{"videoId":"iEznRPqNyTY","source":"serpapi","segments":[{"t":33,"text":"Check. Check. Check. Got to check."},{"t":77,"text":"Just checking out our live streams."},{"t":81,"text":"One, two,"},{"t":185,"text":"Check. Check. Check. One to three."},{"t":604,"text":"Okay, good evening everyone and welcome to a regularly scheduled council meeting for August uh sorry September the 8th uh"},{"t":611,"text":"2026. Uh as we call the meeting to order, we just like to acknowledge that we do our business on the traditional territories of the coast and stray salish peoples and specifically we"},{"t":619,"text":"recognize the Kongan speaking people known today as a song he's a squamalt nations that their historic connections continue to this day. Uh our first order of business is approval of the agenda."},{"t":630,"text":"Can I have them move? Thank you. Moved and seconded. Any comments on the agenda? Seeing none, all those in favor?"},{"t":636,"text":"Any opposed? We have three sets of minutes for adoption. Um, two, one from July 20th and two from July 27th. Moved"},{"t":643,"text":"and second for approval. Is there any changes, corrections, or amendments to those minutes?"},{"t":647,"text":"Seeing none, all those in favor? Any opposed? None opposed. Uh, my comments."},{"t":653,"text":"Well, it's nice to see a reasonably full house. Uh, folks here, uh, welcome back after a summer break. We haven't been here since the end of July. Um, hope you"},{"t":661,"text":"had a chance to refresh and recharge, uh, the last few weeks and had some downtime. Um, I just want to acknowledge all of the hard work done by park and"},{"t":669,"text":"culture through the summer, including the yoga in the park and music in the park and all the events that go on. Um, including uh some of the popup uh uh"},{"t":676,"text":"concerts and so forth that happened as late as just this week. Um, also just wanted to make a reminder to everybody that uh kids are back in school really"},{"t":684,"text":"in forced tomorrow and so there's uh just an extra dose of caution for those driving on the roads uh or riding your bikes. just pay attention that there's"},{"t":692,"text":"perhaps some small and wobbly uh riders out there as well just to be careful of of of them on the roads. Um just want to"},{"t":699,"text":"acknowledge or just remind people as well has been posted but sometimes missed. There is going to be a scheduled power outage at the uh B Street"},{"t":707,"text":"Recreation Center tomorrow uh from 9:00 till 5:00 is a scheduled outage as there's some hydro replacement going on."},{"t":713,"text":"Uh so just if you have plans to be there uh get there very early in the morning um uh or don't. Um what else do I have"},{"t":722,"text":"here? Uh also a reminder it's the business improvement association of course hosts the uh the night market."},{"t":727,"text":"The final one of the season is happening tomorrow night or tomorrow afternoon. So hope to hope everybody gets out to see it. I think the weather looks really"},{"t":733,"text":"good for it. Um also there's a heritage talk. We have a presentation coming up from the Heritage Foundation. But one of the great things they do is these"},{"t":741,"text":"heritage talks. So, tomorrow night at Windsor Park starting at 7:00 is a talk on the electric street cars of Early Oak Bay and Victoria. So, uh always a good"},{"t":750,"text":"uh good talk and the speaker this time is excellent. There's another one put in your calendars for September 30th as well. Uh next week is Union of BC"},{"t":757,"text":"Municipalities Conference which and I think majority this year we always have a different mix each year of counselors uh make it to it's a place to pass resolutions to and speak to ministers."},{"t":767,"text":"Um and so that's happening next week. We do have a resol number of a couple of resolutions, but I think a really critical one is one that's asking the"},{"t":775,"text":"province to rethink their approach to salt regulations. Not very exciting, but costs in the orders of hundreds of thousands of dollars every year to uh to"},{"t":784,"text":"manage our soil in our ground because of this change of regulations. So, we're hoping that might uh change that for Oceanside communities. It passed at ABICC and hopefully it'll pass at EBCM."},{"t":794,"text":"Um, and finally, I just want to acknowledge uh Faith Collins uh who uh was a former counselor in Oak Bay in 91"},{"t":801,"text":"to 93 uh passed away in August 22nd. Uh she was a longtime resident. She contributed a great deal in council but also outside of that in the community. I"},{"t":810,"text":"know I spoke to her many times on issues from Oak Bay Lodge where she happened to have been the uh on the old board of directors and had a lot of firsthand"},{"t":817,"text":"knowledge of how that was run. um to land use planning and development in the uplands both directly and and through the Uplands uh neighborhood association."},{"t":825,"text":"Uh she survived by her husband Jim, her children Beth and James and and a fairly large extended family. I just wanted to take a moment on behalf of the I think"},{"t":832,"text":"pretty several people in this room new faith um just to acknowledge the work that she did for the community and uh and just thank her for her service to"},{"t":841,"text":"the community. That concludes my remarks. Uh our next order of business."},{"t":846,"text":"I think we have some new faces here. So I'll just provide some context. Uh we have up to 30 minutes for a public comment and question period. Uh this is"},{"t":854,"text":"an opportunity for people who wish to talk to council. This is not for items that are on the agenda. We'll have opportunity uh to come forward and and and make comments on those items that"},{"t":862,"text":"allow for public input. Um but uh any of the other items that might be of public interest uh uh or otherwise related to"},{"t":869,"text":"Oak Bay. So, u I'm assuming some since we have a fairly full room, there's probably some people here who wish to speak to council on some of some of the broader topics. Uh, so I'll provide that"},{"t":878,"text":"opportunity at this point. Is there anybody uh in the room or online? If you're online, you can raise your hand through the Zoom app um to uh to speak"},{"t":885,"text":"to council. So, again, this is items not on the agenda tonight, but So, yep. Come on up. You can be our our demo. Uh so,"},{"t":895,"text":"the process is just state your name and the municipality of residence. I don't have to give your address, just the municipality is fine. And then you have up to three minutes to talk to council."},{"t":904,"text":"Welcome."},{"t":904,"text":"Perfect. Uh thank you, council. Um my name is Evan Brown, longtime resident of O Bay, husband and father to two"},{"t":912,"text":"children. Um and I first wanted to thank everyone, each of you for your service over the last four years. It's a it's a"},{"t":919,"text":"tough job to be up there and and I've been involved a little bit more over the last year and I really appreciate what each and each one of you does and helps"},{"t":926,"text":"this community grow and [snorts] and be what it is and be great. Uh tonight I just wanted to quickly speak about the"},{"t":933,"text":"Upland's neighborhood which is as you know a a place of remarkable beauty."},{"t":939,"text":"It's a place within a bay that deserves careful stewardship."},{"t":944,"text":"And as many of you know, in 2019, the Uplands was designated a national historic site of Canada."},{"t":951,"text":"Mr. B, why don't you just move the microphone just maybe six inches away from your mouth? That'll get rid of that little crackliness. Okay, sit back there. Yeah, perfect. Is that better? Yeah."},{"t":959,"text":"Um, and this recognition carries responsibility and the decisions we make today will determine how much of that"},{"t":968,"text":"character survives um for those who follow us."},{"t":973,"text":"So careful stewardship means understanding what makes the upland special before making changes that could permanently alter it. It means caring"},{"t":982,"text":"for green spaces, respecting its historic landscape, and protecting the natural beauty that people come here to enjoy."},{"t":990,"text":"It also means thinking beyond our lifetimes. When future generations walk through the uplands, what will they find?"},{"t":999,"text":"Will they have the same opportunity to enjoy its scenery and appreciate its history as we've had?"},{"t":1005,"text":"And the answer really depends on the choices we make now."},{"t":1009,"text":"As our community grows and changes, we should bring care, patience, and long-term perspective to those choices."},{"t":1018,"text":"a place that's taken generations to become what it deserves um requires decisions made with equal thoughtfulness."},{"t":1029,"text":"So, I hope this council and the ones to follow will prioritize nature and beauty over development of this precious neighborhood. Thank you."},{"t":1038,"text":"Thank you very much for your comments."},{"t":1041,"text":"Uh is there another any other speakers who wish to address council?"},{"t":1048,"text":"Come on up. I know it feels intimidating, but we try not to make it intimidating. It's just uh Oh, uh,"},{"t":1056,"text":"welcome. Just if you push the button in the microphone, it turns the center button, it turns it on and just your name and municipality and you can address council. Welcome."},{"t":1064,"text":"Thank you, mayor. My name is Anne Hannam and I'm a resident of Oak Bay and I also"},{"t":1072,"text":"support putting forward the NOM in into today's meeting to discuss the"},{"t":1079,"text":"Uplands Neighborhood Association proposal for how we can balance finding"},{"t":1086,"text":"responsible housing in a time of need, but also maintaining the beauty and the integrity of the neighborhood. My"},{"t":1095,"text":"husband and I are here and it's hard to be more eloquent than Evan was. So, I"},{"t":1102,"text":"will just let you know we are supportive of this. Thank you."},{"t":1108,"text":"Thank you. I think probably just as an order of information because I think people in the audience may not understand what the NOM is. Uh we've had"},{"t":1116,"text":"a number of letters uh related to a request for a notice of motion and my understanding is there will be one that'll be read into the record today"},{"t":1123,"text":"but not discussed uh under has the opportunity to do that under new business that's at the end of the meeting. You don't have to stick around to the end. We won't be debating that if"},{"t":1131,"text":"it does get read in. It'll be at the next meeting. But so the comments are welcome on it. But you're also welcome. I want you guys are present."},{"t":1138,"text":"I'm sorry. If you just name municipality of residence and then you can speak."},{"t":1142,"text":"Please push this. No, you're it's all you're good to go."},{"t":1145,"text":"So, again, Steve Clark, uh I live on 3225 Beach Drive, uh right next to"},{"t":1153,"text":"Rivington. We've been there 34 years. Uh we've got a pretty good handle on the neighborhood. Uh this time of the year,"},{"t":1162,"text":"the long weekend, the tourist buses or down beach driving, all that. It's wonderful to see people on their"},{"t":1169,"text":"bicycles and all that. Uh you don't need me to tell you a bunch of stuff about how to do your job. It's the other way"},{"t":1178,"text":"around. Uh Mayor, uh but after being there a long time and you guys are"},{"t":1185,"text":"certainly welcome to borrow it, but Upland was uh 1907. David Black's house was the show home riffington, you know."},{"t":1196,"text":"Uh there's all kinds of I marked them for you if you need them. I'll give it to Hazel. The uh the regulations, the"},{"t":1204,"text":"laws, bylaws, the outcomes. First section is about who the the uh"},{"t":1211,"text":"architects are. Uh it's interesting to see how the laws and the economics of"},{"t":1217,"text":"that neighborhood has come and gone, you know. It's it's uh it's a fascinating read, you know, and there's lots of"},{"t":1225,"text":"indexes at the back, so it's not as thick a read. You It's not full of big words, you know. There's watermelon in"},{"t":1232,"text":"there and semi-trail truck. So, I figured the smartest thing to do, shut up. Uh"},{"t":1240,"text":"I mean, it'll tell you about 1907, Tuxedo, Marston, Montreal, all those places. But I wanted to just read you a"},{"t":1248,"text":"quote that at the beginning of of the section where they're built and it was done by John Olmstead."},{"t":1256,"text":"Uh the most important motive of the work of designing would be"},{"t":1264,"text":"to lay out the subdivision so as not to destroy but on the contrary to make the"},{"t":1272,"text":"most of the natural beauty of the property. That's all I ask. just just do that, you know? I mean, you're only"},{"t":1280,"text":"going to do so much for the the cost of living for affordable housing in Uplands anyhow. Uh"},{"t":1288,"text":"but yeah, I thank you for your time and I won't take any more of it. Appreciate it. Thank you very much, Mr. Clark. And yes, if anybody Well, it is a bit of a"},{"t":1297,"text":"read, I will say, but that Larry Macan book, imagining uplands, is a is a fascinating history and incredibly well researched. Yeah, it's really well done."},{"t":1306,"text":"Yeah, I'll give it to you later. Thank you, Mr. Clark."},{"t":1310,"text":"Anyone else wish to speak to uh members of council?"},{"t":1319,"text":"Oh, come on up. I always leave a pregnant pause to make sure people get over their discomfort."},{"t":1324,"text":"My foot's going to sleep. [laughter] I'm Harold Turnham. Um, rhymes with Burnham, the new English PM. Same spelling."},{"t":1334,"text":"Um, my family has lived at 3180 Norfolk Road since 1981."},{"t":1342,"text":"So that's 45 years. So I tops the previous chap. So we had four children,"},{"t":1349,"text":"raised them there. We're down to one now still behind us, a special needs child."},{"t":1355,"text":"Um, we we have a lovely garden there. We've been on garden tours and that sort of"},{"t":1361,"text":"thing. Um, The concern is that"},{"t":1369,"text":"the the subdivision was designed to be half acre and bigger lots, big gardens offering some some kind of privacy. U"},{"t":1379,"text":"what I'm concerned about now is with the other with the processes that are suggested as to either subdivision and strat tidling and that sort of thing."},{"t":1388,"text":"Um, it's it's kind of to me it seems it's going to be a version of paving paradise to put up a parking lot and I'm"},{"t":1397,"text":"hope you can take every step to prevent that. I appreciate that as Oak Bay I do not think for a minute Oak Bay Council"},{"t":1404,"text":"would be trying to dismantle the uplands. I understand the pressures you're under from the provincial government. I hope you'll find a way to to resist those. Thank you."},{"t":1417,"text":"Thank you very much, Mr. Turn them. Anybody else wish to speak to council?"},{"t":1423,"text":"Again, this is not items on the agenda, but just other items of general interest to the community. No, please come forward."},{"t":1440,"text":"The same process, just name just your municipality. You don't have to get the address. Very good."},{"t":1446,"text":"Um, good evening. My name is Ian Weatherdton and I'm here this evening with my wife Arlene. Uh, and we live in"},{"t":1454,"text":"the Uplands. Uh, Mr. Mayor and counselors. Thank you for this opportunity to speak to you about densification"},{"t":1460,"text":"uh, in the Uplands and we request that the UNA's proposal be raised as a notice of motion at this meeting. Uh, by way of"},{"t":1469,"text":"background, we have a slightly different history than 34 45 years. Um, we actually just recently"},{"t":1477,"text":"uh moved back to Canada after living overseas for 20 years. We saw some extraordinary uh neighborhoods. Uh, we"},{"t":1486,"text":"lived in a number of different countries. Um, and we chose the uplands for its natural beauty. It is truly"},{"t":1493,"text":"extraordinary and we have that here for everybody to enjoy. Um, we were attracted to the Uplands uh due to the"},{"t":1502,"text":"uh the park light setting, the curving streets, large lots, and the fact that John Olmstead designed the neighborhood"},{"t":1509,"text":"around nature. That was the way that the concept was, and I think we should continue that. And every day that that"},{"t":1518,"text":"we live in the Uplands, we truly do feel grateful. Um, we understand also the the pressures that you're under um and Oak"},{"t":1527,"text":"Bay is under uh in order to uh deal with housing challenges and we believe the uplands does need to be part of that"},{"t":1535,"text":"solution. But at the same time, we need to preserve the uplands and its national historic designation. Uh we believe the"},{"t":1543,"text":"UNA's proposal strikes the right balance between densification and preservation."},{"t":1550,"text":"The proposal was developed by incorporating Olmstead's design principles and has the firm support of"},{"t":1556,"text":"UNA members. Personally, my wife and I, we support the proposal because it promotes diversity with opportunities"},{"t":1565,"text":"for students, families, caregivers, intergenerational living, and other rental opportunities."},{"t":1572,"text":"We believe this would result in a much more vibrant and sustainable community when compared to develop development"},{"t":1579,"text":"options that are creating three plus million dollar housing that is out of reach of most people. A specific example"},{"t":1588,"text":"that we're all living including council is 2830 and 2850 Landsown Road and in"},{"t":1596,"text":"fact we live two doors down from that proposed development. Uh while council has rejected that proposal twice given"},{"t":1604,"text":"its impact on the neighborhood, the developer has requested a judicial review. This uncertainty is not good for"},{"t":1612,"text":"anybody. Uh implementation of the UNA's proposal provides go forward clarity for"},{"t":1619,"text":"all stakeholders including homeowners, developers, the planning department, and you as council."},{"t":1627,"text":"So in summary, we encourage council to introduce the notice of motion at this meeting and ultimately projecting"},{"t":1634,"text":"forward maybe been too presumptuous. We do hope that council exercises its rights under the special powers act to"},{"t":1642,"text":"implement the proposal to preserve the uplands which is worth protecting for everyone's benefit."},{"t":1648,"text":"Mr. Weather, I'm going to have to ask you to wrap it up. That's three minutes."},{"t":1651,"text":"Um, and if I may, um, one of our, um, one of my neighbors, he wanted to be here to speak and he prepared written"},{"t":1660,"text":"remarks. Am I able to read those remarks on his behalf?"},{"t":1665,"text":"Given that this is, if if the if the notice of motion is made, then that will come back next term. I I would just suggest you just submit them by email and they'll form part of the agenda package in that way."},{"t":1674,"text":"Okay, very good. I'll do that."},{"t":1675,"text":"Just out of courtesy because I think I want to make sure everybody has a chance to speak tonight. So, get them either way. Thank you."},{"t":1683,"text":"Please come forward."},{"t":1688,"text":"You probably got the handle by now. Just name a municipality and off you go. Mine will be under three minutes."},{"t":1693,"text":"Oh, I've pushed the button. Sorry. You I am. Mine will be under three minutes."},{"t":1697,"text":"[laughter]"},{"t":1698,"text":"Uh my name is Christine McLolin. I live in South Oak Bay. I thought I'd come in to give a perspective about someone who doesn't live in Upland. Uh, I'm here to"},{"t":1707,"text":"voice my concerns regarding the new builds in my community, such as the proposal for 2830 and 2850 Landstone Road in the Uplands. I do not live in"},{"t":1716,"text":"the Uplands, nor do I know any homeowners in the Uplands. I do, however, walk through the Uplands commuting from work. I'm concerned with the size and type of the proposed"},{"t":1724,"text":"building. The Uplands is a shared space that many from Oak Bay neighborhoods drive, bike, or walk through to enjoy the beauty of the park-like setting. The"},{"t":1732,"text":"proposal sets a precedence that I believe to be short-sighted, especially when other options for infill housing with existing structures exist. It would"},{"t":1740,"text":"maintain the integrity of such a unique urban area that benefits the environment from carbon capture and as a shared urban park-like space to the community."},{"t":1749,"text":"We cannot bring it back. There are examples where infill housing respects and protects our beautiful surroundings such as the municipality as West"},{"t":1756,"text":"Vancouver. We're not bystanders. how it's done is in our hands and I look to council to be the stewards and visionaries of our unique community in"},{"t":1765,"text":"maintaining it for us. Thank you for your time. Thank you, M. McLaclin. Anybody else wish to speak to council?"},{"t":1773,"text":"Again, I'll I'll make a call if anybody's at home and wants to do it, please come into the Zoom call and raise your hand or you can call the 855 number that's on the agenda package and hit"},{"t":1781,"text":"star9 to raise your hand. Uh with that, back to the table. Same pro. No, it's actually turned on already, but so just municipality."},{"t":1789,"text":"Thank you. Uh my name is Jonathan Horlick. I'm a resident of Oak Bay and I'm here in my capacity as a director of"},{"t":1797,"text":"the Uplands Neighborhood Association uh which I'll refer to as the UNA. Uh the UNA continues uh to oppose the way"},{"t":1806,"text":"that Oak Bay Council has implemented the proincially mandated changes to the Oak Bay zoning bylaw that are intended to increase housing density in the uplands."},{"t":1817,"text":"The zoning bylaw permits up to four dwelling units and up to four dwelling buildings on most lots in the uplands."},{"t":1825,"text":"This is encouraging proposals to subdivide uplands lots primarily by using building strata."},{"t":1834,"text":"Two of the three applications made to date for subdivision of Upland's lots using building stratas have been approved by council."},{"t":1844,"text":"Subdivision proposals fundamentally change John C. Olmstead's nationally recognized landscape architectural plan"},{"t":1853,"text":"for the uplands. UNA believes that there is a way to preserve Homestead's outstanding landscape"},{"t":1861,"text":"architectural plan and add additional housing in the uplands without subdivision. This is all explained in"},{"t":1870,"text":"our proposal which we communicated to you on May 31st of this year. Uh UNA representatives have been busy meeting"},{"t":1878,"text":"with all of you but one and with the director of community building and planning uh to explain the UNA proposal"},{"t":1886,"text":"to answer questions and we believe that that effort has resulted in our proposal being well understood by each of you"},{"t":1894,"text":"with whom we spoken and by OPE staff. So what needs to happen next is for Oak Bay Council to discuss the UNA proposal. Uh"},{"t":1904,"text":"we have been told that to discuss it, it requires an introduction of a notice of motion by at least one member of council"},{"t":1911,"text":"and our request is uh that at least one of you please introduce a notice of motion during this meeting so that the"},{"t":1918,"text":"UNA proposal can be discussed by Oak Bay Council when it next meets on September 21st. That's our request. Please. Thank you."},{"t":1927,"text":"Thank you."},{"t":1929,"text":"Just one very slight uh clarification of process. Uh notice the motion can be put forward and do expect one to be to be"},{"t":1937,"text":"raised tonight but when it is moved uh it has to be seconded for discussion. So just that is the only clarity."},{"t":1943,"text":"Procedurally it doesn't matter. Uh usually as a courtesy we do that but just uh that is the process. Anybody else wish to speak to council?"},{"t":1955,"text":"I'm going to give one last chance if anybody's I know people are sometimes nervous about coming forward. It's a strange thing to sit at a desk and talk to a bunch of people standing around to raise DS. But anybody else?"},{"t":1967,"text":"Okay. Well, thank you very much all of you for your comments. Um given that there's been a number of people here for one item and that item if if there is a"},{"t":1976,"text":"notice of motion raised, I do expect there to be we'll just be reading it into the record and that will be it tonight. So if you don't want to sit through the agenda tonight, you don't"},{"t":1983,"text":"have to. Um uh we're going to have a presentation next. I'm just going to ask that you don't all do a mass exodus during the presentation. Either you can"},{"t":1990,"text":"leave now or after u but just as a courtesy we'll do that. So with that we'll move on to the section of presentations tonight. We're pleased to"},{"t":1997,"text":"have the Heritage Foundation here with us. Uh I believe we have Robert Taylor, Bill Hannah, and Jane Hall uh joining us"},{"t":2005,"text":"this evening. I'm going to hand this over. We have uh uh we assigned council liaison to uh to work with our various groups including the heritage"},{"t":2013,"text":"foundation. I'll give this over to councelor Appleton who is our council liaison for the heritage foundation."},{"t":2019,"text":"Uh thank you worship. I'll be very brief. Um it is my pleasure to serve as the liaison to the heritage foundation."},{"t":2024,"text":"The foundation uh uh their work in the community is is well known and well understood, very well respected. Um I as"},{"t":2032,"text":"I've mentioned to council many times, every time that I participate in the foundation meetings, I learn something new and I'm I'm always struck by their uh motivation and the amount of"},{"t":2041,"text":"knowledge that's contained within the organization. So, it's my great great pleasure to serve with them. Um, council may recall that um it's been a couple of"},{"t":2050,"text":"years now that council has sort of worked to uh create uh better definitions between the historical uh"},{"t":2058,"text":"heritage commission and the heritage foundation. uh make those roles and responsibilities uh more clear uh and to"},{"t":2066,"text":"uh essentially create the uh a strongly understood working relationship between the heritage foundation and the commission and how both of those relate"},{"t":2075,"text":"to the district. What the foundation has recognized is that there is need for uh updated bylaws that refer to how the"},{"t":2084,"text":"foundation will work directly with the district again with rules and responsibilities and how the foundation will be composed and the activities that"},{"t":2091,"text":"the foundation will undertake. So the members of the foundation have uh undertaken a ton of work in supported by"},{"t":2099,"text":"staff to update the bylaws. Um, I have been a appreciative bystander but cannot take any credit for any of the work being done. I want to thank staff for"},{"t":2107,"text":"for supporting the foundation members for doing that work. Um, and now the material is coming forward for council not for review or approval but just for"},{"t":2116,"text":"council's information to just to have a good understanding of where the foundation is orienting themselves. Thank you."},{"t":2123,"text":"With that, I think I will welcome Mr. Taylor. Welcome, sir."},{"t":2127,"text":"Thank you. I'm Robert Taylor, a resident of Oak Bay and president of the Oak Bay Heritage Foundation. In keeping with"},{"t":2134,"text":"council's request, oh before that, mayor and council and staff, thank you for arranging this and giving us the"},{"t":2141,"text":"opportunity to update council and staff on on where we are. Basically uh as the council has said the greater clarity and"},{"t":2150,"text":"function of the foundation uh we prepared a new a new uh constitution and"},{"t":2157,"text":"bylaws uh I should emphasize they are consistent with the society's act uh and"},{"t":2163,"text":"the model bylaws within the act uh they remove the somewhat ownorous job of of"},{"t":2171,"text":"council appointing uh directors uh which is work that probably can be done uh by"},{"t":2179,"text":"by the foundation itself rather than relying on staff to have to do that."},{"t":2183,"text":"We've taken that out. Uh the main difference is we've separated our budgets. We uh we would like to fund"},{"t":2192,"text":"raise more. The problem is uh because we we have two functions. One is to give grants to heritage properties and the"},{"t":2201,"text":"other is the educational site. And so we feel that the the the grants uh funds should come from council in his"},{"t":2210,"text":"commitment to heritage properties, the designated heritage properties that we want to protect. But we separate completely uh the educational component"},{"t":2220,"text":"which is raised by which is created by our own investments or activities. Um, so we're then in a position to actually"},{"t":2228,"text":"fund raise because we can we can ensure that any donations go to those activities. And so that is our goal from"},{"t":2237,"text":"this point on to seek funding for initiatives, education or even practical initiatives in in the heritage area."