Caledonia as"},{"t":6928,"text":"an example that the income rate to apply for that"},{"t":6936,"text":"was 50, 000. I just have some questions on how"},{"t":6939,"text":"that works. So there is deep subsidy in Caledonia as"},{"t":6944,"text":"well. So am I correct in that if someone is"},{"t":6947,"text":"earning less than 50, 000 in household income that they"},{"t":6950,"text":"could apply for one of the deep subsidy. Units, but"},{"t":6954,"text":"you have to make more than 50, 000 to apply"},{"t":6957,"text":"for the rent geared to income units? Do I have"},{"t":6960,"text":"that. Mr. Seller, I believe that's in your Bayley wick."},{"t":6966,"text":"Uh, through the mayor, I'm not sure of the exact,"},{"t":6972,"text":"um, my understanding is the rank geared to income units"},{"t":6975,"text":"would still be aligned with hills as the upper limit"},{"t":6979,"text":"of the income. Uh, but that in practice, it's often"},{"t":6984,"text":"people who have incomes fair bit below hills who are"},{"t":6988,"text":"actually occupying those units. Um, and then the, yeah, there"},{"t":6992,"text":"are 20 percent of the units at Caldonia that would"},{"t":6994,"text":"be the deep subsidy. But I think the, yeah, I"},{"t":6999,"text":"would have to double check on what the exact criteria"},{"t":7003,"text":"program criteria, but those are in terms of the limits."},{"t":7007,"text":"But certainly those are, you know, targeted for folks who,"},{"t":7010,"text":"you know, may have beyond, you know, disability or social"},{"t":7016,"text":"assistance rates. So that's really the deepest affordability that we"},{"t":7019,"text":"have within the provincial housing sector. Okay. Thanks for that."},{"t":7024,"text":"I just wanted to, and I can look into this"},{"t":7027,"text":"offline on my own too, but the question came up"},{"t":7029,"text":"from and it also, I've seen other people talking about"},{"t":7031,"text":"it online. What is hills. Apologies for the jargon and"},{"t":7038,"text":"acronyms. So, uh, heels is an acronym that stands for"},{"t":7042,"text":"housing income limits. Uh, and so for within the BC"},{"t":7048,"text":"housing subsidized housing programs, uh, generally, um, that is the,"},{"t":7055,"text":"um, income limit that gets reported on each year annually"},{"t":7059,"text":"and identifies the upper income limit that, um, the like"},{"t":7065,"text":"rent gear to income units can be rented out to"},{"t":7068,"text":"depending on the household size. So there's a income limit"},{"t":7071,"text":"for one bedroom unit. There's an income limit for a"},{"t":7075,"text":"two bedroom unit. There's a income limit for a three"},{"t":7077,"text":"bedroom unit. And that is the highest income that somebody"},{"t":7081,"text":"that a household that is looking to occupy, uh, rent"},{"t":7085,"text":"geared to income unit can have. But in practice often"},{"t":7089,"text":"what nonprofit operators have told me is that they often"},{"t":7092,"text":"assume that the household who's going to be in those"},{"t":7095,"text":"RGI units is going to have a fraction of that"},{"t":7099,"text":"income because there's a lot of folks who are looking"},{"t":7102,"text":"to access units within the substanties housing program that don't"},{"t":7106,"text":"have the income at the upper limit of the hills."},{"t":7109,"text":"That's the theoretical upper limit. But in practice, it may"},{"t":7112,"text":"be somebody who's earning 10, 20, 30, 000 dollars less"},{"t":7116,"text":"than what that hills income level is. And they're in"},{"t":7119,"text":"there because it could serve somebody from a low to"},{"t":7121,"text":"a median household income. But the, the hills, the housing"},{"t":7125,"text":"income limit is the sort of. That's the top in"},{"t":7130,"text":"terms of the income. But there's also a minimum. Too."},{"t":7134,"text":"Am I right about? Like you have, you can't make"},{"t":7136,"text":"more than X amount, but you have to make it"},{"t":7138,"text":"lease X amount. Or is that, I think that's where"},{"t":7143,"text":"some of the confusion. And maybe this isn't a conversation"},{"t":7145,"text":"for this for what we're doing today. But I think"},{"t":7148,"text":"there is some confusion about that in some of these"},{"t":7151,"text":"non - market housing projects. That there is a certain"},{"t":7154,"text":"amount you need to make before you can apply. Yeah."},{"t":7158,"text":"Through the mayor, I think there is a, there's probably"},{"t":7162,"text":"a threshold of, of what the minimum they need, those"},{"t":7166,"text":"units to pay in order to cover the overall, uh,"},{"t":7171,"text":"operating costs of the building. So there's a, there is"},{"t":7174,"text":"probably a range. And I just don't know off the"},{"t":7176,"text":"top of my head what that is for the BC"},{"t":7179,"text":"housing probably is adjusting it honestly for, for each project"},{"t":7182,"text":"based on like whatever the final, final costs are and"},{"t":7187,"text":"what the unit types are. And so we could, we"},{"t":7191,"text":"could circle back on that and try to get maybe"},{"t":7193,"text":"some more detailed information for what the exact limits were"},{"t":7197,"text":"for Caledonia. But yeah, there is probably a minimum income"},{"t":7202,"text":"level that they're needing to hit so that people are"},{"t":7204,"text":"not paying too much of their income for housing. Right."},{"t":7208,"text":"And that also makes sense because the RGI and the"},{"t":7212,"text":"near market subsidize the deep subsidy. Anyway, I'll move on"},{"t":7216,"text":"from that. Um, just, I just have one other question."},{"t":7219,"text":"And that's about the interim housing goalposts for the next"},{"t":7222,"text":"couple of years, just 26 to 28. And when I'm"},{"t":7226,"text":"looking at the housing types here and in one line,"},{"t":7230,"text":"there's rental and it includes market and non - market."},{"t":7234,"text":"And there's the goalpost for that. And then there's a"},{"t":7237,"text":"non - market rental and the other goalpost for that."},{"t":7241,"text":"Um, can you explain to me why, um, the non"},{"t":7247,"text":"- market is included on its own and also why"},{"t":7250,"text":"it's included in with the market rentals. Well, you're doing"},{"t":7255,"text":"that. Can you clarify the totals because they don't always"},{"t":7258,"text":"seem to match. Uh, through the mirror. So, um, we're"},{"t":7266,"text":"just, I guess, is trying to acknowledge that the, um."},{"t":7271,"text":"That the non - market rental would be contributing to"},{"t":7274,"text":"the overall, uh, rental, uh, goalpost as well. Okay. Is,"},{"t":7281,"text":"is sort of the intent there. Um, but that we"},{"t":7283,"text":"do want to have a sub target for tracking and"},{"t":7289,"text":"monitoring. The number of non - market units that we"},{"t":7294,"text":"are seeing move forward. Um, and that those non -"},{"t":7298,"text":"market could be across the continuum, everything from supportive hazards."},{"t":7302,"text":"Yeah, that makes sense. To near your market. Okay. That"},{"t":7305,"text":"makes sense. And then my, the, my final thought on"},{"t":7307,"text":"this is just around the non - market goalposts. Was"},{"t":7314,"text":"there any consideration of breaking that down to near market"},{"t":7320,"text":"RGI and deep subsidy. Can we. Can we set goalposts"},{"t":7329,"text":"that are broken down. Into those categories. Through the mayor,"},{"t":7335,"text":"I think that's the, that would probably be the intent"},{"t":7337,"text":"for the 2028. Exercise when we're doing the housing needs"},{"t":7341,"text":"report. I think we were somewhat hesitant to get into"},{"t":7346,"text":"that level of detail just for these interim goalposts over"},{"t":7349,"text":"the next three years. Um, also just recognising the kind"},{"t":7355,"text":"of current funding landscape. Um, it's a little bit up"},{"t":7358,"text":"in the air as to just what, what the programs"},{"t":7361,"text":"are going to be available to drive some of that"},{"t":7362,"text":"deeper affordability. So, uh, we were kind of hoping to"},{"t":7366,"text":"get sort of see where, see how things start to"},{"t":7368,"text":"kind of shape up with some of the new programs"},{"t":7371,"text":"announced at the federal level and sort of where we"},{"t":7374,"text":"see things, um, land, I guess, with sort of provincial"},{"t":7377,"text":"funding programs for housing over the next couple of years."},{"t":7381,"text":"And then, uh, and then also working with the updated"},{"t":7383,"text":"census data, um, to maybe dive deeper for the 2028."},{"t":7387,"text":"So I think we tried to keep it a little"},{"t":7388,"text":"bit more high level for these interim targets. Recognising, uh,"},{"t":7394,"text":"that there would be a more deeper dive to happen"},{"t":7397,"text":"in 2028. Okay. Um, yeah, that, that makes sense. I"},{"t":7405,"text":"have some comments about that, but I'll, I guess I'll,"},{"t":7408,"text":"is this on the floor? Not yet. Okay. We'll wait"},{"t":7410,"text":"until everyone is finished and then I'll, I'll comment on"},{"t":7412,"text":"that. Thanks. That's it for me. Any other questions. Council"},{"t":7416,"text":"Kim. Thanks. Through the chair, we received an email from"},{"t":7422,"text":"a resident. With a question that I do with like"},{"t":7426,"text":"to ask. The current strategies housing targets call for 6,"},{"t":7430,"text":"000 total new homes over six years. In other words,"},{"t":7434,"text":"1000 new homes per year. The new proposal calls for"},{"t":7438,"text":"an average of about 400 new homes per year. Given"},{"t":7444,"text":"that there's an estimated latent demand of six to 9,"},{"t":7447,"text":"000 homes, why are we cutting the desired building rate"},{"t":7450,"text":"by more than half. Who'd like to take that. Through"},{"t":7456,"text":"the mayor? Uh, just to, I wonder if, uh. It's"},{"t":7460,"text":"possible to bring up. We have. Maybe attachment. B. Is"},{"t":7469,"text":"that possible to bring up attachment B leb services. Thank"},{"t":7474,"text":"you. I think there may be just a, uh, slight"},{"t":7476,"text":"confusion. So, um, the target, the goalposts that are identified"},{"t":7481,"text":"below here are actual annual. So, uh, it would be"},{"t":7486,"text":"these numbers times three, which would be the, the total"},{"t":7489,"text":"for the three year period. So the annual is kind"},{"t":7493,"text":"of a, uh, is a goalpost between sort of roughly"},{"t":7496,"text":"a thousand to roughly, um, a little over 1300. So"},{"t":7500,"text":"it is acknowledging that the OCP identified sort of a"},{"t":7505,"text":"more, uh, slightly more aggressive growth target, uh, and so"},{"t":7511,"text":"we are acknowledging that more, um, more aggressive growth target"},{"t":7515,"text":"compared to maybe what we've done historically, which has been"},{"t":7518,"text":"closer to that sort of a thousand. Um, but at"},{"t":7520,"text":"the same time we recognise the headwinds, uh, head over"},{"t":7525,"text":"the next couple of years. And the changes around things"},{"t":7528,"text":"like migration over the short term. And so we're trying"},{"t":7531,"text":"to acknowledge that there may be some need for a"},{"t":7533,"text":"bit more flexibility and also recognising that at the end"},{"t":7536,"text":"of the day, uh, we're trying to shift away from"},{"t":7539,"text":"the serve idea of, um, the city alone is responsible"},{"t":7543,"text":"for these. It's a goal post. It's a, it's a"},{"t":7545,"text":"tool for us to sort of monitor and keep track"},{"t":7550,"text":"of how maybe our policies are working or not working."