{"videoId":"ogcGpxj44aA","source":"serpapi","segments":[{"t":90,"text":"This is just a audio check for the the live stream."},{"t":117,"text":"online audio check for the live stream."},{"t":203,"text":"Audio check."},{"t":377,"text":"Good evening everyone and welcome to the regularly scheduled council meeting for April the 27th. I'm Kevin Murdoch uh the mayor and I'm pleased that we have all"},{"t":385,"text":"of council with us this evening which we usually do. Uh, councelor Watson's just stepped up for one minute, but we'll be back in time for uh, for the business at hand. Uh, as we call the meeting to"},{"t":393,"text":"order, we just like to acknowledge that we gather on the traditional territories of the Lungan people, known today as the Sonheis and Esquamalt nations. Come on,"},{"t":401,"text":"come on through. Um, and that their historic connections to these joining lands and waters continue to this day. Uh, our first order of"},{"t":409,"text":"business is approval of the agenda. I have a mover and a seconder. Any discussion?"},{"t":415,"text":"Seeing none, all those in favor? Any opposed? None opposed. We have one set of minutes from April 13th. Or two, sorry. 6:00 and 7 p.m. Can we have a motion to approve? Moved and seconded."},{"t":426,"text":"We got a seconder."},{"t":427,"text":"Thanks. Uh, is there any corrections, amendments, or changes to the minutes?"},{"t":440,"text":"I'm just going to make sure I have the right list here. Uh, oh, you're right. April two for April 13th. That's it."},{"t":449,"text":"April 27th. Oh, that's a regular. Sorry."},{"t":454,"text":"Sorry. Uh we're good. Just Hey, better to double check. Uh so we have the motion to approve. Any other corrections or amendments? Seeing none, all those in"},{"t":461,"text":"favor? Any opposed? None opposed. And then we need to just receive advisory design panel from February 10th. Moved and seconded. Uh I don't usually discuss"},{"t":469,"text":"those. We're just receiving their approved minutes. All those in favor?"},{"t":472,"text":"Any opposed? None opposed. Uh mayor's remarks. Uh it's nice to see our room fairly full. Um we have a uh uh it's a"},{"t":479,"text":"good thing and the bad thing about uh applications that are first time in front of council. There's always lots of interest uh which we appreciate and uh"},{"t":486,"text":"and look forward to. Uh procedurally for those attending here today um the land use items on the agenda are not uh for public input but you're welcome to stay"},{"t":494,"text":"and listen to the conversation and we have received a large number of amount of correspondence on all the applications and we are able to consider that the written correspondence as part"},{"t":503,"text":"of our deliberations tonight. Um a few updates for the benefit of council and perhaps the public. Um I just want to"},{"t":510,"text":"appreciate my appreciation to the uh counselors who are able to attend the association of Vancouver Island Coastal Communities. uh for those who don't know"},{"t":517,"text":"it's a uh it's an annual conference in which uh for Vancouver Island municipalities where uh resolutions are"},{"t":524,"text":"passed uh making requests of the provincial government uh for changes to policies or regulations um and then those ultimately feed up to the union of"},{"t":533,"text":"BC municipalities where they are either endorsed or not and and uh legislatively they don't have to do what we ask but they do have to respond uh to what the"},{"t":540,"text":"municipalities asked. So that was that had happened this weekend. Um there were three resolutions from Oak Bay. Uh all three of which passed. So I'm very"},{"t":547,"text":"appreciative of that. Uh I want to just also just say congratulations. The uh Oak Bay staff had a team enter the Times Colonist 10K this year. Uh so if you see"},{"t":557,"text":"anybody hobbling in here, that's why. Uh congratulations. Some very fast times."},{"t":561,"text":"I'm looking at you. Uh and uh uh there is a uh I just think it's a great team building thing to see staff out doing"},{"t":569,"text":"that. Um we uh also just had a chance to attend uh the Chamber of Commerce's annual general meeting this week. Um the"},{"t":577,"text":"Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General Nina Kger uh spoke and uh really appreciate uh her listing of some of the"},{"t":585,"text":"government's proposed investments in both public safety as well as uh supporting mental health and addictions crisis is certainly appreciated. I thought one item of interest that's been"},{"t":593,"text":"announced just last week maybe earlier this week is a pilot project called last yeah last week called track and trace which is using some emerging"},{"t":602,"text":"technologies to track sort of in real time uh almost like a DNA assessment the origins and makeup of drugs. So these these these almost all the drugs now are"},{"t":610,"text":"manufactured and so it facilitates their backtracking of these drugs to find out to help them uh determine the sources of"},{"t":617,"text":"these pieces. So, um they seem to feel and and um uh police leadership was there as well and they really feel like it's it's going to be a good tool for"},{"t":625,"text":"them to help address some of the organized crime issues with with the drug crisis. So, that's positive. Um I also uh wearing my hat as the regional"},{"t":632,"text":"district uh regional hospital district chair um attended two significant meetings. One was with of the hospital"},{"t":640,"text":"district chairs uh and staff with Island Health up in Nimo. We spent a half day together looking at some some planning and some of the challenges that they're"},{"t":648,"text":"facing and how hospital districts might work closer together with them. Uh and somewhat related but not directly uh had a there was a community organized"},{"t":656,"text":"meeting u with some potential uh partners and and and bodies of uh that have interest in the Oak Bay Lodge"},{"t":663,"text":"specifically and uh so I was able to attend that in my role as well as hospital district staff. And uh I all I can really say about that it was a great"},{"t":671,"text":"meeting with all the right people in the room. Uh it's a slow process between the n the uh potential third party partners which is going through a expression of"},{"t":679,"text":"interest process through the hospital district um but the you know having the province and highland health and other parties um it's hard to get everybody"},{"t":687,"text":"together at the same time um and I'm very appreciative people are trying to make this work it's just very difficult in the framework especially with the current uh financial situation in the province."},{"t":697,"text":"Uh that's it for my comments. Uh we obviously have some large items on the agenda tonight. So I'll just ask that we as uh our best practices are to keep our"},{"t":705,"text":"questions short, our answers short, and our comments short and uh have a robust debate on the on the issues in front of"},{"t":712,"text":"us. Our next item of business is the public comment and question period. And since we have many new faces in the room here, I thought I would just very"},{"t":720,"text":"briefly explain what that is. every meeting uh we allocate time uh to allow members of the public to speak to council on items that are not on the"},{"t":728,"text":"agenda. There are some items on the agenda that are that do welcome public input and we'll invite you forward uh to speak to those items on the agenda. Um"},{"t":736,"text":"but if there's anything that uh an opport anything of interest about Oak Bay, if there's questions, comments uh about anything, uh this is an"},{"t":744,"text":"opportunity to address council. Um so you're more than welcome to do so. So if anybody wishes to come forward and and uh address council, you're you're"},{"t":752,"text":"welcome to do so at this time. Just raise your hand and I'm going to make the same invitation. If people are watching online, you can use the zoom app. It's star9 uh use zoom app to uh to"},{"t":761,"text":"raise your hand. Please come forward and I will give you you can be a demonstration for us uh on how to do this. So have a seat."},{"t":768,"text":"Thank you. What time?"},{"t":771,"text":"Absolutely. So uh what we ask is that you just state your name, your full name, just your municipality of resident. You don't have to give your address"},{"t":779,"text":"and then you would have uh have up to three. Oh, no, sorry. On the microphone itself. There's a button. There we go."},{"t":786,"text":"You don't have to close. You can you can sit back for a minute. It does pick up the voice quite well. So, yeah. Name, municipality, and you have up to three minutes. Anton Brackage, Oak Bay."},{"t":794,"text":"Welcome."},{"t":796,"text":"Um, I'm here to address the honorable mayor and members of council about the um, election signed bylaw amendment on"},{"t":804,"text":"tonight's agenda about which I have to say I have grave concerns. Um, not mainly with the"},{"t":811,"text":"restrictions for safety or traffic visibility. I'd like to see more evidence of I'm sorry."},{"t":817,"text":"Uh, we do have that is coming up on the agenda tonight. So, we will have an opportunity to speak to it at that time. at that time."},{"t":823,"text":"Um, but not in this portion. We'll keep comments to those to the to the times to the items themselves when they come up. Okay. Yes. Thank you."},{"t":832,"text":"Yeah. Thank you."},{"t":839,"text":"Uh, are there any other Sorry, that was a good example though of of how to state your name and municipality and and allow me to to state the the process. Uh so"},{"t":848,"text":"again items on the agenda if they're available for public input we'll have the opportunity at that time. Um but uh anything else uh is open I don't see people online."},{"t":858,"text":"This is just this is open in every meeting and some meetings we have lots of people who want to speak to us and and some meetings we have none. So uh I don't see hands raised. I know it's a"},{"t":866,"text":"little bit intimidating but it's uh we're always very welcoming to people who want to talk to us. Okay."},{"t":876,"text":"on the agenda. Our first order of business is 7.1, the Housing Supply Act, our interim housing target order report."