{"videoId":"https://video.isilive.ca/victoria/New%20Encoder_COTW_2026-06-25-12-01.mp4","source":"isilive_vtt","segments":[{"t":90,"text":"Various projects, programs, and policies. And it's important for us"},{"t":94,"text":"to publicly, whenever possible, understand and acknowledge the fact that"},{"t":99,"text":"the resilience that the nations have shown for so many"},{"t":101,"text":"generations continues to be remarkable. And the opportunities that we"},{"t":105,"text":"have to work together on behalf of all of the"},{"t":107,"text":"people who live in the city in particular, but in"},{"t":110,"text":"the region as a whole, is not something to be"},{"t":113,"text":"taken lightly. And in fact, is to be treasure. When"},{"t":116,"text":"we have the chance to work together and to think"},{"t":118,"text":"about the future, we also want to remember what has"},{"t":121,"text":"gone before us and try to face the challenges of"},{"t":125,"text":"the current day with an eye to the past as"},{"t":127,"text":"well as the future. And so whenever we do that,"},{"t":130,"text":"I always want to try and remind people at some"},{"t":132,"text":"point during the day to take a moment to reflect"},{"t":136,"text":"on something or to observe something or to just think"},{"t":139,"text":"about something that they can attribute to the remarkable work"},{"t":143,"text":"of the nations that provides something personally important to them"},{"t":147,"text":"in their own lives. And sometimes with that, we like"},{"t":149,"text":"to thank them in their own language, which is to"},{"t":151,"text":"say simply hatch asm or hijicacyam d'aguilio. And to do"},{"t":155,"text":"that, we honour a little bit of their history, and"},{"t":158,"text":"we recognise a great deal of the value that we"},{"t":161,"text":"place on our ongoing relationships. Hidricacy, I'm Nick Williams. I"},{"t":168,"text":"have no additional remarks to make today. There are many"},{"t":171,"text":"opportunities to participate during the various items that we have"},{"t":174,"text":"in our agenda. So we'll move on right to late"},{"t":177,"text":"items. I'm not aware of any late items that need"},{"t":180,"text":"to be added to today's agenda. So with that, I"},{"t":183,"text":"will look for someone to move the published agenda as"},{"t":186,"text":"it is. Thanks, Councillor Coleman. Seconded by Councillor Dell. Any"},{"t":190,"text":"discussion on the agenda as published. Seeing none, all those"},{"t":195,"text":"in paper at the agenda. Anyone opposed. And a unanimous."},{"t":199,"text":"I will check my iPad a little more frequently than"},{"t":201,"text":"usual to make sure that Councillor Hammond has a chance"},{"t":203,"text":"to participate as he desires. So the agenda is approved"},{"t":209,"text":"unanimously. That takes us on to the consent agenda. There"},{"t":212,"text":"are two items proposed for the consent agenda. Item G1,"},{"t":216,"text":"the recommendation for the cannabis room at 1545 Fort Street."},{"t":220,"text":"An item H1, the Council Member Motion with regard to"},{"t":223,"text":"advocacy to the province to restore better terms for property"},{"t":227,"text":"tax deferral programs for seniors and others in need. Anything"},{"t":231,"text":"that anyone would like to remove or add? Councillor Thompson."},{"t":236,"text":"Like to remove H1 and add F1. You'd like to"},{"t":240,"text":"remove H1. And add F1. So H1 is easy to"},{"t":246,"text":"remove. We usually just as a custom, remove anything anyone"},{"t":249,"text":"wishes to discuss. Adding something, look around the table. Does"},{"t":253,"text":"anyone object? The adding F1. Just checking online. Councillor Gardner."},{"t":259,"text":"Only because we've had letters about it. F1, so not"},{"t":262,"text":"removing, not adding F1, okay? So F1 will remain and"},{"t":267,"text":"we will deal with that next. That would mean that"},{"t":270,"text":"our consent agenda is just item G1. The recommendation for"},{"t":273,"text":"the cannabis room at 1545 4th Street. With that, with"},{"t":277,"text":"someone like to move the consent agenda. Thanks, Councillor Coleman,"},{"t":280,"text":"Second by Councillor Kim. All those in favor. And I"},{"t":283,"text":"want to pose. That is unanimous. Thank you for that."},{"t":288,"text":"And we'll deal with H1 when we get there. So"},{"t":290,"text":"that takes us on to F1. This is the first"},{"t":293,"text":"of our land use matters. Actually, our own denlined use"},{"t":296,"text":"matter. This is the rezoning application and development permit with"},{"t":300,"text":"variances application for 1908 foul bay road. I believe if"},{"t":305,"text":"I recall that there is a presentation. So staff wants"},{"t":307,"text":"your settled and ready to go. We'll turn the floor"},{"t":310,"text":"over to you."},{"t":331,"text":"Once you're ready, if you will remind us who you"},{"t":333,"text":"are for the public, as well as for council, that"},{"t":335,"text":"would be super helpful. Good morning, Mayor Alto and members"},{"t":339,"text":"of Council. My name is Chloe Tunis, and I'm a"},{"t":342,"text":"Senior Planner here at the City of Victoria. Today I'll"},{"t":346,"text":"be presenting a rezoning and development permit application for 1908"},{"t":350,"text":"Faul Bay Road that would increase the permitted density and"},{"t":353,"text":"allow for a new six - story rental building with"},{"t":356,"text":"87 units. The existing site is home to a former"},{"t":359,"text":"utilities building. Here on the screen are the relevant Sections"},{"t":366,"text":"of the local government Act that enable the rezoning and"},{"t":369,"text":"development permit process. Further details on these sections are included"},{"t":372,"text":"in the attachments in the report. For the rezoning relevant"},{"t":376,"text":"considerations include increasing the density from 1. 6 to 2."},{"t":381,"text":"42 to 1 floor space ratio, as well as adding"},{"t":386,"text":"studio use with office, retail trade, and personal service as"},{"t":391,"text":"additional permitted uses within a studio for the ground floor"},{"t":395,"text":"units along Fal Bay Road. This effectively allows worklive as"},{"t":400,"text":"a use for these units. For the development permit with"},{"t":404,"text":"variances, the relevant considerations include consistency with the design guidelines"},{"t":409,"text":"and the impact of the requested variances. The variances relate"},{"t":414,"text":"to landscape area, setbacks, sighting, building height, parking, as well"},{"t":420,"text":"as the requirement for commercial uses along Falby Road. Both"},{"t":425,"text":"the rezoning and development permit our recommended for support subject"},{"t":429,"text":"to revisions that would improve consistency with policy and ensure"},{"t":432,"text":"compliance with building code and stormwater requirements. The recommended motion"},{"t":436,"text":"for the rezoning application also includes legal agreements to secure"},{"t":441,"text":"the property as rental in perpetuity. The ground floor indoor"},{"t":446,"text":"amenity space for common use by residents. Green roofs on"},{"t":449,"text":"both the primary building and Bicycle storage room, as well"},{"t":453,"text":"as additional public realm improvements for the crosswalk road beyond"},{"t":459,"text":"what is required in the works and services bylaw. Here"},{"t":467,"text":"we go. This is the site context. So you can"},{"t":471,"text":"see these subject property is immediately adjacent to the fort"},{"t":475,"text":"at phall bay shopping centre in the Jubilee neighbourhood. The"},{"t":478,"text":"surrounding area includes a mix of commercial uses as well"},{"t":481,"text":"as low to mid - rise residential uses. The site"},{"t":484,"text":"is one block from the Oak Bay Recreation Centre within"},{"t":487,"text":"the Boker Creek watershed and near the Jubilee Hospital. Here"},{"t":494,"text":"is an image of the existing site viewed from the"},{"t":496,"text":"corner of Beuchier and Fal Bay Road. These images show"},{"t":504,"text":"the adjacent properties directly adjacent to this subject site. The"},{"t":511,"text":"first image, the first image shows the area north of"},{"t":516,"text":"the subject site along Faul Bay Road. You can see"},{"t":519,"text":"the site backs onto the BC liquor store within the"},{"t":522,"text":"shopping centre. The second image shows voucher street where the"},{"t":526,"text":"subject cite abuts a mid - block pedestrian pathway next"},{"t":530,"text":"to the savon foods warehouse. On FALBAY across the street,"},{"t":536,"text":"dwellings and a four - story seniors facility. On voucher"},{"t":541,"text":"street, the street is generally comprised of single - family"},{"t":545,"text":"dwellings. So within the context of the OCP, the property"},{"t":553,"text":"is within the town centre designation and specifically the Jubilee"},{"t":558,"text":"Town Centre. Town Centres are major nodes outside the downtown"},{"t":562,"text":"core that provide opportunities to support interrelated housing, mobility, and"},{"t":566,"text":"public space objectives. It's worth noting here that the City"},{"t":571,"text":"Initiated existing zoning was put into place as part of"},{"t":576,"text":"the Zoning Modernization phase one, which was adopted alongside the"},{"t":581,"text":"OCP in Fall 2025. As part of this work, the"},{"t":585,"text":"maximum envision density for town centres and villages specifically was"},{"t":589,"text":"not embedded directly within the zoning. Instead, the OCP and"},{"t":593,"text":"related policies provide guidance on what may be achieved through"},{"t":596,"text":"a rezoning process. With that in mind, the rezoning and"},{"t":602,"text":"development policy provides further direction specific to"},{"t":627,"text":"This policy envisions a mix of four to six -"},{"t":630,"text":"story mid - rise building forms with densities of approximately"},{"t":633,"text":"three to one floor space ratio. The proposal for six"},{"t":636,"text":"stories and 2. 4 to one FSR is consistent with"},{"t":640,"text":"this vision. The proposal is also consistent with the housing"},{"t":645,"text":"prioritization direction in the policy by delivering 87 new rental"},{"t":649,"text":"units and exceeding the minimum zoning requirements for the proportion"},{"t":653,"text":"of two and three bedroom units. The rezoning and developed"},{"t":659,"text":"this rezoning and development policy map. Highlights that the site"},{"t":663,"text":"is adjacent to two frequent transit networks shown by the"},{"t":667,"text":"yellow lines as well as several existing and desired pedestrian"},{"t":670,"text":"connections. I'll now go over the details of the proposal"},{"t":676,"text":"as well as more analysis on the proposed variances. This"},{"t":680,"text":"rendering shows the proposal looking toward the corner of Beucher"},{"t":683,"text":"Street and Faul Bay Road. As you might be able"},{"t":685,"text":"to see in the rendering, uh, the ground level units"},{"t":689,"text":"have direct access to the street on both front edges."},{"t":694,"text":"Here's the site plan. Um, the application would provide significant"},{"t":698,"text":"frontage works through the works and services Bylaw as they"},{"t":703,"text":"are required through their works and services bylaw, including separated"},{"t":706,"text":"bike lanes and sidewalk realignment. The proposal also includes an"},{"t":711,"text":"additional approvement beyond those required for a portion of the"},{"t":715,"text":"crosswalk bay road. And this would be secured through a"},{"t":719,"text":"legal agreement. Which is included in the recommended motion. Here"},{"t":725,"text":"is the parquet level, the applicant is requesting a 21"},{"t":729,"text":"stall vehicle parking variance. Based on the site's proximity to"},{"t":732,"text":"multiple transit priority networks and the provision of significant mobility"},{"t":737,"text":"supporting infrastructure, the requested parking variances considered supportable. This shows"},{"t":742,"text":"the ground floor plan. The proposed plans are for a"},{"t":745,"text":"fully residential building. However, the current zoning requires commercial uses"},{"t":750,"text":"along Faul Bay Road. The development permit would vary this"},{"t":753,"text":"requirement to allow residential uses along foul bay road. Policy"},{"t":758,"text":"direction supports flexibility here as commercial activity is generally focused"},{"t":762,"text":"further north in the town centre along Fort Street and"},{"t":766,"text":"in the adjacent Richmond village. The rezoning would, however, add"},{"t":771,"text":"worklive or studio as a permitted use. This would provide"},{"t":776,"text":"potential opportunity for active street frontages. While the building design"},{"t":780,"text":"does not fully meet the guidelines for future work, live,"},{"t":783,"text":"or commercial conversion, it still offers some potential adaptability. On"},{"t":787,"text":"balance, both the rezoning change for studio worklive and the"},{"t":790,"text":"variance to allow residential units along Fal Bay Road are"},{"t":794,"text":"considered supportable. Here's the level two floor plan. And typical"},{"t":800,"text":"floor plans for levels three to six. Here's the elevation"},{"t":805,"text":"plan along voucher. As you can see, the main entry"},{"t":808,"text":"is along Becher Street. And here's the elevation along Fort"},{"t":814,"text":"Street. This is the area where the studio or workliv"},{"t":818,"text":"units would be added as a permitted use. This elevation"},{"t":826,"text":"is the, this is the North Elevation, which fronts along"},{"t":831,"text":"that BC liquor store that we saw in the, uh,"},{"t":834,"text":"in the surrounding context images. And here's the West elevation"},{"t":841,"text":"that fronts onto the mid - block pedestrian path. And"},{"t":848,"text":"these are the elevations along Beuchier and Fort Street that"},{"t":852,"text":"also include the streetscape context. Here we have the landscape"},{"t":860,"text":"plan. The amenity area, the outdoor amenity area is located"},{"t":864,"text":"to the north of the building. And a portion of"},{"t":867,"text":"the long - term bicycle storage is located and a"},{"t":871,"text":"portion of the long - term bicycle storage is located"},{"t":874,"text":"in the accessory building to the north. While a statutory"},{"t":878,"text":"rate of way to widen the mid - block pedestrian"},{"t":881,"text":"pathway was not provided as part of this application, the"},{"t":884,"text":"proposal does include improvements to support pathway users at the"},{"t":888,"text":"West Property line. This include lighting directed toward the pathway"},{"t":893,"text":"adjacent plantings that maintained sight lines and a direct gated"},{"t":898,"text":"connection from the subject site to the path. The rear"},{"t":903,"text":"setback variances along this west property line are recommended for"},{"t":907,"text":"support as greater setbacks are provided in the side yard"},{"t":910,"text":"to allow for usable outdoor space. So the side yard"},{"t":914,"text":"is considered the area where the, uh, the outdoor amenity"},{"t":917,"text":"space is. While the outdoor amenity space may have limited"},{"t":924,"text":"usability in cooler months given its location directly to the"},{"t":927,"text":"north of the building. This is offset somewhat by the"},{"t":931,"text":"provision of revised indoor amenity space secured through legal agreement,"},{"t":936,"text":"which will provide additional amenity options for residents. The variance"},{"t":942,"text":"to reduce the amount of landscaped area is inconsistent with"},{"t":945,"text":"the general urban design guidelines direction to limit underground parking"},{"t":950,"text":"footprints. However, it is recommended for support due to the"},{"t":954,"text":"provision of green roofs, a revised and secured indoor amenity"},{"t":958,"text":"space, as well as compliance with minimum tree replacement requirements"},{"t":962,"text":"and stormwater requirements. Overall, the proposal is generally consistent with"},{"t":971,"text":"the applicable policy - related to land use, density, and"},{"t":974,"text":"built form, and it advances policy objectives for the creation"},{"t":978,"text":"of new purpose - built rental housing. The proposal does"},{"t":982,"text":"depart from some policy directions, specifically with respect to the"},{"t":985,"text":"impacts of the large parquet footprint and the design of"},{"t":989,"text":"the outdoor amenity space. That said on balance, the proposal"},{"t":993,"text":"is considered acceptable given the site context within the Jubilee"},{"t":996,"text":"Town Centre, the public realm improvements, and significant frontage works,"},{"t":1001,"text":"the secured rental housing, secured amenity space, and the inclusion"},{"t":1005,"text":"of green roofs. Therefore, staff recommend that Council advance the"},{"t":1009,"text":"application subject to the revision's outlined in the motion. That"},{"t":1013,"text":"includes my presentation, and I'm happy to take any questions."},{"t":1016,"text":"Thank you very much, Planner. Let us start with questions."},{"t":1021,"text":"Councillor Gardner. Yes, and I don't mind moving it and"},{"t":1025,"text":"doing questions at the same time. That'll speed things up."},{"t":1027,"text":"Let's just see if there are any other actual questions"},{"t":1030,"text":"first. I have questions about questions to start. That's fine,"},{"t":1034,"text":"then I'm pleased to move it. Okay. Thank you. And"},{"t":1036,"text":"thank you for the presentation. Now I have several questions,"},{"t":1040,"text":"and they relate to the, oops, my computer's opting up"},{"t":1043,"text":"again. Uh, to the fact that, um, we do have"},{"t":1047,"text":"some letters and concerns. So, um, what is the density"},{"t":1053,"text":"and height limits for the property to the north? In"},{"t":1055,"text":"other words, what you show there in that schematic, uh,"},{"t":1059,"text":"with the actual, um, should we say, mall area where"},{"t":1063,"text":"the Sevon complex sits. What will be the actual density"},{"t":1066,"text":"and heights permitted there down the road? Mayor Jeannes. Through"},{"t":1073,"text":"the mayor, so the existing density maximum is it's currently"},{"t":1078,"text":"in the same zone as the subject property. So the,"},{"t":1081,"text":"the existing density is, uh, 1. 6 to one FSR."},{"t":1086,"text":"However, as mentioned in my presentation, uh, the zoning update"},{"t":1093,"text":"for town centres and villages, uh, focused the policy direction"},{"t":1099,"text":"within, or the envisioned use for these sites, um, within"},{"t":1103,"text":"the policy direction rather than within the, uh, actual zoning."},{"t":1108,"text":"So the policy direction envisions for that site, uh, three"},{"t":1112,"text":"to approximately five FSR, depending on the provision of a"},{"t":1118,"text":"number of strategic priorities within the rezoning development policy. And"},{"t":1123,"text":"on that, sorry, in on that site, in other words,"},{"t":1126,"text":"to the north, uh, given the three to five FSR,"},{"t":1129,"text":"what kind of height would be anticipated down the road."},{"t":1133,"text":"If the OCP is maxed out? Unertunous? The existing permitted"},{"t":1140,"text":"height is 14 metres. Uh, the envision tight is, uh,"},{"t":1147,"text":"is four to six stories or up to 12 to,"},{"t":1154,"text":"I'll just have to double check. I believe it's 12"},{"t":1155,"text":"to 18 stories where significant, um, uh, public benefits are"},{"t":1163,"text":"provided and it meets a number of strategic priorities within"},{"t":1167,"text":"the rezoning and development policy and OCP. Thank you. I"},{"t":1171,"text":"just wanted the public to understand the relationship of the."},{"t":1177,"text":"Proposal before us with what may be coming down the"},{"t":1179,"text":"road right next door. Cause I think it adds context."},{"t":1182,"text":"On the junior 11th report, page six states that a"},{"t":1185,"text":"caliq report was not received at the time of the"},{"t":1187,"text":"report was written. However, the loss attachment to the file,"},{"t":1190,"text":"uh, is an email from the South Jubilee Caluke. So"},{"t":1195,"text":"that attachment is not dated. Can someone tell me what"},{"t":1197,"text":"date that was received. Mary Tini. I'd have to double"},{"t":1203,"text":"check on that. Just take a look here."},{"t":1250,"text":"I don't have the information on when this was submitted."},{"t":1253,"text":"The meeting was November 20th, 2024. Um, at the time"},{"t":1258,"text":"of writing this report, uh, I wasn't aware of, of"},{"t":1261,"text":"this being submitted. So it's possible that it was submitted"},{"t":1264,"text":"after, uh, the posting of the, no one knows the"},{"t":1269,"text":"date when it was submitted, even though it was two"},{"t":1271,"text":"years ago that they had the colour. As tuna's. Through"},{"t":1277,"text":"the mirror, I can confirm with another one of our"},{"t":1280,"text":"staff members. He'll give me a moment. Ms. Rain, you"},{"t":1287,"text":"do have a staffer, I think, standing behind you who"},{"t":1290,"text":"may, I think he wants to answer the question. Is"},{"t":1293,"text":"this move your staff? Thank you. Okay."},{"t":1310,"text":"Uh, so I see here that it was actually submitted"},{"t":1314,"text":"after the CALUC meeting December 12th, 2024. Um, so that's,"},{"t":1320,"text":"that is, that's an error in the report. It was"},{"t":1323,"text":"received, uh, we were aware of the additional correspondence. But"},{"t":1330,"text":"thank you, because it just begs a question as to"},{"t":1332,"text":"whether or not the Calic input is actually really considered."},{"t":1338,"text":"By staff or whether it's just performer for public to"},{"t":1342,"text":"know that someone has seen it. So I just raised"},{"t":1345,"text":"out because it was very important for me to see"},{"t":1347,"text":"that. I think it's something we make, one, I'll think"},{"t":1349,"text":"about. Okay. The Community meeting was suggested. Hang on, Councillor,"},{"t":1353,"text":"Ms. Wendy of something you'd like to offer at that"},{"t":1355,"text":"point. Okay. Thank you for the opportunity to elaborate Charlotte"},{"t":1359,"text":"Wayne, manager of neighbourhood development planning. And through the mayor,"},{"t":1362,"text":"I think just for clarity, one of the intents of"},{"t":1366,"text":"the calact meeting is really for providing feedback to the"},{"t":1368,"text":"applicant. Um, and really they obviously attend that meeting and"},{"t":1372,"text":"they take on board the comments that come out of"},{"t":1374,"text":"that meeting and the intent of that is really to,"},{"t":1379,"text":"um, start the consultation early, um, so they can incorporate"},{"t":1384,"text":"changes to their proposal when staff receive the actual official"},{"t":1388,"text":"official record from the CALOC, that time period does vary."},{"t":1393,"text":"Sometimes it's immediately after the meeting. Sometimes it can be"},{"t":1396,"text":"up to a year or longer before staff received that"},{"t":1398,"text":"information. But really the intent is for the applicant to"},{"t":1401,"text":"hear the feedback from the community. Thank you. Thank you."},{"t":1404,"text":"Mr. Johnston. The Community meeting Councillor Disecration. I'm sorry. Mr."},{"t":1408,"text":"Johnston's. Thank you through the mayor just to add to"},{"t":1412,"text":"that. Um, staff, uh, complete their review against Councilprove Policies"},{"t":1419,"text":"and Regulations and provide that analysis to Council for consideration"},{"t":1423,"text":"along with any correspondence, including the record of the meeting,"},{"t":1427,"text":"um, from the CALOC meeting to help inform council's decisions."},{"t":1432,"text":"So, um, just wanted to elaborate on that in terms"},{"t":1434,"text":"of the purpose of the record is to help Council"},{"t":1438,"text":"in making, um, their decision. Thank you. Go ahead, Councillor."},{"t":1442,"text":"Thank you. Uh, at the Community meeting. Sorry at the"},{"t":1446,"text":"Community meeting, it was suggested the exterior colour scheme be"},{"t":1449,"text":"lighter. Now this doesn't look that dark to me. So"},{"t":1452,"text":"I didn't know, was there an earlier version that was"},{"t":1454,"text":"actually much darker. Students. There were some changes"},{"t":1464,"text":"to the materiality, um, and part of that was the"},{"t":1468,"text":"outcome of the, uh, advisory design panel. But generally, um,"},{"t":1474,"text":"the colour scheme is consistent. With the original proposal. Okay."},{"t":1480,"text":"Thank you. Um, the indoor amenity on slide number 22."},{"t":1486,"text":"If you go back one slide. Okay. I assume it's"},{"t":1491,"text":"in the top right corner. Or where was it. Through"},{"t":1499,"text":"the mayor? Um, so there's an area within the building"},{"t":1503,"text":"labelled amenity space just to the south of the outdoor"},{"t":1507,"text":"amenity space. Written the centre of the slide. Oh, right"},{"t":1513,"text":"there. Okay. Thank you. And is there a slide there"},{"t":1516,"text":"was some concern about access to the outdoor there, but"},{"t":1519,"text":"it looks fine. I assume they're sliding doors. There was"},{"t":1521,"text":"something that opens up to the garden area, does it?"},{"t":1524,"text":"Is there? Through the mayor, there is in the recommended"},{"t":1528,"text":"motion, a condition to revise that, uh, indoor amenity space"},{"t":1535,"text":"to provide greater permeability from the amenity air indoor amenity"},{"t":1540,"text":"area to the outdoors. So to sort of make it"},{"t":1544,"text":"a more cohesive set of amenity spaces. Great. Thank you"},{"t":1550,"text":"very much. Are there to be any accessible units. Yes."},{"t":1557,"text":"It's in compliance with the BC building code 2020 or"},{"t":1561,"text":"2018. And there are six adaptable units. So no accessible"},{"t":1567,"text":"just adaptable. I believe the building code term for accessible"},{"t":1572,"text":"is adaptable. Instead of it, I think it's instead of"},{"t":1578,"text":"accessible, but that's okay. Okay. They live work units. How"},{"t":1581,"text":"does the City treat these units with respect to Zoni"},{"t":1583,"text":"and taxation. Winer tunas."},{"t":1594,"text":"Yeah. I think it's."},{"t":1608,"text":"Going to. The mayor unless their primarily commercial. My understanding"},{"t":1615,"text":"is that they're deemed to be residential units. Thank you"},{"t":1619,"text":"very much. That's my questions, Mayor. I have comments and"},{"t":1624,"text":"would be willing to move it. I have Councillor Thompson"},{"t":1626,"text":"and Councillor Cardino with questions. Thanks Mayor. And through you,"},{"t":1634,"text":"thanks very much for the analysis and presentation. A lot"},{"t":1638,"text":"of my questions have been answered, but I did want"},{"t":1640,"text":"to ask a little bit about those bike lanes. On"},{"t":1647,"text":"the foul bayside there, there's. You know, as somebody who"},{"t":1652,"text":"rides a bike as well as drives my car, uh,"},{"t":1656,"text":"when I'm on a major street like that, I just"},{"t":1657,"text":"want to get somewhere. I'm not out for a leisure"},{"t":1659,"text":"ride. Wondering why we have a curvy bike lane in"},{"t":1663,"text":"there instead of just something going straight through. Yeah. I'll"},{"t":1670,"text":"defer to our transportation team for that question. Mr. Kenny,"},{"t":1675,"text":"did you hear that question. Good morning, Mayor and Council."},{"t":1680,"text":"I was just pulling up the drawing myself. So the,"},{"t":1684,"text":"um, so the curvingness, are you reflecting as you're coming"},{"t":1687,"text":"down foul bay road than Councillor Thompson? So the intent"},{"t":1691,"text":"to the curve there is to create a pedestrian refuge."},{"t":1694,"text":"Um, between the two - way bike lane and the"},{"t":1697,"text":"street, um, which helps to shorten the crosswalk and the"},{"t":1700,"text":"crossing distance across Falvey Road and improve pedestrian visibility for"},{"t":1704,"text":"a left turner is coming off goldsmith. Okay. Thanks. That"},{"t":1706,"text":"makes sense. Um, on the front of, uh, coucher."},{"t":1715,"text":"Voucher. But your guess is as good as mine. Um,"},{"t":1719,"text":"uh, we have a bike lane going, I guess, westbound."},{"t":1723,"text":"And then it abruptly curves out. And I'm just wondering,"},{"t":1725,"text":"are we anticipating any conflicts with people kind of just"},{"t":1729,"text":"zooming out of the bike lane. And entering traffic? Mr."},{"t":1733,"text":"County through the mayor. So, um, I think one of"},{"t":1735,"text":"the, just overall when we're doing these frontage designs, sometimes"},{"t":1738,"text":"we do rented a challenges of the refinements of the"},{"t":1741,"text":"designs where we want to, um, trying to save the"},{"t":1745,"text":"development community time at respective points along the process. Um,"},{"t":1749,"text":"but generally with the idea was that right now there's"},{"t":1752,"text":"a temporary two way claim that we installed on Falby"},{"t":1755,"text":"Road. It ends right at the intersection of busher and"},{"t":1758,"text":"the intent of this connection is to get people from"},{"t":1760,"text":"the Jubilee neighbourhood, um, up to say the Sablent foods"},{"t":1764,"text":"and over to Oak Bay Rec Centre, bringing it around"},{"t":1767,"text":"the corner and away from the intersection of Fal Bay"},{"t":1769,"text":"Road just improves sight lines, uh, for vehicles that are"},{"t":1772,"text":"turning off on and off of Falbey Road to see"},{"t":1774,"text":"people that are cycling onto the connection here. Um, but"},{"t":1778,"text":"what we have done with the design is there's a,"},{"t":1781,"text":"uh, it's just South of where just below where the"},{"t":1783,"text":"drawing is cut off. Um, but the bike lane extends"},{"t":1787,"text":"further out into the road. And then the parking bay"},{"t":1789,"text":"behind it. So people that are cycling have a very"},{"t":1791,"text":"good, uh, line of sight to the road and people,"},{"t":1794,"text":"um, being able to see them who might be driving."},{"t":1796,"text":"Um, I also believe that Boucher has speed humps on"},{"t":1798,"text":"it again to control speeds. Um, and keep speeds low"},{"t":1800,"text":"for everybody. Right. Okay. Thanks very much. Thank you, Councillor"},{"t":1805,"text":"Caradona. Thanks very much, Mayor, and through you to staff."},{"t":1808,"text":"Thank you for the report. I want to focus really"},{"t":1811,"text":"squarely on the question of mixed use, which is the"},{"t":1813,"text":"main issue that jumped out at me here. And if"},{"t":1815,"text":"we go back to the map that shows where this"},{"t":1818,"text":"subject site is located within the town centre, yeah, that"},{"t":1823,"text":"one, I think. So when I'm reading the report on"},{"t":1826,"text":"page seven, it says current zoning requires commercial uses along"},{"t":1830,"text":"the Falvet Road frontage. That seems clear. The next sentence"},{"t":1834,"text":"says the rezoning and development policy supports act of frontage"},{"t":1837,"text":"in this area, but does not require commercial use at"},{"t":1839,"text":"this site. With stronger emphasis plays closer to the core"},{"t":1843,"text":"Jubilee Town Centre. Those two sentences seem directly in contradiction"},{"t":1845,"text":"to me. Could you explain that and also explain why"},{"t":1851,"text":"mixed use was not required when this is clearly in"},{"t":1854,"text":"the town centre zone. Honour Tunis? Through the mayor, thank"},{"t":1861,"text":"you for the question. Um, so as part of the"},{"t":1863,"text":"zoning update, uh, work that was done, uh, focus of"},{"t":1869,"text":"that was, was simplifying the zone's, you know, down from"},{"t":1873,"text":"the 900 we had, uh, and so what that means"},{"t":1877,"text":"is there's one single zone for town centre. But all"},{"t":1882,"text":"of the same requirements may not apply in the same"},{"t":1886,"text":"way. And therefore, there may be some sites where certain"},{"t":1890,"text":"variances would be justified. And in that way, we look"},{"t":1892,"text":"to the policy. So for the policy here, this is"},{"t":1897,"text":"the rezoning and development policy. You can see the red"},{"t":1902,"text":"lines, the solid red lines are where active ground floor"},{"t":1906,"text":"uses are required as through the policy. And then they're"},{"t":1910,"text":"desired where there's the dotted red lines. So for the"},{"t":1915,"text":"area of this site, uh, that isn't, those aren't specifically"},{"t":1918,"text":"identified. Well, there may be some benefit to having commercial"},{"t":1924,"text":"along there. Really, the, the focus of the, uh, the"},{"t":1928,"text":"Jubilee Town Centre policy is to focus that those commercial"},{"t":1933,"text":"uses, um, along Fort Street and the Fort and Fal"},{"t":1937,"text":"Bay intersection as well as further, further west toward the"},{"t":1942,"text":"Richmond village. Okay. And following up on that in terms"},{"t":1945,"text":"of the live work sites or the units that are"},{"t":1949,"text":"presumably at grade, I mean, as far as I understand,"},{"t":1952,"text":"there's an option for the people living there to say,"},{"t":1954,"text":"have an art studio or pottery studio or something like"},{"t":1956,"text":"that, but no obligation to do so. Someone could just"},{"t":1958,"text":"live there and use it as residential. That, that's through"},{"t":1962,"text":"the mayor, that's correct. And what, what exactly is the"},{"t":1964,"text":"live work site policy allow folks to do there? Exactly."},{"t":1968,"text":"Are you allowed to have offsite sales? Like if you"},{"t":1971,"text":"wanted to run an art studio, let's say, or maybe"},{"t":1973,"text":"a florist, let's say, um, is there a situation in"},{"t":1976,"text":"which customers are walking onto the site and purchasing goods"},{"t":1981,"text":"from that live workspace. Entertainers? Yeah. Through the mayor, the"},{"t":1988,"text":"proposed use would be the studio use, which is already"},{"t":1991,"text":"defined in the zoning, which is really like an artist"},{"t":1996,"text":"space, um, as described. Um, but with additional potential for"},{"t":2002,"text":"office retail trade and personal service within a studio. So,"},{"t":2008,"text":"so there could be the potential for people on site."},{"t":2012,"text":"Of course, depending on the nature of the business, um,"},{"t":2015,"text":"and, and, and this does not preclude commercial as a"},{"t":2021,"text":"permitted use. That'll still be a permitted use in the"},{"t":2023,"text":"zoning. Um, though there may be building code challenges depending"},{"t":2028,"text":"on what business would go in there. Okay. So if"},{"t":2033,"text":"I'm understanding correctly, there's a possibility that there could be"},{"t":2036,"text":"a retail component there, but, but no guarantee. And the"},{"t":2039,"text":"limits based upon the zoning. I guess my question for"},{"t":2043,"text":"you is given that the OCP is brand new. The"},{"t":2046,"text":"ink is barely dry in it. This were ground truthing"},{"t":2050,"text":"and testing a lot of these things that are really"},{"t":2052,"text":"quite new for the community. This is clearly within the"},{"t":2055,"text":"town centre. Is there a risk here. That we're sending"},{"t":2058,"text":"a signal to the development community that says, you know"},{"t":2060,"text":"what, when it comes to Community Villages or town centres,"},{"t":2063,"text":"MIX uses optional. Through the mayor, I think with the"},{"t":2071,"text":"policy shows that the focus for the Jubilee Town Centre"},{"t":2075,"text":"is that commercial use at the, uh, along the Main"},{"t":2079,"text":"Street, specifically talks about focusing and in general, not just"},{"t":2084,"text":"for the Jubilee Town Centre, but for town centres in"},{"t":2086,"text":"general, focusing employment uses on Main Streets. In this case,"},{"t":2091,"text":"the Main Street would be Fort Street. So in that"},{"t":2096,"text":"way, this is consistent with the policy. Okay. I'll leave"},{"t":2102,"text":"it there. Thanks. Okay. Any other questions. Let's see another"},{"t":2107,"text":"question. This concerner you wanted to move this. Is there"},{"t":2109,"text":"a second. Councillor Dell. Go ahead, Council Carter. Yes. Thank"},{"t":2112,"text":"you. I'm going to start with a quick question. Um,"},{"t":2115,"text":"which follows something, the comments just made. We have seen,"},{"t":2119,"text":"of course, the live work on Cook Street. Uh, which"},{"t":2122,"text":"is really quite activated. That area is be the same"},{"t":2125,"text":"kind of zoning. The same kind of, uh, opportunity. Martinez."},{"t":2132,"text":"Yes. Yes. That's correct. Yes. Thank you. It's really quite"},{"t":2136,"text":"activated that area. The South Jubilee Calick report states. This"},{"t":2141,"text":"proposed development location is one of the better locations in"},{"t":2145,"text":"South Jubilee for building development. The site has a large"},{"t":2147,"text":"commercial property that saved on shopping centre immediately behind into"},{"t":2152,"text":"the west. And there are no residential homes on any"},{"t":2155,"text":"side of the site. I think that's a very positive"},{"t":2159,"text":"statement given the developments we have seen. This report goes"},{"t":2164,"text":"on to say that those living on the South side"},{"t":2165,"text":"of Bochar Street will have some impact, which is true."},{"t":2169,"text":"There will not be any rooftop of many space. And"},{"t":2173,"text":"that is actually good for those residents and bouchard street."},{"t":2176,"text":"The OCP 2050 has an upper limit of 18 stories."},{"t":2180,"text":"As you've mentioned, this proposal has six. OCP 50 permits"},{"t":2187,"text":"to density of up to 5. 5. Where's this proposal"},{"t":2189,"text":"is 2. 42. Negative, uh, I believe is that the"},{"t":2194,"text":"parking is a bit light. But given the location and"},{"t":2197,"text":"proximity to transit, many retail outlets and medical services, the"},{"t":2201,"text":"parking may suffice. The side amenity space of 3, 000"},{"t":2205,"text":"square feet will be well used, especially if families with"},{"t":2209,"text":"children move into the complex. Access to the pathway also"},{"t":2213,"text":"gives a good feel for the side facing ground -"},{"t":2215,"text":"oriented housing units. So I'm in full support of this"},{"t":2218,"text":"proposal. Thank you, Mayor. Thank you very much, Councillor Dell"},{"t":2222,"text":"as the secondary. Sure, I will also speak in support"},{"t":2225,"text":"of this. I just want to note, uh, maybe as"},{"t":2227,"text":"a resident settub Jubilee that the existing site has been,"},{"t":2230,"text":"uh, what I would basically call a blight on the"},{"t":2232,"text":"community for many, many years is a vacant telesbuilding. God"},{"t":2235,"text":"knows what's in there. But, um, it's basically been essentially"},{"t":2238,"text":"boarded up and fenced off for a long time and"},{"t":2241,"text":"really not adding anything whatsoever. So I think the project"},{"t":2243,"text":"I've seen many iterations, I think about three years ago,"},{"t":2249,"text":"16 story building plan there. So hopefully people are a"},{"t":2251,"text":"little bit happy with six stories. Um, one of the"},{"t":2254,"text":"only things that has kind of torn me a little"},{"t":2256,"text":"bit about this is the lack of commercial space on"},{"t":2258,"text":"Foul Bay. I think with time, that will be a"},{"t":2260,"text":"mistake because this area is going to densify a fair"},{"t":2263,"text":"bit. There'll be a lot of people moving in. They'll"},{"t":2265,"text":"be density down the corridor foul bay and elsewhere. And"},{"t":2269,"text":"I think there will be a lot of shops that"},{"t":2270,"text":"don't necessarily need parking in the front, but can, um,"},{"t":2273,"text":"just add some vibrancy to the neighbourhood. But that's it."