},{"t":2247,"text":"Uh we um we've also taken the opportunity to broaden the public input because now it's a a closed shop really."},{"t":2257,"text":"Uh there are up to 11 directors but no members. Uh so that's we've changed that"},{"t":2263,"text":"to the normal society operating model where uh it'll be open to membership for"},{"t":2270,"text":"anyone and directors will be elected by by the members. So it gives a a greater"},{"t":2277,"text":"access to the public and uh again thank you to uh uh staff"},{"t":2285,"text":"especially who who uh gives wonderful very good advice on putting this"},{"t":2291,"text":"together. And so um with that uh that's it. That's the update."},{"t":2299,"text":"Uh thank you very much Mr. Joe. This is just for information. It's not we don't approve this or anything else. This is a a process that's undertaken separately."},{"t":2306,"text":"I will take the opportunity uh to to thank well maybe I'll let counselor speak first but I'll say I'll just say very quickly I just want to say thank"},{"t":2314,"text":"you for the work that you do as an or as an organization um the heritage plaques I have one in my house the heritage"},{"t":2320,"text":"talks the the work that you do with helping people uh research aspects of their buildings and encourage people to support and learn about heritage is"},{"t":2329,"text":"fantastic and uh certainly work we can't do as a as a council. It's just not a practical sort of governmental organization process, but uh really well"},{"t":2337,"text":"done uh at arms length with your support. So, thank you for all the work that you do. Go ahead, Councelor Patterson."},{"t":2342,"text":"Yes. Thank you, Mayor, and through you to Mr. Taylor. Thank you so much for for presenting this to us and certainly um"},{"t":2350,"text":"through you to all members of the foundation for the for the marvelous work that they do within the community and know how much it is valued by by"},{"t":2358,"text":"residents. do have a just a couple of small questions for Mr. Taylor who's here. I did notice under section C of"},{"t":2366,"text":"this one of the um purposes is to raise funds from basically the corporation of the district of Oak Bay for the"},{"t":2373,"text":"operation of the society which I which I realize but I am I to interpret this as if there's growing success of the"},{"t":2382,"text":"foundation that you will be seeking"},{"t":2385,"text":"[laughter]"},{"t":2387,"text":"seeking higher grants from the municipality in order to um support your endeavors."},{"t":2394,"text":"No, I think the advantage of splitting our our two budgets. One which is funded by the annual municipal grant we feel"},{"t":2404,"text":"that that is is a fund which supports her physically supports heritage properties. Um the other side of the"},{"t":2413,"text":"coin is our own uh generated funds from interest, investments, activities, donations and so we feel that on this"},{"t":2423,"text":"side we can now uh fund raise. So that won't affect the the municipal grant. We will continue in the normal way asking"},{"t":2432,"text":"the usual amount and whatever council in his region decides is fine. uh but it does free us to fund raise from the other things."},{"t":2442,"text":"Thank you. Go ahead."},{"t":2444,"text":"Yes. Thank you so much for that clarification. And the other is in section 2.5 and 2.6 it talks about membership dues."},{"t":2452,"text":"Um and is is that something that the foundation will be working on more in the future creating a membership dues?"},{"t":2461,"text":"There's no schedule attached. So just no what we what we imagine is that we will establish a membership category. Uh"},{"t":2468,"text":"the Jews we think will be some reasonably nominal sum $20 as we suggested or $25 one flat"},{"t":2478,"text":"rate. Uh people are a member of the uh society and are able to vote uh in"},{"t":2484,"text":"elections at the annual general meeting much like every other society I think. Go ahead, Councelor Watson."},{"t":2493,"text":"Yes. Thank you very much for coming tonight. Appreciate it. And it's it's wonderful to see things moving forward to kind of change the nature of the"},{"t":2500,"text":"relationship and to give you I guess a little bit more autonomy, which is one of the things I see here. I was curious if the expectation was based on the two"},{"t":2510,"text":"classes of membership that the council continues to appoint a liaison or maybe that may actually be a question for"},{"t":2517,"text":"staff more than it is for Mr. Taylor. So maybe I could ask that to Ms. Hunt if I could."},{"t":2526,"text":"Well, give it to Mr. Taylor. Mr. Taylor. Mr. Yeah. Yes. Thank you."},{"t":2529,"text":"Yeah. I um we uh we greatly value uh the"},{"t":2536,"text":"counselor. Um it's we think it's really important. uh we we want to ensure we're"},{"t":2543,"text":"not going to do something that is contrary, inconsistent or creates a problem for the district or for council."},{"t":2551,"text":"Uh and and so we we we value that and so we very much hope that this position will be continued."},{"t":2562,"text":"Thank you. I have councelor Braithweight then smart. I do just want to as much I know we all love the foundation. I want to keep this reasonably short. Go ahead."},{"t":2570,"text":"Uh, thanks. This is probably for staff."},{"t":2572,"text":"It's just on the dissolution clause. Um, not that I'm thinking this will ever have a dissolution, but just to clarify"},{"t":2579,"text":"um it says um that uh that assets go to an organization with similar purpose as determined by the members in consultation with the district Rogue"},{"t":2587,"text":"Bay. And if that can't happen, assets go to the district as a qualified recipient under the act. So, I'm just wondering what does in consultation with the"},{"t":2595,"text":"district mean? and does the district have any approval role or is that simply that we're being consulted because we would perhaps have given a lot of funds"},{"t":2603,"text":"to it over the years and so I'm just thinking that we should have a clear understanding of what happens if the foundation ever did dissolve"},{"t":2613,"text":"Mr. uh give us Taylor as the as the primary person of staff."},{"t":2616,"text":"I I think the advice we have or consultation is that if there was a suitable"},{"t":2623,"text":"organization nonprofit that was here in Oak Bay that over overlapped that was appropriate and certainly whatever we"},{"t":2632,"text":"would consult with staff and council. Um failing that because there may not be one. Uh so in failing having an"},{"t":2641,"text":"organization in Oak Bay to transfer our assets to uh then we feel they should go back to the district."},{"t":2648,"text":"Thank you councelor Smart."},{"t":2652,"text":"Yeah, thank you. I'm not sure if this is a question best for Mr. Taylor or for staff, but I was just um really appreciating of course the modernization"},{"t":2659,"text":"of of this and the and the um progress that's being made. And my only question was really with regards to the two budgets and when you first started"},{"t":2667,"text":"describing it um I had anticipated that the you know council funded budget might be more the community oriented events in"},{"t":2675,"text":"the educational aspect that would actually um support the greater community whereas the grants that may"},{"t":2683,"text":"support one person's individual house that might come under greater you know scrutiny from the community to be funded by the municipality to advantage one"},{"t":2692,"text":"person particular particularly um that that might be what is fundraised for."},{"t":2696,"text":"And so I just wondered if that kind of um line of thinking was discussed at all around the two budgets um wanting uh ad"},{"t":2704,"text":"admitting that of course heritage is a community asset, but that there could be some um scrutiny of of public taxpayers"},{"t":2713,"text":"money going towards um somebody's roof or such. So um just wondered if you could if that came up at all as a subject around um"},{"t":2723,"text":"yeah very much um one of the problem we faced in a current model is that uh we're not able to effectively fund raise"},{"t":2731,"text":"because uh if someone donates to the heritage foundation uh it may go to improve their neighbor's house which is"},{"t":2741,"text":"it's not a good a good not a good way to fund raise. Um I think I I think we have to emphasize the fact that these funds"},{"t":2748,"text":"go into a heritage property. It's not so much the owner. It's it's designated properties that people have willingly"},{"t":2756,"text":"designated protected and and therefore almost have this moral responsibility to"},{"t":2763,"text":"maintain. And so we feel that this is an important part of of uh the foundation."},{"t":2769,"text":"But the other thing we can fund raise for for education you know we um"},{"t":2778,"text":"it could be physical thing it could it could be signage it could be uh you know anything uh where there's a greater"},{"t":2786,"text":"community good and then uh we we can approach fund raise funders to to join"},{"t":2792,"text":"us uh we can't fund raise for grants to heritage properties and that's why into two separate budgets."},{"t":2804,"text":"I don't see any other questions. We don't need to receive it officially."},{"t":2806,"text":"We're just here to to get the information. I really think it's to the benefit of the community to have a chance to understand a little bit more of what you do and the hard work that"},{"t":2813,"text":"you're you're doing. So, thank you to all the representatives from the Heritage Foundation who are here tonight and uh uh thank you very much for your time."},{"t":2822,"text":"Thank you. Thank you, Mr."},{"t":2825,"text":"Uh we move next to reports. same rule as last time. You're welcome to stay around or you can you can depart if you see see"},{"t":2832,"text":"fit. Uh moving to 7.1. Uh this section is subject to public input. So if people wish to speak to the Canervin Park redevelopment uh project in this phase"},{"t":2841,"text":"of it, you're more than welcome to do so. What we will be doing uh sort of our standard practice which will have an introduction from staff. We will then"},{"t":2848,"text":"have an opportunity for council to answer uh or ask clarifying questions."},{"t":2852,"text":"Uh concluding the questions, we'll give it to the public if there's any input."},{"t":2856,"text":"uh there can be questions or comments and then we will come back to this table to give some direction uh or perhaps further discussion as to possible direction. So uh with that I'll hand"},{"t":2864,"text":"this over to uh Mr. Sulier who's a director of parks, recreation, culture and district facilities uh to probably a good combination of topics uh given the topic in front of us today. Welcome Mr."},{"t":2875,"text":"Sulier."},{"t":2876,"text":"Thank you and good evening mayor and council. I'm pleased [clears throat] to be here today with my colleagues including David Graham, the senior manager of district facilities and project manager as well as Jennifer"},{"t":2884,"text":"Lockheart, our director of facilities or finance and uh chief financial officer."},{"t":2889,"text":"Uh we're here to provide a project update on the Canover Park uh redevelopment plan. As you know, since uh our our update a few months ago, the"},{"t":2896,"text":"team has been focused on the final detailed designs uh relating to the planning phase of the project."},{"t":2904,"text":"The report shared with you today offers an update on the design and costing activities as well as the next phase of work relating to the implementation of"},{"t":2911,"text":"the master plan. In addition, staff are seeking your approval on the proposed funding strategy to be incorporated in the updated financial plan."},{"t":2923,"text":"As outlined in the report, the design of the park program has remained consistent with the direction from council and material shared with the public earlier this year. Following additional"},{"t":2931,"text":"technical work over the summer, the project team has engaged the quantity surveyor to prepare the class A cost report, which is expected to be finished in the coming weeks."},{"t":2942,"text":"With the planning work nearing completion, staff will focus on the requirements of the construction phase, including the procurement, site works,"},{"t":2950,"text":"and ultimately commissioning. Pending council support today, staff will prepare to onboard a construction management consultant who will assist"},{"t":2957,"text":"with the execution of the construction phase. This additional expertise will be valuable to help ensure an efficient process for engaging trades and"},{"t":2965,"text":"mitigating risks. The comprehensive schedule is still to be confirmed."},{"t":2969,"text":"However, staff anticipate work beginning in mid 2027."},{"t":2974,"text":"The duration of the project will depend on the phasing activities, but is likely that completion of all components of the master plan will require at least three"},{"t":2981,"text":"years. As per our standard process, a thorough communication plan will be developed in advance to ensure that nearby residents and the general public"},{"t":2989,"text":"are aware of the timing and nature of the construction impacts."},{"t":2994,"text":"The project budget has been updated based on the latest costing information and projections and the total cost remains consistent with the financial"},{"t":3001,"text":"plan and additional detail on the various category cost categories is available in the attachment number three in your report."},{"t":3014,"text":"To date, council has provided direction on the overall approach to funding this project, including the use of reserves and debt. The table in this slide and"},{"t":3021,"text":"also in the report outline specific amounts from the infrastructure reserve amenity and cost development charge contributions along with the proposed debt and property tax implications."},{"t":3032,"text":"Based on the strategy, the property tax impact is projected to be 1.39%."},{"t":3038,"text":"Finally, the district continues to await a decision on our application for an 11.3 million grant through the federal government's building community strong"},{"t":3046,"text":"fund. Should the district receive the grant, the amount of the debt and reserve would be reduced along with the property tax requirement."},{"t":3056,"text":"As mentioned previously, the planning phase is coming to a concl to a close and pending council's decision. Today, the project team will concentrate"},{"t":3063,"text":"attention on completing the necessary financial documentation and preparing for the construction phase. The past year has been a busy one, and I would like to extend my gratitude to the"},{"t":3072,"text":"design and technical consultants along with my colleagues who have all helped to advance this major initiative thoughtfully and efficiently while managing many other operational demands."},{"t":3081,"text":"With that, we look forward to answering questions you may have. Thank you."},{"t":3085,"text":"Thank you. Uh so I'll go to questions from council and we'll seek public uh any questions or comments from the public. Go ahead councelor briefly."},{"t":3091,"text":"Uh thanks very much mayor. Thanks very much Molly for the presentation. I know this is another step along the way um"},{"t":3098,"text":"for finally getting park um redone. Um I do have a few questions in regards to um a few of them are really more of around"},{"t":3107,"text":"the financial stuff. Um cuz I know that in your report it says that you're going to use 15.1 million from the"},{"t":3114,"text":"infrastructure renewal reserve and I'm just looking for a little bit more explanation on that because I think that"},{"t":3122,"text":"now it looks like 50% of the entire project is going to be paid from that reserve. Um, and in April, I think when we looked at it, it was only about"},{"t":3129,"text":"522,000 was going to be coming from the infrastructure renewal reserve, I think, if I'm correct. And approximately 29.7"},{"t":3138,"text":"million was going to be borrowed. Um, and that was going to have like a 5% property tax um impact. So, I'm wondering um how much will remain in the"},{"t":3146,"text":"infrastructure renewal reserve after the 15.111 million transfer and what perhaps you can touch on what projects currently"},{"t":3155,"text":"identified in the district's capital plan will have to be delayed, reduced or funded in a different way if we take that money out now for for this project. Thank you."},{"t":3164,"text":"I'll give it to you Mr. Sier. You can give it to Miss Lockhart as you see fit."},{"t":3167,"text":"Sure. I think I I'll start and then and perhaps look to my colleague to assist with the uh the question around the balance of the reserve. But um council"},{"t":3174,"text":"did approve uh an approach of using uh reserves for 50% of the costs and and debt of 50% of the costs. That was a"},{"t":3183,"text":"decision that council gave us in our last meeting. And so staff have developed uh the more detailed uh financial plan um strategy based on on"},{"t":3191,"text":"that direction. Um and perhaps my colleague can assist with the the balance."},{"t":3195,"text":"Yes. Thank you. through the mayor. Um, in terms of the uh the balance for the reserves, I've done two projections. If we consider that we let's say do not get"},{"t":3203,"text":"the grant and uh I know Thomas you had mentioned that uh three years for the for the project uh becoming finalized uh"},{"t":3211,"text":"my projections take a look at 2030 like once the project is actually done we would have $5.1 million in the infrastructure renewal reserve. Again"},{"t":3220,"text":"that's if there is no grant. However, if we um do receive the grant, it is a more positive story and we would have $10.8"},{"t":3228,"text":"million in the reserve in at the end of 2030."},{"t":3233,"text":"Thank you. And if I may, mayor, thank you. That's perfect. Thank you so much."},{"t":3237,"text":"Um and then the um we talk about now it's going to be a 1.399% property tax impact. Um and I'm just"},{"t":3245,"text":"wondering if it if we can just talk a little bit what that represents. Is it the municipal property tax levy levy and um would that translate how what would"},{"t":3254,"text":"that translate into on average for an oak property? Go ahead, Mr. Locker."},{"t":3260,"text":"Yep. Through the mayor. Um so that uh amount for the 1.39, you are correct."},{"t":3266,"text":"That is a uh property tax lift and unfortunately I do not have the calculation for the uh average homeowner."},{"t":3274,"text":"No worries. I'm sure we can get it at some point in time. Um and then I'll I'll ask one more question and pass it on for others to ask. Um we uh I think"},{"t":3282,"text":"the anticipated um Canurban DCC recovery has fallen now from 7.3 to 3.2 and I'm just wondering if you could tell me h why that is."},{"t":3294,"text":"Thank you."},{"t":3296,"text":"Through the mayor. Um, when the ACC and the DCC bylaw was initially developed, my understanding was it was before the"},{"t":3304,"text":"official community plan was adopted and so the um recoverables might have been a little bit more uh optimistic um in"},{"t":3314,"text":"terms of um where things are at right now. We have run some projections and so we are expecting that we would have around uh $3 million coming in. and a"},{"t":3323,"text":"portion of that relates to the um municipal assist transfer. And so it really is contingent on development"},{"t":3331,"text":"activity. And so if there's more development, we get more revenues. And if there's not so much development, then um those ACC and DCC revenues will be uh reduced."},{"t":3343,"text":"Thank you so much. And I I lied. I do have one more question about the just about the annual operating cost. Have we"},{"t":3350,"text":"do do we have any idea what the annual operating costs are going to be and how that's going to affect is it going to be offset by user fees, taxes, programming"},{"t":3358,"text":"revenues or whatever through the mayor. Um so in our our last report to council, we did provide a a"},{"t":3366,"text":"summary on anticipated operating uh implications. It was a few months ago."},{"t":3370,"text":"Um uh we did anticipate uh within about 3 years uh being able to essentially get to cost recovery. Um the first few years"},{"t":3378,"text":"with the startup will be uh uh more subsidized but um but that is the plan to have that the revenues covering off the uh the costs of operating."},{"t":3388,"text":"Thank you. Other questions go ahead councelor Smart."},{"t":3393,"text":"Yeah thank you. Um uh it's exciting to be at this stage of the project. Um just a few questions. U my first one was with"},{"t":3400,"text":"regards to um uh great to see the approach of a construction manager and I'm wondering with our community's"},{"t":3407,"text":"current attention focused on trying to have a robust local economy in these challenging economic times will the RFP"},{"t":3415,"text":"for the construction manager preference supporting local firms and local trades to support jobs in the CRD and our local"},{"t":3422,"text":"economy? Um just wondering um when you put out such an RFP if it has a local focus to it."},{"t":3429,"text":"Mr. Graham uh through the mayor. I'll try and answer that since we haven't developed the RFP yet, but the dollar value of the RFP will be high enough. We'll have to"},{"t":3437,"text":"go with uh with under what's called the Tilma standard, which will be full interprovincial. So, um being with an"},{"t":3445,"text":"RFP, we can score local representative representation to a small amount, but uh we will have to be open and fair due to the dollar value."},{"t":3457,"text":"Thank you for that. Um my next question was just with regards to clarification on the solar um canopy that was separate"},{"t":3464,"text":"in the design and and then it was going to be moved to the the roof of the building. And looking at the drawings, it it appears that there's um a green"},{"t":3473,"text":"roof um shown. And so I just um wanted um clarification on um whether solar is now totally removed from the project and we have a green roof on on the building."},{"t":3483,"text":"And if you could just clarify. Thank you."},{"t":3486,"text":"Graham uh through your mayor. Uh I can't I think it was two meetings uh status reports ago that we did. Uh council had"},{"t":3494,"text":"requested the green roof remain and so um the solar panels stay on the uh the coverage shelter between the tennis"},{"t":3502,"text":"courts. So we still have solar panels um and we have the green roof."},{"t":3508,"text":"Thank you for clarification. Um that wasn't clear to me from the drawing. So that's that's exciting to see. Um my next question was just with regards to"},{"t":3516,"text":"um through you mayor to to staff just clarification on how some of the community feedback made it into this"},{"t":3524,"text":"latest stage of design development. Um really appreciated the last engagement session. Um, and I feel like some of the takeaways I had from that session were"},{"t":3533,"text":"people asking about are there places for teenagers to hang out and where are the picnic benches and um, uh, so I just"},{"t":3540,"text":"wondered if staff could comment at all on perhaps some how the community's"},{"t":3547,"text":"feedback um, has sort of shaped this this latest stage that we're at now."},{"t":3552,"text":"Thanks through the mayor. So um some of the feedback that we received was really at"},{"t":3560,"text":"that fine grain level. So some of the the furnishings and um and the sort of uh the final details that will come into play when the when all the pieces are"},{"t":3568,"text":"being uh put in place. Uh furnishings and and places to sit and hang out are certainly part of that and and staff have taken note um of that. Uh we also"},{"t":3577,"text":"heard uh feedback around the uh the off leash area and the sort of experience of you know the surface treatments and some of the amenities might be that might be"},{"t":3586,"text":"included uh lighting and feelings of of safety at night while balancing with the uh the dark skies um priority. Um so"},{"t":3593,"text":"yeah, all of those uh sort of specific points that we received that can be incorporated into this plan down the"},{"t":3600,"text":"road um we intend to. There were certainly uh differences of opinion and we did have the check-in with council at the last meeting on the the overall"},{"t":3609,"text":"program to make sure that we were absolutely clear on what the uh the program elements would be and the size and scale of each of those. So uh that"},{"t":3616,"text":"is what you see in the layout. Uh we did make a modification to the court area. I think it was the the only real sort of obvious change uh to give a little bit more space for players um in those areas."},{"t":3628,"text":"Anything else?"},{"t":3629,"text":"Thanks. Um three just one clarifying question. um based on that. Um so if the community was to look at this plan and"},{"t":3637,"text":"say I don't see enough picnic tables or places where I'm going to bring my lunch or there's no places where there's community connection where the benches are facing one another, they're all in a"},{"t":3645,"text":"line. Um those kind of there's still maybe another level of development that may happen and there might be more possibilities for seating to have"},{"t":3653,"text":"community connection through the mayor. uh we will be doing our best uh with our our staff uh and"},{"t":3661,"text":"consultants to make sure that we're placing uh furniture for example in the in the best uh location, but um for those elements that are modular, we'll"},{"t":3669,"text":"be moving them around. We certainly are looking at that plaza as a real opportunity for social connection and a real um multi-use outdoor area. Um and"},{"t":3678,"text":"we've tried to represent that in some of the renderings that are on the website uh showing sort of what the potential could be for that space in particular."},{"t":3685,"text":"Um but um when we're looking at the green spaces uh we're not really uh getting into any changes to the sport"},{"t":3692,"text":"field uh uh areas. So we're looking at sort of those peripheral uh locations."},{"t":3697,"text":"The perimeter path will have seating along it as well for example. So hopefully that helps. Don't have anybody else. Oh go ahead."},{"t":3705,"text":"Councelor Patterson."},{"t":3706,"text":"Yes. Thank you mayor. Thank you for the report Mr. Sulia. Um I I would like to just backtrack to the infra the the funding from the infrastructure renewal"},{"t":3715,"text":"reserve because it shows no property tax impact but actually the reserves were created from uh from taxes that were"},{"t":3724,"text":"assessed on properties and this money will have to be repaid to those to those reserve funds. So I would like to um to"},{"t":3732,"text":"understand how they will be repaid um uh to the infrastructure renewal reserve"},{"t":3739,"text":"and also any implications because with the reserves being drawn done drawn down"},{"t":3745,"text":"we also um uh lose the benefit of any investment income that would occur to the to the district and having those"},{"t":3753,"text":"funds still in the in the reserve um accounts. So, I'm wondering if perhaps uh might be more of a question for our"},{"t":3762,"text":"director of finances, but uh just some commentary on there because I don't I the way it reads property tax impact"},{"t":3770,"text":"there won't be any there has already been a property tax impact."},{"t":3774,"text":"Thank you, Councelor Patterson. Miss Lockhart, that is appropriate for you."},{"t":3778,"text":"Yes, thank you through the mayor. So, uh you are correct. uh there is a transfer that goes into the reserve on an annual basis and that is actually coming from"},{"t":3785,"text":"property taxes and so when we consider taking a look at this uh particular scenario we're already um considering"},{"t":3792,"text":"that that money is in the reserve and that we're using it I can confirm that there is an annual transfer that is happening into the uh infrastructure"},{"t":3800,"text":"renewal reserve and uh that was $9.2 million in uh 2026 we have 9.8 in 2027"},{"t":3809,"text":"and 10.8 8 in 2028. And so those contributions will uh continue to increase within that reserve. And so it"},{"t":3817,"text":"is this fine dance in terms of uh making sure that those contributions going in um are able to support current projects"},{"t":3825,"text":"and that we aren't actually depleting the uh the reserve. So I'm not sure if that answers your question."},{"t":3832,"text":"This also to Miss Hunt to to jump in. Thank you very much uh your worship."