},{"t":884,"text":"Um, Miss Cook, uh, please go ahead."},{"t":888,"text":"Thank you, Mayor, and good evening. Um, I'll keep my introduction relatively brief. So, this report is in response to a letter sent by the Provincial Minister"},{"t":895,"text":"of Housing and Municipal Affairs to the District of Oak Bay on March 27th, uh, 2026 requesting interim reporting"},{"t":903,"text":"related to housing in Oak Bay. The letter from the province requires a district to provide information on the number of net new dwelling units"},{"t":910,"text":"delivered between October 2025 and March 2026 as well as is reporting on a number of other items as listed in the staff report and included in attachment one."},{"t":920,"text":"This information has been requested by the minister under section 13 of the housing supply act which gives the minister the authority to request"},{"t":927,"text":"information for municipalities related to the demand for and the supply of housing. Attachment four includes a report prepared by staff with all the"},{"t":936,"text":"information requested by the minister and staff are happy to take any questions that council may have. Thank you."},{"t":943,"text":"Thank you. Are there any questions? Go ahead. Councelor Smart."},{"t":949,"text":"Uh thank you. Um through you mayor. Um uh my question was just for the benefit of the public. I wondered if staff could clarify the housing targets that we have"},{"t":958,"text":"as a goal this year compared to what is presented in the report which um would be the occupancy permits that are completed. Thank you."},{"t":966,"text":"Go ahead, Miss Cook."},{"t":967,"text":"Thank you through you, mayor. Um so we're currently in the third year of a reporting period. So the housing target order for net new dwelling units is 258."},{"t":978,"text":"Um so we're halfway through that reporting period and the total net new dwelling units um over that cumulative three years is 58 dwelling units delivered."},{"t":988,"text":"Thank you."},{"t":991,"text":"Don't see any uh other questions. So perhaps I can get the motion uh on the floor. This is just at the interim. So"},{"t":998,"text":"this is move the recommendation which is basically um sending this report to the minister. Moved and seconded. Uh any other discussion before I call the"},{"t":1006,"text":"question? I will uh say I did appreciate uh the original request was to have two in this time period. So I appreciated"},{"t":1014,"text":"the minister uh when pushed back on it just wasn't reasonable. Um still not a big fan of having to do quarterly reports. I think it takes up time. It"},{"t":1021,"text":"could be better spent. But uh um we do as they ask. So here we are. Thank you very much for pulling this together in short order to Miss Cook. Uh I'll call"},{"t":1029,"text":"the question. All those in favor? Any opposed? None opposed. Uh we move then to item 7.2. We have a heritage revitalization agreement amendment for"},{"t":1038,"text":"1587 York. Please uh with us we have uh Mr. Green, our deputy director of corporate building and planning services. Um welcome Mr. Green. I believe the applicants are here as well."},{"t":1048,"text":"Um may wish to come forward because I'm sure there will be uh questions. Go ahead, Mr. Green."},{"t":1054,"text":"Good evening, members of council. The district has received a heritage revitalization agreement amendment application for the property located at"},{"t":1062,"text":"1587 York Place. The application is to amend a previously approved HRA application that was approved by council"},{"t":1070,"text":"on March the 13th of 2025 where council adopted Heritage Revitalization agreement bylaw number 4885 2025 and"},{"t":1079,"text":"which authorized revitalization of Anandale House its relocation to the northeast corner of the site and the subdivision subdivision of the lot into"},{"t":1088,"text":"four parcels. that subsequent subdivision uh was subsequently approved and the lots registered with LTSA in late 2025."},{"t":1097,"text":"The purpose of the amendment application is seeking to revise solar design of Anandale House by removing the rear wing, reducing the number of dwelling"},{"t":1106,"text":"units from four to two and seeking designation of certain interior features."},{"t":1112,"text":"This application was presented to the Heritage Commission on April the 1st of this year and the Heritage Commission recommended that the amendment application be approved. The applicant"},{"t":1120,"text":"and their consultants are here this evening and would like to provide an overview of the application and the proposed changes and which is also included in the council agenda package"},{"t":1129,"text":"this evening. Happy to answer any questions that council may have on the application. Thank you very much Mr. Green. Mr."},{"t":1137,"text":"Collins, welcome. If you just follow the regular process, state your name and municipality for the record and then you're welcome to broadcast from Zebra"},{"t":1145,"text":"Design and I live in North Sandwich, but I work in Oak Bay every day, five days a week anyway."},{"t":1151,"text":"So, good evening, Mayor Murdoch and members of Oak Bay Council. My name is Russ Collins. Um, we're here tonight to present a modification to the Heritage"},{"t":1160,"text":"Revitalization Agreement or HRA for Annandale approved in 2025."},{"t":1166,"text":"The changes are made necessary by circumstances and challenges that have evolved since beginning construction in the summer of last year. The largest"},{"t":1174,"text":"revision in our current proposal is the exclusion of the west or rear wing of the original house. For numerous reasons, the retention of the west wing"},{"t":1183,"text":"is no longer a viable option and the owner cannot proceed. The rear wing has experienced the greatest degree of alterations and retains the least"},{"t":1192,"text":"heritage integrity according to multiple heritage experts who have reported on the Anandale House. The revised proposed"},{"t":1201,"text":"proposal refocuses conservation efforts on the most intact and historically significant elements of Anendale."},{"t":1209,"text":"In-depth consultation with heritage consultant Katie CR have informed a carefully considered solution which has additional heritage conservation benefits compared to the original HR."},{"t":1220,"text":"These proposed revisions will provide an improved heritage experience for all public facing sides of the house and will make possible the continuation of the rehabilitation project."},{"t":1231,"text":"Another change is to convert the building to two dwelling units instead of four, eliminating some code constraints associated with converting"},{"t":1239,"text":"to four separate strata units. Katie CR has prepared a supporting letter that accompanied our resubmission and I'll"},{"t":1246,"text":"briefly mention the key points she point she outlines in as heritage wins. First is the preservation of the interior"},{"t":1254,"text":"spaces. The four most intact original rooms will now be designated, including arches, fireplaces, and folding doors in"},{"t":1262,"text":"a mill work. The original windows on the front-facing York Street facade can now be retained and preserved instead of replaced."},{"t":1271,"text":"The second front chimney can now be restored using original bricks and salible materials and design elements from the rear wing will be used in the"},{"t":1279,"text":"restoration work on the main house. With her guidance, the revised proposal refocuses conservation efforts on the"},{"t":1287,"text":"most intact and historically significant elements of Adenale."},{"t":1291,"text":"So why can't we proceed with what was approved under the HR?"},{"t":1296,"text":"Since the house was lifted last fall, a number of structural and building condition realities have come to light that were previously unknown."},{"t":1304,"text":"Starting with the overall home, there has been a significant deterioration of Anandale House over time. Since it its"},{"t":1312,"text":"designation in 1997, limitations associated with this designation have contributed to deferred maintenance and"},{"t":1320,"text":"incremental decay. This was not something we could have quantified before stripping the house and dividing or diving into the detailed design stage"},{"t":1328,"text":"of the project. Building on this, these newly revealed conditions also have negative implications on how feasible it is to meet today's code requirements."},{"t":1338,"text":"The previously approved HA may have pushed the development into part three building code requirements rather than part 9 due to the excessive square"},{"t":1346,"text":"footage. This introduces much more stringent requirements related to fire separation, egress, and building envelope performance, which are"},{"t":1354,"text":"difficult to achieve when working with an existing heritage structure without compromising its heritage character."},{"t":1361,"text":"In addition, strata titling would have required the complete replacement of all windows to bring the structure into compliance with a different level of the building code."},{"t":1371,"text":"The project team also encountered servicing constraints. For example, the available water flow from municipal infrastructure was insufficient to"},{"t":1380,"text":"support fire hydrant requirements which would have triggered the need for sprinklers within Anendale House."},{"t":1386,"text":"Integrating a full sprinkler system into a complex existing structure like Anendale presents significant challenges."},{"t":1393,"text":"As the site team worked to open the structure to complete hazmat abatement and interior stripout, additional limitations became apparent."},{"t":1403,"text":"Excuse me. Several concealed spaces and false walls were identified which required additional abatement beyond what was originally anticipated."