},{"t":7553,"text":"And maybe where there may be need for, for greater"},{"t":7555,"text":"attention or greater adaptation of some of our policies and"},{"t":7559,"text":"regulations and things like that. Thank you. Um. Funny how"},{"t":7564,"text":"one word can be so important. Okay. So I'm aware"},{"t":7569,"text":"also through the materials that there is a program that"},{"t":7573,"text":"the City of Victoria has undertaken with landlord BC and"},{"t":7577,"text":"another org about retrofitting. Current, um, older, now affordable rental"},{"t":7584,"text":"stock. Um, and because there's this program in place, I'm"},{"t":7588,"text":"wondering if it's possible to start tracking the data, not"},{"t":7592,"text":"just of homes that have been built, but also homes"},{"t":7595,"text":"that are being preserved through retrofits. Who'd like to take"},{"t":7602,"text":"that. Is Hudson? Uh, through the mayor, we could certainly"},{"t":7608,"text":"do that. Um, we had that, the tax exemption program"},{"t":7612,"text":"that you're speaking of, um, is a pilot program at"},{"t":7615,"text":"the moment that has a limit of five buildings participating."},{"t":7620,"text":"Um, but, um, yeah, we could, we could certainly take"},{"t":7622,"text":"that away and look at, you know, the buildings in"},{"t":7626,"text":"the city that are being reinvested in and revitalized because"},{"t":7631,"text":"they do very late play a very important role. So"},{"t":7633,"text":"yeah, we can certainly take that away. I don't want"},{"t":7636,"text":"to add to the workload. So I guess follow -"},{"t":7638,"text":"up question is, is a report back coming on that"},{"t":7640,"text":"pilot program anyway. Guess Hudson. Um, Sue the mayor. Yes,"},{"t":7646,"text":"we are working on that now and hoping to have"},{"t":7649,"text":"it too before the summer break. Um, but again, it's"},{"t":7651,"text":"focusing on it being a pilot for a building. Yes."},{"t":7655,"text":"Okay. Well, I would ask that you disregard my earlier"},{"t":7659,"text":"question, um, because it is a pilot program, unless in"},{"t":7662,"text":"your professional opinion, you think it is worth highlighting. In"},{"t":7665,"text":"this type of reporting. That's all. Okay. Thanks. Concer Thompson."},{"t":7673,"text":"I think, Smaria, I had questions around Community Engagement and"},{"t":7677,"text":"the Enter and Goal Post. So on Community Engagement, we"},{"t":7680,"text":"heard a little bit of discussion earlier about who is"},{"t":7683,"text":"going to be, you know, receiving targeted outreach, I guess"},{"t":7687,"text":"you could say. But are we creating any barriers. To"},{"t":7692,"text":"Community Associations or other groups or residents from providing input?"},{"t":7697,"text":"Like could somebody just send an email saying, here's my"},{"t":7699,"text":"input. Sudden. Uh, Susan Mayor. Yeah, we're certainly not looking"},{"t":7706,"text":"to create any barriers and people can absolutely, um, email"},{"t":7710,"text":"us at any time, uh, with their thoughts. And I"},{"t":7713,"text":"think, um, I think to Councillor Gardner's question earlier about"},{"t":7716,"text":"Community Associations, you know, when we're bringing this out, when"},{"t":7720,"text":"we're getting to the point where we have something to"},{"t":7722,"text":"unveil for public feedback, um, we're certainly happy to alert"},{"t":7726,"text":"the Community Associations to it, um, to, you know, we're"},{"t":7730,"text":"anticipating what we would make this public on our website."},{"t":7733,"text":"And so yes, you know, we're absolutely open to receiving"},{"t":7736,"text":"that information. And we would provide an avenue for people"},{"t":7739,"text":"to be able to get in touch with us to"},{"t":7741,"text":"send us their comments. Okay. Thanks. Um, I know with"},{"t":7747,"text":"the OCP engagement, there was a formal quote unquote formal"},{"t":7752,"text":"staff led engagement period, but, uh, I was certainly receiving"},{"t":7755,"text":"a lot of input well before that and well after"},{"t":7758,"text":"it. As with the OCP, will people be able to"},{"t":7762,"text":"email or otherwise write letters or phone in and provide"},{"t":7766,"text":"their input before any formal engagement period. Is that something."},{"t":7784,"text":"Councillor Thompson staff are just amusing. Thanks. Um, through the"},{"t":7791,"text":"mayor, I think we haven't got to that level of"},{"t":7794,"text":"detail yet as far as our detailed engagement approach, I"},{"t":7797,"text":"think for today we've brought forward sort of a high"},{"t":7800,"text":"level timeline and a very high level engagement strategy. But"},{"t":7804,"text":"yeah, haven't dove into the details yet with our engagement"},{"t":7807,"text":"colleagues about, um, when exactly we would alert people and,"},{"t":7812,"text":"you know, ensuring there's a proper email address for them"},{"t":7814,"text":"to provide input two, but we can certainly have those"},{"t":7817,"text":"conversations with them to iron that out. Okay. And just"},{"t":7823,"text":"in terms of the format of people providing information, I"},{"t":7828,"text":"know that with the OCP, uh, there was a great"},{"t":7831,"text":"deal of, um, discussion and merryment made of the, um,"},{"t":7837,"text":"of the survey, because the survey couldn't ask every single"},{"t":7840,"text":"question under the sun. It only asked some questions. But"},{"t":7844,"text":"I do know that we're organisations, including Community Associations provided,"},{"t":7850,"text":"uh, sort of open - ended input as well. They"},{"t":7852,"text":"just kind of wrote in and said, here's our thoughts."},{"t":7855,"text":"They didn't feel constrained by any particular instrument. Uh, will"},{"t":7859,"text":"it be the same in this case. Uh, you've already"},{"t":7863,"text":"said that they can provide input, but I guess they"},{"t":7866,"text":"can provide any input they want. Are we going to"},{"t":7868,"text":"limit that."},{"t":7880,"text":"Through the mayor? Um, yeah, I think at this point"},{"t":7882,"text":"in time, we've generally seen, I guess, the fact that"},{"t":7888,"text":"we did have fairly significant. Engagement around housing through the"},{"t":7895,"text":"OCP. Uh, we have a fair bit of, um, kind"},{"t":7900,"text":"of insight, I guess, gain from kind of all the"},{"t":7904,"text":"monitoring that we've done around the housing strategy annual reviews"},{"t":7907,"text":"over the last, um, five, six years and generally, I"},{"t":7913,"text":"think we're also just trying to be acknowledging, I guess,"},{"t":7917,"text":"of the fact that we've, we've already asked the community"},{"t":7919,"text":"a lot of questions around housing over the last four"},{"t":7922,"text":"or five years. And so, um, I think at this"},{"t":7924,"text":"point in time, we had not anticipated asking the community"},{"t":7927,"text":"to go out and do a whole nother survey. And"},{"t":7930,"text":"as I mentioned before, it's an update. It's kind of"},{"t":7933,"text":"a refresh of the housing strategy. Um, we're not necessarily"},{"t":7937,"text":"looking to, um, sort of start from scratch. I think"},{"t":7941,"text":"the great work that's been done already, uh, over the"},{"t":7945,"text":"past, you know, eight or so years around housing that"},{"t":7949,"text":"we would be looking to build upon. So I think"},{"t":7951,"text":"from that perspective, that's why we were thinking more of"},{"t":7953,"text":"a lighter touch around, uh, working with kind of community"},{"t":7956,"text":"partners and things like that. Um, but certainly we can,"},{"t":7960,"text":"um, and certainly using, using our website and our engage."},{"t":7964,"text":"ca. Sort of platform as an opportunity to reach out"},{"t":7968,"text":"to the broader community as well. So I think we"},{"t":7971,"text":"can take some of this feedback. We've heard, um, from"},{"t":7973,"text":"council and continue to think about ways to, to make"},{"t":7978,"text":"opportunities available for the broader public as well. Mr. Johnson,"},{"t":7982,"text":"did you wish to weigh in? I see you leaning"},{"t":7983,"text":"in. Thanks. And through the mayor, certainly just to add"},{"t":7989,"text":"to what Mr. Salard saying we did do extensive engagement"},{"t":7992,"text":"on, on the OCP Council will remember, uh, over 20"},{"t":7997,"text":"plus public opportunities where people came to talk to us."