{"videoId":"https://video.isilive.ca/victoria/New%20Encoder_COTW_2026-07-23-12-03.mp4","source":"isilive_vtt","segments":[{"t":3,"text":"And welcome to the Thursday, July 23rd meeting of Victoria"},{"t":6,"text":"City Council's Committee of the Whole. Today we have for"},{"t":10,"text":"our consideration a presentation from and a conversation with our"},{"t":14,"text":"police chief. We have two staff reports and one Council"},{"t":17,"text":"Member Motion. But of course before we begin our work"},{"t":21,"text":"together, we always like to take a moment to ground"},{"t":23,"text":"ourselves in the recognition and expression of gratitude to the"},{"t":27,"text":"two nations on whose territories are City sits in its"},{"t":29,"text":"entirety. Those would be, of course, the nations of the"},{"t":33,"text":"La Quangan people, the Songhees Nation in the COSAPSON Nation."},{"t":36,"text":"They have for so many decades, so many generations taken"},{"t":40,"text":"the time and thoughtfulness and commitment to steward these lands"},{"t":44,"text":"and the waters that surround them in a way which"},{"t":46,"text":"has reflected their history that many, many thousands of years"},{"t":49,"text":"of their history, but also the challenges that their people"},{"t":52,"text":"have faced and those who have come after have faced."},{"t":55,"text":"We continue to treasure and value the fact that they"},{"t":59,"text":"are so generous in their time with us currently, and"},{"t":62,"text":"that they continue to believe that the relationships that we"},{"t":64,"text":"have forged so far are valuable to all of us."},{"t":67,"text":"And the richness of those relationships continue to be nurtured"},{"t":70,"text":"by all of those of us who have the opportunity"},{"t":73,"text":"to work together. We always want to say thank you"},{"t":76,"text":"and also to express that in the simplest of terms"},{"t":79,"text":"in the language of the LeQuangan people, which most people"},{"t":81,"text":"now know is Hydricas Yevnaquilia, to say thank you, and"},{"t":84,"text":"I express my honour and respect to those elders who"},{"t":87,"text":"are giving us the guidance that we all need, and"},{"t":90,"text":"also to anyone in the community who takes a moment"},{"t":92,"text":"each day to try and do something that will improve"},{"t":94,"text":"the life of someone else. We look to the elders"},{"t":97,"text":"of both nations to provide us with guidance, to provide"},{"t":100,"text":"us with history, to provide us with vision. And so"},{"t":104,"text":"we say hi to Kasivnaquilia, do you all. Have no"},{"t":109,"text":"particular chairs remarks to add to the agenda this morning."},{"t":113,"text":"I will note for you that Councillor Dell is just"},{"t":116,"text":"running a little bit late. We'll be joining us shortly,"},{"t":118,"text":"and Councillor Thompson is in fact joining us online. I"},{"t":122,"text":"will just note for those of you who are in"},{"t":123,"text":"the gallery that we expect the first item, which is"},{"t":125,"text":"the presentation from the police chief, to take some time."},{"t":128,"text":"And so if you are here for a later item,"},{"t":130,"text":"which I suspect that you are, you are likely not"},{"t":132,"text":"going to be there for at least an hour, perhaps"},{"t":134,"text":"longer. Just in an effort to ensure that you have"},{"t":137,"text":"an ability to manage your time this morning. I'm not"},{"t":141,"text":"aware of any late items that need to be added"},{"t":142,"text":"to the agenda, so I would look for someone to"},{"t":144,"text":"move the published agenda. Thanks Councillor Coleman, seconded by Councillor"},{"t":148,"text":"Carey Donah. Any comments on the published agenda. Not seeing"},{"t":152,"text":"any of those in favor. Oh, go ahead, please Council"},{"t":154,"text":"Gardin. I will be asking for an increase in time"},{"t":158,"text":"allotted for item G2. And the time committed accession of"},{"t":164,"text":"the time permitted. When we do that. When I get"},{"t":167,"text":"that. You can do that at that time, yes, so"},{"t":169,"text":"that we have the ability to discuss it as a"},{"t":170,"text":"single request on a single item. Partner couldn't hear you."},{"t":174,"text":"I'm having a little trouble actually hearing Councillor Gardner. Is"},{"t":176,"text":"there some type of an echo in the chamber? I"},{"t":178,"text":"wonder if you could check that as a staff person."},{"t":181,"text":"Because I think the significant echo with all of the"},{"t":184,"text":"microphones. Let's try that Council Gardner, do you want to"},{"t":187,"text":"try that again? Thank you. So we'll do that when"},{"t":192,"text":"we get to G2. Yes, correct. And I'll have time"},{"t":194,"text":"separate from my tan to raise that issue. Thank you"},{"t":196,"text":"very much. And how much time will that be? Well,"},{"t":199,"text":"we'll discuss the matter in the usual protocol so you"},{"t":202,"text":"can make a motion to suspend the rules for that"},{"t":204,"text":"item. And we'll deal with that item separately. Yes. And"},{"t":207,"text":"how much time do I get to motivate for that"},{"t":209,"text":"motion. Of extended time? I would consider that a separate"},{"t":212,"text":"item, so you would have up to 10 minutes. Thank"},{"t":213,"text":"you very much. With that then, as a really discussion"},{"t":217,"text":"on the agenda as published. Not seeing any checking online."},{"t":222,"text":"All those in favor, anyone opposed. That is unanimous. Thank"},{"t":226,"text":"you for that. There was one item that is proposed"},{"t":229,"text":"for the consent agenda, and that is the Council Member"},{"t":231,"text":"Motion with regard to enforcement against derelict buildings neglected properties"},{"t":235,"text":"and vacant commercial space. Does anyone wish to add any"},{"t":238,"text":"items or to remove that one item? Not seeing any"},{"t":245,"text":"interest in doing that. So with someone like to move"},{"t":247,"text":"the consent agenda, please. Councillor Coleman and Councillor Lawton. All"},{"t":251,"text":"those in favor. Anyone opposed. That is also unanimous. That"},{"t":258,"text":"takes us on then to our presentation. And so we"},{"t":261,"text":"would invite up, and I could see in the gallery"},{"t":262,"text":"the police chief. Feel free to bring anyone with you"},{"t":266,"text":"from your staff that you feel are helpful. We'll give"},{"t":270,"text":"you a minute to get settled. And then off you"},{"t":272,"text":"go. We will, as usual, allow you time to make"},{"t":276,"text":"your presentation as you like. Uh, we haven't seen you"},{"t":278,"text":"in a while, so we're expecting that it will be"},{"t":281,"text":"fairly fulsome. Uh, you can certainly introduce your colleagues when"},{"t":286,"text":"you get settled. And then once you finish your presentation,"},{"t":289,"text":"we'll open the floor for questions from council, but we'll"},{"t":292,"text":"let you go through your presentation in its entirety without"},{"t":295,"text":"interruption. And we'll save our questions for the app. Over"},{"t":298,"text":"to you. And welcome. Wonderful, thank you. Good morning, everyone."},{"t":305,"text":"Mayor Alto and Council members. It is wonderful to be"},{"t":309,"text":"here with you today, and I want to thank you"},{"t":311,"text":"for the opportunity to present. Today we will share updates"},{"t":316,"text":"across six key areas. Community safety, downtown safety, recruitment, HR,"},{"t":323,"text":"training, operational excellence, and public trust. But before I do"},{"t":329,"text":"that, it is my absolute pleasure to introduce our brand"},{"t":333,"text":"new Deputy Chief Natalie Hiltz, who was sworn in to"},{"t":337,"text":"the Victoria Police Department, uh, on Tuesday. Natalie comes to"},{"t":342,"text":"us with over 30 years of policing experience. She was"},{"t":346,"text":"formerly with the Peel Police Service. And in the last"},{"t":351,"text":"three years has been the deputy chief at the greater"},{"t":354,"text":"Sudbury Police Service where she oversaw the operations division. So"},{"t":358,"text":"we are absolutely thrilled to welcome Natalie on board and"},{"t":362,"text":"are really excited to take full advantage of the experience"},{"t":365,"text":"that she brings to the table. We also have WU"},{"t":369,"text":"Chief Jamie McCray, who I know you are all very"},{"t":371,"text":"familiar with. And I'm very grateful to have both of"},{"t":374,"text":"them with me here today. The updates today are intended"},{"t":378,"text":"to provide counsel with a clear picture of our current"},{"t":381,"text":"operating environment. The progress underway at the department and how"},{"t":386,"text":"we continue to work to meet the evolving needs of"},{"t":389,"text":"the communities we serve. Following the presentation of course, I"},{"t":394,"text":"am more than pleased to answer any questions. Council may"},{"t":396,"text":"have. Could I have the next slide, please? Oh, I"},{"t":400,"text":"can do this. Yes, you can. There we go. Wonderful."},{"t":404,"text":"Uh, I want to first turn to community safety and"},{"t":407,"text":"calls for service our members respond to every day. So"},{"t":410,"text":"far in 2026, Vic PD has responded to 27, 053"},{"t":416,"text":"calls for service. And this is 8. 7 percent higher"},{"t":421,"text":"than this period last year. While calls for service data"},{"t":425,"text":"does not capture every aspect of police work as you"},{"t":428,"text":"all well know. It's an important measure of operational demand."},{"t":433,"text":"And the realities are frontline officers are encountering across our"},{"t":437,"text":"communities. While this increase certainly reflects growing demand, it also"},{"t":442,"text":"reflects our increased authorized strength and capacity to undertake proactive"},{"t":448,"text":"policing. With additional positions such as our foot patrol team,"},{"t":452,"text":"are officers are better able to identify challenges and focus"},{"t":455,"text":"on specific areas of community concern. Rather than responding only"},{"t":460,"text":"when incidents are reported to us. As a result, an"},{"t":464,"text":"increase in calls for service should not be interpreted solely"},{"t":468,"text":"as an increase in crime. It can also demonstrate a"},{"t":472,"text":"greater police presence. And increase in the willingness of the"},{"t":476,"text":"public to pick up the phone and call us, and"},{"t":480,"text":"more proactive interventions. And certainly with our foot patrol team,"},{"t":483,"text":"we are seeing that. And I'll talk about that a"},{"t":485,"text":"little later. The overall increase, unfortunately, is being driven primarily"},{"t":491,"text":"by social order calls. This is a very broad call"},{"t":495,"text":"type category that may include incidents such as a person"},{"t":498,"text":"who may be camping in a doorway of a business."},{"t":502,"text":"An individual who may be in mental health crisis or"},{"t":504,"text":"someone who's screaming and yelling on the sidewalk, for example."},{"t":509,"text":"In fact, Vic PPD has responded to 9, 159 of"},{"t":514,"text":"these incidents alone this year. Once again, this is in"},{"t":520,"text":"part due to the proactive work that our foot patrol"},{"t":523,"text":"team is doing. And as I say, I'll talk a"},{"t":525,"text":"little bit about that later. But it's also a reflection"},{"t":529,"text":"of the complex societal issues that are plaguing communities across"},{"t":533,"text":"this province and country and that we're certainly facing in"},{"t":537,"text":"Victoria such as the toxic drug crisis and mental health"},{"t":540,"text":"challenges. And I'll spend some time talking about the toxicity"},{"t":544,"text":"of the illicit drug supply later. I want to emphasize"},{"t":548,"text":"that our response to social order issues is never enforcement"},{"t":553,"text":"alone. Our officers continue to work closely with island health,"},{"t":558,"text":"by - law services, BC housing, outreach teams, housing providers,"},{"t":562,"text":"shelters, and many, many other community partners to connect individuals"},{"t":566,"text":"with appropriate supports wherever possible. Enforcement remains one tool available"},{"t":573,"text":"to us, but our goal is always to balance public"},{"t":577,"text":"safety with compassion, ensuring people are directed towards services and"},{"t":581,"text":"supports. Whenever it is safe and appropriate to do so."},{"t":586,"text":"Uh, in other statistics, traffic related calls were up 3."},{"t":591,"text":"5 percent primarily related to hit and run incidents primarily"},{"t":596,"text":"in parking lots. We continue to partner with the integrated"},{"t":600,"text":"road safety unit to deploy targeted enforcement focusing on driving"},{"t":604,"text":"behaviours that create the greatest risks on our roads, including"},{"t":608,"text":"speeding, distracted driving, and impaired driving. And I hope particularly"},{"t":612,"text":"at the beginning of the year, you've seen some of"},{"t":614,"text":"those social media campaigns that we engaged in to try"},{"t":617,"text":"and educate the public with respect to safe driving habits."},{"t":621,"text":"We were very encouraged to see that property crime related"},{"t":625,"text":"incidents have fallen two percent so far this year. And"},{"t":630,"text":"this is year over year comparisons for the same period."},{"t":633,"text":"And violent offences fell 5. 1 percent. So I'd like"},{"t":639,"text":"to talk a little bit about property crime trends, despite"},{"t":642,"text":"the drop of course this remains an important community safety"},{"t":646,"text":"focus for us. It affects residents and businesses directly and"},{"t":650,"text":"can have a significant impact on people's sense of safety."},{"t":653,"text":"I just want to highlight one example of some of"},{"t":656,"text":"the work that we've been doing at Vic PD and"},{"t":659,"text":"talk very briefly about a common property offence in Victoria"},{"t":663,"text":"bicycle theft. An area where targeted enforcement, prevention and provincial"},{"t":669,"text":"funding and partnerships have really been producing, encouraging results. And"},{"t":675,"text":"this is a great blueprint of what works with respect"},{"t":678,"text":"to property crime. Bicycle theft has historically been a significant"},{"t":682,"text":"issue here in Victoria, as I know you all are"},{"t":685,"text":"well aware. In fact, at its peak in 2015, more"},{"t":688,"text":"than 800 bikes were stolen in a single year. Through"},{"t":694,"text":"provincial C - step funding, which Vic PDE successfully applied"},{"t":698,"text":"for, we've been able to dedicate additional resources to identifying"},{"t":702,"text":"and targeting individuals involved in bicycle theft, recovering stolen bikes"},{"t":707,"text":"and disrupting the resale of stolen property. And we are"},{"t":711,"text":"seeing really positive results, um, from this focused approach. Between"},{"t":717,"text":"January and July of this year, 239 bicycle thefts were"},{"t":722,"text":"reported. This is down from 280 during the same period"},{"t":726,"text":"in 2025. A decrease of almost 15 percent. The July"},{"t":731,"text":"numbers are particularly encouraging. By bicycle thefts decline from 64"},{"t":736,"text":"in July to 36 in July, sorry, 64 in July"},{"t":740,"text":"of 2025 to 36 in July of 2026. A decrease"},{"t":744,"text":"of approximately 44 percent. And our work is not limited"},{"t":748,"text":"to reducing theft. We're also recovering more stolen bikes and"},{"t":752,"text":"returning them to their rightful owners, helping to reduce the"},{"t":755,"text":"personal and financial impact on victims. While the more work"},{"t":760,"text":"to do these outcomes demonstrate the value of targeted enforcement"},{"t":764,"text":"through provincial funding and coordinated initiatives, such as the repeat"},{"t":768,"text":"violent offender intervention initiative. And the brand new chronic property"},{"t":773,"text":"offending intervention initiative that Vic PPD is playing a significant"},{"t":778,"text":"role in. The province launched that initiative, um, in fact,"},{"t":783,"text":"I believe it was on the news this morning that"},{"t":785,"text":"they were announcing it. It's very similar to Revoy. It"},{"t":788,"text":"provides a coordinated response to repeat offending with a specific"},{"t":791,"text":"focus in this case on chronic property crime. It brings"},{"t":796,"text":"together police, crown, probation, correctional supervisors, um, community integration specialists,"},{"t":803,"text":"mental health representatives, and forensic psychiatric services. These partners all"},{"t":808,"text":"work collaboratively in a very focused effort to identify individuals"},{"t":814,"text":"who are require enhanced supervision, but also require enhanced resources"},{"t":819,"text":"and access to those resources. Vic PD is actively participating"},{"t":824,"text":"in the initiative and has identified individuals for consideration using"},{"t":828,"text":"the programs established criteria. And this model recognises that enforcement"},{"t":833,"text":"remains essential. But of course enforcement alone will not resolve"},{"t":838,"text":"chronic re - offending. Lasting results require that coordinated approach."},{"t":845,"text":"I now want to turn to the toxic drug crisis,"},{"t":848,"text":"and I know the discussion in this room with respect"},{"t":852,"text":"to this. It's an issue that continues to cause profound"},{"t":856,"text":"harm in our community. It's becoming increasingly complex. Being presence"},{"t":861,"text":"of metatomidine in the unregulated drug supply. And I know"},{"t":864,"text":"you've had a lot of discussion about this and contemplated"},{"t":869,"text":"the terrible impacts that this drug is having on the"},{"t":872,"text":"illicit drug supply. Metatomedine, as you know, is a powerful"},{"t":877,"text":"veterinary sedative that is not approved for human use. It"},{"t":881,"text":"was first identified by health Canada's drug analysis services in"},{"t":886,"text":"Ontario and Quebec in May of 2022. And first detected"},{"t":890,"text":"in BC in June of 2023. And then in Victoria,"},{"t":895,"text":"in July of 2024. Those were at relatively low numbers."},{"t":901,"text":"Since mid - 2024 detections have, unfortunately, increase significantly across"},{"t":906,"text":"BC. And by March, 2026, it now, um, it presented"},{"t":913,"text":"in approximately one third of presumed opioid samples that were"},{"t":918,"text":"submitted for drug checking across the province. So this is"},{"t":921,"text":"no longer being considered a bad batch. Public health officials"},{"t":927,"text":"have described metatomadine as part of a sustained change in"},{"t":931,"text":"the illicit opioid supply. And I know you're well aware"},{"t":936,"text":"of the impact that the substance has on overdoses. Um,"},{"t":942,"text":"they cause drug poisonings to be more prolonged and medically"},{"t":946,"text":"complex. And of course naloxone can reverse the opioid component"},{"t":950,"text":"of the poisoning, but it does not reverse the sedative"},{"t":954,"text":"effects of metatomidine. So a person can remain deeply sedated"},{"t":959,"text":"and require continued breathing support. Close monitoring and emergency medical"},{"t":963,"text":"care even after naloxone has been administered. Victoria is unfortunately"},{"t":969,"text":"experiencing trends consistent with what's being reported across the province."},{"t":974,"text":"Our frontline officers are seeing the effects of the changing"},{"t":978,"text":"drug supply firsthand and are increasingly called upon to provide"},{"t":982,"text":"immediate life - saving assistance. In May, Vic Petey's tactical"},{"t":988,"text":"emergency medical support, a medic team issued a department -"},{"t":992,"text":"wide reminder after noting a significant increase in the amount"},{"t":995,"text":"of naloxone being administered. Officers were reminded to check their"},{"t":1000,"text":"naloxone supplies. And Irnloxone kits are all provided to our"},{"t":1004,"text":"frontline members through funding from the province that was just"},{"t":1007,"text":"recently confirmed. They have been recommended to request paramedics as"},{"t":1012,"text":"soon as possible. Naloxone, of course, remains an important tool,"},{"t":1016,"text":"but it's only one component of the response. Where metatomidine"},{"t":1020,"text":"is involved individuals may require that extensive monitoring. And our"},{"t":1026,"text":"officers are continuing to respond with CARE and urgency. However,"},{"t":1031,"text":"policing is only one part of that response. And this"},{"t":1033,"text":"sustained change in the drug supply requires a coordinated public"},{"t":1037,"text":"health, medical community and government action. That's why I'm really"},{"t":1042,"text":"pleased to share it with you that we recently launched"},{"t":1045,"text":"the track and trace program, which I'm going to speak"},{"t":1047,"text":"about later in this presentation. But first, I'd like to"},{"t":1052,"text":"talk a bit more about safety, but specifically downtown safety."},{"t":1058,"text":"And, um, I'll start with our foot patrol team. As"},{"t":1062,"text":"you know, our dedicated foot patrol team, thanks to funding,"},{"t":1066,"text":"uh, from the City of Victoria was established on January"},{"t":1069,"text":"13th of this year to provide a consistent visible police"},{"t":1073,"text":"presence and respond directly to issues affecting the downtown core."},{"t":1077,"text":"We now have about six months of operational data. Covering"},{"t":1081,"text":"the period from January 13th to July 18th. During that"},{"t":1087,"text":"time, the foot patrol team responded to 1077 calls for"},{"t":1092,"text":"service. This accounted for approximately four percent of all calls"},{"t":1098,"text":"for VPD, sorry. During that same period. What's really important"},{"t":1104,"text":"is free to understand how that work is being generated."},{"t":1108,"text":"Half of those calls were incidents that the foot patrol"},{"t":1112,"text":"team members encountered while they were out walking. In other"},{"t":1116,"text":"words, they were identifying issues while actively patrolling the community"},{"t":1121,"text":"rather than waiting to be dispatched to a call. The"},{"t":1124,"text":"other half of those calls originated through e - com,"},{"t":1128,"text":"so they would be people calling non - emerge or"},{"t":1130,"text":"911. They would go on to our patrol board and"},{"t":1133,"text":"they were in the area close enough where they could"},{"t":1135,"text":"be dispatched to those calls. These figures really demonstrate that"},{"t":1139,"text":"the foot patrol team is doing more than just providing"},{"t":1142,"text":"a visible presence. It's members are actively identifying concerns, responding"},{"t":1147,"text":"to community needs and addressing issues as they escalate. The"},{"t":1151,"text":"model combines proactive enforcement with responsive community policing while helping"},{"t":1157,"text":"reduce the pressures on other frontline resources, which of course"},{"t":1161,"text":"frees those resources up to attend to other matters. Although"},{"t":1166,"text":"the team accounts for a relatively small portion of Vic"},{"t":1168,"text":"PD's overall staffing, it's managing a meaningful share of calls"},{"t":1173,"text":"for service and addressing incidents that occur in areas where"},{"t":1177,"text":"its members are deployed. Our foot patrol teams also continue"},{"t":1181,"text":"to work very closely with outreach teams, healthcare providers, housing"},{"t":1186,"text":"agencies, and other social service organisations to help divert individuals"},{"t":1192,"text":"away from the criminal justice system whenever it is appropriate"},{"t":1195,"text":"and safe to do so. Enforcement is, of course, only"},{"t":1199,"text":"one tool available to us. And you'll hear me say"},{"t":1201,"text":"this. A number of times today, but it is not"},{"t":1203,"text":"the only one. Our approach remains balanced on accountability where"},{"t":1208,"text":"required, while recognising that many of the complex issues we"},{"t":1213,"text":"encounter, including mental health, addiction, and homelessness, require integrated, long"},{"t":1219,"text":"- term solutions, delivered in partnership with others. Um, moving"},{"t":1224,"text":"on to our bylaw team, we've seen significant growth in"},{"t":1227,"text":"bylaw - related activity. As you know, you funded two"},{"t":1231,"text":"dedicated police officers to work directly with City bylaw officers"},{"t":1235,"text":"whose sole focus is responding to bylaw concerns, public order,"},{"t":1241,"text":"and quality of life issues in the downtown core. Having"},{"t":1244,"text":"dedicated resources means that issues are identified, addressed, and documented"},{"t":1249,"text":"more consistently than in previous years. And our crime reduction"},{"t":1254,"text":"unit, another really important initiative that you agreed to fund"},{"t":1258,"text":"for 2026. I want to talk about the implementation of"},{"t":1263,"text":"this unit. That was approved in the 2026 budget. It"},{"t":1268,"text":"consists of one sergeant and seven constables. And like the"},{"t":1271,"text":"foot patrol team, it's funded entirely by the City of"},{"t":1275,"text":"Victoria as an operational policing resource that was optional. And"},{"t":1280,"text":"as such, these officers will be deployed exclusively within the"},{"t":1285,"text":"City of Victoria and will not provide policing services in"},{"t":1287,"text":"the township of a squamoy malt. The crime reduction unit"},{"t":1291,"text":"will be established to address some of the most persistent"},{"t":1294,"text":"public safety challenges are facing our downtown and surrounding neighbourhoods."},{"t":1299,"text":"It's mandate as you well know is to target prolific"},{"t":1303,"text":"property offenders through intelligence - led investigations and surveillance. And"},{"t":1307,"text":"this will really, um, mesh well with the new provincial"},{"t":1311,"text":"funding that's available through their chronic property offender program. They"},{"t":1316,"text":"intend to disrupt street - level drug trafficking, address chronic"},{"t":1319,"text":"retail theft - affecting local businesses and respond quickly to"},{"t":1322,"text":"emerging crime hotspots. These positions will be staffed in the"},{"t":1326,"text":"coming weeks and operational throughout the fall. Um, on to,"},{"t":1333,"text":"I'd like to talk a little bit about recruitment, uh,"},{"t":1336,"text":"human resources and training. One of our greatest priorities continues"},{"t":1340,"text":"to be ensuring that Vic PPD has the people expertise"},{"t":1344,"text":"and organisational capacity needed to meet the growing demands of"},{"t":1348,"text":"policing in both Victoria and a squimault. Today, our authorized"},{"t":1354,"text":"sworn strength is 284 police officers. We have over 82"},{"t":1359,"text":"civilian positions, 27 special municipal constables. 50 reserve constables in"},{"t":1366,"text":"77 volunteers. I'm really pleased to report that our recruitment"},{"t":1371,"text":"efforts continue to produce strong results. For a number of"},{"t":1376,"text":"years, a challenge for police departments across this country have"},{"t":1379,"text":"been actually getting recruite applicants through the door. I'm thrilled"},{"t":1383,"text":"to report that at Vic PD. We have more applicants"},{"t":1387,"text":"for the department than we have ever had in our"},{"t":1389,"text":"history, which gives us a really rich number of people"},{"t":1394,"text":"and diverse group of people to choose from when we're"},{"t":1396,"text":"going through the recruiting process. In May, we welcomed 11"},{"t":1401,"text":"new recruit constables representing the largest recruit class in Vic"},{"t":1405,"text":"PD's history. Earlier this year, we also introduced a temporary"},{"t":1409,"text":"employee program established through a letter of understanding what the"},{"t":1414,"text":"Victorious City police union, allowing recently retired certified police officers"},{"t":1418,"text":"to return in frontline only roles to fixed term contracts."},{"t":1424,"text":"We're also investing in the long - term future of"},{"t":1427,"text":"policing by launching a refreshed recruiting campaign and continuing to"},{"t":1432,"text":"strengthen our leadership pipeline. Of course, once we have the"},{"t":1438,"text":"positions funded and we recruit the right people, we need"},{"t":1441,"text":"to train them. That's one reasons why securing our very"},{"t":1445,"text":"own South Island police academy was so critical. This is"},{"t":1450,"text":"perhaps one of the largest accomplishments that we achieved this"},{"t":1455,"text":"past year at Vic PD. We successfully applied for and"},{"t":1458,"text":"received clearance from the province earlier this year to stand"},{"t":1461,"text":"up a police academy. And the first class starts September"},{"t":1466,"text":"14th. Vic PD is the host agency. We submitted the"},{"t":1471,"text":"proposal to the province. And we will be training recruits"},{"t":1475,"text":"right out of our headquarters at 850 Caledonia. Our first"},{"t":1479,"text":"class will be 16 Wikipedia recruits. In addition to recruits"},{"t":1485,"text":"from other South Island police agencies. This is such an"},{"t":1489,"text":"important step for policing on the South Island. It's more"},{"t":1493,"text":"cost effective. It provides the opportunity for us to hire"},{"t":1497,"text":"people. We may not have otherwise been able to hire."},{"t":1501,"text":"It provides some equity to our hiring. For example, we"},{"t":1505,"text":"have people who simply could not have left the island"},{"t":1508,"text":"for three months at a time to go to the"},{"t":1510,"text":"JIBC for training. Perhaps they were a single mom. Perhaps"},{"t":1514,"text":"they were someone who was caring for elderly parents. Those"},{"t":1517,"text":"are people who, for whom the door to policing was"},{"t":1521,"text":"closed because of that inability to leave the island for"},{"t":1525,"text":"months at a time. We are now able to take"},{"t":1528,"text":"advantage of offering people who are in that position. The"},{"t":1532,"text":"ability to stay on the island for their recruit training."},{"t":1535,"text":"Go home to their families every night. But there's also"},{"t":1539,"text":"the added benefit of being able to be embedded in"},{"t":1542,"text":"and develop relationships with our community partners right from day"},{"t":1546,"text":"one. We're now well positioned to address years of staffing"},{"t":1552,"text":"challenges we've experienced at Vic PD with the right funding"},{"t":1555,"text":"support, the right hiring, and the right training. Where we"},{"t":1560,"text":"intend to put through the class in September of 16,"},{"t":1563,"text":"another one in January of 16. And then those numbers"},{"t":1566,"text":"will naturally taper off over the next number of years."},{"t":1571,"text":"So I'd like to talk a little bit about operational"},{"t":1574,"text":"excellence and give you an update on the resource allocation"},{"t":1578,"text":"review. Operational Excellence. To me, means continually examining how we"},{"t":1584,"text":"work and ensuring our resources are aligned with the changing"},{"t":1588,"text":"needs of our organisation and the communities we serve. One"},{"t":1592,"text":"of our key efficiency initiatives is the resource allocation review,"},{"t":1598,"text":"a comprehensive organisation - wide assessment of how Vic PD"},{"t":1603,"text":"deploys its people and resources. Through this review, we're taking"},{"t":1608,"text":"a deep dive into deployment levels, calls for service, data,"},{"t":1613,"text":"civilian positions, and organisational gaps where processes could be streamlined"},{"t":1618,"text":"or resourced. Use resources used more effectively. You've heard me"},{"t":1623,"text":"talk about wanting to make sure we have the right"},{"t":1626,"text":"police officers in the right place at the right time."},{"t":1629,"text":"This work will help us identify opportunities to improve service"},{"t":1634,"text":"delivery, strengthen operational capacity, and ensure the right resources are"},{"t":1639,"text":"assigned to the right functions. It will also allow me"},{"t":1643,"text":"to come to you during budget time with data -"},{"t":1648,"text":"driven information that will support any request Vic PD is"},{"t":1652,"text":"making moving forward. This review encompasses the entire organisation and"},{"t":1658,"text":"is expected to be completed in September. It's findings will"},{"t":1662,"text":"help guide evidence - based decisions about VicPD staffing and"},{"t":1666,"text":"future resource needs. My commitment to Council was to take"},{"t":1670,"text":"a balanced and responsible approach to our budget request year"},{"t":1674,"text":"over year, while developing a long - term funding strategy"},{"t":1677,"text":"that provides greater predictability for council, our organisation, and the"},{"t":1683,"text":"community's reserve. The resource allocation review is fundamental to that"},{"t":1688,"text":"commitment. It will provide the information we need to identify"},{"t":1693,"text":"efficiencies, understand organisational gaps, and establish a sustainable, multi -"},{"t":1699,"text":"year plan for VicPD staffing and resource requirements. Rather than"},{"t":1703,"text":"addressing pressures through significant one - time requests, our goal"},{"t":1707,"text":"is to present counsel with a clear and measured path"},{"t":1711,"text":"forward, one that balances operational needs with fiscal responsibility. Another"},{"t":1718,"text":"project that we are incredibly proud of that launched this"},{"t":1721,"text":"year is track and trace. And VicPD is the lead"},{"t":1726,"text":"police agency for the province with respect to this. Earlier"},{"t":1730,"text":"this year, the Ministry of Public Safety and Solister General"},{"t":1733,"text":"launched this program with Vic PDE, as I said, serving"},{"t":1737,"text":"as the lead agency. Through this initiative, drug samples are"},{"t":1741,"text":"sent to a specialized laboratory at the University of British"},{"t":1744,"text":"Columbia for detailed analysis that will provide information almost in"},{"t":1749,"text":"real time via a dashboard that will be available to"},{"t":1753,"text":"police across the province. It's testing helps us identify emerging"},{"t":1758,"text":"contaminants, understand what substances are present, and monitor how the"},{"t":1763,"text":"illicit drug supply is changing over time. Metatomadine demonstrates why"},{"t":1768,"text":"this capability is so important. If track and trace had"},{"t":1773,"text":"been operating at that time, regular local testing may have"},{"t":1777,"text":"allowed us to identify metatomidines presence and growing prevalence in"},{"t":1782,"text":"victorious sooner. Earlier identification could have supported faster warnings to"},{"t":1787,"text":"police, paramedics, healthcare providers, and community partners. Allowing frontline responders"},{"t":1793,"text":"to adapt their practices and prepare for changing overdose presentations."},{"t":1799,"text":"That is precisely the gap this program is designed to"},{"t":1803,"text":"address. Moving us from reacting to changes in the drug"},{"t":1807,"text":"supply to identifying and responding to them earlier. Over time,"},{"t":1812,"text":"the intelligence generated may also help investigators identify patterns, establish"},{"t":1818,"text":"connections between samples, and better target individuals and criminal networks"},{"t":1823,"text":"responsible for producing and distributing toxic drugs. For example, we"},{"t":1828,"text":"will be able to see if the drugs that we're"},{"t":1830,"text":"seizing on the streets of Victoria are chemically identical to"},{"t":1834,"text":"those that are showing up in the downtown East Side"},{"t":1836,"text":"of Vancouver, or in Prince George, or in Kamloops. Eventually,"},{"t":1841,"text":"hopefully across the country. It's almost like watching the advent"},{"t":1846,"text":"of DNA develop. We've been working very closely with our"},{"t":1850,"text":"partners across the country with crown council. And of course,"},{"t":1855,"text":"on the health side of the house to fully utilise"},{"t":1859,"text":"the results of the track and trace project on a"},{"t":1862,"text":"number of different fronts. TRAC and trace really brings public"},{"t":1866,"text":"safety and health together. And you may have seen our"},{"t":1870,"text":"media announcement out at UBC earlier in the year, with"},{"t":1873,"text":"both the Minister of Health and the Minister of Public"},{"t":1876,"text":"Safety. As the toxic drug supply continues to evolve, our"},{"t":1881,"text":"response must evolve with it. And this program is going"},{"t":1884,"text":"to give us the evidence needed to respond earlier, more"},{"t":1888,"text":"strategically, and more effectively. I'd now like to talk about"},{"t":1893,"text":"public trust. One of the most important initiatives we undertook"},{"t":1897,"text":"this year was one of the largest public engagement efforts"},{"t":1901,"text":"Vic PPD has completed in recent years. As we developed"},{"t":1906,"text":"a new strategic plan that we'll be released in the"},{"t":1907,"text":"coming months and began planning for the 2027 budget, we"},{"t":1912,"text":"wanted to ensure our priorities were informed not only by"},{"t":1916,"text":"operational data, but by the voices of the people we"},{"t":1919,"text":"serve every day. To accomplish this, we engaged our communities,"},{"t":1924,"text":"the business sector, and our own employees through a comprehensive"},{"t":1928,"text":"consultation process. Perhaps the most encouraging aspect of this engagement"},{"t":1933,"text":"was that the themes were remarkably consistent, regardless of who"},{"t":1937,"text":"we spoke to. Whether it was residents, businesses or our"},{"t":1941,"text":"own employees for priorities emerged. First, visitability matters. People want"},{"t":1948,"text":"to see officers in their neighbourhoods, downtown, and in commercial"},{"t":1951,"text":"areas. Second, demand is increasing. Everyone recognises that policing has"},{"t":1958,"text":"become more complex, particularly around mental health, substance use, repeat"},{"t":1962,"text":"offending, property crime and street disorder. Third, community safety requires"},{"t":1968,"text":"partnership. There's widespread recognition that police cannot solve these issues"},{"t":1973,"text":"alone. Finally, communication builds trust. Residents and businesses want to"},{"t":1978,"text":"better understand what we're doing, why we're doing it, and"},{"t":1982,"text":"the outcomes were achieving. This year, Vic PD implemented a"},{"t":1986,"text":"new communication strategy focused on four QUE principles. Being more"},{"t":1991,"text":"proactive in communicating with our communities, providing timely, transparent and"},{"t":1996,"text":"accurate information. Educating the public about policing public safety and"},{"t":2001,"text":"crime prevention, and humanizing policing by telling the stories of"},{"t":2005,"text":"the dedicated people who serve our communities every day. This"},{"t":2010,"text":"shift reflects our commitment to building public trusts through transparency,"},{"t":2014,"text":"accessibility, and meaningful engagement. The results today have been significant."},{"t":2021,"text":"A few notable numbers. Our Vic PPD Facebook page has"},{"t":2024,"text":"generated 11. 3 million views. This year so far alone."},{"t":2032,"text":"Our social media content has generated more than 5. 4"},{"t":2037,"text":"million views this year. Across Victoria Facebook, a squamot Facebook"},{"t":2042,"text":"and Instagram platforms. We've welcomed over 8, 000 new followers"},{"t":2046,"text":"since the beginning of the year. These results demonstrate that"},{"t":2050,"text":"when we communicate proactively share timely information and engage our"},{"t":2054,"text":"communities, people engage, strong communities are more than simply sharing"},{"t":2059,"text":"information. They are a very, very important part of building"},{"t":2062,"text":"trust. They're important to improving transparency and connecting VicPD to"},{"t":2068,"text":"the community's reserve. I think I'll leave it at that"},{"t":2072,"text":"for now, because I know I'm well over half an"},{"t":2074,"text":"hour, and I'm more than happy to answer any questions"},{"t":2077,"text":"you may have. Thank you very much, Chief. Very informative."},{"t":2083,"text":"Uh, there are no recommendations here, so this is an"},{"t":2084,"text":"opportunity for council to ask questions and make any comments"},{"t":2087,"text":"say like. We would do function under our usual time"},{"t":2090,"text":"limits. So we'll look to who'd like to start the"},{"t":2093,"text":"conversation. Sorry, thanks, Anthony Chair, to the TM. Thank you"},{"t":2101,"text":"for being here, and welcome to the team, Deputy Chief"},{"t":2103,"text":"Hiltz. Welcome to Victoria and to the service. I have"},{"t":2107,"text":"a few questions. Do eventually want to ask a question"},{"t":2111,"text":"about SD61 and what happened with the trustees, but maybe"},{"t":2115,"text":"come back to that in a minute. I want to"},{"t":2116,"text":"start by talking about short - term rentals of all"},{"t":2119,"text":"things. And, um, and some conversations I've been having with"},{"t":2124,"text":"the group called DOTA, DCOTA, which I think stands for"},{"t":2128,"text":"the downtown Condo owners and tenants association, something like that."},{"t":2132,"text":"In any case, it's the folks who live in condos"},{"t":2135,"text":"downtown. And they have been dealing with pretty serious criminality"},{"t":2140,"text":"in SDRs. And in fact, they sent me an image"},{"t":2143,"text":"that I was going to put up on the screen."},{"t":2145,"text":"If we could do that. I think all of us"},{"t":2149,"text":"were aware that there's noncompliance going on in short -"},{"t":2152,"text":"term rentals. And obviously a lot of that falls to"},{"t":2154,"text":"us under bylaw services. But I was unaware until I"},{"t":2158,"text":"met with these folks recently that there's pretty serious human"},{"t":2161,"text":"and sex trafficking and other crime rackets going on in"},{"t":2166,"text":"STRs. So this is an image that was shared with"},{"t":2170,"text":"me and that I had consent to share. Um, essentially"},{"t":2174,"text":"people have been renting STRs and using them for traffic."},{"t":2180,"text":"And this message was delivered to every single person who"},{"t":2182,"text":"lived in the condo, which is like 200 people. They"},{"t":2185,"text":"all got a message under their door. Uh, inviting them"},{"t":2187,"text":"to be involved in trafficking. And, uh, the folks who"},{"t":2190,"text":"live in that building were just horrified. And so I've"},{"t":2192,"text":"been having meetings with them. They did report this to"},{"t":2195,"text":"police. So I just wanted to get a sense. Do"},{"t":2198,"text":"you know what may have come of this or similar"},{"t":2200,"text":"issues? Is this on your radar. What can be done"},{"t":2203,"text":"in terms of enforcement to get on top of this"},{"t":2205,"text":"issue and make sure that downtown resonance are feeling safe"},{"t":2208,"text":"in their own buildings? Chief. Thank you for that. I'm"},{"t":2213,"text":"not, uh, familiar with this particular investigation, which I would"},{"t":2216,"text":"be unlikely to comment on in any event. However, what"},{"t":2219,"text":"I can tell you is that human trafficking is absolutely"},{"t":2223,"text":"at the top of our radar of that Vic PD."},{"t":2227,"text":"It is something that I have been engaged in for"},{"t":2229,"text":"many years in terms of advocacy around, um, judicial reform."},{"t":2235,"text":"Um, but also, um, to broaden awareness about the, um,"},{"t":2242,"text":"devastating impact of human trafficking. These are very, very difficult"},{"t":2246,"text":"investigations, um, for a whole host of reasons. Um, we"},{"t":2252,"text":"work very closely with crown council when we are investigating"},{"t":2255,"text":"these matters. Um, because there are just so many challenges"},{"t":2259,"text":"around, um, around investigating them and ensuring that we have"},{"t":2264,"text":"enough evidence to take two crown, um, sure charge approval."},{"t":2271,"text":"So absolutely it's at the top of our radar, um,"},{"t":2274,"text":"it's something that we have significant concerns of. Of course,"},{"t":2277,"text":"the advent of events like FIFA, um, increase our concern"},{"t":2282,"text":"for human trafficking, um, anytime we have any major events,"},{"t":2287,"text":"um, that impacts the numbers of people we believe are"},{"t":2291,"text":"engaged in human trafficking. Um, we have, uh, in our"},{"t":2295,"text":"major crime unit, we have an emperor of people who"},{"t":2298,"text":"I would consider, um, uh, experts, but also, in our"},{"t":2303,"text":"sex crimes unit, um, with respect to these types of"},{"t":2306,"text":"offences. We also have our integrated ice unit that touches"},{"t":2312,"text":"on these offences as well. Because in my experience, um,"},{"t":2316,"text":"the thread that we typically pull in the beginning is"},{"t":2319,"text":"often online. And that's sort of where our investigations often"},{"t":2324,"text":"start. Um, so we will continue to do everything we"},{"t":2327,"text":"can to investigate matters of human trafficking. And I will"},{"t":2331,"text":"certainly follow up on this particular investigation, um, to see"},{"t":2335,"text":"what the status of it is at this time. That'd"},{"t":2339,"text":"be great. And I think it might be good for"},{"t":2341,"text":"the CRO to connect with this, with this decoder group."},{"t":2345,"text":"Absolutely. They represent five buildings. It's kind of some of"},{"t":2348,"text":"the main downtown condo buildings in these issues are happening"},{"t":2350,"text":"in all those buildings. Moving on to second question, we"},{"t":2354,"text":"can take this down. Uh, is about noise cameras. And"},{"t":2357,"text":"there was a fellow who came in to speak to"},{"t":2360,"text":"us at an opportunity for public comment. It's now been"},{"t":2362,"text":"a couple of months ago. When we do evening council."},{"t":2366,"text":"And, uh, talked about the noise around his home, especially"},{"t":2371,"text":"late at night, oftentimes motorcycles, but not always an inquired"},{"t":2375,"text":"with us about what more can be done around noise"},{"t":2379,"text":"enforcement. And what are the barriers or opportunities around potentially"},{"t":2383,"text":"noise enforcement cameras? How does that work? Does that require"},{"t":2386,"text":"provincial authority? Anything you can tell us about noise enforcement"},{"t":2389,"text":"and noise enforcement cameras. Thank you. So, uh, through the"},{"t":2394,"text":"chair, I cannot, um, uh, speak intelligently with respect to"},{"t":2400,"text":"noise enforcement cameras because I am not overly familiar with"},{"t":2403,"text":"them to be frank. Um, however, that's something we can"},{"t":2407,"text":"certainly take away and look at unless one of the"},{"t":2409,"text":"deputies has more insight into those. Um, so I apologise,"},{"t":2414,"text":"but, uh, as I say, I can certainly go away"},{"t":2415,"text":"and do some research on that. Um, with respect to"},{"t":2418,"text":"noise complaints, we respond to noise complaints as, uh, come"},{"t":2422,"text":"in to through ecom. Um, there's also a bylaw component,"},{"t":2426,"text":"uh, with respect to noise complaints. I don't have the"},{"t":2429,"text":"data in front of me in terms of whether or"},{"t":2431,"text":"not those types of complaints have increased in 2026, but"},{"t":2434,"text":"we can certainly take a look at that. But what"},{"t":2436,"text":"I can tell you is that, uh, in my experience"},{"t":2440,"text":"a typical noise complaint, uh, would be, uh, our members"},{"t":2445,"text":"attend, it is definitely going to be a low priority"},{"t":2448,"text":"call in terms of, um, you know, we have priority"},{"t":2451,"text":"one calls, which are somebody is being injured or property"},{"t":2454,"text":"is being damaged immediate all the way down to priority"},{"t":2457,"text":"four calls. And a noise complaint, unless they're, we're extenuating"},{"t":2461,"text":"circumstances would typically be a priority for call. And we"},{"t":2465,"text":"know that our members are typically out on the road"},{"t":2467,"text":"going from call to call to call. So, um, unfortunately,"},{"t":2471,"text":"I think that, um, people may experience a time delay,"},{"t":2475,"text":"uh, if we are responding to a noise complained. However,"},{"t":2478,"text":"what that would look like is our members typically would"},{"t":2481,"text":"respond investigate the source of the noise and then simply"},{"t":2485,"text":"speak to the person who's generating the noise and ask"},{"t":2488,"text":"them to, uh, to tone that down. They do have"},{"t":2490,"text":"the option of writing a bylaw ticket in a case"},{"t":2493,"text":"like that, depending on the circumstances. Um, but I could"},{"t":2497,"text":"certainly look into the data to see if we've had"},{"t":2499,"text":"an increase in those types of calls. Thanks. And I"},{"t":2502,"text":"think maybe it's even beyond the data. I think it's,"},{"t":2504,"text":"it's more of a question about jurisdiction or what kind"},{"t":2506,"text":"of provincial approvals might be needed for, for some kind"},{"t":2509,"text":"of a pilot. I mean, these things have been used"},{"t":2510,"text":"in other cities. I mean, Paris very famously now has"},{"t":2513,"text":"a lot of them. And it's apparently had a really"},{"t":2514,"text":"good impact. I mean, obviously the big difference between a"},{"t":2518,"text":"noise complaint from say Phillips or Riftlandia where it's a"},{"t":2521,"text":"stationary event. You can go down with the decimal machine"},{"t":2523,"text":"versus someone ripping by your house in a motorcycle and"},{"t":2526,"text":"they're gone. I mean, I think the average person's not"},{"t":2528,"text":"going to phone police about that because it's, it's five"},{"t":2530,"text":"seconds, but it wakes them up at one in the"},{"t":2532,"text":"morning, whatever it is. So if the little bit of"},{"t":2534,"text":"research that could be done on that, just that would"},{"t":2536,"text":"be great. Thank you. Um, last one is the SD61"},{"t":2540,"text":"issue. So I've been out talking to residents and this"},{"t":2545,"text":"issue has come up several times. And so I'm in"},{"t":2549,"text":"effect asking it on behalf of the public. Noting first"},{"t":2553,"text":"of all that when that whole drama unfolded, you were"},{"t":2556,"text":"not the chief at the time. So I'm aware that"},{"t":2559,"text":"you inherited a mess, which we're all familiar with inheriting"},{"t":2562,"text":"messes. That's just how it goes in public service. Um,"},{"t":2565,"text":"there's certainly a perception on the part of the public"},{"t":2568,"text":"that there was a kind of pressure campaign that occurred."},{"t":2571,"text":"The president of the GVTA referred to it as politicking."},{"t":2574,"text":"Um, certainly not going to read out these texts because"},{"t":2577,"text":"I think we can all agree that it was an"},{"t":2578,"text":"embarrassing episode for all of us, including the city. But"},{"t":2582,"text":"two part question to you, which is what's your impression"},{"t":2588,"text":"of what happened? What's your interpretation of what happened and"},{"t":2591,"text":"what went wrong. And second of all, and moving forward,"},{"t":2595,"text":"what can be done to ensure that this kind of"},{"t":2596,"text":"politicking or whatever you want to call it doesn't occur"},{"t":2600,"text":"in the future. Irrespective of whatever wedge issue happens to"},{"t":2603,"text":"be the issue of the day. How can we ensure"},{"t":2605,"text":"that this doesn't happen again? Thank you. Through the chair,"},{"t":2609,"text":"I have to, um, uh, uh, just say that the"},{"t":2612,"text":"matter with respect to the text messages has been referred"},{"t":2616,"text":"to the office of the police complaint commissioner and is"},{"t":2619,"text":"currently under investigation. So I'm unable to comment on that."},{"t":2623,"text":"And I would be reticent to provide my opinion with"},{"t":2625,"text":"respect to what happened at a time that I was"},{"t":2628,"text":"not here, particularly with that investigation underway. What I can"},{"t":2632,"text":"say is that, um, I fully and entirely support the"},{"t":2636,"text":"notion of school liaison officers being in our schools. Um,"},{"t":2640,"text":"I had an extensive amount of experience with this when"},{"t":2644,"text":"I was at the Bank of Replice Department when our"},{"t":2647,"text":"school lead is on program, uh, was discontinued by the"},{"t":2649,"text":"school board. I participated in significant advocacy around, um, uh,"},{"t":2656,"text":"working to keep them in schools prior to that decision"},{"t":2658,"text":"was made. And then when the school board made the"},{"t":2662,"text":"decision to bring schoolies and officers back into schools, I"},{"t":2668,"text":"did a lot of work around reimagining what that program"},{"t":2672,"text":"would look like to ensure that we addressed a number"},{"t":2675,"text":"of the concerns that were raised. When the school is,"},{"t":2679,"text":"and officers were removed from schools in the first place."},{"t":2683,"text":"Because I think to not do so would have been"},{"t":2686,"text":"short sighted in that, um, we want to make sure"},{"t":2691,"text":"that we have a long - term sustainable program. And,"},{"t":2696,"text":"um, not one that is being brought in and cut"},{"t":2699,"text":"and brought in and cut. Each time the change on"},{"t":2704,"text":"the school board. So, um, we went to great efforts"},{"t":2707,"text":"in Vancouver to address the issues that were and the"},{"t":2711,"text":"concerns that were raised before the program was cut. So"},{"t":2715,"text":"for example, um, you know, we changed the uniforms of"},{"t":2719,"text":"the members, uh, we changed the footprint of their force"},{"t":2723,"text":"options, um, they went into unmarked vehicles. We spent a"},{"t":2728,"text":"lot of time consulting with a number of different partners"},{"t":2731,"text":"to try and reimagine what that program would look like."