},{"t":2276,"text":"That's not something that I'm willing to, uh, to move"},{"t":2278,"text":"at this time. Cause I think the proponent has a"},{"t":2280,"text":"good plan. And I think there's enough flexibility that once"},{"t":2282,"text":"there are more people, we can add that commercial space"},{"t":2284,"text":"back there. Um, but otherwise, I think this will be"},{"t":2287,"text":"a good addition. And I definitely haven't heard much about"},{"t":2289,"text":"it in my own neighbourhood. Although recognising one family wrote"},{"t":2292,"text":"in across the street, uh, and I understand those concerns"},{"t":2295,"text":"for sure. But otherwise, I think this is good to"},{"t":2297,"text":"move forward. Thank you. Consent cardinal. Uh, thanks very much,"},{"t":2301,"text":"Mayor. And similarly, I think there is a bunch of"},{"t":2303,"text":"things here to support. And I will support this proposal"},{"t":2308,"text":"moving forward at 87 Purpose Bill Rental Units are much"},{"t":2311,"text":"needed. I think the density is the right level. I"},{"t":2314,"text":"like the green roofs. I like the fact that it"},{"t":2316,"text":"exceeds the family housing policy. All of that is supportable."},{"t":2318,"text":"The problem here is lack of mixed use. And to"},{"t":2322,"text":"put it bluntly, I simply disagree with how staff interpreted"},{"t":2325,"text":"the OCP and the zoning here. If this were across"},{"t":2328,"text":"the street from a town centre, okay, maybe, but it's"},{"t":2331,"text":"actually right in a town centre. And I do think"},{"t":2333,"text":"that there is a very, very big risk that we"},{"t":2335,"text":"are going to today send a message to the development"},{"t":2337,"text":"community that if you don't want to build mixed use"},{"t":2339,"text":"in our town centres, you don't have to. You can"},{"t":2341,"text":"vary your way out of it with live work or"},{"t":2343,"text":"whatever. That's a problem. The OCP makes it really clear"},{"t":2346,"text":"that we're supposed to be supporting a mixed use city,"},{"t":2349,"text":"especially in our villages in town centres. Otherwise, what's the"},{"t":2353,"text":"point here? So I think it's a mistake, frankly. And"},{"t":2357,"text":"I think it's a missed opportunity. And so I just"},{"t":2358,"text":"really urge staff for future applications in urban villages and"},{"t":2363,"text":"town centres to push harder for mixed use. Because the"},{"t":2366,"text":"reality is that CRUs just don't make the kind of"},{"t":2368,"text":"revenue that the residential does. So if you're just a"},{"t":2371,"text":"single bottom line thinker, as a lot of developers are,"},{"t":2374,"text":"you're going to go for a residential residential residential unless"},{"t":2378,"text":"the zoning really forces you into mixed use. I think"},{"t":2381,"text":"others want to do mixed use, but some just don't."},{"t":2383,"text":"So I do think it's, it's a mistake here. And"},{"t":2386,"text":"potentially precedent setting, but I don't want to stand in"},{"t":2388,"text":"the way of adding important purpose - built rentals to"},{"t":2391,"text":"the city. But I do have serious misgivings about how"},{"t":2393,"text":"this one played out. Thanks Mayor. Thank you Councillor Lawton."},{"t":2399,"text":"Good morning. And through you mayor. I just have a"},{"t":2402,"text":"quick question. And apologies that this is in the report"},{"t":2406,"text":"and I missed it, but was this a project in"},{"t":2409,"text":"stream when we adopted Victoria 2050. Honour Tunis. Through the"},{"t":2416,"text":"mayor, yes, that's correct. So is that part of the"},{"t":2419,"text":"reason around the, you just flexibility with the mixed use"},{"t":2424,"text":"component of this. Uh, through the mayor, in relation to"},{"t":2431,"text":"the commercial uses specifically, uh, the main consideration was really"},{"t":2436,"text":"the consistency with policy, uh, where commercial was not envisioned"},{"t":2444,"text":"for every ground floor space within the town centre. Okay."},{"t":2450,"text":"Okay. For me, I'm just sort of going to interpret"},{"t":2453,"text":"it that this was, it was in stream. So there's"},{"t":2457,"text":"some kinds of maybe a bit of boars that not"},{"t":2460,"text":"accurate. Like it's just a little bit of flexibility there"},{"t":2463,"text":"because the project was already. In like significantly into its"},{"t":2468,"text":"planning stages. Connor Tunis. Through the mayor, uh, I can"},{"t":2472,"text":"think of other aspects where maybe the in - stream"},{"t":2476,"text":"element was, was a consideration such as the landscape area,"},{"t":2481,"text":"uh, requirement, which was a new requirement, um, and created"},{"t":2485,"text":"a new, a new variance, uh, as well as design"},{"t":2492,"text":"guidelines around, uh, reduced parking footprints. So, so in that"},{"t":2498,"text":"way, the in - stream process, uh, the fact that"},{"t":2501,"text":"it was in stream was a consideration there. Uh, I,"},{"t":2506,"text":"I can't, I wouldn't describe that the lack of requiring"},{"t":2513,"text":"commercial on the ground floor as being a result of"},{"t":2515,"text":"it being in stream. Okay. All right. Thanks for that."},{"t":2519,"text":"Um, I just, I just have a brief comment here."},{"t":2522,"text":"I think this is exactly the kind of project that"},{"t":2526,"text":"should be delivered on this site. It aligns with the"},{"t":2529,"text":"vision for Victoria 2050. And it brings together the essentials"},{"t":2533,"text":"that we're looking for, much needed family oriented housing, proximity"},{"t":2537,"text":"to everyday amenities. And seamless multimodal transportation not making this"},{"t":2544,"text":"not only critically needed family housing, but it's meaningful climate"},{"t":2548,"text":"action as well, which is strengthened further by the inclusion"},{"t":2551,"text":"of green roofs and the and sustainable design. So I'm,"},{"t":2555,"text":"I'm happy to support this today. And, uh, thanks for"},{"t":2558,"text":"the presentation and thanks to staff for your work. Thank"},{"t":2562,"text":"you Councillor Thompson. Thanks Mayor. Yeah, I'm glad to see"},{"t":2566,"text":"this one move forward. Um, the, uh, the work done"},{"t":2571,"text":"for the OCP shows a really bold, vibrant vision for"},{"t":2574,"text":"the area. The sketches that we saw. And I think"},{"t":2577,"text":"this is going to be a great start to making"},{"t":2580,"text":"that happen and contribute vibrancy to the area. Um, it'll"},{"t":2586,"text":"also bring more customers to the existing businesses that are"},{"t":2588,"text":"at Fort and Valais Bay, which need customers. It'll deliver"},{"t":2594,"text":"the much needed housing. We're still thousands of homes short"},{"t":2599,"text":"thousands of units of latent demand. It'll be a good"},{"t":2605,"text":"part of the Jubilee town centre. Um, I'm there several"},{"t":2609,"text":"times per week. And right now the existing building is"},{"t":2613,"text":"a dead space that actually brings the, uh, vibrancy of"},{"t":2616,"text":"the, of the neighbourhood down. So, um, I do like"},{"t":2621,"text":"the vibrancy that, uh, ground floor, uh, retail, uh, brings,"},{"t":2626,"text":"but not every building needs to be a mixed use"},{"t":2628,"text":"building. And some of them, uh, they're not always going"},{"t":2632,"text":"to be viable. And sometimes we see these ground floor,"},{"t":2636,"text":"uh, retail spaces in a mixed use building that are"},{"t":2638,"text":"empty and are actually deadening the area. So, um, but"},{"t":2644,"text":"this building, uh, you know, it has the flexibility that,"},{"t":2649,"text":"uh, if in the future, um, something more intensely retail,"},{"t":2654,"text":"uh, becomes viable in that area. Like if the foot"},{"t":2657,"text":"traffic, uh, it can be used that way. So very"},{"t":2660,"text":"happy to see this go forward. Thank you. Thank you"},{"t":2662,"text":"very much. Councillor Kim. Through the chair. Thank you for"},{"t":2668,"text":"this. A question to staff. Um, this is right on"},{"t":2671,"text":"the border of oak bay. What can you speak to"},{"t":2677,"text":"anything oak bay might have envisioned for the area. And"},{"t":2680,"text":"how it interfaces with our vision. Who would like to"},{"t":2685,"text":"take that. Ms. Wayne. Thank you for the question. We"},{"t":2689,"text":"don't have that information. No, we base our decisions based"},{"t":2693,"text":"on council approved policy. But I know through the OCP"},{"t":2697,"text":"update IX. That would have been communication with oak bay"},{"t":2704,"text":"as a joining municipality through the policy preparation. Okay. Just"},{"t":2711,"text":"to add through the mayor, the crosswalk upgrades do include"},{"t":2715,"text":"collaboration with oak bay as it's going across the centre"},{"t":2719,"text":"line. And we'll involve upgrades there. Okay. Thanks. Just the"},{"t":2724,"text":"reason I ask is because, uh, it, it is on"},{"t":2728,"text":"the border. And we can't think of it as just"},{"t":2731,"text":"like the town centre on the one side of the"},{"t":2733,"text":"road. It is a bit of an ecosystem. And, um,"},{"t":2736,"text":"I mean, part of the reason I like this project"},{"t":2739,"text":"is because you're offering rentals, uh, right next to a"},{"t":2742,"text":"recreation centre that is not within the City of Victoria."},{"t":2746,"text":"Um, but would serve those residents anyway. Um, on top"},{"t":2749,"text":"of not being a food desert, there's also this small"},{"t":2754,"text":"businesses on oak bay avenue just a few blocks away"},{"t":2757,"text":"on both the Victoria and oak base side. So to"},{"t":2760,"text":"me, it's actually a collection of, um, amenities and businesses"},{"t":2765,"text":"and things that will create a livable space that are"},{"t":2769,"text":"not just within the City of Victoria boundaries that actually"},{"t":2772,"text":"make this really, um, quite lovely for me. That's why."},{"t":2776,"text":"Thanks. How's it Coleman. Thank you. Yes, I too was"},{"t":2780,"text":"struck by the fact that we have a village town"},{"t":2784,"text":"centre. On the border of the City of Victoria with"},{"t":2790,"text":"another municipality and how town centres actually aren't constrained by"},{"t":2796,"text":"municipal borders. We might want to think about that later"},{"t":2799,"text":"in the amalgamation discussion, but it's not germane to this"},{"t":2801,"text":"particular one. But it does have an impact and it"},{"t":2806,"text":"was referenced earlier that if you take a look at"},{"t":2808,"text":"Cook Street Village, particularly at Cook and Sutledge, um, the"},{"t":2813,"text":"live work units there have added enormously to the vibrancy"},{"t":2818,"text":"of the village centre, which is all within Victoria. It"},{"t":2823,"text":"was particularly useful to read the, uh, minutes of the"},{"t":2828,"text":"advisory design panel as it came forward. It was a"},{"t":2830,"text":"good discussion in late 2025. Um, and we have seen"},{"t":2835,"text":"some changes within the, uh, application as it came forward."},{"t":2839,"text":"It's the developers looked at it. Um, I think that"},{"t":2842,"text":"this is an extraordinary opportunity to what number of us"},{"t":2847,"text":"have described as dead space in the past. It is"},{"t":2852,"text":"the right move. I know it's never going to be"},{"t":2855,"text":"a perfect application, but this is one that works. And"},{"t":2858,"text":"if you take a look at the adjacency, particularly to"},{"t":2861,"text":"recreational opportunities, not within our municipality, but one block away,"},{"t":2867,"text":"it becomes an incredible addition to a village centre or"},{"t":2874,"text":"a town centre, as we call it. That speaks vibrantly"},{"t":2877,"text":"about community as opposed to municipality. So I'm quite supportive."},{"t":2882,"text":"Thank you. Thank you very much. Councillor Hem and I"},{"t":2885,"text":"see you are there ready to vote. Do you have"},{"t":2887,"text":"a comment to make. Go ahead. Yeah. Just a short"},{"t":2889,"text":"one. If you don't mind mayor. Go ahead. Sure. Sure."},{"t":2894,"text":"Um, I cycled by this building once or twice a"},{"t":2896,"text":"week and I, uh, when I saw the plans, I"},{"t":2899,"text":"like the height, uh, the two bedrooms to support family"},{"t":2901,"text":"housing. And I understand the parking, especially in this location."},{"t":2906,"text":"I even like the look of it. Not that I"},{"t":2908,"text":"should have any say in that. But I think this"},{"t":2909,"text":"will make a good contribution to the neighbourhood. Thanks. Thank"},{"t":2912,"text":"you very much. Everyone's had a chance to question and"},{"t":2917,"text":"speak. I would, uh, echo and while not repeat all"},{"t":2920,"text":"of the positive comments made by my colleagues. I do"},{"t":2923,"text":"think this is an elegant use of it underused period"},{"t":2927,"text":"of land. And it's nice to see something designed in"},{"t":2930,"text":"this way to really maximize the use. With that, it's"},{"t":2935,"text":"been moved and seconded lots of conversation. All those in"},{"t":2938,"text":"favor. Is anyone opposed? That is unanimous. Thank you very"},{"t":2943,"text":"much. Thank you, my grandmother watched out for that presentation."},{"t":2946,"text":"And thank you to the applicant for continuing to invest"},{"t":2949,"text":"in the city. That moves us on to staff reports."},{"t":2953,"text":"The first one item G1. This was the recommendation for"},{"t":2955,"text":"the cannabis room at 1545 4th Street. That was placed"},{"t":2959,"text":"on the consent agenda earlier today. And so that will"},{"t":2962,"text":"return to us at a later daytime Council meeting. Does"},{"t":2966,"text":"then take us on to item G2. This is phase"},{"t":2969,"text":"two of the zoning bylaw modernization program. Uh, number of"},{"t":2973,"text":"prisons or presenters rather from staff. Point of order. You"},{"t":2979,"text":"folks get settled just a second place. Once you folks"},{"t":2981,"text":"get settled, uh, then you'll be able to get going."},{"t":2984,"text":"Yes. Go ahead, Councillor. Given the importance in late notice"},{"t":2987,"text":"for this, I would really ask that we expand the"},{"t":2991,"text":"time available to councilrs to give comment and ask questions,"},{"t":2997,"text":"et cetera. You are aware certainly that you have every"},{"t":3000,"text":"opportunity to do that. And all you need to do"},{"t":3002,"text":"is move a motion to suspend the rules of procedure"},{"t":3006,"text":"for this particular item. You need to specify a time"},{"t":3009,"text":"the item itself. You need a seconder and two thirds"},{"t":3012,"text":"majority of council to extend the time. Thank you. I"},{"t":3016,"text":"move such emotion with an extension of Seven more minutes."},{"t":3019,"text":"Thank you. So you would like each person to have"},{"t":3022,"text":"17 minutes. Off to 17. It would depend maybe a"},{"t":3026,"text":"lot shorter. Last time I asked for extension, it was"},{"t":3028,"text":"a lot shorter in the end. All right. Is there"},{"t":3031,"text":"a seconder to extend the allowable time to speak on"},{"t":3034,"text":"this matter to 17 minutes. Councillor Hermond is seconding that."},{"t":3041,"text":"So it's been moved in seconded. On you have a"},{"t":3044,"text":"very brief opportunity to, uh, explain why you wish to"},{"t":3047,"text":"suspend the rules brief. Just you will go through their"},{"t":3052,"text":"usual procedures. So first the mover, then the seconder and"},{"t":3055,"text":"then we'll go to questions. We have received many, many"},{"t":3058,"text":"emails in the last couple of days. And it was"},{"t":3059,"text":"a very short notice. And it's actually, uh, this is"},{"t":3063,"text":"the first time that Council was presented with all three"},{"t":3066,"text":"zones for the entire urban industrial land reserve, including areas"},{"t":3070,"text":"close to residential areas. We had not received any really"},{"t":3073,"text":"advance of this before. Good. Councillor Henry. You seconded the"},{"t":3077,"text":"motion. Uh, do you have any comments on the motion"},{"t":3079,"text":"to extend. Nothing further, Mirror. Okay. Councillor Coleman, you have"},{"t":3085,"text":"a question. I have a question. If we are opposing"},{"t":3088,"text":"questions, that is not included in the time. Yes, it"},{"t":3093,"text":"is. Both your questions and your comments. Thank you. The"},{"t":3097,"text":"responses from stuff or not. Okay. So it's been moved."},{"t":3101,"text":"Second into question has been asked. Yes, Councillor, can you"},{"t":3103,"text":"have a question? May I'm motivate against? Absolutely. Yeah. Um,"},{"t":3108,"text":"we were actually given a heads up in the emails"},{"t":3111,"text":"that we received from staff ahead of time listing agenda"},{"t":3114,"text":"items. Thanks. Thank you very much. Anyone else on the"},{"t":3118,"text":"motion to extend the time from 10 to 17 minutes."},{"t":3122,"text":"Checking online. Nope. Okay. So remember this requires a two"},{"t":3125,"text":"thirds majority that requires six votes in favor. All those"},{"t":3129,"text":"in favor. Council for Hammond, Councillor Coleman, Councillor Gardner. And"},{"t":3135,"text":"opposition. Councillor Dell, Councillor Kim, Councillor Cardona Councillor Loughton, myself"},{"t":3140,"text":"and Councillor Thompson. So the motion to extend from 10"},{"t":3143,"text":"to 17 fails. Councillor Gerner, do you have any other"},{"t":3146,"text":"emotions to make at the point. Nope. Okay. So that"},{"t":3150,"text":"will take us on then to consideration of item G2,"},{"t":3153,"text":"the zoning bylaw modernization phase two. See, we have staff"},{"t":3157,"text":"ready to present over to you folks. Good morning, Mayor"},{"t":3161,"text":"and Council. My name is Mike Angrove Acting Manager of"},{"t":3164,"text":"Planning and Regulatory Services. And with me today is Jim"},{"t":3166,"text":"Handy acting assistant director of demot services. And Robert Batallis,"},{"t":3170,"text":"Senior Planner in Citywide Planning. Today, we will be presenting"},{"t":3173,"text":"on phase two of Zoning Byla Modernization. And I'll hand"},{"t":3177,"text":"it off to Mr. Batalus to begin. Thank you very"},{"t":3179,"text":"much. Welcome Mr. Patellis. Good morning, Mayor and Council. Uh,"},{"t":3185,"text":"we are here today to present three updated industrial zones"},{"t":3187,"text":"that have been developed through phase two of the Zoning"},{"t":3189,"text":"Modernization Project that was directed as a priority implementation action."},{"t":3194,"text":"As part of the recent approval of the official Community"},{"t":3196,"text":"Plan. The presentation will also provide background information and highlight"},{"t":3200,"text":"related implementation steps. It should also be noted that modernizing"},{"t":3204,"text":"zoning for the city's employment lands aligns with related directions"},{"t":3207,"text":"from the City's corporate plan and strategic plan. As a"},{"t":3214,"text":"reminder, phase one of Zoning Modernization was primarily focused on"},{"t":3218,"text":"introducing new residential zone Citywide that align and implement the"},{"t":3221,"text":"OCP. While phase two has been focused on updating zoning"},{"t":3225,"text":"for industrial properties contained within the OCP urban industrial reserve"},{"t":3230,"text":"as generally shown on the map and an attachment be"},{"t":3232,"text":"of the Council report. Key out comes from this work"},{"t":3235,"text":"include transitioning the regulation of over 600 industrial properties with"},{"t":3239,"text":"over 30 zones from the older zoning regulation bylaw to"},{"t":3243,"text":"zoning bylaw 2018. Using three modernized industrial zones. Further protecting,"},{"t":3249,"text":"maintaining an intensifying the city's industrial land - based. And"},{"t":3254,"text":"better supporting the economic health and viability of highly important"},{"t":3257,"text":"industrial businesses and activities. Development of the proposed industrial zones"},{"t":3265,"text":"has been largely informed through in - depth and extensive"},{"t":3267,"text":"engagement efforts from the industry arts and innovation district action"},{"t":3271,"text":"plan and the official Community Plan update that both occurred"},{"t":3274,"text":"throughout 2024 and 2025. This included targeted engagement with industrial"},{"t":3279,"text":"landowners and businesses, including those along the working harbour to"},{"t":3282,"text":"better understand their current and future needs, existing barriers and"},{"t":3286,"text":"opportunities for growth. These earlier engagement efforts were also available"},{"t":3290,"text":"to the broader Community through - in - person and"},{"t":3292,"text":"online engagement opportunities. In addition to the earlier engagement, in"},{"t":3299,"text":"January of this year, the City further engaged directly with"},{"t":3301,"text":"heavy and marine industrial stakeholders at a workshop hosted at"},{"t":3304,"text":"Pointhope Maritime to discuss the review and update of the"},{"t":3307,"text":"City Victory of Noise bylaw and zoning modernization. Then in"},{"t":3313,"text":"April, the City hosted the draft industrial zones on the"},{"t":3315,"text":"city engagement website for public feedback and mailed information postcards"},{"t":3320,"text":"to over 600 individual property owners and businesses Citywide. Only"},{"t":3326,"text":"a few questions of clarification or received through this engagement"},{"t":3328,"text":"process, however, the City has received recent correspondence that's included"},{"t":3332,"text":"in attachment D for reference. Mr. Angrove now provide an"},{"t":3336,"text":"overview of the proposed industrial zones and next steps for"},{"t":3338,"text":"implementation. Thank you. Strangro. So going through the three zones,"},{"t":3344,"text":"the first one is the light industrial one zone, which"},{"t":3346,"text":"would replace similar light industry zones in the zoning regulation"},{"t":3349,"text":"bylaw. The intent is similar to that for the industry"},{"t":3352,"text":"arts and innovation district in order to preserve ground floor"},{"t":3355,"text":"light industry while allowing for some flexibility on the upper"},{"t":3358,"text":"floors, both through use in a slight increase in height."},{"t":3361,"text":"The FSR would remain the same at 3. 0 to"},{"t":3364,"text":"one FSR. The heavy industrial one zone would replace standard"},{"t":3370,"text":"and heavy industrial zones in the zoning regulation bylaws such"},{"t":3372,"text":"as the M3 and M4 zones. These properties tend to"},{"t":3376,"text":"be buffered by light industry and are therefore suitable for"},{"t":3378,"text":"more intensive industrial uses, which are critical for services and"},{"t":3381,"text":"jobs in the region. The FSR again remains the same"},{"t":3385,"text":"at three to one FSR. And the height is increased"},{"t":3388,"text":"from 15 metres to 25 metres. In both of these"},{"t":3391,"text":"new zones, the use definitions are consolidated compared to the"},{"t":3394,"text":"zoning regulation bylaw, which results in greater flexibility and adaptability"},{"t":3398,"text":"for industrial businesses. The marine industrial one zone was introduced"},{"t":3403,"text":"in phase one of zoning Byla Modernization for the industry"},{"t":3405,"text":"arts and innovation district. This Zonex similar to the heavy"},{"t":3408,"text":"industrial zone, but more focused on marine industries that benefit"},{"t":3411,"text":"from the deep water harbour. Similar to the heavy industrial"},{"t":3414,"text":"zone, the FSR remains at three to one and height"},{"t":3417,"text":"for buildings increases to 25 metres. In this instance, the"},{"t":3420,"text":"height for structures increases to 30 metres, which is similar"},{"t":3422,"text":"to some of the taller silos already existing along the"},{"t":3425,"text":"harbour. A new definition of port has also been created"},{"t":3428,"text":"to reflect the unique and existing operations at Ogden Point."},{"t":3433,"text":"On the last point, the modernization work does not supersede"},{"t":3436,"text":"the comprehensive planning process that the GVHA is currently undertaking."},{"t":3440,"text":"The city is simply moving properties from the zoning regulation"},{"t":3442,"text":"bylaw over to the modernized zoning Byla 2018. The GVHA"},{"t":3446,"text":"planning work is ongoing and will likely result in a"},{"t":3449,"text":"future applicant - led rezoning, which would include various stages"},{"t":3452,"text":"of Community Consultation. The City is currently in the process"},{"t":3458,"text":"of reviewing the off - street parking regulations with a"},{"t":3460,"text":"Council Ened approach from fall of 2025 and engagement that"},{"t":3465,"text":"occurred in fall and winter of 2025. More recent conversations"},{"t":3468,"text":"as part of this industrial zoning work have identified a"},{"t":3471,"text":"desire from industrial stakeholders for greater flexibility in the proposed"},{"t":3475,"text":"off - street parking rates. For instance, changing work conditions,"},{"t":3479,"text":"including eb and flow of contracts, mean parking rates change"},{"t":3482,"text":"from week to week. Similarly, the on - site space"},{"t":3485,"text":"being used for parking one month could be needed for"},{"t":3488,"text":"laydown equipment the next month. Under the current regulations, these"},{"t":3491,"text":"sorts of changes would potentially need variants applications, and therefore"},{"t":3495,"text":"options have been presented for council to consider to update"},{"t":3498,"text":"the parking approach, as we'll be identified later in the"},{"t":3501,"text":"presentation. Engagement with stakeholders also identified a need to update"},{"t":3506,"text":"the design guidelines for industrial uses. The harbour road industrial"},{"t":3510,"text":"waterfront design guidelines do not reflect the current operations at"},{"t":3514,"text":"point - home maritime. Similarly, the industrial guidelines in the"},{"t":3517,"text":"general urban design guidelines are more geared towards light industry."},{"t":3522,"text":"Staff are therefore requesting direction to rescind the Harbour Road"},{"t":3524,"text":"guidelines and update the good guidelines to better reflect the"},{"t":3528,"text":"current industrial landscape. Finally, vehicle sales and rental are currently"},{"t":3533,"text":"permitted in a number of existing industrial zones in the"},{"t":3537,"text":"Zoning Regulation Bylaw. And indeed can be found on some"},{"t":3539,"text":"of the urban industrial land reserve properties. In the past,"},{"t":3542,"text":"this uses previously been identified as a highly land -"},{"t":3545,"text":"intensive with low employment numbers, and more recently we are"},{"t":3548,"text":"seeing it become more of a retail use with smaller"},{"t":3551,"text":"showrooms and vehicles stored offsite. Therefore, staff proposed excluding this"},{"t":3556,"text":"use from the land reserved to better protect it for"},{"t":3558,"text":"actual industrial uses. That said, there still is a place"},{"t":3561,"text":"for vehicle sales and rentals in a city, and as"},{"t":3564,"text":"such, staff will be considering opportunities to include this use"},{"t":3566,"text":"through upcoming policy work and phases of zoning modernization. In"},{"t":3571,"text":"summary, the recommended motion before council would bring bylaw amends"},{"t":3574,"text":"to modernize the zoning for the urban industrial land reserve"},{"t":3577,"text":"by bringing the lands over from the zoning regulation bylaw,"},{"t":3581,"text":"two zoning bylaw 2018, as well as give direction to"},{"t":3583,"text":"update the design guidelines. The recommended motion also includes exempting"},{"t":3589,"text":"the lands in the urban industrial land reserve from vehicle"},{"t":3591,"text":"parking, similar to an exemption that is proposed for downtown"},{"t":3595,"text":"and will be before council in the coming months. Loading"},{"t":3598,"text":"accessible and bicycle parking would still be required. However, an"},{"t":3601,"text":"alternate motion should council choose it would maintain the current"},{"t":3604,"text":"rates for industrial uses. Thank you in this concludes our"},{"t":3607,"text":"presentation. Thank you very much. Let us begin with questions."},{"t":3612,"text":"Councillor Dell to start Councillor Cardinal. Okay. Council Bill? Oh,"},{"t":3621,"text":"thank you. Thank you so much. Um, through the mayor,"},{"t":3624,"text":"um, I'm the representative for the James Bay neighbourhood, and"},{"t":3628,"text":"that's probably where we have received the most feedback from"},{"t":3630,"text":"in the last week. So, um, my questions are about"},{"t":3634,"text":"the particularly the Ogden Point Zone and some of the"},{"t":3636,"text":"other areas around there, the marine industrial zone. Um, I"},{"t":3640,"text":"think leading to my question is the concern that something"},{"t":3643,"text":"is changing. And so I've seen a couple, the technical"},{"t":3646,"text":"amendments that are changing. We're moving the zoning bylaw from"},{"t":3649,"text":"an older one into a new one. Can you just"},{"t":3652,"text":"reiterate? I know this was in the report, but just"},{"t":3654,"text":"at a simple level for the marine industrial zone. What"},{"t":3656,"text":"are we transitioning from and what are we transitioning to"},{"t":3659,"text":"in terms of the bylaw? Mr. Angrove. So through the"},{"t":3664,"text":"mayor, Ogden Point is currently zoned M2, which is a"},{"t":3667,"text":"light industrial zone under a former memorandum of understanding. It"},{"t":3671,"text":"was also proposed to be zoned to the M1S zone,"},{"t":3675,"text":"which is a marine industrial district. So we are shifting"},{"t":3677,"text":"it over to the marine industry district in Zoning Bylaw"},{"t":3681,"text":"2018, which has similar uses to both of those zones."},{"t":3686,"text":"Okay, thank you. Thanks for doing it. Can you talk"},{"t":3690,"text":"about the report talks about some terms that are changing"},{"t":3694,"text":"when we're updating definitions and kind of expanding definitions? So"},{"t":3697,"text":"can you talk about what. I guess what practically might"},{"t":3702,"text":"change in this particular zone? Does it terminology allow any"},{"t":3707,"text":"sort of practical differences? I saw two height differences on"},{"t":3710,"text":"there. That's kind of something that's measurable. Is there any"},{"t":3712,"text":"other measurable zones? Or is it mostly terminology at this"},{"t":3715,"text":"point? Measurable changes, sorry. Mr. Tell us. Uh, through mayor"},{"t":3721,"text":"alto. Essentially, as Mr. Angrove has explained it, it is"},{"t":3725,"text":"primarily through similaritos that we did in phase one as"},{"t":3727,"text":"the most sort of a transition from the current zoning"},{"t":3729,"text":"ballot to the new one, which is an updated framework."},{"t":3732,"text":"The densities are being retained. Uh, yes, heights have been"},{"t":3735,"text":"increased and largely. That's been informed from having technical discussions"},{"t":3738,"text":"with a lot of these operators looking at their needs"},{"t":3740,"text":"for buildings, warehouse structures, silos, all of those types of"},{"t":3744,"text":"different equipment. That exists there today. Um, in terms of"},{"t":3747,"text":"the list of permitted uses, when you look at the"},{"t":3749,"text":"current M2, it's quite an extensive list, a very highly"},{"t":3753,"text":"detailed prescriptive uses. And that expands in all of our"},{"t":3757,"text":"current industrial zones. Am I an eye often. Uh, joke"},{"t":3761,"text":"about, you know, the, uh, the vulcanizing of tires, whatever"},{"t":3763,"text":"that is, you know, and so it's really about simplifying"},{"t":3766,"text":"those uses, to provide more flexibility to respond to a"},{"t":3769,"text":"healthier local economy. Um, but in essence, the marine industrial"},{"t":3775,"text":"zone is applied to all of the industrial properties that"},{"t":3777,"text":"are adjacent to the harbour that rely on that deep"},{"t":3780,"text":"water axis. And it recognises essentially their industrial functionality that"},{"t":3784,"text":"they have today. And also certainly for the future. And"},{"t":3787,"text":"one of the key things between it and say the"},{"t":3789,"text":"heavy industrial zone is that it permits docs, warps, and"},{"t":3792,"text":"peers as a key thing. Um, Mr. Engles also noted"},{"t":3796,"text":"that for the Ogden Point property, there will be a"},{"t":3798,"text":"specialized use definition of port, which is essentially just recognising"},{"t":3802,"text":"what has been happening there for decades, right? In terms"},{"t":3804,"text":"of the movement of goods, people, equipment, um, and so"},{"t":3808,"text":"it's not conveying additional uses or opportunities that would be"},{"t":3813,"text":"different than what you would see there today. Okay, thank"},{"t":3817,"text":"you. Um, the new term through the mayor, the new"},{"t":3821,"text":"definition of marine industrial includes a bunch of, uh, terminology,"},{"t":3825,"text":"storage and finished of semi - finished materials or components."},{"t":3828,"text":"That seems to be happening at Ogden Point already. The"},{"t":3831,"text":"production or sale of fishing equipment supplies, that seems to"},{"t":3834,"text":"be happening boat maintenance and construction and dry land boat"},{"t":3836,"text":"storage. That seems to be happening. Ship breaking, ship marine"},{"t":3840,"text":"and marine vessel recycling. That does seem to be happening"},{"t":3843,"text":"just north of the, uh, at the point in hope"},{"t":3845,"text":"shipyards, I believe. But is that currently allowed in augment"},{"t":3849,"text":"points? The ship breaking and recycling. Or is that, would"},{"t":3855,"text":"that be a new use do we know? String group?"},{"t":3858,"text":"Uh, through the mayor said, no, they, they don't currently"},{"t":3860,"text":"do ship breaking, uh, and it's our understanding that they"},{"t":3863,"text":"don't plan to either. Uh, this is a general use"},{"t":3866,"text":"definition. Um, and so it is primarily for the point"},{"t":3871,"text":"hope, uh, lands, because that's where the ship breaking does"},{"t":3874,"text":"occur. But as it's, it's a more broader use. It"},{"t":3878,"text":"would apply to more properties, but really it's the point"},{"t":3881,"text":"hope that would be taking advantage of that. Okay. So"},{"t":3884,"text":"thank you. So Ogden Point is being captured in that"},{"t":3887,"text":"just because they're, we're kind of amalgamating the zone. So"},{"t":3890,"text":"I guess to exclude that or exclude everything, we'd have"},{"t":3893,"text":"to create, I would have to have a specific Ogden"},{"t":3895,"text":"Point zone if we wanted to create a bunch of"},{"t":3896,"text":"niche uses, which is what we're trying to avoid, I"},{"t":3899,"text":"imagine? Uh, so through the mayor, uh, Ogden Point will"},{"t":3903,"text":"be git. So under the Zoning Bio 2018, we don't"},{"t":3905,"text":"create new site specific zones. We have site specific regulations"},{"t":3908,"text":"within these umbrella zones. So Ogden Point will be getting"},{"t":3911,"text":"a site specific regulation to allow the use of port."},{"t":3914,"text":"So if Council did want to exclude ship breaking from,"},{"t":3917,"text":"uh, octane point, we could add that restriction in under"},{"t":3921,"text":"their site - specific regulation. Okay. Thank you. My next"},{"t":3926,"text":"question was about the consultation. So it sounds like the"},{"t":3930,"text":"consultation with the businesses that are in the zones, but"},{"t":3934,"text":"not anyone outside. And obviously, uh, folks in James Bay"},{"t":3937,"text":"and the JBNA in particular, um, were caught off guard"},{"t":3940,"text":"by this. Our staff able to, can you just talk"},{"t":3944,"text":"about any communication that happened with JBNA and particularly or"},{"t":3948,"text":"if his staff is able to provide some information to"},{"t":3951,"text":"them? Cause it's pretty technical, the report. And like admittedly"},{"t":3954,"text":"a little bit overwhelming. And I'm learning some new things."},{"t":3957,"text":"So was there any consultation, if not why? And would"},{"t":3960,"text":"you be able to basically provide some information explaining what's"},{"t":3964,"text":"actually happening? Cause my takeaway is not much is changing,"},{"t":3968,"text":"but that's definitely not the perception out there. Challenge. Through"},{"t":3974,"text":"Mayor Alto. I guess the main thing, the starting point"},{"t":3978,"text":"was all the engagement and work that went into the"},{"t":3981,"text":"official community plan. And when we look at the map"},{"t":3984,"text":"in front of us on this slide and it identifies"},{"t":3986,"text":"the urban industrial preserve, that was some of the key"},{"t":3988,"text":"engagement that occurred with Citywide, right? And I think there"},{"t":3991,"text":"was over 4, 500 individuals engaged through the OCP process."},{"t":3996,"text":"And in the OCP is what identifies as urban industrial"},{"t":3999,"text":"reserves. So it's not a, right now we're not exploring"},{"t":4001,"text":"a land use question where the sites should be industrial"},{"t":4004,"text":"or not. It's about how can the existing zoning align"},{"t":4007,"text":"with a specific policies that are in the OCP as"},{"t":4010,"text":"they relate to the urban industrial reserve. There's specific policies"},{"t":4013,"text":"around marine industrial. He uses an activities as well as"},{"t":4017,"text":"for the working harbour. And so this process similar to"},{"t":4020,"text":"what happened in phase one for the residential zoning has"},{"t":4023,"text":"followed a similar process where we look at our existing"},{"t":4025,"text":"zoning. We looked at what was in the current approved"},{"t":4027,"text":"OCP and went through a process to do ongoing alignment."},{"t":4031,"text":"So there was not in depth broad community engagement on"},{"t":4035,"text":"this because it was really but of a transition to"},{"t":4037,"text":"bring the zones into alignment. Um, with that said, as"},{"t":4041,"text":"mentioned in the presentation, the draft zones were made available"},{"t":4045,"text":"on the City website earlier this year. Um, and as"},{"t":4048,"text":"well should council direct these, the bylaws, the amending Bylas"},{"t":4052,"text":"to be prepared. All of that information will also be"},{"t":4054,"text":"made available in accordance with the City's public notification policy."