},{"t":3837,"text":"Yeah, I just wanted to add that um uh we have one infrastructure renewal reserve right now that funds um you know both"},{"t":3844,"text":"our utility infrastructure, our park infrastructure, our building infrastructure. Uh one of the exercises that we'll be doing uh through the next"},{"t":3851,"text":"budget cycle is actually uh trying to allocate that reserve out to the various uh different asset categories so that we can give council a much better"},{"t":3860,"text":"understanding of the impacts of um and the gaps in terms of what is necessary to complete the renewal projects over"},{"t":3868,"text":"the next 5 to 10 years. Um so as part of the asset management program we're doing that work where we're um both going to look at the sort of the the funding on"},{"t":3877,"text":"an asset category. It will provide um you know a lot more um I think information for council in order to make"},{"t":3884,"text":"those types of decisions when you're looking at just building type asset replacement uh costs versus uh conflating those with the other asset"},{"t":3893,"text":"replacement costs that we have whereas which is what we're doing when we have one reserve. I hope that helps a little bit."},{"t":3900,"text":"Yes, thank you. And I'm just wondering perhaps if uh Miss Lockheart or Miss Hunt can can speak about the um we have"},{"t":3908,"text":"been uh enjoying the u investment income that previously the district didn't have"},{"t":3915,"text":"because we didn't have reserve funds and that has been um for us a significant portion of our budget for the for the"},{"t":3922,"text":"last few years and drawing it down to this extent. How will how will that impact the investment income?"},{"t":3930,"text":"Thank you very much. I'll start and then I'll pass it over to our director of finance. Uh I just do want to remind council that any investment income that is earned by reserves goes back into"},{"t":3938,"text":"those reserves. We don't incorporate that into the operating budget to offset uh you know the taxes. So it does have"},{"t":3946,"text":"an impact in terms of the balance in that reserve. But I'll maybe let Jennifer talk about uh what that investment income might have been. M Locker."},{"t":3953,"text":"Uh yes, thank you. So, um I do not have the exact uh dollar value in terms of what investment income was last year, but I can say it was probably around 3%"},{"t":3961,"text":"is what we were actually looking at in terms of the the year-end statements."},{"t":3965,"text":"And uh if you would like to have more details, I'm happy to uh to respond um you know in a in an email after this meeting. There is one other update I"},{"t":3974,"text":"wanted to uh just briefly mention with the 1.39% uh there was a question about the uh impact to the average household and that's $70."},{"t":3983,"text":"So thank you. Thank you. Go ahead, councelor Patterson."},{"t":3989,"text":"Yes, thank you. And and just for clarification on that, that is on an annual basis. It because it does carry on for 25 years, correct?"},{"t":4000,"text":"Locker. Uh that would be on an annual basis. That's correct."},{"t":4005,"text":"So just for absolute clarification, does that amount uh but it doesn't go up by 1.39% every year for 25 years. that that 1.39% carries forward."},{"t":4014,"text":"That's correct."},{"t":4015,"text":"Yes. Okay. That's for Yes. Yeah. Just that could be interpreted one of two ways. Wanted to make sure that we're very clear."},{"t":4022,"text":"Uh okay. Uh please continue."},{"t":4025,"text":"Yes. Thank you. Um and this is uh the scope of this project has um has"},{"t":4032,"text":"definitely accelerated since I in 2023 the financial plan included $8 million development estimate and 21 million in"},{"t":4041,"text":"life cycle costs over over 50 years. So the the scope and and the cost have have risen"},{"t":4049,"text":"considerably. And I'm just wondering because Oak Bay's recreation network is fairly extensive. I think we have five"},{"t":4057,"text":"five facilities, 11 playgrounds, and 18 parks. And I think the last time we we did the update in the sustainable"},{"t":4064,"text":"infrastructure, and the asset value of it was approximately 109 million. So I'm expecting that it's much higher now. Um,"},{"t":4072,"text":"have we done an analysis on on allocating"},{"t":4078,"text":"this block of funding for this one um area and the impact of that on the"},{"t":4087,"text":"overall recreational budgets going forward and the work that is is needed. I mean over time and"},{"t":4094,"text":"without sustainable funding some of the facilities have fallen into disrepair and [clears throat] certainly Caravan"},{"t":4101,"text":"Park is one of of those and it but it's a very important um hub of recreation"},{"t":4116,"text":"to be done in within recreation overall for the district. So, how will this"},{"t":4123,"text":"constrain the the um the sustainable funding for all of the"},{"t":4130,"text":"recreational facilities? Have we do we have a grasp on that?"},{"t":4136,"text":"Hunto that you've certainly Yeah, I'll start. It sort of goes back to my my point earlier about being able to separate out, you know, have separate reserves for the different asset"},{"t":4144,"text":"categories and understand what the needs are per asset category. being able to prioritize uh that and understand the replacement values. And that is what"},{"t":4152,"text":"work that um we've been very fortunate to receive a a $400,000 grant um just recently. And that work is that that"},{"t":4162,"text":"funding is going to help us do that work, which is what we need in order to be able to answer those kinds of uh detailed questions."},{"t":4171,"text":"Any other questions for staff before I go to the public?"},{"t":4176,"text":"I have a couple of questions. That's uh so the uh I have a sort of a general question about our ability given that"},{"t":4184,"text":"there's a potential for grants really attached to buildings not not playgrounds. Um is it there's a two-part question. One is it feasible to"},{"t":4192,"text":"consider, you know, advancing this where we're doing all of the park upgrades and waiting on the on the building until"},{"t":4200,"text":"such time as we we may have grants. Um, and B, perhaps if some clarification for me of this, we have a total dollar"},{"t":4207,"text":"amount of 30.2 million. You know, do we have a a somewhat rough estimate of what that split is between the building versus the other park improvements that"},{"t":4216,"text":"are being uh that are being considered here. I'm not sure to get that to I'll give it to Mr. Sullier and you can just redirect it how you see fit."},{"t":4224,"text":"Thank you, Mayor. And perhaps I'll I'll start with the the first question and and my colleague can uh uh respond to the second and fill in any other gaps."},{"t":4231,"text":"Um, I would say when it comes to the the site uh plan and the phasing of construction, um staff have have really"},{"t":4239,"text":"ever since the um the concept was updated to put the building on the west side of the park on the Henderson frontage um anticipated that that would"},{"t":4246,"text":"be the first piece of the of the um implementation uh plan. And that's largely because it is the largest uh"},{"t":4254,"text":"item. It is going to take the largest amount of space for mobilizing and constructing um from a risk management perspective to have the most expensive"},{"t":4262,"text":"item going first kind of mitigate some of our our potential risk with cost escalation um if we're for example we're waiting um for a long time to get uh uh"},{"t":4270,"text":"funding confirmed. Uh the other question would be just what to do with that space in the interimm as well. Um and knowing that it would be a larger footprint than"},{"t":4278,"text":"just the footprint of the building that would be required uh for the construction. Um that would be a pretty significant impact to the overall plan."},{"t":4285,"text":"Um so we we wouldn't really be we wouldn't be recommending that approach."},{"t":4289,"text":"Um, appreciating that, you know, if funding is the primary consideration, the idea of of simply holding off would probably uh uh be our our recommended"},{"t":4299,"text":"approach until uh those questions were around funding at grants were were confirmed uh before proceeding at all."},{"t":4305,"text":"we could potentially commence with some of the the um uh updates on the east side of the park that weren't really,"},{"t":4312,"text":"you know, the smaller items, but uh but yeah, in terms of the the bulk of the work that really is on that western side and the central area, um the"},{"t":4320,"text":"recommendation would be that the building go first."},{"t":4325,"text":"Mr. Graham, uh through your worship, if I could just clarify the question was roughly how much does the building take up on the overall budget? Um just rough math that"},{"t":4334,"text":"I did right now about 65% that includes design fees and the total gross budget."},{"t":4340,"text":"Thank you for that clarification."},{"t":4343,"text":"Last thing any other questions? I'm going to turn either online or in person anybody who wishes to speak to council on this matter before we get back to this table for for some direction. And"},{"t":4352,"text":"so this is specific to the we're looking at funding models and and uh and funding approvals essentially for the uh for the"},{"t":4359,"text":"approach uh for the caravan park redevelopment. Is there anybody in the chambers that wishes to speak to council on this matter?"},{"t":4369,"text":"And don't see anybody but you still have time. Any I don't see any hands online either uh that may be interested in speaking although I think somebody just"},{"t":4378,"text":"unmuted themselves. So if they wish to speak you can do so."},{"t":4386,"text":"No, I don't see anybody intending to to hear any voices online or in hands raised. So, uh I'm going to bring it"},{"t":4394,"text":"back to this table then. So, at this table, uh we have the staff report in front of us. So, we're looking to seek some direction from council."},{"t":4401,"text":"May I ask just one more question? Um just around the um the professional fees, permits and contingencies, the 6.16 million, do we know how much of"},{"t":4410,"text":"that is actually the contingency um part of that? Mr."},{"t":4418,"text":"uh that amount is is in the neighborhood of of $3 million. We have a few pieces still to work through with the uh the fees, but um it's in that order of magnitude."},{"t":4428,"text":"Thank you."},{"t":4430,"text":"Okay, over to council. Uh we have a recommendation here in terms of the approving the revised funding strategy and directing staff to incorporate the funding into the financial plan."},{"t":4440,"text":"I'll make the staff recommendation. Move the staff recommendation."},{"t":4444,"text":"Move and seconded. Thank you. Um further discussion on the on the motion."},{"t":4450,"text":"Just again just to thank staff for all their work on this. I know this is a a really large amount of money that um we're spending. Um, and there's it"},{"t":4459,"text":"doesn't it doesn't um leave me that um you know, we're taking money out of our reserve fund to build a building that that we're then going to have to draw"},{"t":4467,"text":"money from the reserve fund to fix it in in a few years or whatever in 30 years."},{"t":4471,"text":"So, there's there's that as well. But, um I think that uh the the community has waited a long time for this. Um and I"},{"t":4478,"text":"I'm comfortable with where we're taking the money from and and what um the tax implication will be. Um I think we're going to end up with a beautiful"},{"t":4486,"text":"building in the end and um I look forward to the next round that comes back to if I'm sitting around the council table um that comes back to"},{"t":4494,"text":"council for the for the next step. So thank you very much for all your work."},{"t":4500,"text":"Speaking go ahead counc um is it appropriate to ask another question? Um there are comments or we have a live"},{"t":4508,"text":"motion on the floor through you mayor to staff. Um you you touched on something in your final comments, Mr. Sawyer, and that was that"},{"t":4516,"text":"it would be possible to do the east side improvements, you know, initially. Um and and so do a a partial a sort of a"},{"t":4524,"text":"phase in approach um could you elaborate on that a little bit more? Thank you."},{"t":4530,"text":"Through the mayor. So the the detailed uh phasing in options um are still to be determined. Um, in my response uh to the"},{"t":4538,"text":"question of whether we would uh we could not do the building um because there's so much integrated with the building and so much space required with the"},{"t":4547,"text":"construction of the building and servicing uh for that part of the park."},{"t":4550,"text":"Um if we were looking to to just take action and and avoid that, the east side would be really the option. So that would be the off leash uh park um some"},{"t":4558,"text":"of the pathway improvements um that are proposed for that side of the park. Thank you."},{"t":4566,"text":"Patterson."},{"t":4567,"text":"Yes. Thank you. Um I appreciate all the work that has gone into it and input from the community. Um I am not I won't"},{"t":4576,"text":"support the motion to go forward with this. I I guess I think in terms of our respons responsibility on council for"},{"t":4584,"text":"for asset management is to assess risk and allocate funding. And Corner Park,"},{"t":4591,"text":"as I said previously, is an important recreational hub for central Oakley families and the many regional activities it supports. And it is a regse these um assets are regional."},{"t":4604,"text":"They're not just just local. And I think that Oak Bay with all of the recreational facilities that we offer,"},{"t":4613,"text":"we we do have a a good local and regional response. Where we have um where we have fallen short for many"},{"t":4621,"text":"decades is sustainable funding. And without a business plan on this and"},{"t":4628,"text":"without clarity around the needs of where this this budget fits within the broader scope of the recreational and"},{"t":4636,"text":"parks budget, but also the overall budget for the district and the other facilities we have to do. And uh given"},{"t":4646,"text":"how the costs have increased considerably since we started this process um the uncertainty of the"},{"t":4654,"text":"funding broader economic pressures that we that all level of governments are are facing at this time I think it's time to"},{"t":4663,"text":"reassess community needs and align the project budget with current financial um realities. So I I for what for what is"},{"t":4673,"text":"before me, I I don't think that it allows me as a member of council to to determine how this fits into the broader"},{"t":4681,"text":"uh broader perspective of of what we have to face. I also am very"},{"t":4687,"text":"uncomfortable with collecting revenues um under taxation for in infrastructure renewal reserve and then shifting it to"},{"t":4697,"text":"other areas. that was something that that um was of concern to residents that uh they and certainly the survey has"},{"t":4706,"text":"said that they still want us to focus on core services. So, I do appreciate that it it's not really an option to do"},{"t":4713,"text":"nothing at Cararvin Park, but I think it's time to just hesitate and and see if there is a way that we could um phase"},{"t":4722,"text":"uses differently or reduce the scope to bring the the budget more in line and"},{"t":4729,"text":"particularly while we are determining I mean I did try a couple of times to get thresholds set for reserve funds"},{"t":4737,"text":"unsuccessfully. council did not support that. But th those things really make a difference when you're assessing uh"},{"t":4743,"text":"assessing risk. And I I really mayor, I'm I'm really pressed to think that if you brought all the departments into the"},{"t":4751,"text":"room and and the needs that are out there and you put ask them all how we would allocate the funding, I think the response might also be of some concern."},{"t":4762,"text":"Certainly since we embarked on this um process uh the the global economic"},{"t":4770,"text":"situation at least in the immediate term has has changed significantly and and I think all organizations and most"},{"t":4778,"text":"municipal councils are um are having to pivot having to reassess what they do and I think now is the appropriate time"},{"t":4785,"text":"to have a sober second thought um on on the carnarvin. uh and I I am not in any way saying that we should do nothing"},{"t":4794,"text":"because I believe strongly that we must do something but to um to allocate this much funding to this project without"},{"t":4802,"text":"clarity on all of the risks involved is is not something I can support. Thank you."},{"t":4808,"text":"Thank you, Councelor Patterson. I always like people who are voting against to be clear about the rationale. So I appreciate the the words. Uh other discussion on the motion."},{"t":4820,"text":"Okay, go ahead, councelor Green."},{"t":4822,"text":"Yes, thank you. I'm I'm feeling similarly I am struggling with this decision. I I do recall u months ago"},{"t":4829,"text":"mentioning the fact that the the community members that I spoke to at the open house and a lot of them felt that"},{"t":4837,"text":"perhaps this particular proposal was a bit of overreach. Um, and I I don't think anyone envisions something quite"},{"t":4844,"text":"this um extensive, but I also agree that we need to do something. I think that the community was asking for a new"},{"t":4850,"text":"clubhouse. They were asking for uh washroom and showering facilities. They were asking for, I believe, a a splash"},{"t":4857,"text":"park for children and so on. Um, and those were the basics. And I think that was sort of uh something that was very"},{"t":4865,"text":"supportable. I'm struggling with this because of many of the reasons that councelor Patterson has articulated, but the fact that the economic situation"},{"t":4873,"text":"right now in Canada is incredibly uncertain with um the United States with with all kinds of things and I'm I'm not"},{"t":4880,"text":"sure committing this kind of um budget at this point is is something I'm comfortable with doing. So, I'm unable"},{"t":4888,"text":"to support this tonight. I I would have hoped that we could have phased this in in some way or um had a different kind"},{"t":4896,"text":"of plan that would allow for improvements that that were necessary and then and then have um sort of a"},{"t":4904,"text":"rethink about the extent of this building, but and and I understand the amount of work that's gone into it. I really appreciate it, but I'm I'm unable to support it tonight. Thank you."},{"t":4917,"text":"Any other discussion? Go ahead, Council and then Appleton."},{"t":4921,"text":"Um, thank you. I I am comfortable to uh to vote in favor of the motion that's"},{"t":4926,"text":"before us. I think that um uh it's really hard to predict the future,"},{"t":4935,"text":"but I I I think that the um the work, the community um patience in looking for"},{"t":4943,"text":"some improvements here, the need to invest in our community, what that says about the place of Oak Bay and our hopes and aspirations for creating good"},{"t":4951,"text":"community spaces um um and places where people can come and gather gather our role in the greater region in providing"},{"t":4960,"text":"recreational facilities. I think that this proposal is really well thought through. I think I was really pleased to see the decision map included in this"},{"t":4968,"text":"report to actually show the amount of deliberation that has gone on. We have done our due diligence. Staff are working really hard at this and I don't"},{"t":4976,"text":"think we've made any missteps. What I really see as the cautionary tale is what's happened at the crystal pool. And"},{"t":4983,"text":"I would really caution this council on putting off something because of fear of making a decision because the the the"},{"t":4990,"text":"the ramifications going can be far worse than what we're looking at right now."},{"t":4994,"text":"And I I I I personally really struggle with what's happening in the Crystal Pool. this the the larger region is going to be without a valuable swimming"},{"t":5002,"text":"facility for six or seven years because a previous council there was afraid to make a decision about an investment that was needed in the community. And I see"},{"t":5011,"text":"this kind of in the same vein. We're a smaller municipality, but these are valuable resources. And I think we have a plan. It may it may end up being uh um"},{"t":5021,"text":"look rosier financially if we're successfully with our grants but we still have the capacity to do this and um I think we should"},{"t":5031,"text":"councelor Wilson councelor Appleton and then smart thank you worship so speaking in favor of the motion that's on the floor um"},{"t":5038,"text":"this is a challenging one because of the scope and scale of the of of the cost and it is simply uh what council has"},{"t":5046,"text":"seen and what local governments all across British Columbia are confronted with is the constantly escalating costs for these types of these types of buildings, these types of facilities."},{"t":5055,"text":"And it underscores the need to act quickly and act decisively in order to land these projects and and and lock them down. As councelor Patterson noted,"},{"t":5064,"text":"you know, when we started talking about this, this was a much different number and it reflects just the everinccreasing costs of uh capital investments of this"},{"t":5072,"text":"type. And I see this very much as and and I have heard the same comments from the community asking us to focus on core"},{"t":5080,"text":"services, asking us to focus on uh key infrastructure pieces. And I think that that's reasonable and I think that this"},{"t":5087,"text":"council's done that. I think that this council and in the previous term as well has really made a focused and dedicated effort to make significant in"},{"t":5095,"text":"investments in physical infrastructure in those things that make the district run. And with this with respect to this"},{"t":5103,"text":"particular project, it is a significant cost to the district. But to my mind, it also speaks to the importance of"},{"t":5110,"text":"generational fairness as well. The underinvestment in uh infrastructure, especially core"},{"t":5118,"text":"infrastructure pieces for decades in the district, leads us to the point that we are now where we're asking a ton of the"},{"t":5125,"text":"community to invest in these pieces which have not been kept up and have not been maintained in the way that they"},{"t":5132,"text":"ought to have been over the years. And I even though there is a significant cost associated with this project, we cannot ask folks who live in the Cararvin area"},{"t":5141,"text":"and in North Oak Bay on that side of our community to forego really important community amenity upgrades uh in order"},{"t":5150,"text":"to further the cause of infrastructure upgrades. I think we've asked a lot of the community already and I think we are charged with the council to balance"},{"t":5159,"text":"those things. I think it's very important that those folks who have been waiting a really long time for that community amenity get to benefit by that"},{"t":5167,"text":"amenity and not have [clears throat] us retrench uh into uh addressing uh historical underinvestments. Uh they"},{"t":5176,"text":"they need to get that community amenity and we need to land it uh and get it underway before we see further cost increases."},{"t":5186,"text":"and council and and the district is going to wrangle with these uh types of questions again into the future uh with upgrades to our own rec center with"},{"t":5194,"text":"upgrades to we have we have a very serious need for a new protective services building eventually we're going to need a new city hall. So these are"},{"t":5203,"text":"the kinds of things that there there will always be an extraordinarily competing set of priorities with very high capital investment dollars"},{"t":5211,"text":"associated with it on a moderatesized municipality. These are hard decisions, but for the sake of the folks in the Cararvin area who've been waiting for"},{"t":5219,"text":"that amenity, would really like to see this go ahead. So, I'm definitely in support of this advancing at this time. You worship. Thank you."},{"t":5226,"text":"Thank you, councelor Appleton. Go ahead, Councelor Smart."},{"t":5230,"text":"Yeah, thank you. I'm supportive of the motion on the the table um and really excited to be at this stage. Um I I"},{"t":5238,"text":"agree with um councelor Watson's example of the cautionary tale of what's happened with Crystal Pool and I think in Oak Bay we have the the pride of of"},{"t":5247,"text":"how well we have taken care of the um Oak Bay Recreation Center. And this is the type of amenity that will not only"},{"t":5254,"text":"benefit the immediate neighborhood but the entire um community. And I still remember going doortodoor four years ago"},{"t":5262,"text":"and this was the most important issue for residents in that immediate neighborhood. There were some residents"},{"t":5270,"text":"in in tears telling me really personal stories about their family um and how they had grown up an entire generation"},{"t":5278,"text":"waiting for this to happen. And uh waiting is is only going to to cost more. And I"},{"t":5286,"text":"think this is a really fantastic project and um yeah, I'm very supportive of it."},{"t":5294,"text":"Thank you very much, Councelor Smart. Uh I guess I'm the only one who hasn't spoken yet. I I I'll say this one. And I I do uh I think where I'm coming down on"},{"t":5301,"text":"this one is I I really have a hard time supporting where we're at and and maybe a little very brief history of this when we I think we've got caught up a little"},{"t":5310,"text":"bit in sort of chasing uh opportunities for for for saving money and and maybe that's an argument for making an investment now. But in in my mind it's"},{"t":5319,"text":"it's a bit of a it isn't. And I'll explain why. When we first sort of went down this path of Canarvin Park redevelopment, we knew we wanted to do"},{"t":5327,"text":"the splash park. We knew we wanted to do the course. We knew we wanted to do almost all the pieces of this. It was years ago. We we had an opportunity at that time to uh the province had a"},{"t":5335,"text":"guarantee that they would pay 100% of the capital costs for daycare and that they had this whole push to maximize daycare. Um they would cover the the the"},{"t":5344,"text":"uh capital and they would cover the operating and have $10 a daycare. So we pivoted and said, \"Okay, instead of just replacing the the cinder block uh"},{"t":5353,"text":"washrooms and change rooms, we would actually expand that.\" that and then we said well we can even look at other things maybe some housing there and so forth which took us down another path."},{"t":5361,"text":"um ultimately came back. By the time we got to this, we have a project that doesn't have that funding and so the $9"},{"t":5369,"text":"million and so forth that was spent at the beginning of this was contingent upon us getting grants to cover the cost of the building and the building"},{"t":5377,"text":"expanded to meet the opportunity for the grants. And um you know where I am at this point is like the original crystal"},{"t":5385,"text":"pool where there was a major grant on the table that would have dropped the cost. Um, you got to seize those moments and and we're here in this sort of awkward place where we don't know if"},{"t":5394,"text":"we're going to get a grant from the federal government. It's sort of pending potential, but we don't know. I'm I'm 100% supportive of this if we get the grant. But without the grant, I really"},{"t":5402,"text":"struggle with approving this because it is a really substantial amount of money."},{"t":5406,"text":"And I think of over the last eight years putting every year two and a half two two and a half 3% every year into infrastructure reserve because we"},{"t":5414,"text":"absolutely desperately need to get in front of the of the breaking infrastructure um because it's so expensive if we if we can't we can't defer that. So it means that we're going to end up borrowing um to do that work."},{"t":5425,"text":"And so we're sort of in this cycle of it's everything about this project is good except that the grants that were originally intended that drove the"},{"t":5433,"text":"vision of it aren't there anymore. And so that's where I'm really struggling with this is how do we advance this in a way without without those grants being"},{"t":5440,"text":"available. Um, so I I sort of agree with all the comments here like we seize the moment. Uh, this is the opportunity, the design is really good has been based on"},{"t":5448,"text":"all this community feedback, but the core of it, the 65% that's the building is so was originally sort of contingent"},{"t":5456,"text":"upon that grant funding and and I find it very difficult to say, well, we don't have the grant funding, we don't have the daycare operating commitments, we don't have any of those pieces, but"},{"t":5463,"text":"we're still going to go forward with this uh, and we'll just eat the cost as local taxpayers for what is a regional asset. And that's where I struggle with this. And so I'm really struggling with"},{"t":5472,"text":"with this approach and and I I take it's good advice from the staff. I mean I think trying to do it in phases where we don't do the building and do the other"},{"t":5480,"text":"part may not be successful. Um but my feeling at this point is given that the building is was in my mind and others"},{"t":5487,"text":"may not agree was I think we came up with this design and and agreement was really contingent upon those grants and it may still be there but without them I"},{"t":5495,"text":"have a hard time supporting it going forward. So that's where I'm I'm ending up with this. Go ahead, councelor Patterson, and then I'll take councelor Green for a third time."