},{"t":2734,"text":"And so I guess the reason I explained that is"},{"t":2737,"text":"because my philosophy on this is that if there's widespread"},{"t":2741,"text":"concern about, uh, particular program that police are engaged in,"},{"t":2746,"text":"we want to listen to those concerns and adjust where"},{"t":2750,"text":"it's appropriate and necessary. And, um, I don't know enough"},{"t":2754,"text":"about the history here with respect to our schoolies on"},{"t":2757,"text":"officers, but what I can tell you is the program"},{"t":2759,"text":"that is in place now is really exceptional. And we"},{"t":2763,"text":"have had outstanding feedback from, um, the schools, from community,"},{"t":2769,"text":"from parents, from students, um, I will, uh, I unequivocally"},{"t":2776,"text":"support them remaining in schools. But unfortunately, I'm not in"},{"t":2781,"text":"a position to comment extensively with respect to what happened"},{"t":2784,"text":"before I landed here. And certainly not able to comment"},{"t":2790,"text":"with respect to the recent matter because of it being"},{"t":2793,"text":"under investigation with the OPCC. I think that's the track."},{"t":2797,"text":"I respect and accept that you can't comment on what"},{"t":2799,"text":"happened in the past, but I do think it's fair"},{"t":2802,"text":"to ask the question of what the force would do"},{"t":2804,"text":"in the future. I mean, I was hoping to actually"},{"t":2806,"text":"not have a conversation on PLOs because I think there"},{"t":2810,"text":"is a conversation we had on that topic. But today"},{"t":2812,"text":"I'm interested in what happened procedurally. So my question is,"},{"t":2816,"text":"what can be done in the future to ensure that"},{"t":2818,"text":"this, these sorts of whatever you want to call it,"},{"t":2821,"text":"a pressure campaign, politicking doesn't happen again, whether it's around"},{"t":2824,"text":"PLOs or whatever the wedge issue of the day happens"},{"t":2826,"text":"to be, chief. To the chair, I think you're making"},{"t":2830,"text":"the assumption that I do believe there was a pressure"},{"t":2833,"text":"campaign or something nefarious that went on. And, um, that"},{"t":2837,"text":"is not my position at this time based on what"},{"t":2840,"text":"I know, which is limited because I was not here."},{"t":2843,"text":"So, um, you know, it's impossible for me to comment,"},{"t":2847,"text":"to answer your question. Um, given that. Okay. All right."},{"t":2852,"text":"I'll leave it there then. All right. Uh, Councillor Thompson,"},{"t":2854,"text":"you're up next followed by Councillor Loughton and Councillor Hammond."},{"t":2857,"text":"Councillor Thompson. Thanks Mayor. Uh, thanks Chief for being with"},{"t":2864,"text":"us today and for all the information of a number"},{"t":2868,"text":"of different questions, um, largely about data. First one, I"},{"t":2873,"text":"think you mentioned at the beginning, uh, responses to calls"},{"t":2877,"text":"for service was up eight percent or was it calls"},{"t":2879,"text":"for service that's up eight percent. I wasn't clear through"},{"t":2883,"text":"the chair that calls for service. We're up 8. 7"},{"t":2888,"text":"percent twenty five for, um, this period of the year."},{"t":2897,"text":"As far as we are into 2026. So January to"},{"t":2901,"text":"July. Councillor. Okay. Thanks. Thanks for the clarification there. Um,"},{"t":2906,"text":"and then, uh, do you, so that's calls for service."},{"t":2910,"text":"Do you also track responses to calls for service. Chief."},{"t":2916,"text":"Through the chair. So calls for service. Get a response."},{"t":2922,"text":"Oh, okay. All of them. Okay. Uh, let's see. Members"},{"t":2927,"text":"of the public. Okay. Yeah. Um, I've spoken with a"},{"t":2931,"text":"number of members of the public who really want to"},{"t":2934,"text":"know what all is the data that Vic PD is"},{"t":2939,"text":"collecting. And I know that you spoke to this a"},{"t":2942,"text":"little bit, um, maybe about a third of the way"},{"t":2945,"text":"through, uh, but they, they actually want, you know, numbers"},{"t":2949,"text":"metrics, uh, trends not only on enforcement, but also on"},{"t":2954,"text":"the incidence, uh, if possible, um, and, and they have"},{"t":2959,"text":"brought up things like, uh, violent crimes, open drug use,"},{"t":2964,"text":"uh, that sort of thing. So, um, I know that"},{"t":2966,"text":"you may not have every single number, uh, with you"},{"t":2969,"text":"today, uh, but are you able to indicate, um, whether"},{"t":2974,"text":"there is a place, uh, on the website that is"},{"t":2980,"text":"comprehensive about the data you collect. I know that there"},{"t":2983,"text":"is a place where you've got some data, but is"},{"t":2986,"text":"that the total sum of the data that the police"},{"t":2989,"text":"have on that website. Chief. Thank you through the chair."},{"t":2996,"text":"So we do have a community dashboard on our website."},{"t":2999,"text":"We collect all sorts of statistical information at Vic PD."},{"t":3005,"text":"And one of the things that you will see with"},{"t":3007,"text":"the resource allocation review is an overview of a lot"},{"t":3012,"text":"of that statistical information. In fact, howard Tran has gathered"},{"t":3016,"text":"statistical information that I don't believe has ever been collated"},{"t":3021,"text":"at Vic PD. And I'm really looking forward to presenting"},{"t":3024,"text":"that, uh, when it's complete, it is not finished at"},{"t":3028,"text":"this time, but, um, I've had a chance, of course,"},{"t":3031,"text":"to get updates as he's gone. And the, really, um,"},{"t":3035,"text":"interesting information in there around not just calls for service,"},{"t":3038,"text":"but response times, um, the type of calls, the priority"},{"t":3043,"text":"of calls, um, he is really done a lot of"},{"t":3047,"text":"data analysis around pieces of information that I don't believe"},{"t":3052,"text":"have been analysed in the past at Vic PD. So"},{"t":3054,"text":"I'm really looking forward to presenting that to Council when"},{"t":3058,"text":"it's finished. In terms of our community dashboard, we are"},{"t":3063,"text":"in the process of, uh, revamping our entire website for"},{"t":3068,"text":"VIC PD. And we've already made some changes. But one"},{"t":3072,"text":"of the things on my list to address is indeed"},{"t":3075,"text":"that community dashboard. In fact, I was looking at it"},{"t":3078,"text":"last night. And there is quite a lot of room"},{"t":3080,"text":"for improvement. Um, we have been going at lightning speed"},{"t":3084,"text":"at VECPD in the last 10 months. And have had"},{"t":3087,"text":"a lot of things on the laundry list. Um, this"},{"t":3089,"text":"is one of them. And, uh, we, um, revamping those,"},{"t":3095,"text":"uh, those dashboards in the coming months. Um, it's just"},{"t":3099,"text":"going to take a bit more time. What I can"},{"t":3102,"text":"tell you is year over year for 2025 to 2026."},{"t":3106,"text":"So January to July. We had, uh, a decrease in"},{"t":3110,"text":"our property related offences of 2. 4 percent. We had,"},{"t":3116,"text":"as I mentioned earlier, our traffic offences went up 3."},{"t":3119,"text":"5 percent crimes reduced by 5. 1 percent. In total,"},{"t":3127,"text":"um, when you looked at all of our crime categories,"},{"t":3131,"text":"we had an increase of overall crime categories of 8."},{"t":3135,"text":"7 percent. But most of that is driven by an"},{"t":3140,"text":"increase in calls related to social disorder. Uh, which were"},{"t":3144,"text":"up significantly year over year. And those are matters that"},{"t":3148,"text":"you actually referred to Councillor Thompson, like street disorder matters,"},{"t":3154,"text":"open drug use, um, people who are, um, in mental"},{"t":3158,"text":"health crisis. These are the incidents that often have nothing"},{"t":3163,"text":"to do with criminality. They're not about arresting someone. Um,"},{"t":3167,"text":"they're about those, uh, dealing with those social disorder challenges"},{"t":3172,"text":"that, um, we see in our community. And, um, those,"},{"t":3177,"text":"those have increased dramatically. Now for context, and this is"},{"t":3181,"text":"one of the reasons why I talked about our foot"},{"t":3183,"text":"patrol team, they had, there were responsible for, for four"},{"t":3187,"text":"percent of that increase. And half of those calls were"},{"t":3191,"text":"generated by themselves walking on our streets and coming across"},{"t":3197,"text":"incidents that they dealt with, um, immediately. So they weren't"},{"t":3201,"text":"actually calls for service that came through ecom. So on"},{"t":3204,"text":"one hand, that results in an increase in calls for"},{"t":3207,"text":"service because they generate a call when they come across"},{"t":3210,"text":"something. But on the other hand, it's a really good"},{"t":3213,"text":"indicator of the work that they're doing and the impact"},{"t":3216,"text":"that they're having. Another thing too, that I believe is"},{"t":3220,"text":"happening here in Victoria is that businesses are starting to"},{"t":3223,"text":"call us again more frequently. So we have been spreading"},{"t":3227,"text":"the word. I have had countless meetings with business organisations,"},{"t":3232,"text":"individual business owners, the chamber, um, the, um, the VIA"},{"t":3239,"text":"in groups and individuals. And one of the things I"},{"t":3241,"text":"had been telling them is please call, please call when"},{"t":3245,"text":"you have the front window of your business smashed out,"},{"t":3248,"text":"for example. And many, many of them have told me"},{"t":3250,"text":"that they had indeed stopped calling. So that will partly"},{"t":3254,"text":"also be responsible for that increase. Um, however, it's also"},{"t":3258,"text":"a demonstration of the work that we have out of"},{"t":3260,"text":"us. Councillor. Okay. Thanks for that. Um, so it sounds"},{"t":3265,"text":"like the more data coming on the dashboard and more"},{"t":3268,"text":"data coming from the work that Howard Tran is doing."},{"t":3271,"text":"I will pass that along. Um, uh, wanted to ask"},{"t":3274,"text":"about hotspots. So, uh, there are, you know, a number"},{"t":3278,"text":"of hotspots in the city, uh, there's the Pandora 900"},{"t":3282,"text":"block. There's Johnson Street 800 block, et cetera. I don't"},{"t":3286,"text":"want to try to address all of those today. I"},{"t":3288,"text":"just wanted to ask about some of the changes in"},{"t":3291,"text":"the hot spots. So the Johnson Street 800 block, I"},{"t":3296,"text":"am perceiving less, but I could be wrong. Uh, Pandora"},{"t":3301,"text":"800 and 1, 000 blocks. I'm perceiving more. This is"},{"t":3304,"text":"what I'm hearing. Um, are those accurate and are there"},{"t":3308,"text":"other changes to hotspots that, um, your members are noting."},{"t":3313,"text":"Chief. Through the chair, thank you for that question. So"},{"t":3317,"text":"I actually do have the 2025 numbers for both a"},{"t":3321,"text":"900 block of Pandora and the 800 block of Johnson."},{"t":3325,"text":"Um, unfortunately, because it can be a bit tricky pulling"},{"t":3329,"text":"this data only because, um, you have to define the"},{"t":3332,"text":"area very carefully. And so I don't have the 2026"},{"t":3336,"text":"data. But for 2025, the 900 block of Pandora accounted"},{"t":3342,"text":"for 1, 671 calls for service. The 800 block of"},{"t":3346,"text":"Johnson accounted for 1, 419. That total of 3, 090"},{"t":3353,"text":"accounted for about almost 6 percent of all calls for"},{"t":3357,"text":"service despite being a tiny, tiny percentage of the geographical"},{"t":3361,"text":"area Victoria. This is not news to anyone here. But"},{"t":3365,"text":"what I will endeavour to do is go back. And"},{"t":3368,"text":"although I could obviously only do up, uh, you know,"},{"t":3370,"text":"the first six months of 2026, but to compare those"},{"t":3373,"text":"numbers because I can tell you that anecdotally, our members"},{"t":3378,"text":"are reporting back that they are seeing improvements in both"},{"t":3381,"text":"of those areas. Um, that they're seeing less tense, less"},{"t":3385,"text":"street disorder. There is still a lot of work to"},{"t":3387,"text":"be done. There is no question. But absolutely, uh, I'm"},{"t":3391,"text":"hearing from all different facets of not only the organisation,"},{"t":3394,"text":"but from community as well, that, um, they're incremental improvements,"},{"t":3400,"text":"um, and like I say, we still have a lot"},{"t":3402,"text":"of work to do. I think getting our crime reduction"},{"t":3404,"text":"unit out on the streets and deployed is going to"},{"t":3409,"text":"be very helpful. But we have seen, um, an improvement"},{"t":3413,"text":"as a result of having those foot patrol units out"},{"t":3416,"text":"on the ground. And, uh, I'm happy to gather that"},{"t":3419,"text":"data for 2026, Councillor and get that back to you,"},{"t":3424,"text":"um, in short order. Because I would be very, very"},{"t":3426,"text":"surprised. We'll have to extrapolate the data, obviously, for the"},{"t":3429,"text":"balance of the year. Um, which could be problematic if"},{"t":3432,"text":"we are seeing those, those improvements. It will be literally"},{"t":3435,"text":"a month over month analysis. But, um, we are seeing"},{"t":3439,"text":"improvements, um, it's going to take time and it continued"},{"t":3443,"text":"sustained effort. Not obviously just by police, but by all"},{"t":3448,"text":"of our partners, um, but I'm hearing anecdotally that there"},{"t":3453,"text":"have been visible improvements. Okay. Thanks very much for that."},{"t":3460,"text":"Um, and I'm going to ask a question. I think"},{"t":3461,"text":"I know the answer to. And I'm sure you do,"},{"t":3465,"text":"uh, when, when we're dealing with calls for service, that"},{"t":3468,"text":"is probably a reflection of not only what's happening on"},{"t":3472,"text":"the street, but also the number of people who are"},{"t":3474,"text":"calling and you averted to that when you, when you"},{"t":3477,"text":"said more people are calling who didn't used to call"},{"t":3479,"text":"in. Is there any data available or even possible on"},{"t":3486,"text":"what's actually happening on the streets as opposed to what's"},{"t":3490,"text":"being called in. In addition to the sort of anecdotal"},{"t":3494,"text":"member impression. To the chair, that's a great question. And"},{"t":3499,"text":"one, I would love to know the answer to. Um,"},{"t":3502,"text":"I would also love to know, uh, I'd love to"},{"t":3504,"text":"see the data around, um, you know, how many people"},{"t":3508,"text":"were not calling when they ought to have and how"},{"t":3510,"text":"many people are now calling when they ought to. However,"},{"t":3513,"text":"that's just, as you know, a very, very difficult, um,"},{"t":3517,"text":"estimate. It's a difficult, difficult information to gather and estimates"},{"t":3522,"text":"are sort of the very best you're going to get."},{"t":3524,"text":"And I'm not sure how reliable they are. So that's"},{"t":3528,"text":"a really difficult question to answer other than anecdotally. And"},{"t":3532,"text":"as I say, our members and, you know, I hear"},{"t":3535,"text":"from the public every single week. Our members are seeing"},{"t":3539,"text":"improvements. They are, um, they are, uh, I guess slow,"},{"t":3546,"text":"I guess it depends on what it's all relative. But"},{"t":3550,"text":"there have been incremental improvements month over month, um, over"},{"t":3553,"text":"the last number of months that we are very, very"},{"t":3555,"text":"encouraged by, um, I just don't want to, I can't"},{"t":3558,"text":"underscore how we really can't take our foot off the"},{"t":3561,"text":"gas and, and how much more work there is to"},{"t":3563,"text":"do. But I think we should always also celebrate the"},{"t":3567,"text":"fact that we are seeing, um, some improvements. Councillor. Okay."},{"t":3572,"text":"Thanks very much for that. Um, uh, you'll be hearing"},{"t":3577,"text":"from a at least one member of the public who"},{"t":3580,"text":"emailed me during your comments that they're going to want"},{"t":3583,"text":"more data. So, um, I'll, I'll leave that there for"},{"t":3587,"text":"that conversation to happen. Thanks very much. Thank you. Thank"},{"t":3591,"text":"you very much. Council Loughton, you're up next. Good morning"},{"t":3595,"text":"everyone. And through you mayor. Um, I also want to"},{"t":3599,"text":"welcome Deputy Chief Hiltz to Victoria. It's great to have"},{"t":3604,"text":"you here. And I want to thank Chief Wilson for"},{"t":3606,"text":"the presentation. And hello to Deputy Chief McRAY as well."},{"t":3611,"text":"Um, I'm going to start with something that, um, came"},{"t":3614,"text":"to my attention this week. It was at the recent"},{"t":3617,"text":"police board meeting around the quarter to 2026 financial report."},{"t":3623,"text":"And it was noted that salaries and benefits are five"},{"t":3627,"text":"percent underspending for the auxiliary and special municipal councils"},{"t":3637,"text":"constables that are offsetting that for the same reason. And"},{"t":3640,"text":"I also noted that over time is 22 percent over"},{"t":3645,"text":"TARK over target to the backfill of these vacancy. So"},{"t":3648,"text":"I was just wondering, could you give us an explanation"},{"t":3651,"text":"of that and, and secondly, how is that affecting the"},{"t":3656,"text":"overall strength? Is that, um, part of the reason why,"},{"t":3660,"text":"um, the crime reduction unit hasn't been stood up yet"},{"t":3663,"text":"or is that related? And then how is it affecting"},{"t":3667,"text":"operations on the ground. Chief. Thank you. Through the chair,"},{"t":3672,"text":"that's an excellent question. Um, we are, and it's one"},{"t":3676,"text":"of the very reasons why the resource allocation review is"},{"t":3680,"text":"going to be so critical. The data that comes out"},{"t":3682,"text":"of that because it's looking at all of that. But"},{"t":3686,"text":"the reality is, um, we have an authorized strength of"},{"t":3690,"text":"284 positions. We have 82. 5 civilian positions and approximately"},{"t":3695,"text":"10 percent of our established positions are not filled. Um,"},{"t":3699,"text":"So this equates to about 29 positions. This includes the"},{"t":3703,"text":"eight crime reduction unit spots, but it does not include"},{"t":3707,"text":"the six secanments that we have that are unfilled, but"},{"t":3710,"text":"are fully funded. So you can see we have a"},{"t":3713,"text":"lot of capacity in terms of hiring and filling those"},{"t":3716,"text":"positions. And of course the, um, challenge with that is"},{"t":3722,"text":"your overtime tends to go up through the roof. So"},{"t":3725,"text":"this is why the securing of positions from this council"},{"t":3733,"text":"in particular for 2026 was so critical. That's the first"},{"t":3737,"text":"step. The second step is can we hire that many"},{"t":3741,"text":"people? And indeed we have more applicants to the department"},{"t":3744,"text":"than we've ever had. The third, absolutely critical piece of"},{"t":3748,"text":"that puzzle is the South Island Police Academy. Because we"},{"t":3751,"text":"were always very limited in the number of police officers"},{"t":3754,"text":"we could train at the JIBC because we would only"},{"t":3757,"text":"get historically six or seven seeds. So, um, we now"},{"t":3763,"text":"have this recipe in place to address those vacancies. Unfortunately,"},{"t":3768,"text":"it takes time. That training is nine months. Um, but"},{"t":3773,"text":"those factors and then overlay the resource allocation review on"},{"t":3778,"text":"top of it. That is all, um, a recipe for"},{"t":3783,"text":"being able to provide long - term data - driven"},{"t":3788,"text":"information to this council about what VicPD's needs truly are"},{"t":3793,"text":"to drive down that overtime number, to fill those vacancies,"},{"t":3799,"text":"um, and to ensure that we are finding efficiencies, but"},{"t":3804,"text":"also being realistic in terms of what our needs are."},{"t":3808,"text":"So, um, you know, we're really looking forward to this"},{"t":3812,"text":"all coming together. It takes time, as I say, um,"},{"t":3816,"text":"and I'm looking forward to coming back to Council for"},{"t":3819,"text":"budget 2027 and talking more about that. Yeah. Those were"},{"t":3822,"text":"my next notes here is that it, and it was,"},{"t":3824,"text":"it was also about the resource allocation review and how"},{"t":3828,"text":"important that is going to be for whoever is sitting"},{"t":3832,"text":"at this table in 2027. Chief, would you mind, or"},{"t":3836,"text":"through you mayor, so what is the projected way that"},{"t":3844,"text":"you might be able to get closer to these hiring"},{"t":3846,"text":"targets in 2026? I know you touched on it in"},{"t":3850,"text":"your report because we do have recruits that are going"},{"t":3853,"text":"to that South Island police academy. I wrote the numbers"},{"t":3856,"text":"down. 16, 16. So how, how is that all going"},{"t":3860,"text":"to, to play into, um, filling these vacancies? Chief. Through"},{"t":3866,"text":"the chair, thank you. So we have six recruits that"},{"t":3868,"text":"just graduated in the last two weeks. We have another"},{"t":3871,"text":"11 that are going through the justice institute of BC"},{"t":3874,"text":"that will graduate in coming months. And then we'll have"},{"t":3877,"text":"16 starting in September and another 16 starting in January."},{"t":3882,"text":"Now these are exceptional numbers. We are not going to"},{"t":3884,"text":"have 32 recruits going through in a six month period,"},{"t":3888,"text":"typically moving forward. But this is all in an effort"},{"t":3891,"text":"to take advantage of the fact that we have the"},{"t":3894,"text":"funding in large part thanks to this council that we"},{"t":3897,"text":"have the training capacity. And the pilot project for the"},{"t":3901,"text":"South Island Police Academy is only two years. So we"},{"t":3904,"text":"want to make sure we take full advantage of that."},{"t":3906,"text":"Um, and demonstrate the value of that resource and that,"},{"t":3912,"text":"uh, being able to host the Academy here. One of"},{"t":3915,"text":"the silver linings about the Academy is that, um, it's"},{"t":3919,"text":"a cost saver. We don't have the final numbers in."},{"t":3922,"text":"I look forward to talking to that, to you more"},{"t":3923,"text":"about that at budget 2027. But just to give you"},{"t":3926,"text":"an idea, we were spending 22, 000 dollars a month"},{"t":3930,"text":"on housing alone for our recruits to go to the"},{"t":3933,"text":"JIBC in US MiNSTER. Extraordinary costs. On top of that,"},{"t":3940,"text":"my primary focus with respect to this project was not"},{"t":3942,"text":"a cost saving, um, endeavour, to be honest. It was"},{"t":3946,"text":"more about the equity piece. Being able to hire those"},{"t":3948,"text":"people who can't leave the island, but would, would perhaps"},{"t":3952,"text":"make exceptional police officers. Um, so, you know, there's a"},{"t":3957,"text":"silver lining to it as well in that there have"},{"t":3959,"text":"been some cost savings. Um, aside from all of the"},{"t":3962,"text":"other, uh, really positive benefits. So that's our plan to"},{"t":3966,"text":"fill those positions and we're really excited about getting to"},{"t":3970,"text":"a position where for the first time, certainly in years,"},{"t":3974,"text":"if not in decades. Vic PD will be able to"},{"t":3977,"text":"be at its authorized strength. Great. I really hope that"},{"t":3980,"text":"that pilot. Proves effective because clearly that's really required. So"},{"t":3986,"text":"thank you for all that information. My, just the third"},{"t":3989,"text":"thing on this for me is that it does concern"},{"t":3993,"text":"me at the current state of the mental health of"},{"t":3996,"text":"the officers currently deployed. Like that over time must be"},{"t":4000,"text":"tough on them. Could you please comment on that and"},{"t":4004,"text":"just let us know how many accommodated offers are currently"},{"t":4009,"text":"on mental health or health or leave over injury. Through"},{"t":4016,"text":"the chair. Thank you. So and thank you for your"},{"t":4018,"text":"concern. I share that concern. In fact, we've just revamped"},{"t":4021,"text":"our psychological services at Vic PD to ensure that, uh,"},{"t":4026,"text":"getting our members what they need. You know, Vic PD"},{"t":4029,"text":"is full of exceptional people, but they are exposed to"},{"t":4032,"text":"exceptional circumstances in our communities as well. And we want"},{"t":4035,"text":"to make sure that we are supporting them, um, when"},{"t":4039,"text":"they go through some of those difficult experiences, but also,"},{"t":4043,"text":"um, the overtime is a great example of one of"},{"t":4046,"text":"the pressures that our members are feeling. Um, particularly out"},{"t":4049,"text":"on the front line, on the road. So one of"},{"t":4051,"text":"the things we've done is we've reduced our vacancies in"},{"t":4054,"text":"patrol to four. So that still four vacancies is not"},{"t":4058,"text":"ideal. But we have moved things around internally to make"},{"t":4062,"text":"sure that our priority for filling vacancies has been on"},{"t":4065,"text":"the front line. Um, because we recognise that our members"},{"t":4069,"text":"are going from call to call to call. Another thing"},{"t":4071,"text":"we've done in terms of the overtime is as you"},{"t":4074,"text":"well know, uh, we made a very deliberate and months"},{"t":4078,"text":"long effort to withdraw our resources from the, uh, weekly"},{"t":4082,"text":"protests that was happening, that happens here in the City"},{"t":4085,"text":"of Victoria. That has proved to be, um, a very"},{"t":4089,"text":"positive decision. We had a significant number of resources that"},{"t":4091,"text":"was dedicated to that every week. And our members were"},{"t":4094,"text":"clearly telling us we are exhausted. You can imagine for"},{"t":4098,"text":"events like Canada Day, the pride parade. We have a"},{"t":4101,"text":"massive number of police officers who are out and about,"},{"t":4104,"text":"um, and that's all in addition to their regular duties"},{"t":4106,"text":"for the most part. Um, so we are very alive"},{"t":4111,"text":"to the fact that member wellness is a real concern"},{"t":4113,"text":"in our current climate. And we are taking steps to"},{"t":4116,"text":"try and address that. Um, in terms of the number"},{"t":4120,"text":"of members who are off, maybe I'll, uh, pass it"},{"t":4123,"text":"over to Deputy McRAY. It looks like he has that"},{"t":4125,"text":"data. I don't have it right in front of me,"},{"t":4126,"text":"but it looks like he does. That'd be the McRae."},{"t":4129,"text":"Thank you. And through the chair, uh, I will preface"},{"t":4133,"text":"this with the number varies literally by the day. So,"},{"t":4136,"text":"um, this was as of about one month ago, uh,"},{"t":4140,"text":"we had 19 officers who were, uh, either working in"},{"t":4146,"text":"an accommodated role so that this doesn't mean they're often"},{"t":4148,"text":"gone completely. Or in some cases off and not with,"},{"t":4152,"text":"uh, not working with the department. So, uh, we, I"},{"t":4157,"text":"think working out it as a percentage that would be"},{"t":4159,"text":"something like six or seven percent just going off the"},{"t":4162,"text":"top of my head, which would be well in line"},{"t":4164,"text":"with what we would expect to see. And most police"},{"t":4167,"text":"agencies across the country as the chief has pointed out"},{"t":4170,"text":"trying to reduce over time to trying to reduce that"},{"t":4172,"text":"stress on our members is essential. And thank you for"},{"t":4175,"text":"raising at Councillor because it's something we talk about and"},{"t":4177,"text":"think about all the time. Yeah. It does concern me."},{"t":4182,"text":"And I, with the resource allocation review, it's going to"},{"t":4186,"text":"be a really important, um, part of that. Because this"},{"t":4191,"text":"perception that police can solve the community safety and wellbeing"},{"t":4195,"text":"issues is really hard on officers, I think. That's my,"},{"t":4199,"text":"my perception of that. And all the lack of social"},{"t":4203,"text":"services that falls on the plate of the police department"},{"t":4206,"text":"is just fundamentally unfair. So chief, I'm absolutely with you"},{"t":4211,"text":"on how the different systems need to come together island"},{"t":4215,"text":"health, BC housing, all the community services. And I'm just"},{"t":4218,"text":"wondering, um, can you comment on how that collective work"},{"t":4224,"text":"is happening? Or are we going to have to, um,"},{"t":4228,"text":"wait until 2027 to talk or not, I can't assume"},{"t":4232,"text":"that I'm going to be here, but in 2027, when"},{"t":4234,"text":"these budget issues come up, will council have to wait"},{"t":4238,"text":"until that time? Or is there this kind of collective"},{"t":4242,"text":"action of the systems working together happening now. Chief. Chair,"},{"t":4247,"text":"great question. And that is something that we are doing"},{"t":4251,"text":"literally on a daily basis. So I'll give an example."},{"t":4255,"text":"Uh, we saw this dramatic increase in overdoses, um, as"},{"t":4260,"text":"a result of metatomadine. And we've seen this real dramatic"},{"t":4263,"text":"change in the way people are responding to naloxone. So"},{"t":4266,"text":"just yesterday, our team at Vic PDE met with a"},{"t":4270,"text":"number of different health providers through ILENT health, but also"},{"t":4274,"text":"with our departmental doctor, Dr. V. They sat down and"},{"t":4277,"text":"this is with nurses, doctors, from ILILENTH street nurses, outreach"},{"t":4282,"text":"teams, um, there was a representative from the harbour. And"},{"t":4286,"text":"they all sat down and talked about how we can"},{"t":4289,"text":"all work together to, um, respond more effectively to those"},{"t":4295,"text":"overdose situations. That's just one example. And that just happened,"},{"t":4299,"text":"it was either yesterday or the day before. I've lost"},{"t":4300,"text":"track of my days. But, um, you know, and that"},{"t":4302,"text":"was that Vic PD and everybody came together and online"},{"t":4305,"text":"and had a large discussion about what some of our"},{"t":4308,"text":"constraints were with respect to how much naloxone were administering"},{"t":4312,"text":"at any given time. Um, you know, the impact of,"},{"t":4316,"text":"um, Victoria Fire withdrawing from attending overdoses and how that's"},{"t":4321,"text":"impacted our members. Um, this is just one example of"},{"t":4324,"text":"us working with our partners. And we do that work"},{"t":4326,"text":"every day. Um, you know, I routinely meet with, um,"},{"t":4332,"text":"Kathy McNeil from Island Health. I meet with community partners"},{"t":4338,"text":"on a weekly basis, uh, throughout Victoria. And we are"},{"t":4343,"text":"constantly coming together and saying, how can we more effectively"},{"t":4346,"text":"work together? Whether that's with restorative justice Victoria, whether it's"},{"t":4350,"text":"with staff at the harbour, um, like I say, whether"},{"t":4353,"text":"it's with island health, um, MCFD, you name it, housing,"},{"t":4358,"text":"BC Housing. We are constantly working together and sitting at"},{"t":4361,"text":"collaborative tables to try and figure out how we can"},{"t":4364,"text":"together address some of these really, really wicked problems that"},{"t":4369,"text":"we're seeing in community. And I can't stress, and in"},{"t":4373,"text":"fact, now that I think about the sitting right here,"},{"t":4375,"text":"I can't stress how often I'm engaged in conversations that"},{"t":4378,"text":"have absolutely nothing to do with throwing people in jail"},{"t":4383,"text":"or arresting people, but have to do with all of"},{"t":4385,"text":"these other challenges that our members are facing on a"},{"t":4388,"text":"daily basis as they're out there doing their job. Yeah."},{"t":4391,"text":"Through you, Merit. It's something that's frustrating to me as"},{"t":4393,"text":"well, because I want to see more resources go upstream,"},{"t":4397,"text":"but I understand that that is also a process. Right."},{"t":4400,"text":"We need to move from where we are to where"},{"t":4402,"text":"we want to be. So I'm happy to hear that"},{"t":4404,"text":"all of these conversations amongst the systems are happening and"},{"t":4409,"text":"you're working together. And thank you for answering my questions"},{"t":4412,"text":"about the, um, the five percent underspent because that helps"},{"t":4420,"text":"me to understand this takes time. So there was a"},{"t":4422,"text":"lot of money levied towards the police department for 2026."},{"t":4427,"text":"Very substantial portion of the tax lift. And we want"},{"t":4431,"text":"to make sure that money is utilised. But I understand"},{"t":4433,"text":"now that this takes time. And again, the South Island,"},{"t":4438,"text":"um, Academy is going to really help with that. Um,"},{"t":4441,"text":"just one final question about, um, Vic PD withdrawing from"},{"t":4448,"text":"VimQ, the Vancouver Island integrated major crime unit. I think"},{"t":4453,"text":"other people may have questions about this as well. But"},{"t":4455,"text":"I think my number one question is now what happens"},{"t":4458,"text":"to the current, um, homicide investigations that are with VIMQ"},{"t":4465,"text":"that are victorious. Chief. Through the chair, thank you for"},{"t":4470,"text":"that question. So we did indeed make the decision after"},{"t":4473,"text":"months and months of discussion and deliberation and analysis to"},{"t":4477,"text":"withdraw from the Vancouver Island integrated major crime unit. We"},{"t":4482,"text":"have, um, a number of people who are embedded in"},{"t":4485,"text":"that unit, but it is not a sakhanment, like for"},{"t":4488,"text":"example, CFSU or Ursu. We actually pay the salaries and"},{"t":4491,"text":"benefits of the people who are there. So, uh, you"},{"t":4495,"text":"know, the reality is that, um, there was a number"},{"t":4499,"text":"of considerations that went into this decision. Um, and ultimately"},{"t":4505,"text":"it comes down to recognising that our homicide rate has"},{"t":4510,"text":"been dropping, uh, over many, many years. Um, we average"},{"t":4515,"text":"over the last 10 years somewhere between one and two"},{"t":4518,"text":"homicides a year. We have a significant investment of resources"},{"t":4521,"text":"with VIMQ. And we are now in a position where"},{"t":4527,"text":"we have the skills, abilities, um, the resources to handle"},{"t":4535,"text":"those homicide investigations ourselves. I myself am, I'm an accredited"},{"t":4539,"text":"team commander, um, so I'm very, very familiar with what"},{"t":4542,"text":"it takes to do these investigations and even the costs"},{"t":4545,"text":"associated with doing so. We intend to bring those members"},{"t":4549,"text":"back to Vic PD. And there are five civilians, or"},{"t":4553,"text":"sorry, five sworn members and one civilian member. So it's"},{"t":4555,"text":"a significant investment. And when the next homicide comes in,"},{"t":4561,"text":"which hopefully is way, way often the future, if ever,"},{"t":4566,"text":"um, we will be well prepared to, to deal with"},{"t":4569,"text":"that and to investigate that and to investigate it properly."},{"t":4572,"text":"In terms of the files that are with VIMQ right"},{"t":4574,"text":"now, that is going to be a discussion and a"},{"t":4577,"text":"process with VIMQ to determine what files will stay with"},{"t":4581,"text":"them and what, if any files will come back to"},{"t":4583,"text":"the VICPD. Um, there's a number of considerations with respect"},{"t":4587,"text":"to that. Where the file is, how old it is,"},{"t":4590,"text":"whether the suspect identified or a person of interest identified,"},{"t":4594,"text":"um, whether it's going, if it's going through the court"},{"t":4596,"text":"process, for example, um, there's all sorts of considerations, including"},{"t":4602,"text":"the physical transfer of that file, um, you know, they"},{"t":4606,"text":"use a platform that Vic PD doesn't use for example"},{"t":4609,"text":"for their disclosure and for their, um, file management. So"},{"t":4613,"text":"we'll be looking at all of those, um, those factors."},{"t":4617,"text":"However, what I can tell you is that regardless of"},{"t":4619,"text":"the outcome of that, I know with certainty that Vic"},{"t":4623,"text":"PD will be able to, uh, maintain, um, continue investigating"},{"t":4629,"text":"homicides, um, as necessary. And as I say, we have"},{"t":4633,"text":"the skills, abilities and people to be able to do"},{"t":4635,"text":"that. And we are incredibly grateful for the relationship we've"},{"t":4640,"text":"had with VimQ. We have an excellent relationship with ERCMP."},{"t":4644,"text":"I spoke to Deputy Commissioner McDonald yesterday as recently as"},{"t":4649,"text":"yesterday. And we have an outstanding relationship with URCMP. We"},{"t":4654,"text":"are very, very grateful for the relationship that we've had"},{"t":4657,"text":"with them and with VimQ. And we will continue to"},{"t":4660,"text":"work collaboratively with them. This was a Vic PD decision."},{"t":4664,"text":"And it was made in the best interests of the"},{"t":4666,"text":"communities of Victorian Esquimalt. Okay. Thank you for that. Um,"},{"t":4671,"text":"that's it for me just a couple of little housekeeping"},{"t":4673,"text":"details for me. I did take notes here, but is"},{"t":4675,"text":"it possible for us to get a copy of your"},{"t":4678,"text":"presentation. Through the chair, absolutely. I'm happy to provide you"},{"t":4682,"text":"with a copy of my presentation and my speaking notes"},{"t":4684,"text":"a few of them. That would be great. And also"},{"t":4686,"text":"I'd like to reach out to you to do a"},{"t":4689,"text":"ride along. Can we do that before the end of"},{"t":4691,"text":"this term? I think I'm overdue just wondering how long"},{"t":4695,"text":"that would take to set up. Through the chair, we"},{"t":4697,"text":"would welcome you out on a ride along. You might"},{"t":4699,"text":"even want to consider walking with a foot patrol unit."},{"t":4703,"text":"And, uh, we can set that up relatively quickly. Okay."},{"t":4705,"text":"Great. And the spirit of collaboration. I think that would"},{"t":4707,"text":"be a really prudent thing to do. Thank you for"},{"t":4709,"text":"your service to all of you. Thank you. I have"},{"t":4713,"text":"councillors five more speakers and it is convention that we"},{"t":4717,"text":"would take a break actually a few minutes ago. So"},{"t":4719,"text":"I'm going to suggest that we do that now. Uh,"},{"t":4722,"text":"and that we return at 1033. So we'll just try"},{"t":4725,"text":"and take 10 minutes. And then as I mentioned, uh,"},{"t":4728,"text":"we have five additional speakers, I suspect we'll encounter at"},{"t":4731,"text":"least another 30 to 45 minutes on this topic. And"},{"t":4735,"text":"so we will proceed as expeditiously as Council Desires. So"},{"t":4738,"text":"let's take a short break and we'll be back at"},{"t":4741,"text":"1033."},{"t":4790,"text":"Thank you so much, Chair. I just want to clarify,"},{"t":4795,"text":"I got a note from the fire chief just to"},{"t":4799,"text":"clarify my comments with respect to overdose calls. He just"},{"t":4803,"text":"clarified with me that, of course, overdose calls, span a"},{"t":4808,"text":"variety of acuity classifications. And although they do not respond"},{"t":4812,"text":"to low acuity overdose calls any longer, they still respond"},{"t":4817,"text":"to high acudi overdose calls. So I misspoke by saying"},{"t":4820,"text":"that they no longer respond to any overdose calls. And"},{"t":4823,"text":"I want to apologise for that. And just correct the"},{"t":4826,"text":"record that it's just those low acuity overdose calls that"},{"t":4830,"text":"the fire department no longer goes to. Thank you very"},{"t":4832,"text":"much for that, Chief. Much appreciated Councillor Hammond. You're up"},{"t":4835,"text":"next. Thanks, Mayor. I think I just have one question."},{"t":4840,"text":"And in fact, I know it's not an easy answer."},{"t":4844,"text":"So I sent the chief, my question a couple days"},{"t":4847,"text":"ago. And at the break, she acknowledged that she had"},{"t":4850,"text":"received it. And so I'll just go through it. It"},{"t":4853,"text":"got a bit of a preamble if you can manage"},{"t":4856,"text":"with that. I know that, especially from the information that"},{"t":4860,"text":"we were talking about this morning, that there has been"},{"t":4863,"text":"improvements in some areas and some by statistics, others by"},{"t":4868,"text":"anecdotes. Although you talk about the disorder, um, as increasing"},{"t":4874,"text":"when other issues of crime are down below. We get,"},{"t":4878,"text":"as councillors, we get these emails on a regular basis."},{"t":4883,"text":"And we get them from often, um, the same people"},{"t":4887,"text":"who, whether it's the 800 block of Pandora or the"},{"t":4890,"text":"thousand block a Pandora or 800 of Johnson or in"},{"t":4894,"text":"other areas in which my heart just sinks when they"},{"t":4899,"text":"show us the pictures and they explain how horrendous the"},{"t":4902,"text":"disruption is. And so what they say is that police"},{"t":4906,"text":"and bylaw turn up. And if the opportunity to disperse"},{"t":4911,"text":"people, they do. And then they just come back. And"},{"t":4916,"text":"as a matter of fact, there was something that I"},{"t":4919,"text":"just took a little bit from a resident this morning."},{"t":4924,"text":"He says, I've been very disappointed to see all the"},{"t":4925,"text":"tents and campers who have chosen to make the 1000"},{"t":4928,"text":"block their home for the summer. Although police and bylaw"},{"t":4931,"text":"staff come by to remove the tents in their inhabitants,"},{"t":4934,"text":"I always know that the campers were returning a day"},{"t":4937,"text":"or so. This situation seems like a game of cat"},{"t":4940,"text":"and mouse and residents are just left watching and shaking"},{"t":4942,"text":"their heads. We have owned our apartment for almost 10"},{"t":4946,"text":"years, and it is unimaginable to us that this situation"},{"t":4949,"text":"has been allowed to continue following the unusual COVID years."},{"t":4954,"text":"As an elderly woman, 79 years old, and, uh, with"},{"t":4957,"text":"an almost 80 year old husband with dementia, this neighbourhood"},{"t":4960,"text":"is a very challenging place to live. And I know"},{"t":4962,"text":"that the other elderly ladies in my building feel the"},{"t":4966,"text":"same. She also said, reading the city's comments about the"},{"t":4970,"text":"first year's results for the community safety, make me laugh"},{"t":4974,"text":"and then angry. Obviously, they don't live in my community."},{"t":4977,"text":"So with that, and again, I know it's, you know"},{"t":4980,"text":"it's not an easy answer, but the amount of times"},{"t":4984,"text":"that I have to respond saying, I'm sorry. You know,"},{"t":4988,"text":"I wish it were better. What can we do to"},{"t":4991,"text":"go beyond this situation as she says cat and mouse"},{"t":4995,"text":"and people use other terms where those who are able"},{"t":4998,"text":"to enforce our laws and help people, but to disperse"},{"t":5003,"text":"them from the disorder. How could we do it so"},{"t":5005,"text":"it's not just this one hour or maybe half a"},{"t":5008,"text":"day or a day at the longest and everything just"},{"t":5011,"text":"goes back to abnormal. It wouldn't want to call it"},{"t":5013,"text":"normal. Chief. Through the chair, thank you Councillor for the"},{"t":5017,"text":"question. It is a very large question. Um, and it's"},{"t":5021,"text":"certainly not one that I is pleased chief alone can"},{"t":5024,"text":"necessarily respond to. But I can tell you from my"},{"t":5028,"text":"perspective, my thoughts, uh, on your, your comments and your"},{"t":5032,"text":"question. The first is that, um, I've said repeatedly and"},{"t":5037,"text":"I'll continue to say, we have to all work together."},{"t":5040,"text":"Um, this is not just a pleasing matter. It's not"},{"t":5042,"text":"just a city matter. It's not just a housing matter."},{"t":5045,"text":"It's not just a health matter. It really requires everyone"},{"t":5048,"text":"to be at the table to think about what those"},{"t":5049,"text":"long - term solutions are going to be. It's very,"},{"t":5053,"text":"uh, I share the frustration that you're expresses because I"},{"t":5058,"text":"hear that from my members. My members are saying, you"},{"t":5061,"text":"know, we ask people to move along. We ask them"},{"t":5063,"text":"to pack up their belongings. We supervise them while they"},{"t":5065,"text":"do that. Um, and then they go around the block"},{"t":5069,"text":"and they sit somewhere else or they come back within"},{"t":5072,"text":"a few hours and how frustrating that is. I think"},{"t":5075,"text":"that speaks to the need for a place for people"},{"t":5078,"text":"to go. Um, they need a place to go for"},{"t":5082,"text":"treatment, for supports, for individually responsive housing. And to the"},{"t":5089,"text":"need for positive flow capacity so that people can go"},{"t":5092,"text":"from street to shelter to supportive housing to independent living"},{"t":5096,"text":"without getting stopped at any one of those stages. I"},{"t":5099,"text":"think that's absolutely critical. Um, you know, so I can't"},{"t":5105,"text":"tell you what I think the solution is, but I"},{"t":5107,"text":"can say that we share that frustration. I hear that"},{"t":5110,"text":"from my members every day, um, you know, it's, it"},{"t":5115,"text":"feels at times a bit futile in terms of where"},{"t":5118,"text":"do people go when we ask them to leave. Having"},{"t":5120,"text":"said that. Um, you know, their work is also one"},{"t":5125,"text":"of enforcement, which they are engaged in, which is an"},{"t":5128,"text":"important component of this. But it is only one piece"},{"t":5131,"text":"of the puzzle. And I think that would be my"},{"t":5135,"text":"major takeaway from your question is that, you know, we"},{"t":5140,"text":"really have to consider, um, uh, all hands - on"},{"t":5145,"text":"deck approach for dealing with these wicked challenges because it's"},{"t":5148,"text":"not going to be solved by one service provider alone."},{"t":5151,"text":"It's certainly not going to be solved by the police"},{"t":5152,"text":"alone. We all have a significant role to play, but"},{"t":5156,"text":"we have to be, uh, rowing in the same direction"},{"t":5159,"text":"and playing the same game. And, um, I think that's"},{"t":5163,"text":"probably my, my biggest, um, piece of comment or my"},{"t":5167,"text":"biggest comment with respect to your question. Thanks Mayor. If"},{"t":5171,"text":"I could just have one follow up, I don't mean"},{"t":5174,"text":"to catch you when I say this, but do you"},{"t":5176,"text":"think I can tell these people who call us and"},{"t":5179,"text":"emails that there's hope. Ahead. Chief. Through the chair, I"},{"t":5186,"text":"think there is absolutely hope. I think the work that"},{"t":5190,"text":"we've done in the past year is a demonstration of"},{"t":5192,"text":"that very thing. Um, now is not the time for"},{"t":5196,"text":"us to take our foot off the gas. Now is"},{"t":5198,"text":"the time for us to double down, um, to, uh,"},{"t":5203,"text":"increase our, uh, our work towards helping people get on"},{"t":5208,"text":"a better path. And, um, you know, I think expecting"},{"t":5212,"text":"to see immediate, significant results in a number of months"},{"t":5218,"text":"is a bit naive. These things take time. These, these"},{"t":5221,"text":"challenges and these social issues took a long time to"},{"t":5224,"text":"develop. And I think they're going to take a long"},{"t":5225,"text":"time for us to address. But, um, do we have"},{"t":5230,"text":"hope? Absolutely. I do. That's reassuring. Councillor Gardner, you're up"},{"t":5239,"text":"next."},{"t":5250,"text":"And please turn your mic on."},{"t":5263,"text":"I apologise for delay. I was typing some of the"},{"t":5265,"text":"answers because one of that question more or less overlapped"},{"t":5267,"text":"one of mine. So first welcome, uh, to new deputy"},{"t":5272,"text":"chief health. And welcome to, uh, Deputy Chief McRAY and"},{"t":5277,"text":"yourself. So thank you very much for coming once again"},{"t":5280,"text":"to speak to us. The update is most welcome. And"},{"t":5283,"text":"I was pleased to see the decreases and theft and"},{"t":5285,"text":"some of the other, um, issues and the effectiveness of"},{"t":5288,"text":"the foot patrol. It's very important. And I've also been"},{"t":5291,"text":"very impressed over the years of the meaningful service that"},{"t":5294,"text":"you do of the public. They surpassed so many, um,"},{"t":5298,"text":"surveys that I've seen elsewhere. Skully Azone officers, thank you"},{"t":5302,"text":"again for speaking on that. It is still very contentious"},{"t":5305,"text":"in the Council, I believe. The letter of support from"},{"t":5307,"text":"this council was forwarded with a five to four vote."},{"t":5311,"text":"So now my questions, uh, if I can get my"},{"t":5314,"text":"computer going here. With the profile evic PD, many people"},{"t":5320,"text":"may be interested in your plans for the years ahead."},{"t":5322,"text":"And so could you please describe for the public the"},{"t":5325,"text":"opportunities for the public to attend board meetings or other"},{"t":5328,"text":"VIC PD meetings. Chief. Thank you for the question through"},{"t":5332,"text":"the chair. So, uh, we actually had discussion, uh, recently"},{"t":5337,"text":"with respect to board meetings, the members of the public"},{"t":5339,"text":"are always welcome to attend 850 caledonia to participate in"},{"t":5344,"text":"our board meetings. And in fact, we had a member"},{"t":5346,"text":"of the public attend our last board meeting. Um, but"},{"t":5349,"text":"in addition to that, I'm hoping that everyone has noticed"},{"t":5351,"text":"over the last number of months, we have been live"},{"t":5353,"text":"streaming our board meetings in an effort to ensure that"},{"t":5356,"text":"people have immediate access to what's happening in those meetings"},{"t":5360,"text":"and can clearly see and hear what's actually going on."},{"t":5363,"text":"I know there's a bit of a history here at"},{"t":5366,"text":"Vic PD of us not being able to facilitate that."},{"t":5370,"text":"There were some problems with some of the technology. And"},{"t":5371,"text":"we've resolved those problems moving forward. So I hope everybody"},{"t":5376,"text":"has the opportunity to watch those board meetings live, uh,"},{"t":5380,"text":"or after the fact, but certainly the chance to attend"},{"t":5383,"text":"in person is always there. And, uh, people are very"},{"t":5387,"text":"welcome to do that. That's great. And when is the"},{"t":5389,"text":"next board meeting. The next board meeting is actually not"},{"t":5393,"text":"until September. It's the third Tuesday in September. Um, August"},{"t":5398,"text":"is the, uh, in August, historically no board meeting for"},{"t":5403,"text":"Vic PD for the Victoria SQUAMO police board. Okay. Whoops."},{"t":5409,"text":"So the next board meeting is on the. September 15th."},{"t":5415,"text":"September. 15th. Thank you. Now my next question was really"},{"t":5422,"text":"somewhat answered. It was similar to the one that Councillor"},{"t":5425,"text":"Mohamed asked you. Now, we could go, I stated that"},{"t":5428,"text":"for residents, another five to 10 years is not something"},{"t":5430,"text":"they can accept when they've been living with it for"},{"t":5432,"text":"so many years. The residents in the condominiums and other"},{"t":5437,"text":"residential housing around it. And of course, uh, that may"},{"t":5441,"text":"be the rest of their lives, especially for seniors. And"},{"t":5443,"text":"for those on the streets, they may not live another"},{"t":5445,"text":"five to 10 years. And, um, so we also heard"},{"t":5450,"text":"from last week from staff that really the number of"},{"t":5452,"text":"people sheltering on the street in the parks has not"},{"t":5455,"text":"noticeably decreased. So do you see a time really within"},{"t":5459,"text":"my lifetime even that there won't be so many no"},{"t":5462,"text":"zones for our residents. Chief. Through the chair, my understanding"},{"t":5468,"text":"was that there actually had been a decrease and the"},{"t":5470,"text":"number of people who were sheltering in parks, for example,"},{"t":5474,"text":"um, but perhaps I mistaken. I'm sorry Councillor Gardner, I'm"},{"t":5479,"text":"going to need to ask you to repeat your question."},{"t":5482,"text":"Okay. Okay. Just that do you see a time when"},{"t":5486,"text":"these streets and parks will not be no go zones"},{"t":5489,"text":"for so many of our residents who live here. And"},{"t":5492,"text":"that's not just a problem with just downtown, but we"},{"t":5496,"text":"get a lot of, you know, comments and emails from"},{"t":5498,"text":"people, uh, throughout the city when in some encounters land"},{"t":5504,"text":"right in front of them. Do you see a time"},{"t":5506,"text":"in my lifetime at least. Through the chair? Councillor Gardner,"},{"t":5510,"text":"I do believe there had been a decrease in that"},{"t":5512,"text":"number, which I think is moving in the right direction"},{"t":5515,"text":"and certainly speaks to the accessibility of those spaces for"},{"t":5519,"text":"everyone in community. Yeah. Yeah. Because I think something we"},{"t":5522,"text":"heard also from staff last week was of course that"},{"t":5524,"text":"people in the support of housing, which also, um, the"},{"t":5528,"text":"select ones of support of housing permit illicit drug use."},{"t":5531,"text":"And they come out in the day and joined the"},{"t":5533,"text":"others. And so that number of totally in the city"},{"t":5537,"text":"is increasing. We now have 1. 6 to 1. 8"},{"t":5539,"text":"percent of the population. That are either in support of"},{"t":5542,"text":"housing that permits solicit drug use or on the streets"},{"t":5545,"text":"and parks, which is not, of course, you're doing, but"},{"t":5547,"text":"that is a real concern, I think, to all of"},{"t":5550,"text":"us. Now this is a tricky one for you. Now"},{"t":5553,"text":"you gave a wonderful answer to Councillor Lauten on staffing"},{"t":5558,"text":"and training. How many officers are you actually light now."},{"t":5566,"text":"Through the chair, our authorized strength is 284. And approximately"},{"t":5571,"text":"10 percent of our established positions are not filled. So"},{"t":5574,"text":"there are not filled. However, this answer becomes very complex"},{"t":5580,"text":"very quickly because we have members who are at the"},{"t":5582,"text":"Academy who are not operational. No, I got that. We"},{"t":5585,"text":"have members who are off on WCBs. We have light"},{"t":5588,"text":"duties members. We have accommodated members and Def Eating McCray"},{"t":5592,"text":"spoke to those numbers earlier. So how many officers are"},{"t":5595,"text":"dedicated to a squamold. Chief. I'm going to defer to"},{"t":5601,"text":"Deputy McRAY on this 24. I believe it 24 is"},{"t":5606,"text":"the number. So what years end, if a squamblet is"},{"t":5608,"text":"not part of Vic PD, would Vic PD then be"},{"t":5611,"text":"in full complement. Through the chair councillor I can't answer"},{"t":5617,"text":"that question without, um, some more analysis of the numbers."