},{"t":4058,"text":"We may have available on the City website using City"},{"t":4062,"text":"social media. Um, and also posted at City Hall. And"},{"t":4066,"text":"so we would go follow the city's public notification policies"},{"t":4069,"text":"on that information going forward. Okay. I'll leave my questions"},{"t":4072,"text":"there for now. Thank you. Uh, Councillor Hammond. With questions."},{"t":4080,"text":"Yes, Mayor. Go ahead. Uh, two questions to start and"},{"t":4085,"text":"actually just at this point. Can we remove Ogden Point"},{"t":4089,"text":"from this motion. Uh, Through the Mayor. Yes. That's possible."},{"t":4095,"text":"Okay. Thanks. And, um, as an alternative or just another"},{"t":4099,"text":"question, can we ask for a public hearing just for"},{"t":4103,"text":"Ogden Point and allow the remaining parts to proceed. Uh,"},{"t":4108,"text":"through the mayor. Yes. That's also possible. I think in"},{"t":4111,"text":"that case staff would recommend removing it and saving it"},{"t":4115,"text":"for a later date, uh, future phase or potentially if"},{"t":4120,"text":"the GVHA completed their comprehensive plan, then it would be"},{"t":4124,"text":"rezoned at that time with a public hearing, uh, whichever"},{"t":4127,"text":"came first. Okay. Thanks, Mayor. That's all the question I"},{"t":4130,"text":"have now. You're good. Thank you, Councillor Thompson. Thanks Mayor."},{"t":4139,"text":"Ship breaking. So my, uh, understanding of ship breaking is"},{"t":4143,"text":"the images that I see of gigantic ships being torn"},{"t":4148,"text":"apart and all sorts of nasty stuff leaking out of"},{"t":4150,"text":"them. Is that what's anticipated for, sorry, it wasn't dog"},{"t":4156,"text":"den point. It's the other, uh, area. What is it,"},{"t":4159,"text":"what does it actually look like ship breaking. Those? Uh,"},{"t":4163,"text":"through Mayor alto. Point halt maritime with the, with the"},{"t":4166,"text":"graving docket at the ship yards, a lot of the"},{"t":4170,"text":"activities that we've seen since that site was developed over"},{"t":4174,"text":"a decade ago is the ongoing repair maintenance deconstruction of"},{"t":4178,"text":"a variety of different types of marine vessels and all"},{"t":4181,"text":"shapes and sizes. Um, our understanding is we've certainly benefited"},{"t":4185,"text":"from engagement in visiting the site and sort of better"},{"t":4187,"text":"understanding of what happens there. Um, the one thing that's"},{"t":4190,"text":"come to light for us is certainly a lot of"},{"t":4192,"text":"the work that's done there is regulated beyond the city,"},{"t":4195,"text":"but by other levels of government, whether it's the Ministry"},{"t":4197,"text":"of Environment, Department of Fisheries, um, transport Canada. And so"},{"t":4202,"text":"there is a lot of rigor that goes into environmental"},{"t":4205,"text":"impacts. For example, in terms of the activities that occur"},{"t":4207,"text":"there. But in terms of what that can happen, I"},{"t":4210,"text":"guess in the marine industry, it could be from decommissioning"},{"t":4212,"text":"a ship, which could be removing its navigational equipment, removing"},{"t":4215,"text":"its, you know, registration. Um, as well as ship breaking,"},{"t":4219,"text":"which is, yeah, deconstruction recycling of vessels as well in"},{"t":4222,"text":"terms of whether it's, say, you know, ripping them apart"},{"t":4224,"text":"basically deconstructing them, often recycling certain types of equipment or"},{"t":4228,"text":"even just ongoing maintenance, whether it's scrubbing barnacles off a"},{"t":4231,"text":"hull, repainting them, et cetera. So it is a broad"},{"t":4233,"text":"range of uses that occur there today. And certainly a"},{"t":4236,"text":"lot of them, uh, may have been visible this past,"},{"t":4239,"text":"I think on Father's Day during the current open house."},{"t":4241,"text":"Um, and so that's really what is in that definition"},{"t":4244,"text":"for marine industrial. It does continue to permit all of"},{"t":4247,"text":"those current activities that we see there today. Okay. So"},{"t":4249,"text":"we've been, it's happening already. And it's been going on"},{"t":4253,"text":"for 10 years, did you say my apologies? I don't"},{"t":4256,"text":"know the exact date, how long maritime has been around."},{"t":4259,"text":"But, uh, since our inception, all of the other activities"},{"t":4261,"text":"that have been occurring there. Okay. Um, and then with"},{"t":4265,"text":"respect to Ogden Point, just moving over there, um, I"},{"t":4269,"text":"think I heard just now, or just a few minutes"},{"t":4272,"text":"ago that it's not currently the intended use of that"},{"t":4276,"text":"area. Is that correct? There's no intention to do ship"},{"t":4280,"text":"breaking there? Uh, do the correct. There's no intention. Okay."},{"t":4283,"text":"But if somebody changed their mind and came up with"},{"t":4287,"text":"a business idea to do it there, that the, uh,"},{"t":4291,"text":"the site - specific regulation would allow it currently, the"},{"t":4294,"text":"way it's written through the mayor, the broad zone would"},{"t":4298,"text":"allow it. Uh, if Council chose to restrict in a"},{"t":4301,"text":"site - specific regulation, then it would not be loud."},{"t":4304,"text":"Okay. Thanks for that clarification. Um, so what would be"},{"t":4309,"text":"the implications of us passing such as site - specific"},{"t":4314,"text":"regulation? If you can answer that now, or would that"},{"t":4317,"text":"be better answered in a separate, you know, motion arising"},{"t":4321,"text":"with you having time to prepare for that. Stranger group?"},{"t":4326,"text":"Uh, through the mayor, if they were to propose it,"},{"t":4329,"text":"uh, then they would just need a rezoning. So there"},{"t":4331,"text":"would really be no implication other than if they were"},{"t":4334,"text":"to propose that they'd need to come in because they"},{"t":4335,"text":"don't, uh, currently undertake that activity. Sorry, I didn't, uh,"},{"t":4340,"text":"I didn't phrase my question very well. I'm not asking"},{"t":4342,"text":"about, you know, the owners changing their intentions, but more"},{"t":4347,"text":"about, uh, if counsel were to, um, uh, consider, uh,"},{"t":4353,"text":"a site specific regulation, excluding shipwrecking from Ogden Point, uh,"},{"t":4358,"text":"would you be prepared today right now to speak to"},{"t":4361,"text":"the implications of that? Or would that be better coming"},{"t":4363,"text":"at a later time with more warning that you can"},{"t":4366,"text":"do some more research on it. Tell us through Meralto."},{"t":4370,"text":"Um, that is something we could certainly work into this"},{"t":4372,"text":"site specific regulations today. And on that though, I did"},{"t":4375,"text":"want to again, reiterate the fact that greater Victoria Harbour"},{"t":4378,"text":"authority is currently in their process of doing their integrated"},{"t":4381,"text":"master planning process for all of their sites. So we"},{"t":4383,"text":"do expect to see comprehensive plan with far more detail"},{"t":4387,"text":"in terms of what their future aspirations are for Agent"},{"t":4389,"text":"Point and the other properties. We also expected that that"},{"t":4391,"text":"plan when it comes forward to Council would also include"},{"t":4393,"text":"some, uh, rezoning application as well with more site specific"},{"t":4397,"text":"applications. So that will also provide additional guidance and opportunities"},{"t":4401,"text":"to, uh, drill down into exactly in terms of what"},{"t":4403,"text":"should be permitted on each of those sites going forward"},{"t":4406,"text":"in the future. But for today, that could certainly be"},{"t":4408,"text":"included in there. I don't think it would impact the"},{"t":4410,"text":"current functionality of Ogden Point as we see it today."},{"t":4414,"text":"And through the mayor, just expanding, it would not have"},{"t":4416,"text":"an impact on staff timelines. Okay. Okay. Thanks. So, uh,"},{"t":4421,"text":"if we were to have a motion just to sum"},{"t":4423,"text":"up, if we were to have a motion arising today"},{"t":4425,"text":"for a site - specific regulation, excluding ship - breaking"},{"t":4428,"text":"at Ogden Point, it would be okay from a staff"},{"t":4432,"text":"workflow point of view. And it presumably wouldn't affect the"},{"t":4435,"text":"existing ownership in that area, because the intention to do"},{"t":4439,"text":"shipwrecking, is that correct? That's correct. Okay. Thank you. Uh,"},{"t":4442,"text":"mayor, I may want to do that later. But I'll"},{"t":4445,"text":"don't have any more questions at the moment. Um, I"},{"t":4447,"text":"do have a question on that matter, but I'll hold"},{"t":4449,"text":"that until everyone else has asked Councillor Gardner. You're next."},{"t":4453,"text":"Thank you. I have several questions. Uh, I'm glad we're"},{"t":4456,"text":"on this slide. Please clarify is the City actually. Suggesting"},{"t":4462,"text":"any restrictions or reductions re off street parking for the"},{"t":4466,"text":"industrial sites. Strangro? I read different things as I read"},{"t":4470,"text":"the package. Tell us. Do you may or alto the"},{"t":4475,"text":"current parking modernization that was presented to Council this past"},{"t":4480,"text":"September? And I'll certainly look at Mr. Handy to chime"},{"t":4483,"text":"in with additional detail. Does include a regime for offstreet"},{"t":4487,"text":"parking, one that looks at a zero parking requirement for"},{"t":4491,"text":"generally for the downtown core area, as well as a"},{"t":4494,"text":"30 percent reduction for properties that within a 200 metre"},{"t":4498,"text":"buffer of a frequent transit network. So with that would"},{"t":4501,"text":"mean for the industrial properties that we see here on"},{"t":4503,"text":"this map, there are, you can see the industrial properties"},{"t":4506,"text":"generally on the adjacent to Bay Street. On the west"},{"t":4510,"text":"side of the, on the east side of the bridge,"},{"t":4512,"text":"they would receive a zero parking requirement. While properties such"},{"t":4515,"text":"as the point hope maritime, uh, would be subject to"},{"t":4519,"text":"a 30 percent reduction for their point would also be"},{"t":4524,"text":"subject with 30 percent reduction for parking That's currently what's"},{"t":4527,"text":"proposed. Okay. I would like to actually eliminate that. In"},{"t":4532,"text":"other words, I don't think that we should be restricting"},{"t":4534,"text":"the industrials because I don't know and nor do, I"},{"t":4537,"text":"don't think anyone here know what their needs will be"},{"t":4539,"text":"later. I'm very conscious of the fact when I go"},{"t":4542,"text":"by, uh, Port Hope that I see all of those"},{"t":4546,"text":"pickup trucks there in their parking spots because their tradesmen"},{"t":4550,"text":"use trucks. And I'm very worried that we may, uh,"},{"t":4553,"text":"affect their operations in a negative way. So I know"},{"t":4555,"text":"that's a comment, not a question mayor, but when that"},{"t":4558,"text":"comes to later, I don't even know where to put"},{"t":4559,"text":"it. But perhaps we'll discuss it later. Okay. Another question."},{"t":4563,"text":"Uh, several emails received in the past two days referred"},{"t":4566,"text":"to the August 29th, 2025 public service or public notice"},{"t":4569,"text":"of hearing, which identifies Ogden Point as an area not"},{"t":4573,"text":"affected by the amendment to zoning bylaw 2018 in the"},{"t":4576,"text":"2025 OCP. Is that true? Sorry through the mayor. Are"},{"t":4584,"text":"you asking if it's in zoning regulation bylaw currently or"},{"t":4587,"text":"donating Byla 2018. Nothing to do with parking. I'm just"},{"t":4590,"text":"talking. No. Do you want to be kidding me? Go"},{"t":4593,"text":"ahead. No. I don't want to cheat up my time."},{"t":4596,"text":"No, that's where I won't cultivate this to repeat your"},{"t":4598,"text":"question several emails received in the past few days refer"},{"t":4602,"text":"to an August 29th, 2025 public notice of hearing. This"},{"t":4607,"text":"would have been about the OCPI assume. I don't have"},{"t":4609,"text":"it in front of me. And it identifies ogden point"},{"t":4612,"text":"as an area not affected by the amendment to zoning"},{"t":4615,"text":"bylaw 2018 in the 2025 OCP is that true. And"},{"t":4620,"text":"that has been interpreted as being the phase two, which"},{"t":4624,"text":"is before us today. Uh, through the mayor, the August,"},{"t":4627,"text":"2025, uh, noticed that when it would have been about"},{"t":4629,"text":"phase one, which was the residential properties. Uh, phase one"},{"t":4634,"text":"was approved, uh, I believe it was October of 2025."},{"t":4638,"text":"So August would have been for those public hearings. What"},{"t":4640,"text":"was the reference in that to Ogden Point. To that"},{"t":4644,"text":"public notice? That's what we've been told by several people"},{"t":4648,"text":"that there was reference to Ogden Point. Can someone tell"},{"t":4651,"text":"me what was in that hearing? Uh, through mayor, I'll"},{"t":4654,"text":"do it. I believe part of it was, I think"},{"t":4655,"text":"some questions at the time we were receiving whether Ogden"},{"t":4657,"text":"Point was part of the phase one rezoning process. And"},{"t":4660,"text":"it was simply to clarify that logdon point was not"},{"t":4662,"text":"part of phase one zoning modernization. And to communicate that"},{"t":4667,"text":"any rezoning of Ogden Point in the industrial properties would"},{"t":4670,"text":"be done to a subsequent phase as we are here"},{"t":4673,"text":"today. Can someone read that to me what was in"},{"t":4675,"text":"that notice? Cause people have said referred to it with"},{"t":4679,"text":"the phase two also. I want to know what the"},{"t":4681,"text":"public was told about phase two in Ogden. Do you"},{"t":4684,"text":"have access to that immediately or do you need some"},{"t":4686,"text":"time to locate that. Through the thing we would have"},{"t":4690,"text":"to have, um, located, uh, that likely would have also"},{"t":4693,"text":"been the public notice for the OCP as well though."},{"t":4696,"text":"So it's possible that the two are getting, not necessarily"},{"t":4699,"text":"confused, but combined. Then perhaps we can give you some"},{"t":4703,"text":"time to locate that so that we can, I think"},{"t":4705,"text":"the intent is to have it right into the record."},{"t":4710,"text":"That's great new. Okay. Uh. The GVHA Commission debunt report"},{"t":4718,"text":"in 2017 which showed the roadways in James Bay to"},{"t":4720,"text":"be at or beyond capacity with ships in port. What"},{"t":4723,"text":"impact were the more industrial zone have on street use?"},{"t":4727,"text":"String Roof. Through the mayor. I don't think there would"},{"t":4733,"text":"be an impact necessarily because this is just moving industrial"},{"t":4736,"text":"zones from the old Byla to the new Byla. Through"},{"t":4745,"text":"Mayor Alto specific to the parking. Currently the, and I'll"},{"t":4749,"text":"certainly look at Mr. Handy to provide additional clarification. Um,"},{"t":4753,"text":"there was a report that was presented to Council in"},{"t":4755,"text":"September. Uh, that provided an overview of the proposed parking"},{"t":4759,"text":"regulations, the structure that was provided for parking. And so"},{"t":4762,"text":"that's what would be carried forward. But through a separate"},{"t":4765,"text":"process through the parking modernization, but perhaps Mr. Handy can."},{"t":4769,"text":"Do through you, uh, Jim Handy acting assistant director development"},{"t":4774,"text":"services. I think the question related to, um, activity on"},{"t":4779,"text":"the street from industrial traffic. And I'll just refer back"},{"t":4783,"text":"to acting manager and groups answer that the site is"},{"t":4788,"text":"currently zoned for industrial use. And this is an exercise"},{"t":4793,"text":"in modernizing the language and moving from the old bylor"},{"t":4797,"text":"to the new bylaws. So it was industry and activities"},{"t":4799,"text":"that are permitted. Today would still be a permitted in"},{"t":4802,"text":"the future. So when I anticipating any changes to, um,"},{"t":4806,"text":"uh, traffic clauses a result of that, unless of course,"},{"t":4809,"text":"um, the applicant came forward with an application to redevelop"},{"t":4814,"text":"the site, which there would be entitled to today. Under"},{"t":4818,"text":"the CUR, under what you're proposing today, there was a"},{"t":4820,"text":"greatly expanded. And you've already answered the question use for"},{"t":4824,"text":"industrial uses. So if that comes forward, what would be"},{"t":4827,"text":"the impact? That was my question. Because you answered a"},{"t":4831,"text":"few minutes ago to Councillor Thompson that yes, if this"},{"t":4835,"text":"goes to, they could do it without coming through all"},{"t":4837,"text":"of the other rezonings. Mr. Angro. So through the mayor,"},{"t":4847,"text":"uh, the, the, the, the uses would be allowed. In"},{"t":4849,"text":"fact, many in many cases, the uses are already allowed."},{"t":4852,"text":"We're just consolidating them into, uh, smaller use categories. Uh,"},{"t":4856,"text":"the properties would still need development permits though. So they"},{"t":4859,"text":"would still come before council for a development permit. Or"},{"t":4863,"text":"potentially be delegated to staff. I'm confused. So there wouldn't"},{"t":4867,"text":"be building anything if you're deconstructing something. So why would"},{"t":4871,"text":"they need a development permit. They wouldn't be developing anything."},{"t":4876,"text":"Mr. I see through the mayor just kind of going"},{"t":4878,"text":"back to the original question. There's no, um, intensity of"},{"t":4882,"text":"industrial use being proposed through these rezoning changes. Um, if"},{"t":4887,"text":"an applicant sought to seek advantage of the zoning allowances"},{"t":4893,"text":"on site, then they'd be entitled to. But that would,"},{"t":4896,"text":"those entitlements are there today. At the moment, the GVH"},{"t":4901,"text":"here could build that site as an industrial park and"},{"t":4904,"text":"intensify their operations. And that would, um, still be the"},{"t":4908,"text":"case going forward if these zoning amendments were adopted. So"},{"t":4914,"text":"there's been no analysis on what this new type of"},{"t":4917,"text":"zoning would the impacts would be. Is that what I'm"},{"t":4919,"text":"hearing? Mr. Handy. Mr. Angry, no, just because this again"},{"t":4927,"text":"is moving from one zoning bylaw to the other zoning"},{"t":4931,"text":"violet as similar zones. That's different questions I have amendments"},{"t":4937,"text":"later. Sure thing. Just before I go to the next"},{"t":4940,"text":"speaker, um, I believe that stuff at Ledge Services have"},{"t":4944,"text":"that, the text of that notice in hand. Is that"},{"t":4947,"text":"the case? If that is the case, is it something"},{"t":4950,"text":"that can be displayed or is it something that you"},{"t":4952,"text":"need to read. Can bring it up. That would be"},{"t":4956,"text":"helpful. There we go. Okay, let's just leave that on"},{"t":4964,"text":"the screen for a minute. I believe that is the"},{"t":4969,"text":"one that was referenced in an earlier question."},{"t":4980,"text":"Through the mayor, I guess to Steph, if you want"},{"t":4983,"text":"to scroll down to the map, I think this might"},{"t":4986,"text":"clarify the next map. The areas affected by amendments. This"},{"t":4990,"text":"one here. Um, so through the mayor, the marine industrial"},{"t":4994,"text":"one zone identified here. I identify as the properties within"},{"t":4997,"text":"the IAI district. Um, as you can see in this"},{"t":5000,"text":"map, Ogden Point is grayed out, which is under the"},{"t":5003,"text":"category of areas not affected by the amendment. And so"},{"t":5007,"text":"that was for the August, uh, notice for the September"},{"t":5010,"text":"hearings that occurred. So during phase one, this augment point"},{"t":5014,"text":"was identified as not being affected. Okay. Great. Thank you"},{"t":5019,"text":"for that clarification. Mayor, although maybe I'll just add a"},{"t":5021,"text":"little bit further. So what we see on here are"},{"t":5023,"text":"all the new zones that we're introduced as part of"},{"t":5025,"text":"phase one, but certainly within the downtown core, it wasn't"},{"t":5028,"text":"included in there. Is that some future policy work that"},{"t":5031,"text":"we'll be undertaking and also excluded the industrial lands? Right."},{"t":5034,"text":"And just to clarify, did you, one of you earlier"},{"t":5037,"text":"referenced a future regulation that will be coming forward, which"},{"t":5043,"text":"would have the opportunity to clarify some of this and"},{"t":5046,"text":"provide the opportunity for amendments at that time. What is"},{"t":5051,"text":"a regulation to which you referred earlier in your remarks."},{"t":5056,"text":"Oh, through Mayoral to pardon, I was referring to the,"},{"t":5059,"text":"um, should Council Direct staff to prepare the amending bylaws"},{"t":5063,"text":"to amend Zoning Byla 2018 to integrate the proposed zones."},{"t":5067,"text":"That would be coming back to Council as well. Uh,"},{"t":5070,"text":"and then as well, that would also be noticed posted"},{"t":5072,"text":"publicly for additional public feedback. And would that be the"},{"t":5076,"text":"appropriate time to speak to amendments around Ogden Point. Through"},{"t":5084,"text":"the mayor, I think now would be the appropriate time"},{"t":5086,"text":"because then we could remove it before we add it."},{"t":5089,"text":"Very good. All right. All right. Council Coleman with questions."},{"t":5093,"text":"Thank you. Do you have the City of Victoria Noe's"},{"t":5097,"text":"district map. Available. And could you overlay that on this"},{"t":5103,"text":"zone. Is that something that we have available. Noise district"},{"t":5109,"text":"map. Mr. Kingsley. Oh, dead microphone."},{"t":5120,"text":"Apologies mayor some trouble with the microphones. That's something that"},{"t":5123,"text":"we can try pull up if we take a few"},{"t":5125,"text":"moments. We'll try and pull that out. It looks very"},{"t":5128,"text":"similar to this. And the question that falls from it,"},{"t":5132,"text":"if we were to look at it, it gives us"},{"t":5134,"text":"three zones of where noises felt. Would this bylaws change"},{"t":5138,"text":"anything. In the noise district map. So through the mayor"},{"t":5144,"text":"that these bylaws don't change anything and the noise district"},{"t":5146,"text":"map, I believe there is some, uh, work ongoing in"},{"t":5149,"text":"updating our noise bylaw. Um, that is not part of"},{"t":5152,"text":"this work, but it is ongoing. But part of the"},{"t":5156,"text":"concern that we've heard is the increase of impact in"},{"t":5161,"text":"adjacent neighbourhoods. So that's the basis of asking the question."},{"t":5166,"text":"And King Mayor, I think we're working on getting up."},{"t":5168,"text":"But I do have it on my personal laptop and"},{"t":5171,"text":"you're correct that essentially, uh, the areas of, uh, louder"},{"t":5174,"text":"noises pretty much match this map. Thank you. Anyone else"},{"t":5181,"text":"with any questions. I'm not seeing any other questions. Someone"},{"t":5188,"text":"like to move the motion. Which one? Can we go"},{"t":5194,"text":"back that map again that was on that notice? Which,"},{"t":5197,"text":"which meant, Oh, the notice map from, um, last August."},{"t":5202,"text":"We have that. Yeah. There you go."},{"t":5217,"text":"I think the issue here, Mary, is that it says"},{"t":5219,"text":"areas affected by amendment to Zoning bylaw 2018. And therefore,"},{"t":5224,"text":"that was exempt from it. And I think that's where"},{"t":5226,"text":"the understandings coming. That there has been no notice of"},{"t":5231,"text":"change of that to the community. And yet it does"},{"t":5233,"text":"say lower down areas not affected by the amendment, which"},{"t":5237,"text":"is how that district at Ogden Point is coloured. Exactly."},{"t":5241,"text":"Which is why they're interpreting to me, in effect, now"},{"t":5243,"text":"i. e. It has not been brought forward to the"},{"t":5246,"text":"Community at all. This change of today until they saw"},{"t":5250,"text":"something on Friday night. Right. We can make that point"},{"t":5253,"text":"when you come to comments, Mr. Johnston. Thank you through"},{"t":5260,"text":"the mayor. I just wanted to, um, I guess that,"},{"t":5263,"text":"uh, so this was the notification that went out in"},{"t":5266,"text":"advance of Council considering the bylaws for phase one of"},{"t":5269,"text":"zoning modernization. Uh, which clearly identified the industrial lens is"},{"t":5274,"text":"not being affected by that proposed amendment. Um, if Council"},{"t":5278,"text":"were to move forward with the recommendation to move these"},{"t":5282,"text":"new industrial zones forward, there would be a notification that"},{"t":5288,"text":"would be, um, public notification as part of that, which"},{"t":5292,"text":"could also, would include a map showing the industrial lenses"},{"t":5296,"text":"being affected by this proposed zoning amendment. So that would"},{"t":5300,"text":"be following the same process of notification that was done"},{"t":5303,"text":"with phase one and be consistent. With that approach. Councillor"},{"t":5308,"text":"Coleman asked for the noise district map. And I understand"},{"t":5311,"text":"we do have that available. If we could pull that"},{"t":5313,"text":"up. Just for information that you may have a question"},{"t":5316,"text":"on it. It's a noise district map. Thank you. Yeah."},{"t":5324,"text":"And it's just to recognise that this almost perfectly matches"},{"t":5329,"text":"the areas we're talking about in industrial, both all three"},{"t":5334,"text":"zones. Um, and the impact that I'm concerned about is"},{"t":5338,"text":"does it change anything in the receiving, the adjacent receiving"},{"t":5341,"text":"areas? And the answer has been no. Is that a"},{"t":5345,"text":"correct assessment staff. Uh, through the mayor, yes. Yeah. We're"},{"t":5349,"text":"not adding any new industrial zone or properties as part"},{"t":5352,"text":"of this. These are existing industrial properties. Thank you for"},{"t":5355,"text":"that, Matt. I wonder if it's possible when, um, materials"},{"t":5360,"text":"are completely added to the agenda after this of both"},{"t":5363,"text":"of those maps could be attached. So they're available in"},{"t":5366,"text":"public. We can certainly do that, Mayor. Would that be"},{"t":5367,"text":"great? Thank you. Roy, and once again, the questions, Councillor"},{"t":5371,"text":"Dill, are you wanting to move this? Okay. Is anyone"},{"t":5373,"text":"wanting to second it. S their, Jim is seconding. We'll"},{"t":5379,"text":"go to the mover in Sender and then we will"},{"t":5381,"text":"go open the table to amendments. Councillor Dell. Uh, thank"},{"t":5386,"text":"you. Yes. I would like to move the staff recommended"},{"t":5388,"text":"motion, but I also have an amendment to make Councillor"},{"t":5392,"text":"Kim. Are you willing to second knowing that there may"},{"t":5394,"text":"be amendments coming? You're still, you're just seconding the main"},{"t":5396,"text":"motion. Yes. Okay. Okay. Councillor Dell. Sure. Um, I sent"},{"t":5403,"text":"an amendment to alleged services if they don't mind, although"},{"t":5405,"text":"it's a bit of an awkward spot to put my"},{"t":5407,"text":"amendment in. Can I speak to what the amendment does"},{"t":5411,"text":"or should I wait till they pull it up? I"},{"t":5414,"text":"wait till they pull it up so that everyone can"},{"t":5415,"text":"see what we're discussing. I think would be a new"},{"t":5417,"text":"number, like at the very end, new number. Does it"},{"t":5423,"text":"relate to parking or to be a new number 11"},{"t":5426,"text":"essentially? Okay. So it relates to everything, including parking. Yeah."},{"t":5429,"text":"Okay. So a new number 11 then. Yep. So direct"},{"t":5435,"text":"staff to delay rezoning augment point and surrounding area until"},{"t":5439,"text":"the greater Victoria Harbour authorities. Ogden Point master plan is"},{"t":5443,"text":"complete. All right. That seems pretty self explanatory. Is there"},{"t":5448,"text":"a seconder for that amendment. Amendment you're seconding the amendment,"},{"t":5452,"text":"great. Councillor Dell on the amendment? Uh, sure. So I"},{"t":5456,"text":"just, Oh, I'm speaking just to the amendment right now."},{"t":5459,"text":"Um, yeah, well, I mean, overall, this is really, really"},{"t":5462,"text":"great work and very technical work in one of the"},{"t":5464,"text":"more technical reports that we've had. I think transitioning zoning,"},{"t":5468,"text":"um, is fairly standardized process. Although it does create a"},{"t":5471,"text":"lot of concern in the community, um, given Ogden points,"},{"t":5475,"text":"uh, kind of location in a residential neighbourhood. It's different"},{"t":5478,"text":"than the other one's point ship point hope and some"},{"t":5480,"text":"of the others. Ogden Point kind of brings in a"},{"t":5483,"text":"whole bunch of issues around traffic and housing and noise"},{"t":5486,"text":"in James Bay. And I definitely heard that this week"},{"t":5488,"text":"from, from residents, um, given that I think there's a"},{"t":5492,"text":"master plan coming from my understanding, uh, of the GVHA"},{"t":5496,"text":"and staff have acknowledged that there's that this doesn't need"},{"t":5498,"text":"to be done right now or could be done afterwards."},{"t":5501,"text":"Um, I just wanted to propose delaying this particular work."},{"t":5504,"text":"So it's not meant to be relayed to point hope"},{"t":5507,"text":"in some of the other areas, uh, Rock Bay and"},{"t":5509,"text":"whatnot. I know this acknowledge it creates challenges and it's"},{"t":5514,"text":"going to make things more complicated. But I think it"},{"t":5516,"text":"will just help you know, 12, 000 residents in James"},{"t":5520,"text":"Bay just kind of understand what's happening and make sure"},{"t":5522,"text":"that, uh, that, that agging point remains an important community"},{"t":5526,"text":"harbour, obviously, and industrial site, but that just the bit"},{"t":5530,"text":"more awareness because right now there's a lot of fear."},{"t":5533,"text":"And that's what this is intended to do. So I'll"},{"t":5535,"text":"leave you there. Thank you. Before I go to the"},{"t":5537,"text":"secondary, I believe, yes, Mr. Handy, do you have a"},{"t":5539,"text":"comment. On the amendment? Thank you, Matt. Yes, I think"},{"t":5544,"text":"just something to consider when looking at this, um, proposed"},{"t":5547,"text":"amendment would be the words and surrounding area. Um, I"},{"t":5551,"text":"think stuff would need some directioners as to what the"},{"t":5554,"text":"extent in the Cyrus surrounding area would be. Very good"},{"t":5557,"text":"Councillor Dell. Did you have? Yes. That could be deleted."},{"t":5560,"text":"Um, the only reason I put that in there is"},{"t":5562,"text":"I didn't actually know if Ogden Point is captures the"},{"t":5565,"text":"entire area or octain point was considered one particular, um,"},{"t":5569,"text":"plot of land. So it was meant to capture that"},{"t":5571,"text":"whole Ogdid Point area. But if that can, if that"},{"t":5574,"text":"can be captured just by saying Ogden Point and staff"},{"t":5576,"text":"know what that is, then I think the surrounding area"},{"t":5580,"text":"could be removed. Mr. Angry was at, um, I just"},{"t":5582,"text":"want to see clarification of what you understand that language"},{"t":5585,"text":"to mean. So through the mayor, I think if it"},{"t":5588,"text":"was just Agnopoint without surrounding area, it would be very"},{"t":5590,"text":"clear. It's just the GVHA cogniting that if surrounding areas"},{"t":5595,"text":"included, it likely would include the Coast Guard lands, which"},{"t":5598,"text":"are just north of Ogden Point. And then also knowing"},{"t":5601,"text":"that we have already rezoned fishermen's dwarf, which is north"},{"t":5604,"text":"of that to the MI1. Um, so just some clarification"},{"t":5607,"text":"around whether or not the Coast Guard lands would be"},{"t":5609,"text":"included. Councillor Dell, do you want to remove that language?"},{"t":5614,"text":"Sure. I can remember the seconder. That's great. Let's remove"},{"t":5619,"text":"it. Thank you. Okay with removing that case. The way"},{"t":5623,"text":"to put it is a GVHA properties on the outer"},{"t":5625,"text":"harbour. Because fishermen's warps on the middle harbour and that"},{"t":5629,"text":"differentiates it with a second place. That is not clear."},{"t":5632,"text":"And the motion that's been put forward as an amendment."},{"t":5635,"text":"Okay. And so if you want to make a further"},{"t":5637,"text":"amendment to the amendment, you can. But I'm going to"},{"t":5640,"text":"suggest that I understand this is the original intent of"},{"t":5643,"text":"Councillor Dell. And you did second it. So if you"},{"t":5647,"text":"wish to, um, amend it, you can. But if not,"},{"t":5650,"text":"then we'll leave it the way it is. You're good"},{"t":5653,"text":"the way it is. I think apologies just before you"},{"t":5655,"text":"go on, I had neglected to note the time. And"},{"t":5658,"text":"in fact, it's very rare for us to sit for"},{"t":5660,"text":"more than an hour and a half. And so, although"},{"t":5662,"text":"it may be, I'm actually going to call a time"},{"t":5666,"text":"break here. And we're going to come back in 10"},{"t":5668,"text":"minutes. So it'll be 1045. And we'll continue on with"},{"t":5671,"text":"the amendment and Councillor Gardner will speak next as the"},{"t":5673,"text":"second year. My apologies for overlooking that."},{"t":6311,"text":"Everyone and let us resume our conversation on item G2."},{"t":6315,"text":"This is the Zoning bylaw modernization phase two item. We"},{"t":6319,"text":"are speaking to an amendment and that is what is"},{"t":6321,"text":"on the screen and bold print as item 11, moved"},{"t":6326,"text":"by Councillor Dell, seconded by Councillor Gardner, and before we"},{"t":6329,"text":"broke we were up to Councillor Gardner speaking to the"},{"t":6331,"text":"amendment. I think you'd like to say to the amendment,"},{"t":6336,"text":"Councillor Gardner. Thank you, I think this is most appropriate,"},{"t":6346,"text":"and I have to say that the Algon Point Master"},{"t":6348,"text":"Plan, which was completed in 2016, but did not come"},{"t":6351,"text":"to Council actually received more or less and okay from"},{"t":6356,"text":"the Community. And it was not the community that held"},{"t":6359,"text":"it up over the last 10 years. And when I"},{"t":6363,"text":"was viewing last night, the first document I found was"},{"t":6367,"text":"from the GVHA Vichy for all the points from 2004."},{"t":6374,"text":"So this has been going on for quite some time,"},{"t":6376,"text":"and this is most appropriate. Thank you. Thank you very"},{"t":6378,"text":"much. Anyone else on the Amendment. Just speaking just to"},{"t":6384,"text":"the amendment. No other... Oh, Councilman, go ahead on the"},{"t":6388,"text":"amendment. Thanks, Mayor. This is a very appropriate amendment. You"},{"t":6393,"text":"know, I can completely understand when people get confused about"},{"t":6396,"text":"whether something is in the original OCP or not, where"},{"t":6401,"text":"they might come to the conclusion that, oh, we don't"},{"t":6403,"text":"have to worry about that. So I can, you know,"},{"t":6405,"text":"I get confused on the stuff that we're given and"},{"t":6407,"text":"we're given detailed information. And it wasn't too long ago"},{"t":6411,"text":"when there was a change that included Quebec Street that"},{"t":6415,"text":"a lot of people didn't notice. You know, most, as"},{"t":6418,"text":"a matter of fact, probably all council didn't even notice."},{"t":6420,"text":"And as a result of that, has led to some"},{"t":6421,"text":"changes. So I can completely understand why people are concerned"},{"t":6425,"text":"about this. And can I ask staff, when is it,"},{"t":6430,"text":"I know it was in there, but just for it's"},{"t":6432,"text":"on the record, when is it that the expectation for"},{"t":6436,"text":"the harbour authority to complete the master plan. Stuff. Does"},{"t":6441,"text":"anyone know that? Is that something that's within our understanding."},{"t":6445,"text":"Oh, well, so not staff exactly, but we do have"},{"t":6448,"text":"a member who's appointed to the board of the GVHA."},{"t":6451,"text":"So unusually I will go to Consulter Kim for that"},{"t":6454,"text":"answer. Go ahead, Councillor Kim. Thanks to the chair. The"},{"t":6457,"text":"plan is to have the bulk of it done for"},{"t":6459,"text":"the end of this calendar year. And then maybe a"},{"t":6463,"text":"phase two come into place, um, in the season thereafter,"},{"t":6466,"text":"depending on some internal logistics. Okay, did you hear that"},{"t":6470,"text":"Councillor Hammond. Yes, heard it very well. Thank you very"},{"t":6473,"text":"much. And as a result of that, this gives people"},{"t":6476,"text":"the second sober thought. Um, when people in and around"},{"t":6482,"text":"Ogden Point, people in James Bay around Ogden Point, their"},{"t":6485,"text":"gun shy because they're told how wonderful the cruise ships"},{"t":6489,"text":"are. And, you know, just to confess, Jack and I"},{"t":6492,"text":"have been on a lot of cruise ships. And how"},{"t":6495,"text":"wonderful they are, but we recognise as well the impact"},{"t":6497,"text":"that it has there. And therefore, if we're saying, trust"},{"t":6500,"text":"us, when some other possible industry can be going in"},{"t":6503,"text":"there, which is also potentially loud and whatnot, um, I"},{"t":6507,"text":"think that people should have the opportunity to have more"},{"t":6510,"text":"of a say in that. So, uh, good amendment. Thanks"},{"t":6512,"text":"very much. Thank you very much. Anyone else on the"},{"t":6515,"text":"amendment. Councillor Kim. Thanks to the chair. I am also"},{"t":6520,"text":"in favor of this amendment. Honestly, just with the GVHA"},{"t":6524,"text":"background in my head, um, there's a new CEO as"},{"t":6527,"text":"well as the, um, integrated planning process happening. And so,"},{"t":6532,"text":"um, while I am personally in favor of this motion"},{"t":6534,"text":"going ahead without this amendment, I do actually think it's"},{"t":6537,"text":"prudent for the GVHA to be able to operate with"},{"t":6540,"text":"the preexisting framework and knowledge and information rather than try"},{"t":6544,"text":"to wrangle with, even if it's just to categorization difference,"},{"t":6548,"text":"um, wrangle with that new information, uh, so for their"},{"t":6551,"text":"integrated planning process. Thank you very much for that. I"},{"t":6556,"text":"have a question for staff. Does this amendment should it"},{"t":6560,"text":"be adopted effect in any way the rest of the"},{"t":6563,"text":"work that you're proposing or the rest of the changes"},{"t":6567,"text":"you're proposing. And if so, how. Through the mayor, uh,"},{"t":6572,"text":"essentially no, not at all. We would just remove it"},{"t":6574,"text":"from our data set in terms of what's getting ported"},{"t":6576,"text":"over. It's a pretty simple change for us. Okay. And"},{"t":6580,"text":"the rest of it can proceed. That's correct. Assuming it's"},{"t":6582,"text":"adopted today. Yeah. Okay. Yes. Councillor Gardner on the amendment?"