},{"t":1413,"text":"From a structural perspective, the deterioration revealed was limited has limited our ability to reconfigure the layout to accommodate the four separate"},{"t":1421,"text":"units in the previously proposed HRA by staying in keeping with the existing layout. More of Anandale's heritage"},{"t":1429,"text":"value can be retained. And finally, when the lifting process required to begin excavation and foundation construction"},{"t":1437,"text":"revealed critical structural v vulnerabilities during the initial lift of the house, the large span supporting the drawing room, foyer, and dining room"},{"t":1446,"text":"began to swell and buckle under the structures immense weight."},{"t":1450,"text":"You can kind of see that in how the the floors are actually curving in these um slides."},{"t":1457,"text":"So the construction team quickly paused the lift to frame quite a few large shear walls to help distribute the load and preventing further potential damage"},{"t":1465,"text":"to the structure. All these factors taken together have directly impacted the project's viability."},{"t":1471,"text":"As per staff's request, a landlift analysis has been submitted with this amendment package. The report indicates"},{"t":1478,"text":"that the project as previously approved is not viable even when considering only the land value and the existing improvements comp completed in recent"},{"t":1487,"text":"years. I'll be deferring any questions related to this analysis to Mike who is with us on uh on um online tonight."},{"t":1497,"text":"With this context in mind, I'd like to walk you through the design revisions proposed as part of this HA amendment."},{"t":1505,"text":"On this elevation, the south side of the house, we have incorporated a couple of changes at the suggestion of our heritage consultant."},{"t":1512,"text":"This slide of the house is quite visible to the public from York Place. The retained second chimney will be quite visible from this vantage."},{"t":1522,"text":"There's a new strategy to preserve and relocate a small dormer from the west wing to this elevation, which you can see here."},{"t":1530,"text":"A new gabled dormer feature on the south elevation will replace an old mid-century shed roof. Also at the"},{"t":1537,"text":"suggestion of a heritage consultant, this new larger dormer on the left replicates design elements from original dormers on other sides of the house."},{"t":1547,"text":"This is the side from which the wing has been removed."},{"t":1552,"text":"We have designed a new con conservatory style eating nook adjacent to the kitchen which our heritage consulted supports. You see the bubbled area on"},{"t":1560,"text":"the floor plan. The veranda from the north side of the house is being extended and wrapped around the east or the rear of the house. Details will be"},{"t":1569,"text":"matched to the existing with outdoor with an outdoor cooking area and covered dining area to enhance the space as well. You can see that here on the floor plan."},{"t":1581,"text":"The enclosed nook with its divided windows will echo the previous glassed in elements of the Anandale veranda which you can see on this slide."},{"t":1591,"text":"A new dormer is proposed on the east elevation like the one on the south elevation. It matches the details of the original dormers."},{"t":1599,"text":"On the north elevation you can see the veranda has been extended to wrap around the east. The extended ver will be carefully detailed to match the existing."},{"t":1609,"text":"This slide of Anandale will be less visible to the street, but maintains a balanced design true to the charm of the original home. You can see that parking was previously provided under the wing."},{"t":1620,"text":"Given the exclusion of the wing and the parking and the parking arrangement, we have designed a a detached two-car"},{"t":1627,"text":"garage with a low pitch roof at the end of the driveway to accommodate enclosed off- streetet parking. The design of the garage is complimentary to the house."},{"t":1635,"text":"Details and exterior materials, glazing and doors will be matched with the original home and will include French doors and a trellis. The landscape plans"},{"t":1644,"text":"have been modified to accommodate all these amendments. Which brings us back to the front of the home on York Place and the principal public interface with"},{"t":1652,"text":"this beautiful house. The second chimney will be restored and visible from the street which is which we are very"},{"t":1660,"text":"pleased to be able to include in this proposal. Due to not stratiting the units, we are now able to retain and restore all the original windows on the"},{"t":1668,"text":"facade which we were prevented from in the previous HA. The realities of the current proposal are such that we are"},{"t":1676,"text":"losing some square footage of the original house, dropping from 7,726 ft down to 5,778"},{"t":1685,"text":"ft, which is still a very large home. We believe we are delivering a balanced design that hugely elevates Anaddale from its current condition, allows the"},{"t":1693,"text":"continued residential use of the home and improves the rehabilitation structures presence in the public realm."},{"t":1702,"text":"The civic experience of Anaddale will only be enhanced by these proposed changes. The positives of the revised"},{"t":1709,"text":"HRA are quite powerful and will provide a significant augmentation of the interior spaces to be protected by the"},{"t":1717,"text":"HRA. In addition, major elements of the rear wing are transferring into the south elevation and and wherever"},{"t":1725,"text":"possible materials from the rear wing will be salvaged and reused such as siding, fascia board, sophets, window"},{"t":1732,"text":"horns, moldings, etc. We would really like to be able to move this project forward as expediently as possible to"},{"t":1739,"text":"prevent any further exposure to the elements and deterioration of the building. We've already had this proposal reviewed by the Oak Bay"},{"t":1747,"text":"Heritage Commission and received their approval at the beginning of April. We trust that the benefits of the new amendments and the balancing of heritage"},{"t":1754,"text":"objectives with fiscal realities and site conditions will resonate with the mayor and council. Thank you very much for your time this evening."},{"t":1764,"text":"Uh thank you very much Mr. Collins and and welcome to the team that's online as well. I appreciate people being out of the country and so forth unable to be here in person but able to answer"},{"t":1772,"text":"questions if necessary. Um I turn to this body. Uh we have the request in front of us. Um are there questions for the applicant?"},{"t":1783,"text":"Go ahead councelor Smart and Councelor Braithweight."},{"t":1785,"text":"Yeah thank you um through you mayor to the applicant. I um was just curious um seeing how thoughtful this request has"},{"t":1794,"text":"has come to us already um really looking at balancing um what can be provided in exchange for the tough situation you're"},{"t":1802,"text":"in. I I guess I'm just interested to know because I imagine you looked at all the different options. Did you look at an option that was three units um within"},{"t":1810,"text":"the house kind of closer to the arrangement of the original um proposal?"},{"t":1815,"text":"Um I you've kind of answered it a little bit in your presentation, but I just wondered if you could um because it is of course a loss for us to lose those housing units. If you could just"},{"t":1822,"text":"elaborate um a little bit more on um why it needed to be two and not um three, not the three that we proposed before."},{"t":1832,"text":"I mean Mike, I understand the units needed to be reduced, but I just wonder why they had to be reduced to two and not just three."},{"t":1840,"text":"Um because we're trying to avoid doing the strata. If we kept going with the strata, then we would have to replace"},{"t":1847,"text":"all the windows. Um we can't it was just getting to be too expensive and it wasn't going to be worth doing it. So,"},{"t":1855,"text":"we thought if we can retain the windows, restore them, keep the siding, keep things as close to"},{"t":1862,"text":"the original as possible, that we would be you can have the chair if you wish."},{"t":1866,"text":"And um and keep it more like a single family house with a small suite, not none of it stratit a secondary studio suite."},{"t":1876,"text":"May I add something? Sure. Can you hear me? Okay."},{"t":1878,"text":"Uh yeah, just name and mun and uh municipality."},{"t":1881,"text":"Katie CR, heritage consultant, city of Victoria. uh but work in op um it's a very good question and I think one thing to just keep in mind is it did"},{"t":1889,"text":"facilitate the heritage designation of the interior rooms so in not making all of the cuts and changes to the interior"},{"t":1897,"text":"configuration it allowed for a lot more to be kept as is at the front in particular the fireplace to facilitate"},{"t":1904,"text":"the chimney being restored um in the front area so that was kind of part of the logic as well it's a great question thank you"},{"t":1912,"text":"Thank you. Uh, go ahead, councelor Braithweight."},{"t":1915,"text":"Uh, thank you very much, Mayor. Um, I'm not really sure where I want to start on this. I mean, as you know, I've been I was against moving this building"},{"t":1924,"text":"right from the very beginning. I didn't feel that it was appropriate to be moving this building. And now I see that we're going um even though we were moving forward to move it. Um, we're going now from four units to two units."},{"t":1935,"text":"That's correct. Right. Not three units to two units, four units to two units."},{"t":1938,"text":"Um, and a portion of the original house that is proposed to be demolished is now believed to be original, not an addition because I think in in the beginning it"},{"t":1946,"text":"was assumed that it was an addition, not an original part of the house. Is that correct?"},{"t":1951,"text":"Sorry, I can answer that a little bit, but um, we had a previous heritage consultant who looked at the building and was absolutely positive it was an"},{"t":1960,"text":"addition until we all went under the house and we looked and it's not. It's an it's an original part of the house."},{"t":1967,"text":"We none of us thought it was. It's so different than the portion we're trying to save that it just felt like it was an"},{"t":1974,"text":"addition, but it actually wasn't. You want to add to that?"