},{"t":7999,"text":"We had our spaces and places, special, uh, events where"},{"t":8005,"text":"we engaged with certain neighbourhoods as well. Um, that being"},{"t":8009,"text":"said, uh, you know, we would work very closely with"},{"t":8012,"text":"the planning department on finding, if the opportunities where, where"},{"t":8016,"text":"the realistically just don't know. And that's when we would"},{"t":8020,"text":"look to do any kind of targeted survey or something,"},{"t":8024,"text":"but, uh, but certainly, uh, as I've said before, ways"},{"t":8029,"text":"to provide feedback to the city through our engagement platform,"},{"t":8033,"text":"through email. We'll take any feedback that the public has"},{"t":8036,"text":"and consider it as it has required. Thank you Councillor."},{"t":8040,"text":"Thanks. Thanks for that. Uh, just shifting to the interim"},{"t":8044,"text":"goalposts. I guess for 2026 to 2028. So, uh, I"},{"t":8050,"text":"had thought that I understood what the targets were until"},{"t":8054,"text":"a question was recently asked about them specifically around, you"},{"t":8060,"text":"know, something being cut in half to five or 600."},{"t":8064,"text":"So I thought that the table in Appendix B, which"},{"t":8069,"text":"is still up. Straightforward, I just thought that's the targets."},{"t":8073,"text":"Or sorry, that's the goalpost. Is that not correct. It's"},{"t":8077,"text":"just that I believe you clarified those are the annual"},{"t":8079,"text":"go posts. Through the mayor, yeah, those are annual go"},{"t":8082,"text":"polls. So we have three years, 26, 27, 28. So"},{"t":8087,"text":"that would be the goalpost. For each year. So time's"},{"t":8091,"text":"seen that by multiplying that by three would give you"},{"t":8093,"text":"the sort of the broader total. So Councillor Councillor Thompson,"},{"t":8098,"text":"that would mean that your total net new homes goalposts"},{"t":8102,"text":"for three years is close to 4, 000. Yes. It"},{"t":8106,"text":"says annual right at the top of it. Yes. Like"},{"t":8109,"text":"it's annual goalpost. Okay. So I do understand it correctly."},{"t":8112,"text":"Okay. Good. Um, when you came up with the goalposts,"},{"t":8117,"text":"I take it that, um, you were looking at projected"},{"t":8122,"text":"population growth plus chipping away at latent demand. Is that"},{"t":8126,"text":"correct? Mr. Sauer. Through the mayor, uh, yeah. So that's,"},{"t":8131,"text":"that was the, the sort of the foundation of the"},{"t":8135,"text":"OCP goalpost. And so what we've done is tried to"},{"t":8139,"text":"look at, you know, if we were trying to achieve"},{"t":8143,"text":"the goalpost at, you know, one year at a time,"},{"t":8146,"text":"like what would the sort of prorated version be? Um,"},{"t":8150,"text":"so that's part of what has been included here for"},{"t":8153,"text":"the intern goalpost of that, that 1, 330 number that"},{"t":8157,"text":"directly relates to that long - term 20 year OCP"},{"t":8161,"text":"goalpost, which integrates. Latent demand as a key component of"},{"t":8166,"text":"what, what we, how we developed that. Okay. Then I"},{"t":8171,"text":"think you've answered my next question, which is, um, the"},{"t":8174,"text":"time period over which the 8, 000 to 9, 000"},{"t":8177,"text":"latent demand would be, uh, eliminated, I guess we would"},{"t":8181,"text":"be looking to bring that down to zero at the"},{"t":8183,"text":"end of the 20 year period. Is that correct? Is"},{"t":8186,"text":"it soard. Through the mayor, I think it's challenging to"},{"t":8195,"text":"put precise timelines on sort of a number that is"},{"t":8201,"text":"ultimately at best an estimate, uh, and so, um, but"},{"t":8205,"text":"I think, you know, when we've been thinking about establishing"},{"t":8209,"text":"goalposts and thinking about how housing need, um, and, and"},{"t":8214,"text":"I might, I might see if, uh, if my colleague,"},{"t":8216,"text":"um, manager close wants to add anything to this that"},{"t":8219,"text":"I think we have been trying to think about the"},{"t":8221,"text":"importance of trying to tackle that latent demand early in"},{"t":8228,"text":"the, in the OCP timeline. And so, um, you know,"},{"t":8232,"text":"the more that we, the, the sooner we're able to"},{"t":8236,"text":"tackle the latent demand, the sooner we're able to get"},{"t":8238,"text":"sort of some of the challenges that we're facing that"},{"t":8240,"text":"have been very persistent within the housing system, uh, around,"},{"t":8244,"text":"you know, affordability and vacancy and some of those issues."},{"t":8249,"text":"The more we can tackle the latent demand early, you"},{"t":8251,"text":"know, the more that I think we can help to"},{"t":8253,"text":"relieve some pressure within the housing system. So I think"},{"t":8255,"text":"we've tried to be more, I think more aggressive and,"},{"t":8259,"text":"and, and taking action in the near term. But yeah,"},{"t":8262,"text":"but I think the, the bigger goal would be long"},{"t":8264,"text":"term that, you know, by the time the OCP comes"},{"t":8267,"text":"to a conclusion at the end of the 20 years"},{"t":8269,"text":"that we would see a significant reduction in latent demand,"},{"t":8274,"text":"I think would be a goal for sure. Okay. Thanks."},{"t":8280,"text":"Yeah. When I looked at the population projections, the most"},{"t":8283,"text":"recent ones for Victoria, um, on the BC government website"},{"t":8287,"text":"BCStats, uh, something like roughly a little over 800 per"},{"t":8293,"text":"year for the next 10 years. And I think a"},{"t":8294,"text":"little over a thousand per year for the 10 years"},{"t":8296,"text":"after that. And of course that's all, you know, crystal"},{"t":8300,"text":"ballgazing. I mean, it's better than Crystal Baldwin. I know"},{"t":8303,"text":"that they have models and that sort of thing. Um,"},{"t":8304,"text":"so, uh, even if population growth were less than that,"},{"t":8311,"text":"uh, which that's not the projection, but even if it"},{"t":8314,"text":"were less than that, we would still need to try"},{"t":8317,"text":"to tackle that, um, latent demand, correct? Through the mayor,"},{"t":8322,"text":"yeah, that's, I think that's, that's a good point. And,"},{"t":8326,"text":"um, in the same way that we, the population estimates"},{"t":8329,"text":"today are based on projections and the policies of the"},{"t":8333,"text":"day, you know, they, they very well could shift based"},{"t":8336,"text":"on, uh, policy shifts at different levels of government as"},{"t":8339,"text":"well. Right. Yes. Okay. Thank you. Uh, thanks everyone for"},{"t":8344,"text":"your answers at all for now for me. Thanks very"},{"t":8347,"text":"much. Anyone else with questions Councillor Coleman. Thank you. And"},{"t":8352,"text":"through you, your worship to staff. Thank you for the"},{"t":8354,"text":"reports. Um, I don't know if you have the original"},{"t":8358,"text":"report. Stacked up. I did send Miss Rotor the continuum"},{"t":8366,"text":"housing continuum. So when we look at the numbers, do"},{"t":8371,"text":"we do a backward check that they actually fit the"},{"t":8373,"text":"median, as an example, the median income levels for monthly"},{"t":8377,"text":"rent. So if we build 700 or get 700 units"},{"t":8383,"text":"in the targeted median area, do we go back and"},{"t":8386,"text":"check the rent and say it's somewhere between 1100 months"},{"t":8390,"text":"and 1750 a month? Mr. Sauerd. Through the mayor, um,"},{"t":8396,"text":"we do do some tracking within the non - market"},{"t":8401,"text":"component of the housing continue, I would say. So, um,"},{"t":8405,"text":"we do when we're doing our, our target tracking, uh,"},{"t":8409,"text":"through the housing strategy and we'll review, we do try"},{"t":8412,"text":"to, um. Sort of specify, you know, based on a,"},{"t":8418,"text":"for example, the Caledonia project that, you know,"},{"t":8431,"text":"So we do do some of that, um, but at"},{"t":8434,"text":"the end of the day, I would say like, you"},{"t":8437,"text":"know, these are the graphic is illustrative. It's a, it's"},{"t":8442,"text":"a, it's, it gives us sort of a good working"},{"t":8445,"text":"idea of some of these, uh, these different sort of"},{"t":8448,"text":"buckets that we're working towards, um, but, um. Ultimately, I"},{"t":8453,"text":"think like the, you know. A significant component of our"},{"t":8458,"text":"housing is market housing. And so the price of that"},{"t":8461,"text":"market housing is subject to a number of factors outside"},{"t":8464,"text":"our control, of course. Thank you. And that, that's helpful."},{"t":8467,"text":"I just think that we have targets, excuse me, for"},{"t":8472,"text":"what we want to see growing out in the future"},{"t":8474,"text":"and addressing latent demand. But there is a bracket creep."},{"t":8478,"text":"And I look particularly at the median level and below"},{"t":8481,"text":"with respect to annual household incomes. And if it's the"},{"t":8485,"text":"30 percent rule from CMHC or the 45 percent rule,"},{"t":8489,"text":"I'm not sure we're achieving those targets over time or"},{"t":8493,"text":"they're stabilizing. So my, I guess the other way of"},{"t":8496,"text":"asking a question is if you look at all the"},{"t":8499,"text":"units we're projecting, where would you fit them on the"},{"t":8502,"text":"spectrum. And are we then sure that they're going to"},{"t":8505,"text":"stay there addressing affordability for the different citizens of Victoria."},{"t":8512,"text":"She's our, I think that's a very, very good question."},{"t":8517,"text":"And I think highlights the challenges when we see major"},{"t":8520,"text":"cuts to our, you know. Very, um, very critical programs"},{"t":8528,"text":"such as the Community Housing Fund, which have been probably"},{"t":8531,"text":"our greatest tool for advancing, um, housing that would cater"},{"t":8537,"text":"to very low, low and median income, uh, groups, uh,"},{"t":8542,"text":"because the level of subsidy in the form of operating"},{"t":8545,"text":"subsidies and capital grants that's needed to drive that level"},{"t":8549,"text":"of affordability and housing within that, that segment of the"},{"t":8553,"text":"continuum just doesn't happen without a major investment from a"},{"t":8558,"text":"provincial or federal partner. So, um, I think certainly one"},{"t":8563,"text":"challenge that we could see, I think moving forward is"},{"t":8567,"text":"as those programs. Are, you know, repaced or scaled back."