},{"t":6587,"text":"Yes. I read the amendment as affecting attachment B. Is"},{"t":6594,"text":"that correct staff? Essentially. To the mayor. Yes. Yeah. The"},{"t":6599,"text":"map. So it would be removed from the map in"},{"t":6601,"text":"thus removed from this rezoning. Very good. Okay. Anybody else"},{"t":6605,"text":"on the amendment? Councillor Loan on the amendment. Thanks to"},{"t":6608,"text":"you, Mayor. I'm also in support of this. We had"},{"t":6612,"text":"many, many, many emails from concerned residents in James Bay."},{"t":6616,"text":"And I think it's really important that, that we're listening"},{"t":6618,"text":"to those concerns. And also, I just think that it"},{"t":6621,"text":"makes good pragmatic sets to do this work in conjunction"},{"t":6625,"text":"with, uh, the GVHA and their master plan. So happy"},{"t":6629,"text":"to support it. Thank you. Council Coleman, did you have"},{"t":6632,"text":"a comment on the amendment? Go ahead. Thank you. Um,"},{"t":6634,"text":"the other way that this could have been achieved, I"},{"t":6637,"text":"suppose is to disagree with the staff recommendation that we"},{"t":6640,"text":"waive the public hearing. I think it makes much more"},{"t":6642,"text":"sense to actually aggregate this with, um, the GVHA plans."},{"t":6648,"text":"So I'm quite willing to support this. Thank you very"},{"t":6650,"text":"much. Yes. That was in my mind as well. So"},{"t":6655,"text":"I'm able to support this amendment. I think it's a"},{"t":6658,"text":"more efficient and cleaner way to deal with the issues"},{"t":6660,"text":"that have been raised around Ogden Point. So on the"},{"t":6665,"text":"amendment only, all those in favor. Is anyone opposed. That"},{"t":6671,"text":"is unanimous. So that amendment will stay. Councillor Dell, you"},{"t":6677,"text":"still have the floor on the main motion. Because you"},{"t":6680,"text":"were the last. And this was your amendment. I think"},{"t":6683,"text":"I'll just say on the main motion, I just want"},{"t":6685,"text":"to thank staff for the work. I actually thought the"},{"t":6686,"text":"report was very good and transitioning older zoning bylaws into"},{"t":6691,"text":"new simplified zoning bylaws aligns with the work that we"},{"t":6694,"text":"want to be doing at the city. And so I"},{"t":6695,"text":"thought it's very thoughtful, including the pieces on Ogden Point."},{"t":6699,"text":"I think we are going from 30 zones down to"},{"t":6701,"text":"three zones, which just simply makes things more administratively efficient,"},{"t":6706,"text":"which most people agree on. And hopefully allow us for"},{"t":6708,"text":"better use of the industrial lands, which I think most"},{"t":6710,"text":"people agree on. We want to support our jobs and"},{"t":6712,"text":"industrial land. So, um, yeah, thank you for the report."},{"t":6715,"text":"And hopefully we didn't slow down your progress too much"},{"t":6717,"text":"with the amendment. But, um, I think, uh, I'm happy"},{"t":6720,"text":"to support this. Thank you. Thank you. Councillor Kim is"},{"t":6723,"text":"the secondary of the motion itself. Now amended nothing to"},{"t":6726,"text":"add. Nothing to add. Councillor Cardona. Thanks Mayor. I will"},{"t":6732,"text":"confine my comments to the area in the upper heart"},{"t":6739,"text":"and the light industrial and marine. Industrial zones. Sorry. I"},{"t":6747,"text":"think this is a really important moment actually, even though"},{"t":6750,"text":"in my reading of the staff report with the exception"},{"t":6753,"text":"notable exception of some stuff about parking and design guidelines,"},{"t":6756,"text":"it doesn't radically change things. I mean, mostly these bylaws"},{"t":6759,"text":"or housekeeping and administrative. However, it is really important for"},{"t":6763,"text":"us as a city to confirm. That we value light"},{"t":6766,"text":"heavy and marine industrial zoning. And there has been anxieties,"},{"t":6770,"text":"uh, from some of our partners, industrial partners who are"},{"t":6772,"text":"worried, who are constantly worried about being zoned out of"},{"t":6775,"text":"existence. And we've seen it happen in other cities where"},{"t":6778,"text":"they said, you know, that heavy industrial land, you know,"},{"t":6781,"text":"the problem with emissions, the problem with noise, maybe we'll"},{"t":6784,"text":"just switch side over to condos. And that has happened"},{"t":6788,"text":"all across North America. And I've talked about Ute Lee"},{"t":6790,"text":"before. He's got that show on CBC and any YouTube"},{"t":6793,"text":"channel called About Here. And he did a whole video"},{"t":6795,"text":"about industrial zoning, heavy industrial zoning. And the drawbacks that"},{"t":6801,"text":"have come from cities that have downzoned or rezone those"},{"t":6804,"text":"areas. And the video actually focuses on Metro Vancouver. And"},{"t":6808,"text":"what an incredible loss it's been for those local governments."},{"t":6811,"text":"They've, they've reduced their employment lands. They've also reduced their"},{"t":6814,"text":"tax base. And I know our industrial partners don't necessarily"},{"t":6817,"text":"want to hear it, but they are major source of"},{"t":6819,"text":"revenue for local governments. But more importantly, there are major"},{"t":6823,"text":"source for employment. Right? The ROMAX family of businesses employs"},{"t":6827,"text":"something like 500 people. If you get rid of that"},{"t":6829,"text":"zoning, you get rid of all those really good blue"},{"t":6831,"text":"collar jobs. So beyond that, if I think about the"},{"t":6835,"text":"trips that I take to, um, to Ellis, our industrial"},{"t":6839,"text":"zoning areas in zoned areas provide really critically important services."},{"t":6845,"text":"Beyond the employment, be on the tax base. They are"},{"t":6848,"text":"serving people. They're also sites where things are made. I've"},{"t":6850,"text":"always really liked rock bay because rock bays is the"},{"t":6853,"text":"place in Victoria where things get made. And we have"},{"t":6856,"text":"seen this shift of the last 30, 40 years in"},{"t":6858,"text":"the Western world where cities have gone from being places"},{"t":6861,"text":"where people make things to places just where people consume"},{"t":6865,"text":"things. And I think if we want to have a"},{"t":6867,"text":"sustainable urban environment, we have to continue to be places"},{"t":6870,"text":"where things are made and things are done. And hands"},{"t":6873,"text":"are used. And, uh, and we can't do that if"},{"t":6876,"text":"we're just a city that only has residential. So I'm"},{"t":6879,"text":"strongly supportive of this and to confirm and said that"},{"t":6882,"text":"signal to business partners, to community partners, to those enlightened"},{"t":6885,"text":"heavy industry, considering investing here. That we are going to"},{"t":6889,"text":"continue to be a working harbour that we're going to"},{"t":6891,"text":"continue to be a city that values the making of"},{"t":6893,"text":"things that we're going to continue to support industry, responsible"},{"t":6898,"text":"industry that reduces their emissions and their effluent into the"},{"t":6901,"text":"water. And we've seen that from our partners. And to"},{"t":6905,"text":"continue to be a place where things aren't just consumed,"},{"t":6907,"text":"but are also made. So while this is somewhat housekeeping,"},{"t":6910,"text":"I think it's also sending a really strong signal to"},{"t":6912,"text":"the community. Thanks Mayor. Thank you very much. Councillor Gardner."},{"t":6917,"text":"Thank you. A few other amendments. Recommendation number seven. I'd"},{"t":6922,"text":"like to remove the last nine words. Hang on. Let's"},{"t":6927,"text":"just see what that is. Okay. Just before I"},{"t":6936,"text":"ask for a second, I'm going to ask Steph. Would"},{"t":6939,"text":"the removal of this then require there to be consultation"},{"t":6944,"text":"with the provincial and federal governments? Is that the implication."},{"t":6949,"text":"Through Mayor Alto, that is correct. And I would maybe"},{"t":6952,"text":"just add that we have certainly been working closely for"},{"t":6955,"text":"the past several years with transport Canada on a lot"},{"t":6958,"text":"of planning endeavours through the OCP, the zoning, um, and"},{"t":6962,"text":"looking at ways to improve it even our processes and"},{"t":6964,"text":"communications with them. So I just want to highlight the"},{"t":6966,"text":"transfer candidate, certainly aware of this work. But we would"},{"t":6968,"text":"certainly, uh, with removal of this, we would certainly continue"},{"t":6970,"text":"to, we would consult with any affected government agencies. Is"},{"t":6976,"text":"the Seconder for this amendment. I'll second the amendment for"},{"t":6985,"text":"conversation. Sure. Go ahead, Councillor Gardner on the amendment. Thank"},{"t":6988,"text":"you. We learned from the roundhouse development. How important is,"},{"t":6993,"text":"uh, to be sure of who all we're consulting. We"},{"t":6995,"text":"also know coming forward, we hope we're going to get"},{"t":6998,"text":"a big chunk of the billions of dollars of defence"},{"t":7000,"text":"money coming in. And, uh, so I think it's very"},{"t":7003,"text":"important that we keep in mind beyond transparent county, you"},{"t":7007,"text":"have fisheries and oceans and fisheries is rotine, of course,"},{"t":7010,"text":"is the owner of a lot of that land that"},{"t":7012,"text":"the Coast Guard's on. And I think even the DND"},{"t":7015,"text":"property. So I just want to make sure that they"},{"t":7017,"text":"are involved rather than just the tenets of the fisheries"},{"t":7020,"text":"and oceans land and also water is, of course, are"},{"t":7024,"text":"harbour lands are connected to the water. So I just"},{"t":7027,"text":"think that we have to kind of broaden that. And"},{"t":7030,"text":"I'm afraid of cutting them out that we might have"},{"t":7031,"text":"unintended consequences. Thank you. Thank you. I just seconded to"},{"t":7036,"text":"this to make sure it could be discussed. So I'll"},{"t":7038,"text":"go to Councillor Kim. Question for staff. Through the chair."},{"t":7042,"text":"The federal government is quite a black box sometimes. And"},{"t":7045,"text":"so if you were to attempt to do consultation with"},{"t":7049,"text":"the government, um, and they don't get back to you."},{"t":7053,"text":"Does that count as consultation? Um, like what is the"},{"t":7056,"text":"threshold here given their own, um, general unresponsiveness sometimes. Should"},{"t":7065,"text":"Ratalos? Uh, Mayor ultimate. I'll speak maybe from a staff"},{"t":7068,"text":"to staff level and having a working relationship with transport"},{"t":7072,"text":"candidate. My understanding is there really are conduit because we"},{"t":7075,"text":"have a good working relationship with the harbour master here"},{"t":7077,"text":"in terms of getting that information not only to transport"},{"t":7079,"text":"Canada, but their referral to other federal ministries as well"},{"t":7083,"text":"that might have a say in matters related to the"},{"t":7086,"text":"harbour. How's Kim any further? No. I think also on"},{"t":7091,"text":"the amendment. And as to remove this struck through bolded"},{"t":7095,"text":"language. Councillor Coleman. Thank you. Just a question through you,"},{"t":7101,"text":"your worship to staff. Does this consultation change. Staff's timelines."},{"t":7110,"text":"In any way? Strang Grove. Uh, so through the mirror,"},{"t":7113,"text":"this consultation is for the OCP update that would change"},{"t":7116,"text":"the guidelines, the consultation isn't, uh, applicable to the zoning"},{"t":7120,"text":"changes, which would go through more expedient late. Thank you."},{"t":7126,"text":"The other questions on the amendment. I have to say"},{"t":7132,"text":"I have some concerns about the amendment only because I"},{"t":7135,"text":"hearken back to the notion of the breadth of that"},{"t":7139,"text":"description and whether or not it would have any narrowing"},{"t":7142,"text":"implications unintentionally given the answer that staff gave speaking to"},{"t":7147,"text":"their ongoing relationship with their equivalents. Not sure this is"},{"t":7151,"text":"necessary. And I'm a little concerned about that unintended consequence."},{"t":7156,"text":"So I'm not sure about this. Um, that being said."},{"t":7161,"text":"All those in favor of the amendment. Counts their gardener"},{"t":7166,"text":"and Councillor Heming. In opposition, Councillor Dell, Councillor Kim, Councillor"},{"t":7172,"text":"Cardin, it comes from Loton myself at Councillor Coleman and"},{"t":7175,"text":"Councillor Thompson. So that amendment fails, but Councillor Gardner, you"},{"t":7180,"text":"still have the floor. Thank you. I'm concerned a bit"},{"t":7184,"text":"about, uh, recommendations five and six. For example, five says"},{"t":7187,"text":"members of the public may be interested. I think we"},{"t":7189,"text":"now know the public is interested. And so I don't"},{"t":7191,"text":"know if we have to change these recommendations to accommodate"},{"t":7194,"text":"the reality that is before us now or what we"},{"t":7196,"text":"have to do. So I seek your direction here, Mayor."},{"t":7201,"text":"What is your intent. Well, it says a public may"},{"t":7206,"text":"be interested and therefore we might kind of contact them."},{"t":7209,"text":"We've already identified them. It says. I think I understand"},{"t":7216,"text":"your intent, but I would suggest that given the conversation"},{"t":7220,"text":"that we have just had with staff, and the amendment"},{"t":7225,"text":"that's been adopted around excluding point from this portion of"},{"t":7229,"text":"the work, that the language that's there provides. The ability"},{"t":7235,"text":"to have engagements, what doesn't necessarily dictate what kind of"},{"t":7240,"text":"engagement. Um, I'm not sure I think anything is required"},{"t":7247,"text":"to narrow this. It seems to me that you're trying"},{"t":7251,"text":"to make something a bit more proactive, but I don't"},{"t":7253,"text":"know that it's necessary. If you have some thoughts around"},{"t":7256,"text":"language, certainly entirely in order to suggest me. The public"},{"t":7262,"text":"is interested. Right. Steph, can you tell me a little"},{"t":7268,"text":"bit more, tell us a little bit more about the"},{"t":7269,"text":"purpose of number five in particular. Number six is pretty"},{"t":7273,"text":"straightforward. It's provide an opportunity for consultation. So that's fine."},{"t":7277,"text":"That's proactive. But what's the, what's the purpose of number"},{"t":7279,"text":"five. Through Mayor Alto, I'll begin and certainly perhaps somebody"},{"t":7285,"text":"from the solicitor's office can probably provide a little bit"},{"t":7288,"text":"more information. But number five is a requirement through the"},{"t":7291,"text":"local government act at Council needs to turn their attention"},{"t":7293,"text":"when there's an OCP amendment in terms of which groups"},{"t":7296,"text":"or parties or individuals may be affected by an OCP"},{"t":7299,"text":"amendment. So number five and six are related to the"},{"t":7302,"text":"direction to rescind the harbour road design guidelines and update"},{"t":7306,"text":"the general urban design guidelines with more detailed description or"},{"t":7310,"text":"guidance, uh, specific to heavy industrial and marine industrial. And"},{"t":7314,"text":"then hence number six outlines how those changes to the"},{"t":7317,"text":"design guidelines and that Bylon amendment, uh, would be communicated"},{"t":7320,"text":"publicly. So if I understand you correctly five and six,"},{"t":7325,"text":"number five directs staff to turn their minds to who"},{"t":7330,"text":"in particular would be affected. Not just the general public."},{"t":7334,"text":"And given that consideration, should there be an identification of"},{"t":7339,"text":"those individuals organisations and authorities that there would then be"},{"t":7344,"text":"the opportunity to provide that greater public consultation. Is that"},{"t":7348,"text":"about right. Uh, just the mayor, it's council actually that"},{"t":7355,"text":"is determining this. So, so Mayor Maya is struggling a"},{"t":7361,"text":"little bit with what it is that you exactly want"},{"t":7363,"text":"to do. May I assist given the comments we've got"},{"t":7365,"text":"from staff half an hour ago an hour ago, uh,"},{"t":7368,"text":"that might help if in number six was expanded to"},{"t":7372,"text":"include, I'm more concerned about the marine rather than the"},{"t":7379,"text":"other ones that we've done before. So include the Vic"},{"t":7383,"text":"West Community Association and JBNA as organisations. To be notified"},{"t":7389,"text":"so they don't have to go through social media to"},{"t":7391,"text":"find out about it. So you're suggesting in number six"},{"t":7394,"text":"that there'd be an amendment to add those two groups"},{"t":7396,"text":"at the end of the sentence. That's a fair amendment."},{"t":7399,"text":"Yep. Go ahead. So after Song He's Nation, it'd be"},{"t":7402,"text":"a comma. And it would be and the Victoria West"},{"t":7408,"text":"neighbourhood association. Community Association. And the James Bay neighbourhood association."},{"t":7416,"text":"That would be an amendment. Is there a seconder for"},{"t":7418,"text":"that? Amendment. Chris did. Yeah, Councillor Coleman. Yes. Go ahead."},{"t":7423,"text":"Yeah. Go ahead Councillor Gardner. No. Councillor Coleman on the"},{"t":7429,"text":"amendment. Well, I just, the recommendation is that Council do"},{"t":7433,"text":"these things. It's not that staff do it. Um, and"},{"t":7437,"text":"so we actually did that in pulling. Ogden Point off."},{"t":7444,"text":"We've already started that process. So I think it's fair"},{"t":7447,"text":"to do it. And I'm, as the lick west rep,"},{"t":7450,"text":"I'm meeting with them next week. I'll bring it up."},{"t":7452,"text":"So I'm supportive of this. I will just point out"},{"t":7454,"text":"though that since this is an amendment to number six,"},{"t":7457,"text":"it does say provide an opportunity for consultation pursuing to"},{"t":7460,"text":"the appropriate hex. And instruct the director to notify the"},{"t":7464,"text":"public of the amendment and invite etc. So the information"},{"t":7468,"text":"comes back to Council, but it's actually staff who provide"},{"t":7472,"text":"the information, right? Just to be clear. Yeah. Councillor. Yes."},{"t":7478,"text":"So there's an amendment on the floor to add those"},{"t":7481,"text":"two associations. Any further comment on the amendment. Checking online."},{"t":7486,"text":"Nope. On the amendment. I'll go ahead, Councillor Thompson. Just"},{"t":7492,"text":"a question about the meaning. If you look at the"},{"t":7495,"text":"phrase, uh, refer any OCP updates to the nations and"},{"t":7500,"text":"Vic West and Community Association. So is that what we're"},{"t":7503,"text":"just referring OCP updates and nothing about the rest of"},{"t":7506,"text":"it. Well, the way it's phrased is the OCP updates."},{"t":7513,"text":"That's, that's the section that it's in Councillor? Perhaps this"},{"t":7517,"text":"word should be moved up to write where I wanted"},{"t":7520,"text":"initially was its organisations like up there halfway through that"},{"t":7523,"text":"clause. Invite affected persons organisations, including dot, dot, dot, doh."},{"t":7531,"text":"And then in there is where I wanted it. Okay."},{"t":7534,"text":"So staff, uh, let's just cut off the bold material"},{"t":7537,"text":"there and stick it in under the word organisations. And"},{"t":7541,"text":"the third line, right there. Uh, yes, there you go."},{"t":7547,"text":"Yep. Yep. Including, yes. There you go. All right. That"},{"t":7556,"text":"seems to make more sense. Anything further on the amendments."},{"t":7563,"text":"I'm not seeing anything further on the amendments. Wait. Oh,"},{"t":7565,"text":"sorry. Yes. Mr. I. Go ahead. Uh, so I think"},{"t":7568,"text":"we might want to include burnside gorge community association as"},{"t":7571,"text":"well since a large portion of the industrial areas are"},{"t":7574,"text":"in that neighbourhood. Good point. I'm going to take that"},{"t":7576,"text":"as advice from staff and include that in the amendment."},{"t":7581,"text":"DOA. Um, yeah, could be. I mean, everything I guess"},{"t":7586,"text":"that touches the water is technically relevant. So it would"},{"t":7589,"text":"be the burnside gorge Community Association and the downtown residents"},{"t":7593,"text":"association. We're being a little, a little relaxed in our"},{"t":7602,"text":"procedures here to try and accommodate the interests of Council."},{"t":7606,"text":"And the public. All right. We'll consider that the original"},{"t":7609,"text":"amendment. Anything further on the amendment. Not seeing anything further."},{"t":7615,"text":"All those in favor of the amendment. Anybody opposed. That"},{"t":7621,"text":"is unanimous. Councillor Garner, you still over the floor. Thank"},{"t":7624,"text":"you. Thank you. I'm still a bit confused. I want"},{"t":7627,"text":"to make sure number 10 that we don't put any"},{"t":7631,"text":"condo restrictions or rules onto the property owners of port"},{"t":7636,"text":"hope or often point regarding parking. And so do you"},{"t":7642,"text":"have an amendment? Well, this is kind of written in"},{"t":7644,"text":"the negative. So I'm not too sure exactly. I've asked"},{"t":7647,"text":"the question. I'm still not sure what it means. Cause"},{"t":7649,"text":"I don't want them to be saying all of a"},{"t":7650,"text":"sudden a 30 percent applies to them. Mr. Angelo, can"},{"t":7654,"text":"you speak to the impact of number 10, if any?"},{"t":7657,"text":"Uh, yes, through the mayor, this would mean that there"},{"t":7659,"text":"would be zero vehicle parking requirements for these, uh, urban"},{"t":7662,"text":"industrial and reserve properties. Uh, they'd still work, this is"},{"t":7666,"text":"a similar exemption that we are proposing for the downtown"},{"t":7669,"text":"area in which they would still be required to have"},{"t":7672,"text":"the minimums that we're proposing for loading accessible parking and"},{"t":7676,"text":"bicycle parking. So it would just be about the employee"},{"t":7679,"text":"parking would be zero, which allows for flexibility. It just"},{"t":7685,"text":"means there is no, um, minimum. They're not required to"},{"t":7689,"text":"provide. But they can, they can provide as much as"},{"t":7692,"text":"they want. Okay. Thank you. I'm okay with that. Okay."},{"t":7705,"text":"Recommendation number nine. Can we bring it back this afternoon"},{"t":7707,"text":"given that there has to be in a change to"},{"t":7709,"text":"the, uh, attachment number two. That actually was a question"},{"t":7712,"text":"I was going to pose to staff. Uh, can you"},{"t":7714,"text":"explain the rationale for same day consideration. Mr. Johnston. Yes."},{"t":7723,"text":"Uh, staff are recommending same day ratification. Just looking at,"},{"t":7726,"text":"um, the schedule of Council meetings and recognising that there"},{"t":7729,"text":"is a council break in August, uh, same day ratification"},{"t":7733,"text":"would allow us to proceed with preparing the bylaws and"},{"t":7737,"text":"notices so that there could potentially be Council consideration of"},{"t":7740,"text":"that prior to the break. If we did not have"},{"t":7743,"text":"same day ratification, then that would delay the consideration of"},{"t":7747,"text":"the bylaws to, uh, after the break. So even though"},{"t":7752,"text":"the public hearing, assuming that that clause remains there, uh,"},{"t":7756,"text":"it's because of the timing and the requirements for notification"},{"t":7758,"text":"on bylaws. Correct? That's correct. Yeah. That work wouldn't get"},{"t":7763,"text":"underway until the motion is ratified by Council. So typically"},{"t":7767,"text":"that would be two weeks prior to today. And, um,"},{"t":7770,"text":"without that two week delay, we could proceed quickly with"},{"t":7775,"text":"preparing the bylaws and notices. And further to the question"},{"t":7778,"text":"that was posed given the changes that we've made to"},{"t":7782,"text":"the recommendation that has no impact on the same day"},{"t":7786,"text":"consideration. No, it would not because Council is directing us"},{"t":7791,"text":"to change the Byte to change the map. Um, but"},{"t":7793,"text":"it's not a bylaw. So in the Bylaw, we bring"},{"t":7796,"text":"forward, it would just be excluded. Very good. Thank you."},{"t":7799,"text":"Anything else? Is this time for comments? Yes, absolutely. Thank"},{"t":7804,"text":"you. Over the past 20 years, I've been a supporter"},{"t":7808,"text":"of the Working Harbour. A deep water port in the"},{"t":7811,"text":"middle of a city offers a competitive advantage for industry."},{"t":7815,"text":"And this is very important to our city. We'll not"},{"t":7819,"text":"involve with the Seoning process. I've participated with the Ogden"},{"t":7822,"text":"Point Master Plan effectively signing off, toss it approval in"},{"t":7826,"text":"2026 or in 2016. However, um, this report in some"},{"t":7834,"text":"ways missed the mark in that it did not really"},{"t":7837,"text":"consider, uh, the neighbourhoods, which might be affected. And so,"},{"t":7841,"text":"uh, I'm glad that we've made some changes to that"},{"t":7843,"text":"today. It also misses a heavy industry trend. The industry"},{"t":7850,"text":"is evolving and softening their local footprint with major facilities"},{"t":7853,"text":"adopting pollution controls, engaging in a transparent collaborative planning. We"},{"t":7858,"text":"have seen that quite often with the ROMAX group of"},{"t":7861,"text":"companies. The general purposes of zoning are to regulate land"},{"t":7866,"text":"ensure compatibility with neighbouring properties through attention to issues such"},{"t":7870,"text":"as noise, pollution, traffic impacts, and character of structures. And"},{"t":7875,"text":"to support a sustainable community, including areas of employment. This"},{"t":7879,"text":"reporter in our approach really has not done that. And"},{"t":7882,"text":"I would hope that going forward that we see actual"},{"t":7886,"text":"changes in approach. Victoria's land constrained. We do not have"},{"t":7890,"text":"the luxury of open space to buffer industry from other"},{"t":7893,"text":"areas, such as existing high - density residential development. As"},{"t":7898,"text":"a result, in his prudent to conserve what industrial land"},{"t":7902,"text":"we have from other uses that can outbid industrial land."},{"t":7907,"text":"I fully appreciate and agree with that, uh, approach. Conserving"},{"t":7911,"text":"industrial lands while ensuring compatibility with neighbourhood uses requires regulatory"},{"t":7916,"text":"reflexibility, which transitional zoning is ill - equipped to manage."},{"t":7922,"text":"And I noted that the state of objectives of the"},{"t":7925,"text":"zoning bylaw modernization to not include the world's compatibility with"},{"t":7930,"text":"neighbourhood uses. This is where the approach Mrs. the Mark."},{"t":7935,"text":"Public engagement has been with industrial landovers and businesses. But"},{"t":7942,"text":"so far, but not really involving adjacent landowners and residents."},{"t":7946,"text":"Past efforts to involve adjacent residents have been successful. In"},{"t":7951,"text":"particular, the fishermen's wharf plan and the all - component"},{"t":7953,"text":"master plan exercises generated considerable interests and support, even though"},{"t":7958,"text":"the GVHA chose not to submit that well - considered"},{"t":7961,"text":"draft plan of 2016 to City Council. While the current"},{"t":7970,"text":"transitional zoning approach achieves administrative simplicity, it may not maximize"},{"t":7975,"text":"flexibility for industrial land owners and greater certainty for neighbourhood"},{"t":7979,"text":"users that other mechanisms such as performance - based zoning"},{"t":7983,"text":"might achieve. Conflict between residents and industrial years is not"},{"t":7987,"text":"inevitable. And no example is more illustrative than the very"},{"t":7993,"text":"successful operation of the Canadian Coast Guard. Directly across the"},{"t":7997,"text":"street from high - density residential developments. The Coast Guard"},{"t":8001,"text":"was not subject to city bylaw requirements. They simply chose"},{"t":8004,"text":"to be good neighbours while offering what would otherwise be"},{"t":8008,"text":"classified as a heavy industrial site. So I think we"},{"t":8011,"text":"need that attitude carried out throughout our industrial area. I"},{"t":8015,"text":"know we've seen a lot of it with the RELMAX"},{"t":8021,"text":"in the FICWES area. And that has been very important."},{"t":8024,"text":"And there was a promise of it within the 2016"},{"t":8028,"text":"Enquanto Point Master Plan. But I would hope staff to"},{"t":8031,"text":"what incorporate in their thinking, the compatibility with neighbourhoods. Thank"},{"t":8035,"text":"you, Mayor. Thank you very much. Anyone else on the"},{"t":8038,"text":"main motion. How'd you Coleman? Thank you. Um, it was"},{"t":8044,"text":"recognised earlier that this is much more important decision than"},{"t":8049,"text":"I think perhaps even we've turned our minds to, this"},{"t":8052,"text":"is about the future of, um, an integrated community that"},{"t":8058,"text":"recognises industrial capacity is important. And in this case, particularly"},{"t":8062,"text":"Marine industrial, the future 50 years from now, it was"},{"t":8068,"text":"referenced that there are perhaps 500 jobs in one operation."},{"t":8074,"text":"If this works properly, and I think it will, um,"},{"t":8077,"text":"that could be doubled that amount in household sustaining jobs"},{"t":8081,"text":"in the region. Um, it is critical to our tax"},{"t":8085,"text":"base, but it is also critical to the ongoing operation"},{"t":8090,"text":"of all marine industries. And they play a critical part."},{"t":8101,"text":"To perhaps even the nation's expansion into the Pacific Rim."},{"t":8106,"text":"I think that this is actually much more transformative than"},{"t":8110,"text":"we've been allowed to discuss. Um, I think it's critically"},{"t":8113,"text":"important that we move forward with this. And I recognise"},{"t":8116,"text":"there's always going to be concern about impacts that we"},{"t":8120,"text":"may feel in our neighbourhood, but it's about where our"},{"t":8124,"text":"grandchildren may be stabilized in staying in the area. Um,"},{"t":8128,"text":"I think I look back to. A transcendent battle that"},{"t":8133,"text":"we had many years ago in one of the neighbourhoods"},{"t":8137,"text":"and in those days we didn't have email. We had"},{"t":8141,"text":"phone calls at home and we had letters. And my"},{"t":8144,"text":"wife took just over 300 phone calls. 153 were in"},{"t":8153,"text":"favor 149, if I remember properly were against, um. And"},{"t":8159,"text":"council on a 54 decision chose to endorse an application"},{"t":8163,"text":"that now is almost 20 years later, a vibrant part"},{"t":8168,"text":"of the community. And I will admit that I voted"},{"t":8172,"text":"against that and I was probably wrong. Um, but I"},{"t":8176,"text":"learned over the years that the decisions we make today"},{"t":8179,"text":"have profound impacts two and three generations away. This is"},{"t":8183,"text":"one of those decisions. Um, and I'm quite happy to"},{"t":8186,"text":"support it because it has a profound impact for our"},{"t":8189,"text":"region. Thank you very much. Councillor Kim. Thanks through the"},{"t":8197,"text":"chair. I wasn't going to add anything, but, um, I'd"},{"t":8200,"text":"like to actually, uh, provide some, uh, fodder to compliment"},{"t":8205,"text":"my, uh, preceding colleagues comments. In terms of impacts, uh,"},{"t":8211,"text":"coming down the line, being able to support the marine"},{"t":8216,"text":"industry and revenue generation actually also means climate action. It"},{"t":8222,"text":"means we'll be able to bring in the revenue we"},{"t":8224,"text":"need to continue to maintain and support, uh, the marine"},{"t":8228,"text":"infrastructure that at the moment is failing without this kind"},{"t":8231,"text":"of revitalization. And then also the Belleville terminal being constructed"},{"t":8235,"text":"at the moment actually is staging its materials offsite elsewhere,"},{"t":8242,"text":"um, along the coast in Victoria. And so the, the"},{"t":8245,"text":"marine area is actually acting as a materials highway specific"},{"t":8251,"text":"for the construction that will ultimately bolster our local economy"},{"t":8256,"text":"and tourism. So it really is all connected. And this"},{"t":8259,"text":"is, um, Councillor Coleman said it really well sort of"},{"t":8264,"text":"name you. But in a good way, uh, it's a"},{"t":8267,"text":"more important decision than perhaps we've turned our minds too."},{"t":8269,"text":"So thank you to staff for, um, understanding the importance"},{"t":8274,"text":"of what we're trying to do, even if we may"},{"t":8275,"text":"not all the time. Thanks. Thank you Councillor Thompson. Thanks"},{"t":8281,"text":"Mayor. I'll be very brief. We need the jobs family"},{"t":8285,"text":"supporting jobs, community supporting jobs. I'm happy to support. Councillor"},{"t":8291,"text":"Hemmond. Thanks Mayor last Friday Councillor Coleman and I joined"},{"t":8297,"text":"a group called Burnside Gorgeous. In which they take paint"},{"t":8303,"text":"that flows from, who said it flows from. And then"},{"t":8307,"text":"it goes through the city and we were painting, um,"},{"t":8311,"text":"any graffiti that was in the area. And it was"},{"t":8314,"text":"just a reminder for me as we're walking around these"},{"t":8316,"text":"businesses that are in this area that how rarely that"},{"t":8321,"text":"I go down there, unless there is some business reason"},{"t":8325,"text":"that I do go down there and how important the"},{"t":8328,"text":"business and the industrial and the marine community is for"},{"t":8332,"text":"the city. And so for me, it's just wonderful to"},{"t":8335,"text":"be able to not only support, but with our staffs"},{"t":8340,"text":"expertise help us, um, go in the right direction to"},{"t":8344,"text":"support businesses within our community. And so also I'm very"},{"t":8348,"text":"pleased that we're able to take care of Ogden Point."},{"t":8352,"text":"And so, um, that allows some breathing room for the"},{"t":8355,"text":"people in James Bay. And so I think this makes"},{"t":8358,"text":"it much easier to support this, uh, looking forward to"},{"t":8361,"text":"the positive results for businesses in the area. Thank you."},{"t":8365,"text":"Thank you very much. Anybody else. Um, I will echo,"},{"t":8371,"text":"but again, not repeat the positive comments of my colleagues."},{"t":8375,"text":"The only thing that I would add as to say"},{"t":8377,"text":"that, um, I think it is high time that we"},{"t":8381,"text":"turned our minds to some policy work that recognises the"},{"t":8386,"text":"incredible, um, industrial capacity. These creative maker spaces on small"},{"t":8394,"text":"and large degrees, uh, really create an incredible energy of"},{"t":8400,"text":"activity, of wealth, of participation, labour, all of the things"},{"t":8405,"text":"that have been mentioned. And we can't forget that as"},{"t":8409,"text":"our city evolves, um, meet the needs of our residents"},{"t":8413,"text":"because this, in fact, is a way for them to"},{"t":8414,"text":"ensure that we can. Have a city that they can"},{"t":8418,"text":"stay in. And so I'm quite delighted to support this."},{"t":8422,"text":"With that. All those in favor. Anyone opposed. Is unanimous."},{"t":8430,"text":"And thank you, Staff, for all the work that we"},{"t":8431,"text":"know went into bringing us to this point. That does"},{"t":8438,"text":"take us then to our final staff report. And that"},{"t":8442,"text":"is item G3. Let's see how much of this we"},{"t":8446,"text":"can get done before our lunch break. This is the"},{"t":8451,"text":"staff report. And the attendant, uh, memo from my office"},{"t":8458,"text":"with regard to Victoria Sanich amalgamation. I believe we're going"},{"t":8462,"text":"to have a presentation from the staff. And then I'm"},{"t":8464,"text":"going to ask staff to bring up the recommendations that"},{"t":8468,"text":"are intended to respond to the staff request for direction."},{"t":8473,"text":"Mr. Kingsley, over to you. Thank you very much, Mayor."},{"t":8476,"text":"We don't have a formal presentation plan for today other"},{"t":8479,"text":"than just introductory comments. As noted in the report, the"},{"t":8483,"text":"reports and we've brought this report to Council just to"},{"t":8486,"text":"provide information on the outcome of us advancing Council's last"},{"t":8490,"text":"resolution in regards to this matter. And also to see"},{"t":8492,"text":"conditional direction from Council Given in light of the new"},{"t":8497,"text":"information, particularly the response from the minister. Um, myself and"},{"t":8502,"text":"my colleague, our policy analyst, Barry Nichols are here to"},{"t":8505,"text":"assist with any questions of Council Azani. Very good. And"},{"t":8509,"text":"so just as a reminder to the public and council,"},{"t":8512,"text":"uh, the staff information only has the recommendation to receive."},{"t":8516,"text":"But I think the important piece and the staff report"},{"t":8519,"text":"is the first sentence in which there is direction from"},{"t":8522,"text":"council to staff to develop an amalgamation ballot question. And"},{"t":8526,"text":"then also for staff to seek further information and direction"},{"t":8530,"text":"on an attendant matter, which is around whether or not"},{"t":8533,"text":"there's any additional information that the city wishes to provide"},{"t":8536,"text":"to the public. In response to the request, I guess"},{"t":8542,"text":"I put it of staff for further direction. Uh, I"},{"t":8545,"text":"had shared with the public and with council, a very"},{"t":8549,"text":"short memo that has a bit of a background and"},{"t":8552,"text":"actually provides two recommendations in response to the staff request"},{"t":8556,"text":"for direction. And so I'm going to suggest that those"},{"t":8559,"text":"two recommendations are a good basis for us to begin."