},{"t":5505,"text":"Yes. Um, thank you, mayor. And, you know, I think this is a lesson in point."},{"t":5509,"text":"I I don't I like to use grant funding as bonuses in in other words, you you do you you you set about with your scope of"},{"t":5517,"text":"work to do what you want to achieve. And if grant funding comes through, you it it's like it's like a bonus. It it it"},{"t":5526,"text":"puts you in a better place rather than than counting on grant funding and working to that higher model which is"},{"t":5535,"text":"uncertain. You know, the crystal pool the city of Victoria would not be in the condition it is in if it had had"},{"t":5543,"text":"sustainable funding. And the increasing costs for this project aren't just a matter of costs rising over time. They"},{"t":5552,"text":"are in fact our lack of control over the scope of the project which took upon a life of"},{"t":5561,"text":"its own and and uh that is fine if you are you know if you're a new and"},{"t":5567,"text":"building community and and and these uh amenities are needed and yes carvin"},{"t":5574,"text":"needs and should have uh improvements to it because it has been neglected. for"},{"t":5581,"text":"such a long period of time. Uh but the community"},{"t":5589,"text":"was happy to know they were going to get a new clubhouse, new washrooms, new water park, refurbished pools, and not"},{"t":5598,"text":"go to quite the magnitude of the the scale of the building that we have today. And so I think there is potential"},{"t":5607,"text":"to to in fact service that part of the community with a new clubhouse and some"},{"t":5614,"text":"of these new facilities while still being mindful of the economic uncertain"},{"t":5621,"text":"times that we are in. The fact that grant funding that uh we thought would materialize and that we designed to has not materialized."},{"t":5631,"text":"And it does come back to council is here to assess the risk and to allocate funding."},{"t":5639,"text":"And I will repeat again, Oak Bay's recreation network includes five facilities, 11 pre playgrounds, 18"},{"t":5647,"text":"parks. Um, and so there there will there will be more funding required. And what I think we"},{"t":5655,"text":"need to do is ensure that for all of the facilities and our other facilities within the district that we do in fact"},{"t":5664,"text":"have sustainable funding in place to keep it in better condition than what we"},{"t":5670,"text":"have all inherited. Um and it's unfortunate this didn't happen sooner."},{"t":5676,"text":"But I, you know, I I I don't want to look at this as if we don't do exactly this model, it's a loss because I think"},{"t":5684,"text":"a reduced model and the resulting savings to it can still be a win for the district and be a more prudent thing to"},{"t":5693,"text":"do in this economic uncertainty and uh maybe reduce the need to have collected"},{"t":5702,"text":"tax revenues that we said we were going to use for in infrastructure. ffstruure renewal and transferring them to um to a"},{"t":5710,"text":"discretionary project instead because I think that longer term that doesn't work"},{"t":5717,"text":"well in in trust and credibility of the of the community. Um they're paying for those core services today. It's"},{"t":5725,"text":"difficult enough because um some folks are getting new infrastructure and new core services, others won't get them for"},{"t":5732,"text":"a decade or more. So I I think um this is a project that could be scaled back"},{"t":5740,"text":"to be more realistic to the changing circumstances we find ourselves in. So I'm not saying do nothing. I am saying"},{"t":5750,"text":"uh be cognizant of where we are today and retrans to to assess what we can do"},{"t":5759,"text":"that will provide uh a a good recreational facility for for the district without perhaps going to the"},{"t":5768,"text":"fullest full scope of the the building that is before us. Thank you."},{"t":5773,"text":"Thank you councelor Patterson. Uh councelor Green for a third time. Do you I'm cognizant I don't I don't want to get too far down the path of arguing what else could be we have a motion on"},{"t":5782,"text":"the floor which I've heard four of seven supporting and and and if that goes forward then it will go forward and we'll wait and see if there's a grant or"},{"t":5789,"text":"not. Um only really if this motion fails I really want to get into conversations about what what else and a different approach to it but I haven't heard that's a likely outcome here but I do"},{"t":5797,"text":"want to hear from any additional arguments to be made."},{"t":5800,"text":"I will be very brief. I just want to say this is not the fact that I'm not supporting this motion is not no to recreation or improved recreation at"},{"t":5808,"text":"Cararvin. It is absolutely yes. We need to make fundamental improvements. But I agree with councelor Patterson and and"},{"t":5816,"text":"the mayor. It's about the scale, the scope and and the financial risk to manage between now and the time the"},{"t":5824,"text":"grant may or may not come through. If it comes through, that's a whole different um kettle of fish. But at this point in time, it it is fundamentally about risk"},{"t":5832,"text":"management. But I would like I I would love to see a plan that scales back the improvements but provides the fundamentals that people shared with"},{"t":5840,"text":"councelor Smart at the doorstep because I remember some of those people too and it and it's true Karvin is you know has"},{"t":5847,"text":"not been um well maintained over the years and hasn't caught up with some of the modern recreational approaches. So"},{"t":5855,"text":"um I I just want to be very clear though it's not no to recreation but it is no to this part particular level of risk."},{"t":5864,"text":"Okay I'm seeing no other hand looking to call the question. The motion on the floor is a staff recommendation to advance. Uh all those in favor have"},{"t":5872,"text":"councelor Watson Appleton Braithweight and Smart in favor. Those opposed I have councelor Patterson Green and myself opposed. That does carry. Crossing my"},{"t":5881,"text":"fingers for the grant. Uh here's hoping we'll keep uh applying soft pressure wherever we can uh to see that it would make a world of difference obviously to"},{"t":5889,"text":"this project. So uh look forward to seeing positive outcome uh out of all this and uh and obviously really looking forward to seeing that part to see this"},{"t":5897,"text":"redevelopment happen. Uh that concludes item 7.1. Uh that took a little longer than I had in my anticipated schedule but I think it was a really worthwhile"},{"t":5905,"text":"discussion for us to to have those level of detail. We moved to section eight."},{"t":5909,"text":"This is reports and memorandums. These are not subject to public input. Um, so first up is the housing supply act. Uh,"},{"t":5916,"text":"we have an interim housing target order report that's scheduled to go to the province. Is Miss Cook on join? Oh, we"},{"t":5924,"text":"have Mr. Green, Mr. B."},{"t":5932,"text":"Thank you, Mr. Graham. Welcome."},{"t":5942,"text":"Did you wish to provide a brief in introduction to this item? And if so, you can take a moment to open up your laptop and get prepared. Um, I can maybe"},{"t":5951,"text":"just provide a brief overview. This is a uh part of our standard requirement to provide reports back to the province under their housing target orders. Um, this report was asked for in the summer."},{"t":5960,"text":"We were unable to get to it this summer, so we sent a note saying it would have to be in September. So, here we are now with the report. Uh, Mr. Green over to you. Hope we gave you enough time."},{"t":5968,"text":"Yeah. Good evening, worship, members of council. This report relates to the request from the Minister of Housing and Municipal Affairs to submit interim"},{"t":5976,"text":"housing target order reports and specifically this report relates to period Q2 of this year, which is for the period between April the 1st, 2026 and"},{"t":5984,"text":"June the 30th, 2026. The report summarizes net new housing units and provides updates on other housing related actions. Should council endorse"},{"t":5993,"text":"the report. The report would then be sent to the Minister of Municipal Housing Affairs by September the 15th, which was the uh uh new uh deadline that was provided to us by the minister."},{"t":6004,"text":"Happy to answer any questions that council may have on the report. Great. Thank you very much, Mr. Green. Uh any questions for members of council?"},{"t":6013,"text":"Councelor Smart and then briefly."},{"t":6017,"text":"Uh yes, through you may staff. Just thanks for the report. I just I just wanted a little um opportunity perhaps if staff could just discuss kind of um"},{"t":6025,"text":"where we're at in meeting our overall um housing um targets and kind of how we're trending I guess as far as our thing are"},{"t":6033,"text":"we in increasing our ability to provide more housing opportunities in our community during this reporting period"},{"t":6041,"text":"versus the earlier one like is there a little bit you could share on the sort of um trends of supplying housing needs?"},{"t":6048,"text":"Thank you. Sure. Over to you, Mr. Green."},{"t":6054,"text":"Uh, so the report sets out that we are currently at the end of this interim period, 73 net new dwelling units. Uh,"},{"t":6062,"text":"we're almost approaching the end of reporting period three, which will end on September the 30th of uh, this year."},{"t":6071,"text":"Uh, and within that housing tiger order, by the end of that year three, we should have achieved 258 units. So we are uh"},{"t":6080,"text":"some way off that um number of units. In terms of trends that we did see assess I guess in 2024 2025 we did see an"},{"t":6089,"text":"increase in net new housing units with the introduction of SMO and changes to the OCP uh as well as changes to the"},{"t":6096,"text":"zoning bylaw. I would say this year we since the requirement for development permit and since the we adopted a a new"},{"t":6106,"text":"updated OCP we have seen a uh probably a decrease in that uh pipeline of bigger applications particularly reszoning"},{"t":6114,"text":"applications or applications requiring an amendment to the OCP and so that pipeline has been reduced"},{"t":6121,"text":"acknowledging that obviously there are other projects that we have introduced um more recently with in terms of delegating development permits to staff"},{"t":6129,"text":"and obviously that is noted in the report."},{"t":6139,"text":"Uh thanks very much mayor. Um thanks very much for the report. Um I one thing I did notice is that um there were zero withdrawn or denied applications in the"},{"t":6148,"text":"in this in this period. I think that's really significant. So um that's great."},{"t":6152,"text":"Um, and I'm wondering if you can tell me how many applications have been processed under the new delegated"},{"t":6159,"text":"authorities. Um, so how many housing units have those delegations enabled if if we have that figure?"},{"t":6167,"text":"Uh since council adopted the new OCP with the requirement for a development permit for any development of three or"},{"t":6174,"text":"four units on a lot then we have only received or was only approved one development permit which was for an accessory dwelling unit which triggered"},{"t":6184,"text":"the requirement for a DP because they already had two units on the lot. So that has been the only DP that we have approved for a new dwelling unit. We do have uh a couple in the pipeline."},{"t":6194,"text":"There's I think there's been two recently submitted for I think one lot with three units and another a lot with four units on it, but they are in still"},{"t":6202,"text":"in in in the process of being uh uh determined. Thank you, Professor Patterson."},{"t":6211,"text":"Yes. Thank you, Mayor. Thanks for the report, Mr. Green. I just um I I guess that as we are responding to"},{"t":6220,"text":"the provincial housing order, I think somehow we have lost some of the um municipal goals for infill housing. And"},{"t":6230,"text":"so my question is is you know the reporting of course talks about the units that are are created in the"},{"t":6239,"text":"community but it doesn't really give us um any feedback on whether what is being developed is is actually being absorbed."},{"t":6250,"text":"And certainly in in in professional real estate, you you look at absorption rates because if you're not if you're not getting absorption rates, you're you're"},{"t":6258,"text":"not successfully developing um uh a product that the market wants."},{"t":6265,"text":"And so while yes, we will receive um tax revenues from some of the units that"},{"t":6272,"text":"have been developed, many of the new units that have been developed are still sitting vacant."},{"t":6279,"text":"And uh so I guess my question for the building and planning department is how do we as a council and a community"},{"t":6288,"text":"uh work to not only meet numbers on paper, the targets of the provincial um"},{"t":6295,"text":"order, but to to understand what will actually be absorbed into the"},{"t":6303,"text":"marketplace and provide quality housing for um for residents coming to the community. And so I'm just wondering if"},{"t":6312,"text":"our if our building and planning department can can talk to that because we did originally set out before the provincial housing order to do infill"},{"t":6320,"text":"housing and um somehow we we've lost that in the in the process of responding to the province."},{"t":6327,"text":"Mr. Green, thank you for the question through your your worship to councilwait. Um, obviously council earlier this year in January received a"},{"t":6336,"text":"report on an update on Infill housing and in that report it it provided a summary of all the new infill housing projects that uh were either under"},{"t":6346,"text":"construction or just been completed and I think uh it will be good to do that summary report to council in in another"},{"t":6353,"text":"year's time to provide a further update in terms of uh where things are up to in terms of units completed but also to do some analysis of who are now living in"},{"t":6362,"text":"those units were did they or did those pe new people those new residents come from did they come from within a bay did they move from somewhere else in the C"},{"t":6371,"text":"or did they move from another province to try and understand who is buying those units and to understand how many of those units have been sold and obviously we are in a a challenging"},{"t":6380,"text":"housing market at this point in time which may uh also result in some of those units sitting uh vacant longer than probably would have happened say"},{"t":6389,"text":"two two three years ago when there was a uh by a better housing market conditions."},{"t":6400,"text":"Thanks, mayor. I would like to add uh two other things as well. Um regarding absorption and absorption rates, that's not really the district's role. So, we"},{"t":6408,"text":"have created a land use framework to allow for new housing to be developed."},{"t":6412,"text":"And we see we also saw on the report from January a good mix of units accessory dwelling units duplexes triplexes forlexes which is positive"},{"t":6421,"text":"because that is still adding to the housing supply. What we see now with the triplexes and forplexes is that the people that intended to sell them have"},{"t":6428,"text":"to figure out what is the right sale price for them or do they need to be rented? Either way I am hopeful that in over time somebody will be living in"},{"t":6436,"text":"those units either a renter or an owner and that it will have to sort itself out. Um, and that's that's something I"},{"t":6443,"text":"wanted to add. So, in terms of housing supply, I think it's still the range of options that we were envisioning would"},{"t":6450,"text":"happen. And but yeah, as the market changes and uh people's preferences or or ability to pay as well are changing,"},{"t":6458,"text":"it's it's going to be up to the to the people building housing to determine what can they build at what moment in time and what is the tenure, what's the"},{"t":6466,"text":"price point. So, I just wanted to add to that. Thanks, Don't see any other discussion. So the"},{"t":6474,"text":"motion here is just as noted to uh direct staff to provide this to the to the province of the report. The report is a factual report. So there's not much"},{"t":6482,"text":"in the way of of inference in it. Just the just the report. So so moved your worship."},{"t":6487,"text":"There's a staff recommendation. Is there a second? Seconded. Thank you. Any other discussion? Seeing none. All those in favor? Any opposed? Not opposed. We move"},{"t":6496,"text":"then to 8.2 award of tenders. the sewer lift station upgrades at Rack of Fle and King George Terrace. Uh I see we have our director. Oh, welcome."},{"t":6509,"text":"We have Mr. Smukovich here from our uh engineering department. I'll give you a moment to sit down and and uh be prepared to provide a presentation or your introduction."},{"t":6518,"text":"Yes. Thank you uh mayor and council uh this evening uh for providing an opportunity to yes uh present the staff"},{"t":6527,"text":"recommendation to award uh the construction contract for the King George Terrace and the Radcliffe pump station um construction contract to the"},{"t":6534,"text":"lowest compliant bidder uh Hazelwood Construction Services Limited. Um I could provide a bit more detail. Um the"},{"t":6543,"text":"purpose of this report um is to seek council approval um in accordance with the sustainable purchasing policy and"},{"t":6550,"text":"capital work plan. Uh the project to upgrade the King George Terrace and Radcliffe Lane uh pump station originate"},{"t":6557,"text":"originated sorry [clears throat] from Oak Bay's sanitary sewer master plan submitted to the district May 4th, 2022."},{"t":6565,"text":"The initial recommendation from the master plan was to complete a full electrical component replacement as part of the two to fiveyear plan. However,"},{"t":6574,"text":"after consultant was uh hired to design the electrical upgrades, a full assessment, more detailed assessment of the structural um operational access"},{"t":6583,"text":"components was completed and it was determined that both pump stations required further safety and uh compliance upgrades and hence uh the the"},{"t":6592,"text":"need for uh proceeding with construction. Um we do have um budget uh assigned for this in 2026 of 600,000 in"},{"t":6600,"text":"2027 another 600,000 a total of $1.2 million. Um currently under the current"},{"t":6607,"text":"design plan we have a consultant for the um detailed design IFC drawings ready to go. Uh and yes we we're seeking the approval to award to the lowest bidder."},{"t":6618,"text":"Great. Thank you very much. Thank you. Uh any questions for staff on this? Councelor Patterson smart briefly."},{"t":6625,"text":"Yes. Thank you, Mayor. Thank you for that report, Mr. Simukovich. Um, just one question, I guess. Uh, certainly not"},{"t":6632,"text":"about the awarding of the contract. I don't I don't think there's uh there's much discretion in what has to be done."},{"t":6640,"text":"So, um, fortunately did um it fits within the budget, but it is significantly under budget. Um, and I"},{"t":6649,"text":"I'm just wondering if there's a rationale for for um why I mean optimistically um costs of construction"},{"t":6658,"text":"would go down, but that that's not necessarily believable unless the construction industry is looking for more work um or is it um is it just"},{"t":6668,"text":"because we're prudent in in how we are um how we are budgeting in the early stages of doing some of these replacements?"},{"t":6676,"text":"Yes. So I should be clear the budget for the 1.2 million is for de for the design uh and the uh construction services as"},{"t":6684,"text":"well as construction. So those there's engineering fees involved. So with those total fees the it'll will be quite a lot closer with the contingency and it is a"},{"t":6693,"text":"unit price contract through MMCD. So there is always uh some risk that's carried with uh change orders and impacts that we can't foresee right now."},{"t":6702,"text":"Uh but at this present time we think that the 1.2 2 million should cover us for engineering um and construction."},{"t":6708,"text":"Thank you. Smart and then briefly."},{"t":6714,"text":"Um no, thank you. Um I just had a um quick question um through you may merit to staff just about again the particular"},{"t":6721,"text":"procurement policy that would apply to this. Could you just um uh potentially just give us a a general sense of"},{"t":6728,"text":"whether the procurement policy that would apply to this um assuming that it might be our um"},{"t":6735,"text":"um sustainable procurement policy like does it does it address um things like the sustainability of um the"},{"t":6743,"text":"organizations um that have applied things like providing a living wage to employers."},{"t":6751,"text":"um aspects of of things like like that when we're considering inevitably hiring the lowest bidder. I just wondered if you could elaborate on that a little bit."},{"t":6761,"text":"Um I'm not aware of that being directly um evaluated during our process. Um but it's something I can take back and"},{"t":6769,"text":"follow up with you on or with through the mayor. Um I do believe that um through the insuranceances of the"},{"t":6776,"text":"contractors um and the regulation requirements to perform work under current legal enactments in British"},{"t":6783,"text":"Columbia, we do have under the MMC contract the requirement for the contractors performing the work for the District of Ooke Bay to follow all"},{"t":6792,"text":"enactments. So there might be a gray area there that uh we could probably look at. But similar to the um award um"},{"t":6801,"text":"that uh David Graham was speaking about earlier at a certain threshold you have to generally follow through the trade agreement certain purchasing policies."},{"t":6810,"text":"So um in in in some way um our hands are a bit tied in how we do the process. Um but yeah I hope that gives you a bit"},{"t":6818,"text":"more context. Um answer yeah thank you very much and and Mahalo can correct me if I'm wrong but I believe this was an invitation to"},{"t":6826,"text":"tender. um which is uh different than a request for proposal where we can add in additional criteria about how we want to"},{"t":6834,"text":"evaluate that but under an invitation to tender. It is lowest price. Thank you. Thank you."},{"t":6842,"text":"Uh thanks very much. Um I'm just wondering if uh if one station will stay open while the other is being under construction. Um and what the"},{"t":6850,"text":"contingency arrangements will be if something like if if you experience a failure for that. And then we have another five stations as well, right?"},{"t":6858,"text":"And maybe just touch on where they're at in their replacements. I know it has nothing to do with this, but it's just out of interest. Thanks,"},{"t":6865,"text":"Mr. Sukovich through the mayor. Thank you. Um, Council Braithweight. Um, the"},{"t":6872,"text":"contingency plans currently, yes, are to do one and then the other, not both at the same time. So, that's one aspect of risk management. The other one is"},{"t":6880,"text":"bypass. uh that there is a entire plan and a submitt required by the contractor that we will review uh which requires"},{"t":6887,"text":"worker safety and operational um maintaining operational needs of the of the system so that we don't rely on um"},{"t":6894,"text":"the third I guess the the second level which is hydrovac trucks they're very expensive if we have to do that um but"},{"t":6902,"text":"there that is the sort of final option um we don't anticipate service impacts to the to the community through"},{"t":6910,"text":"um other than driving and uh park and some parking along the area because that's a very tight road at King George Terrace. It's just before you go up the"},{"t":6919,"text":"hill if you're going westward um in the double-decker bus lane. So, it'll be that that one will be tricky. Radcliffe"},{"t":6927,"text":"will be a little bit uh easier. Um yeah, I hope that provides answer. Go to the other question."},{"t":6934,"text":"Oh, sorry. the second part, the five uh the other five uh we do have a program uh we've established utility annual"},{"t":6942,"text":"programs for all of our utilities and we're reviewing prioritization through the master plans. Um Baler station is next on the on the list for us and I"},{"t":6952,"text":"know that the CRD is uh also working on on a couple of their stations. Uh and we're also going to be working on the Curry uh supply line to the Curry minor."},{"t":6961,"text":"So there's quite a lot of work planned in the next three four years for sanitary upgrades, but for the next sort of six to 10 months, this is our our focus for sanitary."},{"t":6971,"text":"Got it."},{"t":6972,"text":"Thank you very much. Does any other questions? So we have a proposed motion in front of us here. I'm going to probably ask that somebody put that on the table. So moved by council reading."},{"t":6982,"text":"Uh do you want it read in? Is that appropriate?"},{"t":6987,"text":"You might miss ask Miss Anderson, do you prefer to have given us a tender award, do you want it read into the record or just move the staff recommendation is sufficient."},{"t":6996,"text":"Moving the staff recommendation will be sufficient. Okay. So moved and seconded. Thank you."},{"t":7000,"text":"Any other discussion on this? Not seeing any. All those in favor? Any opposed?"},{"t":7004,"text":"None opposed. Thank you. We then move to item number 8.3, the single egress stairwell review. We have M. Chief"},{"t":7012,"text":"McDonald here uh to provide a update."},{"t":7020,"text":"I'd be so tempted to just call everybody Mr. Mr. Sudier."},{"t":7025,"text":"Um uh welcome Chief. Uh we have a report in front of us here. So uh if you could provide an introduction."},{"t":7034,"text":"Uh good evening your worship and members of council. Uh just a brief uh intro on this. Um I think if if council recalls"},{"t":7041,"text":"back in November of 2025 during the OCP review, there was um a discussion on one of the OCP policies related to single"},{"t":7049,"text":"rest stairs that um was really the first time that I think that council had an opportunity to receive any information"},{"t":7055,"text":"or general discussion about uh the new um code changes that went into the BC"},{"t":7063,"text":"building code in August of 2024. Uh so council asked at that point for uh fire and planning uh departments to come back"},{"t":7072,"text":"with additional information for council which is now before you tonight as well as uh uh providing uh some policy"},{"t":7079,"text":"options. So this is a obviously a very technical topic. Uh so it's hard not to write somewhat of a technical report but"},{"t":7086,"text":"we've tried to write it in as simple terms as possible. Um, you know, the the issue is is uh quite broad and farreaching as far as the impacts. Uh"},{"t":7096,"text":"but we've we've tried to you know give some history uh the context explain the assumptions that are in the building code provide some broader you know"},{"t":7104,"text":"international context as well and then um you know outline the impacts to to us as a um a local fire department as well"},{"t":7112,"text":"as provide a little bit of context on what some other municipalities of a similar size uh in regards to fire departments are doing around the"},{"t":7119,"text":"province and um happy to u be available for questions along with Mr."},{"t":7126,"text":"Great. Thank you very much. I just for clarification, what we have for a policy right now is in the OCP, it essentially says that single egress errors may be"},{"t":7134,"text":"considered on a case- by case basis and at that point they be looked at by the fire department. Is that is that essentially where we're at right now, Mr. Chief?"},{"t":7144,"text":"Um, yeah, that's how it it it's worded."},{"t":7147,"text":"However, it it really uh puts a lot of uh you know individual um"},{"t":7157,"text":"decision-m on the fire department rather than having um a very uh broad and consistent approach as well as trying to be very um uh consistent and transparent"},{"t":7166,"text":"for the uh building and development community."},{"t":7170,"text":"Thank you. I'm just trying to make sure I'm clear that everybody around this table understands sort of the options because there's no options in this report. It's it's says that the direct"},{"t":7179,"text":"staff have to bring forth that if this is not if it's just received, we would essentially rely on the OCP wording. So if a developer wanted to do a single"},{"t":7187,"text":"egress there, they would have to make the case and staff would review it. Is that essentially where we're at in terms of the two possible directions here and Mr. Bull?"