},{"t":5621,"text":"Okay. Thank you. I just raised that because I think"},{"t":5623,"text":"that's important to realise because the squamol agreement is ending."},{"t":5630,"text":"Now. I took some note when you spoke to us"},{"t":5634,"text":"last time or time before. When you made that you"},{"t":5638,"text":"said the proportion of Victoria had a very high level"},{"t":5640,"text":"of those suffering from addictions and with mental health challenges"},{"t":5644,"text":"who are on our streets through in our parks and"},{"t":5647,"text":"perhaps in support of housing. Now the numbers provided by"},{"t":5650,"text":"staff over the past months suggest that we would have,"},{"t":5653,"text":"as I mentioned, 1. 6 to 1. 8 percent of"},{"t":5656,"text":"the current population in that state. And that they were,"},{"t":5661,"text":"I had asked them to compare the proportion of Victoria"},{"t":5664,"text":"with other like - sized cities. And you had mentioned,"},{"t":5668,"text":"of course, the Vancouver situation. Is there any actual database"},{"t":5671,"text":"you know that actually has this kind of information. At"},{"t":5674,"text":"this time. Chief. Through the chair, Councillor Gardner, I think"},{"t":5680,"text":"what I refer to as when I first started here"},{"t":5682,"text":"and I still do believe this, uh, that anecdotally there"},{"t":5685,"text":"appears to be a disproportionate challenge with people who are,"},{"t":5690,"text":"um, uh. Disproportionate challenge with street disorder here in Victoria,"},{"t":5697,"text":"partly because Victoria is so small, because the population is"},{"t":5700,"text":"so small, but really because it's physically a very small"},{"t":5702,"text":"city, along with a whole number of other issues. Um,"},{"t":5705,"text":"so I think that's what you're referring to. Um, there"},{"t":5709,"text":"are, of course, all sorts of, um, pointed time studies"},{"t":5714,"text":"and population analysis and homeless counts that can be relied"},{"t":5718,"text":"on for that type of data from what I gather."},{"t":5721,"text":"Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Cause our point in time of course"},{"t":5723,"text":"is regional, not the city. And so that's part of"},{"t":5726,"text":"the whole problem. Okay. So I assume then there is"},{"t":5728,"text":"no database that you know of of any kind. I'm"},{"t":5732,"text":"just trying to shorten the work of our own staff."},{"t":5735,"text":"There probably isn't, right? So through the chair, Councillor Garner,"},{"t":5738,"text":"I can't answer that. I don't know if the device."},{"t":5740,"text":"And thank you very much, Chief Wilson. I'm going to"},{"t":5742,"text":"be short today. And please really our thanks to your"},{"t":5744,"text":"officers civilian staff volunteers and to your board. Thank you"},{"t":5748,"text":"so much. Thank you, Councillor Kim. You're up next. Um,"},{"t":5752,"text":"through the chair, thank you. And, um, yeah, nice to"},{"t":5756,"text":"see you. Um, first I just wanted to ask the"},{"t":5760,"text":"police chief to comment on any trends in the crime"},{"t":5763,"text":"severity index. I threw the chair. Thank you for that"},{"t":5766,"text":"question. The crime spirite index numbers came out yesterday. So"},{"t":5769,"text":"I did have a chance to look at them briefly."},{"t":5773,"text":"And certainly the crime severity index for Victoria has increased."},{"t":5780,"text":"The crime severity index, I'll just try and find the"},{"t":5783,"text":"numbers here. Um, has gone up, let's see. The overall"},{"t":5789,"text":"CSI increase from 152. 17 in 2024 to 161. 18"},{"t":5794,"text":"in 2025. Of course, any increase in the crime severity"},{"t":5798,"text":"index or any statistical analysis with respect to crime in"},{"t":5802,"text":"Victoria is of concern for me. However, those are 2025"},{"t":5807,"text":"numbers to start with. So we get the data a"},{"t":5811,"text":"bit late. But also I think it's really important for"},{"t":5815,"text":"everyone to understand how the crime's ferrity index works. Um,"},{"t":5818,"text":"it measures both the volume and the seriousness of police"},{"t":5821,"text":"reported crimes, which is really separate from how we traditionally"},{"t":5825,"text":"look at crime rates where we look at one individual"},{"t":5827,"text":"incident at a time. Each offence type is weighted and"},{"t":5830,"text":"calculated by multiplying the incarceration rate for that offence by"},{"t":5835,"text":"the average prison sentence length that's handed down for it."},{"t":5839,"text":"So the most serious crimes have the highest index. For"},{"t":5842,"text":"example, homicides that surround a weight of 7, 000, just"},{"t":5846,"text":"over 7, 000 mischief is 22. So every reported incident"},{"t":5851,"text":"is multiplied by its weight and the results are summed."},{"t":5854,"text":"Divided by the population. And standardized. And there are three"},{"t":5860,"text":"different versions. There's the overall version. There's the violent and"},{"t":5863,"text":"then the nonviolent crime severity index. So it's the small"},{"t":5868,"text":"denominator core city effect. That really impacts Victoria's, uh, crime"},{"t":5875,"text":"severity index. It's not a sign that Victoria is uniquely"},{"t":5878,"text":"dangerous. The index divides a weighted crime by the roughly"},{"t":5883,"text":"90 to 100, 000 people who live in the city."},{"t":5886,"text":"But of course the city is the downtown service centre"},{"t":5889,"text":"for a region of well over 400, 000 people. So"},{"t":5892,"text":"crime generated by commuters, visitors, uh, the fact that we"},{"t":5895,"text":"have an entertainment district. And they're regionally concentrated population and"},{"t":5902,"text":"including our street population that lands in the numerator while"},{"t":5907,"text":"the denominator still stays small. Um, one of the things"},{"t":5910,"text":"that I looked into when I first got here to"},{"t":5913,"text":"Victoria was why the heck is our crime severity index."},{"t":5917,"text":"So hi. And that's why. Because our population is so"},{"t":5921,"text":"relatively low. So the denominator is low. However, we have"},{"t":5924,"text":"all of this core city phenomena, including the fact that"},{"t":5928,"text":"we're the regions downtown core, um, that we carry more"},{"t":5932,"text":"calls for service. All of these things that I've been"},{"t":5935,"text":"speaking about, um, with respect to even budget 2026, um,"},{"t":5941,"text":"there's more social disorder, higher needs population, this surrounding suburban"},{"t":5945,"text":"municipalities. And, um, we have the highest urban density in"},{"t":5950,"text":"the region. The largest number of liquor seats. The majority"},{"t":5953,"text":"of multi - unit temporary housing. And of course, where"},{"t":5956,"text":"the provincial capital. So I looked at those numbers and"},{"t":5959,"text":"was disappointed to see that our CSI has gone up."},{"t":5962,"text":"But I'm also, I also, I think the context is"},{"t":5965,"text":"really, really important. So thank you for asking that. Thank"},{"t":5969,"text":"you for that context. Uh, just a total aside question"},{"t":5974,"text":"before I get to the back to the ones I"},{"t":5976,"text":"have written. Do you folks on the, um, force now"},{"t":5980,"text":"have to do like statistical methodology classes because this is,"},{"t":5983,"text":"no, but seriously, like I think it's a part of"},{"t":5986,"text":"the public communication that you're trying to do. And this"},{"t":5989,"text":"is the, um, in - depth breakdown of the crime"},{"t":5991,"text":"severity index. I've heard in my last couple of years"},{"t":5993,"text":"here. Through the chair, thank you for that comment. Um,"},{"t":5998,"text":"you may have noticed that last year I got myself"},{"t":6001,"text":"in hot water over some crime statistics. And so we"},{"t":6005,"text":"have made efforts to make sure that we are on"},{"t":6009,"text":"point with our stats. And our numbers, um, so that"},{"t":6013,"text":"I don't get it wrong. Um, and we still have"},{"t":6015,"text":"a lot of work to do. And our public dashboard"},{"t":6017,"text":"is a great example of that. We really want to"},{"t":6020,"text":"revamp that. But a lot of this flows from the"},{"t":6022,"text":"work that Howard Tran is doing with resource allocation review."},{"t":6025,"text":"I think you will be very, very pleased to see"},{"t":6029,"text":"the in - depth data analysis that he is doing."},{"t":6033,"text":"Everything, like I say, from not just calls to service"},{"t":6035,"text":"and all the traditional policing measures, but how long does"},{"t":6038,"text":"it take our officers to respond to calls? How long"},{"t":6041,"text":"does it take them to respond to priority? One, two,"},{"t":6043,"text":"three, four calls. What is acceptable in terms of if"},{"t":6046,"text":"we add extra resources that the amount of time you"},{"t":6049,"text":"can expect those numbers to drop. Um, there's all sorts"},{"t":6053,"text":"of data analysis that he's doing that I'm really excited"},{"t":6056,"text":"to bring to this council because I think you'll find"},{"t":6057,"text":"it very, very interesting. But yes, we have been making"},{"t":6060,"text":"a concerted effort to make sure that we have our"},{"t":6062,"text":"data house in order. So thank you for acknowledging that."},{"t":6066,"text":"Oh, I'm glad you raised the resource allocation review. Cause"},{"t":6069,"text":"my next question is specifically on the methodology. It's, it's"},{"t":6073,"text":"being, um, brought to us as something that we should"},{"t":6075,"text":"look forward to. There's going to be information. My concern"},{"t":6078,"text":"is that my little troglodyte brain won't be able to"},{"t":6082,"text":"understand the methodology and thus the points you're trying to"},{"t":6085,"text":"make. So, um, it's cool that there's this process, but"},{"t":6090,"text":"how will the process itself be demystified for folks like"},{"t":6094,"text":"myself to make sure that what you are trying to"},{"t":6097,"text":"communicate is coming across. And then we can also ask"},{"t":6100,"text":"intelligent questions back. Chief. Through the chair, that is such"},{"t":6105,"text":"a great question because one of our concerns in the"},{"t":6109,"text":"department is always making sure that we are communicating with"},{"t":6113,"text":"our partners, with the public in a way that is"},{"t":6117,"text":"digestible and can be understood. Um, one of the things"},{"t":6121,"text":"that we do all the time is trying to make"},{"t":6124,"text":"sure that we're not talking and please speak, for example,"},{"t":6127,"text":"because we tend to do that in acronyms and things"},{"t":6130,"text":"that are unique to policing. That does not help the"},{"t":6133,"text":"public understand what it is we do, how we do"},{"t":6136,"text":"it, why we're doing it. And so it's interesting you"},{"t":6140,"text":"raise that. It's a conversation that Howard Tran and I"},{"t":6143,"text":"had just a few weeks ago because I was reading"},{"t":6145,"text":"through his report, his preliminary report. And I was getting"},{"t":6149,"text":"very confused myself about pieces of it that got really,"},{"t":6152,"text":"really heavy on the data. And I said to him,"},{"t":6155,"text":"one of our biggest objectives is to make sure not"},{"t":6158,"text":"that this is done and it's done right. That's all"},{"t":6160,"text":"very, very important. It's critical that we're consulting internally, that"},{"t":6164,"text":"we're looking at the data. But how are we going"},{"t":6166,"text":"to translate that in such a way that it is"},{"t":6168,"text":"digestible to our partners in the communities? And so we"},{"t":6171,"text":"are very alive to that. And we want to make"},{"t":6174,"text":"sure that you have enough detail so that you are"},{"t":6177,"text":"informed. But not so much detail that's granular in nature"},{"t":6182,"text":"that it's overwhelming and it becomes at some point it"},{"t":6185,"text":"becomes, um, unusable. So we will be working very hard"},{"t":6190,"text":"to ensure that what we bring you is something that"},{"t":6192,"text":"is reasonable and digestible. The second part of the question,"},{"t":6197,"text":"however, is then where is an avenue for questions to"},{"t":6201,"text":"come back. On things like methodology. Through the chairs. So"},{"t":6207,"text":"one of the things I would suggest is that when"},{"t":6209,"text":"the resource allocation review is completed, if you are interested,"},{"t":6213,"text":"I would be happy to come, uh, with Howard trans"},{"t":6217,"text":"so that we can have a fusoom discussion about it."},{"t":6219,"text":"But I would also suggest that, um, that the report"},{"t":6224,"text":"is released to you prior to that so that you"},{"t":6226,"text":"have a chance to review it, read it and prepare"},{"t":6230,"text":"questions for that. Right. Thank you for the homework. Um,"},{"t":6233,"text":"my last question is, um, based on a conversation I"},{"t":6237,"text":"had very recently about, uh, folks who, um, might be"},{"t":6241,"text":"apprehended by, um, members of the force and then detained."},{"t":6246,"text":"And are ultimately let back go because the crown isn't"},{"t":6249,"text":"pressing charges or we're waiting for them. And so what,"},{"t":6253,"text":"what, what is the point? What is the challenge that"},{"t":6256,"text":"you are facing with that system? And what is the"},{"t":6259,"text":"challenge that you feel the city is facing and what"},{"t":6262,"text":"next? Steve. Through the chair, another great question. So we're"},{"t":6267,"text":"engaged in, um, advocacy at the national level with respect"},{"t":6271,"text":"to bail reform, for example. Um, I'm very, very engaged"},{"t":6275,"text":"with the Canadian Association of Chiesa Police. Our chair, I"},{"t":6277,"text":"chair our drug advisory committee for the country. Um, so"},{"t":6282,"text":"there's all of that going on behind the scenes. But"},{"t":6284,"text":"in terms of how that translates into, um, what's happening"},{"t":6288,"text":"here in Victoria. That is exactly why it is so"},{"t":6293,"text":"critical that we are all working together for solutions. Because"},{"t":6298,"text":"in the serious matters, I have, uh, no concern about"},{"t":6303,"text":"our members arresting an individual, taking them before crown council,"},{"t":6307,"text":"seeking and obtaining charge approval and moving through the system."},{"t":6311,"text":"But so much of what our members are doing with"},{"t":6313,"text":"do not necessarily doesn't necessarily meet that threshold or great"},{"t":6316,"text":"example is, um, simple possession of illicit drugs. Um, we"},{"t":6321,"text":"have all sorts of guidelines from crown. We have embedded"},{"t":6325,"text":"in our control drugs and substances act that we are"},{"t":6328,"text":"absolutely required to look at every alternative to introducing somebody"},{"t":6332,"text":"to the criminal justice system and requesting charges with respect"},{"t":6335,"text":"to simple possession. Do we have a problem with people"},{"t":6337,"text":"smoking drugs on the streets in Victoria? Yes, we do."},{"t":6341,"text":"Is the solution to arrest them and take them to"},{"t":6343,"text":"jail? No, it is not. Um, there's, there's options for"},{"t":6348,"text":"police to address that type of behaviour through arrest through"},{"t":6352,"text":"diversion, through, um, alternative options. Um, but the reality is"},{"t":6358,"text":"that has become a social challenge that's everyone's, um, challenge"},{"t":6363,"text":"to address. And it's, it comes back to that need"},{"t":6365,"text":"for us to all work together. Thank you for your"},{"t":6368,"text":"thoughtfulness. Thank you. Thank you, Councillor Coleman. Thank you. Thank"},{"t":6375,"text":"you. And through you, um, my thanks to the chief"},{"t":6378,"text":"for being here and the two deputies. Always appreciated. And"},{"t":6383,"text":"personal thanks to the chief. There have been three incidents"},{"t":6386,"text":"just recently that I've sent emails on, on community issues."},{"t":6390,"text":"And they've been, uh, responded to immediately. And they're all"},{"t":6394,"text":"works in process. But I appreciate it. Um, the first"},{"t":6399,"text":"question. We talk about your 284. Authorized strength number. And"},{"t":6408,"text":"there's some people who are on long - term visibility."},{"t":6412,"text":"There's a number of different components that come to it."},{"t":6415,"text":"The trauma with that is we assume that 284 is"},{"t":6419,"text":"the target number. Is that actually the number of officers"},{"t":6423,"text":"we need to properly look after both municipalities. We can"},{"t":6428,"text":"talk about division later. What's the number that we're actually"},{"t":6430,"text":"targeting. Please. Through the chair, that's a great question. And"},{"t":6435,"text":"that's why the resource allocation review is so critical because"},{"t":6437,"text":"that's exactly what it's going to tell us. I believe"},{"t":6440,"text":"that, uh, you're going to see, well, I know in"},{"t":6443,"text":"the report, you are going to see places where we"},{"t":6446,"text":"can have efficiencies. You may have to some decisions to"},{"t":6449,"text":"make around what you want from your police service. Are"},{"t":6454,"text":"those priority one response times that he sets out acceptable?"},{"t":6458,"text":"Would you like them? Are you okay with him being"},{"t":6460,"text":"a bit higher? Or are you, would you prefer them"},{"t":6461,"text":"to be a bit lower, for example? And you are"},{"t":6464,"text":"also going to get a really good sense of where"},{"t":6468,"text":"we need extra support. And all three of those things"},{"t":6471,"text":"will be illuminated for through the resource allocation review. And"},{"t":6475,"text":"it's one of the reasons why I'm really reticent to"},{"t":6478,"text":"make any significant resourcing decisions right now. Because I have"},{"t":6483,"text":"made a commitment to this council and certainly to the"},{"t":6486,"text":"township as well, that we will make data - driven"},{"t":6488,"text":"decisions. And that's what the RAR is going to give"},{"t":6491,"text":"us. Thank you for that. Let me push a bit,"},{"t":6495,"text":"if I could. How many officers of the authorized strength"},{"t":6500,"text":"are on the retirement bubble. Keith? Through the chair, that's"},{"t":6505,"text":"a great question. But interestingly, we kind of have the"},{"t":6507,"text":"opposite problem right now. Um, we have a"},{"t":6517,"text":"very, very junior police force. So one of the things"},{"t":6521,"text":"though, that we have, uh, that's been really successful, not"},{"t":6525,"text":"in terms of grand numbers, but in terms of the"},{"t":6526,"text":"people we've been able to bring back is that letter"},{"t":6530,"text":"of understanding we have with the union to allow retired,"},{"t":6533,"text":"qualified police officers to come back on contract. And they"},{"t":6537,"text":"go straight to the front line. There's no other option."},{"t":6539,"text":"So they are working patrol. We have three of those"},{"t":6542,"text":"members thus far. We have another one that's close to"},{"t":6545,"text":"completion. But they bring incredible wealth and knowledge to the"},{"t":6551,"text":"front line when we have such a junior, um, reality"},{"t":6555,"text":"in policing at Vic PD, and particularly in patrol, because"},{"t":6559,"text":"of course that's where everybody starts. So I'm not as"},{"t":6562,"text":"concerned about the people who are on the retirement bubble"},{"t":6565,"text":"as I am making sure those junior members, um, are"},{"t":6569,"text":"getting what they need in terms of mentorship, training, um,"},{"t":6573,"text":"and, uh, working with people who have more experience than"},{"t":6576,"text":"they do. Thank you for that. So then the 16"},{"t":6580,"text":"that we have coming into the fall accreditation in the"},{"t":6584,"text":"16 again, coming in the spring are not too deal"},{"t":6589,"text":"with retirement. They're actually about expanding the police force. Chief."},{"t":6595,"text":"Uh, Deputy McCray, do you have any, uh, insight on"},{"t":6597,"text":"the retirement numbers? Cause I'm not up to speed on"},{"t":6600,"text":"that right now. Definitely. Thank you through you, chair. In"},{"t":6605,"text":"2026, our retirement numbers were actually a little bit lower"},{"t":6608,"text":"than what we would have projected. Generally speaking, we are"},{"t":6611,"text":"predicting between 10 and 12 retirements per year, uh, for"},{"t":6615,"text":"the kind of last number of years as well as"},{"t":6618,"text":"the next few years. Um, we are, however, in 2026,"},{"t":6623,"text":"we were actually lower than that. I think we only"},{"t":6625,"text":"had eight retirements, thus far in 2026, which is a"},{"t":6627,"text":"little bit low for us. Um, I expect we will"},{"t":6630,"text":"be back into the numbers closer to 10 to 12,"},{"t":6633,"text":"uh, in the kind of the first quarter of 2027."},{"t":6638,"text":"So when you look at the number that we need"},{"t":6640,"text":"to replace, there's a number of positions as we've discussed"},{"t":6642,"text":"here today that are vacant already. So there's a number"},{"t":6646,"text":"of positions that are in seconded positions. So those need"},{"t":6648,"text":"to be replaced. And then of course, the number of"},{"t":6650,"text":"retirements. So it's no one thing. It's really a grouping"},{"t":6653,"text":"of those three things together that will ultimately those particular"},{"t":6657,"text":"resources that are being brought on board will then end"},{"t":6660,"text":"up replacing. Okay. Thank you for that. Um, so I"},{"t":6664,"text":"wonder it would be helpful for me perhaps for others"},{"t":6667,"text":"as we go through the assessments, could we get a"},{"t":6670,"text":"graph of authorized strength by division. So I think, uh,"},{"t":6676,"text":"the traffic we've talked about in the past and historically"},{"t":6679,"text":"we used to have 10 officers in that. I think"},{"t":6681,"text":"they're down to three or four. Um, so as we"},{"t":6684,"text":"move forward for our deliberations over budget, it would be"},{"t":6688,"text":"really helpful to say, this is where there are gaps."},{"t":6691,"text":"This is where, and it goes back to the notion"},{"t":6693,"text":"that we shouldn't be looking at 284 as the number."},{"t":6698,"text":"It's going to be higher. We may split with a"},{"t":6701,"text":"spine molt. We may not. I don't know what's going"},{"t":6703,"text":"to happen with that. But we're trying to resource you"},{"t":6705,"text":"properly. So, uh, certainly during the 2027 budget discussions, there"},{"t":6712,"text":"will be a presentation with respect to where resources are"},{"t":6718,"text":"allocated. Um, we tend to keep that at a pretty"},{"t":6720,"text":"high level in terms of the public. Um, only for"},{"t":6724,"text":"operational reasons. Um, however, we can get you that higher"},{"t":6728,"text":"level, um, information. However, I think really the key to"},{"t":6733,"text":"all of this is the resource allocation review because all"},{"t":6735,"text":"of that data will be included in that report. And"},{"t":6740,"text":"I think you'll find that there's information in there that"},{"t":6742,"text":"will absolutely assist your assessment with respect to what our"},{"t":6747,"text":"needs are. Thank you. So as we go through that"},{"t":6750,"text":"resource allocation, uh, it was referenced earlier about district 61."},{"t":6755,"text":"Where does missed play into that. Chief? Through the chair,"},{"t":6759,"text":"I'm going to defer to, uh, Deputy McRAY on this"},{"t":6762,"text":"one. Empty. Thank you through your chair. As you know,"},{"t":6766,"text":"VIC PD as well as all of the other lower"},{"t":6768,"text":"mainland or lower Vancouver island police agencies participate in missed."},{"t":6774,"text":"As far as the resource allocation review, I don't anticipate"},{"t":6777,"text":"or expect any changes relating to missed. I will say,"},{"t":6780,"text":"I think they have had again, and you've heard this,"},{"t":6783,"text":"I think, in the past some challenges retaining their councillor"},{"t":6786,"text":"that works directly with MIST and the funding specifically to"},{"t":6789,"text":"that. But that doesn't impact the commitment from the South"},{"t":6793,"text":"Island Police Agencies for having the police officer as part"},{"t":6796,"text":"of missed. Thank you. And thank you for your support"},{"t":6800,"text":"of missed and that Councillor, because I think they do"},{"t":6803,"text":"an outstanding work in a proactive sense not allowing young"},{"t":6809,"text":"people to get diverted into an area. We might not"},{"t":6812,"text":"like them being involved in. The last question I have"},{"t":6815,"text":"is, um, predicated on an incident that happened last week"},{"t":6820,"text":"in the ravine, just behind the burnside gorge community centre."},{"t":6826,"text":"And it was fortunately a rainy day because there was"},{"t":6829,"text":"a fire, um, lots of smoke. And the police response"},{"t":6834,"text":"was very quick. But the other responders had a difficult"},{"t":6842,"text":"time finding. Access to the area. And it's a borderline."},{"t":6847,"text":"So we were told by one of the adjacent neighbours"},{"t":6849,"text":"workers that, no, we can't respond to that because it's"},{"t":6853,"text":"not in, in our municipality. How do we deal with"},{"t":6857,"text":"those borderline issues, um, particularly when it could be crisis"},{"t":6861,"text":"mode. So it's how you work with other police forces,"},{"t":6865,"text":"but it's also the CRD, it's other parks and rec"},{"t":6868,"text":"departments, all that stuff. How is that done? So through"},{"t":6871,"text":"the chair, I can't speak for other agencies or other"},{"t":6874,"text":"departments, but what I can say is from a policing"},{"t":6876,"text":"perspective, that is seamless. We frequently work with our partners"},{"t":6880,"text":"who, you know, as you know, we've got this patchwork"},{"t":6882,"text":"of fleecing on the South Island. And it's nothing new."},{"t":6887,"text":"We constantly work with our partners very closely. We have"},{"t":6889,"text":"a radio channel that can be patched. In fact, we"},{"t":6891,"text":"took advantage of that just in a critical incident last"},{"t":6893,"text":"week. Um, so I can tell you that from a"},{"t":6897,"text":"policing perspective, much like what it sounds like your experience"},{"t":6900,"text":"was with respect to this incident. Um, we move in,"},{"t":6903,"text":"we deal with the issue. And then we sort out"},{"t":6905,"text":"the jurisdictional, um, uh, responsibility around that. And for policing,"},{"t":6911,"text":"it is very clear. Like we have jurisdictional boundaries where"},{"t":6914,"text":"we're responsible for and other agencies have their boundaries, that"},{"t":6919,"text":"they're responsible for. But, uh, the reality is we work"},{"t":6922,"text":"very, very closely together. In fact, I would say on"},{"t":6924,"text":"the South Island, we work more closely together here than"},{"t":6927,"text":"in any other area that I've, uh, had the pleasure"},{"t":6930,"text":"of working in throughout my almost 30 years of service."},{"t":6934,"text":"Thank you very much for that. And again, it's not"},{"t":6937,"text":"just that ravine area. It also applies to traffic interdiction"},{"t":6943,"text":"with people who have problems using, uh, auditory assists to"},{"t":6947,"text":"get through traffic area on those border streets that are"},{"t":6951,"text":"perhaps one municipality and another or different police forces. So"},{"t":6955,"text":"as long as that work can still be done seamlessly,"},{"t":6958,"text":"the public will be safer. Thank you. Thank you very"},{"t":6960,"text":"much, Councillor. Councillor Dell. Thank you so much for being"},{"t":6965,"text":"here to y'all. Um, through the mayor, just a couple"},{"t":6968,"text":"of quick questions for me. I've been working with the"},{"t":6971,"text":"downtown business community and restaurants a little bit about the"},{"t":6973,"text":"downtown foot patrol team. And the questions around a route"},{"t":6976,"text":"and timing. And I was wondering if you could just"},{"t":6978,"text":"clarify what time those officers are starting. Are they trying"},{"t":6982,"text":"to follow a route or that is responding to ad"},{"t":6985,"text":"hoc calls? Um, I think the, uh, folks looking for"},{"t":6988,"text":"a bit of assurance of when they will see these"},{"t":6990,"text":"people and what they can expect. And I'm not, I'm"},{"t":6992,"text":"not hearing that. They're getting that right now. So would"},{"t":6994,"text":"you be able to talk about that a little bit?"},{"t":6996,"text":"Chief. Through the chair. So, um, what I can tell"},{"t":6999,"text":"you about the foot patrol unit is that they have"},{"t":7001,"text":"staggered start times week over week. So they have one"},{"t":7005,"text":"week of a particular start time, a second week of"},{"t":7007,"text":"the next start time and the third week. And then"},{"t":7009,"text":"they rotate. And they do that so that they're covering"},{"t":7012,"text":"all sorts of different times of the day. I'm a"},{"t":7014,"text":"bit reluctant to, um, publicly talk about what those start"},{"t":7017,"text":"time and end times are just from an operational perspective."},{"t":7020,"text":"But I can tell you that their Monday to Friday."},{"t":7025,"text":"And they are often, you know, they'll start at some"},{"t":7029,"text":"points early in the morning. And then there will be"},{"t":7031,"text":"other weeks where they're out on the road later at"},{"t":7033,"text":"night. Um, we do that intentionally because we don't want"},{"t":7037,"text":"to have a routine, um, that, that everybody can get"},{"t":7042,"text":"to understand and know. And I understand the downside of"},{"t":7044,"text":"that for businesses, for example. But I can't tell you"},{"t":7047,"text":"that the schedule was determined to make sure that some"},{"t":7050,"text":"weeks they are available before businesses open so that they"},{"t":7054,"text":"can facilitate assisting those businesses if they have somebody who's"},{"t":7057,"text":"sleeping in the doorway, for example, um, they, you know,"},{"t":7060,"text":"they'll walk around the downtown core especially and sort of"},{"t":7064,"text":"check those businesses before they open. But then the other"},{"t":7066,"text":"circumstances, um, where in the evenings, um, they are available"},{"t":7072,"text":"as well, uh, for a variety of reasons. We also"},{"t":7076,"text":"have, um, as you well know, and this council supported"},{"t":7079,"text":"so strongly last year, the C - step funding, um,"},{"t":7084,"text":"with your infusion of assistance with that funding. So provincial"},{"t":7088,"text":"C - step funding. That facilitates additional foot patrols throughout"},{"t":7092,"text":"the downtown core. And so there and their hours are"},{"t":7096,"text":"very diswell. And we do that very purposely to make"},{"t":7099,"text":"sure that, um, at different times of the day and"},{"t":7101,"text":"different times of the week. And that C - step,"},{"t":7103,"text":"um, those C - step patrols are often, um, dedicated"},{"t":7107,"text":"to weekends, um, simply because we want to make sure"},{"t":7110,"text":"we have seven days of coverage with foot patrol. So,"},{"t":7113,"text":"um, does that answer your question, councillor? Yeah, that does."},{"t":7117,"text":"Thank you so much. Um, through the chair follow -"},{"t":7120,"text":"up question. So are you able to share then how"},{"t":7121,"text":"many offices are out at any given time when the"},{"t":7124,"text":"shifts are happening? I've definitely seen groups of two walking."},{"t":7127,"text":"Although I spend a lot of time downtown and also"},{"t":7129,"text":"don't see, don't see many at all, probably because I'm"},{"t":7131,"text":"just not in the right areas, but is the goal?"},{"t":7133,"text":"Like how many would you officers would you want to"},{"t":7136,"text":"ideally have walking downtown, walking the beat in pairs. On"},{"t":7140,"text":"an average given day? Is it is two enough for"},{"t":7143,"text":"you? Are there more than that? And what would you"},{"t":7145,"text":"like to see? Chief. Through the chair, so I'm reluctant"},{"t":7148,"text":"to talk about the numbers, our deployment numbers in this"},{"t":7151,"text":"city. But what I can tell you specific to the"},{"t":7152,"text":"foot patrol unit, um, is that, uh, there are certainly"},{"t":7158,"text":"more than two out at any given time, particularly with"},{"t":7161,"text":"C - step as well. Um, the team is, uh,"},{"t":7165,"text":"eight people. And they are, um, they are deployed throughout"},{"t":7172,"text":"their shift. And that's in addition to the C -"},{"t":7179,"text":"step foot patrol members that you would see out and"},{"t":7182,"text":"about as well. And quite frankly, it's in addition to"},{"t":7183,"text":"our patrol members. Um, we often have patrol members who"},{"t":7187,"text":"will choose to get out and walk on foot. Depending"},{"t":7190,"text":"on what the call load looks like and their area"},{"t":7192,"text":"of responsibility as opposed to getting in a car. And"},{"t":7195,"text":"that is not unusual. So there may be days when"},{"t":7198,"text":"you, and then of course we have our two bylaw"},{"t":7199,"text":"dedicated as officers as well. So there is no time"},{"t":7203,"text":"in this city where I would expect there are only"},{"t":7205,"text":"two police officers out walking on foot. I don't want"},{"t":7208,"text":"to give an exact number, but I can tell you"},{"t":7210,"text":"it's, it's certainly many more than that. Councillor deal. Okay."},{"t":7215,"text":"Thank you so much. I'm just jumping around quickly here."},{"t":7217,"text":"Um, can you just talk quickly about the late night"},{"t":7219,"text":"team and how the late night team has been working?"},{"t":7222,"text":"Is that still going? Has there been any trends at"},{"t":7224,"text":"the beginning of our term when you weren't here the"},{"t":7226,"text":"late night team was a really kind of hot topic"},{"t":7227,"text":"essentially. Uh, it was a big push from Vic Vic"},{"t":7230,"text":"Beauty to fund the late night team. I believe we"},{"t":7232,"text":"have permanent funding for it now. I haven't heard much"},{"t":7234,"text":"about it all. So what's going on with that team"},{"t":7236,"text":"and is are there any trends. I guess also speaking"},{"t":7238,"text":"to one of the trends we see also is that"},{"t":7240,"text":"people aren't drinking anymore. Our bar owners are coming to"},{"t":7242,"text":"us and venues going, what's happening? No one's buying alcohol,"},{"t":7245,"text":"which is a big difference probably when many, os were"},{"t":7247,"text":"young in alcohol was out of control. So can you"},{"t":7249,"text":"talk about the late night team to sub, give us"},{"t":7251,"text":"an update? So through the chair, maybe I'll just address"},{"t":7254,"text":"the alcohol piece first. And then I'd like to turn"},{"t":7256,"text":"it over to Deputy McRAY with respect to late night"},{"t":7259,"text":"team. Um, one of the things that I found really"},{"t":7261,"text":"interesting participating in Canada day celebrations is that all of"},{"t":7265,"text":"my members were telling me about how Canada Day used"},{"t":7269,"text":"to be a real dust up here in Victoria many,"},{"t":7271,"text":"many years ago pre COVID. And we've actually reduced our"},{"t":7277,"text":"deployment numbers on Canada day. And I was asking questions"},{"t":7280,"text":"about that. Obviously. Why are we deploying so many fewer"},{"t":7284,"text":"members now don't get me wrong. There's still a massive"},{"t":7287,"text":"number of members who are out on Canada day. Um,"},{"t":7289,"text":"but relatively speaking, it used to be apparently almost the"},{"t":7293,"text":"entire uniform officers in the department were deployed on Canada"},{"t":7297,"text":"Day. In fact, I had an inspector who told me"},{"t":7300,"text":"she's never had a candidate day off and she's worked"},{"t":7303,"text":"for Vic PD for well over two and a half"},{"t":7305,"text":"decades. So when we were out on Canada day, uh,"},{"t":7309,"text":"Deputy MUCRA and I were both out on, on foot"},{"t":7311,"text":"for the day and for the, through the evening. And"},{"t":7314,"text":"we noticed it was such a fabulous family friendly affair."},{"t":7318,"text":"We had almost no incidents at Vic PD. Um, and"},{"t":7321,"text":"I think it's as a product of people simply not"},{"t":7323,"text":"drinking to the extent that they used to. So we've"},{"t":7325,"text":"really noticed that as well, which has been really quite"},{"t":7328,"text":"lovely. But I'll pass it over to Deputy McCray to"},{"t":7330,"text":"speak about late night. Thank you through your chair. Great"},{"t":7335,"text":"question. Uh, late night task force has been something that,"},{"t":7338,"text":"as you know, we've discussed a lot here in this"},{"t":7341,"text":"room. Uh, and remains, and I want to be clear"},{"t":7344,"text":"an essential part of our deployment. Without going into the"},{"t":7348,"text":"exact generally speaking our late night task force throughout two"},{"t":7351,"text":"days a week, uh, two nights a week during FIFA,"},{"t":7355,"text":"there were some times where we found great value in"},{"t":7357,"text":"having them particularly for those 9 PM games. So those"},{"t":7360,"text":"later start games that, um, uh, generated some audience and"},{"t":7366,"text":"a number of people in restaurants and bars that maybe"},{"t":7368,"text":"wouldn't have been there that late in the evening. Uh,"},{"t":7371,"text":"on a normal day. We continue to see an advantage"},{"t":7375,"text":"from those because while we overall, maybe there is less"},{"t":7379,"text":"people drinking. We do know that nightclubs and bars still"},{"t":7382,"text":"tend to be very busy. And those late hours. It"},{"t":7385,"text":"is something that we continue to, uh, observe. It's continue"},{"t":7388,"text":"to see. And having that presence and that intervention before"},{"t":7392,"text":"things go sideways is really the goal of the late"},{"t":7395,"text":"night task force. And we continue to have great benefit"},{"t":7399,"text":"from that. And I wouldn't look to change that or"},{"t":7401,"text":"adjust that at this point in time. Okay. Thank you."},{"t":7405,"text":"Two more quick areas to jump around with, I would"},{"t":7407,"text":"like to ask how much a community survey is costing"},{"t":7409,"text":"Vic PD. I think it's a great survey, but I"},{"t":7411,"text":"will tell you my own perspective is that from being"},{"t":7413,"text":"here for four years, it comes back with the same"},{"t":7415,"text":"information as we support Vic PDA. We want to see"},{"t":7418,"text":"more Vic PD. To me, it's the same as a"},{"t":7421,"text":"survey from say the fire department of, of course, we"},{"t":7423,"text":"want the fire department to reduce fires or from my"},{"t":7426,"text":"schools, like teach my kids. I don't need to get"},{"t":7427,"text":"in the details. So you guys know you're the professionals."},{"t":7431,"text":"You have a wide range of expertise. You know what"},{"t":7433,"text":"needs to be done in the city. You know every"},{"t":7434,"text":"year it's the same thing. More visibility tackling crime. So"},{"t":7438,"text":"I'm wondering why the money is spent on it and"},{"t":7439,"text":"how much is spent on that, uh, that survey. And"},{"t":7443,"text":"if you, if you think it's necessary, knowing it keeps"},{"t":7445,"text":"coming back with the same amount, same thing. Chief. Thank"},{"t":7449,"text":"you for the question through the chair. We actually took"},{"t":7451,"text":"a different approach to the community survey this year. Um,"},{"t":7454,"text":"and I'm wondering if I could put direct or parton"},{"t":7456,"text":"on this spot. To come and speak to it. And"},{"t":7460,"text":"she could give you some details because it was administered"},{"t":7462,"text":"through our community engagement team. And she was overseeing that."},{"t":7468,"text":"We may not have the exact numbers for you, Councillor"},{"t":7471,"text":"Dell. However, director PANTEN could talk a little bit about"},{"t":7474,"text":"what we did this year with respect to the community"},{"t":7476,"text":"survey. Thank you, Chaport through the chair. Um, thank you"},{"t":7479,"text":"for the question. So this year we spent 8, 000"},{"t":7481,"text":"dollars on our community survey, which is which was a"},{"t":7484,"text":"significant reduction to what we spent previously. Um, typically we've"},{"t":7488,"text":"done a direct mail approach. And that cost anywhere between"},{"t":7491,"text":"15 and 17, 000 dollars. So we did partner with"},{"t":7494,"text":"research and company and I'm happy to provide some of"},{"t":7496,"text":"those results. Uh, we also changed some of the questions"},{"t":7499,"text":"that we asked the community. And I'm also happy to"},{"t":7502,"text":"provide those to you as well. Okay. That's great. I"},{"t":7505,"text":"mean, 8, 000 dollars actually, that sounds reasonable. Sorry. I"},{"t":7508,"text":"thought it was a lot more than that. Um, knowing"},{"t":7510,"text":"just how much this costs. So my very last question"},{"t":7512,"text":"is how many officers exactly was pulled from the Vancouver"},{"t":7515,"text":"Island integrated, um, major crime unit. And is there a"},{"t":7519,"text":"risk that that unit might collapse without Victoria in that"},{"t":7522,"text":"unit? Chief. Through the chair, thank you for the question."},{"t":7525,"text":"So there were five sworn members and one civilian member"},{"t":7528,"text":"who have been, and they, to be clear, they haven't"},{"t":7531,"text":"been pulled. We've given notice as required under the MOU,"},{"t":7535,"text":"um, to the signatories, uh, FORMQ, including the RCMP, that"},{"t":7540,"text":"we intend to withdraw from VIMQ. Under the MOU, it's"},{"t":7543,"text":"a required 30 days. However, understanding that these are complex"},{"t":7547,"text":"investigations that those members are engaged in files that are"},{"t":7552,"text":"very, very high priority. I proposed a date of October"},{"t":7556,"text":"1st, um, to bring them back to, uh, Vic PD"},{"t":7560,"text":"with an understanding that even that may need to be"},{"t":7564,"text":"discussed. And I entirely understand the need to be flexible"},{"t":7570,"text":"and reasonable. But I'm not familiar with exactly what they're"},{"t":7573,"text":"working on. So we'll have to sort that out. So"},{"t":7576,"text":"it's five sworn resources and one civilian. And, uh, speaking"},{"t":7582,"text":"to Deputy Commissioner McDonald, I don't have any, um, belief"},{"t":7588,"text":"that VimQ is under any threat of folding. It's not"},{"t":7592,"text":"for me to speak to that. However, through our conversations,"},{"t":7598,"text":"I certainly did not get the sense that there was"},{"t":7601,"text":"any, um, dramatic concern about Vic PD's decision to withdraw."},{"t":7608,"text":"It simply means that they are not responsible for taking"},{"t":7610,"text":"homicides that occur in Victorian a squimault. So of course"},{"t":7613,"text":"it lightens their load. And they can focus on homicides"},{"t":7618,"text":"in other jurisdictions that they're responsible for. Councillor. Uh, okay."},{"t":7624,"text":"Thank you so much for all this questions. I'll leave"},{"t":7626,"text":"it there, but I appreciate you coming in and also"},{"t":7628,"text":"welcome to the for the new Deputy's for coming to"},{"t":7630,"text":"Victoria. We're definitely very happy to have you here. And"},{"t":7632,"text":"I'd love to learn more about you at some point"},{"t":7634,"text":"in the future. Thanks. Thank you very much. Uh, everyone"},{"t":7637,"text":"has had a fairly fulsome opportunity to ask questions. Thank"},{"t":7641,"text":"you for your patience. Councillor Kim is indicated that she"},{"t":7643,"text":"has one follow - up question. As does Councillor Loton."},{"t":7647,"text":"Um, thank you. Through the chair, uh, there was a"},{"t":7650,"text":"question posed about the accessibility of the board meetings. And"},{"t":7655,"text":"in real time, I've had two people reply back to"},{"t":7659,"text":"me digitally saying last night's board meeting. Yeah. So I"},{"t":7663,"text":"just, just flagging that and can you speak to that"},{"t":7666,"text":"so that we can clear the air. Thank you. Chief."},{"t":7669,"text":"Through the chair. Thank you so much for raising that"},{"t":7671,"text":"because you reminded me that last night they had technical"},{"t":7674,"text":"challenges that we do not anticipate will happen on a"},{"t":7677,"text":"regular basis. Um, we have insured that, uh, we have"},{"t":7684,"text":"the right resources in place to live stream the meetings"},{"t":7687,"text":"moving forward last night was such an anomaly. And it"},{"t":7690,"text":"was so ironic because we had this wholesome discussion about"},{"t":7693,"text":"wanting to make sure that those meetings, uh, we're live"},{"t":7697,"text":"streamed that the public had access. Um, and, uh, unfortunately"},{"t":7702,"text":"last night was just a technical, um, sorry, it was"},{"t":7706,"text":"Tuesday night actually was, uh, they had some significant technical"},{"t":7710,"text":"problems, but we do not anticipate that being an issue"},{"t":7713,"text":"moving forward. But thank you for raising it so I"},{"t":7715,"text":"could clarify that. Was it? Councillor Loughton. You have one"},{"t":7719,"text":"follow - up question. Yeah. Thanks to you, Mayor. It's"},{"t":7722,"text":"actually just a comment about the numbers. Of people sheltering."},{"t":7727,"text":"So I just wanted to note that, uh, last week"},{"t":7729,"text":"we had an update on the community safety and wellbeing"},{"t":7731,"text":"planned. So the sheltering, the numbers of shelters and parks"},{"t":7734,"text":"have gone down. Uh, we have housed 75 people using"},{"t":7744,"text":"our relocation coordinator. And the retention rates are very high."},{"t":7748,"text":"I don't have the actual numbers for that. But that's"},{"t":7751,"text":"also a really important note. So I just wanted to"},{"t":7754,"text":"add that to this conversation. Thanks, Mayor. Thank you very"},{"t":7756,"text":"much. Any other final question. I think we've kept you"},{"t":7761,"text":"long enough. Yes, Councillor Gardner, one last time. Thank you"},{"t":7765,"text":"very much for your presentation and regarding statistics and operational"},{"t":7769,"text":"performance system is what you've got in play and which"},{"t":7772,"text":"is wonderful. And I just don't want you consuming too"},{"t":7777,"text":"much funding trying to educate everybody else. I think it's"},{"t":7780,"text":"going to be very, did you really do, you should"},{"t":7782,"text":"be again trying to make some of the language simple"},{"t":7785,"text":"for people, but it's really not your duty to educate"},{"t":7788,"text":"us on stats courses. So I just wanted to say,"},{"t":7792,"text":"please don't expend too much on that. But I understand"},{"t":7794,"text":"that when you come back with your study, that would"},{"t":7796,"text":"be a great time right then to explain a lot."},{"t":7800,"text":"Um, but thank you very much. And I think that"},{"t":7803,"text":"study you're doing will be most useful. Cause operational performance"},{"t":7807,"text":"systems, which is really what you're talking about so you"},{"t":7809,"text":"can get your targets and you can have everything. And"},{"t":7812,"text":"the weighted data, that's very routine. And I'm so glad"},{"t":7815,"text":"that you are actually taking a very, very, uh, mathematical,"},{"t":7820,"text":"uh, statistical approach to it. That's the only way to"},{"t":7824,"text":"come back just the anecdotal. And so I very much"},{"t":7827,"text":"appreciate that. Thank you. Thank you very much. I didn't"},{"t":7832,"text":"do the last thoughts. Many questions have been asked of"},{"t":7835,"text":"you. I actually have only one. Uh, the impact withdrawal"},{"t":7840,"text":"from BIMQ. Does that mean that in an exceptional circumstance"},{"t":7844,"text":"that you would not respond to your colleagues and other"},{"t":7848,"text":"jurisdictions should they need our help. Through you, Mayor, absolutely"},{"t":7855,"text":"not. There's, we would always step up to help our"},{"t":7859,"text":"colleagues, um, when there is a significant public safety concern."},{"t":7864,"text":"And we will continue to work with VimQ and enjoy"},{"t":7868,"text":"the strong collaborative relationship we've had with them and with"},{"t":7870,"text":"the RCMP moving forward. This decision was strictly in the"},{"t":7876,"text":"best interest of Victorian Esquimalt for Vic PD. It was"},{"t":7880,"text":"not about lack of, um, uh, fantastic relationship that we've"},{"t":7886,"text":"had with VimQ or any sort of dissatisfaction with the"},{"t":7890,"text":"service that they provided over the years. The reality is"},{"t":7893,"text":"there was a number of factors that were under consideration,"},{"t":7898,"text":"including our homicide rate. And when you consider that we"},{"t":7900,"text":"have one to two homicides on average a year. And"},{"t":7904,"text":"five sworn resources and one civilian resource dedicated to that."},{"t":7910,"text":"You know, that really played a factor. You have asked"},{"t":7912,"text":"me to consider efficiencies at Vic PDE. And that is"},{"t":7917,"text":"exactly what I'm doing. So difficult decision for sure. And"},{"t":7921,"text":"not one that everybody is thrilled about. Um, however, I"},{"t":7924,"text":"can tell you that it's the right decision for Vic"},{"t":7927,"text":"PD and for the communities of Victoria and Desquimal. Thank"},{"t":7932,"text":"you for that. I asked you that obviously purposefully, because"},{"t":7934,"text":"I wanted to make sure that the message was clear"},{"t":7937,"text":"that the relationships that you have built with the various"},{"t":7940,"text":"services around the South Island, while they may have been"},{"t":7944,"text":"in the past coordinated by a particular agreement, they in"},{"t":7947,"text":"no way represent the commitment that I know all the"},{"t":7949,"text":"services have to one another should an emergency arise. So"},{"t":7952,"text":"I think it's important for people to realise that VimHube"},{"t":7955,"text":"may not any longer or soon. Be part of the"},{"t":7958,"text":"Vic PD family, but the need for the collaboration obviously"},{"t":7962,"text":"will continue. Welcome. Deputy Hiltz. Thank you, Deputy McRae, for"},{"t":7970,"text":"your continuing years of service. We know how critical they"},{"t":7972,"text":"are and your experiences untold. I'm much appreciated all that"},{"t":7976,"text":"you bring to the table. Thank you, Chief, as well."},{"t":7980,"text":"Uh, there is perhaps no better. Recognition of the enormous"},{"t":7984,"text":"depth of the Vic PD. And this review sitting there."},{"t":7988,"text":"And the fact that you who spent the last two"},{"t":7990,"text":"and a half hours with us showing a little bit,"},{"t":7994,"text":"just a little bit of what that is by taking"},{"t":7996,"text":"the time to explain to the public who ultimately are"},{"t":8000,"text":"paying for your services and benefiting from them. Is really"},{"t":8005,"text":"important and extremely valued. We thank you for your time"},{"t":8008,"text":"and look forward to the next opportunity, which I think"},{"t":8011,"text":"we will make sure is a little sooner than perhaps"},{"t":8013,"text":"the gap that existed since the last time you were"},{"t":8015,"text":"here. Good luck. Thank you for your service and we'll"},{"t":8018,"text":"talk with you all soon. Thank you so much everyone."},{"t":8022,"text":"With that, we will move on to the first of"},{"t":8024,"text":"our two staff reports. This is item G1 on our"},{"t":8027,"text":"agenda. That's right. Uh, this is a report back on"},{"t":8032,"text":"strategies and resources to require cooling, uh, in Victoria's rental"},{"t":8036,"text":"buildings. This is a verbal report back. I understand from"},{"t":8040,"text":"his husband and various staff members. So we'll let you"},{"t":8042,"text":"all get settled. And, uh, and then over to you"},{"t":8045,"text":"to make your presentation and we'll go to questions depending"},{"t":8048,"text":"upon what your presentation can taint. And please do remind"},{"t":8053,"text":"us of your colleagues just so that we don't error"},{"t":8056,"text":"and our recognition."