},{"t":1977,"text":"Yeah. And I was just going to say, yeah, it has been very confusing from the beginning. Um, multiple other consultants as well erroneously thought it was an addition, but if you look at"},{"t":1986,"text":"the uh dimensions of the building and the description of it in 1898 in the newspaper, that was the original length and footprint. But it has been the most"},{"t":1995,"text":"altered and obviously is the one that's it just you know is the strangest part of the building. Hence the confusion from all of those previous consultants as well."},{"t":2003,"text":"Thank you Marin for you. So yeah so um and I know that um as far as the heritage context go we generally discourage removing the original fabric"},{"t":2011,"text":"of a building which we're now doing. Um and we prefer minimal intervention and retention and I know that staff um"},{"t":2018,"text":"basically in their report noted that uh proposal conflicts with some of those guidelines. um the uh so I guess that uh"},{"t":2027,"text":"what what the question is to me is are we comfortable removing a portion of a known um heritage structure and um and I"},{"t":2034,"text":"I I'm for me I'm not um and I'm not really sure how that aligns with the minimal interventional principle um for"},{"t":2042,"text":"the national standards um and I wonder and um perhaps this would be a question"},{"t":2048,"text":"um that I would ask I guess to you and then also would point out to the people around this table is is the interior"},{"t":2057,"text":"designation enough to justify losing part of the building itself. I'm not sure. And would we have supported this if it had come in this format"},{"t":2064,"text":"originally? Would we have supported um this proposal um if it had come like this originally? So, um I guess my"},{"t":2074,"text":"I'd like you to talk a little bit more about the interior designation. And is it enough do you feel as a heritage expert to to justify losing part of the building itself?"},{"t":2083,"text":"For sure. Thank you. It's a very good question. Um and as I say in my letter, I was not happy to be called to site and"},{"t":2091,"text":"to have to go through this process. Um because I felt we'd worked really hard to find a workable solution, Russ and I both. Um but I understood as I dug"},{"t":2099,"text":"deeper into it that this is about giving Anandale a new lease of life. Um it is about I agree in"},{"t":2109,"text":"terms of the original materials but the truth of it is this part of the building has undergone the most amount of change over time. So almost all of the windows"},{"t":2117,"text":"have been replaced. A number of the original materials have already been taken out. Um so as far as a situation"},{"t":2124,"text":"where you need to make a hard choice, it would be very hard and I would not support it if it was as intact as that"},{"t":2131,"text":"front part of the building. But that's not the situation that it's in. And I do feel as Russ reminded me at the end of my other answer, um the winds on the"},{"t":2139,"text":"inside for things like the library um and those the alco ceiling and the glass paneling and the or the wood paneling"},{"t":2146,"text":"with the the leaded glass in the windows. Um that is a huge win and I was heartbroken with the previous proposal"},{"t":2155,"text":"that we were getting rid of those. So, from my perspective, after all the humming and hawing and the many rounds with Mike, u I'm sure he was tired of"},{"t":2163,"text":"hearing from me with my lists of requests. Um, I do feel like we've come to a a workable solution, a a good"},{"t":2171,"text":"compromise and a bad situation because for me, I want Annandale to have this new lease of life for another hundred years to come because I do think it will"},{"t":2178,"text":"be beautiful in the streetscape. Um, but it is it is a hard one to balance. I I understand the concerns, but I do feel like this is a huge win from the"},{"t":2187,"text":"heritage perspective in the sense that, you know, being able to preserve those windows, being able to preserve I uh I included in my letter. I love the"},{"t":2194,"text":"description in 1898 of how you would experience this house. We are now able to keep that so that when people come to visit it is as they would have"},{"t":2202,"text":"experienced it in 1898 with those four rooms at the front. So, yeah. Go ahead."},{"t":2210,"text":"Thank you. Through through you, mayor."},{"t":2211,"text":"So, uh, then is there a version of the project that retains the rear wing, um, but still improves the viability, or would it have have to have stayed in its original positioning and not been moved?"},{"t":2222,"text":"Because I I it's because it's being it's because it has being moved that we're having all of these issues. Is that correct? Or would it have been viable in its original position?"},{"t":2232,"text":"There were always concerns with the rear. Um you'll recall the one the the version that was approved was was a"},{"t":2239,"text":"multiple iteration in um and the rear wing has always been problematic and challenging. Anything you wanted to add?"},{"t":2246,"text":"Yeah, just um I think that it wasn't the fact that we couldn't put that wing back on. That's"},{"t":2255,"text":"not the issue. The issue is that in order to make it a strata, the costs of doing that just get ridiculous. And so,"},{"t":2263,"text":"and the house is so big, like for a single family house to be over 7,000 square feet just seems kind of crazy."},{"t":2269,"text":"Even 5,000 is a huge house, but probably somebody would like a house that size, but 7,000 just seemed"},{"t":2277,"text":"ridiculous to us. And so, the idea was to eliminate the strata in order to keep some of the cost down, maintain more of"},{"t":2285,"text":"the existing house, and lose the portion. What what was the reference that somebody made in one of the writeups about that portion? It was"},{"t":2292,"text":"actually quite amazing when he first assessed it. I did this made me laugh where he says uh additions"},{"t":2300,"text":"badly added. How does it say integrity screwed but in good shape and then design additions and dormers badly"},{"t":2307,"text":"added. So yeah, I mean I I think unfortunately this part of the building has been an issue from the beginning."},{"t":2314,"text":"Go ahead. And uh lastly, just um you talk about it's financially challenging now and I just wonder what kind of a precedent this sets for future HAs. If"},{"t":2322,"text":"if approved projects do become financially challenging and we have to do something like this to it, um does it weaken the integrity of of our HA?"},{"t":2331,"text":"It's a valid concern."},{"t":2333,"text":"Yeah, I I I think so. I don't in this case again like we're we're here asking for this um because it is a real issue"},{"t":2342,"text":"and something that um neither of us were happy about here relantly we also have to you know we have to work with our client who's also"},{"t":2350,"text":"trying to you know hopefully break even with this project and um and I hope that it brings something really great back to"},{"t":2357,"text":"Oak Bay. So that's what we're excited about and still why we're believing in this project. So yeah, from our point of view, it's an unfortunate situation. I hope it doesn't happen very often."},{"t":2370,"text":"Thank you, Councelor Brace. I have councelor Watson in Appleton."},{"t":2373,"text":"Uh thank you very much and um thanks for your presentation. That was really helpful. There's some details in there that and things you added that weren't I don't think in all the materials we had"},{"t":2381,"text":"in front of us so far. I have a question for you and then probably in a related one for staff. In your presentation, you"},{"t":2390,"text":"um identified things that were uncovered as a part of starting the work, the demolition, the move, what have you, that you couldn't have known about"},{"t":2398,"text":"before you did that have led in part to this request. But it sounds to me like some of them were things you would have"},{"t":2406,"text":"known before you did it. For example, the impact that the building code requirements would have on the proposal that you that was part of the initial"},{"t":2414,"text":"approval and the fire code. You mentioned sprinkling and you mentioned windows. So I just wanted to understand to what extent"},{"t":2422,"text":"you you did know those things when the the initial application come came before us with respect to the requirements of stratification."},{"t":2431,"text":"My understanding that again I'm just tell you the best that I to my knowledge that we didn't know much about the fire"},{"t":2438,"text":"problems or the um lack of water pressure that we were going to be dealing with until we were applying for permits and going through that process."},{"t":2446,"text":"I wasn't involved in in that like we they figured that out as they went along and now we've got to a place where I I"},{"t":2454,"text":"believe what they're doing is allowing us to sprinkler the duplex next door and not have to deal with sprinklering Annandale."},{"t":2461,"text":"That's my understanding. But again, that all happened through Mike and and his team. Um we weren't involved in that side of it."},{"t":2470,"text":"So Mr. Miller is available online and maybe I'll put the question to him. Yes, maybe we could we could ask Mr. Miller to respond to that and then I'd like to ask staff a question."},{"t":2478,"text":"Mr. Miller, I see your hand raised indicating you wish to to answer the question. So why don't just if you can just provide your name uh municipality and you can answer the question of councelor Watson."