},{"t":8573,"text":"We see maybe more housing that is in, that is"},{"t":8578,"text":"technically, you know, below market housing, but the starting rents"},{"t":8582,"text":"are maybe creeping up into that moderate household income because"},{"t":8585,"text":"there isn't the level of operating subsidy or capital grant"},{"t":8590,"text":"to really drive that deep affordability right away and that"},{"t":8593,"text":"over time at me serve median household incomes of the"},{"t":8596,"text":"day. But to start, it may not. And so we,"},{"t":8600,"text":"um, I think that is a challenge that, um, that"},{"t":8604,"text":"will need to continue to watch and monitor and highlights"},{"t":8607,"text":"the really important role of partnership in terms of delivery"},{"t":8611,"text":"of this, this non - market housing. Thank you. And"},{"t":8613,"text":"I think it highlights the increasing as we move to"},{"t":8616,"text":"the left, the increasing level of the light blue tranche."},{"t":8620,"text":"That seems to be evaporating these days. Um, and it"},{"t":8623,"text":"puts some real pressure on the delivery and the maintenance"},{"t":8626,"text":"of the lower end of that spectrum. So thank you."},{"t":8632,"text":"Any other questions from anyone who resnia asked one. Not"},{"t":8636,"text":"seeing that. Councillor Loten for a second time. Sorry my"},{"t":8640,"text":"apologies. Councillor Hammond first. Can someone please explain through you,"},{"t":8646,"text":"Mayor, um, what is the reduction in moving penalty? I"},{"t":8650,"text":"didn't understand where the penalty comes in. Ms. Montgomery, is"},{"t":8656,"text":"that something you can answer. Through the mirror, so that's"},{"t":8663,"text":"the difference in what you're paying versus what you'd be"},{"t":8667,"text":"paying if you moved into a new unit. And so"},{"t":8675,"text":"that has to be 50 percent. Through the mayor. So"},{"t":8681,"text":"sort of the hit that you would take has been"},{"t":8684,"text":"reduced. So you now would be paying, um, not as"},{"t":8690,"text":"a significant gap between your current rent and the new"},{"t":8693,"text":"rent. Okay. All right. Now that I understand that. So"},{"t":8697,"text":"then does that mean you move and you're still going"},{"t":8701,"text":"up. Like this isn't a reduction, right? It's an increase."},{"t":8706,"text":"Like you were either paying what like, I don't, I"},{"t":8708,"text":"don't know or 50 percent crew coming to leave a"},{"t":8711,"text":"place and then pay 50 percent more rent. Is that"},{"t":8713,"text":"what they were doing? Through the mayor, it is an"},{"t":8716,"text":"increase. Okay. And so now it's a lower increase. And"},{"t":8719,"text":"am I correct? Is there something of that? Anyways, it's"},{"t":8724,"text":"small. So let's say, so, so I leave an apartment"},{"t":8726,"text":"and then I move and I'm probably paying 17 percent"},{"t":8729,"text":"more. Is that right? Through the mayor, that's correct. On"},{"t":8732,"text":"average. Correct. Okay. How does that, how do we reconcile"},{"t":8736,"text":"that with the fact that the upper end or going"},{"t":8739,"text":"down."},{"t":8750,"text":"Through the mayor, um, so I think, yeah, it's interesting."},{"t":8755,"text":"I think it speaks to the. Sort of diversity of,"},{"t":8759,"text":"of circumstances within the primary rental market, um, so you"},{"t":8765,"text":"could see, so yeah, we saw like a reduction in"},{"t":8770,"text":"the moving penalty. So the moving penalty was about 40"},{"t":8772,"text":"percent in 2024. So yeah, Councillor, you're correct. So that"},{"t":8779,"text":"could be someone who maybe has been in a housing"},{"t":8783,"text":"situation for the last, you know, two or three years,"},{"t":8788,"text":"but, um, and they maybe locked in at something that"},{"t":8791,"text":"was, uh, at a reasonably high price, you know, a"},{"t":8795,"text":"couple of years ago, but maybe are able to find"},{"t":8797,"text":"something that's much better. And but they're willing to pay"},{"t":8800,"text":"a bit of a bit more of a premium for"},{"t":8801,"text":"it based on maybe being a newer product or something"},{"t":8804,"text":"like that. I think where we have seen the sort"},{"t":8809,"text":"of more modest decreases in terms of the housing prices,"},{"t":8813,"text":"it's been, I think, smaller, some of the smaller units."},{"t":8816,"text":"So certainly like bachelors in one bedrooms we've seen some"},{"t":8819,"text":"modest decreases in that, um, and some of that has"},{"t":8822,"text":"been, yeah, maybe sort of some more competition maybe within"},{"t":8826,"text":"that, um, housing kind of that's been built in the"},{"t":8829,"text":"last, the last five years. And then also just as,"},{"t":8832,"text":"uh, that becomes a little bit more affordable. It sort"},{"t":8835,"text":"of trickles down in there. It can be some, you"},{"t":8837,"text":"know, more competition at other parts of the housing. Sort"},{"t":8841,"text":"of stock within rental. But I think, you know, the"},{"t":8844,"text":"moving penalty number, uh, yeah, sort of speaks to people"},{"t":8847,"text":"who are, um, yeah, I guess it's sort of looking"},{"t":8852,"text":"at leaving their current unit either because they've been forced"},{"t":8856,"text":"to or because they choose to, uh, and sort of"},{"t":8859,"text":"the, I guess, the premium that they're forced to pay"},{"t":8861,"text":"by, um, by sort of, uh, going out into the"},{"t":8865,"text":"open market. And I think what, why we use it"},{"t":8867,"text":"is, it's, it gives a bit of an indication of"},{"t":8869,"text":"just how scary that is, I guess for a tenant."},{"t":8873,"text":"If someone has a 40 percent moving penalty, that's a,"},{"t":8876,"text":"you know, that's quite a, um, quite a significant challenge"},{"t":8880,"text":"for that person and highlights the value of things like"},{"t":8884,"text":"our tenant compensation bylaw and things like that in terms"},{"t":8887,"text":"of helping to mitigate that impact. Um, and so I"},{"t":8890,"text":"think what we're seeing that is it's one indicator that"},{"t":8892,"text":"gives us a sense that there's maybe some improvements in"},{"t":8896,"text":"the overall, uh, rental housing market in terms of giving"},{"t":8899,"text":"more choice and more options for people who are renters"},{"t":8903,"text":"based on the fact that we've seen more supply. There's"},{"t":8906,"text":"maybe more competition. We've heard from speaking with folks such"},{"t":8909,"text":"as like Devin Properties, that then the rental market there's"},{"t":8913,"text":"more competition for good renters in terms of whether that"},{"t":8917,"text":"be, you know, incentives for people to sign up for,"},{"t":8920,"text":"for rental units and things like that. So I think"},{"t":8922,"text":"it's just one indicator that we use to sort of"},{"t":8925,"text":"give some sense of like where things are within the"},{"t":8928,"text":"primary rental market. Thanks. And through you, Mayor, you, you"},{"t":8932,"text":"mentioned that someone might be forced to leave. Well, that"},{"t":8934,"text":"could be, uh, because of, um, personal circumstance, but it"},{"t":8939,"text":"also could be that if there's redevelopment that they are,"},{"t":8943,"text":"um, kicked out of their, um, their cheaper rents. And"},{"t":8947,"text":"then they have to go to market rents. Is that"},{"t":8949,"text":"correct? Through the mayor, yes, that's correct. Okay. And now"},{"t":8955,"text":"in the report, and I might even make reference to"},{"t":8957,"text":"it in my notes, in the report, it makes reference"},{"t":8960,"text":"to the fact that, uh, places are getting smaller and"},{"t":8963,"text":"yet people are paying more per square foot. So could"},{"t":8968,"text":"it also be that if someone chooses to or is"},{"t":8971,"text":"forced to move out of something that's bigger, they're moving"},{"t":8974,"text":"to something that's smaller. And either it is a little"},{"t":8977,"text":"bit less or could be, let's go with the average"},{"t":8980,"text":"17 percent more, but they're not getting as much. Could"},{"t":8983,"text":"that be also reality of what's going on now. Through"},{"t":8987,"text":"the mayor. Yeah. I mean, yeah, that's, that's one scenario"},{"t":8989,"text":"that could play out. Absolutely. Okay. Thanks. Um, I just"},{"t":8993,"text":"want to read a couple of things and then ask"},{"t":8994,"text":"a question from the report. On page 23, the rental"},{"t":8997,"text":"housing vacancy says the overall vacancy rate in Victoria has"},{"t":9000,"text":"reached its highest level since 1999 rising to 3. 2"},{"t":9004,"text":"percent. This marks a clear shift towards a more balanced"},{"t":9008,"text":"rental market and reflects the high number of rental housing"},{"t":9011,"text":"starts in recent years combined with lower population growth from"},{"t":9015,"text":"2024 to 2025. A week labour market shown by slower"},{"t":9020,"text":"hiring and rising unemployment among younger workers limited the formation"},{"t":9024,"text":"of households may also be a contributing factor according to"},{"t":9028,"text":"the CMHC. Ongoing high demand for family - friendly homes"},{"t":9033,"text":"remains due to the small number of existing three bedroom"},{"t":9035,"text":"units, um, in the city. Um, isn't. Our trend in"},{"t":9042,"text":"Victoria basically the same in many jurisdictions within Canada. Sehr."},{"t":9052,"text":"Through the mayor. Yeah, I think there's certainly"},{"t":9063,"text":"our macro trends that are playing out across the country"},{"t":9067,"text":"with respect to greater investment in rental housing, increase in"},{"t":9073,"text":"vacancy rates. But I think there is certainly, the nuance."