},{"t":8070,"text":"Good morning, Mayor Alto and Council. I am Andrea Hudson,"},{"t":8075,"text":"the assistant director of Citywide Planning. With me today, uh,"},{"t":8079,"text":"is Ross Howard, our manager of housing, sitting next to"},{"t":8082,"text":"me. And at the far end of the table, we"},{"t":8084,"text":"have Chris Moore, our senior energy specialist. So, uh, Council,"},{"t":8092,"text":"we are here today in response to direction that you"},{"t":8096,"text":"gave us at the May 28th Council meeting where you"},{"t":8100,"text":"asked us to explore tools available to the city to"},{"t":8105,"text":"adopt a bylaw or to modify an existing bylaw that"},{"t":8109,"text":"requires existing rental units to have cooling equipment or that"},{"t":8113,"text":"prevents at least one room of the unit from exceeding"},{"t":8117,"text":"26 degrees Celsius. You also asked us to liaise with"},{"t":8121,"text":"the City of New Westminster to understand how their bylaw"},{"t":8126,"text":"works. And you also asked us to write a letter"},{"t":8129,"text":"to the Minister of Housing to request clarification and confirmation"},{"t":8135,"text":"that these types of upgrades would not trigger evictions or"},{"t":8139,"text":"rent increases. Um, so on behalf of Council, the mayor's"},{"t":8144,"text":"office sent a letter to the minister of housing earlier"},{"t":8147,"text":"this week on this matter. Given the growing risk of"},{"t":8154,"text":"major heat events as a result of climate change, uh,"},{"t":8158,"text":"the BC building code was recently updated, as you all"},{"t":8161,"text":"know. It requires at least one living space in each"},{"t":8165,"text":"dwelling unit to be able to maintain a temperature of"},{"t":8168,"text":"not more than 26 degrees Celsius. And the reason that"},{"t":8174,"text":"26 degrees was chosen is because health authorities have advised"},{"t":8178,"text":"that prolonged exposure to indoor temperatures above 26 degrees starts"},{"t":8183,"text":"to pose health risks for vulnerable populations. Uh, and then"},{"t":8188,"text":"when temperatures rise, even higher above 31 degrees, that can"},{"t":8192,"text":"actually become dangerous for vulnerable populations. With climate warming suites"},{"t":8198,"text":"are projected to experience nearly twice as many hours over"},{"t":8203,"text":"26 degrees in the coming decades. And so this building"},{"t":8207,"text":"code change is a very positive step forward, but it"},{"t":8210,"text":"only applies to new buildings and doesn't address existing rental"},{"t":8213,"text":"buildings in the city. So since receiving this Council direction,"},{"t":8220,"text":"uh, staff have undertaken some preliminary research and we've engaged"},{"t":8224,"text":"with staff at the City of New Westminster, the provincial"},{"t":8227,"text":"residential tenancy branch, local health authorities, including island health and"},{"t":8233,"text":"the BC Centre for Disease Control. Staff have also reached"},{"t":8237,"text":"out to other organisations that represent tenants and landlords, including"},{"t":8242,"text":"landlord BC, and together against poverty society as well as"},{"t":8247,"text":"multiple climate organisations. There is a growing body of research"},{"t":8253,"text":"documenting overheating risks and guidance that's provided around municipal tools"},{"t":8259,"text":"to help mitigate overheating in rental homes. It's a very"},{"t":8263,"text":"complex matter. Um, this is a topic that intersects community"},{"t":8267,"text":"health and housing and climate. And there are different roles"},{"t":8272,"text":"for various levels of government. And the private sector to"},{"t":8275,"text":"play around this. So, um, with respect to our preliminary"},{"t":8283,"text":"research, the City of New Westminster chose a two -"},{"t":8286,"text":"step approach in its efforts to regulate indoor temperature through"},{"t":8290,"text":"a bylaw. Uh, in May of 2025, it introduced language"},{"t":8295,"text":"to prohibit landlords from prohibiting cooling devices. And then earlier"},{"t":8299,"text":"this year in April of 2026, they added a maximum"},{"t":8303,"text":"temperature requirement of 26 degrees for one room in a"},{"t":8307,"text":"rental home. New SminSTER uses a rental business licensing bylaw,"},{"t":8314,"text":"and they enforce their by - allow primarily through a"},{"t":8316,"text":"complaints - driven process, undertaken by Bylaw officers and building"},{"t":8321,"text":"inspectors. In other municipalities, Vancouver is currently exploring options and"},{"t":8328,"text":"will be reporting back to their council on how to"},{"t":8331,"text":"ensure no prohibition of cooling devices. And also will be"},{"t":8336,"text":"writing an advocacy letter to the province to amend the"},{"t":8339,"text":"Vancouver Charter, which is there enabling legislation to allow them"},{"t":8344,"text":"to permit regulation of overheating and rental units. Nanaimo requires"},{"t":8351,"text":"that secondary suites have cooling equipment capable of maintaining indoor"},{"t":8356,"text":"air temperature of not more than 26 degrees in at"},{"t":8358,"text":"least one living space. And Port Moody is also exploring"},{"t":8362,"text":"options to ensure no prohibition of cooling devices. So as"},{"t":8368,"text":"far as tools that we can use, municipalities and British"},{"t":8372,"text":"Columbia that wish to establish general CARE and maintenance requirements"},{"t":8376,"text":"for residential rental homes can do so through the use"},{"t":8381,"text":"of a standards of maintenance, Vyla. These types of bylaws"},{"t":8385,"text":"will vary somewhat from municipality to municipality, but essentially standards"},{"t":8390,"text":"of maintenance bylaws are the most appropriate legislative tool that"},{"t":8394,"text":"municipalities can use to introduce regulations to over - address"},{"t":8399,"text":"heating in residential rental homes and council, as you know,"},{"t":8404,"text":"the City of Victoria has this type of bylaw already"},{"t":8407,"text":"in place. Ours is called The Rental Property Standards of"},{"t":8410,"text":"Maine and Spylaw. It was created in 2020, and it"},{"t":8414,"text":"establishes minimum standards of maintenance for rental units and residential"},{"t":8420,"text":"properties in Victoria to protect the health and safety of"},{"t":8424,"text":"tenants and existing rental stock. And our bylaw is administered"},{"t":8428,"text":"by our tenant assistance planner, and its enforced through the"},{"t":8433,"text":"provincial residential tenancy branch with support provided by the city"},{"t":8437,"text":"when needed. And the bylaw in its current form requires"},{"t":8442,"text":"heating systems, but it does not address cooling. So as"},{"t":8449,"text":"far as potential solutions, um, our research on this topic"},{"t":8452,"text":"indicates there are generally three policy approaches aimed at addressing"},{"t":8458,"text":"overheating that could be implemented individually or in some kind"},{"t":8462,"text":"of combination. The first approach is in the spirit of"},{"t":8466,"text":"removing barriers, and it would ensure that no landlord could"},{"t":8471,"text":"prohibit or prevent a tenant from using a portable device"},{"t":8474,"text":"designed to cool internal temperatures and a rental unit. The"},{"t":8479,"text":"proviso with this is that, um, the residential tendency act"},{"t":8483,"text":"would allow a landlord to ban cooling devices if they"},{"t":8487,"text":"can show that there would be safety or building issues"},{"t":8491,"text":"with having air conditioning units, uh, but otherwise the barrier"},{"t":8494,"text":"would be removed. Um, the second approach is also in"},{"t":8499,"text":"the spirit of removing barriers where, um, we could ensure"},{"t":8502,"text":"that buildings or dwellings, um, cooling devices or systems are"},{"t":8508,"text":"already in existence. Uh, that they simply be properly maintained"},{"t":8512,"text":"and in good working condition. And these two approaches are,"},{"t":8515,"text":"um, aligned with the residential tendency act. And this is"},{"t":8518,"text":"a potential solution that Victoria could take through amendments to"},{"t":8522,"text":"our rental property standards of maintenance bylaw. Uh, the third"},{"t":8529,"text":"approach that could be taken, um, is more complex. And"},{"t":8532,"text":"it would involve imposing new requirements for existing buildings. And"},{"t":8536,"text":"as I mentioned in our previous slide, other local governments"},{"t":8540,"text":"have addressed this in different ways. Some have removed barriers"},{"t":8544,"text":"to cooling while others have actually introduced a maximum temperature"},{"t":8548,"text":"requirement. There are many things that would need to be"},{"t":8551,"text":"considered with imposing requirements. There are technical considerations for buildings."},{"t":8558,"text":"Uh, as you know, there's a range of building types"},{"t":8560,"text":"and ages throughout Victoria. So electrical impacts and electrical capacities"},{"t":8566,"text":"would need to be considered. There would be economic impacts"},{"t":8571,"text":"for building owners if they were required to do significant"},{"t":8574,"text":"system retrofits. And they would need time to prepare. While"},{"t":8579,"text":"cooling would, um, support tenant health, um, we would also"},{"t":8583,"text":"need to consider other impacts on tenants like potential rent"},{"t":8587,"text":"increases or how building system upgrades could affect or interrupt"},{"t":8593,"text":"their tendencies. Uh, and as I mentioned, we have sent"},{"t":8596,"text":"the letter to the Minister of housing on these matters,"},{"t":8600,"text":"um, and have also reached out to staff at the"},{"t":8601,"text":"residential tenancy branch, but there is more, I think, to"},{"t":8604,"text":"learn and consider around this. Um, an enforcement approach would"},{"t":8608,"text":"also need to be considered along with resource impacts. And,"},{"t":8611,"text":"uh, there are many people in organisations in our community"},{"t":8614,"text":"that would be affected by this. So, uh, engagement would"},{"t":8617,"text":"also be recommended. So again, many considers to balance and"},{"t":8621,"text":"more work that would need to be done with that."},{"t":8624,"text":"So as far as next step, the city could start"},{"t":8628,"text":"by removing barriers to cooling equipment. And this is something"},{"t":8631,"text":"that we could easily initiate now. In our initial conversations"},{"t":8635,"text":"with, uh, organisations particularly landlord BC, there was support for"},{"t":8640,"text":"removing barriers. And, um, if we did do that, the"},{"t":8644,"text":"city could spend the winter communicating any updates to our"},{"t":8648,"text":"rental property standards of maintenance by law, um, landlords and"},{"t":8652,"text":"tenants. And we could continue to monitor and observe other"},{"t":8656,"text":"jurisdictions in order to better understand implications and resource impacts,"},{"t":8661,"text":"and as well as opportunities for requiring cooling. So Council,"},{"t":8665,"text":"if you are interested in removing barriers to cooling equipment,"},{"t":8668,"text":"we have provided a recommendation today where staff could report"},{"t":8673,"text":"back to you with a written report that considers amendments"},{"t":8677,"text":"to our rental property standards of maintenance bylaw. Uh, that"},{"t":8681,"text":"would ensure no prohibition of portable cooling devices and rental"},{"t":8684,"text":"units and ensure that where cooling systems exist that they"},{"t":8688,"text":"are properly maintained. Council, if you elected to do that,"},{"t":8692,"text":"we could come back to with a more detailed report"},{"t":8695,"text":"on what amendments would be needed. Um, and we would"},{"t":8699,"text":"need to do some more thinking about what those amendments"},{"t":8701,"text":"would look like in particular. Today's verbal report back is"},{"t":8704,"text":"very high level. Um, so we would suggest coming back"},{"t":8707,"text":"to with some more details on this. And also in"},{"t":8711,"text":"this recommendation, we would suggest that we continue monitoring other"},{"t":8715,"text":"jurisdictions to see how others bylaws are working. So that"},{"t":8719,"text":"concludes our summary on what we've learned so far. And,"},{"t":8722,"text":"uh, happy to take any questions. Thank you very much,"},{"t":8725,"text":"Dr. Hossen. I am aware that, uh, a Council Member"},{"t":8729,"text":"has a motion arising, which looks very similar to this."},{"t":8732,"text":"So after we deal with any questions, I will pose"},{"t":8734,"text":"the question as to whether or not this is close"},{"t":8737,"text":"enough or whether they wish to propose what I understand"},{"t":8741,"text":"that they have ready to go. But let us first"},{"t":8743,"text":"start with questions. Questions. Councillor Dell. And then Council Cardinals."},{"t":8749,"text":"Cheryl, I'll just say I had the motion arising, which"},{"t":8751,"text":"I wrote and somehow you wrote the exact same motion"},{"t":8753,"text":"rising. So I'm very happy about that. I don't need"},{"t":8755,"text":"to get, I don't need to have my motion to"},{"t":8756,"text":"rising here. Uh, that's great. Um, this is, this is"},{"t":8760,"text":"perfect. Thank you very much for all this work. Um,"},{"t":8762,"text":"it's an issue. It raises for me is around jurisdiction"},{"t":8765,"text":"of the 13 municipalities and it's an issue where it's"},{"t":8767,"text":"like if Victoria is one of 13 is tackling, uh,"},{"t":8771,"text":"keeping renters cool. But one block over, uh, renters are"},{"t":8774,"text":"at risk. It doesn't, doesn't make sense. It doesn't make"},{"t":8777,"text":"me feel good. Have you talked at all to any"},{"t":8779,"text":"of the other municipalities or the CRD? It does seem"},{"t":8781,"text":"like something that, that where the CRD could be involved"},{"t":8784,"text":"to ensure we're working as a region or is this"},{"t":8786,"text":"something that really Victoria would just do on our own"},{"t":8788,"text":"and, and other municipalities possibly with smaller research teams would"},{"t":8792,"text":"have to figure it out. Cause I think we do"},{"t":8793,"text":"have an interest in ensuring the safety of everyone in"},{"t":8796,"text":"the entire region as well. So comment on any relation"},{"t":8798,"text":"to other municipalities in the CRD. Dirt Hudson. To the"},{"t":8804,"text":"mayor. We haven't spoken with any of our neighbouring municipalities"},{"t":8809,"text":"at this point. We certainly could do that to see"},{"t":8811,"text":"if they're considering anything, um, I guess given our rental"},{"t":8815,"text":"property standards of maintenance by that is very specific to"},{"t":8817,"text":"Victoria. And that's the tool that seems to be most"},{"t":8820,"text":"appropriate to deal with this. Um, we haven't reached out"},{"t":8823,"text":"to the CRD. But again, we could certainly have those"},{"t":8825,"text":"conversations with our colleagues. Okay. Thanks. Thanks so much. A"},{"t":8829,"text":"question is back to when the rental property centres are"},{"t":8832,"text":"maintenance bylaw was developed. I believe was last term. Can"},{"t":8836,"text":"you maybe talk about why this wasn't included in that"},{"t":8838,"text":"at that time. Does anyone have that kind of corporate"},{"t":8840,"text":"memory? Was it just not on the radar? I know"},{"t":8843,"text":"that was aimed at things like maintaining sinks and carpet"},{"t":8846,"text":"and cleanliness, but I'm just surprised that it wasn't caught"},{"t":8849,"text":"then. Other than obviously climate change is getting worse every"},{"t":8851,"text":"year. So maybe it's just a product of, of the"},{"t":8854,"text":"heat wave perhaps a 2021 heat wave. Director Hudson. Through"},{"t":8859,"text":"the mayor. I actually don't recall whether we considered that"},{"t":8863,"text":"or not, to be honest. And I think our key"},{"t":8866,"text":"staff person who might be able to answer that question"},{"t":8869,"text":"is not here at the moment. But, um, but we"},{"t":8871,"text":"can certainly, you know, if we come back to you"},{"t":8873,"text":"with a more detailed report on this, we're happy to"},{"t":8875,"text":"answer that question and sort of dig back to see"},{"t":8877,"text":"what we considered at that time. I would just offer,"},{"t":8881,"text":"um, I think the only person at this table who"},{"t":8885,"text":"was there at the time, uh, Councillor Dell, your question"},{"t":8888,"text":"included the answer. It wasn't paramount at that time to"},{"t":8892,"text":"consider the necessity of enshrining in a bylaw, a specific"},{"t":8895,"text":"response to what was clearly an emerging climate change issue."},{"t":8900,"text":"Uh, but I think when it was originally drafted, it"},{"t":8902,"text":"was intended to be something that was evolutionary in the"},{"t":8905,"text":"sense that it could be adapted as time's changed, which"},{"t":8907,"text":"is why we're here today. Okay. My final question here"},{"t":8910,"text":"is I know the folks out there in the health"},{"t":8913,"text":"community and the nursing community who are watching this quite"},{"t":8915,"text":"closely, um, obviously because I'm worried about deaths that could"},{"t":8918,"text":"occur in the next heat wave. Given we're in the"},{"t":8920,"text":"middle of the summer now, uh, we've probably missed this"},{"t":8923,"text":"window. We're looking already at next summer. Would you be"},{"t":8926,"text":"able to speculate on when a written report could come"},{"t":8928,"text":"back and what might be able to be in place"},{"t":8931,"text":"by next summer, uh, like do we think that option"},{"t":8936,"text":"one here could be a place by next summer. Is"},{"t":8939,"text":"there any sense of timeline that staff would want to"},{"t":8941,"text":"give or is it will that be a council decision"},{"t":8943,"text":"as the next council weighs priorities? But I just also"},{"t":8946,"text":"reflected back that there is concern. I think about next"},{"t":8948,"text":"summer. Like another heat wave will come. We don't know"},{"t":8951,"text":"when, but we don't want to be underprepared for it."},{"t":8953,"text":"Victor Hudson. So the mayor, I mean, I couldn't say"},{"t":8959,"text":"a specific date when we would report back, but I"},{"t":8961,"text":"think it would if you directed us to do this,"},{"t":8964,"text":"we would start that work. Um, we would need to"},{"t":8966,"text":"work with our colleagues and other departments on, on any"},{"t":8969,"text":"bylaw amendments, um, but I think, you know, we, we'd"},{"t":8972,"text":"like to bring it back. Also because it aligns with"},{"t":8975,"text":"some work that we were anticipating doing this winter where"},{"t":8978,"text":"we were going to be doing some tenant capacity building"},{"t":8981,"text":"in the community just to sort of alert tenants to"},{"t":8985,"text":"broad rules around tendencies. And so this would fit in"},{"t":8988,"text":"with that really nicely to be able to alert them"},{"t":8990,"text":"to that if it was a change that was coming"},{"t":8992,"text":"ahead of next summer. So I think that would be"},{"t":8994,"text":"our hope is that we could deal with it before"},{"t":8996,"text":"next summer. Okay. Great. I will leave my questions there."},{"t":8999,"text":"Then and I'll hold off on giving a date, only"},{"t":9001,"text":"just because I think that's up to the City Manager"},{"t":9004,"text":"and staff with the balance. There's a whole bunch of"},{"t":9005,"text":"work we've asked to have to do. It's all very"},{"t":9007,"text":"important. And I don't want to start prioritizing that right"},{"t":9009,"text":"now. Thank you. Councillor Cardona and then Councillor Loton. Thanks"},{"t":9013,"text":"a couple of questions. Technical questions in terms of the"},{"t":9016,"text":"potential maintenance of cooling equipment that is installed. With that"},{"t":9022,"text":"false sully to installations undertaken by the landlord, what happens"},{"t":9026,"text":"if the installation that's made by a tenant. And that"},{"t":9030,"text":"tenant moves out. Is the landlord then per the potential"},{"t":9035,"text":"wording of this future bylaw amendment. Obligated to maintain that"},{"t":9039,"text":"equipment. Dr. Hudson. What's your thought on that."},{"t":9059,"text":"Through the mayor, I think it depends. If it's something"},{"t":9062,"text":"the tenant was doing themselves, like if it was their"},{"t":9064,"text":"own portable, you know, cooling device that they took with"},{"t":9067,"text":"them, um, then it probably wouldn't be subject to that."},{"t":9071,"text":"But if it was something that the building owners or"},{"t":9075,"text":"managers actually installed as part of the building, then I"},{"t":9077,"text":"think that's what we would be trying to target. Something"},{"t":9079,"text":"that lives in the, or that stays with the, with"},{"t":9082,"text":"the building and with, I get that. But I'm saying"},{"t":9085,"text":"it, you know, take a scenario in which someone adds"},{"t":9087,"text":"an AC insert into a window. They move out. They"},{"t":9090,"text":"do, they do not take that equipment. It remains in"},{"t":9093,"text":"the unit. Would the landlord who did not install it"},{"t":9097,"text":"would they be obligated to maintain it."},{"t":9109,"text":"Um, through the mayor, I think other jurisdictions have, have"},{"t":9113,"text":"dealt with this by saying that units that are permanently"},{"t":9116,"text":"installed would be subject to this, um, but we, we"},{"t":9119,"text":"could consider that further and take that away. Okay. That"},{"t":9121,"text":"might need to be amended then. Cause as written, it"},{"t":9124,"text":"seems to me that it's only of its provided, I"},{"t":9127,"text":"presume owner means the landlord. Not the tenant. So anyway,"},{"t":9131,"text":"when it's on the floor, you might want to get"},{"t":9133,"text":"to that. Uh, just, I'll move on to a second"},{"t":9135,"text":"question then about heat pumps and heat pump inserts. I"},{"t":9139,"text":"mean, we're not quite there yet in terms of, um,"},{"t":9143,"text":"something that could be relatively easily installed right now. You"},{"t":9146,"text":"need a professional. But I'm following this, this field a"},{"t":9148,"text":"bit. And we're getting closer to the point where heat"},{"t":9150,"text":"pump installations can actually happen as an insert. Just want"},{"t":9154,"text":"to see if you guys have been following those trends"},{"t":9156,"text":"or how you might contemplate that affecting or impacting or"},{"t":9161,"text":"being relating to this, this bylaw. Victorness, is that something"},{"t":9167,"text":"that you've contemplated at this point or would that be"},{"t":9169,"text":"part of your future work. Through the mayor. Certainly following"},{"t":9176,"text":"technical developments. And in this case, uh, we'd have to"},{"t":9181,"text":"see, you know, whether this falls into portable or permanent."},{"t":9185,"text":"But, uh, you know, it would certainly fall within the"},{"t":9188,"text":"no prohibition of cooling devices in rental unit in the"},{"t":9192,"text":"case that it would be portable. Okay. But I haven't"},{"t":9196,"text":"seen any installs in Victoria as far as I know"},{"t":9198,"text":"yet. I think it's coming though. Um, okay. Last, I"},{"t":9202,"text":"think, question for me is how many folks died in"},{"t":9205,"text":"the heat dome in Victoria. Do we have that exact"},{"t":9208,"text":"number. Director Hudson, we have had that in the past."},{"t":9212,"text":"Do you have six? Is it more than three the"},{"t":9216,"text":"mayor? We've consulted with health authorities and data is not"},{"t":9223,"text":"provided in specific detail due to, uh, privacy and personal"},{"t":9228,"text":"data concerns. But we do know that roughly 20 deaths"},{"t":9233,"text":"occurred in Victoria or nearby municipalities. And likely between five"},{"t":9238,"text":"and 11 occurred within the municipal boundary, but we don't"},{"t":9241,"text":"have a specific number, uh, that hasn't been shared. Um,"},{"t":9246,"text":"by the BC coroner's office. Okay. And so do we"},{"t":9249,"text":"have any information on where they were living. And therefore"},{"t":9255,"text":"what buildings we might want to be focusing on? Or"},{"t":9257,"text":"is that a level privacy that we're not allowed to"},{"t":9259,"text":"have access to? Mr. Moore. Three of the mayor, we"},{"t":9264,"text":"have that information at a provincial level, but we do"},{"t":9267,"text":"not have it at a local level. And is there"},{"t":9270,"text":"any way to acquire it or is it just behind"},{"t":9272,"text":"a privacy barrier. Through the mayor, um, we've made some"},{"t":9279,"text":"requests and this has been the best data provided, but"},{"t":9284,"text":"I'm not sure if I can say for certain if"},{"t":9286,"text":"it's completely unavailable. Okay. Uh, maybe just, it's something of"},{"t":9292,"text":"a, of a comment though, but we had other direction"},{"t":9295,"text":"a couple of weeks ago about studying the potential to"},{"t":9298,"text":"expand the revitalization tax exemption. To allow for a greater"},{"t":9304,"text":"number of types of buildings to be allowed into that"},{"t":9306,"text":"deep retrofits program. And one of the pieces that we"},{"t":9309,"text":"amended was, um, around. Potential retrofits of buildings that are"},{"t":9317,"text":"already electrified, but have baseboard heating and therefore don't have"},{"t":9321,"text":"cooling. So it's not a fuel switching situation, but it's"},{"t":9323,"text":"still a cooling situation. And I do wonder if there"},{"t":9325,"text":"is an opportunity to, as part of that research, which"},{"t":9329,"text":"kind of dovetails with this research, to think about whether"},{"t":9332,"text":"or not we could determine some criteria that prioritizes certain"},{"t":9339,"text":"kinds of buildings in which, for instance, someone has passed"},{"t":9342,"text":"away. I mean, if the handful of really problematic buildings"},{"t":9346,"text":"in this city, they're maybe built in the cities, or"},{"t":9349,"text":"sorry, in the 70s, the glazing is bad. The insulation's"},{"t":9351,"text":"bad. And we could sort of isolate a handful of"},{"t":9354,"text":"buildings that are really problematic where the level of acuity"},{"t":9357,"text":"or risk is so high, especially for seniors, that maybe"},{"t":9360,"text":"that becomes a factor that is considered as like a"},{"t":9364,"text":"criterion, as part of a potential RTE program. And maybe"},{"t":9367,"text":"a bit of outreach there to say, these are the"},{"t":9370,"text":"really 20 problematic buildings. This is a low - hanging"},{"t":9372,"text":"fruit. We need to deal with these buildings first. The"},{"t":9375,"text":"newer ones we can deal with later because they have"},{"t":9377,"text":"better insulation, et cetera. So have you turned your minds"},{"t":9380,"text":"to that? Or would that be part of the ongoing"},{"t":9382,"text":"research. Dirt, Hudson. Through the mayor, I think that would"},{"t":9388,"text":"be part of the direction that council's already given us"},{"t":9391,"text":"on reviewing the retrofit tax exemption program. And between that"},{"t":9397,"text":"and this, I think that is something we are going"},{"t":9398,"text":"to turn our minds to because, you know, we, as"},{"t":9401,"text":"you know, we have many, many rental buildings in the"},{"t":9403,"text":"city. It's, you know, not, it's not possible to give"},{"t":9406,"text":"incentives to everybody or tax exemptions to everyone. So I"},{"t":9409,"text":"think we would want to turn our minds too. If"},{"t":9412,"text":"we were going to expand it for that purpose, how"},{"t":9414,"text":"do we prioritize? So yes, we will be considering that."},{"t":9416,"text":"Okay. Thanks. Thanks, Mayor. Councillor Loughton and then Gardner and"},{"t":9420,"text":"Kim, which I suspect we won't get to before we"},{"t":9422,"text":"break for lunch. Councillor Loughton. Um, thanks Mr. UMair. I'd"},{"t":9427,"text":"like to move the staff recommendation because I have an"},{"t":9431,"text":"amendments hoping we can do questions and comments together. Yes."},{"t":9434,"text":"If you move that recommendation that Stafford provided, then we"},{"t":9436,"text":"will move into both questions and comments. Okay. And then"},{"t":9440,"text":"for that. Questions. First. Yes. We absolutely can. That is"},{"t":9445,"text":"our convention. So would you like to hold on? It's"},{"t":9448,"text":"whatever suits. Okay. Then let's stick with questions for now."},{"t":9451,"text":"Okay. So. And then we'll come back to this at"},{"t":9453,"text":"some point. Great. Thanks. You have no questions. No. Oh,"},{"t":9460,"text":"okay. Pardon me. Sorry. I have an amendment. So I"},{"t":9463,"text":"thought it would be prudent to put it. I got"},{"t":9465,"text":"you. No, Council Gardner is correct. We should stick with"},{"t":9467,"text":"questions for now. Okay. Uh, that takes us to Councillor"},{"t":9470,"text":"Gardner. Do you have a few brief questions before we"},{"t":9472,"text":"break? My. Friend. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for"},{"t":9479,"text":"what you've done so far. And I really appreciate how"},{"t":9482,"text":"you've gone a bit beyond, which is good because it's"},{"t":9485,"text":"a broader question that I think our first, uh, question"},{"t":9488,"text":"of you was. And you've taken it, I think. So"},{"t":9491,"text":"thank you very much for that. Um, so and I"},{"t":9494,"text":"appreciate what you suggested here, which is to start by"},{"t":9497,"text":"removing barriers to cooling equipment. Now research looked at secondary"},{"t":9501,"text":"suites in some of the points you gave to us,"},{"t":9503,"text":"which I thought was interesting that somebody's palettes are doing"},{"t":9506,"text":"that. And months ago, when we looked at housing types,"},{"t":9509,"text":"I'm talking in December or January when we got data"},{"t":9512,"text":"on that. We learned that condos are a major source"},{"t":9514,"text":"of the secondary rental stock with 29 percent of condos"},{"t":9519,"text":"being in there. So would you also be looking at"},{"t":9521,"text":"the, um, rental units, which is quite major in condos."},{"t":9526,"text":"Dirk, Hudson. Through the mayor, we would by virtue of"},{"t":9531,"text":"the fact that our rental property standards of maintenance by"},{"t":9534,"text":"a lot, um, deal with, it does apply to all"},{"t":9537,"text":"rental properties in the city, um, whether it's the primary"},{"t":9540,"text":"rental market or the secondary rental market. So that would"},{"t":9543,"text":"be a consideration. Great. And how do we know where"},{"t":9544,"text":"they are. Dr. Hudson. I'm sorry. Could you repeat the"},{"t":9551,"text":"question? How would we know where the rental units are"},{"t":9554,"text":"in condominiums. Or stratus go back from the 70s too."},{"t":9564,"text":"Richardson. Trucking question."},{"t":9583,"text":"Through the mayor. We have data on how many strata"},{"t":9586,"text":"units are in the secondary rental market, but we don't"},{"t":9589,"text":"know where they are exactly because they do change over"},{"t":9591,"text":"time based on, um, the owners, you know, deciding whether"},{"t":9595,"text":"they want to have them in the rental pool or"},{"t":9598,"text":"not. So yeah, we don't have precise locations. Yes. And"},{"t":9602,"text":"so we don't know how we're going to defy that"},{"t":9604,"text":"29 percent which is a huge number. Correct. We don't"},{"t":9608,"text":"know how we're going to reach them. Is that correct."},{"t":9612,"text":"Kirk Rudsson. At this point. Um, so the mayor reached"},{"t":9617,"text":"them through an engagement process. Is that how were you"},{"t":9620,"text":"going to identify those rental units that are actually in"},{"t":9623,"text":"condominiums in order for this to apply to them? Through"},{"t":9629,"text":"the mayor, just Ross, I would manage your housing. You"},{"t":9633,"text":"know, I just worth putting back into context that the"},{"t":9636,"text":"tools that we're talking about today, uh, being the rental"},{"t":9639,"text":"property standards of maintenance bylaw, um, it is more of"},{"t":9645,"text":"a complaint - based, um, approach to enforcement. And so"},{"t":9649,"text":"typically if there is a renter who is in a"},{"t":9653,"text":"strata building within the secondary rental market and they're having"},{"t":9656,"text":"issues, they may reach out to our tenant planner. They"},{"t":9659,"text":"may reach out to the, uh, the RTB. And that"},{"t":9663,"text":"is the way those sort of mechanism to which they"},{"t":9666,"text":"would identify where the discrepancy between the rental property standards"},{"t":9671,"text":"means of bylaw and what's happening and within their rental"},{"t":9674,"text":"unit. So it's not necessarily as critical for us to"},{"t":9679,"text":"know at any one time where all of those units"},{"t":9681,"text":"are. It's about setting up the framework. So there is"},{"t":9684,"text":"a process by which those tenants can have some recourse"},{"t":9689,"text":"if something is wrong. Right. Okay. Thank you. Thank you."},{"t":9693,"text":"So therefore other people that live in condominium buildings, it"},{"t":9697,"text":"might be identical to someone next door. They wouldn't have"},{"t":9699,"text":"any mechanism of complaining because it wouldn't relate if they"},{"t":9703,"text":"happened to own a structure, or a unit. We don't"},{"t":9709,"text":"reliant on a complaint. Yeah. Those, no, not if someone"},{"t":9712,"text":"lives there and as an owner, not a renter. So"},{"t":9714,"text":"they aren't of concern. Is that correct? Mr. Sauerd. Well,"},{"t":9719,"text":"through the mayor, if they are an owner of the"},{"t":9722,"text":"strata unit, they have the mechanism of the strata Council"},{"t":9725,"text":"and the Strata Act that they would be operating under,"},{"t":9729,"text":"right? Like that's what we're talking about the sort of"},{"t":9732,"text":"rental versus ownership. Yeah. Yeah, I know a lot that"},{"t":9734,"text":"sleep outside on their decks and their owners because of"},{"t":9737,"text":"course that they really don't have access. They don't have"},{"t":9740,"text":"control. But anyway, I've also, the last question I've also"},{"t":9743,"text":"been concerned about old rental structures. Cause I live in"},{"t":9745,"text":"James Bay and we knew that it was very, you"},{"t":9748,"text":"know, hit because we have a lot of elderly with"},{"t":9750,"text":"already compromised health conditions. And so we know that. And"},{"t":9755,"text":"the four story rental buildings. Now I am concerned and"},{"t":9758,"text":"don't want to lose those low cost housing. So if"},{"t":9762,"text":"requirements are quite perspective with the viability of these older"},{"t":9767,"text":"structures be at risk. In other words, have you heard"},{"t":9770,"text":"from this segment of the rental industry. That they may"},{"t":9773,"text":"be feel forced to sail, uh, were two prescriptive on"},{"t":9777,"text":"what is asked of them. And some of these buildings."},{"t":9780,"text":"Mr. Sauerd. Uh, through the mayor, I think, you know,"},{"t":9784,"text":"just worth highlighting that, you know, we're, it's a certainly"},{"t":9787,"text":"a very complex issue. And we've, we've highlighted that in"},{"t":9791,"text":"the presentation, uh, today, um, recognising that there's implications, whether"},{"t":9797,"text":"it be economic, whether it be health, uh, climate. And"},{"t":9802,"text":"so I think that's why we would be suggesting to"},{"t":9804,"text":"do some more monitoring and further sort of investigate the"},{"t":9807,"text":"issue. We've had some early conversations with representatives from the"},{"t":9812,"text":"property management sort of sector with landlord BC. And I"},{"t":9816,"text":"think those have been positive conversations thus far, but certainly"},{"t":9819,"text":"there's an acknowledgement within that, uh, that group that they"},{"t":9824,"text":"would need to be some time for them to prepare"},{"t":9826,"text":"for the transition. But they acknowledge that there's, there's issues"},{"t":9830,"text":"and challenges, uh, with the lack of cooling within the"},{"t":9834,"text":"stock as well. So, uh, I think it's something that"},{"t":9836,"text":"we would explore further, um, but we understand for sure"},{"t":9840,"text":"that there are, um, their implications. I will maybe just"},{"t":9844,"text":"defer if Chris Moore has anything to add. Thank you"},{"t":9849,"text":"for the work you're doing. And I only. Oh, sorry."},{"t":9853,"text":"Okay. Get into the lights. Through the mayor. I'll also"},{"t":9857,"text":"add that following best practices of other jurisdictions. There's generally"},{"t":9861,"text":"an opportunity for landlords to indicate if there are technical"},{"t":9866,"text":"challenges and be exempted from the requirements. But it requires"},{"t":9870,"text":"some sort of professional review or engineering review. Uh, so"},{"t":9875,"text":"that's how other jurisdictions have taken that into consideration. Great."},{"t":9879,"text":"Thank you very much. And thank you for that last"},{"t":9882,"text":"point. It's very important. Going forward. And I raised the"},{"t":9885,"text":"questions only so that you can perhaps add them through"},{"t":9887,"text":"your considerations as you go forward on this important project."},{"t":9890,"text":"Thank you Mayor. Thank you very much. I think with"},{"t":9893,"text":"that, we'll take a break now and we'll return at"},{"t":9896,"text":"105 to allow a full hour for lunch. And when"},{"t":9899,"text":"we do, we'll start with Councillor Kim and we'll deal"},{"t":9901,"text":"with the balance of this particular item, including potentially, I"},{"t":9905,"text":"understand, uh, the moving and perhaps amending of the recommended"},{"t":9910,"text":"recommended motion from staff. So let's return at 105. Come"},{"t":9915,"text":"back to Victoria City Council's Committee of the Whole meeting"},{"t":9918,"text":"for July 23rd. Before we took our break, we were"},{"t":9922,"text":"dealing with item G1, the first of two staff reports."},{"t":9925,"text":"We were still on questions, and before I turned to"},{"t":9928,"text":"Councillor Loughton, who I believe is going to make a"},{"t":9930,"text":"motion, I will turn to Councillor Kim, who has some"},{"t":9932,"text":"questions. Yes, thank you through the chair. You know, some"},{"t":9936,"text":"order in the Gallery, please. Order the gallery, please. Thank"},{"t":9940,"text":"you. Go ahead, Councillor Kibb. Wow, thanks for making me"},{"t":9943,"text":"feel important. So the first question is, have a staff."},{"t":9951,"text":"Are you aware of the CRD heat map. And have"},{"t":9954,"text":"you taken a look at it for this. Is he"},{"t":9957,"text":"nodding, Mr. Moore? What were you? Through the mayor, we"},{"t":9960,"text":"are, we help support the development of that as well,"},{"t":9964,"text":"and we add a staff level have more detailed information."},{"t":9969,"text":"At a building level. Yeah, then that is both heat"},{"t":9974,"text":"mapping, as well as social demographics that are also important"},{"t":9978,"text":"when considering extreme heat. Great. You just led me into"},{"t":9983,"text":"the second question, which is, if we cannot target individual"},{"t":9987,"text":"buildings where fatalities have occurred, would you be comfortable with"},{"t":9992,"text":"the next best step being referencing that data in the"},{"t":9996,"text":"heat map for geographic social determinants and demographics. As a"},{"t":10002,"text":"way forward, perhaps. Mr. Moore. Through the mayor. I think"},{"t":10011,"text":"we're developing this, but certainly that's one of our strongest"},{"t":10014,"text":"sources of information for buildings in the community around these"},{"t":10018,"text":"risks. So it would be taken into consideration."},{"t":10029,"text":"Have Staff considered. How this could open the door to"},{"t":10033,"text":"a conversation about licensing of landlords. It's a large question."},{"t":10040,"text":"Anyone like to try and hypothesize on that."},{"t":10051,"text":"Through the mayor, you know, I think given the scope"},{"t":10054,"text":"of the direction to date, I would say there hasn't"},{"t":10057,"text":"really been any further investigation of that. But I guess"},{"t":10061,"text":"I just would say that, you know, in doing some"},{"t":10063,"text":"of the research and looking at the new Westminster kind"},{"t":10067,"text":"of context, they do use sort of their business license"},{"t":10072,"text":"kind of bylaw, but that also is where they kind"},{"t":10074,"text":"of embed their sort of standards of maintenance work within"},{"t":10078,"text":"that bylaw. So, um, certainly as we turn our minds"},{"t":10081,"text":"to sort of further understanding the issue, um, that is"},{"t":10085,"text":"something that we could look at. But it is worth"},{"t":10087,"text":"noting that it's quite a different context than the City"},{"t":10090,"text":"of Victoria in terms of like how they've set up"},{"t":10092,"text":"their bylaws. Yeah, thank you for that. Um, with respect"},{"t":10099,"text":"to mention of some sort of tenant outreach happening in"},{"t":10103,"text":"the winter that was mentioned, can I be given some"},{"t":10109,"text":"information about like the communications plan outreach? What will that"},{"t":10112,"text":"look like. How can you leverage us to support that"},{"t":10115,"text":"work. Mr. Snoward? Through the mayor, the, uh, the sort"},{"t":10122,"text":"of outreach, um, and kind of education work is following"},{"t":10126,"text":"from the community safety wellbeing plan, uh, that sort of"},{"t":10130,"text":"highlights, uh, opportunities to kind of improve tenant education, uh,"},{"t":10134,"text":"in the community. And so, uh, it would be really"},{"t":10137,"text":"looking at sort of advancing that action. And, you know,"},{"t":10143,"text":"currently, uh, Stafford just doing some of the sort of"},{"t":10147,"text":"early work planning on that, um, really, I think a"},{"t":10150,"text":"big focus is an opportunity to make sure tenants in"},{"t":10153,"text":"the community are aware of some of the tools that"},{"t":10155,"text":"are there to support them, whether that be things like"},{"t":10157,"text":"the tenant protection bylaw, whether it be the rental property"},{"t":10161,"text":"stains of standards of maintenance by a law and just"},{"t":10166,"text":"recognising that we probably would be focusing more on organisations"},{"t":10171,"text":"that have a lot of, uh, sort of interface with"},{"t":10174,"text":"renters and sort of a bit more of a like"},{"t":10176,"text":"train the trainer kind of approach, um, as opposed to"},{"t":10179,"text":"maybe, you know, trying to do comprehensive outreach to all"},{"t":10184,"text":"the tenants in the community per se, but trying to"},{"t":10186,"text":"make sure the resources are there with sort of the"},{"t":10188,"text":"groups that may have, uh, you know, tie - ins"},{"t":10191,"text":"with, with different renter populations. Um, are these groups all"},{"t":10196,"text":"locally based or are you also looking at provincial orcs"},{"t":10201,"text":"that serve Victoria tenants. Through the mayor, um, it's a"},{"t":10205,"text":"good question. I would have to look back at sort"},{"t":10207,"text":"of our early kind of, um, list of community partners"},{"t":10211,"text":"and things like that, um, probably predominantly would be Victoria"},{"t":10216,"text":"based groups, but, um, I think there probably are maybe"},{"t":10219,"text":"opportunities for looking at some other provincial ones. Um, but"},{"t":10222,"text":"I think certainly as we, uh, we sort of move"},{"t":10225,"text":"that work for, we would certainly, um, keep counsel, uh,"},{"t":10229,"text":"kind of updated. Okay. Um, I'll just flag track BC."},{"t":10235,"text":"It's where I went when I was facing an eviction"},{"t":10237,"text":"and it's provincial. Um, so, um, number four. Let's say"},{"t":10246,"text":"this, this goes forward. It's okay if the answer for"},{"t":10249,"text":"this right now, it's a bit of a detailed question."},{"t":10252,"text":"Um, but my concern is that the market that provides"},{"t":10257,"text":"portable cooling devices will then adjust and enjoy a windfall."},{"t":10264,"text":"Of profit. Uh, we do not control that private market."},{"t":10268,"text":"However, um, that is a concern I have, which will"},{"t":10270,"text":"then have knock on impacts on landlords, the phasing of"},{"t":10277,"text":"an availability of cooling devices, uh, locally in stores. So,"},{"t":10283,"text":"um, has that been considered. Who'd like to take that."},{"t":10290,"text":"Director hudson? I see you leaning in. Through the mayor."},{"t":10297,"text":"We haven't considered that because I think there's various ways"},{"t":10301,"text":"that cooling systems could be addressed. But I think we"},{"t":10305,"text":"did turn our minds to when this work should happen"},{"t":10309,"text":"with, you know, if Council wants to make amendments to"},{"t":10312,"text":"our rental property standards of maintenance, SPILA to remove barriers."},{"t":10318,"text":"Then, um, the more, I guess the sooner that we"},{"t":10320,"text":"do that, the more people can plan ahead, um, ahead"},{"t":10323,"text":"of next summer and sort of spread out those kinds"},{"t":10326,"text":"of costs, um, but that's really all that we've thought"},{"t":10329,"text":"about so far. So I think we would, we may"},{"t":10331,"text":"need to, you know, take that into consideration. But, but"},{"t":10334,"text":"you're correct that some of those things are out of"},{"t":10336,"text":"our control. Is communication around that when doing tenant outreach"},{"t":10340,"text":"work, something that can be folded in. Especially because air"},{"t":10344,"text":"conditioners tend to be cheaper in the winter. Yeah. I'm"},{"t":10349,"text":"seeing an odd, yes. I'll take that as an answer."},{"t":10352,"text":"And then my last question is the standards of living."},{"t":10356,"text":"So, um, I have a concern that this sounds so"},{"t":10360,"text":"great on paper, but when it comes, when the rubber"},{"t":10363,"text":"hits the road and it's put into practice, um, we"},{"t":10369,"text":"will find edge cases where, uh, bylaw standard will be"},{"t":10373,"text":"met, but it's not necessarily what we might consider a"},{"t":10377,"text":"livable condition. Perhaps as an air conditioning unit that was"},{"t":10380,"text":"cheap and makes a lot of noise, um, and it"},{"t":10383,"text":"drives the tenant nuts. And so my question is like,"},{"t":10387,"text":"how are we negotiating those like unexpected edge case circumstances"},{"t":10391,"text":"where it doesn't land. George Johnson. Mr. Moore."},{"t":10402,"text":"Through the mayor. I think for the proposed amendments, the"},{"t":10410,"text":"option, this would still be tenant driven. So they're choosing"},{"t":10413,"text":"the model that they would bring into their apartment, um,"},{"t":10416,"text":"so they would have the opportunity to find, uh, hopefully"},{"t":10420,"text":"a unit that serves them best. But, uh, for an"},{"t":10425,"text":"example like new Westminsters bylaw, that's a very valid point"},{"t":10428,"text":"on something we can take into consideration as we monitor"},{"t":10431,"text":"other jurisdictions. Okay. That's it for me. Thank you. You"},{"t":10437,"text":"almost have any specific questions. Checking with concert Thompson. Nope."},{"t":10442,"text":"All right. I'm going to go to Councillor Loton to"},{"t":10443,"text":"move what is not a staff recommendation, but it's a"},{"t":10447,"text":"suggestion by staff of an appropriate motion. Do you like"},{"t":10450,"text":"to move that motion? Yes, please. Is the seconder for"},{"t":10453,"text":"that? Councillor Kim is seconding that motion. Okay. Councillor Loton."},{"t":10459,"text":"Over to you. I'd like to start by trying an"},{"t":10462,"text":"amendment. Um, I've sent it over to alleged services. So"},{"t":10466,"text":"it's a new number three. It was a second to"},{"t":10472,"text":"read it. Before I ask for a second,"},{"t":10481,"text":"you're, do staff understand what a passive first cooling strategy"},{"t":10485,"text":"is."},{"t":10495,"text":"Councillorton, can you take less than a minute to describe"},{"t":10498,"text":"what you think that is? Yes. It is, um, different"},{"t":10503,"text":"ways of making units cooler without using an air conditioner"},{"t":10510,"text":"or, um, a heat pump. So for example solar films"},{"t":10515,"text":"or exterior shading or just different ways of decreasing the"},{"t":10525,"text":"heat in a unit that is essentially non - mechanical."},{"t":10529,"text":"Maybe we put it that way. Okay. With that then,"},{"t":10532,"text":"um, is there a seconder for the amendment. Councillor Kim,"},{"t":10537,"text":"second amendment. Councillor Loughton, please speak to the amendment only,"},{"t":10540,"text":"please. Thank you. And through you mayor. I think in"},{"t":10544,"text":"my mind, this is just the low hanging fruit on"},{"t":10547,"text":"the situation in order to help keep units cooler in,"},{"t":10551,"text":"in the immediate term. And when this came to us,"},{"t":10555,"text":"um, based on the work that was done in new"},{"t":10559,"text":"west, we learned that advocacy groups are pushing for what"},{"t":10562,"text":"they're calling a passive first approach. So if a landlord"},{"t":10567,"text":"installs high quality window filming or exterior shading, the unit"},{"t":10571,"text":"might only need a small fan to stay below 26"},{"t":10575,"text":"degrees rather than a heavy duty air conditioner or, or"},{"t":10579,"text":"a heat pump. In the new Westminster debate, the external"},{"t":10583,"text":"shading was also highlighted. And these are kind of like"},{"t":10587,"text":"heavy duty mesh filters that sit outside the window. And"},{"t":10591,"text":"sometimes these can even be more effective than internal films"},{"t":10595,"text":"because they stop the sun from hitting the glass entirely."},{"t":10600,"text":"And what we learned is that in Europe, these are"},{"t":10603,"text":"standard. And we could ask staff to look at making"},{"t":10607,"text":"it easier for landlords to install these without needing, um,"},{"t":10612,"text":"complex development. Permits, or maybe, you know, tenants themselves could"},{"t":10617,"text":"have them installed if they wanted to take on that"},{"t":10620,"text":"expense or perhaps the way to help offset these expenses."},{"t":10624,"text":"But that's what, what I'd be asking staff to come"},{"t":10627,"text":"back with options and recommendations for. So in some, it's"},{"t":10631,"text":"just to prioritize this passive cooling solutions like solar window"},{"t":10637,"text":"films and external shading to help meet the 26 degree"},{"t":10641,"text":"target immediately and protect the electrical grid. And these, these"},{"t":10647,"text":"ways are often more affordable for building owners than mechanical"},{"t":10653,"text":"air conditioning. And they ensure that safety upgrades might not"},{"t":10657,"text":"lead to higher rent. Just in closing, I'll note that"},{"t":10661,"text":"I actually have solar filters on my windows in my"},{"t":10666,"text":"apartment. And they do work. It's my space is much"},{"t":10671,"text":"cooler. And I, you know, I do have a thermometer"},{"t":10674,"text":"in there. It hasn't gotten up above, you know, 22"},{"t":10677,"text":"sort of yet this year. So I just want to"},{"t":10679,"text":"note that I have some firsthand experience about these. And"},{"t":10682,"text":"I think they could really help particularly, you know, seniors"},{"t":10685,"text":"who are suffering and hot apartments without, um, mechanical cooling."},{"t":10691,"text":"Thank you. Thank you Councillor Kim on the amendment. Thanks"},{"t":10695,"text":"a question for staff. I love this. And another example"},{"t":10699,"text":"of a PASA first cooling strategy is lining your windows"},{"t":10702,"text":"with aluminum foil. Um, so what lines are you going"},{"t":10709,"text":"to be trying to strike here. Um, and I also"},{"t":10713,"text":"bring up the aluminum foil example because like does that"},{"t":10716,"text":"then encroach on things like design. And design guidelines. Yeah."},{"t":10724,"text":"I wonder your sense of scope. Kirk Radson. Through the"},{"t":10729,"text":"mayor. Certainly there are some strategies that would be interior"},{"t":10733,"text":"only and there would be some that would affect the"},{"t":10735,"text":"exterior. So I think we would turn our minds to"},{"t":10737,"text":"that because some of them would affect the exterior design"},{"t":10739,"text":"of buildings. And we have design guidelines in place throughout"},{"t":10743,"text":"the city for multi unit residential buildings. Um, but all"},{"t":10748,"text":"that to say, we could certainly think about this and,"},{"t":10751,"text":"and come back with something. I guess, uh, maybe I"},{"t":10753,"text":"could ask Council just for clarity if the suite of"},{"t":10758,"text":"recommendations pass, would there be an expectation that number three"},{"t":10761,"text":"would come at the same time as number one? Or"},{"t":10764,"text":"is it okay to have a phased approach with something's"},{"t":10767,"text":"coming first and something's coming later? So I guess that"},{"t":10769,"text":"would be my question. Can you move the motion? What"},{"t":10771,"text":"is your thought on that? Through you, Mayor, in my"},{"t":10775,"text":"mind, the passive cooling strategy should come first, but I'd"},{"t":10781,"text":"be open to, you know, staff's thoughts on this because"},{"t":10784,"text":"I don't, I'm not sure what this actually entails. So,"},{"t":10789,"text":"um, it seems to be logical that that would be,"},{"t":10793,"text":"you know, the next step because it's, it's quite a"},{"t":10795,"text":"bit simpler than the rest of this, I think, but"},{"t":10799,"text":"is it. I think the answer to your question, Director"},{"t":10803,"text":"Hudson is it would be helpful if it was combined."},{"t":10806,"text":"If it came at the same time."},{"t":10816,"text":"It's just our. Mayor. I guess just the one point"},{"t":10821,"text":"I would add is just that, you know, at this"},{"t":10823,"text":"point in time, like I think staff have some confidence"},{"t":10827,"text":"that at least the, you know, part one of the"},{"t":10830,"text":"recommendation, you know, we have, we're, we're kind of suggesting,"},{"t":10834,"text":"you know, clear. Specific updates to an existing bylaw. Um,"},{"t":10843,"text":"and so I think there is a bit more certainty"},{"t":10848,"text":"and clarity around what that action is. Whereas, uh, I"},{"t":10852,"text":"think just the nature of the third recommendation on the"},{"t":10857,"text":"floor right now is it would be, there may be"},{"t":10861,"text":"a bit more of an iterative approach where we need"},{"t":10862,"text":"to come back, describe what maybe some of the options"},{"t":10866,"text":"are, get direction around said options. And then there may"},{"t":10871,"text":"be policies or bylaw or design guideline updates that flow"},{"t":10875,"text":"from that. So I think just recognising that there's maybe"},{"t":10880,"text":"a little bit of process associated with figuring out what"},{"t":10885,"text":"exactly makes sense to include in, in a, in a"},{"t":10889,"text":"passive first cooling strategy, given that there may be different"},{"t":10891,"text":"tools at play. Councillor Loughton, you've not included a deadline"},{"t":10894,"text":"in this. I've understood staff correctly. Number three is doable,"},{"t":10898,"text":"but not necessarily in the same time frame is one"},{"t":10900,"text":"and two. Does that undermine your amendment? No, I think"},{"t":10904,"text":"that's a, I think that's okay. Like that was, that"},{"t":10906,"text":"was my intention. That is that it would come back"},{"t":10908,"text":"with some recommendations. And that's specifically why I didn't include"},{"t":10912,"text":"it as part of number one. So, um, because the"},{"t":10916,"text":"number one and two are clearer and more, you know,"},{"t":10919,"text":"direct action if you want to put it that way."