},{"t":8563,"text":"So I'm going to ask staff to put those on"},{"t":8565,"text":"the screen. And then before I move them, I will"},{"t":8569,"text":"then open the floor to questions. Uh, if there are"},{"t":8573,"text":"no questions or once those questions are asked and answered,"},{"t":8576,"text":"I will move the two recommendations intended to respond to"},{"t":8580,"text":"the staff request for direction. And we can use those"},{"t":8583,"text":"as a foundation for our discussion. So with those two"},{"t":8589,"text":"items on the screen, and hopefully made a little bit"},{"t":8591,"text":"bigger. Thank you. Uh, first we will open the floor"},{"t":8596,"text":"to questions, to staff on anything that is in the"},{"t":8599,"text":"staff report. If there are questions about these two recommendations,"},{"t":8603,"text":"let us hold those until they are on the floor."},{"t":8605,"text":"And then we can have those questions as part of"},{"t":8607,"text":"our discussion. First. Yes. And I'm sorry, I forgot to"},{"t":8610,"text":"mention earlier that Councillor Kim is the city's appointee to"},{"t":8615,"text":"our youth justice organisation. And so she'll be departing at"},{"t":8619,"text":"this moment to deal with their regular meeting and we'll"},{"t":8622,"text":"rejoin us when that is concluded, likely, I would suggest"},{"t":8625,"text":"after the lunch break. So first, questions on the staff"},{"t":8629,"text":"report to Councillor Cardino. Thanks very much. And thanks to"},{"t":8634,"text":"the staff report. My question, we'll focus mainly around the"},{"t":8640,"text":"question of bindingness. And we have this letter from the"},{"t":8644,"text":"minister from April of this year that indicates that the"},{"t":8647,"text":"province at this time is not supportive of moving forward"},{"t":8650,"text":"with the binding referendum. There's been a lot of consternation"},{"t":8655,"text":"about that. So I'd like to start by asking some"},{"t":8657,"text":"questions there. So maybe if we could just bring it"},{"t":8659,"text":"back to 2014 and 2018, I was around the table."},{"t":8663,"text":"A lot of us were not. Could staff provide us"},{"t":8665,"text":"with some more background on how the citizens'assembly came about."},{"t":8671,"text":"What their mandate was. What their TORs say and how,"},{"t":8676,"text":"and maybe it helped shed some light on how we've"},{"t":8677,"text":"ended up in this ambiguous situation where we're unclear about"},{"t":8681,"text":"whether or not we were holding or moving towards a"},{"t":8684,"text":"binding or a non binding referendum. Okay. I'm going to"},{"t":8688,"text":"go to Mr. Nichols for the background piece and then"},{"t":8691,"text":"periodically I may chime in to provide the information associated"},{"t":8696,"text":"with various meetings and interaction with minister's office. Mr. Nichols."},{"t":8701,"text":"Yes. Thank you. Um, long story short with this one,"},{"t":8705,"text":"I guess dating back to 2014, there was a community"},{"t":8709,"text":"opinion question throughout multiple jurisdictions in the capital region looking"},{"t":8713,"text":"at exploring. Uh, governance review or amalgamation and what came"},{"t":8718,"text":"from that was essentially the province putting the ball in"},{"t":8721,"text":"the court of the various local governments to do something"},{"t":8724,"text":"about that. You know, at the time, Sanich and Victoria's"},{"t":8728,"text":"mayors decided to explore it further. Um, uh, when it"},{"t":8733,"text":"comes to amalgamation, uh, to do a, for an agate"},{"t":8738,"text":"new occur requires a binding, uh, vote approved by minister's"},{"t":8743,"text":"order. Now like the staff report says, uh, there is"},{"t":8748,"text":"no legislation saying what needs to occur to lead to"},{"t":8751,"text":"that minister's order. Um, what staff have learned and what"},{"t":8755,"text":"had been, you know, discussed at the time with the"},{"t":8757,"text":"province that the province is preferred method was a citizen's"},{"t":8760,"text":"assembly. And that was done with Duncan and North Couch"},{"t":8763,"text":"and in 2017. So Sanich and Victoria's mayors at the"},{"t":8768,"text":"time had initiated conversations with the province and worked with"},{"t":8772,"text":"the province to look at adopting a similar method, uh,"},{"t":8775,"text":"for Victoria. And then that was ultimately placed in front"},{"t":8778,"text":"of the electorates at the 2018 general local election. And"},{"t":8783,"text":"it was endorsed. And that led to more conversations with"},{"t":8786,"text":"the province to establish a citizen's assembly similar to the"},{"t":8791,"text":"Duncan North Couch and method. Yeah. Thanks. And in the"},{"t":8797,"text":"Duncan, North Couchen example, that was a binding referendum, was"},{"t":8801,"text":"it not? Through the mayor, yes. That's correct. Uh, the"},{"t":8805,"text":"Dunkin, North Coach and Citizens Assembly recommended, uh, an amalgamation"},{"t":8809,"text":"vote. And the minister subsequently issued a minister's order for"},{"t":8814,"text":"a binding referendum. So this is through the mayor, but"},{"t":8817,"text":"speculative. But is there any indication of why our process"},{"t":8820,"text":"was treated differently than that one? Uh, through you, Mirror,"},{"t":8826,"text":"I would recommend the answer to that. Are the reasons"},{"t":8828,"text":"state? The only reasons we're aware, the reasons stated in"},{"t":8830,"text":"the minister's response letter that has been appended to the"},{"t":8833,"text":"staff report. I would note that in the minister's letter,"},{"t":8840,"text":"it does lay out a fairly succinctly that. The decision"},{"t":8844,"text":"of the minister arrested primarily on the fact that there"},{"t":8847,"text":"is a, an inclination to wish to have more conversation,"},{"t":8851,"text":"uh, before a binding question is put before the public."},{"t":8855,"text":"And that is conversation with a variety of different interests"},{"t":8858,"text":"as well as some further examination of a variety of"},{"t":8862,"text":"costs, implications, operational impacts, et cetera. Which I think the"},{"t":8868,"text":"citizens assembly would point to its own materials to do"},{"t":8872,"text":"suggest that much of that was done. But nevertheless, it"},{"t":8874,"text":"would seem that the minister would like an additional work"},{"t":8877,"text":"done on that matter. Thanks. And bring it back to"},{"t":8879,"text":"since the sound, I'm just trying to get a better"},{"t":8881,"text":"sense of what their expectations were, noting I did receive"},{"t":8884,"text":"an email from a member of the assembly, which I'll"},{"t":8886,"text":"read out later on when we get to comments. But."},{"t":8889,"text":"Is it reasonable to assume that the citizens assembly, or"},{"t":8893,"text":"do we have any textual reason to believe based upon"},{"t":8896,"text":"TORs, mandate letters, et cetera, that the citizens'assembly was operating"},{"t":8900,"text":"in a governance environment in which they were moving towards"},{"t":8904,"text":"a binding decision. Or was that left ambiguous. Mr. Faisley."},{"t":8910,"text":"Through you, Mayor. There's no, I don't think thereafiely one"},{"t":8918,"text":"way or the other. The citizens assembly was tasked at"},{"t":8921,"text":"exploring the issue and arriving at recommendations to make to"},{"t":8924,"text":"both communities, which they did. Their recommendations were listed in"},{"t":8929,"text":"their final report. But I would note that their final"},{"t":8932,"text":"report, they were recommending for a vote to happen in"},{"t":8936,"text":"both communities. And for us to involve the province and"},{"t":8939,"text":"that discussion to enable that to happen. That is clear,"},{"t":8943,"text":"at least a staff from the recommendations and the specificity"},{"t":8946,"text":"that they put in their final report. Sorry, just to"},{"t":8949,"text":"clarify for the edification of the public. The recommendation, as"},{"t":8952,"text":"we interpret it from the Citizens Assembly was a binding"},{"t":8955,"text":"referendum. Through you mayor, our understanding from the final report"},{"t":8964,"text":"was to work with the province to seek off was"},{"t":8967,"text":"to seek the next steps, which could include that. So"},{"t":8970,"text":"admittedly, it is not absolutely clear. It is an, it"},{"t":8974,"text":"is interpretive. It is in the discussions that we had"},{"t":8977,"text":"following council's resolution for us to pursue a ballot question"},{"t":8981,"text":"with our colleagues in the District of Sanich. That is"},{"t":8984,"text":"where this notion of formally asking the province for authorization"},{"t":8988,"text":"really became more concrete. And it is in those conversations"},{"t":8991,"text":"where we agreed to work with our Sanic colleagues to"},{"t":8994,"text":"approach the ministry and seek authorization for lack of a"},{"t":8999,"text":"better way of describing it binding, referendum question. Thank you."},{"t":9003,"text":"And - Just note for Councillor and the public that"},{"t":9006,"text":"in the letter that both Mayor Murdoch and I signed"},{"t":9009,"text":"to the Minister last fall. It was very specific in"},{"t":9012,"text":"noting the reference to the Citizen's Assembly. And their requirement"},{"t":9018,"text":"that we seek permission for a binding referendum, and that"},{"t":9022,"text":"that is the request that we made. Okay. Thank you."},{"t":9024,"text":"That's helpful. And just in terms of our commitments as"},{"t":9027,"text":"a councillor, as a government, we notionally or nominally agreed"},{"t":9032,"text":"to put a referendum question on the ballot in 2026."},{"t":9036,"text":"For me personally, I made that commitment based upon the"},{"t":9040,"text":"assumption that it would be binding. Was there any sense"},{"t":9043,"text":"when we made that decision, whenever it was a couple"},{"t":9045,"text":"of years ago, that we were committing to a binding"},{"t":9049,"text":"referendum, or did we also leave that ambiguous. Crazy? Uh,"},{"t":9054,"text":"3MER Council's specific instructions to us didn't include the word"},{"t":9058,"text":"binding. It just directed us to pursue a question for"},{"t":9062,"text":"the ballot. As I mentioned before, it was council's instruction"},{"t":9066,"text":"was also to work closely with our colleagues in the"},{"t":9068,"text":"District of Sanich and in discussions with the province. It"},{"t":9071,"text":"was in the discussions with our colleagues in the District"},{"t":9074,"text":"of Sanich. They felt strongly that they wish this to"},{"t":9076,"text":"be a binding question that we should approach the province"},{"t":9079,"text":"to do so. We saw that as, um, congruent with"},{"t":9083,"text":"the direction we had from Council. And so we agreed"},{"t":9086,"text":"and worked together in that way. But specifically as to"},{"t":9090,"text":"Council's resolution, we didn't see anything that specifically specified that"},{"t":9095,"text":"it must be a binding question. It just, we didn't"},{"t":9098,"text":"see anything that says it wasn't to be, but we"},{"t":9100,"text":"didn't see anything that said it had to be. I'll"},{"t":9102,"text":"have lots more to say on all these ambiguities when"},{"t":9105,"text":"we get to comments. But sticking with questions, what's the"},{"t":9107,"text":"total amount that we and San Antich and the province"},{"t":9110,"text":"have spent so far. On this amalgamation question of the"},{"t":9114,"text":"last 10 years. Mr. Nichols? Yeah, through the mayor, the"},{"t":9120,"text":"citizens'assembly process had a budget of 750, 000. It came"},{"t":9125,"text":"in a bit below that. Um, don't have to, the"},{"t":9128,"text":"exact number. Um, in terms of other, other, you know,"},{"t":9132,"text":"resources spent on this, uh, can't, can't speculate on that."},{"t":9137,"text":"I mean, is it safe to say that with staff"},{"t":9139,"text":"time, we've spent over a million dollars on this. Mr."},{"t":9143,"text":"Kingsley, would it be that high. Um, again, we'd have"},{"t":9148,"text":"to speculate if Council wanted that specificity. We'd have to"},{"t":9152,"text":"look a little more historically at staff time that would"},{"t":9154,"text":"have gone into the other incidents mentioned in the report"},{"t":9158,"text":"in the past of preparing items and things, but those"},{"t":9161,"text":"two are knowledge were just staff time and not specifically"},{"t":9164,"text":"expenses that we paid to consultants, um, for their time."},{"t":9168,"text":"That's fine. I note that the letter from the minister"},{"t":9172,"text":"says that they've requested more research and more causing and"},{"t":9176,"text":"more consultation. Is there an indication of who would take"},{"t":9180,"text":"on that work and those costs is implication that the"},{"t":9183,"text":"city of Victoria and the districts of San Etch is"},{"t":9186,"text":"doing that work? Or is the implication that the province"},{"t":9189,"text":"does that work, noting that the citizens assembly is permanently"},{"t":9192,"text":"disbanded. Mr. Kingsley? Uh, three mayor, it's not exactly clear"},{"t":9198,"text":"to me at this point what the province is trying"},{"t":9201,"text":"to specify here. There's some language in the letter that"},{"t":9205,"text":"seems to at least suggest that we would undertake some"},{"t":9208,"text":"work. And then the other places where it seems that"},{"t":9210,"text":"they would undertake work themselves. So at this point, it's"},{"t":9214,"text":"not a hundred percent clear to us who exactly would"},{"t":9216,"text":"do what in terms of what they've outlined as next"},{"t":9219,"text":"steps. That seems to be a theme. Uh, do we"},{"t":9222,"text":"currently have budget and capacity to undertake this level of"},{"t":9225,"text":"costing and researching consultation? Excuse me. Through you mayor, not"},{"t":9230,"text":"at the moment, no. If Council wished us to pursue"},{"t":9234,"text":"that direction as noted in the report, we would likely"},{"t":9236,"text":"have to be looking to secure the resources necessary to"},{"t":9238,"text":"do so. And this is maybe a, thank you for"},{"t":9241,"text":"that. Maybe a bit of an unfair question. I'll put"},{"t":9243,"text":"it to staff or maybe to the mayor, but what"},{"t":9245,"text":"was the point of the citizens assembly. I think that's"},{"t":9251,"text":"probably not a question that staff should be required to"},{"t":9254,"text":"ask. But, um, certainly, um, my understanding of the purpose"},{"t":9259,"text":"of the citizen's assembly was to put a fairly rigorous"},{"t":9262,"text":"analysis research and discussion with the help of a variety"},{"t":9267,"text":"of different experts and as well as the Citizen representatives"},{"t":9274,"text":"to look at, if I believe the expression that brings"},{"t":9277,"text":"was the pros and cons of amalgamation for both municipalities."},{"t":9281,"text":"And so they were charged with looking at what would"},{"t":9283,"text":"be possible and positive and what would be possible and"},{"t":9286,"text":"perhaps more negative. Uh, and to conclude with a recommendation,"},{"t":9290,"text":"if they could conclude with a recommendation to both municipalities"},{"t":9294,"text":"as to what the next steps would be and that"},{"t":9297,"text":"would be the outcome of placing something on the ballot"},{"t":9300,"text":"that seeks further direction on whether or not the interest"},{"t":9303,"text":"in merging the two municipalities, uh, there are certainly, I"},{"t":9306,"text":"would say, um, a high degree of expectation that whatever"},{"t":9309,"text":"they resolved, uh, would have been very thorough in its"},{"t":9313,"text":"research and analysis and that it would result in some"},{"t":9315,"text":"recommendation that should be, uh, taken very seriously and respectfully"},{"t":9321,"text":"and that the two municipalities within determine next steps. It"},{"t":9326,"text":"is my understanding that the citizens'assembly was assured and counted"},{"t":9329,"text":"on the fact that should they have made a recommendation"},{"t":9333,"text":"that both municipalities would place that recommendation on a ballot"},{"t":9337,"text":"should that be the next logical step? Okay. Thanks Mayor."},{"t":9341,"text":"I'll have a referral motion later when it comes to"},{"t":9343,"text":"it. Okay. Very good. Uh, Councillor Hammond with questions. Thanks"},{"t":9349,"text":"Mayor. Um, I've got some pretty simple questions. Um, what"},{"t":9354,"text":"happens if we vote this down. Well, that's an interesting"},{"t":9360,"text":"question for both staff and council. I would suggest that,"},{"t":9364,"text":"um. If either or both rather, I think it would"},{"t":9368,"text":"have to be both. The second one is contingent on"},{"t":9371,"text":"the first, obviously. But if the first one is rejected,"},{"t":9375,"text":"then I suspect my interpretation of that would be nothing"},{"t":9378,"text":"would happen. And there would be nothing on the fall"},{"t":9380,"text":"ballot with regard to a merge or question. Mr. Kingsley,"},{"t":9385,"text":"would you agree with that. Through your mayor essentially, yes,"},{"t":9388,"text":"we would, uh, part of the intention of having the"},{"t":9391,"text":"support in front of Council is we are in a"},{"t":9393,"text":"place where we feel we need further direction from Council"},{"t":9395,"text":"on how it wishes to proceed, particularly with, um, in"},{"t":9400,"text":"regards to the upcoming election and the ballot. Right. Councillor"},{"t":9404,"text":"Hammond. Thanks. And so if let's say this is voted"},{"t":9409,"text":"down, presumably Council can then say we want to work"},{"t":9413,"text":"with the province to come up with a binding question."},{"t":9417,"text":"Would that be correct? Ms. Kingsley. Three, Mayor. That's certainly"},{"t":9422,"text":"a plausible alternative that Council could direct us to do."},{"t":9425,"text":"The province at least did lay out in the letter"},{"t":9428,"text":"what broadly speaking the steps that they were looking for"},{"t":9431,"text":"in order to be comfortable authorizing a question at some"},{"t":9434,"text":"time in the future. So in a nutshell, yes. Councillor"},{"t":9438,"text":"Henman, if number one is not supported. Number two becomes"},{"t":9442,"text":"redundant. And then we would need to provide some other"},{"t":9445,"text":"direction to staff. Okay. And this might be my last"},{"t":9450,"text":"question, Mayor, but, um, are we able to, between now"},{"t":9455,"text":"and a reasonable time to put this, or to pray"},{"t":9458,"text":"this for the ballot, are we able to tell the"},{"t":9460,"text":"province that we will only accept a binding question. I"},{"t":9465,"text":"think there's two parts of that question if I understood"},{"t":9467,"text":"them. One is the technical aspect of how much time"},{"t":9470,"text":"is needed by staff to actually prepare any question for"},{"t":9474,"text":"this false ballots. Walter and that part to Mr. Kingsley?"},{"t":9477,"text":"Through Ymir just focusing on that question posed. We noted"},{"t":9483,"text":"in the report that we believe it's unlikely given what"},{"t":9486,"text":"we, given the conditions that they've laid out and just"},{"t":9489,"text":"given how late we are in the timeline. We think"},{"t":9491,"text":"it's extremely unlikely that we would be able to fulfill"},{"t":9493,"text":"those conditions in time for the 2026. General local election."},{"t":9498,"text":"It is possible that it could be fulfilled for sometime"},{"t":9501,"text":"between this election and the next or possibly in the"},{"t":9504,"text":"future. Yeah. Just to add to that, Councillor, I think"},{"t":9507,"text":"it's fairly clear the minister's letter that the expectations that"},{"t":9511,"text":"have been set out around the work that would be"},{"t":9513,"text":"required in order to enable the minister to endorse a"},{"t":9518,"text":"quote binding question. It would be impossible to complete that"},{"t":9522,"text":"in time for 2026. The question remains live, whether it"},{"t":9526,"text":"was even possible for 2030, but it's certainly not for"},{"t":9529,"text":"2026. Thanks very much, Mayor. The other questions, Gardner. Also,"},{"t":9538,"text":"if the delay doesn't have to be 2020, 30, it"},{"t":9541,"text":"could be earlier. That's not a question, Councillor Grodner. Is"},{"t":9545,"text":"it required? No, is that not possible? Sorry. Uh, you"},{"t":9549,"text":"mean, could it be later than 2030? Absolutely. Well, we"},{"t":9551,"text":"did a pool referendum. Yes. It could be at any"},{"t":9553,"text":"point. The question is tied, I suppose mechanically to an"},{"t":9559,"text":"election. And so if there were, for example, a by"},{"t":9562,"text":"- election for some reason, I suppose it could be"},{"t":9564,"text":"tied to that, uh, other than that, it would have"},{"t":9566,"text":"to be with a regular election. So you're looking at"},{"t":9568,"text":"cycles of four years, unless there's a by - election"},{"t":9571,"text":"for some reason. Any other questions. Councillor Dell. Uh, thank"},{"t":9581,"text":"you. Through the mayor, um. The province outlined a couple"},{"t":9587,"text":"of pieces of information that they would want to have."},{"t":9590,"text":"I would just like to pull them up quickly. They"},{"t":9597,"text":"want more detailed analysis of financial implications. Transition, considerations and"},{"t":9602,"text":"service impacts. Is that all that we know from the"},{"t":9604,"text":"province on what else they're looking for? Do we have"},{"t":9607,"text":"any other specific information from other channels. Mr. Kingsley. Uh,"},{"t":9613,"text":"three mirrored that generally speaking is all we really know"},{"t":9616,"text":"right now are those. They are broad areas of information"},{"t":9619,"text":"that the province feels more information is needed. I would"},{"t":9623,"text":"just point out Councillor Delvean, in addition, they have identified"},{"t":9626,"text":"a duty to consult with the First Nations. In addition"},{"t":9629,"text":"to what you described. Okay. Thank you. Um, thank you."},{"t":9633,"text":"Through the mayor, the minister also was not super supportive"},{"t":9637,"text":"of the question on the, on the page here. Did"},{"t":9641,"text":"the minister provide any other recommended questions or do we"},{"t":9644,"text":"just know from the letter that this is not really"},{"t":9646,"text":"the question that they support. You mayor, the ministry did"},{"t":9650,"text":"not provide any suggestions on questions to staff. Can't speak"},{"t":9655,"text":"for whether there were any suggestions that came that happened"},{"t":9658,"text":"at the mayor's level or not. The answer that would"},{"t":9660,"text":"be no. There were no other suggestions made. Okay. Thank"},{"t":9665,"text":"you. Um, one of the, I have a number of"},{"t":9669,"text":"questions. What was we talked about whether the province would"},{"t":9673,"text":"pay for this work or whether they would lead this"},{"t":9675,"text":"work? Was there any thoughts on who would mediate this"},{"t":9678,"text":"work when disagreements occur? Or is that something that either"},{"t":9682,"text":"the citizens assembly commented on or the minister has commented"},{"t":9688,"text":"on on like just actual disagreements between Victoria and Santa"},{"t":9692,"text":"John on things like finances or whatnot? How would that"},{"t":9694,"text":"work. Through you, Mayor, the terms of reference did include"},{"t":9700,"text":"a conflict. Conflicts or resolutions thereof in terms of the"},{"t":9706,"text":"assembly and its operations in the event that either party"},{"t":9709,"text":"had serious concerns. Nothing arose where either party reached to"},{"t":9715,"text":"those clauses. So during the operations of the assembly. And"},{"t":9720,"text":"then I would also add if at no point the"},{"t":9723,"text":"province was made aware of the assembly's operations and was"},{"t":9726,"text":"invited by the assembly chair all throughout the process. And"},{"t":9728,"text":"at no time did the province ever express to any"},{"t":9731,"text":"of the parties to my knowledge that they saw any"},{"t":9734,"text":"serious deficiencies or issues or they had any serious disagreements"},{"t":9738,"text":"with the proceeding or the mandate or anything thereof. Okay."},{"t":9744,"text":"Thank you. I didn't get to chance to reread the"},{"t":9747,"text":"report this week's and preparation, unfortunately. I just have a"},{"t":9750,"text":"bit of a theoretical question. I'm not sure who's best"},{"t":9752,"text":"to answer it through the mayor. What do the citizen"},{"t":9755,"text":"assembly recommend about. Possibly renaming a joint municipality. Through the"},{"t":9763,"text":"mayor? They did actually not make a recommendation. They were"},{"t":9766,"text":"specifically asked not to to just focus on the just,"},{"t":9770,"text":"you know, shared interests, shared values and everything along those"},{"t":9772,"text":"lines. And that that would be something that would happen."},{"t":9775,"text":"Pending the result of a binding referendum if approved. Okay."},{"t":9779,"text":"Great. That, that, that shows my point. Thank you. Um,"},{"t":9783,"text":"I. Think that's it for questions. I'll definitely have comments"},{"t":9786,"text":"and would be ready to move this. But. Your questions."},{"t":9793,"text":"Are Thompson. Thanks. Uh, just wanted to ask about the"},{"t":9798,"text":"legislation under which, uh, I guess the whole thing is,"},{"t":9804,"text":"um, supposed to take place. Um, and, uh, my understanding"},{"t":9811,"text":"from looking at the local government act and the Community"},{"t":9814,"text":"Charter is that it's Section 279 of the Community Charter"},{"t":9818,"text":"and Section 4, the local government act. Have I got"},{"t":9821,"text":"those right. To the Mary, yes, that's correct. Okay. Thanks."},{"t":9827,"text":"Um, and is the word binding referendum or binding vote"},{"t":9831,"text":"or any word binding something used in any of that."},{"t":9836,"text":"Legislation. Mr. Kingsley. Through your non - specifically no, we"},{"t":9845,"text":"noted in the staff report the process through which, um,"},{"t":9850,"text":"my understanding of the use of binding in this context."},{"t":9854,"text":"Is undertaken. And that, that is a process that the"},{"t":9856,"text":"province undertakes and they, they issue and order us to"},{"t":9860,"text":"do a referendum. Looking at the Community charter and the"},{"t":9864,"text":"local government act, those tools are there specifically for looking"},{"t":9867,"text":"at the Community Charter. That is there for Council. It"},{"t":9871,"text":"outlines council's discretion to see community opinion at any time"},{"t":9874,"text":"in any way inform that Council deems relevant or most"},{"t":9878,"text":"appropriate, including an Ascend vote. And that's, that's the specificity"},{"t":9883,"text":"in the local government act. So if Council directed us"},{"t":9885,"text":"at any time to see Community Opinion through an Ascent"},{"t":9888,"text":"vote, we would follow the process for Ascent Voting outlined"},{"t":9892,"text":"in the local government act to seek that. But as"},{"t":9894,"text":"for as outlined in the Community Charter Council requesting staff"},{"t":9900,"text":"to seek Community opinion on any issue in no way"},{"t":9902,"text":"obligates counsel to undertake any action to implement whatever the"},{"t":9907,"text":"result of that vote would be. Okay. Thanks for that."},{"t":9911,"text":"And could actually Council implement amalgamation or is it entirely"},{"t":9916,"text":"a decision of either the minister or the provincial government?"},{"t":9922,"text":"Through the merits entirely a decision of the provincial government"},{"t":9925,"text":"because it requires a cabinet order. Okay. And I think"},{"t":9929,"text":"it refers to the issuance of letters patent. Uh, for"},{"t":9932,"text":"a new, um, a new municipality. Is that come through"},{"t":9935,"text":"the ordering Council. To the mayor that is correct? Letters"},{"t":9939,"text":"patent is a, Oh, I see. Thanks no further questions."},{"t":9943,"text":"Any other questions Councillor Gardona. Sorry. A few more questions."},{"t":9947,"text":"Is there any process by which this is since assembly"},{"t":9951,"text":"could be recalled to do additional work. Mr. Kingsley. Not"},{"t":9956,"text":"any process through you, Mayor, not any way that we"},{"t":9960,"text":"are currently aware of in the terms of reference that"},{"t":9962,"text":"we had, uh, that of course doesn't preclude the possibility"},{"t":9967,"text":"that Council could give us direction to try and reactivate"},{"t":9970,"text":"that process. But there's nothing that we could rely on"},{"t":9972,"text":"to legally obligated to continue to my knowledge. So if"},{"t":9975,"text":"there were to be additional research and consultation, what would"},{"t":9979,"text":"be, how would we possibly ensure continuity of that work?"},{"t":9984,"text":"Because a different government or entity would then be picking"},{"t":9986,"text":"up the baton that was left by the assembly. When"},{"t":9995,"text":"you have a mic, that's okay. Yes. Make some technical"},{"t":9998,"text":"issues this morning. Apologies, marriage. There's some problems with the"},{"t":10003,"text":"mic again. Um, if I understood the question as for"},{"t":10008,"text":"continuity, I think it would depend on why that those"},{"t":10013,"text":"activities would be continuing. But again. I think it really"},{"t":10016,"text":"depends on the goal why council would want us to,"},{"t":10020,"text":"in any way, try and seek those activities to continue."},{"t":10023,"text":"As the report outlines, the province has complete discretion over"},{"t":10028,"text":"whether or not to restructure local governments. It could at"},{"t":10031,"text":"any time without any process directs an order municipalities to"},{"t":10036,"text":"undertake a referendum to do so. Or I'm not aware"},{"t":10039,"text":"of anything necessarily precluding them from changing legislation if they"},{"t":10043,"text":"wish. And just doing it themselves without municipal involvement at"},{"t":10046,"text":"all. Okay. Is there precedents for non - binding amalgamation"},{"t":10051,"text":"referendum in this province. Yes. Many. In recent times at"},{"t":10059,"text":"least through the mayor, I believe there is examples of"},{"t":10063,"text":"it. Um, I think the last amalgamation that occurred of"},{"t":10066,"text":"Abbotsford in the 90s actually had some community opinion questions"},{"t":10071,"text":"that led to an official one later on. Worst more"},{"t":10075,"text":"recently actually, uh, and quite recently, there's the, been the"},{"t":10079,"text":"emailgamation of Okanagan Falls with its surrounding neighbourhoods, uh, which"},{"t":10083,"text":"is slightly different, but, uh, certainly there have been a"},{"t":10085,"text":"number of, I guess what you would call Community Opinion"},{"t":10089,"text":"questions posed over the last number of years throughout the"},{"t":10091,"text":"province? So then I guess the question is, why are"},{"t":10094,"text":"some of these referenda binding and others not. Mr. Kingsley."},{"t":10099,"text":"Through you mayor the distinction would really be the provincial"},{"t":10101,"text":"government. Yes. Okay. And just one last question for me."},{"t":10104,"text":"What is the difference someone asking you? What's the difference"},{"t":10105,"text":"between this potential referendum and the crystal pool borrowing referendum?"},{"t":10110,"text":"How do they differ. Mr. Kingsley. Uh, they differ quite"},{"t":10116,"text":"largely in the sense that the crystal pool referendum was"},{"t":10120,"text":"a process laid out in legislation under which if council"},{"t":10123,"text":"wished to borrow and gain authorization to adopt a bylaw,"},{"t":10129,"text":"it had to be done in that manner as specified"},{"t":10132,"text":"in the, in the legislation. This, the difference this, is"},{"t":10137,"text":"that the municipality, I guess, sorry, if I back up"},{"t":10140,"text":"a bit in the previous example with crystal pool, the"},{"t":10143,"text":"municipality can actually initiate that. And it does not need"},{"t":10146,"text":"any provincial authority. To initiate it to begin it. In"},{"t":10151,"text":"this example, the province is completely the authority that has"},{"t":10156,"text":"discretion over whether this takes place or not, including the"},{"t":10159,"text":"process that it wishes any other parties other than a"},{"t":10164,"text":"self - or, including itself to follow to grant that."},{"t":10167,"text":"I mean, and sorry, there is one follow - up."},{"t":10169,"text":"And given that we're not the decision maker here, is"},{"t":10171,"text":"there any reason that this referendum couldn't be hosted as"},{"t":10174,"text":"part of a provincial election. Since there, the decision maker."},{"t":10179,"text":"Why couldn't this be on a provincial ballot. King? Uh,"},{"t":10184,"text":"three, Mayor, I'm not aware of the province ever doing"},{"t":10186,"text":"it in that way before, and perhaps Mr. Nichols has,"},{"t":10190,"text":"can fill in any information, if you recall, ever knowing"},{"t":10192,"text":"the province doing it that way before, we, we only"},{"t":10195,"text":"have the information before us, which is the past examples"},{"t":10198,"text":"we have, particularly the most recent past examples where the"},{"t":10201,"text":"province did authorize a referendum. Through the mayor, it's never"},{"t":10208,"text":"been done before. I don't want to say if it's"},{"t":10210,"text":"possible or not because it hasn't been done before and"},{"t":10213,"text":"have not had any discussions with the province around something"},{"t":10215,"text":"like that. I do know that the local government act"},{"t":10218,"text":"is very specific that, um, that there must be a"},{"t":10222,"text":"vote in each municipality. So, you know, maybe it's possible,"},{"t":10226,"text":"but there would have to be, it'd be a bit"},{"t":10227,"text":"complicated when you look at provincial writings versus municipal boundaries"},{"t":10231,"text":"and things like that. That's just my first thought in"},{"t":10233,"text":"my head. Right. The writings, the bountings boundaries, the writings"},{"t":10236,"text":"probably don't line up. Okay. I'll leave my questions there."},{"t":10239,"text":"Thanks, Mayor. Any other questions. Just checking online. Nope. All"},{"t":10245,"text":"right. I am going to move the two recommendations on"},{"t":10250,"text":"the screen and see if there is a seconder. Thank"},{"t":10254,"text":"you, Councillor Coleman for seconding that. I'm also keenly aware"},{"t":10258,"text":"that it is eight minutes until our lunch break. And"},{"t":10261,"text":"I suspect that this is going to take a significantly"},{"t":10263,"text":"longer period of time than eight minutes. So I'm going"},{"t":10266,"text":"to suggest that I'm going to make some preliminary comments"},{"t":10269,"text":"on why I think that these are the appropriate recommendations"},{"t":10272,"text":"to MUPAS forward. But I may or may not be"},{"t":10276,"text":"finished by that time or I may reserve the right"},{"t":10279,"text":"to make some concluding comments after everyone else speaks. So"},{"t":10286,"text":"from my perspective, this is a fairly straightforward issue. Uh,"},{"t":10291,"text":"with regard to these particular recommendations. It is not about"},{"t":10294,"text":"the outcome of a referendum or a community question or"},{"t":10300,"text":"whatever you want to call it, uh, on the amalgamation"},{"t":10302,"text":"of Senich and Victoria. This for me is entirely about"},{"t":10308,"text":"Victoria City Council's commitment to the public and to the"},{"t":10312,"text":"Citizens Assembly that should they arrive at a recommendation that"},{"t":10317,"text":"required endorsement by the public that we would place a"},{"t":10321,"text":"question on the next available Civic election ballot. These citizens'assembly"},{"t":10327,"text":"did, in my view, a remarkable amount of work. There"},{"t":10331,"text":"are hundreds. In fact, that was ins of pages of"},{"t":10334,"text":"materials available in the public domain. They had an independent"},{"t":10338,"text":"technical advisory committee that worked with them. Uh, they had"},{"t":10342,"text":"a very eclectic group of 48 people who comprised the"},{"t":10346,"text":"assembly itself, uh, who were selected from both Senich and"},{"t":10350,"text":"Victoria looking at demographics, geography, backgrounds, representation, a whole host"},{"t":10356,"text":"of thresholds in order to make it a truly eclectic"},{"t":10359,"text":"group of people that as much as any group can"},{"t":10362,"text":"possibly be. I was representative of the two communities. Slightly"},{"t":10366,"text":"more of whom came from Sanich than Victoria representing the"},{"t":10369,"text":"split in our existing populations. As a result of all"},{"t":10373,"text":"of that work, the assembly remarkably, and I will say"},{"t":10377,"text":"I was stunned that they came up with a recommendation"},{"t":10380,"text":"that suggested that the advantages to both municipalities would be"},{"t":10385,"text":"enhanced if they were in fact one. I've often told"},{"t":10390,"text":"that humorous tale that when, uh, asked to attend their"},{"t":10393,"text":"announcement at the end of their process, uh, I did"},{"t":10396,"text":"so having no idea what they were going to recommend"},{"t":10400,"text":"because a mayor Murdoch and I were very clear and"},{"t":10403,"text":"having absolutely no influence over the process whatsoever. Uh, we"},{"t":10407,"text":"went to their opening meeting, wished them well and then"},{"t":10410,"text":"disappeared. And at the end, when I was asked to"},{"t":10413,"text":"attend and the announcement was made, my first comment to"},{"t":10416,"text":"the media was, hmm, it never occurred to me that"},{"t":10419,"text":"when I ran for mayor of Victoria that I would"},{"t":10422,"text":"be the answer to a trivia question, who was the"},{"t":10424,"text":"last mayor of the City of Victoria. Everyone who was"},{"t":10429,"text":"outside the assembly was done. That being said, the depth"},{"t":10434,"text":"of the analysis research conversation debate. And it was in"},{"t":10438,"text":"fact a significant debate, as I understand it, that led"},{"t":10442,"text":"to the recommendation is remarkable. And I think it needs"},{"t":10446,"text":"to be respected. Council made a commitment to the public"},{"t":10452,"text":"if there is a recommendation that recommendation will be placed"},{"t":10455,"text":"on the next available civic ballot. The citizens'assembly made a"},{"t":10460,"text":"recommendation. The next available civic ballot is October 17th. In"},{"t":10467,"text":"my view, we have no choice but to honour that"},{"t":10470,"text":"commitment. And to respect the work and the citizens. Who"},{"t":10475,"text":"now have an opportunity to express their views on what"},{"t":10478,"text":"happens next. The fact that the province has changed the"},{"t":10483,"text":"terms during the process does not, in my view, undermine"},{"t":10489,"text":"our commitment to the public or to the assembly. Should"},{"t":10493,"text":"the province wish to have additional research consultation engagement analysis,"},{"t":10500,"text":"whatever. That is indeed up to them as they are"},{"t":10504,"text":"the final decision makers. Meanwhile, we have an obligation to"},{"t":10509,"text":"the public. If the province wishes to extend this process,"},{"t":10513,"text":"they can do so. I would urge them to do"},{"t":10516,"text":"so. Understanding that it is their decision, their work. And"},{"t":10521,"text":"their costs. Nothing in the position of the province to"},{"t":10526,"text":"date, in my view, undermines councils, commitment to the public."