},{"t":9080,"text":"And, um. Yeah, local context that's important as well. Well,"},{"t":9087,"text":"sure. But also a huge change. Am I wrong is"},{"t":9091,"text":"in the, um, number of immigrants that we're allowing in"},{"t":9095,"text":"and also students and temporary foreign workers isn't like, unless"},{"t":9101,"text":"I'm wrong. Isn't that a trend that we see amongst"},{"t":9104,"text":"a number of markets across Canada, especially where housing was"},{"t":9108,"text":"built up quite readily and Victoria, Vancouver, Toronto and other"},{"t":9112,"text":"places like that. Through the mayor. Yeah. That's, uh, that's"},{"t":9119,"text":"why we speak to the fact that we've saw some"},{"t":9122,"text":"lower population growth from 24 to 25 because of that"},{"t":9124,"text":"immigration shift. We still do see, you know, Victoria is"},{"t":9130,"text":"still a desirable place. So we'll still see that sort"},{"t":9132,"text":"of regional migration within, within Canada and within BC to"},{"t":9137,"text":"people moving to moving to the Victoria region as well."},{"t":9141,"text":"But yeah, absolutely. That's, that's what we're, we're acknowledging that"},{"t":9144,"text":"there has been, uh, some lower population growth as immigration"},{"t":9147,"text":"is scaled back. Thanks. So when staff go over, uh,"},{"t":9151,"text":"the report and they say quote, more choice for renters"},{"t":9154,"text":"is there more choice at the Affordable or deeply affordable"},{"t":9157,"text":"apartments when vacancy rate is 3. 2 percent. So. Through"},{"t":9164,"text":"the mayor, uh, you know, I would say certainly the"},{"t":9170,"text":"greatest choice is probably, uh, within the new rental market"},{"t":9178,"text":"supply is probably the greatest opportunity in terms of availability"},{"t":9181,"text":"and choice. Um, I think there continues to be, uh,"},{"t":9189,"text":"there continues to be a significant wait list for subsidized"},{"t":9194,"text":"social housing. And so, um, that remains and that highlights"},{"t":9199,"text":"the need for ongoing. And ongoing kind of commitments from"},{"t":9203,"text":"all levels of government to work towards that. But yeah,"},{"t":9205,"text":"I think there certainly is, uh, there's. Probably more choice"},{"t":9211,"text":"and more available and more options for people who are"},{"t":9214,"text":"looking for looking at sort of new rental market housing."},{"t":9221,"text":"But I think there is also, uh, just generally, you"},{"t":9224,"text":"know, looking, you know, speaking with our tenden assistance planner"},{"t":9228,"text":"and talking with, you know, some of the rental housing"},{"t":9231,"text":"providers in town that there is, I think there is"},{"t":9233,"text":"just also just more competition, like across the rental, the"},{"t":9236,"text":"rental segment. So you're telling me that at the, um,"},{"t":9241,"text":"affordable or deeply affordable apartments, there's a substantial vacancy rate."},{"t":9246,"text":"Through the mayor. I'm saying that there is more options"},{"t":9251,"text":"probably for older rental housing as well as the new"},{"t":9256,"text":"housing, but probably the greatest choice and the, the most"},{"t":9260,"text":"highest vacancy is probably on the newer rental housing stock."},{"t":9264,"text":"Okay. And just to follow that, do we have evidence"},{"t":9268,"text":"that in the affordable or deeply affordable or even in"},{"t":9272,"text":"the older housing stock, that those, those rates are going"},{"t":9275,"text":"down. Other than the market rent. Cause I get at"},{"t":9280,"text":"market levels and new places. I get that you have"},{"t":9284,"text":"better choices and maybe the rent's going down a bit."},{"t":9289,"text":"But can you tell me that there's actually rents are"},{"t":9292,"text":"going down in the affordable and deeply affordable apartments. Uh,"},{"t":9297,"text":"through the mayor, I guess I'm not, like, are we"},{"t":9300,"text":"talking about, are we talking about the like subsidized housing"},{"t":9305,"text":"segment of the market? Are you talking about more affordable"},{"t":9308,"text":"like market rental housing stock? Yeah, I'm talking about someone"},{"t":9310,"text":"who's been in their apartment for 20 years. And they"},{"t":9313,"text":"move out. Are they going to also find a place"},{"t":9316,"text":"that's going to be as affordable as what they've been"},{"t":9318,"text":"at? Seward? Through the mayor. Yeah. I mean, I think"},{"t":9323,"text":"that's, uh. Probably. Because we have a significant portion of"},{"t":9332,"text":"our housing stock that continues to be in the market"},{"t":9334,"text":"rental housing. We've probably seen some slight adjustments to that,"},{"t":9339,"text":"i. e. with the moving penalty reduced from previous years,"},{"t":9344,"text":"um, and that rinses are not rising as much, but"},{"t":9347,"text":"I don't think it's still those still units are still"},{"t":9350,"text":"going to be, you know, still going to be driven"},{"t":9353,"text":"by, you know, market rates. I mean, we did see"},{"t":9357,"text":"from 24 to 25, we did see a reduction in"},{"t":9360,"text":"the average cost of a, of a, of a bachelor"},{"t":9363,"text":"unit. So I think that speaks to maybe some of"},{"t":9365,"text":"those, you know, units kind of stabilizing not seeing the"},{"t":9369,"text":"price appreciation that we've seen for, for the many years."},{"t":9372,"text":"But yeah, I can't, you know, we, we do see,"},{"t":9376,"text":"you know, buildings that have, you know, that were, you"},{"t":9379,"text":"know, built in pre 1960s, uh, from the 1960 to"},{"t":9385,"text":"1970s, uh, even, you know, buildings that were built in"},{"t":9389,"text":"the 70s and early 80s. We definitely do see that"},{"t":9391,"text":"those, uh, rental housing and those units in the region"},{"t":9396,"text":"are generally have, have much lower rents. Some of that"},{"t":9399,"text":"is based on the fact that people have longer tendencies"},{"t":9402,"text":"and they're protected by the RTA, but there may also"},{"t":9405,"text":"be just to be clear slightly lower rents. They have"},{"t":9408,"text":"lower rents, but the moment they move out, you're not"},{"t":9411,"text":"telling me that the rent either stays the same or"},{"t":9413,"text":"goes down if someone's been in an apartment from the"},{"t":9417,"text":"1960s or 1970s. Through the mayor, I'm not saying that"},{"t":9421,"text":"the, the rent goes down, but I am saying that"},{"t":9424,"text":"as there's more competition within the rental housing market. And"},{"t":9429,"text":"we see more supply come on. It's more challenging for,"},{"t":9432,"text":"uh, for a landowner to say that they're going to"},{"t":9435,"text":"be able to bump up the rent for a 40"},{"t":9439,"text":"year old unit to the same price that someone is"},{"t":9442,"text":"maybe going to be paying for a brand new, uh,"},{"t":9445,"text":"building, you know, downtown with nice finishes. So I think"},{"t":9448,"text":"it just highlights that when there's more balance in the"},{"t":9450,"text":"rental market, there's more competition. And that provides just generally"},{"t":9454,"text":"more options for renters. I'm not saying that, uh, there's"},{"t":9458,"text":"deep affordability provided. Though. Okay. Thank you. Um, on page"},{"t":9463,"text":"31, the progress towards affordable housing targets, um, you lay"},{"t":9467,"text":"out, twenty, the target of 2, 100, 90 percent of"},{"t":9471,"text":"the 2, 100 affordable rents. And so you note, um,"},{"t":9476,"text":"a number of different locations such as, um, the roundhouse"},{"t":9481,"text":"lime bay development in Vic West. How many of the"},{"t":9484,"text":"2100 affordable housing units are in the works or are,"},{"t":9489,"text":"or have been completed. She's our."},{"t":9503,"text":"Mayor on page 33. You'll see that there is a"},{"t":9506,"text":"map with the different projects that are under construction in"},{"t":9510,"text":"2025, which may help, but I can pull up those"},{"t":9514,"text":"exact numbers in just a moment. Sorry. What page is"},{"t":9519,"text":"that? Cause I remember seeing that. And so I was"},{"t":9523,"text":"just wondering of those of the 2100 how many of"},{"t":9527,"text":"those are actually, um, built or soon to be built."},{"t":9533,"text":"You say that was page 30, what page was then?"},{"t":9537,"text":"What page would that do? Page 33 of the. Right."},{"t":9540,"text":"It shows the little houses and whatnot."},{"t":9564,"text":"So through the merit, there were 813 non - market"},{"t":9568,"text":"homes under construction in 2025. Great. Okay. Are any of"},{"t":9573,"text":"the 90 percent of those 2, 100 are they ready"},{"t":9577,"text":"for occupancy now. Do the mayor I don't have exact"},{"t":9582,"text":"numbers on occupancy at this time, but last time I"},{"t":9585,"text":"looked, it did seem, um, just based on the projects"},{"t":9588,"text":"that most of them are still under construction. Okay. Great."},{"t":9591,"text":"Thanks. Um, and then, and this covers some of the"},{"t":9594,"text":"stuff I've talked about, but just to be clear, when"},{"t":9597,"text":"it comes to rinse, we are told that rents are"},{"t":9599,"text":"coming down. But all our indicators from 2024 housing report"},{"t":9603,"text":"and then this, 2025 housing report, all the rents have"},{"t":9606,"text":"gone up in 2024 with an overall rent increase of"},{"t":9609,"text":"seven percent except for studio apartments, all other increases, um,"},{"t":9617,"text":"with overall rents or up 5. 7 percent. How do"},{"t":9619,"text":"we reconcile this. Any stuff like to take a stab"},{"t":9627,"text":"at that? Through the American, you just repeat the question,"},{"t":9633,"text":"please. Well, sure. Is that, um, the 2024 report in"},{"t":9638,"text":"the 2025 report all rents on average overall went up"},{"t":9645,"text":"5. 7 percent 2025 all of the categories in both"},{"t":9649,"text":"those years went up with one exception of studio apartments"},{"t":9653,"text":"that went down slightly. And so we are told, and"},{"t":9658,"text":"I accepted it. It seems to be true. We are"},{"t":9661,"text":"told that rents are coming down. But how do we"},{"t":9664,"text":"reconcile the fact that our rents have gone up. Substantially"},{"t":9668,"text":"over the last couple of years when people are told,"},{"t":9672,"text":"Hey, you got a good thing going on right now."