},{"t":7196,"text":"Yeah, thank you, Mayor. That's indeed the case. If you would just receive it, that would stay the same. I think from my perspective, that would not quite"},{"t":7204,"text":"represent the situation. uh fairly because as we tried to explain in this report uh single eco stairs in the"},{"t":7212,"text":"scenarios that the building code foresees are are just very challenging or not possible for our size of community let alone most uh BC"},{"t":7221,"text":"communities to support. So uh if people ask us uh applicants staff directly we would say well it's unlikely you get it"},{"t":7229,"text":"supported uh un unless you're really small building there's one example of an existing building in town that has a single egress there but it's only two"},{"t":7238,"text":"stories is a very different situation these are for higher buildings and in those cases uh as staff we feel we need to be pretty clear that that's not"},{"t":7246,"text":"something that is supportable at this point. Okay, thank you for that clarification and turn to questions from council. I'll go to councelor smart and then green."},{"t":7259,"text":"Yeah, up to you mayor. Um um staff, thank you for the report. Um so I guess yeah, my first question is um maybe with"},{"t":7266,"text":"regards to the similar type of example that you just provided. So if you know potentially someone came forward with a"},{"t":7273,"text":"threestory sixunit um building with a a single stair um with the prop with the options in this report to create a"},{"t":7281,"text":"policy or to simply receive it and not create a policy. Is there potential that that policy actually defines a a a small"},{"t":7291,"text":"amount of buildings that would be able to be considered or is the assumption that if we go ahead with the policy it's just going to clarify that we're not"},{"t":7299,"text":"going to consider it at all? Thank you through the mayor. Uh thank you for the question and and"},{"t":7307,"text":"um if we get to the point where we can have a policy I think um we would have an opportunity where we could be consistent in the approach which is"},{"t":7315,"text":"we're not able to support at this time for any SCES building and if we end up being in a situation where we're having"},{"t":7322,"text":"to individually assess we can um you know it it it makes it very tough for the uh development community and I think"},{"t":7330,"text":"it you know for for council as well as uh you know the reviewing departments makes it quite difficult to be really"},{"t":7338,"text":"you know black and white as far as expectations go. Hopefully that answers your question."},{"t":7347,"text":"Um yeah, thank you. I'm I'm still feeling a little bit of a lack of clarity, but I'm um I guess just to ask a clarifying question. So it sounds like"},{"t":7354,"text":"if we did go ahead with the policy, there might be an opportunity to look at some small options. if you could just"},{"t":7363,"text":"clarify. Thanks, Chief. Uh through the mayor. Um yeah,"},{"t":7375,"text":"there is an opportunity. Uh Mr. Bol, I was just confirring about, you know, clarifying some existing buildings where"},{"t":7382,"text":"um there might be some opportunities to uh have some flexibility there. But as"},{"t":7389,"text":"far as a new build, we really would be quite limited with regards to our ability to support."},{"t":7397,"text":"Yeah. Thank you, Mayor. Um um so I guess my question is and I can understand um how complicated it would"},{"t":7406,"text":"be to carve out a a smaller scope. Um, and so I'm wondering like is there a"},{"t":7413,"text":"role here um, you know, for council to help advocate to the the province where we should be um, suggesting that we"},{"t":7421,"text":"almost need a defined tier of single egress stair design that would be appropriate for smaller municipalities."},{"t":7428,"text":"I just wonder is there a a role here for us to say to the province like you know we'd like to be able to do some but even"},{"t":7435,"text":"just defining what would what would be safe like how many units how many floors um you know is a time consuming and you"},{"t":7444,"text":"know task that needs to be you know tackled externally uh through the chair um"},{"t":7454,"text":"you know I think in the wisdom of the province with the way they rolled this out They tried to do that. However, they did not define any um specific"},{"t":7463,"text":"operational requirements for a municipality to actually uh deliver on."},{"t":7468,"text":"So, it's really um quite ambiguous for an individ individual municipality to um you know self-determine whether they're"},{"t":7476,"text":"comfortable uh with their level with their service level and uh being able to absorb the risk uh in perpetuity for the"},{"t":7484,"text":"the community. So I I and I don't know that we're going to see the province come out um with defining service levels"},{"t":7493,"text":"um for fire response. And and there's a there's a much broader aspect to this."},{"t":7498,"text":"If you you know you read um the Carlton report uh that was done for the National Research Council and the additional"},{"t":7506,"text":"research they're doing. there's there's a a huge myriad of deficiencies on research that needs to be uh dealt with and it is broader than than just fire"},{"t":7515,"text":"staffing. Uh there's a whole bunch of different uh pieces of research that really needs to be done and it would have been you know quite helpful if uh"},{"t":7523,"text":"the province waited for the National Research Council to inform the um harmonized building code and ultimately the national building code uh which then"},{"t":7532,"text":"would provide much more of a national standard for provinces to inform their um their provincial building code changes."},{"t":7542,"text":"Anything else?"},{"t":7543,"text":"Uh thank you. Yes, mayor. I guess my next question is like could you just help um us to understand a little bit"},{"t":7550,"text":"more how a brand new building that would have rated fire assemblies, sprinklers, um fire dampers, um all the whistles and"},{"t":7559,"text":"bells and only be six or eight units and have maybe 12 people sharing a stair be"},{"t":7565,"text":"less safe than some of our existing 40 or 60 unit buildings that are, you know, sure they have two stairs, but they"},{"t":7574,"text":"maybe 120 people going down a woodframe building that has no sprinklers. Um, I guess the report made me concerned generally for our capacity to deal with"},{"t":7583,"text":"our existing multif family housing stock more than, you know, the potential introduction of new buildings that have"},{"t":7590,"text":"all these levels of um, you know, fire stopping and safety um, design. So, I wondered if you could just elaborate a little bit on why we should be so afraid"},{"t":7598,"text":"of these new buildings that have all these redundant levels of of safety. um you know like this feels like a almost"},{"t":7607,"text":"like an argument towards um needing a regional um fire department uh with regards to our existing housing stock."},{"t":7614,"text":"So could you just elaborate on why we need to be afraid of new housing uh design according to the BC building code"},{"t":7621,"text":"but not worried about this existing housing stock that we have that um is quite deficient in a lot of these different safety measures."},{"t":7630,"text":"Is that you chief?"},{"t":7632,"text":"Sure the chair. Um so I I think um you know what we've you know tried to elaborate is the the"},{"t":7641,"text":"assumptions that that the province has and I think you know some of the the the most significant challenges is uh when"},{"t":7648,"text":"you're trying to rely on a building that is uh built around a systemsbased"},{"t":7654,"text":"um uh safety system. So when I say systemsbased, it it's really relying on mechanical systems and you know um just"},{"t":7664,"text":"this year we you know had a um we do routine fire inspections. You know we came across a building that was uh"},{"t":7672,"text":"without a fire alarm operational for 3 months. You know the u backup battery system was physically disconnected. The"},{"t":7680,"text":"residents were not aware. Um, and you know, doesn't matter if you have a brand new building or if you have an old building, the system's not protected."},{"t":7689,"text":"And then when you're forcing people to re rely on a single stairway, um, there's a huge element of risk. The other aspect is, uh, from a training"},{"t":7698,"text":"perspective, I think council's well aware of some of the training deficiencies that that, you know, Bayfire has. uh from a uh infrastructure"},{"t":7705,"text":"perspective. We don't have the ability to train the way that's envisioned to operate in these types of buildings"},{"t":7712,"text":"period. Uh neither does any other fire department in the region. Uh there are significant um you decisions that need"},{"t":7720,"text":"to be made that is more of a ready aim fire approach rather than a different version that was undertaken and implemented."},{"t":7728,"text":"Um, in in regards to overall safety, I I'm not going to argue that a new newer building design in general is not safer"},{"t":7736,"text":"than an older building design. But, you know, when we look back to uh, you know, 1920, there were a large number of"},{"t":7744,"text":"buildings in the province of BC that were built with single ingress stairs."},{"t":7749,"text":"And the fire commissioner in 1921 ordered every one of those buildings to be retrofitted with exterior fire escapes. And those are still in place."},{"t":7757,"text":"and you see them around uh the province and you know we do not want to be in that situation. We are making decisions now that will last for the lifetime of the building."},{"t":7769,"text":"Anything else counc No, I I have comments but that's all my questions at this point. Thank you."},{"t":7779,"text":"Sorry. And probably the mo the simple and most important life safety issue is smoke. And that is the biggest issue."},{"t":7788,"text":"And um regardless of the exhaust systems that are in those buildings, if we are trying to do fire attack or evacuation"},{"t":7798,"text":"in that same stairwell, the system cannot cope. as well as being"},{"t":7805,"text":"mindful that we're um basically at the the start of a title wave that's coming um with with risks for buildings like"},{"t":7814,"text":"this with lithium ion or rechargeable battery devices. And you know, they're very concerning from um you know,"},{"t":7822,"text":"mobility devices that end up getting stored or charged in hallways or stairwells. And you know, the the"},{"t":7830,"text":"volatility of fires related to rechargeable batteries are extremely serious. Uh as well as the toxicity of"},{"t":7837,"text":"the smoke that they produce is is um exceptionally dangerous."},{"t":7843,"text":"Thank you, Chief. I'm going to go my speaking order is councilors Green Braithweight Watson Appleton. Question. Okay. Thank you, Councelor Braithweight."},{"t":7852,"text":"Yeah. Just um a a question for staff on if this policy does go ahead um tonight."},{"t":7858,"text":"Um I I was wondering if how staff would feel about um adding in to the policy that that it would be reviewed like every two years or if there's a"},{"t":7866,"text":"significant change to the BC building code um just to kind of so that we have the ability to go and change if if needed."},{"t":7875,"text":"Uh so just to clarify I think for tonight um we if if you would like us to come back we would come back with a policy that council will then review and"},{"t":7884,"text":"we um and the ability to review it um you know on a a bianual um basis would"},{"t":7892,"text":"be something that is is generally being built in and what we're seeing around uh the province by um four or five other communities that have adopted similar"},{"t":7900,"text":"policies this year. They're all going uh on typically a two or three year review uh process."},{"t":7908,"text":"Chief, I have councelor Watson and Appleton."},{"t":7912,"text":"Uh thank you. Um um um I do have a few questions. Councelor Smart actually asked um um I thought very clearly one"},{"t":7920,"text":"of them given you know what a modern building includes um why we still thought it was so high risk. And I did I wanted to go back to the 1920 buildings"},{"t":7930,"text":"that got retrofitted that are still operating, many of which I guess all of which I lived in one um don't have"},{"t":7936,"text":"sprinklers but are now deemed to provide sufficient fire safety."},{"t":7941,"text":"Is there no way somebody could construct today using the building code a single egress stairway that included those features that would make it safe?"},{"t":7954,"text":"we've accept I guess we've accepted that for more than a century and um that was a solution that's still in place. So I I"},{"t":7961,"text":"do wonder about that uh through the mayor. Um you know thank you for the question. I think the yes it"},{"t":7970,"text":"it is conceivable to do that. You know that that's definitely beyond my my technical perview. Um you know the one"},{"t":7978,"text":"severely limiting factor here is you just the capability of our fire department."},{"t":7984,"text":"We are incredibly understaffed as envisioned by the province to support this type of um building for the"},{"t":7992,"text":"lifespan of it. And you also need to as as outlined in the report with regards"},{"t":7998,"text":"to um our ability to provide rescue for occupants versus our requirement to"},{"t":8005,"text":"provide rescue for our staff. And under our current service levels of of minimum staffing of five personnel, we cannot"},{"t":8013,"text":"maintain fire operations on the interior of a building beyond 10 minutes. So if we go in and we're on air, we're limited"},{"t":8020,"text":"to a maximum of 10 minutes. And that doesn't mean you go 10 minutes in and then 10 minutes out, you have to be outside the building by 10 minutes. So"},{"t":8030,"text":"you might be limited at going five or six minutes in and then making sure you're outside the building by 10 minutes. And we're not permitted under"},{"t":8038,"text":"work safety go back in the building until a rapid intervention team is set up for the rescue of our employees and that is our legal responsibility."},{"t":8051,"text":"Yeah, thank you. I also wanted to ask just because it is brought up in the report about the frequency of inspections for all multi-unit buildings"},{"t":8058,"text":"um in Oak Bay and what the what the schedule is right now. you identified a a hazard that was discovered through an"},{"t":8066,"text":"inspection and I suppose um I I just wanted to know how how fre how frequent that is and um um and how often these"},{"t":8076,"text":"kinds of like risks are identified and need to be corrected in whatever age of building"},{"t":8086,"text":"uh through the mayor. Um, so typically for an occupancy classification of of that type, we would inspect once a year."},{"t":8094,"text":"Um, however, if we did have a single eress stair building and we would be in there no less than four times a year"},{"t":8102,"text":"would be what we would uh determine to be the requirement to deal with the risk classification to because we're limited"},{"t":8110,"text":"to the single um stairwell to make sure that there's no illegal storage um any flammable combustible items that are"},{"t":8118,"text":"where they shouldn't be and and ensuring that the fire life safety systems are fully operational. and inspected."},{"t":8125,"text":"Yeah. Yes. So I I I saw that in the report and I wondered why it would be different from a why those particular elements why the frequency would change"},{"t":8133,"text":"because you could still have those problems in um buildings that had two stairwells uh through the mayor. Uh for the simple"},{"t":8141,"text":"reason is there's two ways two options out of a building. if you have uh a"},{"t":8147,"text":"regular building versus if you have a SCES building, if you have a fire um on"},{"t":8155,"text":"the ground floor or or the uh the first level of the stairwell, there's no way out. You're requiring from us to come"},{"t":8163,"text":"and physically rescue you, right? I understand that. I suppose in buildings that have two stairwells, you could have the problems in both"},{"t":8170,"text":"stairwell, too. I you know so yeah which just points to the importance of fire safety inspections. I just finally I guess I I'm I'm so perplexed by the idea"},{"t":8179,"text":"that um the province would have taken an initiative to try and um create new provisions for really um"},{"t":8190,"text":"quality housing um reducing cost and that it sounds like nobody in the province is going to take this up. That"},{"t":8197,"text":"just seems to me like a policy failure or something. And I I I wondered to what extent the the fire services across BC"},{"t":8205,"text":"uh would would would take up the challenge and find a way through this to actually create a a workable outcome because clearly these buildings do exist"},{"t":8214,"text":"elsewhere notwithstanding that they they may have um different structure to their fire services. So, I just wonder, I guess it's following up on councelor"},{"t":8221,"text":"SM's question, if you know of at large, I mean, you're organized across the province as a as a group, um um if if"},{"t":8229,"text":"you're if there's any plans to um sort of find a way to promote this. chief."},{"t":8236,"text":"Uh through the mayor, um I I'm not aware of uh any departments or associations"},{"t":8244,"text":"across North America and and and I literally mean across North America that are advocates for it uh in the fire"},{"t":8251,"text":"industry. And you know, if you look at the city of Seattle where they have allowed uh a single era building since"},{"t":8257,"text":"uh the early 1970s, you know, the chief fire prevention officer uh for the Seattle Fire Department that Dr. Karen"},{"t":8264,"text":"Grove uh you know, she's been very loud and clear that although they permit them, they're not advocates for them and they certainly don't uh recommend them"},{"t":8273,"text":"for all communities around North America. uh as I outlined in the report um you know Seattle's got 33 stations"},{"t":8280,"text":"and over a thousand personnel and they don't build an SCES building where they cannot forecast they can have 30"},{"t":8287,"text":"firefighters on scene within dispatch within 8 minutes and multiple ladder trucks that is their requirement and"},{"t":8294,"text":"that's very similar to the National Fire Protection Association uh consensus based standard um for that type of uh occupancy."},{"t":8305,"text":"Thank you. you. I guess without some history of the buildings and looking at their fire records, it's hard to figure out how you'd move forward because if nobody's going to do it, you're never going to know."},{"t":8314,"text":"Thank you, Councelor Wson. Councelor Appleton."},{"t":8319,"text":"Thank you, worship, uh, and through you to the chief. Thank you, chief, for the report. And as you mentioned, it's uh, it's difficult to distill a bunch of technical information down into a"},{"t":8328,"text":"digestible package like this. So, I do appreciate it. It's a really good report."},{"t":8332,"text":"Um, I guess some of this has been covered, but I'm just I'm going to be a little bit obtuse because I just want to make sure that I understand sort of the nature of the problem and that sort of"},{"t":8340,"text":"thing. Um, essentially what I'm reading here is is that the single egress stair concept, it relies very much on the idea"},{"t":8348,"text":"of, uh, again, yeah, physically removing people and, you know, in general from what I can see here, supported by ladder trucks and going out the windows and"},{"t":8356,"text":"those types of things. And so what I am looking to confirm then is you know we obviously have mutual aid from other"},{"t":8363,"text":"departments in the area that can provide additional ladder trucks and those types of things. But what I'm seeing from what is described in the report is"},{"t":8370,"text":"irrespective of how we draw on mutual aid with respect to ladder support and and assistance for egress uh if you"},{"t":8378,"text":"can't use the stairway uh we can't achieve that with the current uh service agreement that we have with adjacent departments. Is that is that correct?"},{"t":8389,"text":"Through the mayor. Um, you know, we we we definitely can get to the point over um when I say over time, it's it's um it"},{"t":8398,"text":"means from point of dispatch until we've got all the appropriate units on scene, we can't ultimately get, you know, more than 20 firefighters on scene, but it's"},{"t":8406,"text":"not going to be within 8 minutes. It will take longer than that. So, right there, we're in the rapid intervention"},{"t":8412,"text":"team potential challenges. Um and"},{"t":8419,"text":"yeah, anyways, but um and then speaking to some of the other comments about other types of building stock, uh you"},{"t":8426,"text":"know, the the other types of of building designs don't have the same assumptions built into the BC building code um that traditional building uh standards have."},{"t":8440,"text":"Thank you, worship. I came up with an an I came up with a question that I probably should know the answer to while while this was being discussed, but um"},{"t":8448,"text":"we referenced fire escapes uh in in older buildings and that sort of thing."},{"t":8452,"text":"Does the building code currently provide for fire escapes as a secondary mode of egress or is that does that only retrofit for old buildings? Can you"},{"t":8460,"text":"design a new building with a fire escape on it?"},{"t":8465,"text":"Uh through the mayor. So, um, so if you're talking about an external fire escape, it it it is possible. And, you know, if you look at some buildings"},{"t":8473,"text":"downtown, uh, there are some relatively newer buildings um, you know, down near the waterfront area that do have some"},{"t":8481,"text":"exterior uh, you know, stairwells, uh, and and exterior access to the building all the way up to, you know, 8th or 10th floor"},{"t":8490,"text":"in some cases. So, it is possible, but it's unusual."},{"t":8498,"text":"Thank you, worship. Just just one final question. We've kind of covered this a little bit and it's I guess it's a bit of a moving target so it's a hard question to answer but um what I'm"},{"t":8507,"text":"hearing is uh that there is you know there's a reference made in the report in terms of you know rationale for"},{"t":8515,"text":"single eress stairs and basically talking about you know um the idea that you know modern fire protection systems such as fire alarms, sprinkler systems"},{"t":8524,"text":"and smoke alarms provide sufficient protection to remove a second exit stairway. And this is I I can understand where that comment comes from. But what"},{"t":8531,"text":"I'm hearing is is that I guess the techn technology is not sufficiently advanced"},{"t":8537,"text":"to essentially uh completely remove that uh that that concern essentially like the access is always going to be an"},{"t":8546,"text":"issue irrespective of what the mechanical provisions allowed in the building are. And I think you've spoken to this a little bit but just to elaborate on that."},{"t":8555,"text":"uh through the mayor. Um yeah, that is that is definitely uh a concern there is the reliability, the maintenance. Um and"},{"t":8564,"text":"then another significant factor uh which I don't think relates to this but hasn't been outlined has is um just the studies"},{"t":8572,"text":"on evacuation. You know, a lot of the studies that have gone on have have um assumed a relatively homogeneous um uh"},{"t":8581,"text":"evacuee clientele. you know, they're not necessarily looking at having a broad mix of um, you know, residents like we"},{"t":8589,"text":"have here in OK. And the challenges that we have to physically support the uh the evacuees for our community, those aren't"},{"t":8599,"text":"the type of things that are are are typically actually studied in a lot of the um uh the technical studies that have occurred so far."},{"t":8610,"text":"and that that those are uh studies that intend to be done in Canada uh prior to 2030."},{"t":8619,"text":"Thank you, Councelor Patterson."},{"t":8622,"text":"Yes. Thank you, Mayor, and thanks for the the report, Chief Donald. I um I"},{"t":8629,"text":"appreciate uh uh what you what you're attempting to convey because I certainly know that um if you're if you're"},{"t":8636,"text":"responsible for portfolios of a variety of sizes of buildings um the response from fire departments is directly"},{"t":8644,"text":"attributable to to the size and the occupancy of buildings and the nature of them. So, uh, you know, a five-story"},{"t":8653,"text":"building would would not warrant the same response from crews as as a 30story building in a hotel would be different"},{"t":8661,"text":"from those. So, I understand that. So h having read through everything that was presented and particularly the example"},{"t":8668,"text":"policy by the city of Vernon, I see that it does have uh in its policy which is"},{"t":8674,"text":"reviewed every two years that uh it it outlines suppression capacity and then just has the the um the clause in it"},{"t":8682,"text":"that current response level is not adequate to provide multi- company rapid rescue and suppression response that SCES requires. Um, am I then to"},{"t":8691,"text":"interpret this as that would be something that you would look be looking at um um incorporating in a in a"},{"t":8699,"text":"potential policy for for the district of Oak Bay?"},{"t":8702,"text":"Chief, that's for the mayor. Yes, that is exactly what we'd be looking to do. Very similar to that."},{"t":8713,"text":"Okay. This isn't an item for public input, so we're just going to have get some direction from council. I I I'm going to make a quick comment. um given"},{"t":8720,"text":"that we don't have that I mean I do think there's I mean there really two options here we just kind of leave it as is which sounds like it's it there's some concerns about that in terms of"},{"t":8728,"text":"impact on on development but functioning u or we can develop a policy which will be a little bit give that kind of granularity um chief I think one of the"},{"t":8737,"text":"things that what I'm hearing around this table is that you know I think from a viewpoint of fire suppression there is a there's a clear case to be made that"},{"t":8745,"text":"there is an elevated sense of risk here and from a fire from purely prior prevention standpoint that's not a risk worthy of taking on. I think what I'm hearing from around the table is that"},{"t":8754,"text":"there are societal benefits to having cheaper housing, more affordable housing, new housing forms, especially on small lots that might not be possible"},{"t":8762,"text":"when there's two stairs required, but might be feasible when there's just one."},{"t":8766,"text":"Um and so I think this is the hard part is is I guess maybe my broader question of this one is in the if the if the proposal for the motion goes forward um"},{"t":8775,"text":"how do we ensure that the sort of the consideration not just of the risk but of the opportunity um balanced against"},{"t":8782,"text":"that is sort of there's a there's a path there for building and planning to be able to to to balance those two in the consideration of that policy."},{"t":8794,"text":"uh you through or to the to the mayor."},{"t":8796,"text":"Um thanks for the question. Um I know uh m Mr. Bowl and I will uh you know need to talk a bit more along with I think"},{"t":8804,"text":"the rest of our our colleagues in the room on on uh some additional concepts on that. I I do know that the you know"},{"t":8811,"text":"the BC Fire Chiefs Association um you know all of the industry groups are still committed to working very closely uh with the province. Um and and"},{"t":8820,"text":"we are hoping uh that we are going to see some um uh changes through the national building code that that can"},{"t":8828,"text":"allow some changes um that can be a bit more flexible and supportable for all parties um you know in in the coming"},{"t":8836,"text":"years. you know, obviously there there's no guarantees. Um, and you know, we're also aware that, you know, the UBCM, uh,"},{"t":8844,"text":"you know, Burnaby had passed a motion, I think last year, and and, you know, I'm I'm not sure what the outcome of that"},{"t":8850,"text":"yet, um, or or what the opportunity, uh, is for for councils to, you know, lobby the uh, the province uh, that way"},{"t":8858,"text":"as well. But there there are some options there where, you know, hopefully there can be a little bit more uh, flexibility. And then ultimately, you"},{"t":8866,"text":"know, from a regional context, we are always trying to work closer with our regional partners. It's just tough with the way the assumptions are built with"},{"t":8874,"text":"the code, you know, putting the specific assumptions on the local um fire department and not building in the the"},{"t":8883,"text":"broader aspect. So, I mean it it it's great when we can rely on our mutual aid partners, but you know, they can only come if if they're available and, you"},{"t":8892,"text":"know, they're extremely, you know, busy um in their own right as well."