},{"t":10532,"text":"Our staff have asked for direction on two things. A"},{"t":10536,"text":"question. And whether or not there is attendant information that"},{"t":10540,"text":"we wish to provide the public. These two recommendations answer"},{"t":10545,"text":"those questions. In my view, Council must say yes. Coleman,"},{"t":10555,"text":"do you wish to begin or show you we wait"},{"t":10556,"text":"until after lunch? Seven lunch. Okay. When we return after"},{"t":10559,"text":"lunch, Councillor Coleman will speak as a seconder. And then"},{"t":10562,"text":"we will open the floor. We'll be back at one"},{"t":10566,"text":"o'clock."},{"t":10765,"text":"Good afternoon and welcome back to the June 25th meeting"},{"t":10768,"text":"of Victoria City Council's Committee of the Whole. Before we"},{"t":10771,"text":"took our lunch break, we had begun our deliberations on"},{"t":10774,"text":"item G3. This is the Victoria Senich Amalgamation staff report"},{"t":10779,"text":"and attendant motions. All three of which you can see"},{"t":10783,"text":"on the screen will deal first with the motions that"},{"t":10787,"text":"have come as a result of the questions of staff,"},{"t":10791,"text":"report at the end. I had moved the two motions,"},{"t":10795,"text":"Councillor Coleman had second to them. I made some remarks"},{"t":10797,"text":"to begin. I still have some time left should I"},{"t":10800,"text":"wish to add anything at the end, but I will"},{"t":10802,"text":"now turn it over to Councillor Coleman as the seconder."},{"t":10805,"text":"Thank you, your worship. I speak a lot. About the"},{"t":10811,"text":"need as we build communities for both passion to make"},{"t":10815,"text":"change and patience to play the long game. On this"},{"t":10819,"text":"topic, I am still passionate about us. Finding some form"},{"t":10825,"text":"of amalgamation that makes the system work perfectly. I will"},{"t":10829,"text":"admit, though, after many years, my patience is running a"},{"t":10831,"text":"bit thin. I was first elected in 1996 and almost"},{"t":10837,"text":"immediately Councillor Helen Hughes and I got struck off certain"},{"t":10842,"text":"Christmas card lists because we thought there were too many"},{"t":10845,"text":"municipalities. In those days. It tended to be a discussion"},{"t":10851,"text":"between the Bobby report versus the UDI report. And that"},{"t":10856,"text":"was, the broader than those discussions to carry the date."},{"t":10862,"text":"That did change over time, and I know the mayor"},{"t":10865,"text":"actually formed the question that was put in front of"},{"t":10869,"text":"the publics, many municipalities here in 2014. And that was"},{"t":10874,"text":"about the desire for people to find a way to"},{"t":10877,"text":"concentrate municipal ordinance or municipal governance. And it was broadly"},{"t":10883,"text":"accepted in most of the communities, I think old, but"},{"t":10887,"text":"one, actually, that asked the question. We then asked the"},{"t":10891,"text":"second question in 2018, which was about funding the process"},{"t":10895,"text":"going forward. And that was a tripartite funding model between"},{"t":10899,"text":"Sanitch, Victoria, and the province. We now have that report"},{"t":10905,"text":"back. It's taken eight years. Thank you to the Citizens"},{"t":10908,"text":"Assembly for doing great work in it. And I think"},{"t":10912,"text":"the expectation from everybody was that we would move to"},{"t":10917,"text":"a question, a declarative question, whether it was binding or"},{"t":10920,"text":"not, that would be set us on a new trajectory."},{"t":10926,"text":"Or choose not to go in that path. The citizen's"},{"t":10929,"text":"assembly did choose to make a, not a unanimous statement,"},{"t":10932,"text":"but of fairly strong majority. And I sat in on"},{"t":10937,"text":"a number of their meetings as an observer only. People"},{"t":10941,"text":"ask me questions and I would say, I can't answer."},{"t":10945,"text":"I'm here to observe only. It was fascinating to see"},{"t":10949,"text":"the number on the final day, the number of citizens,"},{"t":10953,"text":"particularly from Sanich, who said we started off came to"},{"t":10955,"text":"me at that point and said, we started off being"},{"t":10959,"text":"leery or opposed to this. And in the discussions we've"},{"t":10962,"text":"gone through and the eight full day workshops and the"},{"t":10966,"text":"research we had to do. We've come to a position"},{"t":10968,"text":"that we actually think moving forward for future generations. Coming"},{"t":10974,"text":"together is a better option. Will there be rough patches"},{"t":10977,"text":"in it? Yes. But I recognise that wasn't everybody's position"},{"t":10984,"text":"on it, but I think the mayor was quite right"},{"t":10987,"text":"when she said we haven't duty to the citizen's assembly"},{"t":10991,"text":"to carry on with what they expect. We think that"},{"t":10996,"text":"this is a modern discussion. I will point out that"},{"t":10999,"text":"the old board of trade, before we had a chamber"},{"t":11003,"text":"of commerce, petitioned for then government to have fewer municipalities."},{"t":11011,"text":"Over the years, a series of provincial governments have shied"},{"t":11017,"text":"away from the question. Um, this is not new. It"},{"t":11021,"text":"is frustrating. As I said. The patient's level in me"},{"t":11025,"text":"is diminishing. But I realised that it is an important"},{"t":11030,"text":"question, and it does need to be dealt with carefully."},{"t":11035,"text":"We have been approached by a number of people who"},{"t":11038,"text":"are in favor of amalgamation saying. We are so frustrated"},{"t":11041,"text":"we don't think you should put the question to the"},{"t":11043,"text":"publics. I think, and this is a false game. I"},{"t":11048,"text":"think that's the wrong direction. Partly because it will send"},{"t":11052,"text":"a different message to another group. If we choose to"},{"t":11056,"text":"now back away from asking a question, there will be"},{"t":11059,"text":"people who will say, you see Victoria's not really interested."},{"t":11062,"text":"It becomes its own narrative. And the proof of that"},{"t":11066,"text":"is the discussion we now have about the amalgamation process,"},{"t":11070,"text":"the superamelgamation process in Quebec. 1995 was the new liberal"},{"t":11076,"text":"government was forced into following up on a campaign promise."},{"t":11082,"text":"And they did a super amalgamation of 75 municipalities, not"},{"t":11086,"text":"all into one entity, but into a number of them."},{"t":11089,"text":"And gave an 18 - month opt - out clause."},{"t":11093,"text":"Seventeen of those municipalities chose after 18 months to pull"},{"t":11096,"text":"back out. And that became the discussion point. Nobody talked"},{"t":11100,"text":"about the 58 communities that chose to stay together. Because"},{"t":11105,"text":"they saw some worth in this. We have gone through"},{"t":11109,"text":"a fair deliberation. As I say, I've been, um, passionate"},{"t":11113,"text":"on this topic for many years and my patients may"},{"t":11116,"text":"be running out. But I also recognise that patients is"},{"t":11119,"text":"a virtue. And so I have to remind myself that"},{"t":11123,"text":"this is about playing the long game. I'm disappointed that"},{"t":11127,"text":"it's not a binding question. But I do think we"},{"t":11130,"text":"need to move the process forward. So I support number"},{"t":11134,"text":"one in this motion. Number two is I also support,"},{"t":11139,"text":"because I think the city shouldn't be as a body"},{"t":11143,"text":"providing any information beyond what the citizens'assembly provided. But I"},{"t":11148,"text":"think that that doesn't constrain us as individual members of"},{"t":11152,"text":"council whether we choose to run or not. If you"},{"t":11157,"text":"are passionate about it, and I am, I will go"},{"t":11159,"text":"out and talk to people if they wish and say,"},{"t":11162,"text":"this is why I think it's positive. I would expect"},{"t":11163,"text":"people who are hesitant to also share their opinions individually."},{"t":11168,"text":"And if anybody is opposed to it, they should also"},{"t":11171,"text":"speak up. But I think that this is absolutely the"},{"t":11176,"text":"right process to move forward in honour of what the"},{"t":11179,"text":"citizens assembly went through, because I don't think it was"},{"t":11183,"text":"easy for them. And they made. A very thoughtful decision,"},{"t":11188,"text":"not considering themselves, but almost to a person, as I"},{"t":11191,"text":"talked to them, talking about their children, grandchildren and great"},{"t":11195,"text":"- grandchildren. What this means to the future of the"},{"t":11197,"text":"area. So I fully support this. Thank you. Thank you"},{"t":11201,"text":"Councillor Gardner and Councillor Cardona. Thank you. Staff, could you"},{"t":11205,"text":"get the slides ready. Amalgamation. I've been studying the Regions"},{"t":11211,"text":"amalgamation issue for 15 years. I'm familiar with the process"},{"t":11214,"text":"and how across the country amalgamation has sometimes been voluntary"},{"t":11219,"text":"and sometimes forced by provincial governments. What is before us"},{"t":11222,"text":"today is not the question of amalgamation. But the question"},{"t":11225,"text":"of process. Decades ago, the Provincial government defined a process"},{"t":11230,"text":"to be followed for municipal and local government amalgamation. This"},{"t":11234,"text":"process is defined within the Community Charter and the local"},{"t":11236,"text":"government act. The region's fragmented governments was on the people's"},{"t":11242,"text":"minds for decades, as we just heard. The Citizenry wanted"},{"t":11246,"text":"an independent review and assessment. Eight municipalities responded. And in"},{"t":11252,"text":"2014. Voters from eight municipalities put some type of amalgamation"},{"t":11257,"text":"question to ballot. Citizens and seven of these municipalities said"},{"t":11261,"text":"that they wanted a review. Only Oak baited not. In"},{"t":11265,"text":"2017, there were two significant reports which examined financial and"},{"t":11269,"text":"governance issues, namely the ventral government's capital integrated services and"},{"t":11273,"text":"governance initiative and the Senate governance review. The data was"},{"t":11277,"text":"there. Slide, please. In 2018, the municipalities of Sounded Victoria"},{"t":11283,"text":"respected the voices of their citizens and put a question"},{"t":11285,"text":"on the ballot seeking permission to create a citizen disassembly"},{"t":11288,"text":"to assess the matter. Then there was a delay, a"},{"t":11293,"text":"long delay of six years. In 2024, the assembly was"},{"t":11297,"text":"struck and spent many months assessing reports and debating issues."},{"t":11301,"text":"The MNP report done for the study found financial controls"},{"t":11306,"text":"and other administrative functions to be compatible and found no"},{"t":11309,"text":"barriers. The review demanded by the public years earlier was"},{"t":11313,"text":"completed. These volunteers did a great service and thank you"},{"t":11318,"text":"to them. Slide please. The committee of randomly selected residents"},{"t":11324,"text":"recommended that amalgamation creating a unified city would be the"},{"t":11327,"text":"best form of government for the two municipalities. The role"},{"t":11331,"text":"of the Citizens Assembly was not transition or recommendations of"},{"t":11334,"text":"the type of governance to lead a unified city. The"},{"t":11338,"text":"work had been done. The minister's request is just a"},{"t":11343,"text":"distraction. More months then passed. Minister Boyle's letter became only"},{"t":11349,"text":"public a few days ago. As a public prepares for"},{"t":11352,"text":"their suburb. Not much time left for people to really"},{"t":11357,"text":"speak out on this issue. We are told that 10"},{"t":11360,"text":"plus years of conversation is not enough. For her. The"},{"t":11365,"text":"public expectation and my expectation is a binding question. The"},{"t":11369,"text":"process leads to that, a binding question. The delays worked."},{"t":11375,"text":"Gone was the commitment expressed by the NDP leaders over"},{"t":11378,"text":"10 years to respect the public process, the public voice."},{"t":11382,"text":"In minister Boyle's letter and prohibition for bonding question or"},{"t":11386,"text":"a side step is a tactic to kill. Well, I"},{"t":11389,"text":"appreciate Mayor, your views on this matter as you stated"},{"t":11393,"text":"before lunch. I differ. Something that must be recognised as"},{"t":11396,"text":"a close ties of this council with the current provincial"},{"t":11399,"text":"government. What is before us today is a farce. It"},{"t":11403,"text":"is hard to know what is real and what has"},{"t":11405,"text":"been a long - term strategy to deny the public"},{"t":11407,"text":"view. The government of BC does not respect its own"},{"t":11411,"text":"policy. Did we residents realise that this would happen in"},{"t":11415,"text":"Canada. Governments silencing the public. Where his our democracy gone."},{"t":11422,"text":"The motion before us today is a game, a bad"},{"t":11424,"text":"game, created in response to action of a sad government"},{"t":11428,"text":"that is out of touch with the citizenry and shows"},{"t":11430,"text":"no respect for our established democratic processes. Ones that they"},{"t":11435,"text":"created. Let us pause, defeat the motion and bring back"},{"t":11439,"text":"a binding vote by 2030. I can't play this minister's"},{"t":11445,"text":"game, perhaps by 2030. We all have another minister. Thank"},{"t":11449,"text":"you, Mayor. Thank you very much Councillor Carino. Yes, Mayor,"},{"t":11455,"text":"I'm going to move a referral motion. Can we bring"},{"t":11458,"text":"the motion back up onto the screen. Which I've sent"},{"t":11462,"text":"to staff."},{"t":11472,"text":"There you go. Let's just take a sector read it."},{"t":11474,"text":"And I'll ask for a seconder."},{"t":11488,"text":"Okay, that seems clear. Is there a seconder for that?"},{"t":11495,"text":"Councillor Thompson is seconding that. Go ahead, Councillor Caridon. On"},{"t":11497,"text":"the motion to refer only. Thank you very much, Mayor."},{"t":11501,"text":"Much to say on this one. How much time do"},{"t":11502,"text":"I have, actually? Six and a half minutes. Having watched"},{"t":11507,"text":"all this unfold over the last several months, I think"},{"t":11509,"text":"that we are dealing with the proper mess. It's become"},{"t":11512,"text":"a proper mess. And when I think about how it's"},{"t":11516,"text":"become so messy, and going back to my line of"},{"t":11519,"text":"questioning earlier with staff, I think it's because there's been"},{"t":11522,"text":"far too much ambiguity throughout this entire process. It was"},{"t":11525,"text":"too unclear what the role of the Citizens Assembly was."},{"t":11529,"text":"And what their mandate was. It was too unclear what"},{"t":11533,"text":"our commitment was earlier in this term when we committed"},{"t":11536,"text":"notionally to holding a referendum. I think that the problem"},{"t":11539,"text":"is that all of the main players in this process"},{"t":11542,"text":"assumed we were dealing with a binding decision. I feel"},{"t":11546,"text":"very certain, and I'll read an email in a moment"},{"t":11550,"text":"that the citizens'assembly assumed that they were engaged in a"},{"t":11553,"text":"process to produce a binding outcome along the lines of"},{"t":11556,"text":"what happened in North Cowgin. Even though that one failed."},{"t":11560,"text":"It was a binding outcome. Likewise, when we discussed this"},{"t":11563,"text":"back in 2023, my assumption is that we were producing"},{"t":11567,"text":"a commitment. To hold a binding decision. I did not"},{"t":11571,"text":"sign up for committing to a temperature check. Because it's"},{"t":11575,"text":"my understanding that if the temperature check succeeds, first of"},{"t":11578,"text":"all, the lot of ambiguity about what happens after that."},{"t":11582,"text":"Uh, but it also probably requires a second referendum. A"},{"t":11587,"text":"binding one. So I'm thinking, what is the point of"},{"t":11590,"text":"holding two referenda, especially if the citizens'assembly has committed or"},{"t":11594,"text":"recommended that we hold a binding one? I think it's"},{"t":11597,"text":"become quite a mess here. That said, I think that"},{"t":11599,"text":"we are really between a rock and hard place. On"},{"t":11601,"text":"the one hand we've made a kind of commitment to"},{"t":11603,"text":"the public to say, we're going to put a ballot"},{"t":11605,"text":"question on the ballot in 2026. But that commitment, when"},{"t":11610,"text":"I think was predicated on the notion that it was"},{"t":11612,"text":"a binding decision. And then the province has clarified its"},{"t":11616,"text":"position. I don't agree with the position, but I do"},{"t":11619,"text":"acquiesce to it. And what the province is saying is"},{"t":11621,"text":"we're not ready to hold a binding referendum. We're not"},{"t":11624,"text":"ready to do this. There needs to be more research"},{"t":11625,"text":"and more consultation. Which in fact, I think is not"},{"t":11628,"text":"an unreasonable position. But what I believe should occur is"},{"t":11631,"text":"that the province should take that work on. And they"},{"t":11635,"text":"should undertake the consultation with the nations and other stakeholder"},{"t":11638,"text":"groups and rights holding groups. They should produce a costing"},{"t":11641,"text":"analysis. They should do more research. And take on the"},{"t":11644,"text":"cost of doing that. We certainly don't have the cost,"},{"t":11647,"text":"sorry, the budget or the capacity to do that work."},{"t":11649,"text":"That work would have to be done by the province."},{"t":11651,"text":"Put the ball into their court and let them undertake"},{"t":11654,"text":"that work and let us know when they feel comfortable"},{"t":11657,"text":"having the binding referendum that the citizens'assembly recommended. I would"},{"t":11662,"text":"like to read a bit of an email that I"},{"t":11664,"text":"got from a member of the Citizens Assembly who gave"},{"t":11667,"text":"me explicit permission to read this out. I won't read"},{"t":11669,"text":"his name. He's, he's welcome to reveal his identity in"},{"t":11673,"text":"his own way. But I will read this email very"},{"t":11675,"text":"quickly. I'm writing to express my disappointment and hearing that"},{"t":11678,"text":"the problems of BCU does not support a binding referendum"},{"t":11681,"text":"on the question of whether the City of Victoria and"},{"t":11684,"text":"the District of Santal Malgamate. As a member of the"},{"t":11686,"text":"Victoria San Citizens Assembly, whose 48 members carefully deliberated the"},{"t":11689,"text":"question of amalgamation. As you know, we arrived at a"},{"t":11692,"text":"majority consensus to recommend that the City Councils of Senate"},{"t":11695,"text":"and Victoria proceed with the referendum on amalgamation. The assembly"},{"t":11699,"text":"members heard from multiple speakers and information sources that included"},{"t":11702,"text":"representatives and municipal regional provincial government. We also heard from"},{"t":11705,"text":"experts on all forms of governance, experts in the field"},{"t":11708,"text":"of amalgamation, municipal staff, various individuals who are either pro"},{"t":11711,"text":"or anti - amalgamation. We asked a lot of questions."},{"t":11714,"text":"I feel that we receive truthful and candidancers. The assembly"},{"t":11717,"text":"process sought to take a truly representative cross - section"},{"t":11719,"text":"of citizens of San Dietro and provide them with the"},{"t":11722,"text":"information they needed to make an informed recommendation. We 48"},{"t":11725,"text":"took in all this information over a period of eight"},{"t":11728,"text":"full days and we spent hours discussing and occasionally strongly"},{"t":11730,"text":"debating the merits of all the information before us. And"},{"t":11733,"text":"all this time, the atmosphere was amazingly respectful and positive"},{"t":11736,"text":"in the end, and we were able to arrive at"},{"t":11737,"text":"a majority decision. Part of what made the work so"},{"t":11740,"text":"meaningful is that we believe we are working on something"},{"t":11743,"text":"important and we took it seriously. The gravity of the"},{"t":11745,"text":"fact that we were working on a recommendation that would"},{"t":11747,"text":"affect over 200, 000 people was not lost on us."},{"t":11749,"text":"My biggest disappointment in hearing of the minister's position was"},{"t":11752,"text":"at this fantastic tool of Representative Democracy, the Citizens Assembly"},{"t":11756,"text":"has effectively been rendered meaningless. The tragedy is not the"},{"t":11759,"text":"lost time and the money spent, it's the failure to"},{"t":11761,"text":"support a process that strengthens our democracy. Unfortunately, it is"},{"t":11765,"text":"unlikely that a non - binding referendum will create the"},{"t":11768,"text":"interest required for the voters to become invested in the"},{"t":11770,"text":"process. It is my sincere hope that the province can"},{"t":11773,"text":"be convinced to properly and in good faith support the"},{"t":11775,"text":"process and allow the citizens of both municipalities to vote"},{"t":11779,"text":"on the question in a serious matter through a binding"},{"t":11782,"text":"referendum. So I don't know if this person speaks for"},{"t":11786,"text":"all of the citizens assembly. I don't think that they"},{"t":11788,"text":"can claim to do so, but what I gather from"},{"t":11791,"text":"speaking with the person on the phone and reading the"},{"t":11792,"text":"email is that they themselves, the Citizen Assembly assumed that"},{"t":11795,"text":"they were part of a process to produce an outcome"},{"t":11798,"text":"that was meant to be binding. They are not, their"},{"t":11801,"text":"recommendation wasn't hold a non - binding referendum and let's"},{"t":11804,"text":"see what happens after that. The question was meant to"},{"t":11807,"text":"be binding. So to my mind, I either we must"},{"t":11811,"text":"ask a more accurate question. Something along the lines of,"},{"t":11815,"text":"do you support the province doing additional research? Or we"},{"t":11818,"text":"have to defer this work to the province to do"},{"t":11820,"text":"that work themselves. Because as it stands now, I think"},{"t":11824,"text":"it's going to confuse. The public. I think it's going"},{"t":11827,"text":"to mislead voters. And I think it undermines the process"},{"t":11830,"text":"to undertake what a lot of people will not understand"},{"t":11833,"text":"is a non - binding vote. I think that distinction"},{"t":11837,"text":"will be lost on a lot of voters. I think"},{"t":11838,"text":"a lot of people will go to the polls if"},{"t":11840,"text":"they see that question. Do you support the standards and"},{"t":11841,"text":"Victoria becoming one municipality? They're going to assume that their"},{"t":11844,"text":"voice mean something. But in effect, it won it. If"},{"t":11847,"text":"the yes outcome, it would just mean that some government"},{"t":11850,"text":"is required to do additional research, but it would be"},{"t":11852,"text":"entirely ambiguous. Who would be actually responsible for doing that"},{"t":11856,"text":"research and consultation. I think that the CBC had it"},{"t":11859,"text":"right in their article yesterday when they said that the"},{"t":11861,"text":"province has put this matter quote on hold. In effect,"},{"t":11865,"text":"this process has already been put on hold. If this"},{"t":11868,"text":"is not a binding referendum, then the process is already"},{"t":11870,"text":"on hold. And if that is the case, I don't"},{"t":11873,"text":"see the value in a temperature check. That undermines the"},{"t":11877,"text":"process and gives a false sense of authority to the"},{"t":11880,"text":"voter, to voters. And misleads people. So I don't know"},{"t":11885,"text":"where the rest of council is on this, but for"},{"t":11887,"text":"me, I can't put my name behind something that I"},{"t":11889,"text":"feel like is misleading voters. I think that when we"},{"t":11892,"text":"need as a binding referendum, noting that I am very"},{"t":11895,"text":"neutral and ambivalent on the question of amalgamation, but I"},{"t":11897,"text":"think it's crucially important that we get the process right."},{"t":11900,"text":"And in this matter, we're not getting the process right."},{"t":11903,"text":"So eyes wide open. If this referral motion passes, the"},{"t":11907,"text":"question would not be on the ballot in Victoria. And"},{"t":11910,"text":"it would be in the hands of the province to"},{"t":11911,"text":"decide what comes next, to undertake the work that they"},{"t":11914,"text":"want to undertake, which is more research and consultation. If"},{"t":11918,"text":"they're able to do that prior to 2026, great. If"},{"t":11921,"text":"not, then the reality is we would probably be hosting"},{"t":11925,"text":"or holding a binding referendum in 2030. Which might end"},{"t":11930,"text":"up happening anyway. I don't know, because we would probably,"},{"t":11933,"text":"we're probably looking at two more referenda if my referral"},{"t":11936,"text":"motion fails and this goes ahead. So I'd rather cut"},{"t":11939,"text":"out the fat and go right to the binding question"},{"t":11941,"text":"as soon as possible. Thanks, Mayor. Thank you, Councillor Thompson"},{"t":11947,"text":"is the second hero. Thanks, Mayor. And those are a"},{"t":11949,"text":"lot of good points, and I won't, uh, I won't"},{"t":11951,"text":"repeat them. I would like to offer an amendment, though."},{"t":11957,"text":"And that would be. To add after additional work needed."},{"t":11967,"text":"Can I just have my own time to speak here?"},{"t":11969,"text":"Thanks. Where do you? Can I request that people not"},{"t":11974,"text":"interrupt my speaking. Yes, absolutely. Thank you. Let's see. Where"},{"t":11982,"text":"would you like to additional research and consultation be undertaken"},{"t":11986,"text":"by the province? And I would like to add in"},{"t":11988,"text":"there the specific wording that was in the minister's letter,"},{"t":11991,"text":"just so that it's really clear where that's coming from."},{"t":11998,"text":"So maybe to say, to add specifically as noted by"},{"t":12001,"text":"the minister. A more detailed analysis, and then that can"},{"t":12010,"text":"just be pasted in. If you don't have it handy,"},{"t":12020,"text":"I'll just read it out. Yeah, it's just, if you"},{"t":12022,"text":"could just read it out, that'll help. Let's see. More"},{"t":12023,"text":"detailed analysis of financial implications. Transition. Considerations."},{"t":12034,"text":"And service impacts. So service impacts. Service impacts."},{"t":12044,"text":"And also consultation with the First Nations."},{"t":12056,"text":"You've been a comma after that then? That's why some"},{"t":12059,"text":"of those are my day on. Your. Rocket. Yes, detailed"},{"t":12067,"text":"past tense. Right? All right, that seems clear. And that"},{"t":12072,"text":"is appropriate as an amendment to the motion to refer."},{"t":12075,"text":"Is there a seconder for that amendment. Scot - Siger,"},{"t":12079,"text":"donna. Go ahead, Councillor Thompson. On the amendment. I just"},{"t":12082,"text":"want to make it clear, if any of the public"},{"t":12085,"text":"are following along, um, where this is coming from, uh,"},{"t":12088,"text":"and I also want it to be really clear in"},{"t":12091,"text":"our letter to the, if this goes ahead in our"},{"t":12094,"text":"letter to the minister that, you know, you've identified these"},{"t":12097,"text":"needs. Um, we're not necessarily clear on which pieces of"},{"t":12102,"text":"financial transition and service impacts are needed, but presumably that's"},{"t":12107,"text":"known within the ministry. And so over to you. And"},{"t":12111,"text":"also I point out that we don't do the consultation"},{"t":12113,"text":"with First Nations. That's a responsibility of the crown. That's"},{"t":12119,"text":"it. Okay. Councillor Court on as the secondary of the"},{"t":12121,"text":"amendment. Yeah, I think it's, it's a good amendment that"},{"t":12124,"text":"makes it crystal clear that we are in a sense"},{"t":12127,"text":"agreeing with and deferring to the province in their desire"},{"t":12129,"text":"to have very specific kinds of additional consultation and information"},{"t":12134,"text":"and that they are welcome to undertake that work. On"},{"t":12139,"text":"the amendment, which is only the bolded language within the"},{"t":12141,"text":"motion to refer any further comments, Council Gardner. In the"},{"t":12148,"text":"process created by the government, the transition phase, the calculations"},{"t":12153,"text":"for that or the whole assessment is done. After the"},{"t":12155,"text":"binding question. And that's the whole interim, shall we say,"},{"t":12160,"text":"transition years when that is done. So our own objective"},{"t":12163,"text":"being here, but it's kind of, you know, defeats the"},{"t":12166,"text":"purpose of the legislation that exists and the purpose that"},{"t":12170,"text":"has already been defined by the government. So this is"},{"t":12174,"text":"essentially, let's think about this, another far, 10 or 15"},{"t":12177,"text":"years. That just stretches out all this extra work. The"},{"t":12182,"text":"citizen's assembly at this session. I know you, you mayor,"},{"t":12186,"text":"and I think Councillor Coleman and I attended and perhaps"},{"t":12188,"text":"a couple others when the City Assembly rendered its decision."},{"t":12193,"text":"They addressed to their responsibility to First Nations. At that"},{"t":12198,"text":"session. Thank you. So the amendment isn't needed just adds"},{"t":12202,"text":"more reason for the rationale for the minister to delay"},{"t":12206,"text":"it even further. Thank you. Thank you Councillor Hemmin. Do"},{"t":12209,"text":"you wish to speak on the amendment or on the"},{"t":12211,"text":"referral motion. Neither? Okay. I had your hand up, but"},{"t":12215,"text":"I wasn't sure if I had missed you in something"},{"t":12216,"text":"else. So just on the amendment Councillor Coleman. Thank you."},{"t":12222,"text":"Um, I don't support the motion to refer, but I"},{"t":12224,"text":"think that if it does go through the amendment makes"},{"t":12228,"text":"it better. So I'll support the amendment. Thank you very"},{"t":12231,"text":"much. On the amendment of bolden language. Council Thompson. Just"},{"t":12237,"text":"thanks Mayor just on the notion that the amendment would"},{"t":12239,"text":"make this stretch out 10 or 15 years. I mean,"},{"t":12241,"text":"the words in 2026 are still in the motion. Thanks."},{"t":12246,"text":"Thank you. Anybody else on the amendment. Not seeing anyone"},{"t":12251,"text":"else on the amendment and noting that Councillor Kim is"},{"t":12253,"text":"still not with us. So there are eight votes here."},{"t":12256,"text":"All those in favor of the amendment. Councillor Coronado Councillor"},{"t":12260,"text":"Lotin Councillor Coleman Councillor Thompson in opposition. Foster Dell myself"},{"t":12267,"text":"Councillor Gardner and Councillor Hammond. So the amendment fails on"},{"t":12272,"text":"a tie. That will take us back then to Councillor"},{"t":12276,"text":"Thompson on the motion to refer and staff you can"},{"t":12279,"text":"delete that bolded language. Still on the motion to refer"},{"t":12284,"text":"Council Thompson. Yes. I think it's unfortunate that we haven't"},{"t":12287,"text":"provided the clarity to the, uh, province in the letter"},{"t":12291,"text":"that may be forthcoming. But I do want to just"},{"t":12295,"text":"point out more generally on the motion to refer that"},{"t":12299,"text":"I think that a temperature check without the needed information."},{"t":12304,"text":"These are pretty serious pieces of information that are needed."},{"t":12307,"text":"Uh, the criticism that, Oh, why couldn't this have been"},{"t":12310,"text":"said earlier? Well, you know, the, the report of the,"},{"t":12316,"text":"um, of the assembly came out at a certain date,"},{"t":12320,"text":"uh, and then there was a letter. And then there"},{"t":12323,"text":"were a couple of conversations between the mayors and the"},{"t":12326,"text":"minister which ended up in April. I, you know, I"},{"t":12332,"text":"think that if the ministry has done a bit of"},{"t":12336,"text":"looking at this and decided that, uh, that additional analysis"},{"t":12341,"text":"is required. And certainly the first nation's consultation, um, I"},{"t":12346,"text":"think that it would be, uh, unwise, perhaps, uh, to"},{"t":12349,"text":"proceed without that. Um, I'll just point out that the"},{"t":12354,"text":"group amalgamation, yes, has spoken against just having a temperature"},{"t":12358,"text":"check. And I finally, I think that, you know, that"},{"t":12363,"text":"simple question at the top, do you support Senich and"},{"t":12366,"text":"Victoria becoming one municipality? A lot of people are going"},{"t":12368,"text":"to show up at the polling booth, uh, and be"},{"t":12371,"text":"misled into thinking that, Oh, this is a decision that"},{"t":12374,"text":"we're making. It is not a decision. It wouldn't be"},{"t":12377,"text":"a decision. Um, we'd be pretty far away from a"},{"t":12380,"text":"decision actually. And I think that misleading the public would"},{"t":12383,"text":"be the worst possible thing that we could do. Uh,"},{"t":12386,"text":"so I do think we do need to refer this"},{"t":12388,"text":"to the province to do the work that it wants"},{"t":12390,"text":"done. Thank you very much. Councillor Hem and you have"},{"t":12392,"text":"your hand up. Is it on referral. Yes, please go"},{"t":12395,"text":"ahead. Yes. Thanks Mayor. I will be making my arguments"},{"t":12403,"text":"on the referral by saying that we need to be"},{"t":12406,"text":"actually voting on this. So I'm not opposed to residents"},{"t":12410,"text":"voting on amalgamation. In fact, I want residents to have"},{"t":12413,"text":"the final say. But after years of discussion reports, public"},{"t":12416,"text":"money and process. The next question should be the real"},{"t":12419,"text":"question. It should be a binding legally, meaningful, uh, vote"},{"t":12424,"text":"where residents can say, yes or no. And they know"},{"t":12427,"text":"their vote actually matters. I'm in Winnipeg right now helping"},{"t":12430,"text":"my dad, uh, Winnipeg went through an amalgamation more than"},{"t":12433,"text":"50 years ago. In that case, the province made a"},{"t":12436,"text":"decision enacted in Victoria. The province is leaving this up"},{"t":12440,"text":"to local residents, but not really. We are being asked"},{"t":12443,"text":"to consider another non binding question that may produce more"},{"t":12447,"text":"discussion, more uncertainty and no final decision. That's not good"},{"t":12452,"text":"enough. We also know the core issue residents want answered."},{"t":12457,"text":"Should Victorian sandwich amalgamate or not. If we are going"},{"t":12459,"text":"to ask that question, then let's ask it properly. A"},{"t":12464,"text":"non - binding question risks lower turnout and a huge"},{"t":12468,"text":"result, because many people will reasonably conclude the question does"},{"t":12472,"text":"not actually decide anything. So I will be not supporting"},{"t":12474,"text":"this referral. Which also is not supporting the non -"},{"t":12480,"text":"binding ballot question. When the province gives Victorian Sanich a"},{"t":12485,"text":"clear path to binding to abunding vote, I will support"},{"t":12488,"text":"asking residents directly. Until then, I do not support asking"},{"t":12492,"text":"people another question that does not settle the issue. Hence"},{"t":12496,"text":"on this issue of referral, I want us to be"},{"t":12498,"text":"really clear and just be voting no and not extending"},{"t":12502,"text":"this process. And so I'm voting against residents. Um, having,"},{"t":12506,"text":"I'm not voting against residents having a say I'm voting"},{"t":12507,"text":"against pretending this question gives them one. My obligation to"},{"t":12511,"text":"Victorians is to be honest with them and the impact"},{"t":12515,"text":"that their votes and their time. So I'm against the"},{"t":12517,"text":"referral. I say we should just put an end to"},{"t":12521,"text":"this. We can let the province decide how they want"},{"t":12523,"text":"to go forward. But let's just make it very clear."},{"t":12527,"text":"Not send it back to an answer that we know"},{"t":12530,"text":"what we will get. They won't come up with something"},{"t":12532,"text":"for 2026. Let's just put an end to this. Thank"},{"t":12535,"text":"you. Thank you. On the motion to refer anyone else."},{"t":12541,"text":"Tell us they're loading. Oh, sorry. Councillor Dell you're up"},{"t":12542,"text":"next and then Councillor Loton. Sure. Um, I'm opposed to"},{"t":12548,"text":"this motion to refer what this will do is probably,"},{"t":12552,"text":"uh, take the question off the ballot and likely, uh,"},{"t":12555,"text":"allow a group of nine people to kill amalgamation possibly"},{"t":12558,"text":"forever, which I don't think is a decision that should"},{"t":12560,"text":"rest with us. This motion is, is, is predicated on"},{"t":12564,"text":"the assumption that the province is going to go, Oh,"},{"t":12566,"text":"great. We can finally do all the research. That nine"},{"t":12569,"text":"councillors told us to do. We'll step down and do"},{"t":12571,"text":"millions of dollar people. Our other work down to do"},{"t":12573,"text":"that research. The province is going to get this and"},{"t":12576,"text":"go, well, you guys don't want to do it. Shred"},{"t":12579,"text":"and amalgamation will be dead. There's no chance whatsoever that"},{"t":12582,"text":"the province without a vote is going to be doing"},{"t":12584,"text":"additional research and consultation because we told them to. So"},{"t":12588,"text":"if, if we feel comfortable killing amalgamation at this console"},{"t":12592,"text":"table right now, then I would say support the motion"},{"t":12594,"text":"to refer. Um, we are upholding our end of the"},{"t":12597,"text":"bargain, which is that we are going to ask the"},{"t":12599,"text":"public a question. Do you support a question? And that's"},{"t":12603,"text":"what I want to see out of this outcome today."