},{"t":2489,"text":"Thank you over through you to councelor Watson. Um firstly I'd like to apologize for not being present. I had to uh un"},{"t":2497,"text":"unforeseen um schedule [clears throat] that conflicted so please accept my apologies but doing my best online. Um uh just to repeat the question if I may"},{"t":2506,"text":"uh uh to do with the known entities versus unknown entities. Okay. Thank you. Um h the the term unfortun"},{"t":2516,"text":"it's an it's exacerbated answer but um specific to that there's a few things that have worked against us. One is code changes that that have become real. So"},{"t":2524,"text":"as code changes it and if this become it's sorry for this to be strat titled it must meet a 10 two five and 10 year"},{"t":2532,"text":"warranty. So things like structural foundations and stuff like that envelope uh it sort of exacerbated through the"},{"t":2540,"text":"through the review which is which is almost invariably done when you go what's called from schematic design development into working drawings. So"},{"t":2548,"text":"that's generally the process. It's a fair question, but and again trying to be not trying to uh weaken weaken the argument, but when you're linear on a on"},{"t":2555,"text":"a process, you can predict as much as you can, but uh mixing those with uh uh a heritage building is a is a is a is an undertaking that is not the most common."},{"t":2566,"text":"I have done uh a lot of uh heritage buildings in the past, albeit not a stratit quite a while. single family"},{"t":2574,"text":"which again defaulting back to the part 9 code versus the part three code was able to unlock some of these costs which"},{"t":2581,"text":"is already uh uh obviously as per the landlift as per staff's request quite burdened. So certainly don't want to"},{"t":2588,"text":"pass the the blame on to anyone. It's just sometimes they're not known and to to Mr. Collins comment, we wouldn't have"},{"t":2595,"text":"known the load uh sorry the uh weakening of the pressure from Oak Bay until after we actually got that which they're not prepared to do that work through"},{"t":2603,"text":"engineering department till after we go through the HR and then subsequent the PLA process which is always handled uh"},{"t":2610,"text":"uh after the HA. In fact, our PLA was applied for uh earlier than the the application went before council for the"},{"t":2618,"text":"HA. However, they were unwilling to do that which is fairly normal course of business because it could be wasted efforts. Um, thank you, Mr."},{"t":2626,"text":"Perhaps I could add any any further. Sorry if if I missing anything. Sure."},{"t":2631,"text":"Uh, and we just have Yeah, go ahead, please."},{"t":2633,"text":"Yeah, and just to add one comment in terms of the sprinklering. I was not told that that would need to or be required and certainly if that had been"},{"t":2640,"text":"raised I would have had concerns to be honest because sprinkling a heritage building particularly one from the 1890s can come with additional concerns and"},{"t":2650,"text":"and potential damage one in terms of both aesthetically but also if there's a breakage in that you can do further damage things like that so it definitely"},{"t":2657,"text":"is something that should be approached cautiously um and be kind of a a method of last resort if I can be honest thank you"},{"t":2665,"text":"Thank you. Thank you for your commentary on that and I just I'd like to turn to staff with the same issue and um hearing what you've heard and knowing your own"},{"t":2673,"text":"part I guess building and planning in the process thus far that brings us to the point of a relication with changes."},{"t":2680,"text":"Is there anything that you um if our processes were different could have prevented this situation? I that's"},{"t":2689,"text":"a lot to ask right on the spot right now, but just reflecting on that, is there anything that we might have anticipated with the initial application"},{"t":2696,"text":"that might have raised um those matters with council before we got to the point for the reest"},{"t":2704,"text":"there were certainly things around the permitting process that weren't learned until we got to that stage. Could that happen earlier? Could could we have done"},{"t":2712,"text":"this a little differently if our procedures were different?"},{"t":2715,"text":"Mr. Green um through your worship to council Watson."},{"t":2723,"text":"Difficult uh question to answer that. Um in relation to when application comes in for a HA we are reviewing that"},{"t":2731,"text":"application in this case. Yeah, we did discourage a subdivision application being submitted if I recall back in 2023."},{"t":2739,"text":"I guess that's mainly because there's no point in the district starting the review of a subdivision application when"},{"t":2746,"text":"that essentially that subdivision cannot take place without that HR H being approved by council and therefore"},{"t":2755,"text":"there's I guess wasted time on behalf of the applicant wasted time on behalf of staff uh sitting on an application for"},{"t":2762,"text":"almost three years that cannot be processed until we know if council is willing to approve a HR application."},{"t":2769,"text":"And so it's only when we think that there's blog readings being given that we generally encourage applicants to then start to start thinking about a"},{"t":2778,"text":"subdivision application that may have some merit and could start to be reviewed. Not sure if Mr. Renick would like to add anything to that comment."},{"t":2786,"text":"Mr. Renick."},{"t":2787,"text":"And I guess I'm particularly thinking about tech. I mean that that that's definitely part of the process, but I'm thinking about technical issues like water pressure, like like sprinkling"},{"t":2795,"text":"like things that our own code review might that might raise."},{"t":2800,"text":"So just to add to that, there was obviously when we received that HOA, there were uh the application was reviewed by our building department, not"},{"t":2807,"text":"necessarily from a code perspective, but more from a building envelope in relation to location of windows on the north elevation in relation to the"},{"t":2815,"text":"adjacent property. And so uh window fenistration and coverage of windows in relation to that elevation was picked up and looked at by building department."},{"t":2826,"text":"Mr. Renick, thank you through the mayor to councelor Watson. [clears throat] Speaking specifically about the water availability and the potential of"},{"t":2834,"text":"sprinklering the building. As the applicant noted, these things do kind of happen in a process of the amount of time that both the applicant is willing"},{"t":2843,"text":"to invest into technical studies as well as the amount of time that it's prudent for staff to spend reviewing them certainly evolves as these applications"},{"t":2851,"text":"go through. Specifically with respect to the fire flow, the amount of fire flow that's needed for a dwelling is based on"},{"t":2858,"text":"a formula um from something called the fire underwriter survey which looks at square footage. It looks at exposure to adjacent buildings, type of"},{"t":2867,"text":"construction, whether or not the building is sprinklered, and that ultimately comes up with a recommended fire flow. Certainly, it was foreseeable"},{"t":2876,"text":"early in the process based on the sizes of the water manes on York Place that fire flow would be challenging."},{"t":2883,"text":"Ultimately, sprinklering the building. I I mean, I understand the comments from the heritage consultant. Sprinklering the building does tend to be the default"},{"t":2891,"text":"answer when there's inadequate fire flow because as soon as you put sprinklers into a building, it lowers that"},{"t":2898,"text":"requirement. So I is it conceivable that early on in the process it could have been identified that hey there's not a"},{"t":2905,"text":"lot of fire flow here? Yes. But I I think that when that determination came that one solution was sprinklers, I"},{"t":2913,"text":"think that came in the time and the process that that made sense in the procedure to come to that conclusion. Thank you, Mr. Ra. Go ahead, Council."},{"t":2921,"text":"Thank you, staff. It's helpful to have those reflections, I think, and thanks for taking the question. Um, one final question. This is really um addressed to"},{"t":2928,"text":"the applicant. Um it is it is uh the proposal does lead to a loss of a couple of units that I know we were eagerly"},{"t":2936,"text":"anticipating and I am concerned that the remaining unit the home is so large that it might be hard to market and I just"},{"t":2943,"text":"wonder if you or your even your your economist that's online right now could comment on that because I am concerned"},{"t":2951,"text":"about that that we end up with one very large home that really may not have a buyer."},{"t":2959,"text":"Mr. Collins, do you want me to give that to Mr. Miller or Probably a good idea. Sure. Go ahead, Mr. Miller."},{"t":2965,"text":"Um through through your your worship. Um uh you know, it's it's it's often"},{"t":2974,"text":"intuitive to think that more density and more revenue drives a more profitable project. It it was over about 15 months"},{"t":2984,"text":"ago, I believe, since this project was was endorsed uh through council through a long iterative process. Uh one that was on balance, hopefully win-win for"},{"t":2992,"text":"both parties. Um very no short of significant things have happened. And in"},{"t":2999,"text":"this particular case, it's spend hopefully less, lose less. So while the housing units is is not to be taken"},{"t":3007,"text":"lightly, um I completely understand. Um what I'm trying to balance is is not just economic realities because that's"},{"t":3016,"text":"that's my my challenge my concern uh is the is uh delivering the heritage"},{"t":3023,"text":"component of this project in its its entirety. So all other aspects of the previous HR as I think possibly noted in"},{"t":3031,"text":"the in the application are still intact and that when I when I started having significant challenges so normally a house move wouldn't take this long again"},{"t":3039,"text":"a lot of structural challenges that we're dealing with which is part and parcel probably to do with the deterioration of the of the structure over a number of years and and honestly"},{"t":3048,"text":"to be totally candid not its upkeep that that certainly reflects part of it. Um, when I came and"},{"t":3055,"text":"saw uh Russ and Katie, it was by no means an easy conversation for anyone, including myself. And I wasn't and"},{"t":3063,"text":"sorry, and to back this up, I actually came and saw um Mr. Green first and asked his advice, not on the application"},{"t":3071,"text":"changes as a whole, more like what what could be done. So, I actually came and saw Mr. Green. We walked the property and I just started to share some of my"},{"t":3078,"text":"challenges that to be quite frank, I have not had in 30 years. And this is not making excuses nor nor lack of foreshadowing or past past blame or responsibility."