},{"t":8897,"text":"Mr. Bullet, thank you, Mayor. And um from a planning perspective, I would add that there's a lot of other ways we can support u u"},{"t":8907,"text":"more affordable housing or lower construction cost. Uh there's things like uh considering waivers for ACC or DCC's if there's certain types of"},{"t":8915,"text":"housing, maybe supportive housing or other types of housing. Uh there is uh um prezoning is something that helps for"},{"t":8923,"text":"select areas to make it easier to come up with a project proposals and and there also um yeah other other can look"},{"t":8931,"text":"at other requirements that we normally have and we haven't quite worked on our affordable housing strategy just yet. We have focused on making other more"},{"t":8939,"text":"fundamental changes. Uh but it seems to me that there's other things we can do to support uh additional housing options"},{"t":8946,"text":"besides picking something that is clearly a a serious safety concern."},{"t":8950,"text":"Thanks, Counc."},{"t":8954,"text":"Yeah, I'm prepared to u make the motion um for the staff recommendation. I'm not sure if you want it read or if you just want it put forward."},{"t":8960,"text":"Staff recommendation is to develop a policy. I think it's fairly clear. Is there a second? Second. Exactly."},{"t":8966,"text":"And then um I I have to say, you know, I mean, especially after hearing what was just said, I don't think anybody's saying that SCES is unsafe and will"},{"t":8974,"text":"never be allowed. I think um what what we're hearing clearly from the chief is that Oak Bay can't safely support SCES"},{"t":8982,"text":"um development under its current fire service capacity. So, I'm in support of of um the request to have a policy um"},{"t":8989,"text":"that would prohibit or not support SCS development at this time. And but I think that again we have an open mind that at some point it might be allowed."},{"t":8998,"text":"And so let's let's and let's look for other ways as as um director B has said to make things make housing affordable"},{"t":9006,"text":"um if if we do have to have two sets of stairs. So I'm I'm in support of this and thank you for bringing it forward."},{"t":9012,"text":"Chief discussion councelor Smart."},{"t":9018,"text":"Yeah thank you. Um I won't be supporting the motion on the table. While I um really wanted to have clarity for the community on whether or not we would"},{"t":9026,"text":"allow this um if that clarity is going to be that we're absolutely going to say no for a couple years. I that's not the direction I would like to head. Um I was"},{"t":9036,"text":"really um disappointed that we have this reported in front of us and it says nothing about the advantages of single"},{"t":9043,"text":"stair design and it says nothing about the modern um design um abilities to um"},{"t":9050,"text":"deal with the safety aspects. It's not just about affordability. Single stair design is a completely different way of"},{"t":9057,"text":"designing a a building. The benefits include having a finer grain design so that you don't have a big massive block of an apartment building. Um, and that"},{"t":9066,"text":"that's having a beautiful streetscape like you see in Europe. Um, it's having um cross ventilation because typically in a single stair designed building, it"},{"t":9074,"text":"will be a smaller building. People will have windows on two or three sides because you'll have a single courtyard in the middle. It's it's about um so"},{"t":9083,"text":"increased daylighting, increased um air solution. It's about a building that is designed in a in a more community memor manner where you have more light touch"},{"t":9092,"text":"experiences because it's a smaller group of people around a stair. Um there are so many benefits to this um type I've"},{"t":9101,"text":"been to many many presentations on this topic. Um there are so many innovative safety approaches and redundancies that"},{"t":9109,"text":"have been designed that this council hasn't had the opportunity to see today."},{"t":9114,"text":"um from having um power actuators at every floor um should there actually be a fire in a stairwell, which is"},{"t":9121,"text":"extremely rare. Of course, the building can already be sprinkler, the building can already have um fire assemblies um that have a certain fire rating. Um so"},{"t":9130,"text":"it takes a while for the fire to get through the wall. Every wall can be fire stopped so the smoke can't spread."},{"t":9134,"text":"There's just so many um levels of of safety including even manual operation of of windows at every floor and a stairwell. there there's a lot of"},{"t":9142,"text":"innovative solutions and a lot of reasons why we don't have to completely say no to this or should at least be"},{"t":9148,"text":"saying no to this um uh because we very clearly don't have the capacity in in Oak Bay right now but with a more"},{"t":9155,"text":"educated opinion on what we're saying no to and I don't feel like this council has been presented with both the opportunities of what a single egress"},{"t":9164,"text":"stair design can provide us as well as all the different um design solutions that have already come to the table for"},{"t":9172,"text":"this. There's only a few places in the world that are this restrictive with double eager design. Canada, Uganda,"},{"t":9179,"text":"Pakistan, and a few parts of the United States. Everywhere else in the world allows this. So I I really think that we"},{"t":9186,"text":"don't have the information at the table um right now as a council to understand the benefits of this to understand the way buildings can be designed safely and"},{"t":9196,"text":"we haven't discussed the fact that you know Victoria and Vancouver are going ahead with this. Um but I do acknowledge um what the fire chief has said today"},{"t":9204,"text":"and I am now very concerned about our fire capacity not for these new single eager stair designs but for our existing"},{"t":9211,"text":"um housing stock that doesn't have all of these great modern um uh design achievements that have made our buildings so safe with multiple layers"},{"t":9220,"text":"of redundancy. So, I will not support um going ahead with a a policy when I don't feel like this council has received a"},{"t":9227,"text":"balanced amount of information towards making this a decision and I don't agree with closing off the the conversation before we have that information."},{"t":9236,"text":"Councelor Patterson."},{"t":9238,"text":"Thank you, Mayor. I I I do support the recommendation and while I understand uh"},{"t":9245,"text":"uh what councelor Smart is um saying I think there is a difference between fire"},{"t":9252,"text":"code and building code and um uh we do not control the design of buildings that"},{"t":9260,"text":"come before us and I don't think that we it's it's up to our council to come up"},{"t":9269,"text":"with um design models that might qualify. I think that would be an extensive body of work for for our"},{"t":9278,"text":"planning department to undertake with everything else they have on the plate."},{"t":9282,"text":"I'm not saying that it's not something that should be looked at, but I think um uh certainly there are other bodies that"},{"t":9290,"text":"are probably more equipped both with knowledge and finances to uh to tackle"},{"t":9297,"text":"that. And um I but I think right now it is a reality of of um fire service that"},{"t":9306,"text":"we have agreed upon staffing here in Oak Bay and the and how we service them and"},{"t":9313,"text":"uh and simply being able to convey that that is the situation. um and and that it will"},{"t":9322,"text":"it'll be reviewed as time goes forward, but this is really up to professional associations to advance even more so"},{"t":9330,"text":"than I believe than um municipal councils because the professional associations are the bodies with the expertise to provide that. Thank you."},{"t":9340,"text":"Thank you, Councelor Patterson. Go ahead. Councelor Appleton Green Watson."},{"t":9345,"text":"Thank you, worship. And it it uh it's this is not an easy one to deal with and and I really respect everything that"},{"t":9352,"text":"that the chief has put forward in his technical report that I was inclined to sort of uh be of the mind to support a"},{"t":9360,"text":"policy with the with the caveat that it um you know it specifically you it"},{"t":9366,"text":"specifically designate that uh we're not we're not removing this option in the"},{"t":9374,"text":"future. that essentially that that option is retained. I think at this stage however I won't support the motion on the floor just because I feel like"},{"t":9382,"text":"there is u room here for you know I I respect absolutely the safety and the"},{"t":9389,"text":"operational side of this equation but I feel similarly in a way to councelor Smart in that there I I don't feel we've"},{"t":9397,"text":"covered the ground as far as what an options analysis might look like or what options we might present. uh in"},{"t":9405,"text":"[clears throat] in response to the serious safety concerns that's been raised. I think that there's probably some work still to do there and we"},{"t":9413,"text":"haven't heard extensively from building and planning or from other agencies that might present options here. So I I don't"},{"t":9420,"text":"I don't uh disagree with any of the if safety related information put into the report, but I'm not sure that council has had a wholesome discussion about"},{"t":9428,"text":"options that might uh address some of those things in a safe manner. So I won't support the motion at this time. Your worship. Thank you."},{"t":9435,"text":"Thank you, Councelor Appleton. I have councelor Green and Watson."},{"t":9439,"text":"Thank you very much. First of all, I will support the motion. And secondly, I think that developing a policy is the kind of work that we're going to be"},{"t":9447,"text":"doing. That's the leg work. And that I I appreciate um both the chief and our director bringing forward the"},{"t":9456,"text":"information. And you can see it's a very conflicted issue and I think they did the best they could do to present it and now they're asking for a policy that"},{"t":9465,"text":"will be reviewed by annually and that's the model that other jurisdictions have so I think that's very consistent. I do"},{"t":9472,"text":"believe that uh they provided us with good information and remember I think the priorities for safety health and"},{"t":9480,"text":"safety are very different than the priorities for development. So it is a conflicted situation and we heard the"},{"t":9486,"text":"chief say how difficult it is. Uh you know the burden on um fire staff as well. Um fire staff are looking at a"},{"t":9496,"text":"very different issue. They're looking at life and death issues. Developers are looking at something entirely different."},{"t":9502,"text":"So I think we have been well informed u for what we uh for the context we have in Oak Bay and for the fact that we have"},{"t":9510,"text":"a small department. Um, and so I will support the motion and I'm grateful to both staff for their input."},{"t":9520,"text":"Thank you, Councelor Green, Councelor Watson."},{"t":9523,"text":"Yeah, thank you. I won't support the motion either. I would prefer that actually things remain the way they are in the OCP because it does provide the"},{"t":9532,"text":"possibility that a developer, an architect, a design team, a mechanical uh with mechanical engineering support"},{"t":9540,"text":"and other safety support could come in with a proposal that actually addresss the perceived risks and provides the benefits. And I I have I see going down"},{"t":9549,"text":"the path that's being proposed as actually putting a stop to to the opportunity for um uh innovation in in"},{"t":9558,"text":"housing and the use of a of a and the and the opportunity to build um housing"},{"t":9565,"text":"that uh as councelor um Smart has articulated is actually in so many ways superior to what the product that's on"},{"t":9573,"text":"the market right now. Um, and I I do I think that the the the risks are are probably being overestimated and the"},{"t":9581,"text":"benefits are being undervalued. And I think that's a that's that would be a very sad outcome. And so I actually prefer the status quo as opposed to"},{"t":9589,"text":"what's being proposed because it does still leave the door open for some reasonable discussions and people to demonstrate that they could bring a"},{"t":9596,"text":"product um into a community with a with a well functioning and wellunded fire department that actually provides a a"},{"t":9604,"text":"good housing solution. So I'm not in support of the strategy."},{"t":9610,"text":"Thank you for all those comments. I, you know, my I'm somewhat aligned with councelor Watson on on the on the"},{"t":9618,"text":"general principle that I do think that allowing for some room for innovation is really an important aspect of this. Um,"},{"t":9626,"text":"I am going to support the motion, however, and and I guess my my intreaty to staff as they're doing this is to look at the policy from the standpoint"},{"t":9635,"text":"of of understanding to councelor Smart's point, there is there is potential opportunity and advantage here with a a"},{"t":9642,"text":"a smart design team that can come up with some models, not for tall buildings, but perhaps for some low-rise approaches that might actually make"},{"t":9650,"text":"feasible some more sort of human scale buildings in the Oak Bay that that might fit very Well, and um I think that's a"},{"t":9657,"text":"goal that we we share and and would like to see. So, I'm comfortable with the policy going ahead, but I think it's important in that policy for it to"},{"t":9664,"text":"outline more than just the why we're not doing things, but perhaps perhaps the conditions or the or that would have to be met or um sort of the the some some"},{"t":9673,"text":"aspects of a decision should that policy change that is more than just the response capability, but perhaps some of the other aspects. So, we'll have a look"},{"t":9681,"text":"at what the policy if it just passes, we'll have a look at what that policy says. Um, but my I know this is a hard one because we tend to separate out the risk from the opportunities, but I think"},{"t":9690,"text":"if we're going to ask for this policy, I I would hope that it comes back with at least some of those criteria because I do think that there has to be room and"},{"t":9697,"text":"and the building industry is changing and and there may be some opportunities here for anticipating some, you know, I'm thinking of some twotory type buildings that could really be"},{"t":9705,"text":"innovative that might still be marketable but not viable with the two two exit piece but still supportable by by Safe Fire. So, I'm supportive of the"},{"t":9713,"text":"motion, but I I'm I am hopeful that the uh that the report coming back will consider more than just the risk, but we'll consider the opportunity uh here or what the conditions might be for those opportunities."},{"t":9725,"text":"I'm going to call the question. I think the other hands, all those in favor and those opposed, I have councelor Watson,"},{"t":9732,"text":"Appleton, and Smart opposed. That does carry. We look forward to seeing the report coming back to the table."},{"t":9739,"text":"Uh we move now to item nine, section nine. This is subject to public input."},{"t":9743,"text":"For those who have sat around in the reading waiting to have a chance to speak to council, I appreciate your patience. Um, we have uh uh a series of"},{"t":9751,"text":"first, second, and third readings of various pieces. This gets a little confusing in the fact that there are aspects of this which are open to public"},{"t":9759,"text":"input and aspects which are not. Um, that being said, it is a it is a cohesive hole. So, I'll try and be reasonably flexible in that. I think"},{"t":9767,"text":"what I'll do is we have the opportunity to do um readings and then um uh and we"},{"t":9774,"text":"can do make amendments. So procedurally here what I think I will do is uh in alignment with our standard practice council will ask questions. If there's any questions we'll have them answered."},{"t":9784,"text":"If there's once we through the questions, I'm going to suggest that we do um first and second reading uh and third reading of the bylaw because it's"},{"t":9793,"text":"not open for public input. It doesn't pass it, but it does uh sort of give us the direction that we're not having a public hearing. Then we will have public"},{"t":9800,"text":"input and we'll consider uh further resolutions or we can go back and make amendments to the uh to the zoning bylaw."},{"t":9808,"text":"Oh, sorry. I'm doing permissive taxes. I'm jumping ahead. My apologies."},{"t":9814,"text":"9.1 is for permit attack exemptions. So, um, Miss Lockhart, you're here. There has been just probably a little update."},{"t":9821,"text":"My apologies. Got ahead of myself. Go ahead, please."},{"t":9823,"text":"Yes. Uh, thank you, uh, through the mayor. I've got an update here. So, this report seeks council's approval of the 2027 permissive tax exemption bylaw,"},{"t":9831,"text":"which represents the final year of the current four-year exemption cycle, which runs 2024 through 2027. Since this report was prepared, BC assessment has"},{"t":9840,"text":"confirmed that the property at 825 Fay Road will receive a statutory property tax exemption for 2027. Since a"},{"t":9848,"text":"statutory exemption will be provided, council approved approval of a permissive tax exemption is no longer required for the Glen Lion Norfolk"},{"t":9856,"text":"School property and staff recommend that it be removed from the proposed bylaw."},{"t":9861,"text":"The only new exemption proposed for 2027 would therefore be the office spaces leased by the municipality at Athlon Court, which would provide tax treatment"},{"t":9870,"text":"consistent with other municipal owned facilities. Staff recommend that council following first and second reading of the bylaw provide an amendment to remove"},{"t":9878,"text":"Glen Lion Norfolk School Foundation from the bylaw schedule and then give third reading to the bylaw as amended and proceed with the required public"},{"t":9887,"text":"notification process prior to final adoption of the bylaw. and I'm happy to take any questions if you have any. very much miss lockard to just procedurally"},{"t":9896,"text":"here uh questions uh and then input from the public and then here given that change I think this"},{"t":9903,"text":"is a a very simple or much simpler sort of potential approach uh and for clarification of process uh if given that there's a statutory exemption um"},{"t":9912,"text":"the process would be option two which is basically we give first and second reading we would amend it to to exclude the the following road uh we would then"},{"t":9920,"text":"give uh third reading as as amended so that would be process to to make those changes, but we'll get to there after we get to the first part, which is"},{"t":9929,"text":"questions and public input. Miss Lockhart, did you wish to add anything to that? Uh, no, that's that's good. Thank you."},{"t":9936,"text":"Okay. Okay. Any questions for staff? Go ahead. Tell us briefly."},{"t":9942,"text":"Um, thanks very much um and through you, Mayor. Um I just um as far as the Athlone um court um"},{"t":9950,"text":"item goes, can you just confirm that the lease provisions um ensure that 100% of the property tax um savings are passed"},{"t":9958,"text":"through to the district for the full exemption period?"},{"t":9961,"text":"Uh yes, through the mayor. I uh I can confirm that uh the um uh value that's listed in the lease uh exemptions uh"},{"t":9970,"text":"will have the uh full amount of the property taxes removed from it. And I have David Graham here who can maybe add some more comment to that as well."},{"t":9978,"text":"Mr. Graham, uh through the mayor, yes, we have a clause in the lease agreements that specifically state that uh we would get 100% of the tax exemption."},{"t":9991,"text":"Don't see any other questions. Any other public is there any public input either online or in person that wishes to address us on the permissive tax exemptions?"},{"t":10003,"text":"seeing any. So back to this table. So because they're bylaws, I'm going to ask that people that so again going to option two, but give first and second reading to the tax exemption bylaw."},{"t":10013,"text":"Um I'll give first and sec second reading to the tax exemption provision permissive permissive bylaw number 49772026."},{"t":10022,"text":"Second."},{"t":10023,"text":"Seconded. Uh do I call the question before we do the amendments? Okay, I'm going to call the question on the motion. All those in favor? Any opposed?"},{"t":10031,"text":"And opposed? I'm going to seek to amend the schedule of tax exemption and I'll seek to amend the um schedule of tax exemption to remove um Glenn Lion nor folk."},{"t":10040,"text":"I'm gonna ask Can you read the language? I'm sorry. Is it in here? Under option two."},{"t":10047,"text":"I'll make it. I'll just do it. The council amend the schedule of tax exemption permissive by number 4977206 by removing the fowl bay partial."},{"t":10056,"text":"Yeah. Sufficient. Second."},{"t":10058,"text":"Movement. Second. So, councelor Braithweight in green but we don't record that but moved and seconded. Um, is that sufficient?"},{"t":10067,"text":"Okay. Uh, any discussion on that removal?"},{"t":10071,"text":"Seeing none, all those in favor? Any opposed? Not opposed."},{"t":10075,"text":"And then I'll move that council give uh third reading to the tax exemption permissive bylaw number 49772026 as amended."},{"t":10083,"text":"As amended."},{"t":10084,"text":"Thank you. Moved and seconded. Uh any other not usually discussed on third reading but I give a chance seeing none all those in favor? Any opposed? None"},{"t":10091,"text":"opposed. Thank you. Uh we now move to 9.2 which is the homebased business regulation. That was starting my preamble. My apologies but I've already"},{"t":10100,"text":"said it once. I'm not going to say it again. Um but I'll allow for the introduction uh here. Go ahead Mr. Brown."},{"t":10108,"text":"Thank you your worship. Uh so yeah, so we're here today and tonight to present the amendment bylaws for for"},{"t":10116,"text":"consideration of first three readings um that will update the homebased business regulations according to the direction provided by council on July 20th."},{"t":10126,"text":"Uh there are five bylaws to be amended."},{"t":10129,"text":"First is the zoning amendment bylaw 4978."},{"t":10133,"text":"Uh and this contains the bulk of the the updates and it includes replacing section 4.2.8"},{"t":10142,"text":"um and adding a new schedule G which contains the homebased business regulation and organizing it this way"},{"t":10149,"text":"allows all the regulations to live in one place. They're they're not they're not scattered uh through throughout the"},{"t":10155,"text":"bylaw. Um the amendments also updates definitions and the specific zones uh to"},{"t":10163,"text":"implement the new regulations. Um and just for reminder again, yeah, the the public hearing has been waved. Um and"},{"t":10171,"text":"therefore newspaper advertising as has occurred in the last two weeks."},{"t":10177,"text":"Um the four other amendment bylaws um uh"},{"t":10183,"text":"take care of items um right related uh including the the business license"},{"t":10190,"text":"amendment bylaw uh 4979 which also requires uh public notice for adoption"},{"t":10197,"text":"and so th those uh newspaper ads are scheduled to to occur in the coming weeks. uh the the remaining three the"},{"t":10205,"text":"municipal ticketing by bylaw, parking facilities bylaw and sign bylaw all all to be updated according according to the regulations."},{"t":10215,"text":"Uh and then one final recommendation is to um to schedule a report back to"},{"t":10222,"text":"review the program in two in about two years time. So we're recommending in the second quarter of 2029 which allows for"},{"t":10231,"text":"two full years of business license data to be reviewed."},{"t":10237,"text":"Thank you very much Mr. Brown. Uh this is [snorts] available as noted not the bylaws themselves but the uh the balance of this to be uh public input although"},{"t":10245,"text":"they all tie together. So I'm sure any comments will probably tie to the whole not individual pieces. Before we get to the public though there's an opportunity for council to ask questions of staff."},{"t":10254,"text":"Does council have questions? Let's go ahead. Councelor Watson."},{"t":10257,"text":"Yes. Thank you, Mayor. Uh, yes, for staff, please. Um, for Mr. Brown, we had one piece of correspondence which I expect you will have seen, too. And I"},{"t":10265,"text":"just wanted to clarify there were some concerns raised by the Oak Bay Flower Shop around definitions and what agricultural um, urban agriculture"},{"t":10273,"text":"really permitted in terms of its um, you know, place in the homebased business regime. And I guess my reading of the bylaw as it's drafted is that they"},{"t":10282,"text":"really don't have anything to be concerned about because of the provisions in section six and section 7."},{"t":10288,"text":"But I just wanted if you could clarify they seem to be concerned that um somebody could come in and start operating basically a business similar"},{"t":10297,"text":"to their own uh out of a private residence. But I I um be by bringing in flowers from other places and selling"},{"t":10305,"text":"them. But I I see from my reading of the bylaw that's would not be permitted because the produce has to be the items have to be produced on site in an agric"},{"t":10314,"text":"in a in the urban agricultural regulations. Is that how you see it too?"},{"t":10320,"text":"Thank you for the question and through the mayor. Yeah, that's correct. That the limits for urban agriculture is the produce has to be produced on site um no external uh sources."},{"t":10333,"text":"Great. Thank you. That was my only question. Thank you. I have councelor green and then smart and briefly."},{"t":10339,"text":"Thank you through you two staff. I just wanted to ask you about your enforcement capacity. So this requires regulation"},{"t":10348,"text":"and enforcement and and really being on top of what might be happening in neighborhoods and with small businesses."},{"t":10354,"text":"Do you have any concerns or or what kind of burden will this place on staffing for enforcement? Thank you."},{"t":10362,"text":"Do I give it to Mr. B or do you want to take that? Go ahead, Mr. Brown."},{"t":10366,"text":"Yes, thank you for thank you for the question. Um, so in in our background when we're preparing the bylaws, we did"},{"t":10374,"text":"uh consult with our our bylaw team to to understand what what the current burden is for for homebased businesses. Really"},{"t":10382,"text":"there's really only two or three complaints received per year. Most most of the files open are uh b due to"},{"t":10391,"text":"license fees. Um and while that there there's anticipated to be some increase"},{"t":10398,"text":"uh with more opportunities for homebased businesses um what is proposed with the with the"},{"t":10406,"text":"amendments put forward is to have um it's kind of a a smart regulation. So"},{"t":10413,"text":"it's relies on more on declaration and uh and the applicants to comply with the bylaws. um and then operates on a"},{"t":10422,"text":"complaint basis from there. So yeah, I I would expect some increase but"},{"t":10429,"text":"at the same time more businesses that may be out there now operating without a licenses may be come into a compliance."},{"t":10438,"text":"So there there's two ways to look at that. Okay. Thank you."},{"t":10445,"text":"Thank you very much. I have on my list uh councelor Smart Braithweight Patterson."},{"t":10451,"text":"Thank you. Um through Mayor and Mr."},{"t":10455,"text":"Brown, I my question was just with regards to the urban agriculture fee potentially seeming a bit high. Like I was looking at that category imagining"},{"t":10463,"text":"that's maybe somebody that has like a little bit of a farm stand to sell extra flowers, extra zucchinis or sourdough bread or something and that could be"},{"t":10470,"text":"their whole profit for the entire summer to pay $150. But can you just clarify if I'm understanding that urban agriculture"},{"t":10478,"text":"might be something like selling flowers out of your garden um and why the fee was on the higher end"},{"t":10486,"text":"for that one? Thank you, Mr. Brown."},{"t":10495,"text":"Yes, thank you for the question. Um my understanding is so the fee structure as"},{"t":10501,"text":"it is all all all went up by about $50 across the board and so that's how we how we arrived at that number. Um"},{"t":10511,"text":"yeah I I believe previously urban agriculture was was a $100 um fee."},{"t":10519,"text":"Thank you. Um through you may Mr. Brown."},{"t":10522,"text":"Um, are there res are there residents in in Oak Bay that had actually claimed to have urban agriculture under that"},{"t":10530,"text":"category? I just wonder if that amount like um encourages people to to comply."