},{"t":12605,"text":"I don't really care what the question is, but I"},{"t":12606,"text":"want to uphold our end of the bargain. Um, but"},{"t":12609,"text":"the motion to refer, I think, would be a disaster"},{"t":12612,"text":"for, for the all the work that has gone into"},{"t":12614,"text":"it today. It doesn't uphold our end of the bargain."},{"t":12617,"text":"And I think it was completely anti - democratic because,"},{"t":12620,"text":"uh, we would be removing a question from the ballot,"},{"t":12622,"text":"which was our commitment and telling another order of government"},{"t":12625,"text":"what to do when they're not going to do it."},{"t":12626,"text":"So, um, I hope we can defeat this today. Thank"},{"t":12631,"text":"you, Coach Verlowin on the motion to refer. You, Mayor."},{"t":12635,"text":"I concur with the words that were just said, I"},{"t":12638,"text":"think actually what this will do is give the province"},{"t":12641,"text":"an out that they're really looking for right now. We'll"},{"t":12643,"text":"just hand it to them on a silver platter. Um,"},{"t":12646,"text":"they clearly want to put this on hold, even though"},{"t":12651,"text":"our residents and the citizens'assembly, we've done everything we can"},{"t":12655,"text":"to try to push this forward. And it's really disappointing."},{"t":12658,"text":"I'm going to say that, um, I wish this wasn't"},{"t":12663,"text":"happening in this way. But to take the question off"},{"t":12667,"text":"the ballot, it'll just disappear into the ethers. We need"},{"t":12672,"text":"to keep it alive, even though it's non binding and"},{"t":12676,"text":"let our residents know that we did everything we possibly"},{"t":12678,"text":"could. And we are products of the provincial government. We"},{"t":12682,"text":"can say to them, you should do this. You should"},{"t":12685,"text":"do that. You should bring back a binding question in"},{"t":12688,"text":"2030, but we have zero power over that. And we"},{"t":12691,"text":"need to remember that. Um, so in alignment with the"},{"t":12695,"text":"last speaker, I think we had essentially kill amalgamation if"},{"t":12699,"text":"we don't put this question on the ballot. Thanks. Thank"},{"t":12702,"text":"you very much. Anyone else on the motion to refer"},{"t":12704,"text":"Councillor Gardner. I really appreciate the motion. In that it's"},{"t":12710,"text":"an attempt to try to keep it alive, but it"},{"t":12713,"text":"doesn't keep it alive because the minister has killed this"},{"t":12717,"text":"initiative that's been going forward right now. And so I"},{"t":12720,"text":"really think we need to, uh, kill the motion and"},{"t":12723,"text":"I realised this motion to refer, I'm sorry, is attached"},{"t":12727,"text":"to the number one of the main motion. But the"},{"t":12733,"text":"fact is the minister has declared that she doesn't want"},{"t":12737,"text":"this to happen. And I cannot support the game that"},{"t":12742,"text":"she has just created for all of us. It is"},{"t":12744,"text":"an insult. The Democratic process is an insult to the"},{"t":12748,"text":"citizen's assembly. It's an insult to those who have worked"},{"t":12751,"text":"for this for the last 15 years. Thank you. Anyone"},{"t":12755,"text":"else on the motion to refer. Looks like we've canvased"},{"t":12761,"text":"that one adequately. In favor of the motion to refer."},{"t":12765,"text":"Please indicate. Councillor Cardona and Councillor Thompson. In opposition Councillor"},{"t":12772,"text":"Dell, Councillor Kim Councillor Loughton, Councillor Hammond, myself, Council Coleman"},{"t":12777,"text":"and Councillor Gardner. So that motion to refer is defeated."},{"t":12782,"text":"That takes us back to the main motion and, uh,"},{"t":12784,"text":"Councillor Caradona, you still have the floor. Sure. That you"},{"t":12789,"text":"have less than a minute left. Okay. I guess if"},{"t":12791,"text":"I'm going to say anything else is that if, if"},{"t":12794,"text":"this is in fact going to proceed, which it looks"},{"t":12798,"text":"like it will, I don't think I can support number"},{"t":12801,"text":"two because I think we, we do need to be"},{"t":12803,"text":"actually transparent. About the fact that this is non binding."},{"t":12808,"text":"So if we're not providing any additional information, that would"},{"t":12810,"text":"appear to bind our hands even on that. Could I"},{"t":12813,"text":"put that through to staff to see if that is"},{"t":12815,"text":"in fact the case. Mr. Kingsley, if the second part"},{"t":12819,"text":"of this motion is adopted and I take the point"},{"t":12822,"text":"that we can certainly separate them when we come to"},{"t":12824,"text":"the vote. What do you interpret from that direction. Uh,"},{"t":12831,"text":"three, Mayor. The second part of the motion I interpreted"},{"t":12834,"text":"just to be simply that we would provide the question"},{"t":12837,"text":"that there is going to be a question on the"},{"t":12838,"text":"ballot. And we would provide access readily and easily access"},{"t":12843,"text":"to the information that's already publicly available provided by the"},{"t":12847,"text":"Citizens Assembly in support of that. Okay. The problem is"},{"t":12850,"text":"that the information from the Citizens Assembly doesn't indicate that"},{"t":12854,"text":"it's non - binding. So I'm running out of time,"},{"t":12856,"text":"but I'd like to just very briefly try to amend."},{"t":12859,"text":"Number two. Go ahead. Public beyond what has already been"},{"t":12863,"text":"provided comma. With the exception of. Information related to the"},{"t":12872,"text":"non - binding nature of the, of the referendum. Can"},{"t":12877,"text":"you be a bit more specific about what you intend."},{"t":12882,"text":"Well, my intention is to be crystal clear and transparent"},{"t":12885,"text":"with the public that they're voting in a non -"},{"t":12887,"text":"binding referendum. And if we are committing to not producing"},{"t":12890,"text":"a shred of additional information beyond what's already been produced,"},{"t":12894,"text":"that very key piece of information would not land with"},{"t":12896,"text":"voters. We're not paying attention like we are. So may"},{"t":12899,"text":"I suggest a slightly different wording that I think will"},{"t":12901,"text":"meet what I believe you're saying, but will confine it"},{"t":12905,"text":"more specifically. It might say with the exception of a"},{"t":12909,"text":"statement that the referendum is non - binding. Sure, yeah."},{"t":12914,"text":"Yeah. As long as that goes out on the website"},{"t":12917,"text":"and publicly of a statement that the referendum is non"},{"t":12920,"text":"- binding. The referendum is non - binding. And just"},{"t":12929,"text":"the only reason I suggest that is because when you"},{"t":12931,"text":"have a description of information about it can be lots"},{"t":12934,"text":"of different things. Right. So just if I'm correcting my"},{"t":12937,"text":"understanding of your intent, you simply want a statement that"},{"t":12940,"text":"says FYI while you're voting. This is non - binding."},{"t":12945,"text":"Yes, that's correct. Yes, okay. So I think that's just"},{"t":12948,"text":"a little bit more confining and clear. Is there a"},{"t":12950,"text":"seconder for that. Amendment. Councillor Gardner. Uh, you have 32"},{"t":12954,"text":"seconds. Would you wish to - Okay, I think it's"},{"t":12957,"text":"probably unrealistic to assume that we could produce new costing"},{"t":12961,"text":"data or other kind of research. That's not fair. But"},{"t":12964,"text":"I do think it's very fair to say, look, if"},{"t":12966,"text":"voters are going to vote in what is essentially a"},{"t":12968,"text":"non - binding referendum, they should understand eyes wide open"},{"t":12971,"text":"that that's what they're doing. It's basic form of transparency"},{"t":12974,"text":"and good governance. Vergard, thank you. Councillor Gardner is the"},{"t":12977,"text":"secondary. Of four minutes. May I make amendment to the"},{"t":12983,"text":"amendment? Yes, of course. Okay. Uh, except the reference non"},{"t":12988,"text":"binding, comma, as per direction of minister boy."},{"t":13005,"text":"So I'm just going to suggest that again, speaking to"},{"t":13009,"text":"the point of accuracy. I would suggest to you that"},{"t":13014,"text":"the appropriate language would be. As indicated by Minister Boyle"},{"t":13018,"text":"in her letter of whatever that date is. In the"},{"t":13023,"text":"absence of that specificity, we're allowing our interpretation of her"},{"t":13028,"text":"language. Yeah. No, I gotcha. So it was indicative municipal"},{"t":13031,"text":"in the letter of, I think it's, uh, you have"},{"t":13035,"text":"it there in the packaging. It's April. April 4th? I"},{"t":13039,"text":"can't remember the exact date, but I'm looking to staff."},{"t":13042,"text":"29. Mr. Kingsley, do you have that readily available. Uh,"},{"t":13047,"text":"the date of the letter we received from the minister"},{"t":13050,"text":"was April 29th, 2026. So it should be in her"},{"t":13053,"text":"letter. Let's post to the letter and her letter of"},{"t":13057,"text":"April 29, 2026. So there you go. That's just to"},{"t":13061,"text":"be very specific so that we're not interpreting something but"},{"t":13064,"text":"referring specifically to her language. Uh, so without that, I"},{"t":13067,"text":"would, uh, I would declare that an appropriate amendment to"},{"t":13070,"text":"the amendment. Is there a second there for that amendment"},{"t":13072,"text":"to the amendment? Councillor Lonton is seconding that. Go ahead,"},{"t":13075,"text":"Councillor on your amendment today. Thank you. And I assume"},{"t":13077,"text":"that would be on the website under the election information"},{"t":13080,"text":"and a link to the letter. That doesn't have to"},{"t":13083,"text":"be an emotion, but I would assume that that direction"},{"t":13085,"text":"would be on our website on the voting day. And"},{"t":13088,"text":"there would be a link directly to her letter. Yeah."},{"t":13092,"text":"Does that make sense without having to change the motion?"},{"t":13095,"text":"Yep. Thank you. Councillor Loten is secondary. Yes. Through you,"},{"t":13099,"text":"Mayor. I was actually thinking of a similar amendment. So"},{"t":13102,"text":"I'm happy that the mover brought this forward. I think"},{"t":13103,"text":"it's really important that residents understand that it's the reason"},{"t":13109,"text":"it's non - binding is because of a provincial decision"},{"t":13112,"text":"and not something that has happened from us. Okay. Thank"},{"t":13116,"text":"you for that. On the amendment to the amendment, the"},{"t":13118,"text":"underlying language. Anybody else. What's your doll? Um, yeah, I'm"},{"t":13124,"text":"actually going to oppose this. And the reason I'm going"},{"t":13126,"text":"to oppose is that I do find it odd for"},{"t":13128,"text":"one level of government to be confirming the viewpoint of"},{"t":13130,"text":"another level of government. He has to minister has written"},{"t":13132,"text":"us a letter that it's non - binding. Um, but"},{"t":13135,"text":"I don't know if that's a position of the premier"},{"t":13137,"text":"of cabinet or if that position will change. Like let's"},{"t":13140,"text":"say if both municipalities come back with a hundred percent"},{"t":13143,"text":"vote is the vote, a yes vote, will it still"},{"t":13147,"text":"be, will the minister still have to hold another binding"},{"t":13149,"text":"referendum or can they go, you know what we saw"},{"t":13152,"text":"things were pretty good there. We're going to, we'll do"},{"t":13154,"text":"this for you. So it tricks me as a bit"},{"t":13156,"text":"uncomfortable to confirm a provincial viewpoint when all we really"},{"t":13160,"text":"have is one letter from the minister. I think that"},{"t":13162,"text":"could be a little risky. So I don't think this"},{"t":13164,"text":"was probably best intergovernmental relationship. So I'll oppose. Thank you"},{"t":13171,"text":"Councillor Cardone. You have 16 seconds. 16 just speaking following"},{"t":13177,"text":"those comments, a non binding outcome, let's just say it"},{"t":13180,"text":"were 95 or 100 percent yes such. So the non"},{"t":13186,"text":"binding nature of the boat actually doesn't bind their hands"},{"t":13188,"text":"either way. But they could take it as direction to"},{"t":13190,"text":"do whatever they want. Thank you, Councillor. I happy little"},{"t":13196,"text":"thing is telling me you're done. Anyone else on the"},{"t":13199,"text":"amendment to the amendment, the underlined bolded language. I'm also"},{"t":13206,"text":"not going to support that amendment to the amendment as"},{"t":13209,"text":"I do think that it closes a door that remains"},{"t":13211,"text":"open pending the outcome of the referendum should it go"},{"t":13215,"text":"ahead. All those in favor of the underlined bold language"},{"t":13220,"text":"Council Cardona Council Lotin Councillor Gardner Councillor Hammond. In opposition"},{"t":13226,"text":"Councillor Dell Councillor Kim myself Councillor Coleman at Councillor Thompson."},{"t":13231,"text":"So the underlying language as an amendment to the amendment"},{"t":13234,"text":"fails. We're now back on the amendment and Councillor Gardner."},{"t":13239,"text":"You still have the floor. On the amendment. Councillor Gardner."},{"t":13243,"text":"On the amendment. Nothing? No? Okay. On anyone else on"},{"t":13251,"text":"the amendment, the bolded language that remains. Not seeing anyone"},{"t":13257,"text":"else on the amendment. All those in favor. Oh, I'm"},{"t":13261,"text":"sorry. Are you something else to say. Just wanted to"},{"t":13265,"text":"clarify the meaning of that. Does that mean that we"},{"t":13269,"text":"will be providing a statement that the referendum is non"},{"t":13272,"text":"- binding? I think it, from what I'm reading there,"},{"t":13274,"text":"it says that, uh, we could. I believe the interpretation"},{"t":13279,"text":"of that staff have indicated is that the way this"},{"t":13282,"text":"is phrased is that other than providing a ballot question,"},{"t":13286,"text":"that will not, city will not do other stuff with"},{"t":13287,"text":"the exception of a statement that the referendum is on"},{"t":13290,"text":"binding. That means that we're going to provide, if this"},{"t":13292,"text":"passes, we're going to provide a valid question and a"},{"t":13295,"text":"statement that the referendum is non binding. If the bolded"},{"t":13300,"text":"language is adopted. Okay. On the bolded amendment, all those"},{"t":13306,"text":"in favor. Councillor Kim, Council Crude, I don't act, Councillor"},{"t":13310,"text":"Lotencer Coleman, Councillor Gardner, Councillor Thompson and Councillor Hemmand and"},{"t":13315,"text":"opposition Councillor Dell and myself. And noting to, in opposition"},{"t":13319,"text":"that amendment is carried and Councillor Gardner, you still have"},{"t":13324,"text":"the floor. No, waiting on just a second. Yes, you"},{"t":13327,"text":"do. Go ahead. Uh, but you're out of time. So"},{"t":13334,"text":"Councillor Gardiner, you were up next on the main motion"},{"t":13336,"text":"as amended you. Yep. Back to the main motion. Yep."},{"t":13341,"text":"I spoke clearly before and I was very impressed by"},{"t":13344,"text":"that letter that Councillor Carrie Donna wrote, or read from"},{"t":13348,"text":"a member of the assembly that said essentially that they"},{"t":13352,"text":"had not only done their job, but the people won't"},{"t":13355,"text":"understand what's going forward. They really won't. And that people"},{"t":13358,"text":"aren't going to be engaged because they know it's not"},{"t":13362,"text":"important. They know that this provincial government, this minister thinks"},{"t":13365,"text":"it's not important to our region. I cannot support this"},{"t":13369,"text":"main motion. I sincerely cannot because it's a farce. And"},{"t":13373,"text":"it makes a farce of our democratic process and the"},{"t":13376,"text":"process created decades ago by the provincial government. And I"},{"t":13381,"text":"don't even know what party was in power when they"},{"t":13382,"text":"did it. Thank you. Can you anyone else on the"},{"t":13386,"text":"main motion as amended Councillor Lowe. Through you, Mayor, I"},{"t":13394,"text":"find this whole situation really disappointing. The province has had"},{"t":13399,"text":"since at least 2014 and before that to think about"},{"t":13403,"text":"the global reality of this situation and to come now"},{"t":13406,"text":"with these restrictions is disrespectful to our electorate by shifting"},{"t":13411,"text":"the goalposts from a binding referendum to a non -"},{"t":13414,"text":"binding opinion poll. The province has effectively kicked the bucket"},{"t":13417,"text":"down the road. We do not need another temperature check"},{"t":13420,"text":"to know what the public wants. We need the structural"},{"t":13423,"text":"framework to execute it if that is what residents choose."},{"t":13429,"text":"However, we have done everything we can to deliver this."},{"t":13436,"text":"And we have been respectful to our electorate. We are"},{"t":13439,"text":"doing all we can to push this process forward. And"},{"t":13441,"text":"I want our residents to know this. And that's why"},{"t":13443,"text":"I support including the question on the ballot so that"},{"t":13447,"text":"the issue of amalgamation stays alive. Thank you. Thank you"},{"t":13452,"text":"very much. Anyone else on the main motion? Councillor Coleman"},{"t":13456,"text":"Councillor Thompson. Thank you. Um, I have more faith in"},{"t":13460,"text":"the public. Perhaps. I think that they see, um, the"},{"t":13466,"text":"gamesmanship perhaps that's going on. I, in the process, in"},{"t":13470,"text":"my earlier reflections, I talked about passion and patience. I"},{"t":13474,"text":"wish this was a binding referendum. But I recognise that"},{"t":13480,"text":"it's a step in the process. And I think if"},{"t":13486,"text":"we can, uh, engage our publics. And I think they"},{"t":13490,"text":"are watching, um, and we get the similar result that"},{"t":13494,"text":"we got in 2014, which is in the 80 percent"},{"t":13497,"text":"level. I support this. Thank you very much. Councillor Thompson,"},{"t":13504,"text":"then Councillor Hammond. Thanks Mayor. I want to try for"},{"t":13506,"text":"an amendment to number one. Within the quotes. Do you"},{"t":13513,"text":"support and then. The province."},{"t":13524,"text":"Making. Then Sanition Victoria and then delete becoming. In order"},{"t":13530,"text":"to clarify what's really going on or not. Thank you."},{"t":13534,"text":"Delete becoming? Yes, I just know what you're saying. Uh,"},{"t":13536,"text":"that would be an order. Uh, is there a seconder"},{"t":13539,"text":"for that amendment. Yes. Councillor Codonna, you can certainly second."},{"t":13544,"text":"You simply can't speak to it. Um, Councillor Thompson, to"},{"t":13548,"text":"your amendment. Try to speak for both of us here."},{"t":13551,"text":"Um, the reality is as we've discussed, the cities do"},{"t":13556,"text":"not and cannot make amalgamation happen. Putting that question, the"},{"t":13561,"text":"original question on the ballot, will mislead members of the"},{"t":13565,"text":"public into thinking that, Oh, the municipality is going to"},{"t":13568,"text":"decide when the reality is that the province needs to"},{"t":13571,"text":"decide. It's the only body that can decide. Um, so"},{"t":13575,"text":"I think again, in order to try to not mislead"},{"t":13578,"text":"the public, I don't think that this adds a lot"},{"t":13581,"text":"of verbiage to the, uh, I think it adds two"},{"t":13584,"text":"net words. Uh, so I still think it's a very"},{"t":13587,"text":"clear short question, but it's much more accurate. Thanks. Thank"},{"t":13592,"text":"you very much. Any other comments on the amendment, which"},{"t":13595,"text":"is just the bolded language, one word of which is"},{"t":13599,"text":"also struck through. Have you done as an ex -"},{"t":13603,"text":"speaker, but do you wish to speak to the amendment."},{"t":13606,"text":"Sure. Why not? Go ahead. Um, actually the difficulty, cause"},{"t":13612,"text":"I'll be voting no, but the difficulty of putting this"},{"t":13614,"text":"in is that we are presupposing, well, we know that"},{"t":13620,"text":"only the province can do it, but we, you know,"},{"t":13623,"text":"what if someone says, well, do you know what the"},{"t":13626,"text":"province is going to do? And someone would say no."},{"t":13629,"text":"And the difficulty is, is I just don't, I just"},{"t":13631,"text":"think it adds more complexity to it. I appreciate where"},{"t":13634,"text":"the movers, the amender is coming from on this. Um,"},{"t":13637,"text":"but I just, I just think it would add complexity."},{"t":13641,"text":"Thank you very much. Anyone else on the amendments. Councillor"},{"t":13648,"text":"Kim? Uh, thank you through the chair question to staff."},{"t":13651,"text":"Um. Why was the original question, where did the way"},{"t":13657,"text":"it was. And not this? That would be a question,"},{"t":13661,"text":"I think, for me more than staff. Um, the original"},{"t":13663,"text":"question, uh, do you support sanition Victoria becoming one municipality."},{"t":13668,"text":"Was a question that arose from multiple conversations between a"},{"t":13672,"text":"mayor Murdoch and myself, uh, our senior staff and legislative"},{"t":13676,"text":"services seeking something that was simple, short and unable to"},{"t":13680,"text":"be interpreted. In your estimation, is this still simple, short?"},{"t":13685,"text":"No. Okay. I would, I was going to make a"},{"t":13689,"text":"comment, but I'll wait till my turn. Okay. Thanks. And"},{"t":13691,"text":"then, uh, a question to whoever is, um, this is"},{"t":13697,"text":"not the question that sadness is putting forward, right? Correct."},{"t":13700,"text":"And so what are advantages or drawbacks to not matching"},{"t":13705,"text":"sanitish? If you can think of any off the top"},{"t":13707,"text":"of that as well and my comments. And so maybe"},{"t":13709,"text":"I'll just do them now. Um, in response to your"},{"t":13712,"text":"questions. I don't think that this is helpful partially because"},{"t":13717,"text":"of the fact that there is now a statement in"},{"t":13719,"text":"number two that speaks to the fact of the referendum"},{"t":13722,"text":"not being binding. I do think in fact it's quite"},{"t":13725,"text":"misleading to suggest that the public is looking for the"},{"t":13730,"text":"province to take this up as a galvanized priority, which"},{"t":13733,"text":"I doubt that it would be in the foreseeable future,"},{"t":13736,"text":"uh, without there being clear indication from the public. As"},{"t":13739,"text":"to the question of a differential between the two questions,"},{"t":13743,"text":"uh, I do think, uh, and happy to have, um,"},{"t":13746,"text":"Mr. Kingsley comment as well. I do think that having"},{"t":13749,"text":"the questions differ hands the province a reason to just"},{"t":13753,"text":"say no. And ignore us for the next foreseeable period"},{"t":13756,"text":"of time because they will argue, I would suggest that"},{"t":13761,"text":"it wouldn't municipality says yes or no to one question."},{"t":13764,"text":"And the other municipality says yes or no to a"},{"t":13765,"text":"different question. They no longer have any force or effect"},{"t":13769,"text":"on the indicators of whether or not the two wish"},{"t":13771,"text":"to join together. Uh, previously when we had questions, multiple"},{"t":13775,"text":"questions on ballots in 1418 and arguably many years beforehand,"},{"t":13779,"text":"we never did have identical questions in every municipality. And"},{"t":13783,"text":"it undermined the utility efficacy and strength of any type"},{"t":13786,"text":"of outreach to the province to take any action. Mr."},{"t":13792,"text":"Kingsley, do you have any other comments. Uh, thank you"},{"t":13794,"text":"Mayor. Don't really have any additional, um, comments as far"},{"t":13797,"text":"as implications from the staff perspective. Council is free to"},{"t":13800,"text":"put whichever question and word it in any way council"},{"t":13803,"text":"sees fit. I would, uh, defer to Council's judgment on"},{"t":13807,"text":"whether or not it wishes to match the wording in"},{"t":13809,"text":"our neighbouring municipality or not. Very good. So on the"},{"t":13814,"text":"amendment, which is the bolded and bolded and struck through"},{"t":13817,"text":"language. Any other comments. Let's see any other comments in"},{"t":13823,"text":"favor of the amendment. Please indicate. Councillor Caradona Councillor Thompson"},{"t":13829,"text":"and opposition. Councillor Dell, Councillor Kim Councillor Lothan Councillor Hammond,"},{"t":13836,"text":"myself Councillor Coleman and Councillor Gardner. So the amendment is"},{"t":13839,"text":"defeated. Councillor Thompson. You still have the floor. Thanks Mayor."},{"t":13845,"text":"How much time do I have left? Uh, you have"},{"t":13848,"text":"five minutes. Oh, okay. Thanks. I've been very brisk. So"},{"t":13851,"text":"a few points that I wanted to make just because"},{"t":13853,"text":"I have seen some misinformation circulating about this whole discussion."},{"t":13860,"text":"Uh, so the first one I've already made, which is,"},{"t":13863,"text":"um, is that it's a decision of the province. Um,"},{"t":13867,"text":"the notion of a binding referendum. We've already discussed that."},{"t":13873,"text":"The cities can't actually bind the province. The province can't"},{"t":13877,"text":"bind itself for that matter. It's just not legally possible."},{"t":13883,"text":"Um. I also wanted to mention there have not been"},{"t":13886,"text":"too previous referendums supporting amalgamation, those referendums asked very different"},{"t":13893,"text":"questions. Uh, whether there was interest in exploring it, um,"},{"t":13897,"text":"among a bunch of different municipalities, uh, and whether there"},{"t":13901,"text":"was interest in funding citizens assembly to look at it,"},{"t":13905,"text":"um, let's see what else. Uh, the assembly report as"},{"t":13910,"text":"one of my colleagues noted earlier was not unanimous. Uh,"},{"t":13913,"text":"there were five dissents or minority reports. I urge the"},{"t":13917,"text":"public to read those as well. Uh, because there has"},{"t":13921,"text":"been, um, statements in publicly to the effect that it"},{"t":13924,"text":"was consensus. And sometimes that's misunderstood to be unanimity. Let's"},{"t":13931,"text":"see. We've already discussed the fact that the province feels"},{"t":13934,"text":"that there is a need for more information before they"},{"t":13937,"text":"are willing to consider an amalgamation. Again, I think that"},{"t":13944,"text":"the question as asked is, is misleading, uh, because it's"},{"t":13948,"text":"going to make people think that, oh, if we, uh,"},{"t":13950,"text":"if the majority of residents support this, then it's going"},{"t":13953,"text":"to go ahead. And it's, that's very far from being"},{"t":13957,"text":"accurate. Let's see what else. I think that's all the"},{"t":13963,"text":"comments that I, uh, need to make on this. I'm"},{"t":13966,"text":"honestly still on the fence on whether I support this"},{"t":13972,"text":"motion just because it is so misleading. Uh, I'll have"},{"t":13975,"text":"to listen to what my colleagues have to say. Thanks."},{"t":13979,"text":"Thank you very much. Councillor Hammond. On the main motion."},{"t":13984,"text":"Yep. Thank you, Mayor. Let me see some thoughts on"},{"t":13989,"text":"this. Where did I write down some things. It's a"},{"t":13994,"text":"problem with only having one computer. Okay. Thanks very much."},{"t":13998,"text":"So since the referral was defeated, here are my thoughts"},{"t":14001,"text":"on the main question. I want to be clear about"},{"t":14004,"text":"what my vote means. I'm not voting against amalgamation. I'm"},{"t":14007,"text":"not voting against residents having a say. I believe residents"},{"t":14010,"text":"should have the final say on this issue. But this"},{"t":14013,"text":"is exactly why I cannot support this motion. I already"},{"t":14017,"text":"mentioned how a lot has gone into this and that"},{"t":14020,"text":"as a matter of fact, what the public has to"},{"t":14023,"text":"say really matters. A non - binding question may sound"},{"t":14026,"text":"democratic, but it does not settle the issue. It risks"},{"t":14030,"text":"giving us another round of process, another round of interpretation"},{"t":14034,"text":"and another result that everyone can argue about afterwards. Some"},{"t":14038,"text":"will say this gives us useful information. I understand that"},{"t":14041,"text":"argument. But we already know the real issue residents want"},{"t":14044,"text":"answered. Should Victoria and Santa Chamalgamate or not? If we"},{"t":14049,"text":"are going to put this question to voters, let's push"},{"t":14052,"text":"to them properly. I also worry that a non -"},{"t":14055,"text":"binding question could have produced a skewed result, as I'd"},{"t":14058,"text":"mentioned. Some residents may not bother voting because they conclude"},{"t":14062,"text":"reasonably that the question does not actually decide anything. So"},{"t":14066,"text":"I will continue to be voting no one's question, not"},{"t":14069,"text":"because I oppose residents having a say. But because I"},{"t":14072,"text":"believe that the say should count. Thank you very much."},{"t":14078,"text":"Anybody else. Councillor. As I said during my longer discussion"},{"t":14086,"text":"on this issue was. For the many years when I"},{"t":14089,"text":"was looking at it, the members of the NDP opposition"},{"t":14095,"text":"then. Committed to the process that the provincial government has"},{"t":14101,"text":"for examining an alchemations. This is a game, and I"},{"t":14106,"text":"think it's a very sad game. And I can't play"},{"t":14110,"text":"it. I hope that the minister gets this message, not"},{"t":14115,"text":"just for me, but from other people. And at the"},{"t":14118,"text":"ballot box, I think many people won't be voting for"},{"t":14121,"text":"it because they know it's just a game. And that"},{"t":14124,"text":"this will affect even the turnout at the ballot, which"},{"t":14126,"text":"is unfortunate. Thank you. Anybody else. Councillor. Thank you. Um,"},{"t":14136,"text":"I actually think this is somewhat of a fairly logical"},{"t":14139,"text":"next step in this whole process. And so I'm going"},{"t":14142,"text":"to support this motion. In 2022, I believe it was"},{"t":14147,"text":"where we asked, do you want to spend the money"},{"t":14148,"text":"on a citizens'assembly? People said yes. The citizens'assembly came back"},{"t":14152,"text":"and said, we recommend amalgamation. Um, but they're, their report"},{"t":14156,"text":"was very thorough, but it also did not get into"},{"t":14158,"text":"the technical details and the costs and expenses of this"},{"t":14161,"text":"work. And I think that is what we're asking now."},{"t":14163,"text":"Do you want to go forward and do the really"},{"t":14165,"text":"detailed and difficult work, um, before getting to a binding"},{"t":14168,"text":"vote. Um, I think the questions. I have a lot"},{"t":14171,"text":"of questions. I'm going to use one. What's the name"},{"t":14175,"text":"of Santa China Victoria going to be if we combine."},{"t":14178,"text":"Nobody wants to talk about that. It's the unspoken thing."},{"t":14180,"text":"No, no, don't ask that question. Well, I think that's"},{"t":14183,"text":"something that we need to know because that's going to"},{"t":14185,"text":"have an impact on it. We'll sanitch residents pay for"},{"t":14188,"text":"the new crystal pool. I don't know. There's a lot"},{"t":14191,"text":"of questions that I have and a lot of work"},{"t":14193,"text":"that has not been done on this. This type of"},{"t":14197,"text":"administrative work of combining this is a absolutely massive task."},{"t":14202,"text":"Although I think the citizens assembly recommended it's worth doing"},{"t":14204,"text":"that task. The actual work of it as a whole"},{"t":14207,"text":"separate story of combining bank accounts combining OCPs, uh, what"},{"t":14211,"text":"do we do with our 300 million reserve funds, which"},{"t":14215,"text":"Senich has not matched. What do we name ourselves and"},{"t":14219,"text":"how's that going to be? I know that's very touchy."},{"t":14221,"text":"And we've been avoiding some of the touchy questions. I"},{"t":14222,"text":"think that's what we're asking folks is do you want"},{"t":14224,"text":"to start doing that over the next four years. Ideally"},{"t":14227,"text":"led by the province. So, so this question is asking"},{"t":14230,"text":"people that. I think it's a logical next step. It's"},{"t":14232,"text":"not the one that I was hoping for. Yeah. I"},{"t":14234,"text":"think a binding question is what was promised. And I"},{"t":14236,"text":"do regret that the citizens assembly, um, folks. Were working"},{"t":14242,"text":"under that assumption, as was I. Um, I also think"},{"t":14246,"text":"there's a lot of work on amalgamation that can be"},{"t":14248,"text":"done before this happens. We can push for regional policing"},{"t":14252,"text":"right now with the stroke of a pen we can"},{"t":14254,"text":"have regional policing. We can have regional, um, services throughout"},{"t":14259,"text":"the region without amalgamation. Why is it that Victoria has"},{"t":14263,"text":"all the support of and shelter housing and we're doing"},{"t":14265,"text":"so much for the rest of the region when frankly"},{"t":14268,"text":"Sadness has not stepped up nearly enough. These are things"},{"t":14270,"text":"that can be addressed a transit authority with bike lanes"},{"t":14274,"text":"that actually connect to other municipalities and better transit planning."},{"t":14277,"text":"So I think this is a good next step. I"},{"t":14279,"text":"actually support this. Although I realise it's a bit disappointing,"},{"t":14282,"text":"but I think a better reflects the reality. And I"},{"t":14285,"text":"think it's time some of us, um, we're around this"},{"t":14288,"text":"table and the citizens assembly or in the public or"},{"t":14290,"text":"the minister start trying to answer some of those hard"},{"t":14293,"text":"questions about, about finances and administration and see if public"},{"t":14297,"text":"wants to do that. So, um, I'm going to reluctantly"},{"t":14300,"text":"support this as a next step. Thank you. Thank you."},{"t":14304,"text":"Anybody else. Council Coleman. I see I have two minutes"},{"t":14309,"text":"and 41 seconds. I will try and be brief and"},{"t":14311,"text":"then finish with a minute of interpretive dance. No, I"},{"t":14315,"text":"won't do that. Um, I think we can get hung"},{"t":14317,"text":"up on all those. What would it be called, um,"},{"t":14321,"text":"well, if we learn from Halifax, it became HRM. We"},{"t":14324,"text":"could be CRM, the capital regional municipality and have two"},{"t":14328,"text":"broader neighbourhoods within that. That doesn't matter. The question is,"},{"t":14333,"text":"how are we moving forward for future generations? Do I"},{"t":14335,"text":"wish this was a binding question? Yes. It isn't. Therefore,"},{"t":14340,"text":"if you're worried about voter, turnout and whether people understand"},{"t":14343,"text":"the question properly or not, go out as individuals and"},{"t":14346,"text":"make sure that the public understand what's at stake here."},{"t":14350,"text":"Um, that's up to us to carry that on with"},{"t":14353,"text":"all our groups. And as I say, if we get"},{"t":14355,"text":"back to the same results we saw in 2014, which"},{"t":14359,"text":"was more than 80 percent in both municipalities, that is"},{"t":14363,"text":"a clear signal to the province. Get on with the"},{"t":14366,"text":"job, please. Thank you. Councillor Kim. Thanks to the chair."},{"t":14372,"text":"Uh, I'm hearing some concerns about voter turnout. And, um,"},{"t":14376,"text":"I mean, everything can impact voter turnout. I was just"},{"t":14380,"text":"re - watching the West Wing the other night. And"},{"t":14383,"text":"there was this whole piece in the episode about how"},{"t":14386,"text":"rain impacted the voter turnout, which preferenced one candidate over"},{"t":14389,"text":"the other, right? At a certain point, you just have"},{"t":14392,"text":"to ask yourself, like, what is actually the goal here?"},{"t":14396,"text":"What is the principle? We're trying to meet and not"},{"t":14399,"text":"worry about details like voter. If anything, I'm actually, um,"},{"t":14404,"text":"of the opinion that voter turn out may increase because"},{"t":14407,"text":"it's such an existential question for, um, our region. And,"},{"t":14413,"text":"uh, I mean, we hear often people need to turn"},{"t":14416,"text":"out and vote and, you know, have their say. And"},{"t":14419,"text":"that's the way they have their voice expressed electorally. And"},{"t":14423,"text":"even if this were non binding or binding, I feel"},{"t":14426,"text":"as though people will still be, uh, motivated to come"},{"t":14429,"text":"out and have their position known. Um, another part here"},{"t":14434,"text":"is I, there's concern of how, um, provincial, I guess"},{"t":14440,"text":"we'll call it meddling has impacted the process. And things"},{"t":14444,"text":"aren't as perfect as we'd like. And also just earlier"},{"t":14447,"text":"today with the foul bay property, one of my colleagues"},{"t":14452,"text":"said no application is perfect. We do what we can"},{"t":14457,"text":"with what we have. And that is this. So to"},{"t":14459,"text":"me, what is the actual underlying principle? We're trying to"},{"t":14463,"text":"address with this referendum question through the process that we're"},{"t":14468,"text":"dealing with right now is democracy. We're just trying to"},{"t":14472,"text":"ask the residents what they're feeling. And it is our"},{"t":14475,"text":"job as governors to steward the process forward. And I"},{"t":14479,"text":"refuse to get in the way of that. We'll see"},{"t":14482,"text":"how the chips fall. But at the very least, we"},{"t":14485,"text":"need to give the electorate a chance to, you know,"},{"t":14488,"text":"throw the chips down. Okay. Thanks. Thank you very much."