},{"t":9675,"text":"Yeah. Through the merit. This is a good question. So,"},{"t":9677,"text":"um, yeah, the couple different data points that we use"},{"t":9681,"text":"in terms of just sort of tracking what's going on"},{"t":9683,"text":"in the housing market. And so, um, the chart in"},{"t":9689,"text":"the housing strategy annual review on page page 25, uh,"},{"t":9696,"text":"which, uh, which is the number that you referenced around"},{"t":9700,"text":"sort of the overall increase of, of rents, um, being"},{"t":9704,"text":"about five, 5. 7 percent increases is based on the"},{"t":9708,"text":"CMHC rental market report. And so that, that's data that's"},{"t":9711,"text":"tracked annually. And it comes out, I think, you know,"},{"t":9717,"text":"comes out in the fall and is usually based in"},{"t":9719,"text":"like, I think it comes out sort of toward the"},{"t":9721,"text":"end of the year, but it's based on data that"},{"t":9723,"text":"sort of captured, I believe in the fall each year."},{"t":9727,"text":"And so within that, we are seeing, um, yeah, we"},{"t":9731,"text":"are seeing that the overall, uh, increase has, has still"},{"t":9735,"text":"been there. Um, but what we have also seen is"},{"t":9738,"text":"that, um, there's other, other groups, such as like rentals."},{"t":9744,"text":"ca that shows sort of asking, asking rents on a"},{"t":9748,"text":"month by month basis. And so that's some of the,"},{"t":9752,"text":"some of that, um, kind of commentary that we're sort"},{"t":9755,"text":"of providing is that if you look at the, the"},{"t":9757,"text":"sort of month over month pattern of, um, data that's"},{"t":9761,"text":"being released by that rentals. ca report. You do see,"},{"t":9765,"text":"um, you start to see that sort of, that chart."},{"t":9768,"text":"That's provided on page 24 of the report with monthly"},{"t":9772,"text":"average rates sort of, you know, maybe kind of peaking."},{"t":9777,"text":"And sometime in kind of early, early 2024 and then"},{"t":9782,"text":"sort of seen slow month over month kind of decreases,"},{"t":9786,"text":"uh, modest month over month decreases since through the end"},{"t":9789,"text":"of 2025, uh, and I would say anecdotally, we've kind"},{"t":9793,"text":"of seen that continue through under 2026. So, uh, and"},{"t":9796,"text":"that's more, uh, more of a snapshot of kind of,"},{"t":9800,"text":"um, asking rents at the time on sort of a"},{"t":9803,"text":"monthly month, month by month basis. Um, that's, that's provided."},{"t":9808,"text":"And by that sort of rentals. ca. And that's based"},{"t":9813,"text":"on asking rents. And then when we look at the"},{"t":9815,"text":"CMHC annual report, that looks at the overall overall rental"},{"t":9819,"text":"market report and COSL can capture, you know, also captures"},{"t":9822,"text":"the increases that people pay based on just, you know,"},{"t":9826,"text":"annual rent increases from the RTA. So, um, if someone"},{"t":9830,"text":"is, uh, even if someone's paying a lower rent, um,"},{"t":9835,"text":"the landowner may still do the, you know, the RTA"},{"t":9839,"text":"allowable rent increase. And so they rent would still continue"},{"t":9842,"text":"to increase. Um, but when we look at the sort"},{"t":9844,"text":"of asking rent rents that are being kind of listed"},{"t":9847,"text":"on, you know, different websites and things like that, the"},{"t":9850,"text":"rental. cacts. We do see sort of a general trend"},{"t":9853,"text":"of rents kind of flattening out or even declining a"},{"t":9856,"text":"little bit. And we've, we've also seen that sort of"},{"t":9859,"text":"reiterated by, you know, speaking with housing providers such as"},{"t":9862,"text":"Devin properties and talking with, with housing providers who are,"},{"t":9865,"text":"you know, developers and things like that who are finding"},{"t":9867,"text":"it more challenging to, you know, put together projects because"},{"t":9870,"text":"they, they see sort of rents kind of flattening out."},{"t":9872,"text":"And it's harder for them to make their, their estimates"},{"t":9875,"text":"and based on sort of, uh, a less. Um. Sort"},{"t":9883,"text":"of, you know, the cooling of the of the rental"},{"t":9885,"text":"market to some degree. So, um, yeah, I think it's"},{"t":9888,"text":"going to interrupt you because we are now out of"},{"t":9890,"text":"time. Okay. Uh, Councillor Heming, do you have subsequent questions?"},{"t":9895,"text":"As does Councillor Lauton. And so we're going to break"},{"t":9897,"text":"for lunch now. We are going to return at one"},{"t":9899,"text":"o'clock. I will note that we have failed to complete"},{"t":9903,"text":"two items on the Committee of the whole agenda today."},{"t":9906,"text":"And I would urge all of us to be more"},{"t":9909,"text":"discreet. And more concise in both our questions and answers."},{"t":9915,"text":"When we come back at one o'clock, we will attempt"},{"t":9917,"text":"to finish the remaining aspect of the Committee of Whole"},{"t":9920,"text":"Agenda. And then we will proceed with the daytime council."},{"t":9925,"text":"So you get one o'clock. Good afternoon everyone and welcome"},{"t":9927,"text":"back to the Committee of the Whole Meeting of Junior"},{"t":9930,"text":"18th of Victoria City Council. We are on item H1,"},{"t":9934,"text":"the staff report, which is the Victoria Housing Strategy annual"},{"t":9938,"text":"review. And just before we broke, Councillor Hammond has the"},{"t":9942,"text":"floor with some final questions. Thanks Mayor, I'm done with"},{"t":9947,"text":"questions. I'll wait for motivation. Very good. Councillor Loton, I"},{"t":9952,"text":"believe you had a question, did you? I had you"},{"t":9954,"text":"in my notes here. So you mayor, no questions I'd"},{"t":9959,"text":"just like to move the recommendation. Okay, so I'm going"},{"t":9963,"text":"to suggest that if the second or further recommendation, that"},{"t":9966,"text":"will debate all three, but I will seek the prophion"},{"t":9969,"text":"of council as to whether or not they wish to"},{"t":9971,"text":"separate them for voting. But for now, we'll take them"},{"t":9974,"text":"as a whole, and that way you can speak to"},{"t":9977,"text":"all three of them. So Councillor Loton has moved all"},{"t":9980,"text":"three of the recommendations. Councillor Kim is seconding. Councillor Louton,"},{"t":9983,"text":"over to you. Okay, so I'll just motivate briefly. I"},{"t":9987,"text":"want to start with noting what the standout thing. For"},{"t":9991,"text":"me in all of this, is that our vacancy rate"},{"t":9993,"text":"is now 3. 2 percent, and it was mentioned that"},{"t":9996,"text":"it hasn't been that high since 1999. So almost 30"},{"t":10001,"text":"years. And I think this is a cause for celebration."},{"t":10003,"text":"I think we should all be out in Centennial Square"},{"t":10005,"text":"having a big party about our vacancy rate, because that"},{"t":10008,"text":"is remarkable. So kudos to you staff for your role"},{"t":10014,"text":"in making that happen. Also, you're coming to the end"},{"t":10018,"text":"of a six - year plan. And you met the"},{"t":10022,"text":"goals, the housing targets have been exceeded. Some are significantly"},{"t":10029,"text":"exceeded, where some were still working on, but all in"},{"t":10033,"text":"all, you set out the task that you set for"},{"t":10036,"text":"yourself. So congratulations on that. We also, you know, it's"},{"t":10041,"text":"good to see in this housing review that the OCP"},{"t":10045,"text":"and Zoding Modernization has mentioned. The tenant protection during redevelopment"},{"t":10050,"text":"bylaw is so crucial and important. The development process improvements"},{"t":10055,"text":"are also really important to help developers save money and"},{"t":10060,"text":"get housing built faster. And then I like seeing the"},{"t":10065,"text":"way that the Community Safety and Wellbeing Plan is going"},{"t":10067,"text":"to be integrated into this in the future. And Net"},{"t":10072,"text":"New 1748 net new houses in 2025. Unbelievable. It's amazing"},{"t":10078,"text":"to see. It's a record year for building permits and"},{"t":10081,"text":"purpose - built rental construction, which translates to more choice"},{"t":10084,"text":"for renters and declining rents. I like seeing all the"},{"t":10089,"text":"affordable housing breakouts in here. I mean, that was something"},{"t":10093,"text":"I don't believe we saw as much in the 2024"},{"t":10096,"text":"and 2023 annual housing reviews. So I'm very happy to"},{"t":10101,"text":"see that because we really need to keep our eye"},{"t":10103,"text":"on non - market numbers and developments. So happy to"},{"t":10109,"text":"hear the 158 that opened in 2005, and I'm happy"},{"t":10114,"text":"to hear the eight more market projects coming under construction,"},{"t":10119,"text":"which will equal 813 homes. So that's huge. But also"},{"t":10124,"text":"I completely agree that the continued partnerships and investment, it's"},{"t":10130,"text":"mandatory. This doesn't happen with that. And I know there's"},{"t":10133,"text":"been a lot of advocacy around the community housing fund,"},{"t":10136,"text":"the urban BC Urban Mayors caucus that our mayor chairs"},{"t":10139,"text":"has done a lot of work to advocate to the"},{"t":10141,"text":"province about what are we doing with the Community Housing"},{"t":10144,"text":"Fund among other things. So that is crucial to keep"},{"t":10148,"text":"the fire under that advocacy. But we also need support"},{"t":10151,"text":"from the feds. We need Bill Canada Homes money on"},{"t":10154,"text":"this too. So that's, I believe, our jobs as politicians"},{"t":10158,"text":"to do that advocacy work. We do need more three"},{"t":10163,"text":"bedroom homes. We do need more missing middle homes. I"},{"t":10167,"text":"mentioned this in the item before. We're only at 46"},{"t":10171,"text":"percent of that. But I mean, that's just, still to"},{"t":10173,"text":"work on. And the new Affordable Non - Market Homes,"},{"t":10177,"text":"like we almost got there. The 2100 was the target"},{"t":10180,"text":"and we got to 90 percent of that. So we,"},{"t":10183,"text":"you know, the Community Housing Fund and all those pieces"},{"t":10185,"text":"are really critically important so that we can, um, meet"},{"t":10190,"text":"those needs. And I was asking questions about the non"},{"t":10194,"text":"- market breakout and really like critically for me is"},{"t":10198,"text":"tracking the deep subsidy units. Because without those units that"},{"t":10204,"text":"rent at 500 dollars or income assistance, we, we, um,"},{"t":10215,"text":"that's homelessness prevention. Right? That, that is absolutely mandatory. And"},{"t":10220,"text":"if we're going to integrate the Community Safety and well"},{"t":10223,"text":"- being planned into the planning department and the housing"},{"t":10227,"text":"strategy, I don't think that we can wait until 2000,"},{"t":10231,"text":"or part of me, uh, 2028 to incorporate tracking those"},{"t":10235,"text":"numbers or having targets for them. Um, and I know"},{"t":10239,"text":"that they're really difficult to build because they have to"},{"t":10242,"text":"come with the RGI, the rent gear, sorry, the rent"},{"t":10246,"text":"gear to income and the near market units as well."