},{"t":3089,"text":"Um it's just it's just some really this is some really challenging and then and then of course exacerbated with current market conditions again the riskreward"},{"t":3097,"text":"of being a market developer but still realities of the day and what I'm really trying to do as as I effectively"},{"t":3105,"text":"renegotiated first through Katie which was the toughest stage gate in no in no short uh in no short description. She"},{"t":3113,"text":"really lobbied a lot of the heritage components and adding more more homes, not not gross sellable square footage to the to the building. Uh affected what"},{"t":3122,"text":"Katie wanted too, which was the the the four rooms designation, the chimney, the g the dormers, the the the the gables,"},{"t":3129,"text":"things like that, and m maintaining the front integrity of of the public realm."},{"t":3134,"text":"As far as the size of the home, you're you're not you're not mistaken. there's still a risk that the home when com we have we have the economics to complete"},{"t":3142,"text":"as presented and that that I feel very comfortable in saying the revenue at the end will be my risk and I accept that risk and uh and just really want to"},{"t":3151,"text":"commit to the public interface of the heritage building as sort of presented this evening again cap cap cap in hand I"},{"t":3159,"text":"understand the situation it's never happened before thank you very much that's everything for me thank you go ahead councelor Appleton thank you worship through you. I think"},{"t":3167,"text":"this is probably questions for staff, but just to understand kind of what the next what the next steps might be. And I'm not presupposing what the applicant"},{"t":3175,"text":"would do. And I appreciate the applicant is, you know, coming forward in in good faith to present an alternative proposal and really does want to make this thing"},{"t":3183,"text":"move forward. But just in terms of if uh it was not council's wish to support the project in its current form um I guess"},{"t":3194,"text":"at some point can the HR be dis voluntarily withdrawn or discharged"},{"t":3200,"text":"and then at that point uh at what point will you know could the properties in"},{"t":3207,"text":"this case the two res the two addresses revert back to their previous the the subdivision associated with the HA would then itself be extinguished. And then"},{"t":3216,"text":"what uh effect does a designation have on the home in terms of potentially choosing to not retain the house long term?"},{"t":3226,"text":"Mr. Green, uh for your worship to council, I'll try and answer that question. Um"},{"t":3234,"text":"so the obviously the subdivision has been completed. So the HA facility that subdivision that subdivision has taken"},{"t":3240,"text":"place the lot was then yeah essentially is now into four lots. Uh the property is still designated by by law. Um"},{"t":3250,"text":"obviously the H does have an expire term but that is not until yeah quite uh for the foreseeable future. And so I guess"},{"t":3259,"text":"it depends if council doesn't agree to these changes and that HRA is still in place. uh then yeah I'm not sure what"},{"t":3269,"text":"the the outcome of that would be. I guess the HA would be in place. I'm not sure that there's a way for the"},{"t":3275,"text":"applicant not to proceed with that HA in its current form without changes to it. It's a designated property by by law."},{"t":3284,"text":"That property that house was designated by by law in 1997."},{"t":3288,"text":"Um yeah, I'm not sure that um if if council doesn't want to see these changes or wants to try and uh retain"},{"t":3298,"text":"the existing H, then we would probably need to report back to council with some of the implications of that at a later date."},{"t":3310,"text":"Thank you. I don't have anybody else in my speakers for first time speakers."},{"t":3314,"text":"Uh yeah, go ahead Mr. Miller if you wish."},{"t":3317,"text":"Thank you. Thank you uh sir uh through your worship to councelor Appleton uh just want to add to Mr. Green's comments"},{"t":3325,"text":"there is so first and foremost I'm not blocking him from this from this commitment I'm going to find a way through this application and this is not to uh bait and switch the conversation"},{"t":3334,"text":"I'm committed to seeing this through but notwithstanding that there is legal mechanisms within the HR and again I don't want to put Mr. agree on the spot"},{"t":3342,"text":"that sort of protects the district's interests through an H. And I'm again, it's kind of like I'll defer it to a partnership agreement in business. You"},{"t":3349,"text":"generally don't look at it and remember everything within it unless there's a problem. But I I do recall vaguely that there's mechanisms within the district"},{"t":3358,"text":"uh actions that can force certain uh certain um requirements and then the the risk falls back onto me um as the person"},{"t":3368,"text":"that signed the HA. Again, that is no way, shape, or form what default plan I'm I'm proposing. I want to see this through. This is effectively an effort"},{"t":3375,"text":"of many variables over the last year and a bit. Um uh and trying to find a way that's still hopefully on balance uh"},{"t":3384,"text":"gives the heritage community at least in this particular lot still the the feeling of a win with all the things"},{"t":3391,"text":"that have that have come to light and and no less than of course the market being one of them but but primarily the things have come to light through the through the application. Again, just to"},{"t":3400,"text":"remind uh council, the other components, including the housing agreement that's in place on the duplex uh and and the"},{"t":3408,"text":"other uh restrictions as a whole are all still in place and and not up for not up for discussion whatsoever."},{"t":3415,"text":"Thank you. Going to the first time speakers Patterson and then Dr. Smart."},{"t":3419,"text":"Yes. Thank you, Mayor and um through to staff. I mean, I have right from the start I did express concerns about this"},{"t":3429,"text":"uh the building simply the conditions, the age and whatnot. But I do note in the staff report it does say that the"},{"t":3436,"text":"heritage commission reviewed the application on April 1st and passed the motion that the that recommendation"},{"t":3445,"text":"that we approve this. So just to clarify then what the Heritage Commission saw on April 1st contained all of the elements"},{"t":3454,"text":"that is being presented to council tonight. Is that correct?"},{"t":3460,"text":"For your worship to council pass. Yeah, that is correct. Yes, the uh heritage commission unanimously approved the application had very few comments and um"},{"t":3469,"text":"supported the obligation to be approved by council."},{"t":3474,"text":"Go ahead councelor Patterson. So, just as a followup to that, and I unfortunately I I didn't see the um the"},{"t":3481,"text":"meeting as it was taking place, but the uh heritage commission obviously considered that that what was being"},{"t":3490,"text":"presented still had relevant heritage value to the community worthy of uh"},{"t":3498,"text":"protecting versus um trying to I'm not sure how you would collapse an HR, But"},{"t":3505,"text":"the the the heritage commission saw merit in in the recommended changes, the chimneys, the the in the interior um and"},{"t":3515,"text":"and saw saw the continued value of a revitalized Anendale to the community."},{"t":3524,"text":"Mr. Green, [snorts] uh through your worship, yes, I would say so. Obviously, Council Green was the council leazison for that meeting. May I"},{"t":3531,"text":"also have something to add to that? I have her next on the speaking list so we can take her thoughts."},{"t":3537,"text":"That's it. Okay. Go ahead, Council Green."},{"t":3541,"text":"I'm just going to go to first time speakers first, then we'll go to second time speakers. Um, thank you very much. Thank you, Mr."},{"t":3547,"text":"Green for the report. Um, I will say first of all that this commission had a very thoughtful, productive um,"},{"t":3554,"text":"discussion based on the presentation from Mr. Collins and Miss CR. Um, there were a lot of questions, there were concerns raised. Um but I have to say"},{"t":3563,"text":"it's one of the best uh heritage commission meetings I have attended in a long time and that's only because I haven't been there in a long time but um I was a former chair of the commission."},{"t":3573,"text":"and I belong to the commission and um I was impressed with the level of of discussion and consideration and it was"},{"t":3580,"text":"felt uh at that meeting that while there were concerns always um I think the feeling was that sometimes in these"},{"t":3589,"text":"matters particularly with heritage and miss would be the expert in this. There are concessions that have to be made and"},{"t":3595,"text":"particularly through an HA. So this was considered a concession, but the bigger goal, the larger um uh vision was to"},{"t":3606,"text":"restore Anenddale and so the commission fully supported this um amendment um and and not without concerns and they"},{"t":3613,"text":"expressed those but I would say there was a very strong commitment."},{"t":3619,"text":"Thank you councelor Green. I have one question that'll go to councelor Smart for a second time. Um and this is through to the applicant. Um I"},{"t":3626,"text":"appreciate all of the case made here for changes. Um the one thing that's not entirely clear from the drawings is um"},{"t":3634,"text":"in as I recall there's many discussions on this. We looked at rotating it multiple different ways. We we tried different aspects. At the end of the day"},{"t":3641,"text":"we ended up where it was. Um and but I'm curious about is with this removal of the rear wing. Um, you know, one of the"},{"t":3651,"text":"original concerns was the loss of some of the Gary Oaks and and the sort of the the sort of the setback from the street."