},{"t":10922,"text":"Then I think it makes sense to you to have,"},{"t":10925,"text":"you continue working on that and then do this report"},{"t":10927,"text":"back as you can. Yes, director Hudson. Thank you through"},{"t":10932,"text":"the mayor. Maybe then I'll just add that, um, you"},{"t":10934,"text":"know, as Mr. Sauerd mentioned number one is really just"},{"t":10936,"text":"about removing barriers. And so that's a fairly straightforward bialumiment"},{"t":10940,"text":"that we could make. So, um, so yeah, I think"},{"t":10943,"text":"my question was in the spirit of not wanting to"},{"t":10945,"text":"hold number one up if this is what you were"},{"t":10948,"text":"inclined to do. And, um, but we would certainly be"},{"t":10951,"text":"able to start the work in number three and bring"},{"t":10955,"text":"it to you when it's ready. So thank you. That"},{"t":10958,"text":"seems perfectly acceptable to me, Mayor. Councillor Coleman, sir. Did"},{"t":10961,"text":"you have anything to add before I go to further"},{"t":10963,"text":"speakers? Um, yeah, thank you. Um, glad we figured that"},{"t":10967,"text":"out because not going to lie, El Nino and next"},{"t":10969,"text":"summer is really freaking me out. So the sooner we"},{"t":10971,"text":"got to like something instead of waiting for perfect is"},{"t":10974,"text":"like, great. Um, the other reason I like this amendment"},{"t":10978,"text":"is funny enough addresses my concern about market costs of"},{"t":10982,"text":"air conditioners and fans. So, um, I really appreciate the"},{"t":10985,"text":"diversification here. Thanks. Councillor Gardner on the amendment. Well, thank"},{"t":10989,"text":"you. Um, I mean, visited people on Michigan and the"},{"t":10994,"text":"four story walkups, they indeed have tinfoil. On the windows"},{"t":10999,"text":"facing south. So I quite appreciate this number three. And"},{"t":11003,"text":"I think it's actually, um, I actually feel the same"},{"t":11008,"text":"as first mentioned by Councillor Loughton, which is that can"},{"t":11012,"text":"almost be easier. And to put into place earlier. And,"},{"t":11018,"text":"um, so I hope that you will actually look at"},{"t":11021,"text":"it because I think it could be a quick, not"},{"t":11023,"text":"fix, but a quick type of thing that might be"},{"t":11025,"text":"able to be done. Now, and although she did mention"},{"t":11029,"text":"passive, I can understand we don't want to really interfere,"},{"t":11032,"text":"I think, with the building envelope. So the exterior doesn't"},{"t":11036,"text":"appeal to me as much as a treatment inside windows."},{"t":11038,"text":"I think that could be very beneficial. And, uh, so"},{"t":11042,"text":"I hope that that will be incorporated more quickly than"},{"t":11046,"text":"you might have first thought of when you first looked"},{"t":11048,"text":"at it. Cause it may be something before next summer."},{"t":11052,"text":"And so, um, I very much appreciate this amendment. Thank"},{"t":11055,"text":"you. Thank you. Councillor Thompson, do you speak to the"},{"t":11058,"text":"amendment or the main motion. Uh, the amendment, please. Go"},{"t":11062,"text":"ahead. Um, yeah, thanks to staff. I appreciate that number"},{"t":11068,"text":"one can be done before the number three report. That's"},{"t":11071,"text":"very important. Um, I do have a question about number"},{"t":11075,"text":"three for the idea of passive first. Once that is"},{"t":11082,"text":"supposed we do adopt some sort of a passive first"},{"t":11087,"text":"strategy or bylaw or whatever it would look like in"},{"t":11090,"text":"the end. Would staffs understanding B that that just means"},{"t":11095,"text":"we're trying to encourage passive or does it mean that,"},{"t":11099,"text":"um, a building owner has to try passive first. See"},{"t":11103,"text":"that it fails. And then they can consider mechanical. Director"},{"t":11108,"text":"Hudson through the mayor, this wouldn't be a requirement for"},{"t":11111,"text":"building owners. It would be in the spirit of design"},{"t":11114,"text":"guidelines. So, um, or advisory design guidelines. And so it"},{"t":11118,"text":"would be very much triggered when somebody's considering doing changes"},{"t":11121,"text":"to their building. And then we would potentially have some"},{"t":11124,"text":"guidelines for them to follow. So I don't think we"},{"t":11127,"text":"would see this as a, as a requirement. It would"},{"t":11129,"text":"be to help them, if they are seeking out what"},{"t":11133,"text":"strategies could we do either inside our buildings or on"},{"t":11136,"text":"the outside. And then we would perhaps have some guidelines"},{"t":11138,"text":"for them to help them with that. Okay. Great. Thanks."},{"t":11141,"text":"And thank you. And, um, still talking about passive, but"},{"t":11148,"text":"as it may relate to part number one, um, what"},{"t":11152,"text":"we've got there is remove barriers to cooling equipment, including."},{"t":11158,"text":"Now just wonder if cooling equipment, including would potentially include"},{"t":11164,"text":"passive or if it means nope, it's only mechanical. Director"},{"t":11170,"text":"Hudson. Mr."},{"t":11180,"text":"Mutz. Through the mayor. The focus of those bylaw amendments,"},{"t":11186,"text":"uh, are on mechanical equipment. And this is largely motivated"},{"t":11191,"text":"by the fact that while PASCE cooling, uh, can provide"},{"t":11196,"text":"benefits. It slows the rate of cooling in a suite."},{"t":11201,"text":"And then, uh, lower outdoor temperatures allow, uh, temperatures to"},{"t":11206,"text":"come back down, um, outdoors and indoors. But, uh, they're,"},{"t":11210,"text":"they don't remove heat from a already hot space. So"},{"t":11214,"text":"in the case of a situation like heat dome where"},{"t":11217,"text":"there's extended duration of hot temperatures, uh, even with PESF"},{"t":11222,"text":"measures, those spaces may reach unsafe temperatures and you need"},{"t":11225,"text":"mechanical cooling to remove the heat from a, from a"},{"t":11228,"text":"hot space or you need temperatures to go down, uh,"},{"t":11231,"text":"overnight or outside, which may not be the case. And"},{"t":11233,"text":"some heat wave events. Uh, so that has been the"},{"t":11236,"text":"primary focus, um, of these proposed amendments. Okay. At the"},{"t":11243,"text":"very beginning, thanks at the very beginning of what you"},{"t":11245,"text":"said there, I think you said, um, that passive only"},{"t":11249,"text":"could result in suites not being able to shed heat,"},{"t":11254,"text":"like not being able to release the extra heat that's"},{"t":11256,"text":"built up. Is that correct? Did I hear that correctly?"},{"t":11259,"text":"Mr. Mur. Through the mayor. Passive measures prevent heat gain"},{"t":11265,"text":"in a space and slow the rate of heating in"},{"t":11268,"text":"the case of the outdoor air is warmer than the"},{"t":11270,"text":"indoor air. But it can't remove heat from a space."},{"t":11274,"text":"And there are people and electronics in a space are"},{"t":11278,"text":"constantly generating heat within a space raising that temperature as"},{"t":11280,"text":"well as solar heat gains and heat conducted through the"},{"t":11284,"text":"building envelope. Um, so that's the key point is that"},{"t":11287,"text":"I think passive measures slow the rate of heat gain."},{"t":11290,"text":"And if outdoor temperatures drop soon enough, uh, then you'll"},{"t":11293,"text":"have comfortable temperatures inside, but only mechanical cooling removes heat"},{"t":11298,"text":"from a space that's an uncomfortable temperature already. Okay. Thanks."},{"t":11302,"text":"No further questions mayor. And I do support the amendment."},{"t":11307,"text":"Thank you very much on the amendment. Any other comments"},{"t":11310,"text":"or questions. Not seeing any on the amendment. Then all"},{"t":11315,"text":"those in favor. I'm going to pose. That is unanimous."},{"t":11320,"text":"Councillor Loughten back to you in the main motion. I'm"},{"t":11326,"text":"just happy to support this. I think it's really important"},{"t":11328,"text":"that we do everything we can to keep temperatures under"},{"t":11334,"text":"26 degrees in rental buildings and based on the last"},{"t":11339,"text":"heat dome and the loss of life. It's just we"},{"t":11341,"text":"need to do everything we can. So, um, happy to"},{"t":11344,"text":"support this today. Thanks. Thank you Councillor Kimmy with the"},{"t":11347,"text":"Secondary of the Main Motion. Um, thank you. Uh, well,"},{"t":11350,"text":"I'm so grateful to each of you for what you're"},{"t":11352,"text":"doing. And, you know, actually being on one could argue"},{"t":11356,"text":"on the front lines of the public health and safety"},{"t":11358,"text":"of residents. Um, my only comment that might sour this"},{"t":11366,"text":"is there should have been done years ago. Um, I"},{"t":11368,"text":"was just having a conversation with someone over, um, today"},{"t":11372,"text":"about how they remember the Mount St. Helens eruption and"},{"t":11375,"text":"how there was a bit of smoke in the area"},{"t":11377,"text":"here when that happened and how it is now just"},{"t":11380,"text":"like a regular common occurrence stuff smoky air in the"},{"t":11384,"text":"summers. And I just wish our society had collectively recognise"},{"t":11388,"text":"that we were frogs and boiling water sooner. But you"},{"t":11392,"text":"know, better late than never. So thank you. Councillor Caradona"},{"t":11396,"text":"on the main motion. Uh, thanks. I've got two additional"},{"t":11399,"text":"amendments. So the first one would be under 1B. Circling"},{"t":11405,"text":"back to my comments from earlier. Um, try to rearrange"},{"t":11407,"text":"some of the words. So it would be ensure that"},{"t":11409,"text":"buildings are dwelling units with cooling devices or other forms"},{"t":11413,"text":"of properly. Properly. Properly installed. Cooling systems."},{"t":11423,"text":"And then. Move the provided by the owner. To after"},{"t":11428,"text":"the words. Be properly maintained. Sorry. That's a direction, not"},{"t":11432,"text":"actual. Oh, sorry. So he's providing direction to move some"},{"t":11435,"text":"words. Yeah. So the words provided by the owner. Would"},{"t":11439,"text":"be moved to after the words be properly maintained. Have"},{"t":11448,"text":"you got that. That's it."},{"t":11459,"text":"Yeah. Okay. You'll have to put a strike through that."},{"t":11461,"text":"There you go. Uh, you want to not have the"},{"t":11464,"text":"second provided in there, I believe, Councillor Caridona. He wants"},{"t":11468,"text":"to be read properly made. Yeah. Actually. Yeah. That's correct."},{"t":11471,"text":"Cut the other button. Provide it. That's your intention. Yeah."},{"t":11477,"text":"So in case maybe a problem anybody. Okay. So you"},{"t":11479,"text":"can see that that amendment is the addition of the"},{"t":11482,"text":"bolded words or the movement of some of the boulder"},{"t":11485,"text":"words and the removal of the structure through bolded words."},{"t":11489,"text":"Uh, secondary for that amendment. Councillor Kim Council Count on"},{"t":11493,"text":"that amendment. Go ahead. Yeah. I'm trying to solve the"},{"t":11495,"text":"issue here that we want to be somebody agnostic on"},{"t":11497,"text":"who installs a cooling system. It could be the owner."},{"t":11501,"text":"It could be a tenant. But I do think I"},{"t":11503,"text":"added the word properly, purposefully, because I'm imagining a scenario"},{"t":11507,"text":"in which maybe a tenant does not install something properly."},{"t":11510,"text":"I can imagine a landlord saying, well, why should we"},{"t":11512,"text":"have to maintain something that wasn't properly installed? Which I"},{"t":11515,"text":"think would be a fair criticism. So this assumes it's"},{"t":11517,"text":"something that's properly installed. However, that would be defined by"},{"t":11520,"text":"staff. And then it makes it clear that the maintenance"},{"t":11524,"text":"would fall to the owner, whoever that is. Not to"},{"t":11526,"text":"the tenant. So it's subtle, but I don't want to"},{"t":11531,"text":"presume that the only time that a cooling system is"},{"t":11533,"text":"being installed. It's by an owner. It could also be"},{"t":11535,"text":"by a tenant. It would then leaves that material behind."},{"t":11541,"text":"Councillor Kim is the secondary of the amendment. And I"},{"t":11543,"text":"think on the amendment. Yeah. Question. Uh, just again, totally"},{"t":11549,"text":"okay if the answer. I'm asking something a bit provincial"},{"t":11552,"text":"here. Um, I have seen leases where, uh, landlords will"},{"t":11558,"text":"offer a little less on rent or, um, have a"},{"t":11562,"text":"condition where they have to do things like landscaping or"},{"t":11565,"text":"agreed to maintain a particular appliance or what have you."},{"t":11569,"text":"Um, and I'm also seeing, uh, rentals offering deals. Uh,"},{"t":11575,"text":"trying to attract new tenants. My concern here is that,"},{"t":11580,"text":"uh, a Building owner may rent out a home without"},{"t":11585,"text":"a cooling device. On the condition that the rent may"},{"t":11590,"text":"be cheaper. Uh, because they may not want to be"},{"t":11593,"text":"the ones to provide or install or what have you."},{"t":11596,"text":"So is that something this amendment has put this thought"},{"t":11600,"text":"in my head? Is that something that we can safeguard"},{"t":11603,"text":"against. That's a question that probably deals more into residential"},{"t":11608,"text":"tenancy laws than it does into the material aspect of"},{"t":11611,"text":"a particular amendment. So if staff have a comment there,"},{"t":11615,"text":"welcome to make it. If they don't, that's okay too."},{"t":11623,"text":"Click holds in. Um, so the mayor, yes, I think"},{"t":11627,"text":"that's correct that that starts to get into specific tendency"},{"t":11630,"text":"agreements and residential tenancy act, but, um, but if we're"},{"t":11634,"text":"going to be coming back with a written report on"},{"t":11636,"text":"this for you, we could certainly look into that and"},{"t":11639,"text":"bring back any answers that we find on that. Very"},{"t":11642,"text":"good. Thank you. And further, just also worth just, you"},{"t":11647,"text":"know, zooming out a little bit and, you know, the"},{"t":11650,"text":"intent really of, of recommendation 1A and B is really"},{"t":11653,"text":"around the removing the barriers, right? And so it's still"},{"t":11658,"text":"a lot of the onus is on, you know. Either"},{"t":11662,"text":"the tenant to install, you know, a portable cooling device"},{"t":11666,"text":"that works for them or where the landlord is taking,"},{"t":11670,"text":"taking steps or already has a building that, you know,"},{"t":11673,"text":"has some sort of mechanized cooling that ensuring that those"},{"t":11676,"text":"systems are maintained and proper working conditions. So I guess"},{"t":11680,"text":"it's, it's just, you know, we're about the first part"},{"t":11683,"text":"of this recommendation is about like removing the barriers. It's"},{"t":11686,"text":"not necessarily obligating somebody to, you know, bring in something"},{"t":11690,"text":"new. Right. Right. Thank you for reminding me of the"},{"t":11693,"text":"scope creep of my question. Listen, thanks. Very good. Councillor"},{"t":11697,"text":"Thompson, are you on this amendment. Uh, sorry. No, I've,"},{"t":11704,"text":"um, not on the amendment. I'm waiting for the main"},{"t":11706,"text":"motion. Sorry. Very good. I'll put you there. Uh, anyone"},{"t":11709,"text":"else on this particular amendment? Councillor Hammond. Thanks Mayor. Through"},{"t":11713,"text":"you, I'm confused by this. So the purpose of properly"},{"t":11720,"text":"means that I'm a tenant and I want to put"},{"t":11725,"text":"it in. I'm making sure that it's properly installed. Is"},{"t":11728,"text":"that the idea. But it's not, it's not, if I'm"},{"t":11732,"text":"the landlord and I'm installing it, there's already a presumption"},{"t":11735,"text":"that it's going to be properly installed. Is that right?"},{"t":11738,"text":"That is my understanding. Okay. So then, all right, so"},{"t":11741,"text":"that part I get and then installed cooling system provided"},{"t":11745,"text":"by the owner. So that's removed. Be properly maintained by"},{"t":11748,"text":"the owner. So does that mean if I as a"},{"t":11752,"text":"tenant, properly install a cooling system that I pay for"},{"t":11757,"text":"that the landlord is responsible for maintaining that good working"},{"t":11763,"text":"condition. Correct. What if I as a tenant just abused"},{"t":11768,"text":"the thing. Now you truly are getting into landlord tenant"},{"t":11774,"text":"relations. And I'm going to go to director Hudson who"},{"t":11776,"text":"has her hand up. Um, so the mayor, I think"},{"t":11779,"text":"the spirit of B, so one A is really dealing"},{"t":11783,"text":"with, you know, removing any barriers to a tenant installing"},{"t":11787,"text":"their own. I think what's maybe tripping all of us"},{"t":11791,"text":"up is the reference to cooling devices in B. I"},{"t":11794,"text":"think all we're trying to say with B is that"},{"t":11796,"text":"if there's an existing rental building that already has a"},{"t":11799,"text":"heat pump air conditioning system or another form of air"},{"t":11803,"text":"conditioning system that's in the building that we just want"},{"t":11806,"text":"to make sure that they maintain it in working order."},{"t":11809,"text":"So I sort of wonder now looking at this after"},{"t":11811,"text":"the fact of maybe, maybe it's just about removing the"},{"t":11814,"text":"term cooling devices and just focusing on the systems. I"},{"t":11817,"text":"think that's really what we're trying to get out here."},{"t":11820,"text":"But that's up to Council, of course. Sure. But I"},{"t":11825,"text":"don't know if that addresses my issue, which is that"},{"t":11829,"text":"if someone is installing it, I think they're the ones"},{"t":11832,"text":"that want to make sure that they are probably maintaining"},{"t":11835,"text":"it. And I always hate any, and again, this is"},{"t":11838,"text":"just, you're just coming back with information. So where it's"},{"t":11840,"text":"not wording on a bylaw, but I know if there's"},{"t":11843,"text":"legal, if the ambiguity, that defaults to usually something going"},{"t":11847,"text":"wrong under the law, uh, meaning, you know, meanings opportunity"},{"t":11851,"text":"for someone to strike it down. So don't we want"},{"t":11853,"text":"the people who are installing it to, it's their responsibility"},{"t":11858,"text":"to be looking, looking after it? Well, that would in"},{"t":11861,"text":"fact, if that's your opinion, you would vote against this"},{"t":11863,"text":"amendment. Right. So I'm all in favor of what we're"},{"t":11866,"text":"trying to do. I just don't want to complicate it."},{"t":11869,"text":"With this because I think that complicates it for me."},{"t":11873,"text":"Very good. Anyone else want to name the Council Garder."},{"t":11875,"text":"Mine with similar in there. I thought who's the owner."},{"t":11878,"text":"Are you talking about the tenant or the landlord. The"},{"t":11881,"text":"landlord. No, no, I know. But it wasn't exactly clear."},{"t":11885,"text":"And so it really changed the whole thing. And so"},{"t":11888,"text":"I have a similar problem to what was just mentioned."},{"t":11892,"text":"Is it, uh, and also it depends whether it is"},{"t":11896,"text":"properly installed, whether it's portable or not. And then all"},{"t":11899,"text":"of a sudden you have other things kicking in from"},{"t":11901,"text":"residential tendency act as whether or not something has been"},{"t":11903,"text":"added to a building. And so this gets into all"},{"t":11906,"text":"kinds of different things. I think that are not intended"},{"t":11909,"text":"by staff with the original wording they had. So we've"},{"t":11913,"text":"gone way beyond with this one. Uh, I understand the"},{"t":11917,"text":"intent, but the other complications in here with other acts."},{"t":11922,"text":"And I'm very worried about this. Cause someone can't maintain"},{"t":11926,"text":"what someone else has done. And of course it's not"},{"t":11929,"text":"in Star Wars because its daughters might be a company"},{"t":11932,"text":"as opposed to the tenant. So, um, I have problems"},{"t":11936,"text":"with a change of wording. I understand what is meant."},{"t":11940,"text":"But if I live somewhere, no one's going to fix"},{"t":11942,"text":"my food processor. So I think we have to be"},{"t":11945,"text":"very careful of this. As I noted and all of"},{"t":11949,"text":"those comments are perfectly appropriate and relevant and that would"},{"t":11951,"text":"indicate how you would like to vote on this amendment."},{"t":11955,"text":"Anyone else on this amendment. Seeing none, all those in"},{"t":11959,"text":"favor of the amendment. Councillor Dowell. Councillor Kim. Councillor Gardonat."},{"t":11963,"text":"Councillor Loughton, myself. And Councillor Thompson in opposition. Councillor Coleman,"},{"t":11969,"text":"Councillor Heimand and Councillor Gardner. Going back then, Council Cardona,"},{"t":11975,"text":"you still have the floor. That is adopted by the"},{"t":11977,"text":"way. Noting three in opposition. And Councillor Courage on you"},{"t":11979,"text":"still have the floor. Yeah. Just last amendment for me."},{"t":11982,"text":"So on number two, it would change to, um, continue"},{"t":11986,"text":"to monitor. Just let them, there you go. Continue to"},{"t":11989,"text":"moderate other jurisdictions and replace two with and. Consider."},{"t":11999,"text":"Opportunist implications of requiring cooling or other means. I'm adding"},{"t":12004,"text":"after the word cooling. After the word cooling. Or other"},{"t":12011,"text":"means of ensuring that at least one building in a"},{"t":12014,"text":"MURB. Does not exceed 26C. Oh, sorry. What did I"},{"t":12020,"text":"say? Well at least one room. Yeah one room. One"},{"t":12023,"text":"room in a, in a merb. Multi unit residential building."},{"t":12030,"text":"Multi residential building. One room and a suite."},{"t":12040,"text":"Councillor Thompson, they would be helpful if you allowed Council"},{"t":12042,"text":"Caradona to complete. Councillor Cardona. Would you like to cook"},{"t":12045,"text":"me? Multi - unit could be multi - unit residential."},{"t":12048,"text":"Multi - residential, multi - unit residential government. Does not"},{"t":12051,"text":"exceed 26C. So after the word building does not exceed"},{"t":12056,"text":"26 degrees. 26 degrees. 26C."},{"t":12069,"text":"Check out the zero and 206. Thank you. That looks"},{"t":12075,"text":"good. Good run. Is that what you intend? Yeah. Is"},{"t":12077,"text":"there a secondary for that amendment? Yes, Mr. Howard. You're"},{"t":12082,"text":"the mayor for clarification. Are we talking about one room"},{"t":12087,"text":"in dwelling units within multi - unit residential buildings or"},{"t":12090,"text":"just one room? Let's update that. At least one room"},{"t":12094,"text":"per dwelling or something. Well, the way it had formally"},{"t":12098,"text":"read it would be like a common room. Right. Okay."},{"t":12101,"text":"One room per dwelling. Just trying to align it with"},{"t":12105,"text":"the PC building code language. Just approximately. Yep. That makes"},{"t":12110,"text":"sense. Is there a seconder for that amendment? Council Kim"},{"t":12115,"text":"is secondary. Councillor Codonon, your amendment. PRIA. Thank you. So"},{"t":12117,"text":"changing the to an and to me when I was"},{"t":12121,"text":"reading number two as it was written, it's more just"},{"t":12124,"text":"like an ongoing jurisdictional scan. Whereas this amendment makes it"},{"t":12129,"text":"both a jurisdictional scan. And we should be considering opportunities"},{"t":12132,"text":"implications. Somewhat separate from the jurisdictional scan. And added in"},{"t":12136,"text":"the other language to align it more closely with the"},{"t":12138,"text":"BC building code for new construction. But also to not"},{"t":12142,"text":"lose sight of what we're trying to do here, which"},{"t":12144,"text":"is not exceed 26C. And I know that that's up"},{"t":12146,"text":"in the title, but it doesn't appear anywhere in the"},{"t":12149,"text":"actual motion itself. And I think it should be in"},{"t":12151,"text":"there because that's what the intent of all of this"},{"t":12153,"text":"has been. So partly it's just about clarification. Very good"},{"t":12158,"text":"Councillor Kim is the secondary of the amendment. Nothing to"},{"t":12160,"text":"add anyone else on this amendment. So online. Nope, we're"},{"t":12165,"text":"good. All right. On this amendment, all those in favor."},{"t":12172,"text":"All right. Councillor Dell. Councillor Kim. Council Cardinette Councillor Loughton."},{"t":12177,"text":"Myself. Councillor Coleman. Councillor Hammond and Councillor Thompson. And in"},{"t":12181,"text":"opposition. You're also in favor. Okay. Council Guard is well."},{"t":12185,"text":"Sorry. I always look for hands to determine whether or"},{"t":12187,"text":"not we need to call them out because I don't"},{"t":12190,"text":"want to miss anyone in opposition. But that is unanimous."},{"t":12193,"text":"Closer Codonia, you still have the floor. That's it. Thank"},{"t":12195,"text":"you. All right. Councillor Thompson, you're up next on the"},{"t":12199,"text":"main motion as amended. Thanks Mayor. Yeah. I wanted to,"},{"t":12204,"text":"uh, circle back to, um, barriers to passive and looking"},{"t":12210,"text":"at number one, um, are there forget the language of"},{"t":12216,"text":"number one for now? Are there any practices that staff"},{"t":12220,"text":"know about where building owners or landlords do actively prevent,"},{"t":12226,"text":"um, passive means. Is that a risk. Tractor Hudson, do"},{"t":12233,"text":"you know that. Again, that does beer fairly heavily into"},{"t":12242,"text":"residential tennis tree laws. But if you have any information"},{"t":12245,"text":"on that, it would be welcome. Through the mayor, I"},{"t":12249,"text":"think the only thing we would be aware of that"},{"t":12252,"text":"could possibly be a barrier is putting things in windows,"},{"t":12256,"text":"but that's really all that we can think of. I"},{"t":12258,"text":"mean, when people are coming forward with building new buildings"},{"t":12263,"text":"or renovations or additions to their buildings and their proposing"},{"t":12267,"text":"passive, you know, design features, I think that's certainly welcomed"},{"t":12270,"text":"with open arms. So it may be about how buildings"},{"t":12273,"text":"are being manipulated through window, uh, installments. That would be"},{"t":12278,"text":"the only thing we can think of. Okay. Coach Johnson"},{"t":12281,"text":"through the mayor. It's Stacey grub, the city solicitor, um,"},{"t":12288,"text":"in my conversations with new Westminster, um, I was made"},{"t":12291,"text":"aware that there were, um, landlords in that jurisdiction actively"},{"t":12296,"text":"blocking the use of passive cooling devices, um, within, for"},{"t":12301,"text":"their tenants. And that was one of the reasons why"},{"t":12304,"text":"their council looked at this motion. It was grocery. You're"},{"t":12308,"text":"chiming in from your legal perspective is that legal. To"},{"t":12315,"text":"passively, to prevent them. I would, I'm not sure. I"},{"t":12321,"text":"haven't looked at the, the legislation on that. I would"},{"t":12324,"text":"say that it probably beers into residential tenancy issues. Okay."},{"t":12328,"text":"Thank you for that. As well. Councillor Thompson. Okay. A"},{"t":12333,"text":"question for staff. As you look at preparing the amendments"},{"t":12338,"text":"to the rental property standards of maintenance bylaw. Just thinking"},{"t":12342,"text":"about that process. It'll be addressing, uh, mechanical equipment. Would"},{"t":12348,"text":"it be difficult to draft that in such a way"},{"t":12351,"text":"that it all, that it says, and also passive means."},{"t":12357,"text":"Dr. Hudson. Through the mayor, um, if Council gives us"},{"t":12366,"text":"the direction to do this, we will be working together"},{"t":12370,"text":"with our, with our legal services team on any bylaw"},{"t":12374,"text":"amendments. So we could certainly consider the wording. And if"},{"t":12376,"text":"that is the objective of Council, we can think about"},{"t":12378,"text":"how we would do that. Coach Johnson. Would you need,"},{"t":12385,"text":"would you, in order to pursue that, to pursue, um,"},{"t":12389,"text":"prohibiting the barriers to passive, would you need language added"},{"t":12393,"text":"to this motion or would you consider it that, you"},{"t":12396,"text":"know, you've clearly heard the intention of Council around passive"},{"t":12399,"text":"heating. And you would bring it back. Do you need"},{"t":12402,"text":"wording. Dr. Hudson, do you need us to add an"},{"t":12405,"text":"amendment or have you understood that to be inclusive in"},{"t":12407,"text":"the phrase cooling devices? So the mayor, no, I think"},{"t":12410,"text":"we've heard that loud and clear. So we'll, we'll certainly"},{"t":12412,"text":"consider that as part of this work. Okay. In that"},{"t":12416,"text":"case, uh, Mayor, I don't need to bring a motion"},{"t":12418,"text":"for amendment. And I'll just comment that, uh, I'm really"},{"t":12422,"text":"happy that staff, uh, responded so quickly. And so well"},{"t":12426,"text":"to the original motion on this. And as I've said,"},{"t":12431,"text":"um, you know, a home shouldn't be a dangerous place."},{"t":12435,"text":"And this, uh, this, uh, this motion will help us"},{"t":12438,"text":"to achieve that. Thank you. Thank you very much. Anyone"},{"t":12441,"text":"else on the now amended motion. Council Coleman. Thank you."},{"t":12448,"text":"Um, I support this, but we, it's a bad pun,"},{"t":12452,"text":"but we've made heavy weather of it. Um, the reality"},{"t":12455,"text":"is what we're asking Staff to do is go away"},{"t":12458,"text":"and bring back some assessment of what could work. We've,"},{"t":12463,"text":"through this discussion, wandered into, we need passive first cooling"},{"t":12467,"text":"strategies because they're better. But we don't know that. We"},{"t":12470,"text":"actually need to do some research on it. And it"},{"t":12473,"text":"reminded me of a time before we raised the souk"},{"t":12477,"text":"dam, we were trying to do water conservation. And one"},{"t":12480,"text":"of the goals was every, so this is great. Put"},{"t":12483,"text":"a brick in your toilet tank. Because that makes you"},{"t":12487,"text":"use less water every time you flush. A couple of"},{"t":12490,"text":"years later, they started finding a great deal of grit"},{"t":12493,"text":"in the sewer lines because the bricks were breaking down."},{"t":12498,"text":"What I think we're asking for is staff to go"},{"t":12501,"text":"and bring back a compendium of different options that are"},{"t":12504,"text":"available to us to make sure that the housing units"},{"t":12508,"text":"for all our citizens are safe. That's the direction we"},{"t":12511,"text":"should be giving. And we are trying to tie it"},{"t":12513,"text":"up with as many things that we're concerned about. We're"},{"t":12517,"text":"not going to get to a perfect solution. We're going"},{"t":12519,"text":"to learn as we go through the process. And the"},{"t":12522,"text":"report isn't coming back to us. It's coming back to"},{"t":12524,"text":"the next council. We may be here. We may not"},{"t":12526,"text":"be. So let's staff go do their work. I don't"},{"t":12530,"text":"try and constrain them too much. I appreciate the fact"},{"t":12532,"text":"that they will bring back information to us or whoever"},{"t":12535,"text":"succeeds us. Thank you Councillor Gardner. Thank you. Supreme Weather"},{"t":12541,"text":"Heat events and the impact on our residents are important."},{"t":12544,"text":"We received many emails from people, uh, with relatives or"},{"t":12549,"text":"some relatives of very elderly and care. Describing conditions that"},{"t":12552,"text":"need to be addressed. We've also received emails identifying the"},{"t":12555,"text":"problems with a regulatory approach. Today's staff has spoken of"},{"t":12559,"text":"many of the issues raised during the May 24 discussion."},{"t":12565,"text":"And staff have effectively taken the issue into reality identifying"},{"t":12570,"text":"possible implications which might negatively impact tendencies. Heat wave is"},{"t":12576,"text":"serious. Loss of tenancy due to landlord selling a property"},{"t":12579,"text":"could even be worse. The amendment, uh, I found to"},{"t":12583,"text":"be somewhat problematic, but the motion is an exploration to"},{"t":12588,"text":"explore and report back of the options that may assist"},{"t":12594,"text":"our residents, especially those who are living in very old"},{"t":12597,"text":"billings that don't have modern, um, air conditioning. And the"},{"t":12603,"text":"problem needs to be addressed, but the city also needs"},{"t":12605,"text":"to tread softly. So thank you, Staff. Thank you very"},{"t":12609,"text":"much. Councillor Kim. Thank you. Through the chair, uh, concluding"},{"t":12616,"text":"remarks here. First, um. So not your jurisdiction, but I"},{"t":12622,"text":"will just say it. It drives me bonkers when landlords"},{"t":12625,"text":"won't let tenants dry things on balconies and decks for"},{"t":12630,"text":"optics. But if you got to run the dryer on"},{"t":12633,"text":"a hot summer day, well then that's just running counter"},{"t":12636,"text":"to this. So just like, again, those sort of edge"},{"t":12639,"text":"cases that we don't necessarily think of, um, uh, yeah,"},{"t":12644,"text":"it would really love, uh, and encourage talking to renters"},{"t":12647,"text":"of all varieties. Um, as you do this work. Uh,"},{"t":12651,"text":"secondly, I wanted to give a shout out that, um,"},{"t":12654,"text":"I think you should know that this work is already"},{"t":12655,"text":"being recognised by the climate caucus, a national group. And"},{"t":12659,"text":"it is already being broadcast, uh, to municipalities across the"},{"t":12663,"text":"country. So congratulations on being at the forefront of that."},{"t":12666,"text":"And then, um, third, uh, just reflecting on my colleagues"},{"t":12670,"text":"comments, um, I encourage staff to push back on council"},{"t":12678,"text":"where things are just not, again, the scope creep. However,"},{"t":12686,"text":"when you embark on barrier breaking work like this that"},{"t":12691,"text":"hasn't necessarily been done before because we're responding to new"},{"t":12696,"text":"contexts that we are as frankly as humans have never"},{"t":12700,"text":"faced before, I recognise that that brings a unique set"},{"t":12705,"text":"of challenges and, um, while I encourage you to push"},{"t":12708,"text":"back, I would also ask that, uh, you also, uh,"},{"t":12713,"text":"encourage counsel to work with you, uh, to come to,"},{"t":12719,"text":"um, something that can be modelled going forward. Being among"},{"t":12722,"text":"the first to do something like this makes landing on"},{"t":12726,"text":"perfection near impossible. Um, and I recognise that. And this"},{"t":12731,"text":"is not a challenge that I would have loved to"},{"t":12733,"text":"take on. So I'm glad it's you three instead. Um,"},{"t":12736,"text":"but, uh, yeah, it's, there's a lot to tackle. And"},{"t":12742,"text":"you are among the first to tackle this, um, my"},{"t":12745,"text":"hat goes off to you for, um, navigating, managing our"},{"t":12751,"text":"expectations around that too. Thanks. Thank you. Anyone else. Wants"},{"t":12759,"text":"to get another comments. The motion's on the floor as"},{"t":12761,"text":"amended. All those in favor. Is anyone opposed? That is"},{"t":12767,"text":"unanimous. Thank you very much for that. Thank you for"},{"t":12769,"text":"all of your work. And good luck to you. That"},{"t":12774,"text":"does take us on to the next item on our"},{"t":12776,"text":"agenda. That is item G2. And that is the economic"},{"t":12782,"text":"and employment land solutions presentation of Lubistra McLean is in"},{"t":12788,"text":"the, yes, there you are. Why don't you come on"},{"t":12790,"text":"up with your colleague and while you're getting settled, I'm"},{"t":12793,"text":"going to ask, um, Ms. Ruder or Mr. Kingsley to"},{"t":12796,"text":"put on the screen before we address the matter at"},{"t":12799,"text":"hand, the motion that I sent to you earlier today."},{"t":12805,"text":"I'll explain why once it comes onto the screen."},{"t":12821,"text":"Thank you. As I understand it, a member of council,"},{"t":12824,"text":"I believe Councillor Gardner would like to propose as it"},{"t":12827,"text":"explains here that the procedures bylaw under which we usually"},{"t":12831,"text":"operate be suspended specifically in regard to the amount of"},{"t":12834,"text":"time that is allotted for each Council member to speak"},{"t":12837,"text":"to a particular item. And that that should be extended"},{"t":12840,"text":"from 10 minutes to 15 minutes specifically for item G2,"},{"t":12844,"text":"which is the item that we are about to address."},{"t":12846,"text":"Councillor Gardner, if this is suitable, this is the proper"},{"t":12849,"text":"procedural motion for you to make. If you would like"},{"t":12852,"text":"to do so, you are welcome to do so. I"},{"t":12853,"text":"thought it would be helpful to draft something for your"},{"t":12856,"text":"consideration. Mayor. Thank you. Is there a secondary for this"},{"t":12861,"text":"please. Coleman Second? Thank you very much. So Councillor Gardner,"},{"t":12868,"text":"if you could speak briefly only to the motion to"},{"t":12871,"text":"suspend the rules, not to the content of the upcoming"},{"t":12875,"text":"item. Thank you. Thank you, Mayor. This is an ominous"},{"t":12880,"text":"report before us and it actually concerns four distinct policies,"},{"t":12884,"text":"which is the doubling of density, uh, delegating. And of"},{"t":12889,"text":"course, the discussion of old town, which is not very"},{"t":12892,"text":"clear, uh, the subsidizing of private sector businesses through tax"},{"t":12897,"text":"shifts and altering, um, the process for private sector events."},{"t":12903,"text":"And, uh, each of the items deserves thorough discussion. And"},{"t":12907,"text":"right now we're kind of overshadowed by one. But I"},{"t":12910,"text":"hope the others can receive it. Now the proposal for"},{"t":12913,"text":"an additional five minutes is acceptable to me. I dare"},{"t":12916,"text":"not suggest more. Again. Given the interpretation by BC political"},{"t":12920,"text":"watch when I randomly suggested seven minutes, uh, our industrial"},{"t":12925,"text":"land discussion on June 25th. So thank you Mayor for"},{"t":12928,"text":"presenting this. You're most welcome Councillor Coleman is the second"},{"t":12931,"text":"or anything to add. I think that. Anyone else wished"},{"t":12936,"text":"a comment on simply the motion to suspend the rules"},{"t":12939,"text":"of procedure as it pertains through time limits with regards"},{"t":12942,"text":"specifically to item G2, any other comments? Councillor Dell. Sure,"},{"t":12947,"text":"I'll just speak against this. We all have 10 minutes."},{"t":12950,"text":"That's 90 minutes total, which was take us to 330."},{"t":12952,"text":"Just for the public, that does not include staff time."},{"t":12955,"text":"So the presentation will not be in there and all"},{"t":12957,"text":"the questions we ask of staff don't count towards that."},{"t":12959,"text":"So I don't see any need to go beyond probably"},{"t":12961,"text":"well over two hours on this. I think most of"},{"t":12963,"text":"us this term have made our points and well under"},{"t":12965,"text":"10 minutes. If we have read the material, uh, done"},{"t":12968,"text":"our work ahead of time in 15 minutes is not"},{"t":12970,"text":"needed. So I'll be opposing this. Thank you very much."},{"t":12974,"text":"Anyone else on the motion on the table. Sicking online."},{"t":12978,"text":"Nope. Okay. All those in favor. Of the motion to"},{"t":12984,"text":"extend. That would be Councillor Caridona Councillor Lauten myself, Councillor"},{"t":12988,"text":"Coleman, Councillor Hammond and Councillor Gardner in opposition. Councillor Dell,"},{"t":12994,"text":"Councillor Kim and Councillor Thompson. Noting three in opposition, uh,"},{"t":12998,"text":"that motion is adopted. And so for this item only,"},{"t":13002,"text":"Council will be allowed up to 15 minutes for their"},{"t":13004,"text":"questions and comments. And as was noted previously, this is"},{"t":13007,"text":"not include staff presentation or answer time. So with that"},{"t":13011,"text":"noted, I will adjust the timekeepers clocks. And I will"},{"t":13014,"text":"turn it over to staff. I believe led by Mr."},{"t":13016,"text":"McClain for your presentation on this matter. Or where do"},{"t":13019,"text":"you, sir? Uh, thank you Mayor and hello mayor and"},{"t":13029,"text":"Council. I am Senior Pioner Malcolm McClain. And here to"},{"t":13031,"text":"present to you today on our report on economic and"},{"t":13034,"text":"employment LAN solutions. These solutions are used to speak up"},{"t":13037,"text":"a little bit. You're a bit faint. Absolutely. Thank you."},{"t":13040,"text":"Uh, these solutions are quick actions aligned with city policy"},{"t":13043,"text":"that we're able to recommend immediately proceeding with. To start"},{"t":13048,"text":"with a bit of background, the effects of national and"},{"t":13051,"text":"global economic challenges are being felt across many Canadian cities"},{"t":13054,"text":"and around the world. Uh, the global challenges include trade"},{"t":13057,"text":"disruption and changes in how and where we work. Uh,"},{"t":13060,"text":"and I know where the issue in Canada is especially"},{"t":13063,"text":"high construction costs, which are challenging the viability of various"},{"t":13066,"text":"forms of development. Despite the challenges, Victoria has major economic"},{"t":13071,"text":"strengths to build on. Our deep water harbour and established"},{"t":13074,"text":"marine industry are set to grow amidst major federal investment"},{"t":13077,"text":"in defence. Our renowned quality of life attracts businesses and"},{"t":13081,"text":"tourism. Our well - established downtown core is a desirable"},{"t":13086,"text":"place, both for tourism and employment. The recent official community"},{"t":13089,"text":"plan update and zoning modernization has improved certainty for residential"},{"t":13093,"text":"development throughout the city. This is, uh, reduced risk and"},{"t":13097,"text":"timeline related costs for building housing throughout Victoria. However, this"},{"t":13100,"text":"level of certainty has not yet been achieved for all"},{"t":13103,"text":"of Victoria's employment and economic lands. Uh, achieving this will"},{"t":13106,"text":"require a comprehensive planning process. Um, and we envision bringing"},{"t":13111,"text":"forward a recommended approach for this later this year. In"},{"t":13115,"text":"the meantime, this report focuses on immediate actions that the"},{"t":13118,"text":"city can take to support economic and employment land development."},{"t":13125,"text":"So the first solution is an increase in density within"},{"t":13128,"text":"the central business district zone, or zones, I should say,"},{"t":13131,"text":"to permit a maximum of 5. 5 to one floor"},{"t":13134,"text":"space ratio for non - residential development. This helps to"},{"t":13138,"text":"improve the window of opportunity. We're currently seeing for hotel"},{"t":13140,"text":"development. Um, by eliminating the need for rezoning process within"},{"t":13145,"text":"the central business district. The greater certainty and simpler approval"},{"t":13148,"text":"process helps to reduce risk and financing costs. Over the"},{"t":13152,"text":"long term, permitting increased non - residential density within the"},{"t":13156,"text":"central business district will also support employment to other forms"},{"t":13159,"text":"of employment, development. To be clear, these changes would apply"},{"t":13164,"text":"only within the central business district. Uh, no zoning changes"},{"t":13169,"text":"proposed to height or density within the old town district."},{"t":13172,"text":"Uh, zone. So the next solution relates to addressing adding"},{"t":13179,"text":"three new uses to the central business district zones and"},{"t":13182,"text":"the old town district zone. These are light industrial or"},{"t":13186,"text":"artisanal, laboratory and veterinary uses. These uses align with fast"},{"t":13191,"text":"growing sectors of our economy, including the life sciences sector."},{"t":13195,"text":"Uh, and in addition to supporting development of new buildings"},{"t":13199,"text":"pursuant to these uses, this change also helps expand the"},{"t":13202,"text":"potential for renewal of vacant office space downtown. For clarity,"},{"t":13207,"text":"while we are proposing to add uses to the old"},{"t":13209,"text":"town district zone, no height or density changes are proposed"},{"t":13212,"text":"to the old town district zone. We're also recommending to"},{"t":13218,"text":"update policies in the downtown core area plan. Uh, this"},{"t":13222,"text":"would provide flexible guidance for allowing the city to add"},{"t":13225,"text":"to consider rezoning applications for a density above three to"},{"t":13229,"text":"one floor space ratio in old town and the inner"},{"t":13232,"text":"harbour district. As long as Heritage and other policy objectives"},{"t":13235,"text":"are upheld. For clarity, rezoning applications, um, in this area"},{"t":13242,"text":"would need to demonstrate alignment with the policies and the"},{"t":13245,"text":"official community plan in the downtown core area plan, uh,"},{"t":13248,"text":"the old town design guidelines, the downtown core design guidelines"},{"t":13252,"text":"and the standards and guidelines for the conservation of historic"},{"t":13255,"text":"places in Canada. To further clarify, these policy updates allow"},{"t":13259,"text":"consideration of development applications that rehabilitate historic buildings or involve"},{"t":13264,"text":"new development on properties where heritage merit is not identified."},{"t":13271,"text":"Another important solution we're recommending is a revitalization tax exemption"},{"t":13275,"text":"program to support the economic revitalization of Victoria through spurring"},{"t":13279,"text":"new hotel development. The destination greater Victoria Hotel Development report"},{"t":13284,"text":"and related analysis is indicating that we are seeing a"},{"t":13287,"text":"window of opportunity for hotel development in Victoria. Um, and"},{"t":13291,"text":"this is partly due to high construction costs and otherwise"},{"t":13295,"text":"challenging market conditions deterring investment in office and high rise"},{"t":13299,"text":"residential development right now. Um, meanwhile, the business case for"},{"t":13302,"text":"hotel development is improving as we see, um, hotel rooms"},{"t":13306,"text":"getting more scarce in Victoria and demand for visitor accommodation"},{"t":13309,"text":"increasing. Even in this window of opportunity, the remains a"},{"t":13313,"text":"small viability gap for hotel development. And analysis is showing"},{"t":13317,"text":"that an RTE program can help close this gap. The"},{"t":13321,"text":"recommended RTE program would expire in 2035 or earlier, uh,"},{"t":13326,"text":"if the objective noted in the official community plan to"},{"t":13328,"text":"see 1500 new hotel rooms developed is realised. So the"},{"t":13335,"text":"hotel development report estimated that new hotel development will contribute"},{"t":13339,"text":"significantly to economic revitalization in Victoria. They noted 2000 new"},{"t":13345,"text":"hotel rooms could create over 2, 700 direct and indirect"},{"t":13348,"text":"jobs, 85 million in annual wages, 100 million in annual"},{"t":13353,"text":"visitor spending and almost 50 million in annual tax revenue"},{"t":13356,"text":"to various levels of government. So assuming 1500 new hotel"},{"t":13359,"text":"rooms, I realised in Victoria, as is envisioned in the"},{"t":13362,"text":"official community plan, this would realise approximately three quarters of"},{"t":13366,"text":"this economic revitalization effect within the City of Victoria. The"},{"t":13372,"text":"tax exemption is proposed to apply only to the incremental"},{"t":13375,"text":"value increase created by Hotel Development. So this means the"},{"t":13379,"text":"property would continue paying tax on the pre - construction"},{"t":13382,"text":"assessed value. And this helps minimize any tax shift created"},{"t":13388,"text":"by the exemption. So this approach is designed to help"},{"t":13391,"text":"keep the proportion of taxes that other properties pay. Equivalent"},{"t":13395,"text":"to what they would be paying, whether there was a"},{"t":13397,"text":"hotel development on a site or not. The incentive for"},{"t":13400,"text":"hotel development comes from the delay in taxing the incremental"},{"t":13403,"text":"value increase. Meanwhile, the closest possible to a net neutral"},{"t":13408,"text":"effect on the rest of the tax base, regardless of"},{"t":13410,"text":"whether there is or is an hotel developed. By spurring"},{"t":13415,"text":"hotel development through the RTE program, the community benefits both"},{"t":13418,"text":"from the economic revitalization effect, uh, of new hotel development."},{"t":13422,"text":"And eventually from the greater share of property taxes that"},{"t":13425,"text":"the hotel begins paying after the exemption expires. Last, but"},{"t":13432,"text":"definitely not least. We're also recommending to create a proactive"},{"t":13435,"text":"and streamlined permitting approach for people to host special events"},{"t":13438,"text":"on private property. This is intended to enhance economic and"},{"t":13443,"text":"cultural vitality in Victoria by removing barriers that property owners"},{"t":13446,"text":"currently face when they want to host a special event"},{"t":13448,"text":"on private property. Currently, the city has a permitting approach"},{"t":13452,"text":"for special events on public property, but no formal process"},{"t":13456,"text":"for special events on private property. So event organisers rely"},{"t":13461,"text":"on the temporary use permit process or other ad hoc"},{"t":13464,"text":"city approaches to allow them toast special events. Some examples"},{"t":13468,"text":"of PAST events, uh, that could become easier to permit"},{"t":13472,"text":"as a result of this work. Include small scale one"},{"t":13475,"text":"- off events in retail spaces such as music, theatre,"},{"t":13478,"text":"dance performances or pop - up visual art exhibits. Um,"},{"t":13481,"text":"music rehearsal recording and performance at menus like quadratic sound"},{"t":13487,"text":"markets in indoor or outdoor spaces. The carnival rights at"},{"t":13491,"text":"me fair mall and the Van Gogh exhibit, which is"},{"t":13493,"text":"pictured on screen, uh, which was hosted for six months"},{"t":13496,"text":"in a vacant parking lot and very successfully attracted visitors"},{"t":13498,"text":"from around the region. So that concludes our presentation. This"},{"t":13505,"text":"slide summarizes the recommended motions. Uh, we've discussed today. You'll"},{"t":13508,"text":"note the recommendation includes waving the public hearing. Uh, this"},{"t":13512,"text":"is our standard practice for zoning changes the line with"},{"t":13515,"text":"city policy. Um, the public hearing is not required, but"},{"t":13518,"text":"it is permitted. Uh, thank you. And we're happy to"},{"t":13521,"text":"take any questions. Thank you, Mr. McClain. We'll start with"},{"t":13525,"text":"questions as usual and unusually. I'm going to ask you"},{"t":13528,"text":"two questions to start. And these are questions that I"},{"t":13532,"text":"have flagged for director Hudson. And so I would suspect"},{"t":13536,"text":"that she may wish to answer them. If the empty"},{"t":13539,"text":"lot in old town, what can be built there now."},{"t":13546,"text":"Um, through the mayor, um. A proposal would have to"},{"t":13550,"text":"meet the zoning, first of all, for the district. And,"},{"t":13553,"text":"um, the old town zones are mixed you zones. Um,"},{"t":13557,"text":"so various uses could be built, but they would have"},{"t":13559,"text":"to be in accordance with the zone. They would have"},{"t":13562,"text":"to also be consistent with city policy. And they would"},{"t":13565,"text":"have to meet our design guidelines for old town. So"},{"t":13569,"text":"any proposal would have to meet all of those things."},{"t":13572,"text":"And in the context of this particular report and the"},{"t":13575,"text":"proposals and recommendations that staff are making, does that change."},{"t":13582,"text":"Through the mayor, know that doesn't change. Um, what we"},{"t":13585,"text":"are not proposing to change, um, the density of the"},{"t":13589,"text":"zones in Old Town. That would remain the same. We"},{"t":13592,"text":"are introducing some, um, new uses into the zone, but"},{"t":13596,"text":"not proposing to change densities. We are bringing forward a"},{"t":13600,"text":"recommended policy that we would turn our minds to, um,"},{"t":13605,"text":"proposals for hotels in Old Town, but those would be"},{"t":13608,"text":"considered on a case by case basis through a rezoning"},{"t":13611,"text":"process, similar to how we, um, handle now, uh, for"},{"t":13615,"text":"properties throughout Old Town. And again, they would have to"},{"t":13617,"text":"be assessed through all of the city policies that we"},{"t":13621,"text":"have in place and our design guidelines. Thank you. My"},{"t":13623,"text":"last question there. And in the context of these recommendations,"},{"t":13627,"text":"should they be adopted. Could a land owner demolish an"},{"t":13633,"text":"existing. Property that was designated as heritage to create an"},{"t":13639,"text":"empty space on which to build. Through the mayor, no."},{"t":13644,"text":"Somebody would not be able to do that. Um, there"},{"t":13646,"text":"are many buildings in Old Town that are protected through"},{"t":13649,"text":"heritage designation bylaws. So demolition would not be possible. Um,"},{"t":13653,"text":"also old town is a heritage conservation area. And, um,"},{"t":13658,"text":"heritage properties that are listed on our heritage register, um,"},{"t":13662,"text":"any alterations that are proposed would need a heritage alteration"},{"t":13665,"text":"permit and would have to go through that process. And,"},{"t":13669,"text":"um, so again, that would be valuated against city policy."