},{"t":10250,"text":"But if we have numbers, there's other things we can"},{"t":10252,"text":"do in terms of providing rent supplements to help people"},{"t":10256,"text":"bridge that the distance in money so that people that"},{"t":10261,"text":"require deep subsidy can actually access it through rent subsidies."},{"t":10265,"text":"So I'm not going to do any kind of amendment"},{"t":10268,"text":"or anything around that today because I need to talk"},{"t":10270,"text":"to, um, the city manager, cause I don't under, I"},{"t":10274,"text":"don't have enough information about this. I may, if necessary"},{"t":10278,"text":"bring a Council member motion at a future date around"},{"t":10281,"text":"tracking those, those deep subsidy units. That's my only sort"},{"t":10285,"text":"of thing that I think needs to be flagged here."},{"t":10288,"text":"But other than that, you have, I'm going to use"},{"t":10291,"text":"one of the mayor's words. You've done Yeoman's work. And"},{"t":10294,"text":"it's incredible. You've, you've, you hit your targets, our vacancy"},{"t":10298,"text":"rate is at 3. 2 percent all of you. Thank"},{"t":10301,"text":"you very much. Happy to support all of this. Thank"},{"t":10304,"text":"you very much. Councillor Kim is the seconder. Um, thanks"},{"t":10310,"text":"through the chair. I think my observations here are really"},{"t":10315,"text":"more just thank you to you. For synthesizing a very"},{"t":10322,"text":"difficult topic to synthesize. There are so many moving parts."},{"t":10329,"text":"And as you have reiterated throughout your answers, there are"},{"t":10332,"text":"so many external factors that we cannot predict either. And"},{"t":10335,"text":"yet here you are trying to lay out a snapshot."},{"t":10339,"text":"Um, over a period of time. And this is a"},{"t":10341,"text":"snapshot that is also, it's numbers on paper, but it's,"},{"t":10346,"text":"it's people's homes. It's people's livelihoods. It's, it's where they"},{"t":10349,"text":"find security. And well - being. And so, um, I"},{"t":10354,"text":"think part of what I'm trying to say too is"},{"t":10357,"text":"I also appreciate that you bring the people into this"},{"t":10360,"text":"as well. Um, so congratulations, Planner Soward on your new"},{"t":10368,"text":"addition to your family. And you bring the story alive"},{"t":10372,"text":"of what we're trying to accomplish here. So thank you"},{"t":10375,"text":"to each of you. Thank you very much. Anybody else."},{"t":10379,"text":"Those are Coleman. Thank you. And through you your worship."},{"t":10386,"text":"I'll offer my thanks to staff as well. Um, there"},{"t":10389,"text":"is a caution that goes with it. However, we get"},{"t":10393,"text":"caught in the moment. And we're thrilled that the vacancy"},{"t":10396,"text":"rate is 3. 2 percent. I'm one of those old"},{"t":10402,"text":"timers. I remember Wendy Zinc sitting there when she was,"},{"t":10405,"text":"uh, Senior Planner for social planning. Reminding Council of the"},{"t":10411,"text":"Day that we were going to be in a housing"},{"t":10414,"text":"crisis, anytime the vacancy rate was below four percent since"},{"t":10422,"text":"1982. So we still have targets to do. And I"},{"t":10427,"text":"think in that caution, we need to recognise the different."},{"t":10432,"text":"Units right throughout the housing continuum and the affordability function."},{"t":10437,"text":"Um, they're different. They are interrelated, but there's a whole"},{"t":10441,"text":"slew of our citizens who can't afford life at the"},{"t":10444,"text":"moment. And they're always being forced on the edge. So"},{"t":10447,"text":"that led to some of my questions earlier. But I"},{"t":10451,"text":"think that this is the right direction and it's, I"},{"t":10455,"text":"don't know if all the goals will be achievable, but"},{"t":10457,"text":"they're certainly aspirational and should be guiding us. Thank you."},{"t":10461,"text":"Thank you very much. Anybody else. Councillor Thompson. Thanks"},{"t":10470,"text":"Mayor. And I would, uh, like to echo my colleagues"},{"t":10474,"text":"in thanking staff for the report and also for the"},{"t":10478,"text":"amazing work that they've been doing, the housing policy picture."},{"t":10482,"text":"Is a lot better than it was at the beginning"},{"t":10485,"text":"of the strategy. And we're starting to see maybe some,"},{"t":10490,"text":"some results from that. And I say maybe, uh, the"},{"t":10494,"text":"vacancy rate is up. It's approaching a balanced level of"},{"t":10497,"text":"four percent. Of that maybe due to supply, um, some"},{"t":10502,"text":"of it is certainly due to immigration policy. Uh, and"},{"t":10507,"text":"I would just note that that immigration policy changes on"},{"t":10510,"text":"a dime, um, whereas, uh, building housing, uh, the supply"},{"t":10514,"text":"side takes a lot longer. Um,"},{"t":10517,"text":"also, um,"},{"t":10527,"text":"that's a balanced, um, rate. It's not a, you know,"},{"t":10532,"text":"a target to hit at once and then let it"},{"t":10534,"text":"go. So, uh, while I think the policy picture is"},{"t":10537,"text":"better, the results are still not, uh, fully hitting for"},{"t":10542,"text":"people. We're still hearing, uh, people say that rents are"},{"t":10545,"text":"astronomical and they're right. Uh, people are having to leave"},{"t":10550,"text":"Victoria to find a place that they can afford to"},{"t":10552,"text":"live in. So, um, we're not there yet. Um, switching"},{"t":10558,"text":"over to population, projections, um, there have been a few"},{"t":10563,"text":"people, uh, online doing their own research, which reminds me"},{"t":10568,"text":"of, of the sculpture and obey called modern man does"},{"t":10572,"text":"research. I would encourage anyone interested in, in fact -"},{"t":10577,"text":"based conversations to have a look at that sculpture. Um,"},{"t":10580,"text":"but the reality is that the latest projections are for"},{"t":10584,"text":"population growth of 800 to 1000 or more people per"},{"t":10589,"text":"year in Victoria. So we're going to have to accommodate"},{"t":10593,"text":"all those people with, uh, more housing every year. And"},{"t":10597,"text":"we have to chip away at that, uh, latent demand"},{"t":10600,"text":"of 8, 000 to 9, 000 units. Um, and I"},{"t":10603,"text":"would like to see that happen sooner rather than later."},{"t":10607,"text":"We did hear from staff that, uh, that that's their"},{"t":10610,"text":"intention as well. So I'm hoping that the results will"},{"t":10613,"text":"show that. We need to keep building homes. So, uh,"},{"t":10618,"text":"while there's a good moment here to give ourselves a"},{"t":10621,"text":"pat on the back or rather to give staff a"},{"t":10624,"text":"pat on the back, um, we also need to not"},{"t":10627,"text":"take our foot off the gas. Thanks Mayor. Thank you"},{"t":10631,"text":"very much. Anybody else. Let's gardener."},{"t":10641,"text":"Thank you. The 2019 housing strategy targets have been met"},{"t":10645,"text":"and exceeded in some areas. Thank you very much for"},{"t":10647,"text":"the pork. It is clear on that. But now maybe"},{"t":10651,"text":"the time to pivot. I'm very concerned about our elderly"},{"t":10654,"text":"and those with mobility challenges. The game of adaptability instead"},{"t":10658,"text":"of accessibility should end. I am also concerned with the"},{"t":10661,"text":"data. We need more complete information going forward and more"},{"t":10665,"text":"current data, which worries me in the, um, recommendations two"},{"t":10670,"text":"and three. Going to the public for feedback after the"},{"t":10673,"text":"housing industry has been involved in the policy development is"},{"t":10676,"text":"too late. I had hoped that the comments, the unrest"},{"t":10679,"text":"and the divide about OCP 2050 would have meant something."},{"t":10686,"text":"That's really it. I guess my time's probably up. Thank"},{"t":10689,"text":"you. You're welcome. Everybody else comes your hand. Thanks Mayor."},{"t":10697,"text":"I'm afraid I'm not celebrating the way others might be."},{"t":10701,"text":"In 2024 overall rents went up 7. 1 percent in"},{"t":10705,"text":"2025. They went up 5. 7 percent And so when"},{"t":10708,"text":"staff write that there's quote a more choice for renters,"},{"t":10712,"text":"um, there's not. There is at the higher end of"},{"t":10715,"text":"the market. That's no problem. People can go and find"},{"t":10719,"text":"something at the higher end. Um, but no one can"},{"t":10722,"text":"point towards an older building where someone moves out and"},{"t":10724,"text":"the rent goes down. The rent goes up and in"},{"t":10727,"text":"many circumstances, it will go, um, up considerably, especially when"},{"t":10732,"text":"you consider that one of the older buildings, you get"},{"t":10735,"text":"more space. The new buildings, many of the apartments are"},{"t":10739,"text":"tiny. So the difficulty is it's, no one is paying"},{"t":10743,"text":"anywhere near what the last tenant was paying. And of"},{"t":10746,"text":"course we're not helping as a council when during our"},{"t":10749,"text":"term residential housing taxes went up 35. 