},{"t":14492,"text":"Anybody else. I should ask anyone else with anyone out"},{"t":14497,"text":"of time. That's right. Um, I think everyone has had"},{"t":14501,"text":"an adequate time. I will just take a brief moment"},{"t":14503,"text":"to Ms. McCreef comments. Uh, I do think that this"},{"t":14506,"text":"issue is less about the outcome that it is about"},{"t":14508,"text":"process. We made a commitment some time ago, uh, the"},{"t":14512,"text":"commitment should not be allowed to be solid by provincial"},{"t":14516,"text":"commentary. We're positioning our commitment as a council was to"},{"t":14520,"text":"respect the citizen's assembly. Should they make a recommendation to"},{"t":14524,"text":"place that before the people at the earliest opportunity. And"},{"t":14528,"text":"that's why I believe this has to happen this year"},{"t":14531,"text":"with this very simple question. And secondarily on the, um,"},{"t":14534,"text":"the issue of the additional requirements placed upon this by"},{"t":14538,"text":"the province. If that is what the Province wishes to"},{"t":14541,"text":"do, so be it. Uh, that is certainly within their"},{"t":14544,"text":"right and obligation to do so to facilitate that. And"},{"t":14547,"text":"to pay for it. Uh, but secondarily, it is an"},{"t":14550,"text":"enormous amount of information and work that has been suggested."},{"t":14553,"text":"And I would argue that unless we have an indication"},{"t":14556,"text":"from the public, uh, soon, uh, and early, uh, whether"},{"t":14561,"text":"or not they wish that work to continue, it would"},{"t":14563,"text":"be foolhardy for any order of government to expend the"},{"t":14567,"text":"CUBID and financial resources to undertake that work prior to"},{"t":14571,"text":"getting a current indication of whether or not that work"},{"t":14574,"text":"is warranted or desired. If the outcome of the referendum"},{"t":14579,"text":"should be endorsed this today is no, then this issue"},{"t":14585,"text":"will go away for a generation. And whatever resources may"},{"t":14590,"text":"or may not have been attended to for that work."},{"t":14593,"text":"We'll no longer need to be expended. If the answer"},{"t":14596,"text":"is yes. Then there will be a much clearer indication."},{"t":14601,"text":"Granted, it does not bind the province into taking action."},{"t":14604,"text":"But it indicates to them that their electors, not just"},{"t":14608,"text":"ours, but that their electors in Victoria and Sanish wish"},{"t":14613,"text":"to have the province move forward. I would suggest that"},{"t":14619,"text":"no government would be inclined to ignore such a direction."},{"t":14627,"text":"And so for that reason, obviously, I do think that"},{"t":14629,"text":"this motion should be supported. So I think everyone has"},{"t":14635,"text":"had an opportunity. So here is the motion in two"},{"t":14638,"text":"parts. I don't think they need to be separated because"},{"t":14640,"text":"of the amendment that was made to part two. So"},{"t":14643,"text":"I'm going to ask that you vote on them, uh,"},{"t":14645,"text":"together. All those in favor of the motion as amended."},{"t":14650,"text":"Councillor Dell, Councillor Kim, Councillor Lotin, myself Councillor Coleman in"},{"t":14656,"text":"opposition. Councillor Caradona, Councillor Hammond, Councillor Gardner and Councillor Thompson."},{"t":14663,"text":"And so by my calculation, please correct me if I'm"},{"t":14665,"text":"wrong. Mr. Kingsley. That is a five to four vote"},{"t":14667,"text":"in favor. And so the motion as amended is adopted"},{"t":14671,"text":"and let us now for the sake of the record,"},{"t":14675,"text":"consider the motion that Council received the Victoria Senich, Amalgamation"},{"t":14678,"text":"report from staff for information. I'm Thompson's moving Coleman seconding."},{"t":14683,"text":"Andy for the discussion on receipt. Seeing none, no was"},{"t":14685,"text":"in favor. And he went opposed. That indeed is unanimous."},{"t":14691,"text":"Councillor Thompson, you pulled the Council Member Motion from the"},{"t":14694,"text":"consent agenda. May I ask if you have lengthy discussion"},{"t":14699,"text":"about the matter. It is an amendment. Okay. I think"},{"t":14706,"text":"we can do that briefly. I'm conscious of the fact"},{"t":14708,"text":"that we do need to take a break shortly. So"},{"t":14710,"text":"let's see whether we can do this in a couple"},{"t":14712,"text":"of minutes. And if not, we'll take a break and"},{"t":14714,"text":"come back to it. This is H1 that Council Member"},{"t":14716,"text":"Motion around Advocacy to the province to restore better terms"},{"t":14719,"text":"for property tax to ferral programs. Councillor Hemmond, you crafted"},{"t":14723,"text":"this. I presume you'd like to move it. Thank you."},{"t":14725,"text":"Is there a seconder. Thanks, Councillor Caradona. Councillor Hemmond, do"},{"t":14730,"text":"you wish to speak to it. Yes. Go ahead. Okay."},{"t":14735,"text":"Uh, I should start by saying usually I'm not a,"},{"t":14737,"text":"uh, a fan of aggressive motion. I think that the"},{"t":14740,"text":"province probably has a, um, shredding department in which they"},{"t":14743,"text":"love to put most of these things too. The other"},{"t":14746,"text":"thing I want to say is I want to give"},{"t":14747,"text":"a disclaimer, um, a couple people actually directed me to"},{"t":14751,"text":"the document, um, that was put together by 11 certified"},{"t":14755,"text":"financial planners and chartered professional accountants for a BC. It's"},{"t":14758,"text":"one of the ones that's in the actual motion, the"},{"t":14760,"text":"attachment. Um, it was only when I got to the"},{"t":14763,"text":"bottom of the document that I discovered that Jane Burns"},{"t":14765,"text":"is one of the signatories Jane used to be my"},{"t":14767,"text":"personal and business accountant. And she has been my campaign"},{"t":14770,"text":"financial agent for the 2022 and soon to be 2026"},{"t":14774,"text":"election. However, it was not Jane who sent this document"},{"t":14777,"text":"to me and I had no idea that she was"},{"t":14779,"text":"a signatory, but I found the content as well as"},{"t":14782,"text":"other documents by compelling. So, um, the property tax deferral"},{"t":14787,"text":"program is often misunderstood. It is not a grant or"},{"t":14790,"text":"subsidy. It is secured loan program under which the province"},{"t":14794,"text":"pays the property tax to the municipality on the homeowner's"},{"t":14798,"text":"behalf. The amount becomes a secured loan registered against the"},{"t":14801,"text":"property title and is repaid with interest, uh, when the"},{"t":14805,"text":"property is sold or transferred. The program is available to"},{"t":14809,"text":"seniors H55 and older surviving spouses, persons with disabilities and"},{"t":14814,"text":"some families with children. The program exists because property taxes"},{"t":14818,"text":"must be paid from income rather than home equity. Many"},{"t":14822,"text":"homeowners, particularly seniors, live in homes that have appreciate over"},{"t":14826,"text":"decades, but they, but they rely primarily on CPP old"},{"t":14830,"text":"age security and modest pensions to cover ongoing expenses. This"},{"t":14833,"text":"year, the province increased the interest rate for the program."},{"t":14837,"text":"Whereas previously the rate for the regular program was prime"},{"t":14841,"text":"minus two percent. going forward, the rate will be prime"},{"t":14844,"text":"plus two percent compounded monthly. And current rates, that works"},{"t":14849,"text":"out to an effective annual borrowing cost of approximately 6."},{"t":14852,"text":"64 percent. The purpose of the property tax deferral program"},{"t":14856,"text":"was to help seniors age in place in their homes"},{"t":14860,"text":"charging prime plus two percent takes it from a cost"},{"t":14863,"text":"public policy, low cost public policy and turns it into"},{"t":14866,"text":"a market rate loan. Allowing seniors to age in place"},{"t":14870,"text":"is something I have witnessed with my father and his"},{"t":14873,"text":"recent deceased wife, Eleanor. While they sold their home to"},{"t":14877,"text":"eventually move into a senior's facility in the last couple"},{"t":14880,"text":"of years, the Winnipeg Health Authority has paid for staff"},{"t":14883,"text":"to help dad in the mornings. And at night, including"},{"t":14885,"text":"any medications, he also gets escorts to and from common"},{"t":14890,"text":"dining room, the common dining room. Most people in that"},{"t":14893,"text":"senior's facility receive similar care paid for by the health"},{"t":14897,"text":"authority. Just like those in rental seniors facilities, seniors who"},{"t":14901,"text":"still live in their homes, um, the homes that they"},{"t":14904,"text":"own, they get similar care because the province knows that"},{"t":14907,"text":"it's cheaper to keep seniors in their homes as opposed"},{"t":14910,"text":"to much more expensive long - term care. And most"},{"t":14913,"text":"provincial governments don't have enough long - term care buildings"},{"t":14916,"text":"and staff to support them. In making these changes, um,"},{"t":14921,"text":"our government cites rich seniors making money from these cheap"},{"t":14924,"text":"loans. Citing seniors living in properties were 10 million, 20"},{"t":14928,"text":"million or 40 million dollars who can take advantage of"},{"t":14931,"text":"this. Well, that may be the case. The number show"},{"t":14934,"text":"a different story. Last month, the BC seniors advocate released"},{"t":14937,"text":"data provided by the Ministry of Finance showing that the"},{"t":14940,"text":"median annual property tax deferral is approximately 3, 800 dollars"},{"t":14946,"text":"That means half of the participants differ less and then"},{"t":14949,"text":"that amount will have to fur more. Using 2026 municipal"},{"t":14953,"text":"tax rate, a 3, 800 dollar property tax bill corresponds"},{"t":14957,"text":"to a home assessed at approximately 821, 000 dollars in"},{"t":14961,"text":"Victoria and in approximately 635, 000 dollars market. Those are"},{"t":14966,"text":"not luxury homes. The ministry also showed that the average"},{"t":14970,"text":"outstanding deferment balance is approximately 29, 950 dollars per participating"},{"t":14977,"text":"household. But approximately 80 percent of these participants repaying the"},{"t":14981,"text":"deferment balance within 10 years. For most seniors, whether in"},{"t":14986,"text":"Manitoba, just like my dad and his wife, Ellen, her"},{"t":14988,"text":"in BC, like many seniors I know. The sale of"},{"t":14991,"text":"their home allows them to pay for the very expensive"},{"t":14994,"text":"accommodations and care. They'll need to look after themselves. And"},{"t":14998,"text":"here's the ironic impact. And it's really the reason that"},{"t":15002,"text":"I decided I wanted to bring this forward for us"},{"t":15004,"text":"to say something. Under this new plan, seniors and others"},{"t":15009,"text":"with money and good financial advisors will tell them that"},{"t":15013,"text":"if they were in the program, they shouldn't continue. So"},{"t":15016,"text":"those with enough finances will get out while the most"},{"t":15020,"text":"vulnerable, the most financially disadvantaged seniors with no financial alternatives"},{"t":15025,"text":"will be the ones paying these much higher rates compounded"},{"t":15028,"text":"monthly. I find that ironic and bad public policy. This"},{"t":15033,"text":"motion asked the province to talk to the senior's organisations"},{"t":15037,"text":"to come up with a program that's not punitive to"},{"t":15039,"text":"those who needed while disallowing those who have been able"},{"t":15042,"text":"to use this program as a cheap lending tool. My"},{"t":15046,"text":"first thoughts on this was to create a means test,"},{"t":15049,"text":"but reading the attached document, I shouldn't pretend that I"},{"t":15051,"text":"have all the answers. Hence, I'm, uh, that's why I'm"},{"t":15054,"text":"asking Council to encourage the province to talk to the"},{"t":15057,"text":"senior's advocate and others who can help them come up"},{"t":15060,"text":"with a system that helps seniors and others with low"},{"t":15062,"text":"and moderate incomes while at the same time, just allowing"},{"t":15065,"text":"well off seniors who don't need this program. When a"},{"t":15068,"text":"small number of people may be using a program in"},{"t":15071,"text":"a way that concerns our government, the answer should be"},{"t":15075,"text":"a scalpel, not a sledgehammer. We as councillors hear from"},{"t":15079,"text":"Seniors every day about their difficulty to pay their ever"},{"t":15082,"text":"increasing rising costs on fix and modest incomes. The Victoria"},{"t":15086,"text":"is not a particularly high income city. The city has"},{"t":15089,"text":"many renters, seniors, students, and single family households and median"},{"t":15093,"text":"household income is well below what many people assume. And"},{"t":15098,"text":"one of the thing to consider, since the program only"},{"t":15101,"text":"requires people to have 25 percent equity in their homes,"},{"t":15105,"text":"many people may be making monthly mortgage payments, hence deferring"},{"t":15109,"text":"their property taxes, helps them to get by. Thanks Mayor."},{"t":15116,"text":"Thank you, Councillor. I'm actually going to suggest that we"},{"t":15118,"text":"take a brief break at this point because we have"},{"t":15120,"text":"been sitting for quite a significant amount of time when"},{"t":15123,"text":"we return at 2. 30, we will go through Councillor"},{"t":15126,"text":"Caradona as a secondary Councillor Thompson and Council Gardner."},{"t":15204,"text":"Good afternoon everyone and welcome back to Committee of the"},{"t":15207,"text":"Whole for Victoria City Council for June 25th. We are"},{"t":15210,"text":"on the last substantive item of our Committee agenda. That"},{"t":15213,"text":"is item H1, an item of new business. This is"},{"t":15216,"text":"the Council Member Motion with regard to advocacy to the"},{"t":15219,"text":"province to restore better terms for property tax deferral programs"},{"t":15222,"text":"for Seniors and others in need. This was moved by"},{"t":15225,"text":"Councillor Hammond, seconded by Councillor Caradona, Councillor Hammond has made"},{"t":15228,"text":"his opening statement. Councillor Cardone is the seconder. Yes, thank"},{"t":15233,"text":"you. And thanks for the actually quite agree with the"},{"t":15239,"text":"motion and what was said. And I've met a number"},{"t":15243,"text":"of people in recent weeks, mostly seniors, but not entirely"},{"t":15247,"text":"who are using this program. I think before the changes"},{"t":15250,"text":"that were made to it, it was maybe perceived as"},{"t":15253,"text":"a little bit of a giveaway because it was prime"},{"t":15255,"text":"minus two, and now it's prime plus two, I think"},{"t":15257,"text":"maybe it swung a little bit too far the other"},{"t":15259,"text":"direction. I have a question actually, I don't know if"},{"t":15262,"text":"Staff can answer this, but maybe to our director of"},{"t":15265,"text":"finance, if you happen to know. I've always been very"},{"t":15268,"text":"curious to know if the information about who tends to"},{"t":15271,"text":"use this program. I've always assumed people use it until"},{"t":15274,"text":"they pass away, if they're seniors. I could be mistaken"},{"t":15277,"text":"in that. Does it occur that some people do this"},{"t":15279,"text":"for five years, and they settle their debts, and they"},{"t":15283,"text":"go back to paying their property taxes? Or is it"},{"t":15285,"text":"typically people were close to end of life? And they"},{"t":15287,"text":"just kind of run out the clock on their mortgage."},{"t":15290,"text":"Seafo Thompson, do you have that information? Through Mary, so"},{"t":15294,"text":"it is a provincially administered program, but what I can"},{"t":15297,"text":"say is that we do what people coming on and"},{"t":15300,"text":"off. Also one of the programs, of course, is for"},{"t":15304,"text":"children with families, and they can only be on that"},{"t":15307,"text":"part of the program while they still have the young"},{"t":15311,"text":"children. So there are some different rules for different people."},{"t":15314,"text":"So you can't speak specifically to it, but we do"},{"t":15317,"text":"have people coming on and off each. That's fair, that's"},{"t":15320,"text":"fair. I mean, I'm more sympathetic to the folks who"},{"t":15324,"text":"go on and off the program, because when you go"},{"t":15326,"text":"off the program, you now have a much bigger debt"},{"t":15329,"text":"that has to be settled. Whereas if you are sitting"},{"t":15331,"text":"on a 2 million dollar home and you just want"},{"t":15334,"text":"to defer your property taxes, and then when you pass"},{"t":15335,"text":"away, you know, you have a 50, 60, 70, 80,"},{"t":15338,"text":"000 dollar tax bill that comes due and your kid's"},{"t":15341,"text":"inherit a home that's just has a little bit less"},{"t":15343,"text":"equity. I feel a little bit less bad about that,"},{"t":15345,"text":"but I am really sympathetic to the people who for"},{"t":15347,"text":"whatever reason needed to go on and off this program."},{"t":15350,"text":"I guess my point of view on it is that"},{"t":15352,"text":"I think probably the fairest policy intervention would be for"},{"t":15355,"text":"the province to figure out a way for the program"},{"t":15358,"text":"to be cost recovery or cost neutral. I think, obviously,"},{"t":15362,"text":"the staff time to administer this program. So, you know,"},{"t":15367,"text":"the province has to assume the debt of these secured"},{"t":15371,"text":"loans, but also presumably it costs them some money. I"},{"t":15373,"text":"would like whatever the Prime Plus whatever ends up as"},{"t":15378,"text":"to essentially because recovery so that the province is neither"},{"t":15381,"text":"shelling out money for this program nor profiting off of"},{"t":15385,"text":"it. I don't know if that analysis is possible, but"},{"t":15388,"text":"I think the little bit of a middle ground here"},{"t":15390,"text":"where the program's a little bit fair. So I think"},{"t":15392,"text":"it's a totally reasonable ad because emotion. Thank you very"},{"t":15395,"text":"much. Councillor Thompson. Thanks, Mayor. I appreciate that this motion"},{"t":15404,"text":"before us is explicitly for low and moderate income eligible"},{"t":15408,"text":"homeowners. However, we do have a majority of Victoria residents"},{"t":15414,"text":"who are renters. And I think that we should probably,"},{"t":15420,"text":"the province should probably be doing something of equivalent value"},{"t":15423,"text":"for renters. So. I'd like to move an amendment. On"},{"t":15429,"text":"the first paragraph. After I've sent it to staff."},{"t":15451,"text":"I wonder, Councillor, if you are wedded to the last"},{"t":15456,"text":"phrase, who are the majority of Victoria residents? And the"},{"t":15459,"text":"only reason I ask that is because the rest of"},{"t":15461,"text":"it is perpetual in mandate and looks at a program"},{"t":15463,"text":"that is applicable to the whole province. Yeah, let's... So"},{"t":15467,"text":"maybe that you can speak to the fact that this"},{"t":15470,"text":"would have an impact on the majority of Victoria's residents."},{"t":15472,"text":"But in an advocacy motion, particularly as someone who's going"},{"t":15476,"text":"to sign this, I think it's probably, I think it's"},{"t":15480,"text":"more applicable to the rest of the motion if you"},{"t":15483,"text":"just have a program of equivalent financial value for renters."},{"t":15487,"text":"Yep, that sounds good. So we can delete everything after"},{"t":15489,"text":"renters. If you want to just delete everything after the"},{"t":15491,"text":"comma and just leave it as a period. And we'll"},{"t":15493,"text":"take that as an amendment and see if there is"},{"t":15496,"text":"a seconder. Do you want to sit here seconded? Never."},{"t":15503,"text":"Okay. Anyone else want to second this? What? Yes. Do"},{"t":15509,"text":"you want it seconded or do you want to just"},{"t":15510,"text":"go with that? I didn't move it. No, Councillor Thompson"},{"t":15515,"text":"moved it. I don't think so. He doesn't put his"},{"t":15519,"text":"hand up. Yeah, that's right. Councillor Thompson, with you amendment."},{"t":15523,"text":"Speak to your amendment, please. Yeah, I think that if"},{"t":15528,"text":"the province, as I've said, if the province is going"},{"t":15530,"text":"to be giving out a favorable financial terms for homeowners,"},{"t":15536,"text":"then I would expect equivalent favorable financial program for renters."},{"t":15541,"text":"I think it's just fair. Thank you. Councillor Caradona on"},{"t":15544,"text":"the amendment. Thanks, Mayor. I would have been happy to"},{"t":15547,"text":"leave it as is, but I don't see that this"},{"t":15550,"text":"amendment harms anything. It's in the advocacy motion, everything that"},{"t":15552,"text":"was in it stands, but it makes an additional ask"},{"t":15555,"text":"in a sense to ensure that there's equity so that"},{"t":15557,"text":"there's financial considerations for renters as well. So I think"},{"t":15560,"text":"I can support it. Thank you. Anyone else on the"},{"t":15564,"text":"Amendment Only Councillor Gardner? Thank you. I, first of all,"},{"t":15570,"text":"think this should be out of order, this amendment, because"},{"t":15572,"text":"it's about the tax deferral program on property tax. And"},{"t":15577,"text":"to try and put it for renters when the landlord"},{"t":15581,"text":"is paying the taxes. I mean, yes, it comes through"},{"t":15586,"text":"in rents, but it is not the same kind of"},{"t":15589,"text":"program. And it'll be almost impossible for the government track."},{"t":15592,"text":"And of course, we do have the rent bank. Which"},{"t":15595,"text":"has a particular purpose. And so I just find this"},{"t":15600,"text":"just financially, I think it would be impossible to do."},{"t":15604,"text":"And I think it would just, I mean, break us"},{"t":15609,"text":"all. Thank you. All right, Councillor Hemmon, on the amendment."},{"t":15614,"text":"Yes. Thanks Mayor. Someone was sending me some information was"},{"t":15619,"text":"indicating that the renter subsidy is to the tune of"},{"t":15625,"text":"they thought it was at first 200 million dollars and"},{"t":15627,"text":"they said, in fact, they were wrong. It was 300"},{"t":15629,"text":"million dollars. And then when I just quickly go online,"},{"t":15632,"text":"I see for renters that the rental assistant program, which"},{"t":15636,"text":"is monthly rental help for low - income families with"},{"t":15639,"text":"at least one dependent child, current income limit is 60,"},{"t":15642,"text":"000 dollars or less. Aid for elderly renters. So the"},{"t":15647,"text":"monthly rent help for eligible renters age 60 plus with"},{"t":15651,"text":"low to moderate incomes, current income limit listed by BC"},{"t":15654,"text":"housing is 40, 000 dollars annually. There's also the BC"},{"t":15658,"text":"renters tax credit. That's refundable tax credit of up to"},{"t":15661,"text":"400 dollars. I believe that's the one that was in"},{"t":15664,"text":"particularly someone was told me is the problem spends a"},{"t":15667,"text":"lot of money on, uh, for 2026, it starts reducing,"},{"t":15671,"text":"um, above 66, 189 dollars and reaches the maximum of"},{"t":15676,"text":"86, 000 and change. Um, there's also the rental bank."},{"t":15681,"text":"And so it's for that reason that the province already"},{"t":15684,"text":"does a lot of this. And the difficulty is, is"},{"t":15687,"text":"I don't want it to lude this. If we think"},{"t":15689,"text":"after some research of our own that the province does"},{"t":15693,"text":"not do enough when you consider all of the programs"},{"t":15695,"text":"that I just mentioned, um, then I'd be happy to,"},{"t":15699,"text":"um, come forward with an additional motion. The difficulty is"},{"t":15702,"text":"this is specifically, I must use the term harm that's"},{"t":15706,"text":"being done to low income seniors. And I don't want"},{"t":15710,"text":"these two things to be mixed up because the province"},{"t":15713,"text":"is already doing a lot for, for wrenchers, which I'm"},{"t":15715,"text":"pleased with. Thank you very much. Anybody else in the"},{"t":15718,"text":"amendment, Councillor Kim Councillor Gardner Councillor Lothan on the amendment."},{"t":15725,"text":"Oh my. Okay. Well, um, through the chair, I, uh,"},{"t":15729,"text":"am of mixed opinions on this, um, as a renter,"},{"t":15733,"text":"uh, and also I, as somebody who needs to govern,"},{"t":15737,"text":"um, I, I agree with the comments that this actually"},{"t":15740,"text":"muddies the waters. Um, and, and through no fault of,"},{"t":15745,"text":"of the folks who are wanting to do see this,"},{"t":15747,"text":"it's actually, um, again, a symptom of a system that"},{"t":15752,"text":"relies on equity, um, accrual, uh, which renter simply don't"},{"t":15756,"text":"have access to. And so fundamentally we're trying to shoehorn"},{"t":15760,"text":"something into a program that relies on, um, axioms around"},{"t":15766,"text":"equity and value that, um, yeah, the, the, the, uh,"},{"t":15771,"text":"categorios just don't blend. So, um, I will, uh, likely,"},{"t":15778,"text":"um, vote against this, which feels weird to say, but"},{"t":15782,"text":"we'll flag that if this, um, does not pass, I"},{"t":15785,"text":"will bring forward a motion arising, um, for renters and"},{"t":15789,"text":"an advocacy piece around financial value. Um, simply because again,"},{"t":15794,"text":"I just worry that it muddies the waters and may"},{"t":15797,"text":"actually hinder the province's ability to try to stitch together,"},{"t":15803,"text":"um, sets a programs that simply are incongruent. Yeah. That's"},{"t":15808,"text":"it for now. Thank you on the amendment. I'm going"},{"t":15812,"text":"to go to Loton and Coleman and then I have"},{"t":15814,"text":"two people who wish to speak for a second time."},{"t":15817,"text":"Thank you, Mayor, through you. Um, I appreciate the place"},{"t":15821,"text":"that this is coming from, but I do agree that"},{"t":15825,"text":"this muddies the water for the intention of the original"},{"t":15830,"text":"motion. I would, I don't, and I'm not prepared to"},{"t":15834,"text":"vote on this because I don't know enough about it."},{"t":15836,"text":"I, I'd like to do some research and I would"},{"t":15839,"text":"actually, if this is necessary and important, which it very"},{"t":15843,"text":"well might be, I think that someone or the mover"},{"t":15848,"text":"or whoever could bring a Council member motion to that"},{"t":15851,"text":"effect and something that we can, you know, do some"},{"t":15854,"text":"research, have some time to read and prepare for. I'd"},{"t":15858,"text":"even have a hard time supporting emotiona today on this"},{"t":15862,"text":"for that same reason. I just don't have enough information."},{"t":15865,"text":"So I appreciate the sentiment, but I don't think we're"},{"t":15869,"text":"ready to add this. And I do also think that"},{"t":15873,"text":"when we're doing advocacy motions is just good to stick"},{"t":15876,"text":"to one ask. And, um, cross our fingers that we"},{"t":15879,"text":"get something from it. So thanks for everyone who's bringing."},{"t":15882,"text":"This is all really important. But, um, unfortunately I can't"},{"t":15885,"text":"support the amendment. Thanks. Thank you Councillor Coleman on the"},{"t":15890,"text":"amendment. Thank you. It's an interesting issue to bring forward."},{"t":15895,"text":"I don't think it works with property tax deferment program,"},{"t":15900,"text":"partly because we have rent control in one sense in"},{"t":15903,"text":"this province. And the property tax deferment program particularly is"},{"t":15908,"text":"its articulated for seniors recognise as a reality that property"},{"t":15912,"text":"values in this region have doubled about every nine to"},{"t":15915,"text":"10 years for 140 years. An assessments have done the"},{"t":15919,"text":"same thing. So tax is naturally go up. Um, that"},{"t":15922,"text":"doesn't apply in the same way to the rental program"},{"t":15925,"text":"because of rent control. So I think there is an"},{"t":15929,"text":"opportunity to bring something not equivalent financial value. But an"},{"t":15936,"text":"equivalency for renters is different than tax deferment. So I"},{"t":15940,"text":"think that this doesn't work there. But I look forward"},{"t":15943,"text":"to a discussion at some point when either motion or"},{"t":15946,"text":"rising, but I think it's probably a future Council member"},{"t":15949,"text":"motion. Thank you. Thank you for that. Uh, anyone who"},{"t":15952,"text":"hasn't yet spoken wished to do so. I don't think"},{"t":15955,"text":"so. Councillor Gardner, Councillor Thompson. Thank you. It's a quick"},{"t":15959,"text":"summary. And thank you very much for the comments from"},{"t":15961,"text":"everyone else, especially on the different kinds of programs. And"},{"t":15964,"text":"of course the, uh, rent control makes a big difference."},{"t":15967,"text":"But also when we looked at the data that was"},{"t":15969,"text":"provided to us, and I think Councillor Hahn has spoke"},{"t":15973,"text":"to. And if you didn't, it was provided to us"},{"t":15974,"text":"anyway by the, uh, finance director. And that is, there's"},{"t":15978,"text":"about 2, 000 people who use this program. And if"},{"t":15984,"text":"we start to talk about renters, we're talking many more"},{"t":15986,"text":"thousands. I just can't even imagine how one would do"},{"t":15988,"text":"it. And so the, even the 2000, it's not a"},{"t":15993,"text":"means test. Because of course the asset value with a"},{"t":15997,"text":"senior, uh, something else. And I'll say more after we"},{"t":16001,"text":"deal with the amendment because I have more comments in"},{"t":16003,"text":"general. Thank you. Councillor Thompson on the amendment. Sure. Just"},{"t":16007,"text":"to respond to a few of the concerns raised that"},{"t":16012,"text":"was mentioned of various, uh, programs that provide support for"},{"t":16016,"text":"renters. I guess we should probably mention then the homeowner's"},{"t":16020,"text":"grant, which provides about a billion dollars a year of"},{"t":16024,"text":"subsidy to homeowners, as well as the lifetime capital gains"},{"t":16027,"text":"exemption, which is many more billions per year. Uh, in"},{"t":16033,"text":"respect of. The, whether this is somehow muddying the waters"},{"t":16038,"text":"around the property tax deferment, it's pretty clear that the"},{"t":16041,"text":"property tax determine is one thing, uh, and a program"},{"t":16044,"text":"of equivalent financial value is something different. I can't see"},{"t":16047,"text":"the province getting confused about that. It seems pretty simple."},{"t":16054,"text":"And it's, you know, whether it's something the province can"},{"t":16057,"text":"figure out is up to the province. Maybe they say"},{"t":16059,"text":"no. Maybe they say, Oh, there is a thing that"},{"t":16061,"text":"we could do actually. I don't, I don't see why"},{"t":16063,"text":"we would need to prejudge that before we can discuss"},{"t":16066,"text":"it. Uh, so I'm happy to stand up for renters"},{"t":16069,"text":"on this one. And thanks, Amir. Thank you very much."},{"t":16072,"text":"Anybody else on the amendment. So you can be also"},{"t":16076,"text":"the amendment in favor of the amendment. Okay. In opposition"},{"t":16084,"text":"to the amendment. Sorry. I said in favor of the"},{"t":16088,"text":"amendment, I saw no hands go up. Okay. Councillor Dell,"},{"t":16092,"text":"Councillor Caradona. Councillor Thompson. In opposition to the amendment, Councillor"},{"t":16098,"text":"Kim, Council Loughton, myself, Councillor Coleman and Councillor Gardner and"},{"t":16102,"text":"Councillor Hamilt. So the amendment fails, but I do remind"},{"t":16107,"text":"folks of this several suggestions about ways to bring it"},{"t":16109,"text":"forward. And I would suggest that it would be a"},{"t":16112,"text":"Council member motion at a future meeting. Meanwhile, Councillor Thompson,"},{"t":16116,"text":"you still have the floor on the main motion. That's"},{"t":16119,"text":"it. Okay. Councillor Gardner on the main motion. Thank you."},{"t":16126,"text":"I was happy for this to be on consent. Anyway,"},{"t":16129,"text":"as I consider the revised provincial tax deferral program and"},{"t":16133,"text":"I have heard from residents, uh, have used the program."},{"t":16138,"text":"The compounding interest monthly, one word came to mind for"},{"t":16141,"text":"me. Useree. And from Google, you three is the act"},{"t":16146,"text":"of lending money in an unreasonable or illegally high interest"},{"t":16150,"text":"rate. It serves as a form of financial exploitation taking"},{"t":16153,"text":"advantage of vulnerable borrowers. And many of our seniors are"},{"t":16157,"text":"vulnerable. No matter what type of housing they live in,"},{"t":16161,"text":"it truly are. And so was the former program generous?"},{"t":16164,"text":"Yes. And I think a bit too much. I always"},{"t":16166,"text":"thought that. But the changes that took the have taken"},{"t":16170,"text":"this program to a different place. Monthly combo interest is"},{"t":16173,"text":"just simply a financial grab. And one must ask, is"},{"t":16177,"text":"this government targeting seniors who want to stay in their"},{"t":16180,"text":"homes? Homes they have lived in for decades. Recent reports"},{"t":16184,"text":"indicate that home ownership monthly costs with insurance and utilities"},{"t":16188,"text":"and everything else is over 40 percent of income for"},{"t":16192,"text":"seniors who are in homes. And again, what I've mentioned"},{"t":16199,"text":"many times is our grey tsunami of the baby boomer"},{"t":16202,"text":"elderly is no longer grey. They are white. And the"},{"t":16206,"text":"government is not prepared. We do not have public care"},{"t":16208,"text":"homes that will satisfy people, not satisfied, but that people"},{"t":16214,"text":"can go to. We already have people who can wait"},{"t":16216,"text":"many years to try and find a care home. And"},{"t":16219,"text":"the private care homes cost what. 10 to 25 to"},{"t":16223,"text":"30, 000 dollars a month. So even selling a house"},{"t":16227,"text":"might, you know, the person might outlive even the money"},{"t":16230,"text":"from their house as they try to get care because"},{"t":16232,"text":"we don't have publicly funded care. And this is a"},{"t":16236,"text":"very serious matter that is counsel. Island health and the"},{"t":16240,"text":"province have not come to terms with. Especially our city"},{"t":16245,"text":"and parts of it. Well, it doesn't matter where you"},{"t":16246,"text":"are in the city. Have a very much an aging"},{"t":16249,"text":"population. And I very much support the original motion here"},{"t":16255,"text":"because it won't do much for many people, but it"},{"t":16258,"text":"will for some. And of course we as a city"},{"t":16262,"text":"do not lose money because the province advances the property"},{"t":16267,"text":"tax to us. And they do the full administration of"},{"t":16270,"text":"putting the lien on the property. So it does not"},{"t":16274,"text":"cost us anything in the way of our own taxpayers"},{"t":16277,"text":"paying for it directly. It does cost indirectly that the"},{"t":16280,"text":"province does it. So I think we've been very, very"},{"t":16284,"text":"good motion that we have before us now. So we"},{"t":16288,"text":"look at it and take it back not to where"},{"t":16289,"text":"it was, but to take it back to being something"},{"t":16292,"text":"reasonable. Thank you. Thank you very much. Anybody else on"},{"t":16296,"text":"this motion. Not seeing anyone else. All those in favor."},{"t":16301,"text":"Oops. Sorry. Councillor Kim. Yep. Sorry to do that too,"},{"t":16306,"text":"Mayor. Um, through you. I have been following this program"},{"t":16311,"text":"for years. And, uh, actually, um, make an argument going"},{"t":16318,"text":"both ways for and against this motion. Um, the, the"},{"t":16321,"text":"piece that ultimately puts me in favor of this motion,"},{"t":16324,"text":"however, is that this council has also advocated for UBI,"},{"t":16329,"text":"universal basic income. Um, what we are ultimately doing here"},{"t":16333,"text":"is trying to, um, push the, uh, tweak the dials,"},{"t":16339,"text":"um, on a program within a system, a tax system."},{"t":16343,"text":"That is just very poorly done. Um, I often joke"},{"t":16347,"text":"that the two hills I will die on, our libraries"},{"t":16349,"text":"and tax reform. And this is an example of why,"},{"t":16352,"text":"uh, fundamentally homeowners, um, who are now low income seniors"},{"t":16357,"text":"and modern income seniors have been failed by various levels"},{"t":16360,"text":"of government who oversee income and income tax, i. e."},{"t":16364,"text":"the province and the feds. And so, uh, on, on"},{"t":16368,"text":"that note, I wonder the effectiveness of this one really"},{"t":16373,"text":"my, my spirit and ethos is about the redistribution of"},{"t":16376,"text":"social wealth. And Prime Plus 2 is functionally that. However,"},{"t":16382,"text":"given that there are, uh, folks out there who are"},{"t":16384,"text":"struggling like my own father on limited fixed income. I"},{"t":16390,"text":"do feel like, well, what else has counsel done to"},{"t":16393,"text":"fill the gap in this broader system? And again, going"},{"t":16396,"text":"back to the fact that we've advocated on things like"},{"t":16398,"text":"UBI. And also some of us spoken often about things"},{"t":16404,"text":"like increasing PWG payments, um, increasing CPPOAS and so on"},{"t":16409,"text":"and so forth. Um, I feel comfortable taking this position"},{"t":16413,"text":"in favor of this Council Member motion. With the history"},{"t":16416,"text":"of Council's earlier advocacy. Thanks. Thank you very much. Anybody"},{"t":16422,"text":"else. Not seeing anyone else. So this moved seconded and"},{"t":16428,"text":"discussed at some length. All those in favor. Is anyone"},{"t":16433,"text":"opposed. That is unanimous. Thank you very much for that."},{"t":16438,"text":"Uh, I would suggest, as I mentioned earlier, not a"},{"t":16441,"text":"motion rising on the rental aspect of this, but in"},{"t":16443,"text":"fact, some thought put into, um, a bit of a"},{"t":16446,"text":"background for a specific program. So I would look forward"},{"t":16449,"text":"to that at a future meeting as a Council Member"},{"t":16451,"text":"Motion. Not concludes the business that we have for today."},{"t":16457,"text":"We'd have nothing for closed at committee. So I would"},{"t":16459,"text":"look for a motion to adjourn. Thanks Councillor Coleman, second"},{"t":16463,"text":"of my Councillor Kim. All those in favor, anybody opposed."},{"t":16467,"text":"Let us just take as long as it takes for"},{"t":16469,"text":"Council for a staff rather to move us into daytime"},{"t":16471,"text":"council. So we'll just take five minutes."}],"words":41086,"fetchedAt":"2026-10-03T05:00:33.994Z"}