},{"t":13672,"text":"And often in those cases, um, when we see redevelopments"},{"t":13675,"text":"for heritage register properties, we often negotiate their protection, um,"},{"t":13680,"text":"as part of that process. And then we encourage them"},{"t":13683,"text":"to actually designate their properties because they have, you know,"},{"t":13687,"text":"access to other heritage incentives if they do that. So,"},{"t":13690,"text":"um, yes, that's, they're protected essentially. And no, they cannot"},{"t":13694,"text":"be demolished. Thank you for those answers. Let us go"},{"t":13697,"text":"to questions from the rest of Council Councillor Hammond to"},{"t":13700,"text":"start Councillor Dell next. Thanks, Mayor. I promise I'll try"},{"t":13705,"text":"not to use up the 15. Um, could you go"},{"t":13708,"text":"back, which led to some ambiguity for me, which made"},{"t":13712,"text":"some reference to looking at, ah, that's it. Okay. The"},{"t":13716,"text":"second bullet, um, interim policy updates for flexibility considers increased"},{"t":13722,"text":"density in historic commercial district Old town. So when we're"},{"t":13727,"text":"told at the outset that there would not be any"},{"t":13730,"text":"more density within Old Town, what is this getting at."},{"t":13737,"text":"To the mayor, maybe I'll start and then I'll turn"},{"t":13738,"text":"it over to the team. Um, this is a policy"},{"t":13741,"text":"proposal for the downtown corps area plan. So it's just"},{"t":13744,"text":"for consideration if there were applications for rezonings. We're not"},{"t":13748,"text":"proposing to change the density in the zoning for the"},{"t":13751,"text":"whole old town district. So that would remain at three"},{"t":13753,"text":"to one. So if something comes to us and it's"},{"t":13757,"text":"four to one or five to one or just something"},{"t":13758,"text":"different at all, that would automatically come through council. Is"},{"t":13763,"text":"that delegated? Through the mayor, that would absolutely come to"},{"t":13766,"text":"council. It would be referred to the community association for"},{"t":13769,"text":"comment. It would go to the Heritage Advisory panel and"},{"t":13772,"text":"it would come to Council for consideration. PONNER. Can I"},{"t":13775,"text":"ask on that, do you envision just on doing this"},{"t":13779,"text":"on a policy where it still must answer, um, people"},{"t":13783,"text":"still must answer two council for this. Do you think"},{"t":13785,"text":"that would still cause concerns for people who very much"},{"t":13789,"text":"want to preserve the heritage aspect of old town. Victor"},{"t":13794,"text":"Hudson. Well, through the mayor. I would say that this"},{"t":13802,"text":"is actually what our current practice is. We do see"},{"t":13805,"text":"a lot of rezoning applications in Old Town already, like"},{"t":13808,"text":"over the years. There's been many, um, applications both for"},{"t":13812,"text":"heritage rehabilitation or for, um, sites without heritage buildings to"},{"t":13817,"text":"have buildings on them. And we've, um, we've often granted"},{"t":13820,"text":"densities that are higher than three to one. Um, and"},{"t":13824,"text":"taller than 15 metres. And because it's very much contextual,"},{"t":13827,"text":"you know, old town's quite a large area. And so,"},{"t":13830,"text":"um, we really need to look at these, these on"},{"t":13834,"text":"a case - by - case basis and consider the"},{"t":13836,"text":"context in the surroundings to see what the right answer"},{"t":13838,"text":"is and really help guide applicants to come up with"},{"t":13842,"text":"solutions that will complement the Heritage Conservation area. So, so"},{"t":13846,"text":"this is very much what we do now. I think"},{"t":13849,"text":"we were just trying to be a little more explicit"},{"t":13851,"text":"in our policies that we were open to seeing hotel"},{"t":13854,"text":"developments in the city. Okay. And sort of tapping into"},{"t":13859,"text":"the notion of hotels, the building that we, um, we"},{"t":13865,"text":"rejected just over here. That was one of those things"},{"t":13869,"text":"where it came to us. It was more than Council"},{"t":13873,"text":"was interested in. And so therefore it was denied. Is"},{"t":13875,"text":"that right? Yes. Through the Marius, it didn't meet the"},{"t":13882,"text":"guidelines on the policies of the city. Thank you. And"},{"t":13885,"text":"through you, Mayor, now I have some other questions. So"},{"t":13887,"text":"I want to get to the bigger issue of the"},{"t":13889,"text":"public hearing. Would it be a problem to approve a"},{"t":13892,"text":"public hearing on this. Is there any prohibition on that."},{"t":13900,"text":"Through the mayor. No, there's, there's no issue with that."},{"t":13905,"text":"Uh, it is an option for council, uh, to have"},{"t":13907,"text":"a public hearing on this item if they wish to."},{"t":13909,"text":"Okay. Great. And through you mayor, um, then if so,"},{"t":13913,"text":"and I'm told yes, uh, first of all, maybe just"},{"t":13916,"text":"ballpark, how quickly, or sorry, when would that happen. Also"},{"t":13921,"text":"what would go ahead today and what would hold off"},{"t":13924,"text":"for after a public hearing if Council decided to have"},{"t":13928,"text":"a public hearing. Of these six items. Dr. Johnson, would"},{"t":13934,"text":"the entire piece go to a public hearing noting that"},{"t":13936,"text":"we'd have to amend it to delete number two. Uh,"},{"t":13942,"text":"through the mayor. So if Council wanted to direct staff"},{"t":13946,"text":"to schedule a public hearing on the zoning proposed zoning"},{"t":13948,"text":"amendments, those would be the piece, the part of the"},{"t":13952,"text":"recommendation that, um, could go to a public hearing. Then"},{"t":13957,"text":"we would need to add some additional. We would need"},{"t":13960,"text":"to amend the recommendation to strike out, uh, some portions"},{"t":13964,"text":"and amend others to get that direction. Um, and in"},{"t":13967,"text":"terms of timing of when that would happen, uh, if"},{"t":13970,"text":"council directed us to do that, um, we would still"},{"t":13972,"text":"need to go and prepare the bylaws, um, and bring"},{"t":13975,"text":"them forward for introductory readings, Council, uh, and then schedule"},{"t":13979,"text":"a public hearing from there. So the timing would be"},{"t":13982,"text":"dependent on when the bylaws came forward for introductory readings,"},{"t":13984,"text":"which would be, I don't know how long that would"},{"t":13988,"text":"take, at least be months from now. Practically speaking, you're"},{"t":13992,"text":"looking at later in the fall. Yeah, great. Thanks very"},{"t":13994,"text":"much, Mayor. And then on page two, um, there's reference"},{"t":13998,"text":"and it even was brought up, um, verbally, uh, current"},{"t":14001,"text":"marketing conditions are reducing the viability of office and high"},{"t":14004,"text":"rise residential development. It carries on. My question was, what"},{"t":14008,"text":"are the quote current market conditions that are reducing quote"},{"t":14013,"text":"high rise residential development? End quote which wouldn't be the"},{"t":14016,"text":"same challenges for hotel development. Mr. McLean. Through the mayor,"},{"t":14023,"text":"thanks for the question. Um, yeah, so there's, there's a"},{"t":14025,"text":"challenge that's shared across both, which is the very high"},{"t":14028,"text":"construction costs we're seeing right now, which is a major"},{"t":14030,"text":"challenge for viability of development. What's different between high rise"},{"t":14034,"text":"residential or office for that matter versus hotel development. Um,"},{"t":14038,"text":"is that we're seeing elevated inventory levels for condos right"},{"t":14041,"text":"now. And I'm, and a moderation in price, which is"},{"t":14045,"text":"kind of softening the revenue side expectations for high rise"},{"t":14049,"text":"residential development. The opposite is true with respect to hotel."},{"t":14052,"text":"We're seeing a scarcity of hotel rooms and an increasing"},{"t":14055,"text":"demand for visitor accommodation. Council him. All right. So you're"},{"t":14061,"text":"saying then because of how well hotels are doing that"},{"t":14065,"text":"there wouldn't be the same challenges for hotels, economic challenges."},{"t":14069,"text":"Through the mayor, that's correct. Yeah. Although they're both facing"},{"t":14071,"text":"high construction costs, the outlook on the revenue side is"},{"t":14075,"text":"improving for hotels and softening for high - res residential"},{"t":14078,"text":"right now. Then it's not one of the questions I"},{"t":14081,"text":"had written down, but following up on that, then why"},{"t":14084,"text":"are we looking to give them a tax holiday. Sir"},{"t":14088,"text":"Payne? Through the mayor, um, I would reference back to"},{"t":14091,"text":"high construction costs right now. We're, we're seeing that, uh,"},{"t":14094,"text":"there is, you know, a relative terms improvement in, in"},{"t":14097,"text":"hotel, viability relative to the worsening viability of other forms."},{"t":14102,"text":"Uh, but in absolute terms, there is still a viability"},{"t":14104,"text":"gap for hotel development. And that's something that the RTE"},{"t":14108,"text":"program can help to close. Okay. Thank you. Oh, I"},{"t":14117,"text":"was just wondering, and I sent this to Staff beforehand."},{"t":14121,"text":"Is it possible on page five and six, it talks"},{"t":14123,"text":"about the new floor space ratio of 5. 5 to"},{"t":14126,"text":"one. And I was just wondering if, and this, this"},{"t":14130,"text":"again, is in the, um, CBD and CBD2. And is"},{"t":14136,"text":"it possible to get a mockup of the difference of"},{"t":14139,"text":"the FSR in a couple of locations where that would"},{"t":14142,"text":"be allowed, or were we, or were we able to"},{"t":14144,"text":"do that. Mr. Clay. Through the mayor, we can provide"},{"t":14148,"text":"some illustrative examples. So some of the images we've used"},{"t":14151,"text":"in the presentation, we can describe the floor space ratios."},{"t":14154,"text":"So, uh, on the cover of the greater Victor Victoria"},{"t":14157,"text":"Hotel Development report is pictured the Magnolia hotel, which was"},{"t":14160,"text":"approved at 4. 6 to one floor space ratio. We"},{"t":14166,"text":"also know, uh, the atrium building at 1321 Blanchard was"},{"t":14169,"text":"approved at 5. 0 to one floor space ratio. And"},{"t":14173,"text":"I think that may be the only ones we have"},{"t":14176,"text":"on. Bread, yeah. And so I can just describe. I"},{"t":14180,"text":"don't necessarily have photos in the presentation, but, um, the"},{"t":14183,"text":"rotunda building, which is just a cross Douglas street from"},{"t":14186,"text":"City Hall. The zoning approval for that is split into"},{"t":14190,"text":"two parts. Um, sub areas. So the six story building,"},{"t":14194,"text":"uh, right on the corner of Douglas and Pandora was"},{"t":14197,"text":"approved at 3. 7 floor space ratio. But the taller"},{"t":14199,"text":"building that's connected to it behind, uh, was its own"},{"t":14202,"text":"kind of sub area. And that was at 5. 88"},{"t":14205,"text":"to Flurspace Ratio. Okay. So from the look of things,"},{"t":14208,"text":"they don't seem freakishly tall. You don't have to use"},{"t":14212,"text":"my wording, but, uh, it, I mean, from the illustrations"},{"t":14215,"text":"you gave and when I look at these, it doesn't"},{"t":14217,"text":"seem as though it would scare most people, I presume,"},{"t":14220,"text":"or, or have people, most people be upset by that."},{"t":14224,"text":"Is that a question? Well, yeah, okay. Sorry an observations."},{"t":14229,"text":"I should stick to question. I don't think it's quite"},{"t":14231,"text":"on. But go ahead. Okay. Thanks. Now, um, we moved"},{"t":14234,"text":"to page seven and talk about the tax exemptions. My"},{"t":14238,"text":"question is, can someone give me a ballpark example of"},{"t":14241,"text":"what taxes would be saved in such a situation. And"},{"t":14244,"text":"let me throw in the other question is how much"},{"t":14247,"text":"more can the city estimate would be shifted to other"},{"t":14250,"text":"businesses in a year or perhaps up to 10 years."},{"t":14253,"text":"And if you need me to repeat those, feel free."},{"t":14256,"text":"Mr. McLean. Thanks for the question. I understood. Uh, so"},{"t":14259,"text":"through the mayor, we can, um, kind of discuss a"},{"t":14262,"text":"hypothetical to give you some concrete figures on, on tax"},{"t":14266,"text":"exemptions. Note every site is going to be very different."},{"t":14268,"text":"Uh, in that regard, um, for the sake of an"},{"t":14270,"text":"illustrative example, if we imagine, uh, existing property, preconstruction assessed"},{"t":14276,"text":"at about six million, uh, in assessed value. And after"},{"t":14279,"text":"hotel construction, the assessed value goes to 72 million. Uh,"},{"t":14282,"text":"so the 66 million increase in value. The 10 year"},{"t":14288,"text":"tax exemption or if, if there was a 10 year"},{"t":14290,"text":"tax exemption for that, uh, value increase over those 10"},{"t":14293,"text":"years, it would be approximately 8. 4 million that is"},{"t":14297,"text":"exempted taxes during that exemption period. And, um, I'll just"},{"t":14302,"text":"add that recognising money is worth more today than it"},{"t":14305,"text":"is in the future. Uh, we've estimated that the value"},{"t":14308,"text":"of that 10 year tax exemption in today's terms would"},{"t":14312,"text":"be about 6. 1 million to the hotel owner. Okay."},{"t":14316,"text":"Um, and sorry, I think there was a second part"},{"t":14318,"text":"to the question I'm making too. How much can the"},{"t":14320,"text":"City estimate would be shifted to other businesses in a"},{"t":14323,"text":"year or perhaps up to 10 years. Through the mayor."},{"t":14326,"text":"Yeah. Thank you. Um, so the, the premise here is"},{"t":14329,"text":"that as, as little to, to no tax shift occurs,"},{"t":14333,"text":"uh, and this is, um, related to exempting only the"},{"t":14337,"text":"increase in the SS value. And so having the property"},{"t":14341,"text":"continue to pay taxes, uh, close to equivalent. Thank you."},{"t":14345,"text":"The visual is helpful here. Um, that, that kind of"},{"t":14348,"text":"dark blue at the bottom there, the SS value that"},{"t":14351,"text":"is before and after construction. Um, having the taxation continue"},{"t":14355,"text":"to, um, more or less equate to what they would"},{"t":14357,"text":"have been paying otherwise. Uh, helps to ensure that there's"},{"t":14361,"text":"as little, uh, or effectively net neutral effect to the"},{"t":14364,"text":"rest of the taxpayn community, whether the hotel developed or"},{"t":14366,"text":"not in this case, um, I can open it up"},{"t":14370,"text":"for any other comment. If I may, uh, Robert Batalla,"},{"t":14374,"text":"senior planner, Community Planning, I just wanted to maybe just"},{"t":14377,"text":"highlight a little bit more detail on the revitalization tax"},{"t":14380,"text":"exemption that one of the things the notions that we're"},{"t":14382,"text":"looking at is we've been talking about new hotels as"},{"t":14385,"text":"it was discussed through destination great at Victor Victoria, but"},{"t":14387,"text":"we also recognise that we have existing hotels in the"},{"t":14389,"text":"city. And so one of the other elements that we'd"},{"t":14392,"text":"be exploring is a potential exemption when those existing hotels"},{"t":14397,"text":"also add additional net new hotel rooms to their existing"},{"t":14400,"text":"facilities as well as had been mentioned previously or where"},{"t":14405,"text":"there's a non multi - residential building, for example, that"},{"t":14409,"text":"is converted to a hotel purpose as well. And so"},{"t":14412,"text":"it's not just about a brand new hotel, but it's"},{"t":14414,"text":"also about using existing hotels and adding to their surplus"},{"t":14418,"text":"of rooms or to their provision of rooms as well."},{"t":14420,"text":"And also the conversion of buildings as well for hotel"},{"t":14423,"text":"purposes. Okay. All right. So the good news is that"},{"t":14427,"text":"it doesn't shift on anything that is existing now. Um,"},{"t":14430,"text":"I guess what the, I don't know if I call"},{"t":14433,"text":"it bad news, but the difference operationally is that some"},{"t":14437,"text":"business in this case is hotel decides they want to"},{"t":14440,"text":"go for more than what they were before. They, they"},{"t":14443,"text":"otherwise would have paid that tax that would be extra"},{"t":14446,"text":"revenue to the city, which we all know we can"},{"t":14448,"text":"use. And yet, um, they'd be doing that on their"},{"t":14452,"text":"own because we wouldn't be giving them any exemption. So"},{"t":14455,"text":"it's, it makes sense. We're helping them along, but there"},{"t":14459,"text":"also could be, especially with the industry that we're in"},{"t":14461,"text":"the environment we're in in which the hotels are doing"},{"t":14464,"text":"well. It also could be, they're looking at the bottom"},{"t":14467,"text":"line and say, Hey, we can, we can pay for"},{"t":14469,"text":"this ourselves and we don't need any exemption. If this"},{"t":14471,"text":"wasn't brought forward. So, so what we're doing is, is"},{"t":14475,"text":"we are absorbing their risk, I suppose. We're absorbing some"},{"t":14480,"text":"of the chances that they would take otherwise. Is that"},{"t":14484,"text":"correct? Uh, thank you through the mayor. Um, I think"},{"t":14488,"text":"an important distinction here is that, um, the financial analysis"},{"t":14491,"text":"is showing the still a gap, um, in viability, uh,"},{"t":14495,"text":"and so the, without the tax exemption kind of in"},{"t":14499,"text":"theoretical terms, I'll emphasize every site's different. But, um, you"},{"t":14503,"text":"know, in what the analysis is showing is that without"},{"t":14505,"text":"closing that viability gap, we wouldn't expect to see that"},{"t":14508,"text":"hotel development, uh, or investment. And so the important thing"},{"t":14512,"text":"is, if I'm understanding the kind of question, um, that"},{"t":14518,"text":"there isn't so much a scenario where a hotel is"},{"t":14521,"text":"developed anyway without the tax exemption, uh, and that we're"},{"t":14524,"text":"not necessarily losing out on that contribution to the tax"},{"t":14528,"text":"revenue. And in fact, we're spurring that for then future"},{"t":14532,"text":"contribution to the tax base once the exemption expires. Okay."},{"t":14538,"text":"Yes. Um, through the mayor, I just wanted to make"},{"t":14540,"text":"the point that, um, when we consider revitalization tax exemption"},{"t":14545,"text":"programs, it isn't just about, um, the high construction costs."},{"t":14549,"text":"It's actually about revitalizing the area and I'm bringing in,"},{"t":14553,"text":"you know, more visitors, more jobs, better utilising, you know,"},{"t":14557,"text":"underutilized land, those kinds of things. So we're also looking"},{"t":14559,"text":"at this big picture for what's for what's best for"},{"t":14563,"text":"doing as much as we can to provide vitalize the"},{"t":14566,"text":"downtown area. So that's part of it as well. Great."},{"t":14569,"text":"Thanks. And through you, Mayor, what do we say to"},{"t":14571,"text":"other businesses who would say we also are not willing"},{"t":14575,"text":"to take the risk, um, we're just, we're close, but"},{"t":14579,"text":"we're not willing to take that risk. I can give"},{"t":14583,"text":"you, you know, the person says, I can give you"},{"t":14584,"text":"all kinds of reasons why we also help out the"},{"t":14587,"text":"economy here. Why are you singling out hotels and not,"},{"t":14590,"text":"not others who are adding, not taking away from their"},{"t":14594,"text":"base already, but who are adding, um, to their businesses,"},{"t":14598,"text":"to their buildings? What do you say to them. Mr."},{"t":14603,"text":"McLean, is this something you want to take on. Through"},{"t":14607,"text":"the mirror? Thank you. Uh, I can at least start"},{"t":14609,"text":"the comment on, I'll invite any follow - up from"},{"t":14611,"text":"my colleagues as well. Um, but I would just kind"},{"t":14613,"text":"of call back to what I mentioned at the beginning"},{"t":14615,"text":"of the presentation too, that, um, that these are, uh,"},{"t":14619,"text":"quick solutions that we're able to immediately recommend at this"},{"t":14621,"text":"point based on the analysis we've been able to undertake."},{"t":14624,"text":"And this analysis was greatly supported by the work done"},{"t":14627,"text":"by the hotel working group. Um, and so we're able"},{"t":14629,"text":"to speak with a fair amount of understanding on this"},{"t":14632,"text":"topic. And, um, that other actions would require more analysis."},{"t":14637,"text":"Okay. Thanks. I think I've only got two more questions,"},{"t":14640,"text":"Mayor. Um, one of them is the reference to the"},{"t":14643,"text":"50 million dollars of extra revenue if by putting that"},{"t":14646,"text":"correctly that would go to governments. Do we have any"},{"t":14648,"text":"idea of what portion of that would come to the"},{"t":14651,"text":"City of Victoria. Mr. McLean. Or. And we'll come back."},{"t":14662,"text":"Through the mayor, my apologies could you repeat the question?"},{"t":14665,"text":"Sure. Um, in the reading and what we had here,"},{"t":14669,"text":"it was indicating that I believe it's with the, um,"},{"t":14673,"text":"tax exemption program. It would, it would create more jobs"},{"t":14676,"text":"and more wealth and 50 million dollars would, would go"},{"t":14681,"text":"to governments during a certain period of time. And I'm"},{"t":14684,"text":"just wondering since we're one of three governments, what would"},{"t":14688,"text":"we expect or if you include the region 104, how"},{"t":14692,"text":"much of that 50 million dollars actually would come back"},{"t":14694,"text":"to the city of Victoria and to our coffers? I"},{"t":14697,"text":"see Mr. McClain wanting to start. Through the mayor. Thank"},{"t":14700,"text":"you. Yeah. I can, I can start just to say"},{"t":14702,"text":"that, um, I haven't personally seen all of the analysis"},{"t":14705,"text":"that led the destination greater Victoria report to cite that"},{"t":14709,"text":"figure. Um, and I haven't done the analysis on, on"},{"t":14712,"text":"what, you know, from all new hotel development that we"},{"t":14715,"text":"would hope to spur through this action, what the total"},{"t":14718,"text":"scale of tax revenue, we would eventually see is, um,"},{"t":14721,"text":"I'll welcome any further comment CFO Thompson without necessarily diving"},{"t":14726,"text":"into the specifics. What would be typical? Through the mayor."},{"t":14730,"text":"So just building on the previous example that was provided"},{"t":14732,"text":"to council that would in that particular case, uh, the"},{"t":14736,"text":"city's additional property tax revenue would be about 8. 4"},{"t":14741,"text":"million dollars So again, it's a hypothetical example, um, and,"},{"t":14745,"text":"uh, each property would be different. So that's probably as"},{"t":14749,"text":"best as we could, but for each hotel, I guess,"},{"t":14752,"text":"uh, potentially. This was about the 50 million dollars that"},{"t":14756,"text":"you would cited that would be extra revenues, I assume,"},{"t":14759,"text":"given to levels of, there it is. Almost 50 million"},{"t":14764,"text":"dollars in annual tax revenue to various levels of government."},{"t":14767,"text":"I was wondering how much we get in that level"},{"t":14768,"text":"of government. Not seeing anyone willing to weigh in on."},{"t":14775,"text":"Okay. So, so that's from the tourism board. Gee, they"},{"t":14778,"text":"should be more accurate. Oh, wait a second. I'm on"},{"t":14780,"text":"the tourism board. Well, I'll have to ask them. Anyways,"},{"t":14783,"text":"I think it's just, I think it's fair when we're"},{"t":14785,"text":"saying, look, we're giving these incentives for us to also"},{"t":14788,"text":"have the information on how it affects us. And I"},{"t":14790,"text":"think my last question is about from page eight. It's"},{"t":14793,"text":"about the, um, special events. And so I can probably"},{"t":14797,"text":"say Van Gogh or anything along those lines. I think"},{"t":14800,"text":"it'll all be welcomed. Music and events that like big"},{"t":14805,"text":"music events, um, that we get emails about, um, might"},{"t":14809,"text":"not always be welcomed. I'm not being a kmudin about"},{"t":14812,"text":"this. I'm just saying we get emails about this. So"},{"t":14815,"text":"do we distinguish. Super clean. Through the mayor. Thanks for"},{"t":14822,"text":"the question. Um, so this will be a part of"},{"t":14824,"text":"the work we're expecting to undertake to draw fine lines"},{"t":14827,"text":"around that. Um, but in terms of the events that,"},{"t":14830,"text":"um, we're kind of immediately able to highlight would be"},{"t":14833,"text":"easier to permit as a part of this, uh, is"},{"t":14835,"text":"generally smaller scale kind of music or performance or rehearsal"},{"t":14840,"text":"events that might be permittable. Great. Thank you, Mayor. Thanks"},{"t":14844,"text":"very much. Thank you very much. Um, that's a great"},{"t":14848,"text":"report. And the good stuff in there. So through the"},{"t":14851,"text":"mayor, um, I just want to clarify the emails we"},{"t":14854,"text":"got are concerned about old town and rezoning Old Town."},{"t":14857,"text":"Are you proposing to change the zoning to Old Town?"},{"t":14861,"text":"Should we play? Through the mayor, no. No change is"},{"t":14864,"text":"to old town. With one exception, adding uses to the"},{"t":14867,"text":"old town district, but specifically regarding heights and densities, uh,"},{"t":14871,"text":"no. Thank you. So through the mayor right now adding"},{"t":14873,"text":"increased density to old town requires a rezoning. And after"},{"t":14877,"text":"this proposal, adding increased density would require a rezoning. So"},{"t":14882,"text":"really nothing has changed between now and in the future"},{"t":14884,"text":"in terms of adding density to old town. Is that"},{"t":14889,"text":"correct? Through the mayor, that's correct regarding old town district"},{"t":14892,"text":"zone. Okay. So technically as per my understanding, the only"},{"t":14896,"text":"change is that in a report for a hotel that"},{"t":14899,"text":"might fictionally come in the future, it would say this,"},{"t":14903,"text":"this hotel does not currently would say this hotel does"},{"t":14906,"text":"not comply with current policy. And in the future, it"},{"t":14909,"text":"would likely say this building does comply with policy. Although"},{"t":14912,"text":"it still requires a rezoning. Is that essentially what this"},{"t":14915,"text":"change will make? Like a sentence change in a report."},{"t":14919,"text":"Essentially, I might offer. She was close. Can you introduce"},{"t":14923,"text":"you? Oh, I'm sorry. Thank you Mayoral to yes. My"},{"t":14925,"text":"name is Lauren close. I'm the manager of community planning."},{"t":14927,"text":"Um, the only change I would offer is that this"},{"t":14930,"text":"hotel may comply with policy because it's not just the"},{"t":14934,"text":"density policy. It must comply with a number of policies"},{"t":14936,"text":"across the downtown core area plan and the official community"},{"t":14939,"text":"plan as well. Of course. Okay. So any type of"},{"t":14942,"text":"approval coming to Council in Old Town that is above"},{"t":14945,"text":"the density is going to come to council for rezoning"},{"t":14948,"text":"with a full staff report and a full review and"},{"t":14951,"text":"a full submission to the Heritage Advisory panel. Is that"},{"t":14953,"text":"correct? Close. Through the mirror, that's correct. Okay. Thank you."},{"t":14959,"text":"Um, I received a couple emails that said, um, the"},{"t":14964,"text":"magnolia hotel is a good example of how we can"},{"t":14966,"text":"build heritage hotels in Old Town. Um, I looked it"},{"t":14970,"text":"up. It was built in 1997 at 4. 6. So"},{"t":14973,"text":"technically the magnolia hotel, which was cited as an example"},{"t":14976,"text":"of a good heritage building, um, is not compliant with"},{"t":14981,"text":"our policies right now and would also need to come"},{"t":14983,"text":"to Council for a rezoning if it was brought forward"},{"t":14987,"text":"today. And if it was brought forward after these proposals,"},{"t":14990,"text":"if they were approved. Is that correct? It was close."},{"t":14995,"text":"Um, through you mayor Alto, that's correct. I would assume"},{"t":14999,"text":"that the Council of the day ultimately found that on"},{"t":15002,"text":"balance. It was compliant with policy. Um, and that the"},{"t":15005,"text":"density made sense because the hotel achieved a number of"},{"t":15008,"text":"other objectives. Right. Yeah. It's funny because that's almost 30"},{"t":15012,"text":"years ago now. Does Staff go back on those applications"},{"t":15017,"text":"to go, why did 30 years ago we approve overly"},{"t":15020,"text":"dense hotel that's kind of beloved by residents? Do we"},{"t":15023,"text":"look back at that? I find that just kind of"},{"t":15024,"text":"funny 30 years later. It's, it's, uh, perhaps even more"},{"t":15028,"text":"controversial to build them. They can only hotel. Or do"},{"t":15031,"text":"we just chalk that up to history. And don't look"},{"t":15034,"text":"at it? Through mayoral to, um, maybe I'll just dwell"},{"t":15036,"text":"back on, on, on, uh, previous project I was involved"},{"t":15039,"text":"here that would came before a number of members of"},{"t":15041,"text":"Council here. And that was when we did the update"},{"t":15043,"text":"to the old town design guidelines. I think around 2,"},{"t":15047,"text":"2017, 2019. And at the time we had a large"},{"t":15050,"text":"working group with the community heritage folks and whatnot. And"},{"t":15054,"text":"this is an example of a building that kept coming"},{"t":15056,"text":"up over and over. And is actually included in the"},{"t":15058,"text":"Old Town Design guidelines as a good example. Because it"},{"t":15061,"text":"wasn't so much about what's the density of a building,"},{"t":15065,"text":"but it's really about being a good fit, the design,"},{"t":15068,"text":"the articulation, how it relates to patterns, fenestrations, other buildings"},{"t":15073,"text":"within the area. And so that's why we keep looking"},{"t":15075,"text":"at this one is a good example. So to say"},{"t":15077,"text":"that within Old Town, there are lots of attractive, very"},{"t":15081,"text":"sensitive buildings that come in a whole range of densities."},{"t":15084,"text":"And so, you know, my colleague, Joaquin Crack, is it"},{"t":15086,"text":"not here, but I can hear him saying that density"},{"t":15088,"text":"is an outcome rather than a driver. And so it's"},{"t":15091,"text":"starting with the, how does it fit within the zoning,"},{"t":15094,"text":"the design guidelines, heritage policies, conservation policies first. And that"},{"t":15099,"text":"will determine in terms of what a potential density may"},{"t":15102,"text":"be. And so I think I just wanted to highlight"},{"t":15103,"text":"that, that this is a great example of the very"},{"t":15105,"text":"things that we're trying to achieve here. Okay. Thank you."},{"t":15108,"text":"Um, I responded to a number of folks about the"},{"t":15111,"text":"proposed change in uses, which I believe are for light"},{"t":15114,"text":"industrial veterinary and medical, I believe, adding those, um, a"},{"t":15118,"text":"folks respond and said, Oh, we actually have no concerns"},{"t":15120,"text":"about that. Like a small t - shirt printing company"},{"t":15122,"text":"in Old Town is really not the end of the"},{"t":15123,"text":"world where veterinary clinic. Where did you find these three"},{"t":15128,"text":"somewhat random? I mean, light industrial, I understand, but, uh,"},{"t":15131,"text":"laboratory and veterinary is, is kind of plucked out of"},{"t":15134,"text":"the blue. Where did you find these and what other"},{"t":15135,"text":"things did you consider. McLean. Sure. Thank you through the"},{"t":15140,"text":"mayor. I'll start us off and welcome any further comments"},{"t":15142,"text":"from a colleagues. But, um, I would just point out"},{"t":15146,"text":"these are uses that are enabled in some of our"},{"t":15148,"text":"newer zones, like the town centre and community village district"},{"t":15153,"text":"zones that were approved as part of, uh, or alongside"},{"t":15155,"text":"the OCP update. Um, and so this is kind of"},{"t":15158,"text":"harmonizing. And especially in light of, of economic projections, highlighting"},{"t":15162,"text":"things like the life sciences sector being a major growth"},{"t":15165,"text":"sector. Great opportunities to be kind of plucking the low"},{"t":15169,"text":"hanging fruit, enabling these growth sectors in areas where, uh,"},{"t":15174,"text":"little bit older zoning was just a little bit more"},{"t":15176,"text":"restrictive in the uses. I'll pause in case the colleagues"},{"t":15179,"text":"want to add more. Maybe I'll just add. When zoning"},{"t":15182,"text":"by allow 2018 was completed as well, we've also continued"},{"t":15185,"text":"to monitor its effectiveness. And these are some of the"},{"t":15187,"text":"things that we've heard and we've seen where applications have"},{"t":15190,"text":"come to the city. We realise the gaps of some"},{"t":15192,"text":"of the uses. We know people live downtown. If you"},{"t":15194,"text":"may have a small animal, you have to travel to"},{"t":15196,"text":"an industrial area to see a vet. So it's, it's"},{"t":15199,"text":"those kinds of fixes and real eggs in that when"},{"t":15201,"text":"we say laboratory, it's different than industrial. It's more of"},{"t":15204,"text":"a R and D type facility, but right now there"},{"t":15206,"text":"was some gaps and conflicts with, with some of our"},{"t":15209,"text":"zoning. So part of it has been from ongoing monitoring"},{"t":15212,"text":"and evaluation of our zoning bylaw as well. Okay. Um,"},{"t":15215,"text":"thank you very much. Um, in our term we approved"},{"t":15218,"text":"a really beautiful, you know, heritage compliant building, um, on"},{"t":15221,"text":"Johnson and government street. I think that was in maybe"},{"t":15224,"text":"2024. My understanding is the approval as we made it"},{"t":15228,"text":"is just economically viable to build as difficult to build"},{"t":15232,"text":"to the density and height. Is that essentially what you're"},{"t":15234,"text":"trying to do through this report is find out ways"},{"t":15236,"text":"that we can hit old town guidelines while also make"},{"t":15239,"text":"it economically viable to fill in spaces or replace buildings."},{"t":15244,"text":"Is that what this proposed amendment is trying to do"},{"t":15246,"text":"is like reconcile the difference in cost of building right"},{"t":15249,"text":"now with limitations that are on the special district. Mr."},{"t":15254,"text":"McLean. Uh, thank you through the mayor. Um, yes. I"},{"t":15260,"text":"think that like combined with, with all of the solutions"},{"t":15263,"text":"together, the vitalization tax exemption is an important measure to"},{"t":15266,"text":"help address some of the challenges. Um, and to, to,"},{"t":15270,"text":"to provide a comprehensive policy framework that allows us to"},{"t":15273,"text":"consider these buildings. We are just discussing the magnolia, for"},{"t":15275,"text":"instance that, um, can fit in in the right locations"},{"t":15279,"text":"with the right design solutions. Um, and not having, uh,"},{"t":15283,"text":"specific barrier of a certain density, um, restricting our ability"},{"t":15288,"text":"to consider applications that might fit. Okay. My last question"},{"t":15291,"text":"is, have been talking to some folks in the building"},{"t":15294,"text":"hotel industry, uh, one of the issues that's come up"},{"t":15296,"text":"regularly is that we have a huge amount of class"},{"t":15300,"text":"B and class C office space in the city that's"},{"t":15302,"text":"unused and nobody wants to use. So as, as workers"},{"t":15306,"text":"worked remotely, we have a lot of the space. It's"},{"t":15308,"text":"a demand for class A, but not the B and"},{"t":15309,"text":"C. And it's all over downtown. One of the challenges"},{"t":15312,"text":"is I understand is that trying to change the use"},{"t":15315,"text":"of that for say a hotel triggers, uh, BC building"},{"t":15319,"text":"code seismic issues that make it essentially unviable to use"},{"t":15321,"text":"that space. You have to update the whole size. You"},{"t":15324,"text":"get the building. And the folks that I know have"},{"t":15325,"text":"looked into to said it just never works. So what"},{"t":15328,"text":"is the city doing to possibly look at, uh, workarounds"},{"t":15331,"text":"with that work for the province so that people can"},{"t":15333,"text":"like, you know, do a pop up a quick build"},{"t":15335,"text":"hotel in empty class, see your class B office building."},{"t":15340,"text":"Example is maybe on the down in the corner of"},{"t":15341,"text":"the Yates and Douglas above the bulk barn. I think"},{"t":15345,"text":"the Scotiabank there, large office building, but sitting up to"},{"t":15348,"text":"for quite a while. Why isn't any of that captured"},{"t":15351,"text":"in this work and our staff doing anything or do"},{"t":15353,"text":"we just go that's a BC building code issue. It's"},{"t":15354,"text":"out of our control. Mr. McLean. Uh, thanks for the"},{"t":15357,"text":"questions from the mayor. That definitely is being looked at."},{"t":15361,"text":"That was something that, um, the hotel working group, uh,"},{"t":15364,"text":"considered and discussed in their hotel development report for sure."},{"t":15368,"text":"Uh, the opportunities to convert existing heritage buildings and otherwise"},{"t":15372,"text":"that, that's a something that really depends on the specific"},{"t":15375,"text":"architecture of, of existing buildings, whether they lend themselves to"},{"t":15378,"text":"that. Um, one other thing, obviously the building code is"},{"t":15382,"text":"outside of our control to modify. But what is within"},{"t":15385,"text":"our control are some of the actions presented here, um,"},{"t":15388,"text":"adding uses to help enable adaptive reuse of older office"},{"t":15391,"text":"spaces. Um, but also the heritage, um, tax incentive program"},{"t":15396,"text":"can stack with, uh, the proposed hotel viralization tax exemption."},{"t":15401,"text":"Uh, and one of the intentions of the Heritage Tax"},{"t":15403,"text":"Incentive program is to help defray some of those costs"},{"t":15406,"text":"of rehabilitating and seismically upgrading existing buildings. And so that"},{"t":15410,"text":"can help in those contexts. Okay. Thanks very much. I"},{"t":15413,"text":"appreciate all that. I'll hand it off Mayor. Thank you."},{"t":15415,"text":"Thank you very much. Um, just before we move on,"},{"t":15418,"text":"I just wanted to note that, uh, director Moore, who"},{"t":15422,"text":"works in our economic development section has provided some information"},{"t":15425,"text":"in response to, uh, Councillor Hammond's earlier question about where"},{"t":15428,"text":"does the 50 million dollar go and how's it divided?"},{"t":15432,"text":"And so she has provided these numbers that 17. 9"},{"t":15436,"text":"million dollars would go to the federal government, 15. 8"},{"t":15440,"text":"million dollars would go to the provincial government and 15."},{"t":15444,"text":"8 million dollars would come to the municipal government. And"},{"t":15449,"text":"then just before I go on to the rest of"},{"t":15451,"text":"our speaking lists, which so far as Councillor Gardner and"},{"t":15453,"text":"Councillor Loughton, I'm going to suggest we take a short"},{"t":15455,"text":"break as we have been sitting for more than an"},{"t":15457,"text":"hour and a half, which is our custom to stand"},{"t":15458,"text":"up at that point. So let us take a quick"},{"t":15461,"text":"break and return at 250, 250. And welcome back. Please"},{"t":15466,"text":"take your seats. We would like to resume our consideration"},{"t":15470,"text":"of item G2. And so up next on our list"},{"t":15474,"text":"of speakers with questions is Councillor Gardner."},{"t":15484,"text":"What were you, Councillor Gardner? Thank you. Thank you very"},{"t":15493,"text":"much. And I think everyone here and probably a lot"},{"t":15497,"text":"of other people are very relieved that no rezoning by"},{"t":15500,"text":"right is intended for Old Town. I and others missed"},{"t":15504,"text":"that in the document because it wasn't clear in the"},{"t":15506,"text":"document. And so do you have any schematics that indicate"},{"t":15509,"text":"what increases of density are intended with the decap initiative?"},{"t":15514,"text":"And where not. Mr. McClain. Through Mayora, thank you. And"},{"t":15520,"text":"yeah, so we've prepared a map to help clarify on"},{"t":15523,"text":"the right in the red colour is the central business"},{"t":15526,"text":"district zones, CBD - 1 and CBD2. And on the"},{"t":15530,"text":"left in the kind of translucent brown is the old"},{"t":15532,"text":"town district zone. And we've included some street names for"},{"t":15536,"text":"reference. Okay, but that map wasn't attached to docking. But"},{"t":15540,"text":"the zoning is way beyond that because it goes right"},{"t":15542,"text":"into James Bay. Does it not? Is this all that's"},{"t":15546,"text":"being considered in this motion? Just this map. So the"},{"t":15550,"text":"recommended changes to zoning are represented by this in terms"},{"t":15554,"text":"of the geographic extent. And so this is it. So"},{"t":15557,"text":"it does not include the decap part that goes into"},{"t":15559,"text":"James Bay. With respect to zoning proposed zoning changes, that's"},{"t":15565,"text":"correct. This is the full extent. Oh boy, would this"},{"t":15568,"text":"have been a great relief to people? Had this been"},{"t":15570,"text":"known. Okay, so brown, old town. Is not. Going to"},{"t":15577,"text":"be by right up zone. Mr. McLean. Through the mayor,"},{"t":15582,"text":"that's correct. So what we're proposing in terms of changes"},{"t":15586,"text":"to the old town district zone is to add new"},{"t":15589,"text":"uses. And those are the light industrial or artisanal laboratory"},{"t":15593,"text":"and vet. And then what is proposed for the central"},{"t":15595,"text":"business district zones on the right is also to add"},{"t":15597,"text":"those uses and to increase the density within the zone"},{"t":15601,"text":"to 5. 5 to one floor space ratio. Great. Cause"},{"t":15604,"text":"when I check the districts that were mentioned in the"},{"t":15606,"text":"document, uh, with decap, I didn't know exactly which maps."},{"t":15609,"text":"Can you please send me a copy of that map"},{"t":15611,"text":"so that I consider to others so that they understand"},{"t":15613,"text":"it. So that's great. Now has there been any consultation"},{"t":15617,"text":"with or notification of DRA or JBNA on this? Well,"},{"t":15621,"text":"not JVNA if it doesn't go beyond. Got it. With"},{"t":15624,"text":"DRA. Downtown residents association. Uh, through the mayor, I would"},{"t":15630,"text":"point to the consultation on the policies, uh, in the"},{"t":15633,"text":"official community plan and the downtown core area plan, uh,"},{"t":15636,"text":"that these changes align with, um, but specific to the"},{"t":15639,"text":"recommendations in this report, we haven't done standalone engagement. I'll"},{"t":15644,"text":"open it up. Um, for any other comment as well."},{"t":15646,"text":"Okay. So the hotels we're talking about too is only"},{"t":15650,"text":"for in this map. Mr. McLean. Uh, through the mayor."},{"t":15655,"text":"Thank you. So the, uh, proposed revitalization tax exemption program"},{"t":15659,"text":"would apply citywide. Is that on the exemption? So there's"},{"t":15664,"text":"also other discussion about hotels beyond the exemption. I think"},{"t":15669,"text":"in this document, or is that the only part of"},{"t":15672,"text":"this 10 page document that applies to hotels to the"},{"t":15675,"text":"tax exemption? Or does any of the other density discussion"},{"t":15678,"text":"apply to hotels? Uh, through the mayor. Thanks for the"},{"t":15680,"text":"question. Um, so the increase of density in the central"},{"t":15684,"text":"business district zone for reference again, that's the red area"},{"t":15687,"text":"on the right in this map is definitely intended to"},{"t":15690,"text":"remove the barrier of the rezoning process and, and help"},{"t":15693,"text":"enable hotel development if that helps answer. That's an e"},{"t":15698,"text":"- development. I'll invite other comment here. Um, if, if"},{"t":15701,"text":"I'm mayoral to just provide a little bit on clarity,"},{"t":15705,"text":"the report talks about increasing the density within the central"},{"t":15709,"text":"business district zones to support hotels. So that is only"},{"t":15713,"text":"for the geographic area that you see here in red."},{"t":15717,"text":"The area in old town in the brown does not"},{"t":15720,"text":"propose a numerical increase in density to the zone. So"},{"t":15723,"text":"the zones stay as is other than the additional uses"},{"t":15726,"text":"that we've mentioned. The residential tax exemption is a separate"},{"t":15731,"text":"item is a citywide initiative that would provide the tax"},{"t":15736,"text":"exemption from new hotel, new hotel rooms at a citywide"},{"t":15739,"text":"area. And it doesn't get into densities. It's simply around"},{"t":15742,"text":"the tax exemption program to spur the development of all"},{"t":15745,"text":"shapes and size of hotels citywide. Okay. So please, please"},{"t":15750,"text":"get me that map. That's very important. I think we"},{"t":15752,"text":"would have had a lot less angst. Have you knew"},{"t":15754,"text":"about this map? Or that was exactly all that was"},{"t":15757,"text":"restricted. Okay. Um, now I appreciate that years ago a"},{"t":15761,"text":"large consultation group was created for Old Town. And maybe"},{"t":15765,"text":"it might be useful. I know you have the, uh,"},{"t":15769,"text":"the Heritage Advisor Committee, but it might be useful to"},{"t":15771,"text":"have a bit of a discussion on that. Once we"},{"t":15775,"text":"get the bylaw going on or that you're into the"},{"t":15777,"text":"draft stage, uh, cause I don't want the same kind"},{"t":15780,"text":"of angst to the last three days coming up when"},{"t":15782,"text":"the bylaw comes up. And of course we'll be, if"},{"t":15785,"text":"not me, I'm sure someone else will be asking for"},{"t":15786,"text":"that waving of public hearing to be deleted from the"},{"t":15791,"text":"recommendations. Okay. Now, um, Councillor Hammond, I forgot your name."},{"t":15800,"text":"Okay. Uh, mentioned one of the skyline. Of course, you"},{"t":15803,"text":"talked about that, uh, you know, the one, um, well,"},{"t":15807,"text":"COP two or three hotels. So if it only continues"},{"t":15812,"text":"this part, I don't think we need that. Okay. Um,"},{"t":15816,"text":"now what property this is for our director of finance."},{"t":15820,"text":"So she can pay attention before I ask it. What"},{"t":15823,"text":"class property assessment cluster hotels fallender. Merk Thompson through the"},{"t":15831,"text":"mayor, so that's class six business. Sorry. Classic six. So"},{"t":15834,"text":"under business and other. Thank you. The report speaks of"},{"t":15838,"text":"attached shift. But it doesn't say where the shifts will"},{"t":15841,"text":"be. So what is intended for the PO's tax shift?"},{"t":15848,"text":"Where's it going to land to only class six or"},{"t":15851,"text":"to others? What is meant. Rita Thompson. Through the mayor."},{"t":15857,"text":"So my apologies for the wording and the report. I"},{"t":15859,"text":"think we should have clarified a bit more since the"},{"t":15862,"text":"intent is not to shift anything. It's simply delaying, um,"},{"t":15867,"text":"the collection of the new revenue. We intend to continue"},{"t":15870,"text":"to collect on the current value. So the full taxable"},{"t":15874,"text":"amount right now. Uh, and it's the incremental value only"},{"t":15879,"text":"that would, um, delayed for the period of the exemption."},{"t":15883,"text":"So they're actually in this case there would be no"},{"t":15885,"text":"shift. The delay. So is that going to be like,"},{"t":15892,"text":"sorry. Is that going to be like a loan? Or"},{"t":15894,"text":"because it's going to be a bit of a reduction."},{"t":15896,"text":"I realised I read the package and I understand that"},{"t":15899,"text":"it's going to be much smaller than one might think"},{"t":15902,"text":"you're not exempting the whole property tax. I get that."},{"t":15904,"text":"But nevertheless, so just, okay. So you're not shifting it."},{"t":15909,"text":"You're just not going to collect it. Right. That's correct."},{"t":15917,"text":"That is still unusual. Okay. Uh. Has staff, this was"},{"t":15923,"text":"alluded to, but not quite answered because the question isn't"},{"t":15926,"text":"quite the same. Has staff considered tax exemptions for any"},{"t":15929,"text":"other industry. Mr. McLean. Or director Thompson. Director Thompson, do"},{"t":15936,"text":"you know that answer? Um, through the mayor, I guess"},{"t":15939,"text":"I can start. I'll certainly invite other comment from my"},{"t":15942,"text":"colleagues. Uh, we do have a tax incentive program for"},{"t":15944,"text":"Heritage Vitalization, uh, to encourage that. Um, we also have"},{"t":15950,"text":"a revitalization tax exemption program to encourage energy retrofits and"},{"t":15954,"text":"rental buildings. Um, and, uh, I'll open any other references."},{"t":15959,"text":"Thank you. I know we have specific purpose ones, but"},{"t":15962,"text":"do we have one for particular industry like a hotel"},{"t":15965,"text":"industry? Do we have something like that. Director Thompson. For"},{"t":15969,"text":"a private sector industry, I'm not talking not for profit"},{"t":15971,"text":"social housing. Through the mayor. So the, um, well, it's"},{"t":15977,"text":"the rental properties as we're mentioned. I don't know exactly"},{"t":15980,"text":"what you mean by a certain industry. We don't have"},{"t":15983,"text":"another type of business class if that's what you're asking."},{"t":15987,"text":"But Heritage Properties, for example, is another one that we"},{"t":15990,"text":"have as an exemption, uh, program. Would we do one"},{"t":15994,"text":"for all of the, uh, brew pubs in the city."},{"t":16000,"text":"That's a question that is far beyond the material aspects"},{"t":16003,"text":"of this issue. Yes. But it's an industry thing. Okay."},{"t":16008,"text":"Old town. Thank you. Um. Sorry, these are my questions."},{"t":16014,"text":"You know old town that I made yesterday. On to"},{"t":16020,"text":"events, indoor and outdoor. Uh, you've mentioned one that was"},{"t":16024,"text":"indoor one that outdoor. And I'm familiar with both of"},{"t":16028,"text":"them. With the Van Gogh event and the major mall."},{"t":16033,"text":"Both great events and the Mayfair one, of course, is"},{"t":16036,"text":"not in the middle of a residential area. And so"},{"t":16038,"text":"there is not much impact, even though it's an outdoor"},{"t":16041,"text":"noise event, shall we say. So while events are usually"},{"t":16045,"text":"welcome, the aftermath can be problematic when they are, well,"},{"t":16050,"text":"and during an event when it's really loud, you may"},{"t":16052,"text":"recall last year we had complaints for some events going"},{"t":16056,"text":"all the way over to Oak Bay. Because the noise"},{"t":16059,"text":"volume. I realised the noise bylaw will be coming to"},{"t":16062,"text":"as soon. I'm not too sure whether it'll be in"},{"t":16063,"text":"it. And so I'm very worried about trying to speed"},{"t":16068,"text":"up processes. Although the ones you've mentioned, of course, are"},{"t":16072,"text":"great. Now recently we had some complaints about a couple"},{"t":16075,"text":"of recent events. And what it was, it was, um,"},{"t":16079,"text":"the dealings of the aftermath. Garbage, uh, things put on"},{"t":16084,"text":"poles and those kind of things. I realised this isn't"},{"t":16087,"text":"really yours. It's another department. But the, uh, policy understands,"},{"t":16092,"text":"says the event organiser must arrange for waste removal and"},{"t":16094,"text":"pickup of any additional garbage and recycling produced by the"},{"t":16097,"text":"event and those attending event, which means even perhaps the"},{"t":16103,"text":"actual place with event occurs. And these events were on"},{"t":16107,"text":"public property. So does anyone know if we're going to"},{"t":16110,"text":"be doing more in that regard? Because if we start"},{"t":16113,"text":"expanding events and speeding them up, and we haven't taken"},{"t":16117,"text":"care of some of these other items, I'm really quite"},{"t":16120,"text":"concerned. Mr. McLean, have you put any thought into that?"},{"t":16126,"text":"How much close? Um, I think, uh, through you mayor"},{"t":16129,"text":"to answer the final question I think you had, um,"},{"t":16133,"text":"the motion does not, uh, direct any changes to our"},{"t":16136,"text":"processes for special events on public property. If that was"},{"t":16140,"text":"the key part of your question, um, but we will"},{"t":16143,"text":"be considering these processes that we already have in place"},{"t":16146,"text":"as we turn our minds to what a process would"},{"t":16149,"text":"look like for hosting events on private property. Thank you."},{"t":16152,"text":"My concern was if we're not doing it and really"},{"t":16155,"text":"making sure that things are done thoroughly as the policy"},{"t":16159,"text":"says on public property, I fear that we're going to"},{"t":16161,"text":"perhaps do less when it's on private property. So I'm"},{"t":16167,"text":"just saying we have to really start watching some of"},{"t":16170,"text":"these events. Once again, please. Thank you. Okay. Other question."},{"t":16174,"text":"Uh, okay. No, that now that we've got different, okay,"},{"t":16178,"text":"I think that's questions for now, mayor. You good? Since"},{"t":16182,"text":"we have a different definition of land base. Up next,"},{"t":16184,"text":"Councillor Luton. Thanks and through you mayor. I would, uh,"},{"t":16190,"text":"I'd like to move this staff recommendation if there aren't"},{"t":16193,"text":"any other questions. I believe I have questions at least"},{"t":16195,"text":"from Councillor Coleman and Councillor Kim. So why don't we"},{"t":16198,"text":"put a pin in that? If you have questions, you"},{"t":16200,"text":"can do those now. And I'll come back to you"},{"t":16201,"text":"when we're ready. I don't have questions. I just, I've"},{"t":16203,"text":"got an amendment and I'd like to move it just"},{"t":16206,"text":"a few. So welcome back to you. Councillor Coleman and"},{"t":16208,"text":"then Councillor Kim. Thank you and through you your worship."