52 percent. Um,"},{"t":10754,"text":"we're also not helping by our OCP where we invite"},{"t":10758,"text":"builders, building owners to sell to real estate investment trusts"},{"t":10762,"text":"and other developers where truly affordable housing is torn down,"},{"t":10766,"text":"replacing it with much, much higher rents, even if some"},{"t":10769,"text":"of those market rents have gone down slightly. And I"},{"t":10774,"text":"don't get me started on laten demand. There is no"},{"t":10776,"text":"such thing as if we had true latent demand, the"},{"t":10782,"text":"moment at any, at any level. So as soon as"},{"t":10785,"text":"a place comes available, it would be taken. That's not"},{"t":10788,"text":"the case. The case is that we've got a lot"},{"t":10790,"text":"of people who cannot afford market rents. And they are"},{"t":10795,"text":"not, we do not need this kind of latent demand"},{"t":10798,"text":"to be doing our work on that. We need to"},{"t":10800,"text":"come up with affordable housing for them. Whether it's supportive"},{"t":10803,"text":"housing or affordable housing or deeply affordable housing or just"},{"t":10806,"text":"stuff that's reasonable for people, the latent demand, if we"},{"t":10810,"text":"look at it and they go, Oh, we just got"},{"t":10811,"text":"to keep building. There's already a ton of those, um,"},{"t":10815,"text":"apartments that are available right now when it's 3. 2"},{"t":10817,"text":"percent. And mayor, is there going to be an opportunity"},{"t":10822,"text":"to separate and talk about number two or should I"},{"t":10824,"text":"do that now? Uh, you should speak to it now,"},{"t":10826,"text":"but we will vote on them separately. Okay. All right."},{"t":10829,"text":"So when it comes to the, um, when it comes"},{"t":10832,"text":"to the population increases, they don't change on a dime."},{"t":10836,"text":"Um, as a matter of fact, BC stats in their"},{"t":10839,"text":"latest PEO PLE projections were released in December. The City"},{"t":10844,"text":"of Victoria is now projected to add only about 2,"},{"t":10848,"text":"600 residents between 2024 and 2034. That's roughly an 84"},{"t":10853,"text":"percent reduction from the growth experience of the previous decade."},{"t":10856,"text":"So I got no problem. Like, you know, we could,"},{"t":10859,"text":"if we want, we can say builders come in and"},{"t":10862,"text":"do what you want. They're not going to build for"},{"t":10865,"text":"places where they can't because it's so expensive, they've got"},{"t":10869,"text":"to get market rents unless there's money or, or some"},{"t":10872,"text":"deals that are thrown in in order to get less"},{"t":10874,"text":"than market rent. And so the thing is no one"},{"t":10877,"text":"is going to build the difficulty and it's in conjunction"},{"t":10880,"text":"with our OCP is that someone suddenly comes next door"},{"t":10883,"text":"to you and builds this gigantic thing that is not"},{"t":10886,"text":"necessary. We do not need this kind of building that's"},{"t":10889,"text":"going on our house. That was decided by the OCP,"},{"t":10893,"text":"the majority of Council went along with that. So it's"},{"t":10895,"text":"not about, um, it's not about re - arguing that,"},{"t":10899,"text":"but don't tell me that because of the wonderful work"},{"t":10901,"text":"of our OCP that that's going to be good for"},{"t":10903,"text":"people when they tear down affordable rents. And then there's"},{"t":10906,"text":"way more expensive rents. And six months as the maximum"},{"t":10909,"text":"for people to get compensation six months of rent, if"},{"t":10912,"text":"you've been there 19 years or longer is that that's"},{"t":10916,"text":"criminal. And my hope is when staff comes back, but"},{"t":10919,"text":"no print. Well, no, lots of pressure on them. I"},{"t":10921,"text":"hope that they'll come closer to the motion that I"},{"t":10924,"text":"made in May of 2025 when I said it should"},{"t":10927,"text":"be one month for every year that they've been there"},{"t":10930,"text":"up to 19 months. So on this one, um, number"},{"t":10933,"text":"one, I can certainly vote to receive the information. Number"},{"t":10937,"text":"two, I would not be voting in favor of that"},{"t":10939,"text":"because I do not agree with the housing goalposts. We"},{"t":10943,"text":"can put all we want. They're not going to build"},{"t":10945,"text":"it. And yet someone can end up with a huge"},{"t":10947,"text":"thing beside you. You're out of time. Thank you. Anybody"},{"t":10952,"text":"else. Checking online? Nope. Okay. Oh, cancel. Yes, you have"},{"t":10959,"text":"58 seconds. By all means. We have thousands of units"},{"t":10965,"text":"under construction now. And those number of units are probably"},{"t":10970,"text":"larger than the real. Population increase of anticipated. Thank you."},{"t":10976,"text":"Thank you very much. I will just add a couple"},{"t":10981,"text":"of very brief comments. I won't repeat, but I agree"},{"t":10984,"text":"with all of the positive comments that have been made"},{"t":10986,"text":"by my colleagues. I do want to comment on the,"},{"t":10991,"text":"uh, extraordinary work of staff who have managed to, uh,"},{"t":10995,"text":"execute the design that began by the previous council in"},{"t":10998,"text":"2018 and 2019. In creating this plan and the fact"},{"t":11002,"text":"that it has come to fruition and then some over"},{"t":11005,"text":"those years, uh, I think speaks primarily to what I"},{"t":11009,"text":"hope was a logical vision at that time, but more"},{"t":11011,"text":"clearly to the ability of staff to actually execute those"},{"t":11015,"text":"visions. Uh, my concerns, if I have any, would be"},{"t":11018,"text":"slightly different tone in that I'm not actually certain that"},{"t":11021,"text":"this is sufficiently aggressive looking forward. I do think there's"},{"t":11024,"text":"some additional work that needs to be done particularly in"},{"t":11027,"text":"pinpointing, uh, new policies that will accelerate and support, um,"},{"t":11032,"text":"afford affordability, accessibility and the provisions of protecting existing renters."},{"t":11038,"text":"And I think those are all pieces of work that"},{"t":11041,"text":"council is aware of staff is aware of and will"},{"t":11044,"text":"likely be on the work plans in the coming months"},{"t":11046,"text":"and years, which I know, uh, I would certainly support."},{"t":11051,"text":"Mostly I guess we have to just think the persistence"},{"t":11056,"text":"maybe that's a good word of staff who have lived"},{"t":11058,"text":"through several councils now who have tried to bring some"},{"t":11062,"text":"order to the desire to ensure that there is enough"},{"t":11066,"text":"housing for people. And I think you've done an extraordinary"},{"t":11070,"text":"amount of work to try and find those balance points,"},{"t":11073,"text":"not necessarily always helpfully from the perspective of council's help"},{"t":11077,"text":"because sometimes we've given you conflicting advice. Um, but you"},{"t":11080,"text":"have taken the germs of that and made something that"},{"t":11083,"text":"was achievable and which has been recognised across the country"},{"t":11086,"text":"for its success. Yes. There is more to do. And"},{"t":11089,"text":"certainly on those points that I've raised, but we should"},{"t":11091,"text":"at least for a moment take a time to thank"},{"t":11093,"text":"you for what you've done so far. And warn you"},{"t":11096,"text":"that more is coming. So thanks for your presentation today."},{"t":11100,"text":"And I thank you for your ongoing work. With that,"},{"t":11103,"text":"we are going to vote on these separately because it"},{"t":11104,"text":"was requested earlier in the conversation. So we'll do them"},{"t":11107,"text":"one at a time. So I would ask someone to"},{"t":11109,"text":"move number one, please. Just receipt of the report. Thanks"},{"t":11113,"text":"Councillor Gardner, Second of my Councillor Coleman. Any discussion on"},{"t":11115,"text":"receipt. Seeing nonovos in favor. Anybody opposed. And is unanimous."},{"t":11124,"text":"On number two, it's someone like to move number two,"},{"t":11126,"text":"please. Thanks Councillor Lothan is moving number two. Councillor Kim"},{"t":11131,"text":"is moving number two. A second name number two. Any"},{"t":11133,"text":"further discussion to number two. Seeing none, all those in"},{"t":11136,"text":"favor. I'll have to do this online. Councillor Thompson is"},{"t":11141,"text":"in favor Councillor Dell is in favor Councillor Kim is"},{"t":11144,"text":"in favor, Councillor Louton is in favor. I am in"},{"t":11147,"text":"favor, Councillor Coleman is in favor. And opposition Councillor Hemmand"},{"t":11150,"text":"and Councillor Gardner. Someone, so that is two noting two"},{"t":11153,"text":"in opposition number two is also endorsed. Number three, would"},{"t":11157,"text":"someone like to move number three? Please Councillor Kim is"},{"t":11159,"text":"moving. Councillor Lothion is seconding. Councillor Kimmer Load in any"},{"t":11163,"text":"further comments. Anyone else any further comments number three. Not"},{"t":11167,"text":"seeing anyone. All those in favor of number three. Councillor"},{"t":11169,"text":"Dell's in favor Councillor Thompson's in favor Councillor Kim is"},{"t":11172,"text":"in favor. Councillor Loton, myself Council Coleman Councillor Hammond. And"},{"t":11176,"text":"opposition Councillor Gardner. Noting one in opposition. Number three is"},{"t":11181,"text":"endorsed and adopted as well. Thank you, staff, for that"},{"t":11184,"text":"able presentation and all the work that went behind it."},{"t":11188,"text":"That would take us to a closed meeting. Would we"},{"t":11190,"text":"require when a committee? What we do not today. And"},{"t":11192,"text":"so I will look for a motion to adjourn committee."},{"t":11195,"text":"Thank you Councillor Coleman's second backcounser kit. All those in"},{"t":11197,"text":"favor, anyone opposed. That is unanimous. We will just pause"},{"t":11201,"text":"long enough for Council and staff to be able to"},{"t":11204,"text":"be moved into their Council meeting and then we will"},{"t":11206,"text":"start right away."}],"words":27636,"fetchedAt":"2026-10-03T05:09:14.523Z"}