},{"t":10540,"text":"Yeah. To to my knowledge, I'm not sure. I I'm not aware of any, but uh yeah,"},{"t":10548,"text":"I'm aware of one official farm that no is no longer a farm in in Oak Bay in recent years. So, uh they certainly wouldn't have any problem paying the"},{"t":10556,"text":"$100 $100 fee with that, but it was a pretty one-off case. Go ahead, Councelor Smart."},{"t":10561,"text":"Yeah, thank you. Um, my other question was just with regards to the comment in the report about how the APC's feedback further increased the severity of"},{"t":10570,"text":"non-resident regulations. And I just wondered if if you could comment on that and potentially how anything of the APC's comments um perhaps changed what"},{"t":10578,"text":"we saw last time. It just wasn't wasn't clear to me um from the sort of bullet points exactly um what happened there."},{"t":10586,"text":"Thank you, Mr. Brown."},{"t":10594,"text":"Yeah, probably just to clarify. So, how the the different bullet points were"},{"t":10601,"text":"incorporated or how they were they cons considered was that the question?"},{"t":10608,"text":"Yes, thank you. Um, on page five of the report, it just says the input from the APC has been considered in the proposed revisions to further restrict"},{"t":10616,"text":"non-resident employees. um if you could just comment specifically on on whether there was a change there and what it was. Thank you."},{"t":10623,"text":"Oh yes. Uh so we met with AP APC back in May. So that was uh during the last"},{"t":10631,"text":"round of engagement and and before the last right so since then uh the non-resident employees have have been"},{"t":10639,"text":"reduced to one one per per business. Um yeah and then the the the other points"},{"t":10646,"text":"were were incorporated in the report that was presented in July as well."},{"t":10655,"text":"Good."},{"t":10656,"text":"I then move to councelor Braithweight then Patterson."},{"t":10659,"text":"Thanks very much Mayor through you. Um yeah, I was when I was reading the report, there was one little red flag that came up to me and and that was in"},{"t":10667,"text":"regards to the um the increase uh for the the base fee for a regular business,"},{"t":10674,"text":"which is now $50 to $100 and and so we're going to double it to $100. Um and in the report it says um a more"},{"t":10682,"text":"wholesome business license bylaw overhaul is also needed, but is planned to be dealt with separately in the future. So, in other words, we're"},{"t":10689,"text":"changing the fee for regular businesses now, but we're acknowledging that the broader um business license bylaws still um still needs an overhaul. So, I'm"},{"t":10698,"text":"wondering um why we're being asked to increase the regular business license um as part of the homebased business project when we've actually acknowledged"},{"t":10707,"text":"that a comprehensive review of the business license bylaw is still required because it would seem to me that we would want to wait until after we do the overhaul of the business license bylaw."},{"t":10719,"text":"Sure, Mr. Looks like someone they're fighting over microphones. Mr. Bull, go ahead."},{"t":10724,"text":"Yeah, thank you. um uh through the mayor, we're definitely focusing on the homebased businesses here and and trying to come up with an a revised framework"},{"t":10732,"text":"that's in relation to each other. Um I believe earlier in the process we looked at other communities and fees there. So that has informed the proposed uh rates."},{"t":10744,"text":"Um so um yeah, let me see. So type one is really the current uh homebased business option. So yes, it's indeed a"},{"t":10753,"text":"change there from $50 to $100. Um, we we did build in a new option for smaller businesses that are not year round have"},{"t":10761,"text":"a retained of 50 or perhaps 25 is just a daily business, but the daily business was already there. Um, it's a bit of um"},{"t":10769,"text":"yeah, we think this is already the the future amounts. Um, but yeah, as as the councelor mentioned, we are reviewing"},{"t":10777,"text":"the bylaw later as well. So if council prefer to leave the fees for a later date then we probably need to look at everything a little bit and and adjust"},{"t":10786,"text":"the whole um spectrum I think to to make it more in line with the current fees if that's per council's desire. Thanks me."},{"t":10794,"text":"Um yeah I just think that I I just wonder whether we we'd actually consulted with the um the broader business community specifically around the the doubling of their of their fee."},{"t":10804,"text":"Um uh and so I would be interested in perhaps removing that piece for now until we do do a bis a broader business license bylaw, but that will come up"},{"t":10812,"text":"later, I'm sure. Um then my next question would be um I'm wondering if we can have a one-year implementation report rather than waiting until quarter"},{"t":10820,"text":"2 of 2029 because I think it would be interesting to find out what the effect is um and and how this is actually going"},{"t":10828,"text":"um for the homebased businesses. So, I would actually like to see something sooner, [clears throat] excuse me, than than quarter 2 of 2029."},{"t":10836,"text":"And I'm wondering if that's uh a possibility or if that would just be a direction from council, I guess."},{"t":10842,"text":"I'll turn to a question to Mr. Brown just the rationale for the the time frame. Yeah. Yes. Thank you for the question."},{"t":10850,"text":"Um really really the one year of data if if it's if council chooses to to to"},{"t":10858,"text":"have a report back after one year uh I don't see too much of issue with that."},{"t":10863,"text":"Just when you're just doing one one cycle sometimes it takes a little while for for things to to filter out. So that's the the logic for the two years."},{"t":10875,"text":"Thank you. Thank you. And then just going on the enforcement. Um I I think it was your question, Council Green, on enforcement. Um do we did and I'm I'm"},{"t":10883,"text":"sorry. Did you say that we would need um u additional resources and would those co are those costs included um in the"},{"t":10891,"text":"financial analysis that we did for homebased businesses? Mr. Brown."},{"t":10899,"text":"Yes, thank you for the question. Um yeah, at this this time we believe that we can um cover any additional"},{"t":10907,"text":"enforcement or licensing with the team that we have. Um thank you. And then uh councelor Patterson."},{"t":10917,"text":"Yes. Thank you. Thank you, Mayor, and thank you to staff for the report. Um the the APC of course were their prime"},{"t":10926,"text":"concerns were around um the number of businesses that may might occur on every street and uh and certainly um uh"},{"t":10936,"text":"regulation and enforcement that were they saw the most serious. um they were not supportive of a complaint driven"},{"t":10944,"text":"model as we are proposing and um but to that end if our methodology is is to to"},{"t":10953,"text":"still rely on on the kind of two complaints model um and realizing there"},{"t":10960,"text":"could be several units on a street in this report. It does in a number of areas uh require that they that the"},{"t":10967,"text":"homebased business not create excessive traffic. We don't define what excessive traffic is. And if the the enforcement"},{"t":10976,"text":"is to be driven by a complaint-based model,"},{"t":10982,"text":"how how will they know if what they are complaining about is excessive or not? Because the the"},{"t":10990,"text":"feedback that I'm getting from many people is you know, even when it's a complaintbased model of something and"},{"t":10997,"text":"they bring it forward, the response is that it doesn't quite qualify as as that. So when we to just"},{"t":11006,"text":"put not create excessive traffic seems to not really give enough guidance as to what the enforcement will be."},{"t":11016,"text":"That's more of a comment than a question, but I'll just turn to a question. What was the rationale for how did we end up at that? Thank you. Um so,"},{"t":11023,"text":"so the the the conditions that yeast at least list that's at top of schedule G"},{"t":11030,"text":"uh th those are are maintained from the current by the way the way it is. Um that the way that we would approach"},{"t":11038,"text":"something where somebody was u submits a complaint about excessive traffic."},{"t":11044,"text":"That's where we would go to the other bylaws and and and follow up with with the business. Maybe they have too many"},{"t":11053,"text":"uh non-resident employees or maybe there's too many um uh customers, maybe there's too many"},{"t":11060,"text":"cars that are are against what those regulations are. So So really that that's the way in to start an an"},{"t":11067,"text":"enforcement file and then we can address the issue with with the uh business license."},{"t":11074,"text":"um according to the other uh regulations in the bylaw. Dr. Patterson."},{"t":11083,"text":"Yeah, thank you mayor. And just to clarify, my question was to define what is excessive traffic because if if it's"},{"t":11091,"text":"going to be complaint driven, do they say there are this many vehicle, you know, like"},{"t":11099,"text":"I have quite a few vehicles circing all the time simply because of deliveries, but but um to just say"},{"t":11106,"text":"excessive traffic and not define it in some way seems to be um uh lacking in"},{"t":11113,"text":"specific specificity to to actually enforcing this."},{"t":11121,"text":"Thank you, mayor. Um I think one of the challenges uh having a fair definition for for something like that for excessive traffic is"},{"t":11129,"text":"[snorts]"},{"t":11129,"text":"um we have three types of homebased businesses. Uh we also have very wide range of uh neighborhood conditions."},{"t":11137,"text":"Sometimes business is on a quiet street, sometimes on a busier street. The types of business will vary. So um I think"},{"t":11144,"text":"what Mr. Brown is also to explain context is also important here. So uh if we were to uh put more words to it, it"},{"t":11152,"text":"probably will in my view remain quite qualitative because it depends on the context so much before to determine if"},{"t":11160,"text":"it's a if it's if it's fair to deem it a nuisance or not. And and I think a single measurement would kind of oversimplify things. I would be"},{"t":11168,"text":"concerned that in some cases that whatever the quantitative measure would be is reasonable for businesses but in other in the case of other businesses on"},{"t":11176,"text":"other locations perhaps not so much. So that's kind of the thinking behind that more general approach to uh uh yeah"},{"t":11185,"text":"don't don't have too complex regulations but still have the uh ability to uh weigh uh individual situations properly"},{"t":11192,"text":"and and also take take action through with the business directly to see what the issue is and how it could be addressed with them. Thanks."},{"t":11201,"text":"Thank you Mr."},{"t":11202,"text":"Um before I go to second time questions just just for my clarification my it's been a while since we've gone through the minutia of this uh back to here and"},{"t":11211,"text":"my recollection of this intent as we sort of went through this over iteratively was I mean at the end of the day people applying for business license"},{"t":11220,"text":"will declare what kind of business they are uh understand sign off on their obligations and then when the fees are"},{"t":11229,"text":"kept at a reasonably low rate but there's a fairly There is a fine system here where if they don't if they're in the wrong schedule or they're they're misbehaving,"},{"t":11237,"text":"then there's a fine model. So, we are somewhat trusting when people get their business license that they're essentially they're they're the ones declaring it and they're held to account"},{"t":11245,"text":"for that. Is that is that fairly accurate in terms of our approach to this? Exactly. Yeah. Okay."},{"t":11254,"text":"Thank you. Go ahead, Councelor SM."},{"t":11256,"text":"Actually, before I go to you, Councelor Smart, my apologies. I'm just going to ask we have a motion to extend the meeting by 20 minutes just so we have time for public input and to come back to this table. Moved seconded. All those"},{"t":11264,"text":"in favor? Any opposed? None opposed. Go ahead. Councelor Spark."},{"t":11268,"text":"Yeah, thank you. Um just one more question on the urban agriculture fee."},{"t":11273,"text":"Um just noting that a lot of other municipalities have reduced um business license fees for urban agriculture to encourage um urban agriculture in their"},{"t":11282,"text":"communities. Um the city of Victoria has like a threemonth um permit that's $25 for instance for the likely months"},{"t":11289,"text":"you're you're going to to use that. Um city of Vancouver they have a $10 fee for small urban agricultural operations"},{"t":11296,"text":"again to um really encourage uh this activity happening in the the community."},{"t":11301,"text":"And I wondered if if we wanted to introduce um something like that um uh tonight uh where we looked at um"},{"t":11310,"text":"potentially a a more reduced fee to encourage uh um urban farming um in our community. Um uh I just wondered is that"},{"t":11318,"text":"something that's easy for staff to do that it would simply be potentially um an amendment to change something on the fee schedule or is it something that"},{"t":11327,"text":"would be more complex for staff? Thank you."},{"t":11334,"text":"Thank you uh mayor through you. Um yeah, if council would want to make changes to the fees uh would be through a motion to"},{"t":11341,"text":"amend that bylaw and then the bylaw can be read as amended as long as that change is very specific that could be done through a motion and then we'll"},{"t":11349,"text":"amend the bylaw accordingly when it comes back at the next meeting. Thanks."},{"t":11356,"text":"Thank you."},{"t":11359,"text":"If I have wanted to sort of Oh, Miss Lockhart."},{"t":11363,"text":"Yes. Uh, thank you to the mayor. I just wanted to make one comment. So, when these fees went forward, um, in the report, I did a, uh, a basic review in"},{"t":11371,"text":"terms of the, uh, the staff time and, you know, generally speaking, what it took to uh, you know, arrive at these"},{"t":11380,"text":"fees. And I can confirm that we are actually under recovering in terms of all of the fees across the board. And I"},{"t":11387,"text":"can also appreciate the comment in terms of maybe like a more wholesome review being done, but just wanted to flag that that uh what is being presented in the"},{"t":11395,"text":"bylaw is is probably well not probably it is uh not fully recovering the cost of the current staff time involved."},{"t":11404,"text":"Thank you. Can I ask just one other clarifying question on that because I I hear the point being made by councelor Smart. There is a special events uh"},{"t":11411,"text":"seasonal uh thing. So if people want to just do it for part of the year, it's $50. Would urban agriculture qualify for"},{"t":11418,"text":"that if they say wanted to run flowers for three months of the year while they were doing that or would it be entirely dependent upon Mr. Brown?"},{"t":11433,"text":"[clears throat]"},{"t":11435,"text":"Yes, thank you. Um yeah, the the intent of the seasonal license though the the"},{"t":11442,"text":"the the amendment here is yeah it's intended for someone who operates periodically or intermittently"},{"t":11450,"text":"through the year. Um the difference between that and a homebased business is the ability to sell it from the from the"},{"t":11458,"text":"the home property. Um whereas the seasonal license it's really intended per perhaps there's a vendor that comes"},{"t":11466,"text":"to the night markets and a few the other events in the year but that's it. Uh similar uh I think the examples in the"},{"t":11474,"text":"report of recreational instructors that's clear for the difference. Thank you for that."},{"t":11479,"text":"Okay. Um I don't have to see any other questions from this table."},{"t":11483,"text":"Oh go ahead brief go to the public just everybody knows if public input at this point is going to be to come forward."},{"t":11489,"text":"So, just a really quick question on um the when staff thinks that they will do a a"},{"t":11496,"text":"broader business license um bylaw overhaul. Mr. B."},{"t":11502,"text":"Yeah, thank you for the mayor. Uh we're hoping that is one of the updates we could work on next year 2027. Um but it"},{"t":11510,"text":"depends what other work might come forward and there's a couple of competing smaller projects like this that that also needs to be done. Thanks. Thanks."},{"t":11517,"text":"Thank you very much. Miss Anderson."},{"t":11522,"text":"Thank you through you, Mayor. Um, just providing some clarity on procedure. The first bylaw for consideration is a zoning bylaw, which isn't subject to public input."},{"t":11531,"text":"Okay. So, this is a bit awkward. I I'm still I think where we are. I'm going to ask for people not to make comments"},{"t":11539,"text":"specifically on the zoning bylaw. Keep comments either to to the specifics of the other ticketing information, parking, etc. bylaws or to the general"},{"t":11547,"text":"intentions of the bylaw that we're trying to achieve. So, I'm going to invite public comment but not have it on the zoning bylaw itself."},{"t":11555,"text":"So, because I think what I've heard is that there might be some some amendments made to and then we have votes on that and pieces, but they might be contingent"},{"t":11563,"text":"upon desired outcomes and and penalties and so forth which are co-ontingent. So I think just"},{"t":11571,"text":"given that I think I'm going to allow public input. Just ask that you don't speak to any of the specifics of the uh of the homebased business aspects because that is excluded from public"},{"t":11579,"text":"input. It's a bit odd and awkward but uh is there any first I should ask the question. Is there any members of the public who wish to come and speak to us about the u about the homebased business regulations?"},{"t":11590,"text":"I'm going to assume there is there people please come forward."},{"t":11599,"text":"It's hard to stand up after that much sitting bird but [laughter] so if you could uh if you could uh just follow the same process we had the very remember many many hours ago where this meeting started."},{"t":11608,"text":"I remember okay nean municipality of residents."},{"t":11611,"text":"My name is Bert Hill. I'm a resident and business owner inside Oak Bay Municipality. Y welcome."},{"t":11618,"text":"Thank you. Um I'm not very good at this stuff so you'll have to uh stumble through with me. Thank you, mayor, council, and municipal employees."},{"t":11626,"text":"Appreciate all the work that you put in."},{"t":11628,"text":"Um uh there's like these things are kind of on the periphery of this situation where because I'm a member of the Oak"},{"t":11636,"text":"Bay Village that I think that there's not enough um consideration for how this would affect the villages and that I've"},{"t":11644,"text":"talked with other business owners about it and like there should be an option or some version of it where there's a consideration of catchment of the"},{"t":11652,"text":"existing villages to protect the businesses that are already existing in place so that homebased businesses"},{"t":11659,"text":"wouldn't erode those business villages or areas. Um, which I did bring up to uh"},{"t":11667,"text":"the um the last uh session in which you asked for input from the local businesses and uh I just think it's"},{"t":11675,"text":"something that was important enough for me to come and tell you about it today."},{"t":11679,"text":"Um, uh, yeah, and I just, yeah, I think it's just such an important issue that was not in all of the things, which means I think it's allowed to be talked about."},{"t":11688,"text":"Um, and I just think it's, uh, something that's really important to me considering I live on the edge of the or I work on the edge of the village. I live on the edge of the village and I"},{"t":11696,"text":"live right next to residential in which some neighbors sit on the council. And so I hear about it from them and I see the things that are going on and I am"},{"t":11705,"text":"concerned about it because I don't want it to affect any other business like it might affect mine and that's that's basically it. It's not a question. It's more of a statement."},{"t":11715,"text":"You're welcome. Comments. Thank you."},{"t":11716,"text":"Questions. All good. Thank you very much. Mr. Hill members of the public and we'll take comments online as well. Does anybody here wish to speak to council?"},{"t":11728,"text":"Okay."},{"t":11730,"text":"We're going to come back to this table then and have the opportunity for direction. I'm going to ask that we do uh the first section first. So, um we're going to give first and second reading."},{"t":11742,"text":"Then if there's we'll procedurally, Ms."},{"t":11745,"text":"Anderson, I just want to make sure I'm I'm doing this right with the passing of a bylaw. We would read the bylaws into the record first and second reading. We"},{"t":11753,"text":"would vote on that. We would then if there's any amendments, we would then make vote on amendments. they may or pass or not. At the end of that, if there's any amendments, we would vote"},{"t":11761,"text":"either as is or as amended for third reading. Correct. Okay. Just making sure I get it procedurally right. Uh so if I'm going to ask that someone read into"},{"t":11769,"text":"the record that the first and second reading of the zoning bylaw, go ahead and do that, your worship. So I would move that council give first and second"},{"t":11777,"text":"reading to zoning bylaw number 3531 1986, homebased businesses amendment bylaw number 4978206."},{"t":11787,"text":"Is there a second here?"},{"t":11792,"text":"Oh, seconded. Okay, thank you. Uh, so for discussion and as I said, if there's any uh desired amendments, this would be the time to make them. And there was a"},{"t":11801,"text":"couple of Yeah, there comments made around this. Go ahead, councelor Smart."},{"t":11806,"text":"So, just to clarify, this would be the time to make an amendment with regards to the fee schedule."},{"t":11811,"text":"Yes, it just has to be specific. So,"},{"t":11814,"text":"[snorts]"},{"t":11816,"text":"Yeah, that's bylaw before you is the zoning bylaw. I believe the fee schedule. Okay, my apologies."},{"t":11826,"text":"So on the zoning bylaw itself, I'm going to just ask a question uh and probably should maybe not it's"},{"t":11833,"text":"appropriate now. Um the point raised about uh exclusion zones or or catchment zones uh as piece of that. Um I am"},{"t":11843,"text":"curious about where I'm not sure that I'm I'm probably comfortable with us trying this and seeing if that's going to be an issue. But I am curious but"},{"t":11851,"text":"where would that change happen? Would that be something that would happen in the zoning or in the business bylaw? I'm not I'm not clear about where such a"},{"t":11859,"text":"restriction would actually even go to either one of you, Mr. Brown or Mr. Bull."},{"t":11867,"text":"Mr. Bull."},{"t":11868,"text":"Yeah, I think you may through you uh or to you in response to your question. Um that was something that would be need to be something to think through because it"},{"t":11876,"text":"means that certain areas would need to be defined and then also we needs to be figured out well what does happen in those transition zones or are certain"},{"t":11884,"text":"businesses not allowed in a certain proximity. So that would require some more work. I I would think that probably"},{"t":11891,"text":"belongs in the zoning ball because it has to do with use and what kind of businesses are allowed where. So I I would guess that we would place that in"},{"t":11899,"text":"the zoning ballot if that's where we needed to go. Thanks."},{"t":11903,"text":"Okay. Thank you. I I might suggest if that's something that people are interested in keeping an eye on that it could be a motion arising to uh in the"},{"t":11911,"text":"report that comes back to council to have a have that specifically included in that report to see if there's some consideration of that because I think it"},{"t":11918,"text":"it it is a legitimate concern being raised but may not be worth changing everything at this point to accommodate but I'll leave that to the body of of council. Right now we have first and"},{"t":11926,"text":"second reading as is for the zoning amendment bylaw. Any other discussion before I call the question?"},{"t":11934,"text":"All those in favor? Any opposed? Councelor. Sorry, resident opposed."},{"t":11942,"text":"Okay. So, councelor Green opposed that carries. Then we move to Can read third reading."},{"t":11947,"text":"Uh motion would move that council give third reading to zoning by law number 3531 1986 homebased businesses amendment bylaw number 4978 2026."},{"t":11956,"text":"Thank you. Move and seconded. Uh there's a debate on third reading after having a second reading. All those in favor? Oh, councelor Patterson, you wish to speak?"},{"t":11965,"text":"Yeah, clarification about exclusionary zoning and when it would come in because proximity to the village is really"},{"t":11972,"text":"important, but you know, if I looked at I only got them from the provincial schedule 702, but our residential tax"},{"t":11981,"text":"rates are 548 and our business ones are 1678. So there's every"},{"t":11988,"text":"There's a rationale, especially if a residence is close to one of the villages, to operate in the home instead of in the"},{"t":11997,"text":"village. And yet our villages are really important to the quality of life in the"},{"t":12004,"text":"community of Oak Bay and certainly the uh BIA um contributes significantly to"},{"t":12012,"text":"all of the events that take place. So, um I think the I I think a good point was raised and that there needs to be"},{"t":12021,"text":"some sort of a protection zone. So, where can we is that now that we put it in?"},{"t":12028,"text":"So, because amendments to bylaws have to be very specific, we couldn't make an amendment to the bylaw. We would at this point refer it back to staff for that work"},{"t":12036,"text":"or uh pass the bylaws and ask the staff do some additional work to bring back options for for that kind of exclusion."},{"t":12044,"text":"It'd be it'd be a fair bit of work. That would not be a simple do it because they would have to do some assessment of what kind of businesses would be because some"},{"t":12051,"text":"are not going to be competing in some light and so um those would be the two options. One would be to refer it back"},{"t":12058,"text":"uh to staff to do that work or to pass this into a motion arising and ask staff to bring back a report on including that"},{"t":12065,"text":"at a at a future amendment piece. Those be those would be the two options I can see as a procedural."},{"t":12071,"text":"Thank you, Councelor Green. I'm going to explain my my um voting against this and and on the"},{"t":12079,"text":"first reading. The reason I'm voting against it is because I voted for more public input and and you know the"},{"t":12086,"text":"council majority waved that. Um I still think we haven't heard enough from our business community and I'm very concerned about our local economies in"},{"t":12094,"text":"each of the village centers of which there are four and they all border residential areas. So, you know, I"},{"t":12102,"text":"really think we haven't done the deep dive on this issue. And I think um there I I don't think there was a heavy turnout at the business um consultation that was done um of of business owners."},{"t":12114,"text":"And so I I just feel that we need to do more homework on this um and and that's why I'm voting against it. Thank you."},{"t":12123,"text":"Thank you. Thank you for that clarification, Council Green. Go ahead, Council Braithweight."},{"t":12128,"text":"Oh, thanks. Yeah, I mean this is really really tough because you know taking into consideration um the comments about"},{"t":12136,"text":"um about businesses around the village areas um it it does really have an effect on them and and and knowing what the tax difference is. I mean that has"},{"t":12145,"text":"kind of changed my mind right here that I I I I want to support home businesses but I don't I also want to support the businesses that are in place right now."},{"t":12152,"text":"So I think Council Green's probably right. we maybe need need to take another look at at that or or at least"},{"t":12159,"text":"have the ability to have that exclusion area in around the villages um that we have. So um yeah, I think I'm probably"},{"t":12167,"text":"going to I'm going to vote against the third reading. So yeah."