},{"t":16210,"text":"Um, back to the tax exemption. We've had a number"},{"t":16213,"text":"of emails saying, why are you giving a specific industry"},{"t":16219,"text":"and advantage? And we've talked about, could you go back"},{"t":16222,"text":"to the graphic you have where it has the blue,"},{"t":16226,"text":"the two different types of blue."},{"t":16236,"text":"That one. Perfect. So if I understand the system properly."},{"t":16241,"text":"We will, the dark blue is the, uh. Before hotel"},{"t":16246,"text":"construction and we will tax that at a normal rate."},{"t":16249,"text":"There is construction, which is the light blue section. We"},{"t":16252,"text":"don't tax that for 10 years. Oh, up to 10"},{"t":16255,"text":"years. Whatever has decided in the process. What happens in"},{"t":16259,"text":"year 11. Mr. Flame through the mayor. Thanks for the"},{"t":16264,"text":"question. Uh, so then the entire assess value of the"},{"t":16266,"text":"property would be the basis for taxation. And what generally"},{"t":16269,"text":"has happened to the BC assessment of that property over"},{"t":16274,"text":"the 10 years. Mr. McLean. Through the mayor, sorry, can"},{"t":16280,"text":"you elaborate on that question? So the dark blue property"},{"t":16284,"text":"is assessed by BC assessment authority at a certain value."},{"t":16287,"text":"We are still practicing, we'll still tax that at the"},{"t":16290,"text":"normal rate. Over 10 years, because you've done the construction,"},{"t":16295,"text":"my assumption is, and history has borne out this, that"},{"t":16299,"text":"the value of the property has gone up. Is that"},{"t":16302,"text":"generally true. Dr. Thompson. Through the mayor. Yes, that's correct."},{"t":16306,"text":"So that darker blue portion will actually be larger each"},{"t":16311,"text":"year generally. And in year 11, if we give a"},{"t":16315,"text":"10 year tax exemption, we then get a tax apportionment"},{"t":16319,"text":"based on a property value that has gone up. That's"},{"t":16323,"text":"correct. So at some point in year, if we look"},{"t":16327,"text":"across the street, what was McDonald's furniture. We gave a"},{"t":16332,"text":"historic tax exemption for that for revitalization. It became a"},{"t":16335,"text":"TV station. And the tax exemption went with the TV"},{"t":16340,"text":"station until year 10 was hit. And then they received"},{"t":16344,"text":"an incredibly large tax bill. Is that the process and"},{"t":16349,"text":"is there a projected. Payout when we get plus revenue"},{"t":16355,"text":"over the, probably 15 or 18 years or something like"},{"t":16359,"text":"that? Is that the process? Because I think that's missed"},{"t":16361,"text":"by many people. Richard Thompson. Uh, through the mayor, if"},{"t":16365,"text":"I understand, uh, your question correctly, yes, that is the"},{"t":16369,"text":"process. They will get that very much larger tax bill"},{"t":16372,"text":"in year 11. So what we miss quite often and"},{"t":16376,"text":"what the public sometimes misses is the fact that this"},{"t":16378,"text":"is a future revenue stream where we make money over"},{"t":16382,"text":"and above the taxation that we would have had if"},{"t":16385,"text":"it just stayed the dark blue building the whole time."},{"t":16389,"text":"Is that correct? Through the mayor, correct. Thank you. Councillor"},{"t":16394,"text":"Kim. Thank you through the chair. Um. The beginning of"},{"t":16399,"text":"the presentation sets some background context, uh, you don't need"},{"t":16403,"text":"to go back. The bullet that is of great interest"},{"t":16406,"text":"to me is global challenges, global and national economic challenges."},{"t":16411,"text":"If those weren't. A factor, do you think would be"},{"t":16415,"text":"here today. Mr. McClain, that's somewhat of a conjecturing notion,"},{"t":16423,"text":"but if you have an opinion, you're welcome to share"},{"t":16425,"text":"it. But it should not be something that you feel"},{"t":16427,"text":"compelled to reply. Thank you, Mayor. Maybe I'll offer some"},{"t":16430,"text":"minor comments. That's a major hypothetical for sure. Um, many"},{"t":16434,"text":"of these solutions make sense to do, um, uh, regardless."},{"t":16438,"text":"For instance, improving our process for permitting special events, um,"},{"t":16442,"text":"would make just as much sense in a very economically"},{"t":16445,"text":"active time, um, without major challenges. Um, but I would"},{"t":16450,"text":"say these, these economic challenges certainly enhance the imperative currently."},{"t":16457,"text":"Okay. Um. Why weren't motels included in this conversation. Through"},{"t":16464,"text":"the mayor, great question. Thanks for that. And to clarify,"},{"t":16468,"text":"uh, in our zoning by lab 2018, um, motels are"},{"t":16471,"text":"defined as a type of hotel. And so as we"},{"t":16474,"text":"talk about hotels, that would be one subset. Okay. Um."},{"t":16479,"text":"Forgive my ignorance. I did a little expedia ing. And"},{"t":16486,"text":"again, based on a conversation I had today, uh, I"},{"t":16489,"text":"thought to compare hotel prices between Victoria for August 1st"},{"t":16494,"text":"to seventh this summer. With an arguably comparable sized medium"},{"t":16498,"text":"municipality new west. The prices are quite different. Um, I"},{"t":16503,"text":"understand also we are the capital city, urban context, dot,"},{"t":16507,"text":"da, da. However, given that the price of hotels in"},{"t":16513,"text":"Victoria is just so much more. Is it not that"},{"t":16517,"text":"there's a shortage so much as just people aren't booking"},{"t":16520,"text":"them. Has that been discussed. Mr McLean, I mean, again,"},{"t":16527,"text":"this is a bit beyond your responsibility areas, but I"},{"t":16530,"text":"believe you have been in conversations like this. Sure. Through"},{"t":16533,"text":"the mayor. And please follow up if I've missed the"},{"t":16536,"text":"point of the question. But one thing that, um, I"},{"t":16538,"text":"understand just from kind of looking at the destination greater"},{"t":16541,"text":"Victoria Hotel report and related information is that, um, our"},{"t":16546,"text":"average daily room rates as you were describing are relatively"},{"t":16549,"text":"high in Victoria being a tourist destination. Um, but also"},{"t":16553,"text":"our occupancy levels, our relatively high compared to a lot"},{"t":16556,"text":"of places, uh, and so there is a relatively high"},{"t":16558,"text":"booking rate of hotels. Okay. Thanks. Um, my next question"},{"t":16563,"text":"is, um. How are you planning to communicate to any"},{"t":16570,"text":"applicant enrolled in the tax exemption program. If we meet"},{"t":16574,"text":"our target within the 10 years, as was mentioned in"},{"t":16577,"text":"the presentation that there's a likely chance that the exemption"},{"t":16580,"text":"program won't go all the way to the 10 years."},{"t":16582,"text":"How do you plan to communicate that? And will that"},{"t":16585,"text":"actually impact going back to my previous colleagues question, the"},{"t":16589,"text":"long - term potential revenue stream for the city. Jealous."},{"t":16595,"text":"Uh, through mayoral, too. The revitalization tax exemption, just like"},{"t":16599,"text":"the other RTEs that the city prepares are essentially a"},{"t":16603,"text":"two - part component. One is the bylaw, which establishes"},{"t":16605,"text":"the program. And then a landowner who seeks to be"},{"t":16609,"text":"part of that has to enter into a legal agreement"},{"t":16611,"text":"with the city that outlines all the terms, conditions, requirements,"},{"t":16615,"text":"eligibility, everything. And so that's really our key tool for"},{"t":16618,"text":"that so that there's everything's quite certain and clear for"},{"t":16621,"text":"them. Right short answer. Last question. Um. I have a"},{"t":16629,"text":"concern that, uh, while I appreciate that we're trying to"},{"t":16632,"text":"bridge the viability gap, especially, I assume for, uh, less"},{"t":16637,"text":"multinational hotel corporations. Are there any safeguards in place to"},{"t":16642,"text":"ensure that those are, um, that the applicants for this"},{"t":16645,"text":"kind of, uh, policy change are indeed those smaller, uh,"},{"t":16650,"text":"hotels that will be able to maintain that sort of"},{"t":16653,"text":"boutique, old town flavour as opposed to another pick. Hilton"},{"t":16657,"text":"Marriott, whatever. Yeah. That's your, Mayoralto. Maybe I'll begin. Um,"},{"t":16662,"text":"I'm just hearkening back on the presentation from destination great"},{"t":16666,"text":"Victor Victoria to this Council. And one thing that they"},{"t":16668,"text":"made very clear is that Victoria in the region needs"},{"t":16670,"text":"a whole spectrum of different types of hotels for different"},{"t":16673,"text":"users, different needs. Um, they had categorized sort of four"},{"t":16676,"text":"different types of one being sort of mid, mid scale,"},{"t":16679,"text":"mid - rise suite hotels with kitchenets that support perhaps"},{"t":16683,"text":"longer stays. Uh, there's a gap for those. Certainly the"},{"t":16686,"text":"full service, the amenity rich downtown type hotels that we"},{"t":16689,"text":"see with meeting rooms. Small boutique hotels with high service"},{"t":16693,"text":"components as well. And also high capacity larger scale conference"},{"t":16697,"text":"hotels and event hotels. And so it's not about just"},{"t":16699,"text":"one, but it's around making sure that the market can"},{"t":16702,"text":"deliver on all of those different types. And obviously at"},{"t":16704,"text":"different price points, which is reflected by the hotel companies,"},{"t":16707,"text":"you know, a SAN man is certainly different than a"},{"t":16709,"text":"Hyatt. And, and so, um, this is open and equitable"},{"t":16713,"text":"to all of the hotel proprietors as well. So I"},{"t":16715,"text":"just want to highlight that. It doesn't get into one"},{"t":16717,"text":"specific type. It's to allow equal treatment and equal opportunity"},{"t":16720,"text":"for all of those different types. Mr. McClain. Thank you"},{"t":16724,"text":"through the mayor. I'll just add, uh, two points. I"},{"t":16726,"text":"think often we have the refrain that, that, uh, Council"},{"t":16729,"text":"and staff's purview is to evaluate an application rather than"},{"t":16732,"text":"an applicant, uh, and so we wouldn't necessarily be, uh,"},{"t":16735,"text":"distinguishing between any specific brand of, of a hotel, um,"},{"t":16739,"text":"in the application. But one other important thing that the,"},{"t":16742,"text":"um, the hotel report emphasized too is that the kind"},{"t":16746,"text":"of adaptive reuse of heritage buildings is a really great"},{"t":16748,"text":"opportunity to realise those boutique style hotels, um, and so"},{"t":16752,"text":"that's something that we're definitely encouraging with the policy and"},{"t":16755,"text":"potentially stacking tax incentive programs. Ooh, you just give me"},{"t":16759,"text":"a brainwave. Does this also include BNBs. Mr. McLean. Through"},{"t":16766,"text":"the mayor. Thanks. I'm certainly invite further comment because I"},{"t":16771,"text":"don't want to speak about our zoning definitions without grounding."},{"t":16775,"text":"But I think there may be an important distinction there,"},{"t":16778,"text":"uh, just in terms of that specific terminology. Mr. Handy."},{"t":16785,"text":"Good afternoon, Mary and Council Jim Handy, this is some"},{"t":16789,"text":"director acting assistant directed development services. Sorry, could you repeat"},{"t":16794,"text":"the question? Would everything in front of us today include"},{"t":16799,"text":"bed and breakfast. Under hotel."},{"t":16810,"text":"Perhaps through maralto. Uh, so no, bed and breakfast or"},{"t":16813,"text":"fall under a different definition within zoning byla 2018. This"},{"t":16816,"text":"would just be specific to the typical hotel and motel"},{"t":16820,"text":"type forms that we have. Okay. Um, and then I'm"},{"t":16823,"text":"thinking of the empress as an example of like quite"},{"t":16826,"text":"heritage historical, um, I don't know much about it, except"},{"t":16831,"text":"that it's literally on shaky ground. Uh, and so, uh,"},{"t":16835,"text":"does this also apply, um, revitalizing, um, seismic of preexisting"},{"t":16843,"text":"heritage on top of the heritage tax exemption. Like what,"},{"t":16847,"text":"what, how broadly can the tax exemption program be applied"},{"t":16855,"text":"to existing. Hotels. Mr. McLean, three of your thanks for"},{"t":16860,"text":"the question. So the heritage tax incentive program is definitely"},{"t":16864,"text":"intended to help address and defray the seismic upgrading, um,"},{"t":16869,"text":"and that seismic risk is a kind of key thing"},{"t":16871,"text":"related to the soft soils. Um, but the, you know,"},{"t":16877,"text":"engineering to those standards is something that creates high construction"},{"t":16880,"text":"costs, uh, and, and so more broadly the stacking of"},{"t":16882,"text":"the tax incentive program with a hotel revitalization tax incentive"},{"t":16886,"text":"program. Uh, is a part of, you know, maybe to"},{"t":16889,"text":"put this the other way, the high construction costs are"},{"t":16891,"text":"a part of the viability gap that we're recognising. That's"},{"t":16893,"text":"a contributing factor. Uh, and so that hotel tax exemption"},{"t":16897,"text":"is a part of, of seeking to spur economic revitalization"},{"t":16900,"text":"through helping to close that gap. Okay."},{"t":16910,"text":"Okay. Um, I, I want to come back to an"},{"t":16913,"text":"earlier comment that was made, uh, that yes, we're supposed"},{"t":16917,"text":"to evaluate the application and not the applicant. However, and"},{"t":16922,"text":"I don't expect an answer to this. If the whole"},{"t":16925,"text":"purpose is economic revitalization of Victoria, as has been laid"},{"t":16929,"text":"out time and time again in reports and presentations, don't"},{"t":16932,"text":"we want to support hotels that are more likely to"},{"t":16935,"text":"be more local, not multinational corporations. Those that would be"},{"t":16940,"text":"able to better reinvest in the local economy. Mr. McLean,"},{"t":16946,"text":"again, you're welcome to comment, but ultimately, I believe that"},{"t":16948,"text":"would end up being a decision of council. So that's"},{"t":16953,"text":"a policy review. I was just trying to point out"},{"t":16955,"text":"a gap in the way some of the things are"},{"t":16957,"text":"done, but you know, I think maybe if I can"},{"t":16959,"text":"just interject, and again, just going back to a lot"},{"t":16962,"text":"of this boils down to as a starting point is,"},{"t":16964,"text":"do you meet her zoning bylaws where it's about the"},{"t":16966,"text":"use, not the user? So a hotel is a hotel."},{"t":16970,"text":"We don't get into who's developing it, who owns it,"},{"t":16973,"text":"any of that. It's really about the use. And going"},{"t":16976,"text":"back to economic riotalization, the needs of destination great Victoria"},{"t":16981,"text":"is about that use of hotel motels. That's really what's"},{"t":16985,"text":"sort of before us here is how can we get"},{"t":16987,"text":"more of those without getting into the weeeds per se"},{"t":16990,"text":"or finer details that are really beyond our purview. Okay."},{"t":16993,"text":"Um, great job handling this whack of questions. Thank you"},{"t":16997,"text":"so much. Councillor Thompson. Thanks, Mayor. Um, and thanks to"},{"t":17005,"text":"staff for your, uh, work on this. And thanks for"},{"t":17008,"text":"bringing it forward. It's certainly something that we do need"},{"t":17012,"text":"to be working on. Um, I wanted to further explore"},{"t":17017,"text":"the earlier staff statement. Uh, and I'll quote no height"},{"t":17020,"text":"or density changes are proposed to the old town zone."},{"t":17025,"text":"Um, as I think staff know, um, we've received a"},{"t":17028,"text":"number of emails. Worried that this proposal removes height limits"},{"t":17033,"text":"and removes density limits in old town. We just wanted"},{"t":17037,"text":"to ask you once again, can you confirm that is"},{"t":17039,"text":"not the case. Mr. McClain through the mayor. Thanks for"},{"t":17043,"text":"confirming. That is true. We are not, uh, as a"},{"t":17046,"text":"part of this recommending changes to the old town district"},{"t":17049,"text":"zone that would change height or density. Okay. Thanks. Um,"},{"t":17054,"text":"I had another question from a, uh, or suggestion actually"},{"t":17059,"text":"from an email received that, that, uh, any changes in"},{"t":17063,"text":"density mean that the height of buildings has to change,"},{"t":17067,"text":"uh, automatically, um. And another one, um, or sorry. I"},{"t":17073,"text":"should, I should briephrase that, that you can't get, um,"},{"t":17078,"text":"FSR three without going up to six stories. Is that"},{"t":17083,"text":"correct? Mr. McClain. Through the mayor, I don't think it"},{"t":17090,"text":"can be said that simply, uh, in the sense that,"},{"t":17093,"text":"um, an FSR outcome can, can look many different ways,"},{"t":17097,"text":"uh, depending on the, uh, building footprint and the overall"},{"t":17100,"text":"design of a development and that shaped by a considerable"},{"t":17104,"text":"number of factors, including our design guidelines. Okay. Thanks. Um,"},{"t":17110,"text":"concern was raised that, um, uh, the changes would mean"},{"t":17115,"text":"that there's no guidance for decisions on zoning future decisions"},{"t":17120,"text":"that Council may make on his owning request. I think"},{"t":17123,"text":"I heard you say that's not the case. Can you"},{"t":17125,"text":"confirm that. Through the mayor, yes confirmed. There are, um,"},{"t":17130,"text":"all of the same policies and design guidelines would apply"},{"t":17134,"text":"as the due currently, um, in before and after the"},{"t":17139,"text":"recommended, uh, policy changes. Okay. Thanks. And I'm, I'm getting"},{"t":17145,"text":"these emails from people who are as far as I"},{"t":17150,"text":"know are actually familiar with the system. People who have"},{"t":17152,"text":"been, uh, involved with, um, city zoning proposals, CALICs, that"},{"t":17160,"text":"sort of thing for years. Um, so it appears that"},{"t":17164,"text":"they're receiving some misconceptions or misinformation from somewhere, uh, that"},{"t":17168,"text":"is not the staff report. I know that staff that"},{"t":17172,"text":"you have a lot of discussions with members of the"},{"t":17174,"text":"public. For instance, I attended a number of the OCP"},{"t":17180,"text":"sort of public engagement sessions. And there were, you know,"},{"t":17184,"text":"hundreds of people in those, I'm going to ask, Staff,"},{"t":17188,"text":"are you. Sensing that people are coming to consultations and"},{"t":17194,"text":"coming to discussions with misconceptions and misinformation? And if so,"},{"t":17199,"text":"where from. PON. I do think that probably calls for"},{"t":17204,"text":"some, uh, conjecture on the part of staff. But again,"},{"t":17207,"text":"I will say that anyone is welcome to offer opinion,"},{"t":17210,"text":"but is not required given it's asking for an opinion."},{"t":17214,"text":"Mr. Johnson, did you join away in here. Sure. Uh,"},{"t":17218,"text":"Sheldon Johnson, Director of Communications and Engagement. I would say"},{"t":17221,"text":"that's a, it's rather common problem that we're all facing"},{"t":17225,"text":"right now. Uh, in the current public sphere is that"},{"t":17228,"text":"there's lots of information available to quote, uh, Y'allari, there's"},{"t":17234,"text":"never been more information in the history of the world."},{"t":17236,"text":"But what we lack is wisdom. So it's really hard"},{"t":17238,"text":"to sift through all the information that is available. That's"},{"t":17242,"text":"why we do these public engagement sessions. That's why we're"},{"t":17244,"text":"available to the public, uh, through a variety of scenarios"},{"t":17249,"text":"so that we can help them, um, sieve through everything"},{"t":17250,"text":"that is available to them, uh, come to the source"},{"t":17254,"text":"of information. Thank you. Councillor. Okay. Thanks for that. Um,"},{"t":17260,"text":"and I think I've heard on a sort of a"},{"t":17262,"text":"related point that that's kind of why we do a"},{"t":17266,"text":"broader range of public engagement than just putting out reports"},{"t":17271,"text":"and inviting people to public hearings. Is that, is that"},{"t":17274,"text":"correct? Because we actually need to have more of a"},{"t":17277,"text":"two way conversation. Mr. Johnson. Thanks. And through the mayor,"},{"t":17284,"text":"I would say that's exactly correct. Uh, that's why we"},{"t":17286,"text":"do, uh, in - person information sessions. That's why we"},{"t":17289,"text":"pop up at random farmers markets and that sort of"},{"t":17292,"text":"things when there's large things to do. Uh, but we're"},{"t":17295,"text":"also available by email, by phone. We have lots of"},{"t":17300,"text":"information on our website as well. Uh, that anytime somebody"},{"t":17303,"text":"needs clarification on anything, we're available. Absolutely. Councillor. Okay, great."},{"t":17309,"text":"Thanks. Um, going back to, um, planning staff, having, having"},{"t":17313,"text":"heard, uh, the concerns that are out there, uh, from"},{"t":17318,"text":"emails or from me or from my colleagues. Can you,"},{"t":17322,"text":"can you step back from individual comments and concerns and"},{"t":17328,"text":"look at the big picture and answer the following question."},{"t":17331,"text":"This proposal, what harm does it do to Old Town."},{"t":17337,"text":"Mr. Play and I'm going to feel a certain subjective"},{"t":17340,"text":"aspect of that as well. But again, you're welcome to"},{"t":17343,"text":"venture an opinion. Uh, through the mayor, I would not"},{"t":17347,"text":"describe this as doing harm to Old Town. Uh, I"},{"t":17350,"text":"think that we have a robust framework of policies from"},{"t":17353,"text":"the official community plan through the downtown court area plan,"},{"t":17356,"text":"uh, our design guidelines for the downtown core. And Old"},{"t":17359,"text":"Town, um, and the standards and guidelines for the conservation"},{"t":17362,"text":"of historic places in Canada, all work together, uh, to"},{"t":17365,"text":"provide a robust framework for evaluating applications and ensuring the"},{"t":17370,"text":"R a best fit in a positive contribution to old"},{"t":17373,"text":"town, uh, and downtown in general. Council. Thanks. And I"},{"t":17378,"text":"think you've, you've probably gone halfway to answering my next"},{"t":17381,"text":"question. Um, what changes should we make to this. Sorry,"},{"t":17389,"text":"let me, let me rephrase that given, given your answer."},{"t":17392,"text":"Do you see any reason to make changes to this"},{"t":17395,"text":"to better protect Old town or, or do we need"},{"t":17397,"text":"to delay it or anything like that. Mr. McLean. Again,"},{"t":17402,"text":"somewhat subjective, but you're welcome to offer an opinion. Thank"},{"t":17405,"text":"you Mayor. Um, yeah, I guess I could, I can"},{"t":17407,"text":"venture that, um, we have a pretty robust framework of"},{"t":17410,"text":"protection through our heritage conservation area established in the, uh,"},{"t":17414,"text":"official community plan, and, uh, the guidelines I mentioned that"},{"t":17419,"text":"provide a strong framework for protection and continued evolution at"},{"t":17424,"text":"the same time. Okay. Given the, uh, number of, uh,"},{"t":17429,"text":"corrections to misconceptions and misinformation that have been discussed in"},{"t":17434,"text":"this meeting, uh, would it be a lot of work"},{"t":17437,"text":"for staff to write up a blurb, you know, maybe"},{"t":17442,"text":"one pager saying, you know, no, it doesn't increase, it"},{"t":17447,"text":"doesn't remove height limits. No, it doesn't remove density limits,"},{"t":17451,"text":"et cetera, just sort of an FAQ if it doesn't"},{"t":17454,"text":"already exist somewhere about this and be able to, would"},{"t":17458,"text":"it take much work to do that and pump it"},{"t":17460,"text":"out of various channels, communications channels. It was close. Through"},{"t":17467,"text":"you, Mayor, that would not be too much work at"},{"t":17469,"text":"all. And we would be happy to do that. Okay."},{"t":17472,"text":"Mayor, I'd like to move in a men, well, I"},{"t":17474,"text":"guess once the motion's on the floor electon move an"},{"t":17476,"text":"amendment, asking staff to do just that, but, uh, I"},{"t":17479,"text":"think that's probably all my questions. And I'm happy to"},{"t":17481,"text":"move it. Council Loton is expressed in interest in moving"},{"t":17485,"text":"it, but I'm happy to take you as a seconder"},{"t":17487,"text":"if you like. And certainly there will be room for"},{"t":17488,"text":"amendments once it's on the floor. Yes. Councillor Hammond. Yep."},{"t":17493,"text":"And the Councillor Garder, yeah. Thanks. Since BC assessment taxes"},{"t":17499,"text":"on the highest and best use, why would any potential"},{"t":17503,"text":"hotel or a hotel that would be adding hotel rooms,"},{"t":17507,"text":"higher floors, higher floors or not. Not already be taxed"},{"t":17510,"text":"at that potential. Dr. Thompson, is that a you question."},{"t":17518,"text":"Or is that a McLean question? PENT. Through the mayor,"},{"t":17522,"text":"it's really a question for BC assessment. Um, they, they"},{"t":17525,"text":"do the assessments and we, we simply receive them from"},{"t":17528,"text":"them. Um, that said their approach is typically for highest"},{"t":17533,"text":"and best use of a property within the, uh, existing"},{"t":17537,"text":"zoning. So, uh, I can't really answer why a property"},{"t":17543,"text":"that doesn't have a hotel that could have, could have"},{"t":17546,"text":"a hotel is not assessed at that higher value. It"},{"t":17549,"text":"isn't. Um, but, um, that really is the BC assessment"},{"t":17553,"text":"question. Thanks, Mayor. If I could follow up, if we"},{"t":17556,"text":"can go to that slide that everyone looks at the"},{"t":17559,"text":"two sizes of it. So, and the only reason I'm"},{"t":17563,"text":"asking this is because it's relevant for when we're asking"},{"t":17567,"text":"to defer taxes that other people do not get. If"},{"t":17571,"text":"you've got on the left before hotel, but the potential"},{"t":17576,"text":"of doing the light blue, so much higher hotel. Why"},{"t":17581,"text":"is it the BC assessment doesn't look at that? There's"},{"t":17584,"text":"all kinds of, all kinds of people who tell us"},{"t":17587,"text":"that their places only worth this much, but they are"},{"t":17591,"text":"assessed on this much because B, C assessment says, look,"},{"t":17595,"text":"the potential could be that. Why, why wouldn't someone be"},{"t":17599,"text":"assessed on that already? Mr. McLean, you're asking Councillor someone"},{"t":17606,"text":"to answer the question of the intention behind BC assessment,"},{"t":17608,"text":"which is always a difficult question. Mr. McLean. And then"},{"t":17611,"text":"perhaps director Thompson. Thank you, Mayor, for the caveat. Yeah."},{"t":17615,"text":"I will try to answer within the bounds of what"},{"t":17617,"text":"I can, uh, without trying to speak too much for"},{"t":17619,"text":"VC assessment. But, um, maybe one important thing to come"},{"t":17622,"text":"back to is the viability gap that we're recognising. Um,"},{"t":17626,"text":"for a hotel development. And so if, if BC assessment"},{"t":17629,"text":"is seeing that as well through their analysis, um, then"},{"t":17633,"text":"it may not actually be the best use if it's"},{"t":17635,"text":"not viable. Um, and so that's something that we're hoping"},{"t":17640,"text":"we can change through the revitalization tax exemption to spur"},{"t":17643,"text":"that for the purpose of economic revitalization. Um, in Victoria."},{"t":17647,"text":"But, um, I recognise I'm bordering on speculation here, imagining"},{"t":17651,"text":"the, the analysis that BC assessments doing, but that may"},{"t":17654,"text":"be one factor why on a certain site, they might"},{"t":17657,"text":"not conclude that, uh, is the viable use for the"},{"t":17661,"text":"site. And that spurs one more question, Mayor. Then so"},{"t":17665,"text":"this, we give the tax exemption for the 10, let's"},{"t":17669,"text":"say 10 years on this property. Why is it that"},{"t":17673,"text":"that property next door. Isn't also going to be assessed"},{"t":17677,"text":"at the same value. And therefore, their taxes go up."},{"t":17681,"text":"I think again, you're asking questions about the intent behind"},{"t":17684,"text":"the policies at BC assessment, which is a bit of"},{"t":17686,"text":"a stretch for us. Well, Mayor, actually, because we, we"},{"t":17689,"text":"are talking about giving a break. And I'm, you know,"},{"t":17692,"text":"I'm fine with entertaining that, moving a break to a"},{"t":17694,"text":"certain industry. Um, so much of it, so all of"},{"t":17697,"text":"this is coming down to, for us, is that we"},{"t":17700,"text":"are entering to giving tax holidays for people, which is"},{"t":17704,"text":"fine. We do it for good reasons. But the reason"},{"t":17706,"text":"I'm asking this is because that's going to increase the"},{"t":17709,"text":"value of the land. And therefore, the person next door"},{"t":17712,"text":"might not be that thrilled. So I think we should"},{"t":17714,"text":"just go into this with our eyes open, even though"},{"t":17716,"text":"we are not BC assessment. You're not venturing into commentary."},{"t":17720,"text":"No, but I'm saying, wouldn't this director Thompson now for"},{"t":17723,"text":"an answer? Because I think she has something to offer."},{"t":17726,"text":"Director Thompson, I believe that you've had a conversation you'd"},{"t":17729,"text":"like to share. Through the mayor, I guess what I"},{"t":17735,"text":"will say is that for BC assessment, they, um, in"},{"t":17738,"text":"many cases, they can generalize when it comes to residential"},{"t":17741,"text":"properties. So if residential properties are selling at higher values"},{"t":17746,"text":"because for various reasons, then that might trigger those, um,"},{"t":17752,"text":"similar increases to assess values of residential properties. I do"},{"t":17755,"text":"believe or I do know that PC assessment uses different"},{"t":17759,"text":"methodologies when they assess commercial properties. And so what we"},{"t":17763,"text":"have seen with Heritage, um, uh, revitalization exemptions, for example,"},{"t":17767,"text":"is what we're modelling here because that is, uh, where,"},{"t":17771,"text":"uh, individual properties are assessed differently depending on what's happening"},{"t":17775,"text":"on those individual commercial properties. So again, it is, it"},{"t":17780,"text":"really is a question for BC assessment, um, but they"},{"t":17783,"text":"do have different methodologies when it comes to commercial versus"},{"t":17787,"text":"residential properties. Councillor Hillman. Anything else? Thank you. That's a"},{"t":17791,"text":"girdner. You had a follow - up question. Yes. Yes."},{"t":17795,"text":"Thank you. I now have two. With this diagram, this"},{"t":17799,"text":"assumes 10 years. How long do you think that hotel"},{"t":17802,"text":"is going to take to be built. Mr. McLean? Yeah."},{"t":17806,"text":"Through the mayor, thanks. Um, I think we kind of"},{"t":17810,"text":"use some rules of thumb and generalization of, uh, maybe"},{"t":17814,"text":"24 to 30 months. So just over two years as"},{"t":17817,"text":"a kind of a common construction timeline for a larger"},{"t":17819,"text":"building downtown. So why wouldn't you give it to your"},{"t":17822,"text":"exemption. Maybe if I can, uh, with respect to the"},{"t":17827,"text":"residential tax exemption, sort of best practices around that. We've"},{"t":17831,"text":"been looking at other municipalities who've done that for specifically"},{"t":17833,"text":"for hotels. And they typically start once in occupancy permit"},{"t":17837,"text":"has been completed. So the tax exemption is not during"},{"t":17840,"text":"construction or while it were reviewing applications once it's actually"},{"t":17843,"text":"open to the public and operating. So it provides a"},{"t":17846,"text":"bit of an incentive to move the hotel along the"},{"t":17849,"text":"construction. Councillor. Pardon? No, I'm sorry. I miss that. Could"},{"t":17855,"text":"you explain that again? Why wouldn't we give it to"},{"t":17857,"text":"a time of occupancy, which is what you do with"},{"t":17860,"text":"buildings rather than 10 years. I don't mean best practice"},{"t":17866,"text":"yet. So the tax exemption would commence at the time"},{"t":17871,"text":"that the occupancy permit is received. Yes. At the time"},{"t":17875,"text":"that it commences would continue starting at that point for"},{"t":17878,"text":"10 years. So there's an incentive to get it built"},{"t":17882,"text":"ASAP. The exemptions for 10 years after completion. Correct. Correct."},{"t":17890,"text":"Unoccupancy. Pardon? Unccupancy. Yes. After occupancy. Correct. Oh. Okay. Second"},{"t":17900,"text":"question. Uh, just to confirm to make sure I heard"},{"t":17903,"text":"it right since now I understand this better. Any new"},{"t":17907,"text":"builder significant change to an existing heritage in Old Town"},{"t":17910,"text":"must go to Calick and come to Council. Is that"},{"t":17912,"text":"correct? Director Hudson? Yes. Uh, through the mayor, if it's"},{"t":17919,"text":"a rezoning application. Yes. Rezoning applications would be, um, in"},{"t":17924,"text":"Old Town would be, would go to the heritage advisory"},{"t":17926,"text":"panel and circulate it to the community association for comment."},{"t":17931,"text":"And any adding a story to an existing heritage house"},{"t":17933,"text":"would require a rezoning. Not necessarily if the heritage building"},{"t":17939,"text":"that's below what the allowable density below three. If it's"},{"t":17943,"text":"below three and they're proposing a rooftop edition and they're"},{"t":17945,"text":"still within the three to one floor space ratio, they"},{"t":17948,"text":"wouldn't, it wouldn't trigger a rezoning application from a density"},{"t":17951,"text":"perspective. So it's all very case by case. Hey, thank"},{"t":17953,"text":"you. Very good. Any other questions Councillor, can you have"},{"t":17959,"text":"another question? I do. Yeah. Okay. Um, question on language"},{"t":17966,"text":"that has come up in the report and in the"},{"t":17968,"text":"presentation time and time again. When recommendations are going to"},{"t":17975,"text":"be provided, uh, if an application sits outside of the"},{"t":17981,"text":"proposed policies, um, reports are going to quote provide, um,"},{"t":17988,"text":"consideration of, sorry, where new hotel development positively contributes to"},{"t":17993,"text":"the heritage conservation area. How are you defining positive contribution."},{"t":18000,"text":"Mr. McLean. Thank you through the mayor. And I understand"},{"t":18006,"text":"our heritage planner is on the line as well and"},{"t":18008,"text":"maybe able to provide, um, uh, more detailed and qualified"},{"t":18012,"text":"answer, um, but we would look to the objectives of"},{"t":18016,"text":"the Heritage Conservation area that's established in the official community"},{"t":18019,"text":"plan and, uh, the guidelines related to that Heritage Conservation"},{"t":18022,"text":"area. And maybe I'll pause just in case our heritage"},{"t":18025,"text":"monitor planner wants to add anything, excuse me. I believe"},{"t":18028,"text":"that is Miseretsky. Hello. Please do chime in. Hello. Thank"},{"t":18032,"text":"you. Hi, thank you through the mayor. I'm Laura Stratky"},{"t":18035,"text":"heritage planner with community planning. And Mr. McClain has it"},{"t":18040,"text":"exactly right. We would use the old town design guidelines"},{"t":18043,"text":"as well as the standards and guidelines for conservation of"},{"t":18046,"text":"historic places in Canada and any other relevant policies to"},{"t":18050,"text":"determine if a proposal meets those heritage objectives. So a"},{"t":18055,"text":"positive contribution is meeting heritage objectives. Yes, that is what"},{"t":18060,"text":"they've said. Okay. Just being clear. And so, um, it"},{"t":18065,"text":"isn't necessarily economic revitalization. It's more so heritage objectives with"},{"t":18072,"text":"the added benefits of hopefully meeting economic revitalization. Mr. McLean."},{"t":18077,"text":"Through the mayor, that's correct. Uh, what we're seeking is"},{"t":18079,"text":"to achieve both in Old Town simultaneously. We all deserve"},{"t":18082,"text":"gold stars for your patients with us. Thanks. That's it."},{"t":18085,"text":"Any other questions. That's a Coleman. Thank you. And through"},{"t":18090,"text":"you to Director Thompson, I think. Much has been made"},{"t":18095,"text":"of the BC assessment authority and highest and best use."},{"t":18104,"text":"Do you have any, uh, understanding of where appeal the"},{"t":18109,"text":"appeal process to the assessment is, is it does it"},{"t":18113,"text":"tend to be on residential properties or commercial properties based"},{"t":18116,"text":"on highest and best use assessments? Mr. Thompson, do you"},{"t":18120,"text":"have that information at hand. Um, through the mayor, we"},{"t":18126,"text":"can look it up. I'm looking at, um, manager moncure."},{"t":18130,"text":"She's doing that. Right now. I do think we have"},{"t":18132,"text":"a combination of the two. Questions, Councillor Bomber. No, it's"},{"t":18138,"text":"just, I conundrum for us. And I, my gut feeling"},{"t":18142,"text":"is that we see more coming from the highest and"},{"t":18145,"text":"best use based on commercial properties. And owners say, no,"},{"t":18149,"text":"that's not what we're at. And that gets into the"},{"t":18152,"text":"vagueness issue. Let's wait for that answer and I'll go"},{"t":18156,"text":"to Councillor Gardner with a subsequent question. Yep. Thank you."},{"t":18162,"text":"I'm trying to get the street in my head. We're"},{"t":18166,"text":"going to gain, not gain. The city will get from"},{"t":18168,"text":"nice business activity about 15 million a year. Once the"},{"t":18174,"text":"taxes come down to us, I understand that with X"},{"t":18179,"text":"number of hotels being built, what is the 10 years"},{"t":18182,"text":"of foregone taxes over. Those 10 years. Ryder Thompson, would"},{"t":18189,"text":"you have any idea about that? Or Mr. McLean, go"},{"t":18192,"text":"ahead. Uh, through the mayor. Thanks. Um, so earlier we"},{"t":18194,"text":"discussed a hypothetical and so I'll call back to that"},{"t":18197,"text":"hypothetical of, um, you know, a scenario where they're that"},{"t":18201,"text":"light group blue, uh, in this case, um, of incremental"},{"t":18204,"text":"value increase is 66 million, uh, of value. And in"},{"t":18209,"text":"that scenario, uh, over 10 years, the exempted portion of"},{"t":18212,"text":"the taxes would accumulate to 8. 4 million. Per building"},{"t":18216,"text":"or. So that would be in one, when scenario, uh,"},{"t":18219,"text":"yeah, we have one building, one property under discussion. It'd"},{"t":18222,"text":"be eight million dollars of foregone taxes. Okay. But the"},{"t":18227,"text":"15 million, when we looked at taxes, was that I"},{"t":18230,"text":"thought that was overall. Or is that for how many"},{"t":18232,"text":"hotels was that for one hotel. When he said that"},{"t":18235,"text":"there was going to be, uh, 50 some million in"},{"t":18239,"text":"taxes being paid, 18 were the federal government, 17 province,"},{"t":18244,"text":"15 to City. How many tales was that for. The"},{"t":18248,"text":"mayor? Um, that was, uh, referenced by the destination greater"},{"t":18252,"text":"Victoria Hotel Development Working Group report. And they were contemplating"},{"t":18257,"text":"assuming 2000 new hotel rooms are built. So that many."},{"t":18261,"text":"And so, but each hotel we could forego, did you"},{"t":18264,"text":"say eight million per year. Or ten years? Go ahead."},{"t":18268,"text":"The latter over, over 10 years through the mere 10"},{"t":18271,"text":"years. So we're going to forego chan and eventually we're"},{"t":18276,"text":"going to get 15 per year. We're going eight over"},{"t":18281,"text":"10 years for one hotel of a couple hundred units."},{"t":18284,"text":"So we're going to have 10 of them. So we're"},{"t":18286,"text":"going to forego. 80 million. Mr. McClain, would you like"},{"t":18292,"text":"to clarify that for us, please? Through the mayor, yes."},{"t":18294,"text":"Thank you. So the, I believe the figures in terms"},{"t":18297,"text":"of tax revenue. I'm going to see if I can"},{"t":18299,"text":"get back to this. There we go. Um, those are"},{"t":18301,"text":"annual figures. And what we've been discussing is, is the"},{"t":18305,"text":"accumulation of, um, exempted taxes over a period of 10"},{"t":18309,"text":"years. Um, so let me just see if I can"},{"t":18312,"text":"clarify that. The 8. 4 that you quoted. Okay. I'd"},{"t":18316,"text":"hear you, sorry. 8. 4 that you quoted is the"},{"t":18319,"text":"total lost in tax revenue. Over 10 years. These figures"},{"t":18325,"text":"are annual figures. Is that correct? Through the mayor, that's"},{"t":18328,"text":"correct. And maybe 8. 44 for a single hotel. And"},{"t":18333,"text":"these are for all the hotels that are necessary for"},{"t":18336,"text":"27, 2000 brooms. Through the mayor, that's correct. Yeah. There"},{"t":18341,"text":"you go. So Ms. Close, do you want to clarify"},{"t":18343,"text":"more? I think I just like to further reiterate this"},{"t":18347,"text":"is, um, that 8. 4 million dollar was a sort"},{"t":18350,"text":"of a typical example. They won't all be that number"},{"t":18353,"text":"exactly, first of all, um, and second of all, that's"},{"t":18356,"text":"assuming that the hotel gets, could get built without the"},{"t":18359,"text":"tax exemption in the first place, which of course we've"},{"t":18362,"text":"framed the tax exemption program to help hotels get built."},{"t":18367,"text":"Um, so it's not really foregone revenue in that sense."},{"t":18369,"text":"Gotcha. Council Garden or anything else? Yeah. I still don't"},{"t":18375,"text":"have the answer to reality my question because we're talking"},{"t":18378,"text":"in here about 10 hotels and we're talking the city's"},{"t":18383,"text":"revenue. And so for 10 hotels. At, I'm just going"},{"t":18389,"text":"to interrupt your Council Gardner because I think Mr. McClain"},{"t":18392,"text":"has an ability to clarify for this. Can you clarify"},{"t":18394,"text":"this for us, Mr. McClain? Through the mayor, thank you."},{"t":18396,"text":"I think I'm recognising where there's going, where, where you're"},{"t":18399,"text":"going. And I think there's one, uh, other piece of"},{"t":18401,"text":"information that might be helpful. Uh, in this hypothetical, maybe"},{"t":18404,"text":"it's helpful to, to describe the hotel as containing 150"},{"t":18407,"text":"rooms. Um, and so we have the hotel, uh, working"},{"t":18411,"text":"group, um, noting 2000 new rooms. We have the OCP"},{"t":18416,"text":"referencing 1500 new hotel rooms. So for the sake of"},{"t":18419,"text":"some quick, easy math, maybe we frame this in three"},{"t":18422,"text":"quarters of that value as occurring within the City of"},{"t":18425,"text":"Victoria related to the 1500 hotel rooms. Um, which would,"},{"t":18430,"text":"so if, if each hotel has 150 rooms, that would"},{"t":18433,"text":"be 10 hotels to achieve the 1500 rooms that are"},{"t":18437,"text":"objectives within, um, the official community plan. Uh, so, so"},{"t":18442,"text":"bringing that back around, um, say we have 10 hotels"},{"t":18446,"text":"and they all are exactly like this hypothetical scenario. We"},{"t":18449,"text":"can just move the decimal place. Um, one and the"},{"t":18453,"text":"8. 4 over 10 years becomes 84 over 10 years"},{"t":18457,"text":"across all 10 hotels. Um, and we could compare the"},{"t":18461,"text":"15. 8, I believe it was. And we can also"},{"t":18464,"text":"move the decimal one point to, to get to 10"},{"t":18466,"text":"years. And we can compare 158 million, uh, to 84"},{"t":18471,"text":"million. Well done, Mr. McCarthy. Thank you. That's exactly what"},{"t":18475,"text":"I was getting at was 80 million, but we get"},{"t":18478,"text":"150 million, but we get that 150 million even if"},{"t":18481,"text":"they're paying the taxes. Through the mayor, maybe, sorry, can"},{"t":18488,"text":"you clarify the question? Okay. Um, it's. Foregone taxes is"},{"t":18492,"text":"80 million, correct? Through the mayor correct. I would just"},{"t":18496,"text":"reiterate that in this hypothetical, uh, they aren't necessarily foregone"},{"t":18500,"text":"taxes because we wouldn't expect those taxes to happen without"},{"t":18503,"text":"the RTE program. Right. Well, I would expect them that"},{"t":18507,"text":"they're going to be able to hotel or not. So,"},{"t":18510,"text":"I mean, it's 84 million in foregone taxes. And the"},{"t":18517,"text":"idea is for some reason that when they're building the"},{"t":18521,"text":"hope, not building the hotel occupying it. We're supposed to"},{"t":18523,"text":"get 15 million dollars. In benefit for all of them"},{"t":18527,"text":"per year, which is 150 million. But what we're really"},{"t":18530,"text":"saying is we have to pay, we have to forego"},{"t":18533,"text":"80 million to get 150. Because you're saying the hotels"},{"t":18537,"text":"wouldn't be built all without this exemption. In a way,"},{"t":18542,"text":"that's correct. Through the mayor, yes. Yeah. Maybe a simple"},{"t":18545,"text":"way to put it is we can imagine, um, the"},{"t":18548,"text":"tax revenue that, uh, destination greater Victor Victoria is estimated"},{"t":18551,"text":"here as being what we would realise once the exemption"},{"t":18554,"text":"is over. And once full taxation resumes of the hotels,"},{"t":18559,"text":"um, that would be kind of the level of taxation"},{"t":18561,"text":"and contribution we'd be expecting from this influx of new"},{"t":18564,"text":"hotels. If Costco came in and wanted to build a"},{"t":18568,"text":"big building, would we give them a tax break for"},{"t":18571,"text":"five or 10 years because they're going to bring in"},{"t":18573,"text":"an awful lot of income. No question about that. That"},{"t":18576,"text":"is not relevant to the application that's before us. And"},{"t":18579,"text":"I've got a war that you've used now. Thank you."},{"t":18581,"text":"Almost 11 minutes of your time. So, uh, but there"},{"t":18586,"text":"is much more to come. Councillor Thompson. Do you have"},{"t":18589,"text":"a question? I also have you on my list as"},{"t":18591,"text":"wanting to second domain motion. Thanks, Mayor. Both of those."},{"t":18599,"text":"Thanks. Yeah. Just wanted to, um, clarify because I'm now"},{"t":18603,"text":"worried that after the last few minutes, there's going to"},{"t":18605,"text":"be some misconceptions out there among the public. I just"},{"t":18608,"text":"wanted to clarify with staff. If you could confirm, we"},{"t":18612,"text":"are not losing or giving up any revenue that we're"},{"t":18618,"text":"currently collecting. What we're talking about is. Not collecting additional"},{"t":18623,"text":"revenues. Is that correct? Mr. McLean? Uh, through the mayor,"},{"t":18628,"text":"that, that is correct. This is a program intended to"},{"t":18631,"text":"spur economic activity that, uh, we're estimating wouldn't happen otherwise."},{"t":18636,"text":"Thank you. That's all. Thank you. Any other questions. Not"},{"t":18642,"text":"seeing any other questions. Councillor Lotten, I believe you wanted"},{"t":18644,"text":"to move the staff recommendation. Yes, Mayor. Patrick Thompson, do"},{"t":18648,"text":"you still wish to second it? Yes, please. Very good."},{"t":18653,"text":"All right. Move to second. Did Councillor Lowton over to"},{"t":18656,"text":"you? I'm going to start with a few comments and"},{"t":18657,"text":"then I do have an amendment. So, um, I just,"},{"t":18663,"text":"this has been, I think a little bit difficult to"},{"t":18666,"text":"understand for the public and, uh, and council, I would"},{"t":18669,"text":"suggest too. So I just want to zoom out here"},{"t":18671,"text":"for a minute to just remind the public what's happening"},{"t":18675,"text":"here. So this is from the staff report. There's a,"},{"t":18679,"text":"there's a broader economic land planning process happening that's estimated"},{"t":18684,"text":"to take about two years to complete. This process is"},{"t":18687,"text":"going to come to Council for consideration to advance priority"},{"t":18690,"text":"OCP actions. But in the meantime, there are more immediate"},{"t":18695,"text":"land use and development solutions that can be implemented to"},{"t":18699,"text":"complement some initiatives described in the report, which I'm going"},{"t":18704,"text":"to go to in a second. Well, still ensuring a"},{"t":18708,"text":"full term planning process informs the long - term solution."},{"t":18712,"text":"So there is a big two - year economic land"},{"t":18716,"text":"planning process happening. And within the report, there was certain"},{"t":18720,"text":"initiatives. That are already happening. So one of them is"},{"t":18725,"text":"the community safety and well - being plan. And within"},{"t":18728,"text":"that, there are also things about citywide economic development, commercial"},{"t":18733,"text":"viability in downtown vitality. There's the Ardown Town program. There's"},{"t":18738,"text":"the Victoria storefront activation program. There's the feed on the"},{"t":18741,"text":"street program. There's a good night out program. The festival"},{"t":18745,"text":"projects grant. The industrial zoning modernization and also business license"},{"t":18752,"text":"processing improvements. What this in front of us is doing"},{"t":18756,"text":"today is adding four things to that list if I"},{"t":18761,"text":"have this correct. And those four things are, it increased"},{"t":18765,"text":"density to the CBD zones for non - residential, which"},{"t":18770,"text":"has already been policy since 2011, adding three new uses,"},{"t":18776,"text":"um, to the CBD zones and to the old town"},{"t":18779,"text":"district. The RTE for new hotel development and permitting special"},{"t":18787,"text":"events on private property. So it's like we're adding those"},{"t":18790,"text":"four things to these other initiatives that are already happening"},{"t":18793,"text":"while the bigger planning process is underway. And I think"},{"t":18797,"text":"what happened, um, and why we were getting a lot"},{"t":18800,"text":"of, uh, pushback from the public is that, that old"},{"t":18804,"text":"town was included in this, but it didn't, it wasn't"},{"t":18807,"text":"in the title of the, of the actual report and"},{"t":18812,"text":"people got, they're protective of old town. So it, it"},{"t":18816,"text":"created a lot of confusion. So what I'm going to"},{"t":18819,"text":"do, Mayor, is try an amendment. I've sent it over"},{"t":18823,"text":"to ledge services. And what it is, is to strike"},{"t":18827,"text":"out number four and replace it with the language provided."},{"t":18836,"text":"Let's just wait a minute. Look at that's up there."},{"t":18848,"text":"So you want to delete everything after that? Yeah. It's"},{"t":18850,"text":"just a complete replacement of number four. And we'll just"},{"t":18854,"text":"give people time. All right. So we'll just go folks"},{"t":18858,"text":"get a chance to read that before I look for"},{"t":18859,"text":"a seconder."},{"t":18876,"text":"Mr. McLean, since you seem to be leading this discussion."},{"t":18882,"text":"Does this give you the detail that you had previously."},{"t":18887,"text":"One would assume require in the language that you had"},{"t":18889,"text":"previously in this truck out sections. Is there anything missing"},{"t":18893,"text":"here that would be problematic. Thank you Mayor. Um, no,"},{"t":18897,"text":"this is quite clear. And does it change what has"},{"t":18901,"text":"been struck out. I'm trying to make sure that you"},{"t":18903,"text":"get the direction you need and that this doesn't materially"},{"t":18907,"text":"change what you had intended to place before council. Thank"},{"t":18911,"text":"you. Yeah. What I understand this would, would accomplish is,"},{"t":18915,"text":"uh, that as part of the, um, longer planning process,"},{"t":18919,"text":"uh, we anticipate bringing recommended approach to Council for later"},{"t":18922,"text":"this year. Um, we would roll this work into that"},{"t":18924,"text":"process rather than, than proceeding in advance of that process"},{"t":18929,"text":"to publish revisions to the downtown core area plan. So"},{"t":18934,"text":"if I understood you correctly, it would have material impact"},{"t":18937,"text":"because it would hold one piece into the larger later"},{"t":18940,"text":"process, which is a PCU had intended for us to"},{"t":18943,"text":"consider today. Correct. Thank you. I say thank you. Is"},{"t":18947,"text":"there a secretary for that amendment. Councillor Codon is second"},{"t":18952,"text":"in. Go ahead, Councillor Loughton on the amendment. Uh, thank"},{"t":18956,"text":"you Mayor. And through you. So I'm just bringing this"},{"t":18959,"text":"because members of the, of the public were, I would"},{"t":18963,"text":"say shocked by some of the potential changes to the"},{"t":18966,"text":"old town district. Although that has been clarified in this"},{"t":18969,"text":"meeting today, I still think, um, because of this sort"},{"t":18975,"text":"of emotional surge around this very special part of our"},{"t":18979,"text":"city, like clear about that, um, I just want to"},{"t":18985,"text":"give the public some certainty that will slow down on"},{"t":18990,"text":"this and give it a little bit more breathing room,"},{"t":18993,"text":"which gives some time for these ideas to come back."