},{"t":3656,"text":"Is does the revised application change the setback or is it I'm just curious about where that's sitting right now in the application."},{"t":3664,"text":"My understanding is they've already excavated and um I'm not sure, but we can ask Mr. Miller if they've actually"},{"t":3672,"text":"poured foundations. I'm not sure, but um I haven't been up there recently, so I don't know."},{"t":3679,"text":"I can ask Mr. Miller. I'll turn it to question, please."},{"t":3681,"text":"Uh Mr. Miller, thank thank you, your worship. Uh the setback uh is already um in exactly the same spot as it was previously approved."},{"t":3692,"text":"Uh and there is no foundation report on site. We're kind of struggling with a bit of a standstill at this time. But uh to answer your question explicitly, the"},{"t":3701,"text":"front elevation, sorry, the front yard setback is exactly the same as previously approved as is the all other setbacks."},{"t":3708,"text":"Okay. Thank you. Can I ask the question just not sure this is going to be a condition, but I am curious uh really probably to Mr. Miller, but Mr. Collins"},{"t":3717,"text":"might answer this as well. Is or maybe even the heritage uh consultant. It it seems to me that there'd be some value in moving it back a little bit from the"},{"t":3725,"text":"street. Um, but I'm curious uh if that's uh your thoughts on that uh about the merits of it from a heritage perspective"},{"t":3734,"text":"um but also uh its viability and and uh to the building itself. Um maybe I'll ask the heritage question first."},{"t":3742,"text":"Sure. Thank you so much your worship. Um it's a good question. Uh we had not really discussed the setback. Um, and"},{"t":3750,"text":"forgive me in the sense that I believe it has so it has been moved multiple times and it always makes me a little"},{"t":3759,"text":"bit hesitant to be encouraging any further. You know, every time you move it, there's potential for more damage."},{"t":3765,"text":"Um, which is ultimately why I didn't fight for that aspect. Um, I was on site a week or so ago. Uh, the foundation's"},{"t":3774,"text":"not been poured. Um but it is largely I believe where it's supposed to be once we figure out what's happening. So um I"},{"t":3782,"text":"think it is a valid question but I just caution in terms of the the continued impact to the heritage building um to the the house as it is right now."},{"t":3790,"text":"I'll ask that to Mr. Miller."},{"t":3792,"text":"Yeah I'll over to you Mr. Miller just I think I heard that the building is on its location at the moment."},{"t":3798,"text":"Thank you. Thank you worship. uh sort of it's it's close to its it's its resting place with respect to foundation. It's"},{"t":3807,"text":"it's um due to the size and the and the and the torquing that's been happening."},{"t":3811,"text":"We had to bring in a geotech uh recently. So it's actually not that it's it's close. It's probably 5 ft away but offaxis right now uh where it currently"},{"t":3820,"text":"sits. So to answer your question um probably a couple feet would be would be doable um to be to be totally honest."},{"t":3829,"text":"That being said, if it goes more than say two feet, probably a couple two things will happen. One is the geometry for the parking turnaround, which must"},{"t":3836,"text":"meet uh the schedule transportation schedule uh in in obey to turn around and and pull in and then drive out. That could be at risk. I would turn that over"},{"t":3845,"text":"to Mr. Collins. But the other uh issue would be which which is not not um not impossible is we'd have to probably move"},{"t":3853,"text":"the building back over to the to the to the south in an effort to re-exavate to move back to the rear because we've"},{"t":3862,"text":"kind of when you do an excavation you usually do an over excavation by about 3 ft plus or minus. So that that's why I came back to the two feet. can usually"},{"t":3870,"text":"go down as tight as one foot and build a zero a what's called a blind wall and you can work with that but once you go more than"},{"t":3877,"text":"about two feet now you're kind of dealing with another excavation repinning and stuff like that so if it was deemed benefit to to I don't want to put KD on"},{"t":3885,"text":"the spot or Mr. council, but it was deemed a real benefit to council."},{"t":3888,"text":"Certainly two feet would be probably manageable, but much more than that would probably be setting a draft a whole new process of re removing"},{"t":3896,"text":"removing the house, re relocating the house for excavation purposes."},{"t":3900,"text":"Thank you for that. Hope that answers your question, sir."},{"t":3902,"text":"No, that's great. Thank you. Go ahead counc I guess from staff's perspective in"},{"t":3908,"text":"relation to if the building was pushed back, there will be no changes to or implications in relation to trees. I"},{"t":3916,"text":"guess from staff's perspective, we would prefer the building to be more closer to the streetscape. Given that one of the issues that came up in the past was about trying to give Amundale House more"},{"t":3925,"text":"prominence within the streetscape and so as you drive up your place, uh this would lend itself to having more prominence on the street and wouldn't be"},{"t":3932,"text":"as would easily be seen as opposed to hidden by the proposed new duplexes to the south. Thank you. Uh great councelor SM."},{"t":3941,"text":"Uh thank you. Um through Mayor, um one additional question probably to Mr."},{"t":3945,"text":"Collins. Um I just wanted to to know in the progression of moving to a single"},{"t":3951,"text":"family home with a suite. Um why the choice to make such a small suite from both a li livability perspective? It"},{"t":3958,"text":"looks like it's around 250 square ft. Um and also from the perspective of a mortgage helper for such a big house. Um just wondered if you could speak to the"},{"t":3967,"text":"size of the suite and whether you looked at expanding it to cover like the mudroom and washroom there. Um and then the other sort of partner question to"},{"t":3975,"text":"that is did you look at possibly putting an ADU over the garage or was that complicated with the resultant um setbacks in parking turnaround radiuses?"},{"t":3984,"text":"Thank you."},{"t":3985,"text":"Dr. Collins, I guess probably a better question for Mr. Miller to answer, but um yeah, I guess he decided on the size"},{"t":3994,"text":"of suite. My feeling about it is that the type of house that we're going to end up with here is probably someone who"},{"t":4001,"text":"doesn't really want a mortgage helper. I think it's more of a um guest accommodation, possibly a um you know,"},{"t":4009,"text":"one of their teenagers going to university or something like that. But I highly doubt they're going to be looking for extra income. It's going to be a very expensive home to own. So I don't"},{"t":4017,"text":"see that as something they're going to be looking for. But if Mr. Miller wants to add something to that."},{"t":4024,"text":"Miller, do you want to just address the the why behind the uh the size of the suite? Please go ahead."},{"t":4033,"text":"Mr. Miller, please go ahead. Oh, you're muted. Sorry. There you go."},{"t":4039,"text":"My apologies uh through your throughhship to councelor Smart. Um uh I'll go to the easier one uh with the garage. Actually,"},{"t":4047,"text":"we actually looked at that exact we looked at in uh integrating some of the uh elements from the uh wing, if Katie"},{"t":4055,"text":"remembers this, into the garage. Uh it was quite it felt quite contorted and uh Russ felt a little bit apprehensive to"},{"t":4063,"text":"to do this exercise because he had an intuition it wouldn't work out very well. That being said, we we did the exercise and it didn't work out uh at"},{"t":4071,"text":"all. Plus, what it did do is it drove, if I'm not mistaken, and pro perhaps um uh dire or sorry, perhaps Mr. Green can"},{"t":4080,"text":"answer this, it drove a bylaw uh impact because right now we're not asking for any variances or any any um I I know"},{"t":4087,"text":"it's an H discussion, but it's actually doesn't impact the bylaw to the best of my knowledge, whereas building a suite above the garage does drive an impact to"},{"t":4094,"text":"the bylaw, which would be which would be a reasonzoning or development variance permit. And to be quite candid, we just"},{"t":4101,"text":"want to do what we can to get back this thing on track. Uh that hopefully has council's endorsement. So that I believe triggered that one thing. So we did look"},{"t":4109,"text":"at that option for the garage. The the earlier question was to do with the suite size. Um again, keeping once you"},{"t":4116,"text":"kind of work backwards uh with the with the large rooms and and and uh and the and the staircase, you end up with a residual balance. Uh and we did look at"},{"t":4125,"text":"actually extending that into the mudroom. then we were unable to achieve a mudroom which was the deciding factor to the the type of home. I see this as a"},{"t":4134,"text":"as a as a as a as a as a a great suite for for a for a a student that could be and I I found this a lot actually. I've"},{"t":4143,"text":"studied the market pretty closely. A student that lives um uh I can't remember what it's called but like comes from from abroad and stays with you for"},{"t":4150,"text":"a period of time and and uh uh uh Opair I believe there's a lot of that that I do see in the market as well. It's it's a great caregiver suite for somebody"},{"t":4159,"text":"that does age in place. And again, it's really hard when you're speculating a lot of things and especially in a market where speculation isn't seems to be jing"},{"t":4166,"text":"too too well these days. But that's kind of how I see this Opair uh student, you know, and so mortgage helper definitely"},{"t":4174,"text":"not, but to have people nearby is also there's a lot of people that see see val value in that and also do like to be a part of the of the um of the student"},{"t":4183,"text":"population in UX. So I do see that as a potential. That's why it's sort of self-contained. I see it as actually interacting with with the with the home"},{"t":4190,"text":"is actually my but but it it certainly wouldn't desecrate the plan to add the mud room back in. It was just we kind of thought on balance a little mud room for"},{"t":4199,"text":"for for a a dirty space for probably more likely kids and such in the backyard we thought would be would be"},{"t":4206,"text":"okay. Hope that answers your question mark."