},{"t":12174,"text":"Okay. Go ahead. Councelor Watson, I will support uh taking this forward at the moment. I think that making policy"},{"t":12181,"text":"on the fly even right now and speculating about how people would behave is is probably not a good idea. I"},{"t":12188,"text":"think that um when the development of this bylaw went forward was there was lots of uh compare and contrast to other"},{"t":12196,"text":"jurisdictions and I also think that we are a very small community. So proximity to these village areas with respect to what's going on in people's homes"},{"t":12205,"text":"proximity I mean I live a kilometer away from the village. Is that too close? Is that too far? I I I don't I think that that construct would need to be really"},{"t":12214,"text":"carefully looked at and to jump to a conclusion that just because a home is near the the the village if it has a homebased business, it's going to"},{"t":12223,"text":"somehow interfere with a thriving village economy as opposed to somebody who's running a massage therapy clinic a"},{"t":12231,"text":"a kilometer away. So I I I just, you know, hate the idea of make stopping"},{"t":12239,"text":"something that's been well thought through and developed just on the fly. I I I appreciate the business owner coming"},{"t":12246,"text":"to speak to us this evening and I and I do know that we want to have thriving village centers, but there's lots of other ingredients that go into that. And"},{"t":12255,"text":"we have um certainly we have people in the community who've been waiting for four years in order for this these small changes to go forward. And I think it"},{"t":12265,"text":"would be really shortsighted just to sort of stop the whole project um because because of a concern that hasn't been raised up until now. So, um it's"},{"t":12274,"text":"not to say that it shouldn't be addressed, but I I just think that um this notion that because somebody's doing something somewhere in the"},{"t":12282,"text":"community or closer to a village center that it's it will affect those businesses. I think that would need a very deep dive examination because I"},{"t":12291,"text":"think that's jumping very quickly to a conclusion about how actually people behave."},{"t":12299,"text":"We have third reading on the floor. Go ahead, councelor Smart."},{"t":12303,"text":"Yeah, I I I will sub support um uh this reading and I just wanted to comment as well. I feel like pausing it at at at"},{"t":12311,"text":"this point is kind of like asking for a solution in search of a problem. Like we haven't yet established that there's really going to be a problem yet. We've"},{"t":12319,"text":"done this really good work. It's taken a long time to get here. You know, pausing it at this point feels like with no data"},{"t":12326,"text":"feels like not good governance. I think we need to move this ahead. Give it a year. Um, check back."},{"t":12336,"text":"Thank you. Uh, councelor Green, you wish to speak for a second time. Go ahead."},{"t":12340,"text":"Yeah, I I just want to address a couple of the comments. First of all, a lot has changed in four years and right now we're in a very precarious economic"},{"t":12348,"text":"situation as a country and as a province. Um, we have a huge trade war suddenly going on. Um, and this is going"},{"t":12356,"text":"to affect a lot of small businesses in Canada as well as the United States, but I I don't think we've done the deep dive"},{"t":12363,"text":"and it's not about, you know, I think we need the data and and we need the data from the business owners. They're the going to be the most affected in the"},{"t":12372,"text":"small villages. I don't um I I don't quarrel that homebased business is certainly um a great concept, but it"},{"t":12380,"text":"grew out of COVID. It didn't grow out of a need for homebased business per se. It came out of the COVID period because people were working from home and that's"},{"t":12388,"text":"how it sort of got started. So, a lot has changed since then and I I think it's only fair um in my conversations"},{"t":12397,"text":"with members of the BIA, they don't feel they've been well consulted and they would like to be. So, um those are my points. Thank you, Mayor."},{"t":12407,"text":"Thank you. Uh I did really speak on this in second reading just because I I I feel like at this point it's worth"},{"t":12414,"text":"moving this forward. I do I think there's been you know going back I had to go back and read the bylaw briefly."},{"t":12420,"text":"Um you know a lot of thought right the the 2 square meter sign allowed for any of these businesses. It's not advertised in a commercial way. It's it's got a lot"},{"t":12428,"text":"of restrictions. I'm not sure we got it 100% sure we got it right. I think the point raised about exclusion zones for certain kinds of business where it's you"},{"t":12436,"text":"know the cost differentials are substantial I think we should be cautious of um because we do want to be driving people into our villages because"},{"t":12444,"text":"that raises the value of those villages and and it's a circular piece so I don't I don't want to discard that but I do think that is something that we could"},{"t":12451,"text":"deal with that's I don't again these are not massive changes like for the kind of businesses we're talking about you know small hairdressers tutoring these kind"},{"t":12459,"text":"of things there's almost no changes it's really some of the other edge pieces that we're allowing. So I don't I don't feel comfortable stopping the whole"},{"t":12466,"text":"piece given the iterative process we've taken to get here and what is really can be a reasonably minor impact on an overall scheme of things that it should"},{"t":12474,"text":"be stopped. I do however think that a motion revising asking for consideration of that at the next goround is worthwhile as we're collecting that data"},{"t":12483,"text":"in time for that I think is appropriate but I don't think it's worth stopping everything and rethinking it from that perspective. That's where I I land on this. Go ahead councelor Patterson."},{"t":12492,"text":"Yes, thank you, mayor. I think, you know, we are somewhat unique in that we do have small villages in Oak Bay. We"},{"t":12500,"text":"don't have the big box stores that some of the other municipalities have. And so there's there's quite a variance. I I guess my concern based on on on what"},{"t":12508,"text":"you're saying and I understand that is if if we pass this now and then we find"},{"t":12515,"text":"that in fact you know say that the row of m where homes are for sale you know"},{"t":12522,"text":"that that's a big savings if you're not operating the with a business tax but you're operating under residential tax"},{"t":12531,"text":"scheme. How do you backtrack after the fact once you've issued licenses and they're up and running?"},{"t":12538,"text":"I I don't understand how getting a report from staff that might give clarity to this because we didn't do a"},{"t":12546,"text":"lot of consultation with the with the business districts that are here. Um, and I don't understand how asking for"},{"t":12555,"text":"the report from staff after this is already passed would achieve"},{"t":12563,"text":"a positive outcome after the fact because the business would already be up and running."},{"t":12571,"text":"I'll make a motion to extend the meeting by 25 minutes. Okay. 25 minutes."},{"t":12579,"text":"25 minutes. Is there a motion? I don't know. I think we're going to need that."},{"t":12582,"text":"I hope we don't. That's the motion on the floor. Is there a second to move and seconded? I'm going to call the question. All those in favor? Any"},{"t":12590,"text":"opposed? And opposed? Uh, let's get to our business. So, the motion on the floor is live for third reading of the"},{"t":12597,"text":"zoning amendment bylaw. Uh, and people had a chance to have a say. I'm going to call the question. All those in favor?"},{"t":12604,"text":"And those opposed? Have councelor Green Patterson Braithweight opposed? That does carry."},{"t":12610,"text":"Um, so that's the zoning portion. Um, no. I need we before any amendments happen, we have to do first and second"},{"t":12618,"text":"reading of all of these. So, can someone read the first and second reading?"},{"t":12622,"text":"I wish I would move that council give first and second reading to business license bylaw number 360388, amendment bylaw number 4979206."},{"t":12634,"text":"Moved and seconded. Thank you. I'm going to call the question on well have debate first. I know there's potentially some"},{"t":12641,"text":"amendments to some of these but we need a motion. Okay. See no conversation. All those in favor? Any opposed? None opposed that carries."},{"t":12649,"text":"Excuse me."},{"t":12650,"text":"Yes. All oppose. Council green. My apologies. Sorry."},{"t":12654,"text":"Council braithweight. Okay. So breath and green opposed."},{"t":12657,"text":"Your worship. I was further move that council give third reading to business."},{"t":12661,"text":"Sweet and see if there's any amendments that you wish to make to the business uh license pilot. So, go ahead, Councelor Smart."},{"t":12668,"text":"Thank you. Um, I'd like to make an amendment that the homebased business fee schedule be amended to add a 4month permit for urban agriculture for $50."},{"t":12680,"text":"Second. Could I motivate?"},{"t":12684,"text":"Uh, not yet. I'm just going to make sure that Sorry. Thank you, Mayor. Um Um, that is"},{"t":12692,"text":"a bit of a harder change to make. Um if maybe um what would be simpler is to"},{"t":12701,"text":"extend the urban agriculture seasonal option to the seasonal one that we added in uh for $50. Maybe if if that says the"},{"t":12710,"text":"seasonal one says seasonal/ urban including urban agriculture less than six months something like that is a"},{"t":12718,"text":"smaller change than creating a new category of four months. That's my concern. So uh just for your consideration."},{"t":12725,"text":"So would you be probably amending this to say seasonal with brackets including seasonal agriculture?"},{"t":12732,"text":"Is that is that reasonable?"},{"t":12735,"text":"Yeah, that would achieve that a six month or shorter period of time would result in that lower fee and that would extend to urban aulture as well than in"},{"t":12743,"text":"that case if it's operated less than six months."},{"t":12746,"text":"Okay. Thank you. So, councelor Smart, are you amendable to making the change that the the the change would be to change table five for special events?"},{"t":12755,"text":"That the word seasonal be amended to seasonal with brackets including seasonal agriculture."},{"t":12762,"text":"I think I'm likely fine with that. Could you reference the page number for me, please? Page 21 of 28 on the on the report."},{"t":12772,"text":"In that it says removing, and my apologies, that's where it's it's listing there changes. Um"},{"t":12779,"text":"yeah, thank you. I see that schedule."},{"t":12782,"text":"Sorry. Can you say Yeah. So under table five, it has, you know, special events. It has a single day and seasonal. And so the the motion"},{"t":12790,"text":"would be to amend the word seasonal to have a bracket including seasonal urban agriculture close bracket."},{"t":12799,"text":"I'm amendable to that."},{"t":12806,"text":"you the original secondary. Are you still comfortable with that language?"},{"t":12810,"text":"Uh, do you want to turn to staff? Before I do any motivating, I'm just going to turn to staff. Is that acceptably clear um for inclusion?"},{"t":12817,"text":"Thank you, mayor. Yes, that is clear to us."},{"t":12820,"text":"Okay. Thank you. Go ahead, Councelor Smart."},{"t":12823,"text":"Uh, thank you. Um, I'm proposing this change for a few reasons. Um, one of them is to encourage urban agriculture in our community. Um this came up a lot"},{"t":12832,"text":"in our cool kit program over the last few years about how important this was um in our community um and how it"},{"t":12840,"text":"contributes um both to sustainability and also um community connection uh as well as I I think it will actually"},{"t":12848,"text":"encourage more residents to apply for licenses that would otherwise avoid um licensing um because the fee will actually be obtainable. Uh and also I"},{"t":12857,"text":"think it will re further reduce the likelihood of um uh neighbors turning in neighbors with potentially existing um"},{"t":12865,"text":"farm stands that don't want to pay a higher fee and therefore we might actually see an instance of um existing"},{"t":12873,"text":"um stands closing because they don't want to to pay the higher fee. So, um, those are the reasons that I'm interested in supporting this and I and"},{"t":12881,"text":"I see that this is done in a lot of other municipalities um, to encourage urban agriculture."},{"t":12889,"text":"Okay, I move in a second. Any other discussion?"},{"t":12892,"text":"I'm going to call the question on the amendment. This is to add urban agriculture seasonal to the seasonal category. Uh, all those in favor? Any"},{"t":12902,"text":"opposed? Council Green opposed. That carries."},{"t":12906,"text":"Can I ask a question here, mayor? Uh, would this be the right place for me to um ask that the regular business license fee be um stay at $50 rather than be"},{"t":12916,"text":"moved up to 100 regular? Yeah, the regular business license fee."},{"t":12921,"text":"Yeah, I don't sorry I don't have it on my on my page. So, uh and the fees and licenses um I can't find it anywhere in"},{"t":12929,"text":"there. So, well, I think because the amendments we have are for homebased businesses, not for regular businesses. So, that's right. But then I"},{"t":12937,"text":"Yeah, just for clarification. So, so the current regular homebased business fee is $50. So those types is now a type one"},{"t":12945,"text":"business and so you could adjust the table for for type one business to be $50."},{"t":12955,"text":"Sorry, but I only want to do it for the commercial businesses, not for the um because because in in the in the report"},{"t":12963,"text":"it you're you're increasing the regular business fee from $50 to $100. Correct."},{"t":12969,"text":"That's that's correct. For home based business."},{"t":12972,"text":"For home based business, not commercial businesses."},{"t":12979,"text":"I thought but there's but the ordinary commercial business are we not doing a more wholesome business license overview"},{"t":12987,"text":"of the bylaw and and so it's actually doesn't it say in there that the um the"},{"t":12994,"text":"regular business license fee is going from $50 to $100 for regular commercial business. Is that not what it says?"},{"t":13002,"text":"Yeah. First of all yeah if the if the report suggested that that would be not correct. So this is we're only dealing with home homebased"},{"t":13010,"text":"business license fees here. So but they are increasing from 50 to 100. So the current homebased business license which equals the type one is currently at 50."},{"t":13020,"text":"Thank you. Okay."},{"t":13023,"text":"So we have a uh can I given that this has been amended I get third reading as amended? I would move your worship that council give third reading to business"},{"t":13031,"text":"license bylaw number 36031 1988 amendment bylaw number 49792026 as amended. Thank you. Is there second?"},{"t":13040,"text":"Seconded. Thank you. [clears throat] Any other discussion now that it's amended?"},{"t":13044,"text":"All right. All those in favor and those opposed councel green and councelor Braithweight opposed. That carries."},{"t":13052,"text":"Move on to the municipal ticket information."},{"t":13055,"text":"Your worship. I would move that council give first and second reading to municipal ticket information bylaw number 4846 2023 amendment bylaw number"},{"t":13064,"text":"4982 2026 thank you sir seconder"},{"t":13070,"text":"a hand thank you any discussion seeing none all those in favor and those"},{"t":13077,"text":"opposed council green opposed further move your worship that council give third reading to municipal ticket"},{"t":13085,"text":"information file law number 4846 2023 amendment bylaw number 4982 20226 moved and seconded"},{"t":13094,"text":"and any further discussion on third reading seeing none all those in favor those opposed council braith opposed"},{"t":13102,"text":"moving on to the parking facilities may worship I would move that council give first and second reading to parking facilities bylaw number 3540 1986"},{"t":13110,"text":"amendment bylaw number 4980 2026 moved it Seconded. Need a hand for seconding. Thank you. Any discussion around the parking facilities bylaw?"},{"t":13123,"text":"Seeing none, all those in favor? Any opposed? Councelor Green opposed."},{"t":13129,"text":"I would further move your worship that council give third reading to parking facilities bylaw number 3540 1986 amendment bylaw number 49802026."},{"t":13139,"text":"Same second. Any further discussion on the third reading? Seeing none, all those in favor? Any opposed? Council Green opposed."},{"t":13146,"text":"You worship. I would move that council give first and second reading to sign bylaw number 3946 1997 amendment bylaw"},{"t":13154,"text":"number 49812026 moved and seconded. Thank you. Any other discussion? Seeing none, all those in"},{"t":13162,"text":"favor and those opposed. Councelor Green and Patterson opposed."},{"t":13168,"text":"Worship. Further move that council give third reading to sign bylaw number 3946197 amendment bylaw number 49812026"},{"t":13176,"text":"and seconded. Any other discussion on third reading? All those in favor? Any opposed? Councelor Patterson agreed."},{"t":13184,"text":"Opposed we move then to the uh prepare a report um to present you read that in. I might"},{"t":13192,"text":"suggest given the conversation that um uh that that report include u uh"},{"t":13200,"text":"potential changes around uh um what was it? I can't remember the term that was used now for the"},{"t":13206,"text":"exclusionary uh exclusion zones or or yeah, just leave it there. But I'll leave that to council if someone wants to make that. But perhaps I can get"},{"t":13215,"text":"someone to read that the motion in or I'll move that um council direct staff to prepare a report that reviews the impact of changes to homebased business"},{"t":13222,"text":"regulations um including that would include ex exclusion zones around the village areas"},{"t":13230,"text":"um to be presented in the first quarter of 2020 or sorry the second quarter of 2028."},{"t":13241,"text":"Is there a seconder for that?"},{"t":13243,"text":"Second by councelor Patterson. Um go ahead councelor brie if you wish to motivate"},{"t":13252,"text":"because it's different than than Yeah, I I mean I I I am in I I would like to since this has gone forward um"},{"t":13259,"text":"uh in its um and the way it has been presented I do I would like to have a report coming back with the exclusion zones because I think that's important"},{"t":13268,"text":"to our BAS um in all of the different villages. And I also think that um I don't want to wait until the second quarter of 2029 for a report to come"},{"t":13276,"text":"back. I think that um we owe it to our businesses to have it come back sooner than that. Um I was going to go for one year, but it's really probably going to"},{"t":13285,"text":"be more like well it actually will be one year. It'll be one year. So yeah."},{"t":13290,"text":"Uh and just for clarification, uh the language that you use for the exclusionary zones, I think is it just I think the intention here is to bring"},{"t":13298,"text":"back like sort of what options are there, correct? Not not bring back changes to a bylaw. It's really just Okay."},{"t":13309,"text":"discussion councelor Watson."},{"t":13312,"text":"Yes. Thank you. Before I would even know how to vote on this, I want to know what the what um there there's no kind of"},{"t":13319,"text":"policy direction here. What is it we're concerned about? What would we be trying to protect? What are we asking for answers? Or what is the problem that we"},{"t":13326,"text":"would be requesting this report for to address? Because I'm not sure I understand that at all."},{"t":13335,"text":"I might just turn to staff based on the on there's a there's a recommendation here that staff on the impacts of changes in homebased business regulations. So I'm assuming that the"},{"t":13344,"text":"anticipation would be number of businesses um increasing decreasing etc coming back"},{"t":13351,"text":"and if there's been any reports of negative impacts from bylaw or those sorts of things would come back I'm assuming but um staff anything else I"},{"t":13360,"text":"guess was some some stuff around uh exclusionary zoning."},{"t":13365,"text":"Yes. Uh if you recall in the last report there there was statistics of how many business licenses were out there, how"},{"t":13374,"text":"how many bylaw files there were. So something similar to that to show what the change is. Um and yeah, we we can"},{"t":13382,"text":"explore exclusionary zones uh and and and include that in the report as well."},{"t":13390,"text":"Can I just given it's a one year and it's almost it's going to be very difficult to kind of just prioritize staff. I'm just going to turn to the"},{"t":13397,"text":"mover on this one. Maybe just rather than like recommendations on exclusion zones perhaps just include uh"},{"t":13406,"text":"geoloccation information as part of that. Then that way we can at least see where the business licenses are related to the villages. Then we can make a"},{"t":13413,"text":"determination if there's a problem and if we want to address it. It might be a a much simpler and a clearer direction than it is on the thing. Is the mover amendable to that"},{"t":13422,"text":"seconder? Okay. Okay. Thank you. I think that's that. So, go ahead, Councelor Watson."},{"t":13427,"text":"And just a follow-up question. Is there any way in that kind of reporting? I don't know what the expectations could be of staff to actually comment on the"},{"t":13434,"text":"economic activity that's been generated by by changing our bylaw framework, by changing our regulatory framework to"},{"t":13441,"text":"allow to allow um this more of this more homebased business activity in our community than"},{"t":13448,"text":"we have so far. I I mean, I think that isn't that part of the issue here is like how prosperous is our community? Um"},{"t":13455,"text":"and and what are we encouraging? So, I wouldn't want to lose that. And I just wonder if that's even feasible or if that's way beyond what we could expect."},{"t":13464,"text":"I think I think where we're at right now is they're going to give us numbers and locations and that's about it. So, I think analysis is not part of the super report. Anticipated within the year. I"},{"t":13473,"text":"think probably maybe a longer term time frame might that might be possible. But, Mr. B."},{"t":13478,"text":"Yeah, thank you, mayor. Um, yeah, I want to echo that. I think we can as part of what we had in mind was a simple update"},{"t":13485,"text":"on what are the results not unlike the inflousing report you got earlier this year but what the question what to do with that in followup is a separate one"},{"t":13494,"text":"I think because yeah we can go very deep um uh specific on this topic but hopefully um by that time we're well"},{"t":13503,"text":"underway with uh some village area planning maybe not in short in some shape or form and I think the bigger question that we'll have to turn our"},{"t":13511,"text":"mind to anyway is uh with uh the growth that is now added to the OCP for residential growth we also need to think"},{"t":13518,"text":"about the wider business growth so I think a more in-depth review of economic development within the district probably would be better placed there but it"},{"t":13527,"text":"could be attached to this particular topic if we specifically wanted to delve into homebased business but yeah staff"},{"t":13534,"text":"we would suggest first we'll give you some of the basic information and then at that time council can have the discussion and kind of further scope what are the issues that we want to further delve into. Thanks."},{"t":13545,"text":"So the motion as I have it on the floor right now is a report coming back in quarter Q2 2028. It'll include a summary"},{"t":13552,"text":"of what's happened changes and some geoloccation so we understand where the businesses are going to are located to give us some guidelines about whether we"},{"t":13559,"text":"think they're concentrating around the villages and may have to change our policies at that point is my understanding. Council Patterson you should add something. Yes. Call the question."},{"t":13568,"text":"Yeah. Thank you mayor. I and the reason I support this is because we we haven't done village planning yet. We we had no conversations about the differential in"},{"t":13577,"text":"the tax rates when we looked at homebased businesses versus what uh we charge in commercial areas and based on"},{"t":13586,"text":"discussions um had with BC assessments homebased business is secondary to your residence so it gets taxed in one"},{"t":13594,"text":"structure live work unit business residents are co-equal so it's different um tax assessment different um uh"},{"t":13603,"text":"tax opportunities also for people. And I and perhaps I'm wrong in thinking this, but I thought live work business units"},{"t":13612,"text":"were something that would be uh something that would be considered in village plans, but we haven't done that."},{"t":13618,"text":"And so, um, by advancing this and not having had those discussions, we could"},{"t":13624,"text":"potentially be be limiting our ourselves for potential um opportunities"},{"t":13632,"text":"directly at within the uh vicinity of of our villages. It could also be attractive. So, yeah, I you know, I"},{"t":13642,"text":"think it would have been nicer to do this in advance, but we didn't. Uh, councelor Smart, we do."},{"t":13651,"text":"Yeah, I'm I'm really struggling with this one because I I agree with the concern around um really wanting to"},{"t":13660,"text":"support our our village centers, but I'm not sure if if the data that is being requested would really allow me at this"},{"t":13667,"text":"table to make the type of um judgment call and and and direction like I really feel like this kind of work needs to be"},{"t":13676,"text":"um done under the framework of economic development in its entire entire like who is to say that more homebased"},{"t":13684,"text":"businesses near urban village centers isn't actually encouraging more people to go to the urban village centers. Um"},{"t":13691,"text":"like I so I don't see as the motion as it's written now would actually the data I don't think it would give me all the"},{"t":13698,"text":"information I would need to suggest what policies to change and I don't think it would be conclusive as to whether it was actually a problem to have more homebased businesses near the village."},{"t":13709,"text":"Um it it's a more like this is why I think it would be great if we had an economic development position with that kind of expertise at the municipality or"},{"t":13717,"text":"if we had a um you know consultant do a report for us looking at how we could um really look at our whole economic development piece as a municipality. Um"},{"t":13726,"text":"so I support the intent but I don't support the current motion and its wording because I don't think even if this came back to the table it would allow me to make policy decisions."},{"t":13738,"text":"I don't see any other comments. So I think I'm going to call the question. Uh all those in favor of the motion as it's on the floor. This is again 2028 geocation information and those opposed."},{"t":13749,"text":"Councelor Smart opposed and Watson opposed. Uh that carries. We move then to council priority. Last motion which"},{"t":13757,"text":"is to declare that deem complete on adoption of the related bylaws. So moved. Is there a seconder?"},{"t":13765,"text":"Seconded. Thank you. Any discussion?"},{"t":13768,"text":"All those in favor? Any opposed? Else green. Opposed. Okay. And Braithweight. Okay. Uh that carries."},{"t":13777,"text":"Uh we then move to new business. Don't have any new business on the table, but I do anticipate I think council braith"},{"t":13784,"text":"you had a notice of motion. So you'll read it into the record today and it would be considered if if seconded at the next meeting. Correct."},{"t":13791,"text":"You just want me to read it from the therefore be it resolved? Please."},{"t":13793,"text":"Okay. Uh therefore be it resolved council direct staff to prepare a report examining options for updating the uplands regulation bylaw and related"},{"t":13802,"text":"land use regulations to preserve the unique character of the uplands while accommodating appropriate housing opportunities including one the extent"},{"t":13811,"text":"of council's authority under the Oak Bay specials powers act and other applicable legislation to establish development regulations specific to the uplands and"},{"t":13820,"text":"two options to regulate further subdivision of uplands properties."},{"t":13824,"text":"and three options to establish limits on the number of principal buildings on Upland's properties. Thank you."},{"t":13832,"text":"That'll come back next week. Any other business?"},{"t":13837,"text":"I'm not seeing any. So, I'm going to look for a motion to adjurnn. Moved, seconded. I don't think anybody's going to be opposed to this one. All those in"},{"t":13845,"text":"favor? Any opposed? None opposed. Thanks everybody. That took us a little longer to get through than I thought, but we got through it all. So, thank you."},{"t":13859,"text":"Longer than you anticipated."}],"words":37264,"fetchedAt":"2026-10-03T01:39:43.551Z"}