},{"t":18996,"text":"Um, with the deeper work on the downtown core area"},{"t":19000,"text":"plan and the heritage review or also as has been"},{"t":19003,"text":"mentioned, the bigger plan that's coming to council, um, before"},{"t":19007,"text":"the end of this year. So essentially all this does"},{"t":19010,"text":"is removes old town from the equations and allows all"},{"t":19016,"text":"of the other economic development work presented in this report"},{"t":19020,"text":"to move on to the next step. I do want"},{"t":19024,"text":"to note that though, that I do support the rehabilitation"},{"t":19030,"text":"seismic upgrading and adaptive reuse of existing heritage buildings for"},{"t":19035,"text":"hotels. Um, but based on the initial feedback from the"},{"t":19040,"text":"public, I think it's prudent to slow down this part"},{"t":19043,"text":"of the proposal quality change in old town until the"},{"t":19047,"text":"Folsom work is completed. And it allows also allows some"},{"t":19050,"text":"time for public comment. It just allows people to get"},{"t":19053,"text":"used to this. That doesn't mean that applications can't come"},{"t":19057,"text":"forward. For hotels and old town. It's just going to"},{"t":19061,"text":"have to go through the process that it always does,"},{"t":19063,"text":"which would be applying for rezoning. So it's, it's just"},{"t":19067,"text":"meant to bring some peace around this. And then let"},{"t":19072,"text":"the rest of the work go forward. Thanks, Mayor. Thank"},{"t":19074,"text":"you. Councillor Caradona is the secondary of the amendment on"},{"t":19077,"text":"the amendment. Any dad? Oh, okay. Anybody else on the"},{"t":19081,"text":"amendment. Councillor Thompson. On the amendment. On the amendment, thanks"},{"t":19091,"text":"Mayor. Um, yeah, just a question for Staff. If this"},{"t":19095,"text":"amendment proceeds and this gets rolled into the work in"},{"t":19098,"text":"the fall, uh, and then it comes back to us,"},{"t":19102,"text":"um. Would you anticipate that there will be any changes"},{"t":19105,"text":"to the content of what is being suggested today. Mr."},{"t":19110,"text":"McLean. Through the mayor. Thank you for the question. Um,"},{"t":19118,"text":"it's, it very well could, uh, further evolve as we"},{"t":19122,"text":"work through the two year process of community engagement and"},{"t":19126,"text":"for the policy development. Um, it's hard to speculate on"},{"t":19129,"text":"exactly what might change. Councillor Thompson. Okay. And okay. Thanks."},{"t":19135,"text":"And any idea of the timing for that, um, next"},{"t":19139,"text":"stage. Uh, through the mayor of the immediate next stage"},{"t":19141,"text":"would be to present a proposed approach to the overall"},{"t":19145,"text":"process, uh, to Council later this year. And at that"},{"t":19148,"text":"time we would anticipate, uh, presenting an anticipated timeline for"},{"t":19152,"text":"the broader process. Right. Okay. And, uh, I guess that's"},{"t":19157,"text":"after our August break, but, um, anything more precise than"},{"t":19161,"text":"this year. Mr. McLean. Uh, through the mayor, no, we"},{"t":19168,"text":"don't have any precise dates, but it's likely we would"},{"t":19170,"text":"be bringing this to the next council. Yes. I really"},{"t":19173,"text":"likely, yes. Councillor Thompson. Okay. No further questions. Thanks. Mr."},{"t":19179,"text":"McLean, can you explain in simple terms the impact of"},{"t":19182,"text":"this amendment on what you had proposed. Uh, this would"},{"t":19190,"text":"delay providing further policy guidance to guide consideration of rezoning"},{"t":19195,"text":"applications. And so if, if someone is proposing a hotel"},{"t":19199,"text":"or otherwise, um, in Old Town, the existing policy framework"},{"t":19203,"text":"and guidelines would, uh, guide the application review. Maybe the"},{"t":19207,"text":"difference would be the level of emphasis that is placed"},{"t":19210,"text":"on encouraging hotel development, uh, within old town. So I'm"},{"t":19217,"text":"a little perplexed because earlier you had suggested that the"},{"t":19222,"text":"existing policies around Old Town were sufficient to protect it."},{"t":19226,"text":"And yet this would suggest that that isn't as clear"},{"t":19230,"text":"or perhaps a certain thank you for the clarification. And"},{"t":19236,"text":"apologies if I misspoke. I would say that what doesn't"},{"t":19239,"text":"change is the Heritage Conservation area, all of the framework"},{"t":19243,"text":"of guidelines. Um, what does change, you know, if Council"},{"t":19247,"text":"were to proceed, um, with the recommended motion and see"},{"t":19250,"text":"some updates to the policies within the downtown Corps A"},{"t":19254,"text":"plan, um, we would have a little bit more policy"},{"t":19257,"text":"guidance, emphasis on encouraging hotel development, um, and explicit direction"},{"t":19261,"text":"that, that, uh, the city's able to consider densities above"},{"t":19265,"text":"3. 0 FSR as a framework for considering hotel development"},{"t":19270,"text":"and otherwise. Director Hudson, did you want to add something?"},{"t":19277,"text":"Um, through the mayor, all we were trying to do"},{"t":19279,"text":"with these policy, um, editions was just to provide a"},{"t":19282,"text":"little bit more encouragement and clarity for hotel proposals in"},{"t":19286,"text":"Old Town. We can still consider any hotel proposals that"},{"t":19288,"text":"come forward and we would still look at our existing"},{"t":19291,"text":"policies, our OCP, the downtown core area plan, our design"},{"t":19295,"text":"guidelines. So this was just trying to provide more specificity."},{"t":19300,"text":"But, you know, we still in our OCP, we have"},{"t":19303,"text":"policies to encourage hotels. And we'll see what comes along."},{"t":19307,"text":"And we can still consider things on a case -"},{"t":19309,"text":"by - case basis. So, um, that was all we"},{"t":19311,"text":"were trying to do here. It was just for clarity."},{"t":19314,"text":"Yeah. Okay. Any other comments or questions on the amendment?"},{"t":19318,"text":"Yes. Hammond and then Gardner. Thanks, Mayor. And I actually"},{"t":19323,"text":"appreciate the tone of the amender on this one. And"},{"t":19330,"text":"I think it's completely legitimate. I did not find any"},{"t":19332,"text":"misinformation. I found people had a very negative reaction to"},{"t":19338,"text":"this because they were concerned about what was going on"},{"t":19340,"text":"in Old Town. And this is a part of what"},{"t":19345,"text":"makes Victoria different. And the other cities that are in"},{"t":19348,"text":"the same boat, but is one of the, one of"},{"t":19350,"text":"the areas, one of the things that makes us different."},{"t":19354,"text":"And if that takes a little more time and explanation,"},{"t":19356,"text":"and I don't mind saying that I was very worried"},{"t":19360,"text":"from what I was reading and then what people sent."},{"t":19363,"text":"And then an email from our acting director from yesterday,"},{"t":19367,"text":"I think it was really put my mind at ease"},{"t":19371,"text":"and it allowed me to ask those questions, which you"},{"t":19373,"text":"then answered, uh, right away. So I don't, I don't"},{"t":19378,"text":"see any conspiracy. And I don't like the idea of,"},{"t":19382,"text":"you know, making people think they're stupid because they were"},{"t":19384,"text":"asking questions about this. So if this gives us a"},{"t":19387,"text":"little more pause and a little more opportunity, I'm in"},{"t":19389,"text":"favor of it. Thank you Councillor Gardner. Thank you. Like"},{"t":19394,"text":"you mayor, I was perplexed too, thinking that it was"},{"t":19398,"text":"covered, uh, with the previous discussion. So the response is"},{"t":19402,"text":"actually from staff have reinforced me that this is a"},{"t":19405,"text":"very good amendment. And I very much appreciate it because"},{"t":19409,"text":"I think it is very much needed. This was thrown"},{"t":19413,"text":"on us with two short of a notice and to"},{"t":19415,"text":"the public. Very little notice too. So I think I"},{"t":19420,"text":"very much appreciate this amendment. Thank you. Anyone else on"},{"t":19424,"text":"the amendment. How's your Kim? And yep, Councillor Kim. And"},{"t":19431,"text":"Council Coleman. Um, thanks. My comment on the amendment is"},{"t":19435,"text":"more so that, um, I think this is, uh, I"},{"t":19440,"text":"see it as a response from council, not just to"},{"t":19444,"text":"public feedback, but also to, um, frankly, the attitude that"},{"t":19449,"text":"we seem to have instilled in staff ourselves, which is,"},{"t":19452,"text":"let's go. Let's, let's, let's make it happen. And do"},{"t":19455,"text":"you have done that? Thank you. Um, and it is"},{"t":19459,"text":"our job to then be the tuning fork and listen"},{"t":19462,"text":"to the public. And so, um, I appreciate my colleague"},{"t":19467,"text":"for making this move and first to staff for their"},{"t":19470,"text":"flexibility. Um, and I really want to emphasize that like,"},{"t":19475,"text":"this is at no point in my opinion anything to"},{"t":19477,"text":"do with, um, how staff have presented or anything. It's,"},{"t":19482,"text":"it's not, it's not a surprise because this is what"},{"t":19484,"text":"we asked for. It's, it just wasn't enough time to"},{"t":19488,"text":"digest what staff art. Of course, naturally going to be"},{"t":19492,"text":"very familiar with, but which counsel as representatives of the"},{"t":19497,"text":"general layperson still need to digest. So, um, I just"},{"t":19501,"text":"want to put into context, uh, sort of where I"},{"t":19504,"text":"think this conversation has landed. But I can support that,"},{"t":19508,"text":"um, this amendment. Thanks. Thank you very much. Councillor Coleman."},{"t":19512,"text":"Thank you. On the amendment. Yes. On the amendment. Um,"},{"t":19514,"text":"I support this amendment because I think it is a"},{"t":19518,"text":"constraint, but I will point out to folks that, um,"},{"t":19522,"text":"not that much different than the process we had before"},{"t":19526,"text":"just to the next two blocks. In this term of"},{"t":19529,"text":"council, we've had two applications, one of which the majority"},{"t":19532,"text":"of council turned down. And one of which the majority"},{"t":19535,"text":"of Council supported, um, that were slightly outside what was"},{"t":19539,"text":"expected. So it's, it's not that much of a change."},{"t":19543,"text":"I do think that we've, um, perhaps it's not dissimilar"},{"t":19546,"text":"to our marine industrial where we created great. Angst in"},{"t":19553,"text":"one of our neighbourhoods and said, no, I think you're"},{"t":19556,"text":"misreading it, but we took James Bay off that. And"},{"t":19559,"text":"I think we're doing the same thing here. I think"},{"t":19560,"text":"that, uh, the concern for most of the public that"},{"t":19564,"text":"we've heard is they love old town. They are concerned"},{"t":19570,"text":"that impacts beyond their control may change the face of"},{"t":19575,"text":"old town forever. Um, I think that this is a"},{"t":19578,"text":"more cautious approach. And I appreciate it coming forward. I"},{"t":19582,"text":"think there will be some other amendments as well. Thank"},{"t":19585,"text":"you very much. Anyone else on this amendment. Let's take"},{"t":19590,"text":"another comments. All those in favor of this amendment. Councillor"},{"t":19594,"text":"Dell. Councillor Kim Councillor Cardinal Council Loughton myself Councillor Coleman,"},{"t":19600,"text":"Councillor Hammond, Councillor Gardner. And Councillor Thompson. So that is"},{"t":19603,"text":"unanimous. Uh, so that amendment is adopted and Councillor Loatny,"},{"t":19607,"text":"you still have the floor. That's it for me, Mayor."},{"t":19610,"text":"Thank you. Councillor Thompson, you second did this now amended"},{"t":19613,"text":"motion over to you. Councillor Johnson. You're muted."},{"t":19627,"text":"Thanks Mayor. Um, yeah, I wanted to thank staff once"},{"t":19631,"text":"again for having, uh, brought this forward and having done"},{"t":19634,"text":"this work. I think it's excellent at work. Um, I"},{"t":19638,"text":"don't think that it was confusing actually, uh, in the"},{"t":19643,"text":"staff report. I think what was confusing is that people"},{"t":19646,"text":"were receiving a ton of information from a variety of"},{"t":19650,"text":"sources other than the staff report. Uh, and it's pretty"},{"t":19654,"text":"clear from the emails I received and the online discussion"},{"t":19657,"text":"that I saw, uh, that people were, uh, misled by"},{"t":19661,"text":"that information. And that does not mean that they're stupid"},{"t":19664,"text":"contrary to, uh, what was suggested earlier. I think that,"},{"t":19668,"text":"uh, we are all very aware that there is a"},{"t":19673,"text":"ton of misinformation on social media right now. There's, if"},{"t":19677,"text":"anybody's not aware of that, then I suggest you just"},{"t":19680,"text":"Google it. Uh, and you'll find a lot of media"},{"t":19682,"text":"stories about it. Again, it's not a reflection of the,"},{"t":19686,"text":"um, uh, intelligence of the people receiving it. It's just"},{"t":19690,"text":"a reflection of the, uh, ubiquity of the stuff that's"},{"t":19695,"text":"going around. Um, that being said, I think that, um,"},{"t":19701,"text":"it is incumbent now that, that so much has been"},{"t":19706,"text":"misunderstood about this that we clarify the actual facts. And"},{"t":19712,"text":"what I heard from staff earlier was that that would"},{"t":19714,"text":"be pretty easy to do. So I've sent a, uh,"},{"t":19717,"text":"an amendment motion to legislative staff. And hopefully they can"},{"t":19721,"text":"pull it up. I'm not, I'm not sure. Probably just"},{"t":19723,"text":"a bullet point number seven. Let's just give Staff a"},{"t":19726,"text":"moment to pull it up and then we can decide"},{"t":19728,"text":"whether that's the appropriate place for it. We'll just take"},{"t":19733,"text":"a second to read it, Darre. Need some word smithing."},{"t":19748,"text":"Mr. Johnson, in just having a look at number seven"},{"t":19751,"text":"as a potential amendment, uh, is it necessary for there"},{"t":19755,"text":"to be a recitation of examples of different media or"},{"t":19760,"text":"is it sufficient for it to simply say via multiple"},{"t":19763,"text":"usual channels. Thanks for the question through the mayor. Yeah,"},{"t":19769,"text":"it could be, it could be general and we can"},{"t":19771,"text":"just use a sort of a regular channel. So that's"},{"t":19773,"text":"for sure. Councillor Thompson, I don't know if you heard"},{"t":19776,"text":"that, but the reason that I asked is because often"},{"t":19778,"text":"when we begin to cite examples, we missed something. And"},{"t":19782,"text":"so rather than limiting this to the one, two, three,"},{"t":19786,"text":"four, five items that you've identified. If we simply said,"},{"t":19790,"text":"um, via the city's usual multiple channels of communication and"},{"t":19795,"text":"then left it to our staff. They would access all"},{"t":19798,"text":"of those. Would that be sufficient for you? Yes. That"},{"t":19801,"text":"sounds great. And I think we can also ditch. Okay."},{"t":19804,"text":"So why are the cities usual. Media channels, Mr. Johnson"},{"t":19810,"text":"media channels? Yes, I'm getting nods from that media channels."},{"t":19813,"text":"And then you could delete everything after the EG all"},{"t":19817,"text":"the way down to the fact. There you go. Try"},{"t":19821,"text":"that. Councillor Thompson can you see that. Yep. And it"},{"t":19826,"text":"looks good. Yes. And I think you could also staff"},{"t":19829,"text":"remove the first via. Uh, right after communicate. Uh, yes,"},{"t":19836,"text":"that's true. Very good. Thank you for that. So if"},{"t":19838,"text":"that's, uh, sufficient for you, I'll ask for a seconder."},{"t":19842,"text":"Council occurred on a second in. Go ahead, Councillor Thompson"},{"t":19844,"text":"on your amendment. I think I motivated earlier, uh, for"},{"t":19848,"text":"it, Mayor, when I was asking questions of staff. Thanks."},{"t":19852,"text":"Thank you Councillor Caradona. The amendment, anything? Nope. Nothing on"},{"t":19855,"text":"the amendment. Councillor Hammond on the amendment. I like making"},{"t":19860,"text":"amendment. Yep. Go ahead. Um. I would just like to"},{"t":19868,"text":"end it at zone and remove the rest of it."},{"t":19872,"text":"Okay. So the amendment to the amendment is to delete"},{"t":19875,"text":"everything after district zone. And that leads at very general"},{"t":19879,"text":"statement. Is there a second year for that? So Councillor"},{"t":19881,"text":"Councillor Gardenry Second Age Councillor Hammond on your amendment to"},{"t":19884,"text":"the amendment? Well, lucky for me, I don't spend a"},{"t":19887,"text":"lot of time on social media and I don't worry"},{"t":19889,"text":"about misinformation or misconceptions. I think that's getting very subjective."},{"t":19893,"text":"The fact is that there were a lot of people"},{"t":19895,"text":"who, um, quite, um, quite, um, I don't want to"},{"t":19899,"text":"say innocently, but quite legitimately, we're concerned about something like"},{"t":19902,"text":"this. We have already, um, address that thanks to the"},{"t":19908,"text":"already, the mover of the amendment, uh, that was, was"},{"t":19911,"text":"put in place so that we could make people feel"},{"t":19913,"text":"better about this. I don't want to get subjective and"},{"t":19916,"text":"I don't want people feeling bad that suddenly they're giving"},{"t":19919,"text":"misinformation when, in fact, they were just very concerned about,"},{"t":19922,"text":"um, what was going on. So let's, let's do the"},{"t":19926,"text":"same thing that I that really woke me up, which"},{"t":19929,"text":"was from our acting directors email. And then other questions"},{"t":19932,"text":"that I asked here today. So let's just give the"},{"t":19934,"text":"information without putting a lot of, um, subjectivity to it"},{"t":19939,"text":"and a lot of, um, a lot of other sort"},{"t":19941,"text":"of words in there. Thank you, Councillor Gardner on the"},{"t":19943,"text":"amendment to the amendment. Thank you. Um, I too believe"},{"t":19947,"text":"this should be struck. I'm not a follower of social"},{"t":19950,"text":"media. And frankly, I and a lot of other people,"},{"t":19956,"text":"they only learned people misunderstood what was there because of"},{"t":19962,"text":"the information gap in that paper. And that was really"},{"t":19965,"text":"the problem. People were interpreting the words that were there."},{"t":19970,"text":"And there were a lot of words that weren't there"},{"t":19972,"text":"that would have perhaps, you know, flex things along. For"},{"t":19975,"text":"example, the cimatic we mentioned. So it's that paper have"},{"t":19979,"text":"been a bit more forthcoming, uh, or broader. I don't"},{"t":19983,"text":"think we would have had the controversy we've had. And"},{"t":19986,"text":"I quite appreciate the previous amendment. And I will have"},{"t":19989,"text":"a moment myself, mayor. Thank you very much. Anyone else"},{"t":19993,"text":"on the amendment to the amendment, Councillor Thompson. I see"},{"t":19995,"text":"your hand up. Thanks, Mary. Yeah. Um, both of my"},{"t":20002,"text":"colleagues are active on social media. I will just point"},{"t":20004,"text":"that out. Um, as far as the actual words proposed"},{"t":20009,"text":"to be struck here, um, they refer back to no"},{"t":20014,"text":"height or density changes to more general eyes. The other,"},{"t":20019,"text":"um, uh, if, you know, if we can't use words"},{"t":20024,"text":"like misconception or misinformation, let's, let's call it something else."},{"t":20029,"text":"Uh, the other things that are not correct, uh, that"},{"t":20034,"text":"we have received. There's a, there's a few things that"},{"t":20038,"text":"staff spoke about today. It wasn't just height or density."},{"t":20042,"text":"And I think that staff should have the opportunity, uh,"},{"t":20044,"text":"to present, uh, more broadly. Thank you. Will there is"},{"t":20049,"text":"not room for an amendment to an amendment to an"},{"t":20051,"text":"amendment. So we'll have to deal with this one first."},{"t":20053,"text":"And then we can see where we go. Council Cardona."},{"t":20055,"text":"I saw your handy. We should speak to the amendment."},{"t":20057,"text":"Yeah. I'll just say that, um, I'm, I'm actually okay"},{"t":20059,"text":"with this amendment to the amendment. But if it passes,"},{"t":20062,"text":"I would then make one small additional amendment to sort"},{"t":20066,"text":"of broaden what staff are able to speak to. Because"},{"t":20069,"text":"right now it's solely to the question of heightened density."},{"t":20073,"text":"So I think that there's an opportunity to get at"},{"t":20075,"text":"the intent here without using this particular language. Thank you"},{"t":20078,"text":"for that. Anyone else on the amendment to the amendment."},{"t":20082,"text":"That's just dealing with the underlying and struck through language"},{"t":20085,"text":"Councillor Coleman. Thank you. I support the amendment to the"},{"t":20088,"text":"amendment. I will point out that this could be achieved"},{"t":20091,"text":"if we just got rid of number two and didn't"},{"t":20094,"text":"wave the requirement for a public hearing. Indeed. That is"},{"t":20097,"text":"correct. And so anyone else on the amendment to the"},{"t":20102,"text":"amendment. Seeing none, all those in favor of the amendment"},{"t":20106,"text":"to the amendment. Councillor Dell, Councillor Kim. Councillor Coronic Councillor"},{"t":20110,"text":"Loughton myself, Councillor Coleman Councillor Herman County Councillor Gardner in"},{"t":20115,"text":"opposition. Councillor Thompson. Noting one in opposition, that amendment to"},{"t":20122,"text":"the amendment is CARE. So that language is being removed."},{"t":20126,"text":"That takes us back to the amendment. And Councillor Caridona,"},{"t":20132,"text":"you had the floor on the amendment. Do I? Yes,"},{"t":20135,"text":"you do. I'll just make one very minor amendment, which"},{"t":20137,"text":"is to add the word including before the fact. Including,"},{"t":20143,"text":"I see. Thus, second, seconded by Council Gardner. Councillor Courage,"},{"t":20148,"text":"don't you think you'd like to say about it? No."},{"t":20150,"text":"Councillor Gardner, anything you like to say about it? No."},{"t":20152,"text":"Anybody else like to say anything about it. Not seeing"},{"t":20157,"text":"any other commentary. All those in favor of adding the"},{"t":20160,"text":"word including. And I'm going to pose. That is unanimous."},{"t":20165,"text":"Thank you very much for that. Councillor Coderno, you still"},{"t":20167,"text":"have the floor. I was going to make an amendment,"},{"t":20170,"text":"but it's somewhat captured by what was just approved. So"},{"t":20172,"text":"I will see the floor I've got no further comments."},{"t":20175,"text":"All right. Very good. Um, anyone else on the main"},{"t":20179,"text":"motion. Council Gardner. Thank you. As mentioned, I had an"},{"t":20183,"text":"amendment. Amen is to strike out recommendation too. Very good."},{"t":20187,"text":"Is there a second here for that? That's for Hammond."},{"t":20190,"text":"Go ahead, Councillor Gardner. I will just suggest to you,"},{"t":20192,"text":"you have two minutes and 41 seconds left. Point of"},{"t":20194,"text":"privilege. Did we not vote on seven. Makeup burden? Did"},{"t":20198,"text":"we not vote on seven. Yes, I believe we did."},{"t":20201,"text":"Did we not? We voted on the amendment to the"},{"t":20203,"text":"amendment. So you may not the actual amendment. My apologies."},{"t":20207,"text":"Thanks for catching that Councillor Kim. It's a long day."},{"t":20209,"text":"Uh, on number seven then. Any final commentary? Go ahead,"},{"t":20214,"text":"Council. Yeah. Um, it's because I had a question. What,"},{"t":20216,"text":"what is a usual media channel. And is there a"},{"t":20220,"text":"cost associated? Mr. Johnson, what would you describe as our"},{"t":20223,"text":"usual media channels. And it costs there to them. Uh,"},{"t":20228,"text":"through the mayor, uh, cost would be, um, minimal to"},{"t":20232,"text":"nothing, uh, as you're aware, we have many social media"},{"t":20236,"text":"channels, uh, like blue sky, Facebook, Instagram, that sort of"},{"t":20243,"text":"thing. As well as, uh, we would make use of"},{"t":20245,"text":"our website and our media relationships that we have as"},{"t":20248,"text":"well. And make sure that we point people to, uh,"},{"t":20251,"text":"you know, the source of truth. Is there precedent of"},{"t":20255,"text":"the city doing a similar mode of communication. About something"},{"t":20260,"text":"that has come up at Council and we're just trying"},{"t":20263,"text":"to like fill in that information gap. Mr. Judson, do"},{"t":20268,"text":"something we would do regularly. Through the mayor, it's not"},{"t":20271,"text":"typical for us to do, um, things like that before"},{"t":20275,"text":"the ratify. That's for sure. Uh, this would be a"},{"t":20278,"text":"step out of what would be a normal process. And"},{"t":20281,"text":"in your professional estimation, because this is my concern. And"},{"t":20285,"text":"so I look to you for your professional thoughts. Um,"},{"t":20289,"text":"is there a risk that this may actually serve to"},{"t":20291,"text":"inflame tensions more. Mr. Johnson. Through the mayor, uh, no,"},{"t":20300,"text":"I don't perceive that as a risk. Um, and this"},{"t":20303,"text":"is usually in preparations for, um, for things like this"},{"t":20307,"text":"to be ratified. And we're already working on, you know,"},{"t":20310,"text":"QA documents and that sort of thing and running through"},{"t":20314,"text":"every possible question that the public may have. Once something"},{"t":20318,"text":"is ratified, so although this is a step out of"},{"t":20320,"text":"process, I don't see it as a, as a risk."},{"t":20325,"text":"Director Hudson, one question just on something that was flagged"},{"t":20328,"text":"by that commentary. Is there any, um, concern raised by"},{"t":20333,"text":"this amendment to the process itself. Of the larger proposal"},{"t":20339,"text":"around its land use application. Planning application, policy application. With"},{"t":20345,"text":"this type of communication at this time. Be problematic. I"},{"t":20349,"text":"heard a reference to the possibility of it being done"},{"t":20351,"text":"once this is all ratified, which would be actually next"},{"t":20355,"text":"week, uh, because of the way that we're schedules are"},{"t":20358,"text":"running. Is that a concern at all. If it's not,"},{"t":20364,"text":"that's fine. I just wanted to make sure that Staff"},{"t":20366,"text":"had an opportunity to consider that. Through the"},{"t":20376,"text":"mayor. No, I don't think this, um, affects the process"},{"t":20381,"text":"and we can deal with this. I want to make"},{"t":20382,"text":"sure. All right. Any other comments on the amendment. Seeing"},{"t":20386,"text":"none, all those in favor. Anybody opposed. That's unanimous. Thank"},{"t":20391,"text":"you very much for that. Councillor Gardner, back to you."},{"t":20395,"text":"Oh yes, Councillor Gardner, you have an additional amendment. It's"},{"t":20400,"text":"just a strike number two. Is that all? Yeah. I"},{"t":20402,"text":"did that so much time do I have left? Do"},{"t":20404,"text":"I have two minutes and 41 seconds? Okay. Yeah. Strike"},{"t":20407,"text":"number two. You just want to strike number two. So"},{"t":20409,"text":"hang on. Staff could you take the bold off of"},{"t":20411,"text":"number seven, please? And then, uh, proposal has enough further"},{"t":20417,"text":"amendment is to strike number two. I suspect, as I"},{"t":20421,"text":"heard earlier that should this indeed be struck that there"},{"t":20423,"text":"are a number of other aspects of this that would"},{"t":20425,"text":"need to be struck as well or amended to accommodate"},{"t":20428,"text":"that reality. So my question to staff is do you"},{"t":20432,"text":"want to highlight those now or wait until we determine"},{"t":20436,"text":"whether or not this is approved by council? Dr. Dawson."},{"t":20441,"text":"Uh, through, through you mayor. Um, so if the intention,"},{"t":20447,"text":"it looks like it would be to have a public"},{"t":20449,"text":"hearing. Then if, uh, if this amendment passes, then we"},{"t":20454,"text":"would suggest replacing it with some, um, some other wording."},{"t":20458,"text":"So I guess that could be included now as part"},{"t":20460,"text":"of the amendment just to sort of set the stage"},{"t":20462,"text":"for a public hearing. Yeah. When did you propose that"},{"t":20465,"text":"so we get it right? Sure. So I think, um,"},{"t":20467,"text":"it would be striking out number two and replacing it"},{"t":20471,"text":"with a new number two, um, which is sort of"},{"t":20474,"text":"a standard language that we have in our reports when"},{"t":20477,"text":"we are having a public hearing. So that would be"},{"t":20479,"text":"that, uh, that pursuant two section 30 of the land"},{"t":20485,"text":"use procedures bylaw."},{"t":20498,"text":"Um, comma, Council requires the holding of a public hearing."},{"t":20505,"text":"And then there would be an amendment to number three."},{"t":20509,"text":"And what would that be? Um. So it would be"},{"t":20514,"text":"striking out after publication of notification in accordance with Section"},{"t":20519,"text":"467 of the local government act. And so then we"},{"t":20527,"text":"have the first second readings. Version. And then striking out"},{"t":20534,"text":"third and final reading. Right. Um, so we want to"},{"t":20539,"text":"say that first, the first and second readings of the"},{"t":20543,"text":"zoning bylaw amendment be considered by Council and a public"},{"t":20546,"text":"hearing date beset. Right. Okay. First. So it might be"},{"t":20551,"text":"easier just to strike it all out or add that"},{"t":20553,"text":"bit. Yeah. That first, that, so it would be that"},{"t":20560,"text":"first and second. Right."},{"t":20573,"text":"Reading a little bit. Very good. Is that sufficient? Yes."},{"t":20576,"text":"All right. Yes. Thank you. All right. So we're just"},{"t":20578,"text":"going to consider that as part of the original amendment"},{"t":20581,"text":"because we want to make sure that it's accurate and"},{"t":20583,"text":"give staff the appropriate direction. And so with that, I"},{"t":20586,"text":"believe Councillor, you seconded that, did you not? Yes, very"},{"t":20590,"text":"good. Councillor Gardner, go ahead on your amendment. Thank you."},{"t":20597,"text":"Many people who review this proposal had a difficult understanding"},{"t":20599,"text":"than what we heard today. There were information gaps in"},{"t":20602,"text":"the document, uh, that made it unclear for people. I"},{"t":20606,"text":"appreciate that the amendment provides a pause for old town."},{"t":20610,"text":"But we actually haven't had much discussion on any other"},{"t":20612,"text":"three aspects of the recommendation package either. And I think"},{"t":20618,"text":"that we need to reassurance and the public needs reassurance."},{"t":20622,"text":"Bylaw detail is needed by the public before we approve"},{"t":20626,"text":"it. So I very much believe that a public hearing"},{"t":20629,"text":"is needed. Thank you. Thank you. Councillor Hammond is the"},{"t":20631,"text":"secondary. Thanks Mayor. Can I ask, and I know I'd"},{"t":20634,"text":"ask the acting director about this before. Does that change"},{"t":20639,"text":"anything? Let's say this were to go ahead to have"},{"t":20641,"text":"a public hearing. Does that change anything about what would"},{"t":20644,"text":"be preparing for the revitalization tax exemption program bylaw. Director"},{"t":20650,"text":"Johnston. Uh, through the mayor. So this would be specifically,"},{"t":20655,"text":"um, directing to have a public hearing before council's consideration"},{"t":20658,"text":"of the zoning amendments. The other aspects of this, uh,"},{"t":20663,"text":"recommendation. So the revitalized action revitalization tax exemption program bylaw."},{"t":20669,"text":"That wouldn't be subject to the public hearing. So, um,"},{"t":20672,"text":"the way this is currently structured, I would, I think"},{"t":20675,"text":"we would be proceeding with those other aspects of the"},{"t":20677,"text":"recommendation. And at the same time, scheduling the public hearing"},{"t":20681,"text":"for the proposed zoning amendments. If council's intention is something"},{"t":20686,"text":"else, then we may need some further. Changes to the"},{"t":20690,"text":"recommendation. Thank you. Well, we'll see how far this goes."},{"t":20694,"text":"Um, on that, I really do, this was a great"},{"t":20698,"text":"example for me of where people were saying, where's the"},{"t":20701,"text":"rush? And there was a lot of things that I"},{"t":20704,"text":"learned in the process. And the clearly many people, and"},{"t":20708,"text":"my guess is people, um, here in the gallery, who"},{"t":20712,"text":"had a different position, not positioned in different understanding as"},{"t":20716,"text":"I did. And so I think for something as important"},{"t":20719,"text":"as this, I think, um, as a matter of fact,"},{"t":20721,"text":"it's a good thing, not just not a bad thing"},{"t":20723,"text":"to not home, but it's a good thing to hold"},{"t":20725,"text":"it. I don't mind saying that somewhere in the process,"},{"t":20729,"text":"we might, just might, even if it's not delayed about"},{"t":20731,"text":"the tax exemption program is that we might hear from"},{"t":20734,"text":"others, uh, about this. And just because I think it's"},{"t":20739,"text":"very easy for someone like me to go, okay, you"},{"t":20742,"text":"know, I ask the questions and I've come to the"},{"t":20746,"text":"conclusion that I'm okay with that, with this. You know,"},{"t":20749,"text":"you give up something in order to get it. But"},{"t":20751,"text":"I know there are going to be other people who"},{"t":20753,"text":"are going to at least bring things to my eyes"},{"t":20756,"text":"and ears about saying why them and not us. And"},{"t":20760,"text":"we can still at the end of the day say,"},{"t":20763,"text":"sorry, there's this greater public policy which goes here and"},{"t":20767,"text":"not for you. Or it might give us pause. I'm"},{"t":20770,"text":"on the tourism board. I know that it's very important"},{"t":20773,"text":"about the, um, you know, from destination greater Victor Victoria's"},{"t":20777,"text":"perspective. But again, I don't, I don't think it would"},{"t":20779,"text":"be harmful of in the public hearing. We might also"},{"t":20782,"text":"hear things about the tax exemption, even though that will"},{"t":20786,"text":"be carrying on. Thank you. Thank you. On the amendment."},{"t":20791,"text":"Anyone else. Councillor Cardona. Yeah. Uh, through you to staff,"},{"t":20796,"text":"why was it that in the, uh, in the original"},{"t":20800,"text":"staff recommendation of public hearing was not recommended. Mr Klean."},{"t":20806,"text":"Through the mayor. It's, it's just kind of a standard"},{"t":20809,"text":"city, uh, procedure, um, zoning changes that are in accordance"},{"t":20813,"text":"with or aligned with city policy that public hearing is"},{"t":20818,"text":"not required. And. Through the mayor, just to add to"},{"t":20823,"text":"that. So, uh, when it proposed zoning amendment is considered"},{"t":20828,"text":"consistent with the official community plan than a public hearing"},{"t":20831,"text":"is not required. Um, and that has been our sort"},{"t":20834,"text":"of standard practice for some time now to, um, to"},{"t":20838,"text":"draft our recommendations in that way for zoning amendments that"},{"t":20842,"text":"are consistent with the OCP. We recommend waving it, but"},{"t":20845,"text":"it is an option for council to have a public"},{"t":20847,"text":"hearing in this case. Okay. Um, given that I think"},{"t":20850,"text":"I'm going to oppose this amendment because this does align"},{"t":20853,"text":"with the OCP. I mean, there was certainly considerable confusion"},{"t":20857,"text":"coming into today. I think on a part of a"},{"t":20859,"text":"number of us and the public. But I think that"},{"t":20861,"text":"that confusion has been sorted out through this conversation through"},{"t":20865,"text":"the number seven that was added in which an FAQ"},{"t":20868,"text":"will go out and through this conversation that I assume"},{"t":20871,"text":"will be reported on by the media today and tomorrow."},{"t":20875,"text":"I think that coming into this, a lot of people"},{"t":20877,"text":"thought that this had to do with heights and density"},{"t":20880,"text":"in Old Town, but we've now confirmed that it does"},{"t":20882,"text":"not. If it did, I definitely think that there should"},{"t":20885,"text":"be a public hearing, but that is actually not material"},{"t":20887,"text":"to our decision. What this is essentially about is pluralizing"},{"t":20890,"text":"the mixed use nature of the central business district and"},{"t":20894,"text":"also proposing an RTE for hotels. And I think that"},{"t":20897,"text":"that could reasonably be advanced without a public hearing. Noting"},{"t":20900,"text":"that just a week or two ago, we approved another"},{"t":20903,"text":"RTE expanding a pilot program for detrofits of buildings around"},{"t":20908,"text":"decarbonization. And we didn't even have a conversation about a"},{"t":20911,"text":"public hearing there. So why would that RTE go ahead"},{"t":20913,"text":"without a public hearing and all of a sudden this"},{"t":20915,"text":"one needs one? Yes. There was some ferment around Old"},{"t":20919,"text":"Town, but the old town elements of this have actually"},{"t":20921,"text":"been delayed. And also going back to my previous statement,"},{"t":20925,"text":"the question of heightened density is actually not on the"},{"t":20927,"text":"table here at all. So given that that has been"},{"t":20930,"text":"clarified, I don't see the rationale for a public hearing"},{"t":20932,"text":"on this decision. Thank you. Anybody else on the amendments?"},{"t":20937,"text":"Councillor Coleman. Thank you. I actually do support this. I"},{"t":20943,"text":"think that, yes, we have waived. We've, we've become used"},{"t":20947,"text":"to the changing legislation that the province has put upon"},{"t":20952,"text":"us where we've done away with many public hearings. It"},{"t":20954,"text":"used to be, we had public hearings on everything. And"},{"t":20958,"text":"that slowed the system down at ground the system down."},{"t":20962,"text":"And we have now, our very few public hearings, um,"},{"t":20966,"text":"this is a slightly larger issue than some of the"},{"t":20970,"text":"other, uh, ones that could have come before us and"},{"t":20974,"text":"we waived. I think that this is large enough that"},{"t":20977,"text":"the notion of having a public hearing will slow the"},{"t":20981,"text":"process down and we need to be aware of that."},{"t":20983,"text":"But it will also, uh, re - engage the public"},{"t":20987,"text":"in something that they are passionately, uh, attached to. There"},{"t":20993,"text":"have been lots of, uh, concerns expressed to us. Some"},{"t":20997,"text":"of them passionate, but not based in reality. Some others"},{"t":21001,"text":"closer to what could happen. And I have used this"},{"t":21005,"text":"in the past, but I remember Councillor Young many years"},{"t":21011,"text":"ago protecting an aspect of downtown because it hadn't been"},{"t":21017,"text":"in a public hearing. It was Waddington Alley. And it"},{"t":21022,"text":"was going to be repaved. And in order to do"},{"t":21025,"text":"that, they wanted to take out all the old wooden"},{"t":21027,"text":"blocks. The heritage wooden blocks in the street. Councillor Young,"},{"t":21032,"text":"bless them, was the acting mayor. Everybody else was away."},{"t":21035,"text":"And he went in and stopped the crew. Said, no,"},{"t":21038,"text":"you can't do that. This is this, this is that"},{"t":21040,"text":"important at the time. Um, he was right. And we"},{"t":21046,"text":"did get lots of emails about this process and one"},{"t":21050,"text":"that particularly struck me described the downtown core particularly as"},{"t":21056,"text":"something that has been curated in a craftsperson manner over"},{"t":21061,"text":"the last 50 years. And sometimes when we wave public"},{"t":21066,"text":"hearings, the opportunity for the public to weigh in and"},{"t":21069,"text":"learn, which goes to number seven that's here, we lose"},{"t":21074,"text":"the opportunity to protect some things that are critical to"},{"t":21078,"text":"the ongoing, uh. Notion of what makes Victoria very special."},{"t":21084,"text":"I also point out that if many people use other"},{"t":21088,"text":"jurisdictions as. A crucible to look at and Paris is"},{"t":21095,"text":"brought up quite often. And if you go to the"},{"t":21098,"text":"second or third floor of the Tour Efel and you"},{"t":21101,"text":"look at most of downtown Paris, it's six to eight"},{"t":21105,"text":"stories. If you look to the Southwest, you get to"},{"t":21110,"text":"La Defence, which is, uh, 50 to 60 stories. It's"},{"t":21115,"text":"280 metres, I think in great height, because they've moved"},{"t":21120,"text":"the density away from the downtown core. But we're talking"},{"t":21123,"text":"about in a microcosm here in Victoria is exactly that."},{"t":21128,"text":"But some of the height that will, we will see"},{"t":21131,"text":"in the CBD. Will potentially have an impact on Old"},{"t":21137,"text":"Town. And that's what I think the public want to"},{"t":21140,"text":"come and learn more about. And I think that that's,"},{"t":21143,"text":"this is a large enough issue that I think a"},{"t":21145,"text":"public hearing is warranted. So I will support this. Thank"},{"t":21150,"text":"you very much. Anybody else on ES amendment? Councillor LoU."},{"t":21154,"text":"Thanks to you, Mayor. Um, I appreciate this amendment coming"},{"t":21157,"text":"forward. And, um, I too, if old town was part"},{"t":21161,"text":"of this, I would support it. But I also just"},{"t":21165,"text":"want to reiterate something in the report and that there"},{"t":21170,"text":"is a window of opportunity here for hotel development that"},{"t":21173,"text":"was highlighted by the hotel development report. And this is"},{"t":21179,"text":"to sort of kickstart that. And I believe that we"},{"t":21182,"text":"need that downtown right now. And the report says that"},{"t":21186,"text":"the viability of this work happening, but this development work"},{"t":21191,"text":"happening around hotels still needs assistance. So, um, having a"},{"t":21197,"text":"public hearing will slow this down. And I don't think"},{"t":21199,"text":"that's the right move for downtown right now. I think"},{"t":21201,"text":"we need to have more people downtown, particularly with the"},{"t":21209,"text":"office spaces from the public employees that are open. There's,"},{"t":21213,"text":"there's, there's a lot of work that needs to be"},{"t":21214,"text":"done and to get creative about what's going to happen"},{"t":21218,"text":"with those spaces. But in the meantime encouraging hotel development"},{"t":21222,"text":"seems like really low hanging fruit where we can just"},{"t":21224,"text":"bring more people downtown. And I think our downtown businesses"},{"t":21228,"text":"and the economic vitality of our downtown is actually starving"},{"t":21232,"text":"for that right now. So, um, unfortunately I will have"},{"t":21236,"text":"to vote against this amendment. Although I do understand the"},{"t":21240,"text":"place where it's coming from. And again, if old town"},{"t":21243,"text":"was part of this, I would support. Thanks. Thank you."},{"t":21247,"text":"Anyone else on the amendment. Council Del. Yeah. I think"},{"t":21250,"text":"that we have, I've reviewed my emails. I mean, essentially"},{"t":21254,"text":"we did not receive any feedback whatsoever about one, uh,"},{"t":21258,"text":"five and six. There was general consensus on that. It"},{"t":21261,"text":"was number four, the old town piece. And what we've"},{"t":21263,"text":"done is added a motion to strip that out of"},{"t":21265,"text":"here and not address that. So, um, a public hearing"},{"t":21268,"text":"at this point based on what we've received, um, is"},{"t":21271,"text":"not of interest to the public until we actually get"},{"t":21273,"text":"around to redoing those policies. So, um, I don't think"},{"t":21276,"text":"this is necessary. I think it creates a risk that"},{"t":21279,"text":"folks will come out to go, uh, don't rezone old"},{"t":21281,"text":"time when we just found out today that's actually not"},{"t":21283,"text":"happening. But that, that's been the big misconception. So it"},{"t":21286,"text":"might actually create an incentive to that. So I'm going"},{"t":21288,"text":"to oppose the amendment motion. Thank you. Anybody else on"},{"t":21294,"text":"the amendment. A question. Mr. McLean. I believe earlier someone"},{"t":21303,"text":"asked a public hearing would be held to consider only"},{"t":21307,"text":"the zoning bylaw amendment. Correct. Yes. That's correct. Does that"},{"t":21312,"text":"mean then that while we were waiting for the public"},{"t":21316,"text":"hearing to occur whenever that might be that the work"},{"t":21321,"text":"identified in number one, number four, number five, number six"},{"t":21325,"text":"and number seven would all take place? Or does any"},{"t":21328,"text":"of that have to wait for the public hearing. Thanks"},{"t":21332,"text":"for the question, Mayor. So, uh, motion one really, it's"},{"t":21335,"text":"to the zoning changes. And that would be, uh, directly"},{"t":21338,"text":"related to preparing for the public hearing. Motions four. Just"},{"t":21345,"text":"making sure I'm referring to the right things here. Motion"},{"t":21347,"text":"four relates to the policy changes to decap, which, um,"},{"t":21352,"text":"are related to upcoming planning work. Five, the revitalization tax"},{"t":21356,"text":"exemption program work can proceed independent of the public hearing"},{"t":21360,"text":"process. And, uh, as with the permitting special events on"},{"t":21365,"text":"private property. So in fact, five and six could proceed"},{"t":21371,"text":"if this is adopted even with this amendment. Is that"},{"t":21374,"text":"correct? That is correct. As seven as well. Sorry. Five,"},{"t":21377,"text":"six, seven. It's all work that could be done any,"},{"t":21379,"text":"anyway. Thank you for that clarification. Um, earlier today, I"},{"t":21383,"text":"was actually prepared to move this very same amendment because"},{"t":21386,"text":"I do feel that the totality of what was there"},{"t":21390,"text":"warranted a public hearing. Now I confess I'm much less"},{"t":21393,"text":"inclined. And that is only because of the work that"},{"t":21396,"text":"my colleagues did with number four in particular. Because I"},{"t":21400,"text":"do believe that what was previously at number four was"},{"t":21403,"text":"in fact the source of quite a bit of concern,"},{"t":21406,"text":"as has been expressed to Council and staff with the"},{"t":21410,"text":"clarification that number four has brought and the delay that"},{"t":21412,"text":"that brings to that work. I'm less inclined to see"},{"t":21415,"text":"the utility of a public hearing. However, I think in"},{"t":21420,"text":"this case given what I consider to be the delay"},{"t":21423,"text":"of the work that was originally described in the first"},{"t":21425,"text":"version of number four. That has taken care of that"},{"t":21429,"text":"issue. And so five, six, and seven can now proceed"},{"t":21434,"text":"regardless of this amendment, as I understand it. And those"},{"t":21437,"text":"three pieces are in fact the pieces I believe are"},{"t":21439,"text":"critical to ensure that there is a message delivered that"},{"t":21444,"text":"we are welcoming now, the consideration of hotel development throughout"},{"t":21447,"text":"the city. Therefore, I don't see the harm in setting"},{"t":21451,"text":"a public hearing. I will say one thing to my"},{"t":21454,"text":"colleagues and my apologies for being so blunt. I have"},{"t":21459,"text":"sought on a council that delayed an important decision until"},{"t":21465,"text":"the last week of a term. And lived to regret"},{"t":21468,"text":"it. And let me tell you that that set this"},{"t":21473,"text":"council on a very difficult start to its term. An"},{"t":21478,"text":"unnecessary start to its term. And so if you are"},{"t":21482,"text":"going to support this amendment, which I will, I want"},{"t":21487,"text":"you to think that we are going to deal with"},{"t":21489,"text":"this on October the 8th. One week before the election."},{"t":21496,"text":"Because to delay it beyond that is to delay our"},{"t":21499,"text":"responsibility and hand it to the next council. If you"},{"t":21503,"text":"are willing to do that. Then hold the public hearing."},{"t":21508,"text":"And I am. The other comments on the amendment."},{"t":21519,"text":"All right. On the amendment. All those in favor. Myself,"},{"t":21526,"text":"Councillor Coleman, Councillor Hammond, Councillor Gardner, and opposition. Councillor Dell,"},{"t":21532,"text":"Councillor Kim, Councillor Caradona, Councillor Loughton. And I believe Councillor"},{"t":21537,"text":"Thompson. Amendment fails. Councillor Gardner, you still have the floor"},{"t":21542,"text":"and you have just under two minutes. Are there any"},{"t":21547,"text":"more amendments first. I'm not aware of other amendments coming."},{"t":21552,"text":"Thank you. Thank you for the report staff. Clerically was"},{"t":21556,"text":"needed and welcome. So thank you for that. And it"},{"t":21559,"text":"was a great amendment creating a pause for Old Town."},{"t":21562,"text":"However, more detail with schematics is needed before approval of"},{"t":21566,"text":"bylaws. Regarding the forgiveness of taxes for the hotel industry,"},{"t":21570,"text":"I cannot support the tax exemption of a private sector"},{"t":21573,"text":"industry for 10 years as proposed in recommendation five. I"},{"t":21578,"text":"do not accept that the hotel industry will not build"},{"t":21582,"text":"another hotel within a without a 10 year tax exemption."},{"t":21587,"text":"The City has an existing jet load of 59, 000"},{"t":21591,"text":"million and significant higher debt will be ahead of us"},{"t":21595,"text":"with the pool. I also cannot support this motion without"},{"t":21599,"text":"a public hearing. Thank you very much. Anyone else on"},{"t":21603,"text":"the main motion as amended. Uh, how Council Hammond, go"},{"t":21610,"text":"ahead. Thanks. Um, I was wondering what I would do"},{"t":21614,"text":"if we didn't get the public hearing. And I'm still"},{"t":21617,"text":"willing to support this. I've, I've been clear about supporting"},{"t":21623,"text":"the Councillor's amendment to have a public hearing that didn't"},{"t":21627,"text":"go forward. I'll be able to explain that to people."},{"t":21630,"text":"Um, on the issue of the tax exemption, I, you"},{"t":21635,"text":"know, there's this whole issue of picking winners and losers."},{"t":21639,"text":"And I'm willing to go along with it. Um, but"},{"t":21641,"text":"I'm also willing to hear from people. And I will"},{"t":21644,"text":"be opening open to changing my mind. Um, on another"},{"t":21648,"text":"vote on this. But that being said, we know we"},{"t":21651,"text":"want more tells. We know it's on the lift and"},{"t":21655,"text":"not on the money that is not there. I also"},{"t":21658,"text":"understand when my colleague is saying, Hey, why are they"},{"t":21661,"text":"putting the money there forward already? We'll see what happens"},{"t":21663,"text":"with this. Thank you. Thank you. Anyone else. Councillor Coleman."},{"t":21668,"text":"Can you sever the, uh, separate the different parts. I"},{"t":21673,"text":"just would like to call out number two particular. So"},{"t":21674,"text":"usually I would be happy to do that, but I"},{"t":21677,"text":"am going to suggest in this case that it is"},{"t":21679,"text":"not appropriate because I read these particular clauses as being"},{"t":21683,"text":"very intertwined and interdependent. So unfortunately, while I would love"},{"t":21687,"text":"to be able to do that on your behalf, I"},{"t":21689,"text":"really believe it would be materially unwise. Thank you. That's"},{"t":21693,"text":"why I asked it as a question. Thank you. Anyone"},{"t":21698,"text":"else. All right. So let's see any other questions or"},{"t":21702,"text":"comments. All those in favor of the motion as amended,"},{"t":21706,"text":"Councillor Dell, Councillor Kim Council Cardinalette, Councillor Loton, myself, Councillor"},{"t":21710,"text":"Hammond in opposition. I'm sorry. End Councillor Thompson. And opposition,"},{"t":21714,"text":"Councillor Coleman and Councillor Gardner. And noting two in opposition,"},{"t":21718,"text":"that motion as amended is adopted. Thank you for your"},{"t":21721,"text":"very much for that council, a very fruitful and thorough"},{"t":21725,"text":"discussion. That takes us on to our one remaining item"},{"t":21729,"text":"of new business, which was item H1. The Council Member"},{"t":21732,"text":"Motion with regard to the enforcement against derelict buildings, neglective"},{"t":21735,"text":"properties and vacant commercial spaces. And stuff, I'm sorry, I"},{"t":21739,"text":"didn't take the time because I'm looking at the time."},{"t":21741,"text":"Thank you so much for your work. We understand how"},{"t":21743,"text":"much went into that. And good luck and thank you."},{"t":21747,"text":"That item H1 was placed on the consent agenda earlier"},{"t":21749,"text":"today. And so it was considered at that time when"},{"t":21752,"text":"we'll return to a future council meeting for final consideration."},{"t":21755,"text":"We have no requirement for a closed meeting at committee"},{"t":21757,"text":"today. And so I would look for a motion to"},{"t":21759,"text":"adjourn. Thank you Councillor Coleman, seconded by Councillor Kim. All"},{"t":21763,"text":"those in favor. Anyone opposed. That is unanimous. Before you"},{"t":21766,"text":"all run away, I'm going to suggest to you that"},{"t":21768,"text":"we do have a very brief daytime council meeting, uh,"},{"t":21772,"text":"the bulk, if not all of which is proposed for"},{"t":21774,"text":"the consent agenda. If that stands, we can deal with"},{"t":21777,"text":"this quickly. I do think we need to rise at"},{"t":21779,"text":"five o'clock. There is one item in clothes that requires"},{"t":21783,"text":"attention today. And so I would suggest that we leave"},{"t":21787,"text":"staff only the amount of time they need to convert"},{"t":21789,"text":"us into the daytime council meeting. And that we address"},{"t":21791,"text":"the CAACAT agenda expeditiously and see what we can do."},{"t":21794,"text":"I would prefer not to return later this evening to"},{"t":21798,"text":"conclude any items from the daytime a Council. So I"},{"t":21801,"text":"would urge us to be efficient, expedient and a little"},{"t":21805,"text":"bit generous with our time. So staff, tell us when"},{"t":21808,"text":"you're ready to go for daytime council."}],"words":58067,"fetchedAt":"2026-10-03T04:45:37.388Z"}