},{"t":4209,"text":"Okay. Thank you. I don't have any other questions. So I think at this point I'm going to suggest that uh we put a uh motion on the floor as a recommendation"},{"t":4217,"text":"here. Probably best to put the positive recommend uh motion on the floor and then we can have a debate about it."},{"t":4222,"text":"Councelor Green move the staff recommendation. I'll move option number one. Excuse me. Do you want me to read it aloud?"},{"t":4230,"text":"No, it's that direct direct staff to prepare an amendment bylaw. So yes. Thank you. Seconded."},{"t":4237,"text":"um discussion."},{"t":4240,"text":"the mover, do you want to motivate or are you?"},{"t":4244,"text":"Um, well, I appreciate the consideration that was given um at the council at the sorry, at the commission table on um"},{"t":4251,"text":"April the 1st and um as I said, it was a very thoughtful discussion uh with a lot of questions and concerns, but I think"},{"t":4260,"text":"people felt that this was not an unreasonable request and that at the end of the day, we would retain a very important landmark in Oak Bay. Um and so"},{"t":4269,"text":"that was I think that the the support um the majority of members voted to approve on that basis and Mr. Collins and Miss"},{"t":4278,"text":"CR were very helpful in explaining some of the concerns many of which were mentioned here at this table. So um"},{"t":4285,"text":"that's why I I'm I I feel confidence in supporting the motion. Um and I do trust the commission in terms of its its um its conclusions. Thank you."},{"t":4297,"text":"Any other discussion? Go ahead, Councelor Smart."},{"t":4300,"text":"Yeah, thank you. Um, renovations are complicated and heritage renovations are even more complicated and I really"},{"t":4307,"text":"appreciate um how thoughtful um the applicant has been at at coming back and bringing as much um to the project as"},{"t":4314,"text":"they can. And so I, you know, with the confidence of the um Heritage Commission um mo motion, I I feel that this project"},{"t":4323,"text":"is highly supportable and I'm just glad to see it um still going ahead. Councelor Braithweight."},{"t":4330,"text":"Uh thank you, Mayor. Um yeah, I appreciate um that that both of you have really strong feelings and regrets um for having to make these changes. I do"},{"t":4337,"text":"appreciate that. Um however, I do still have concerns um with this application."},{"t":4342,"text":"It could come as no surprise that um my stance on this has always all the way along been to um vote against um the"},{"t":4350,"text":"motions. Um so while I understand the challenges that the applicant has faced, this rep uh amendment really represents"},{"t":4357,"text":"both a loss of original heritage fabric and a reduction in housing units from what was previously approved. In this case, the rear ring is ne the rear wing"},{"t":4365,"text":"is now understood to be part of the original structure and its removal runs counter to the principle of conserving character defining elements and at the"},{"t":4373,"text":"same time we're moving from four units to two and now we hear that that might not even be a rental unit. So really we're going from four units to one um"},{"t":4382,"text":"which reduces the public benefit that formed part of the original HR. So for me this uh really raises a broader concern about the integrity integrity of"},{"t":4391,"text":"the um HA process. These agreements are negotiated with a balance of benefits and when that balance shifts significantly I think we need to be cautious about resetting expectations."},{"t":4401,"text":"So at this point I'm not convinced that the trade-offs being proposed achieve the intent of either strong heritage conservation or meaning meaningful"},{"t":4409,"text":"housing outcomes. And I also do think that the house should be moved back on the lot um to get a better um view from the road. Um and I think it would make"},{"t":4417,"text":"the house look even better um being that that that much removed. Um so really for me on balance um I feel that we're"},{"t":4425,"text":"giving up too much and we're getting little in return. So again, I'll be voting against the motion. Thank you."},{"t":4432,"text":"Thank you, Councelor Braithweight. Go ahead, Councelor Patterson."},{"t":4436,"text":"Yes. Thank you, Mayor. and appreciate councelor Braithweight's comments and it would be wonderful if every HR um could"},{"t":4444,"text":"be completed exactly as envisioned. But these contracts are a bit of a leap of faith. And the only way to um to"},{"t":4453,"text":"determine exactly what can take place is to to do exactly what the applicant has done and that is start um dismantling"},{"t":4461,"text":"the building and then you have a better idea of of what is possible and what isn't possible. But certainly it's a"},{"t":4470,"text":"project that I've it's part of my walking route. So I've been watching it daily and I see where the placement is."},{"t":4476,"text":"I see what has been done. I can certainly see uh the components of the structure itself and uh I will support"},{"t":4484,"text":"it going forward and I guess the caveat is that as I look at the building and I"},{"t":4491,"text":"I would hate to see it moved again. I think that it needs to be placed expeditiously"},{"t":4499,"text":"um and as soon as possible and hopefully then the building contained prior to the"},{"t":4507,"text":"next rainy season. So, um I I I wouldn't want to see it delayed and I do um I do"},{"t":4514,"text":"respect the opinion of the Heritage Commission on this and councelor Green's um comments that it was a very"},{"t":4522,"text":"thoroughly reviewed application as it came back. So, with that, I support it."},{"t":4530,"text":"Trust Watson."},{"t":4532,"text":"Thank you, Mayor. And I'll be joining the votes in support of the recommendation on the floor. I think um there, you know, I won't repeat the"},{"t":4540,"text":"comments made by councelor Smart or councelor Patterson. I I agree with him."},{"t":4544,"text":"Um I I think there's been a significant investment to date in this project over many years and we um should continue to"},{"t":4552,"text":"move forward because although we are going to lose and I know councelor Smart feels this deeply with me, we're going to use lose some benefits with respect"},{"t":4559,"text":"to housing, the trade-off is retention of principal rooms in this really important home. A lot of work has been done and things have been discovered and"},{"t":4568,"text":"I think we just need to move all move forward in good faith. I really appreciated the detail of the presentation and the argument for the changes and I am satisfied that this is"},{"t":4577,"text":"the right thing to do at this point in time. Dr. Hamilton."},{"t":4582,"text":"Uh thank you worship. So, speaking in favor, I just I won't again I won't repeat some of the comments and I do concur with most of that and I'm I'm"},{"t":4589,"text":"very uh heartened and and really appreciate councelor Green's comments about the comments that were brought at the uh at the uh heritage commission."},{"t":4596,"text":"So, that is that is significant. Um I think there are two things that for the public's benefit that should be understood through a process like this is not ideal. The outcome is not uh the"},{"t":4606,"text":"ideal one that anybody would want. But what it underscores for me is both uh the when we talk about heritage preservation, it's important for you"},{"t":4614,"text":"know the public to understand the the complexity and the cost associated with doing these types of projects. We want to see that outcome but these are not"},{"t":4622,"text":"easily undertaken and I think what this shows is some of the you know the many many complexities that can arise during the course of those those uh those uh"},{"t":4632,"text":"projects. So that I think is really important to underline. The second one is I think this building in particular for me really underscores the importance"},{"t":4639,"text":"of being uh proactive in uh working with land owners to engage in HAS and other"},{"t":4647,"text":"projects of this nature to uh enhance and preserve the buildings in a timely fashion. What is clear to me with this"},{"t":4654,"text":"particular property is it's you know obviously one of the more significant ones in Oak Bay. uh the design it has been designated for some time but the"},{"t":4662,"text":"designation itself was not adequate to prevent its decline and what we see now is uh the the the result of many years"},{"t":4671,"text":"of decline. Uh and here we here we find ourselves. So I think that underscores the the need for council to when"},{"t":4679,"text":"presented with HAS and these types of projects to act proactively such that uh buildings do not deteriorate to the"},{"t":4687,"text":"point that your options are more limited. Certainly that has become clear to me. Thank you worship."},{"t":4694,"text":"Thank you councelor Appleton. Um people have spoken in favor. I I'm in support of the application. Um, I think for me"},{"t":4701,"text":"the uh the net of the heritage aspects is is positive. I I think I share all of"},{"t":4708,"text":"Miss CR's feelings about the uh uh about the the fight to keep what is good about this and and so much of it is was"},{"t":4716,"text":"originally tied to the the cultural use of the building at the time. And I think it's very nice to be able to retain that"},{"t":4723,"text":"uh that feel um hardest to retain in many ways of these heritage buildings."},{"t":4728,"text":"Um, and I guess you know in terms of the loss of the of the of the housing, I think we have to take that very seriously. I do just reflect that this"},{"t":4737,"text":"was a a fairly complicated HR that involved in a multi multi- site subdivision. Uh, ultimately there was a site that had a garage that is now going"},{"t":4746,"text":"to have a home. Uh, there was another lot that has a duplex with a with suites. Uh, and there's now a home with a suite. So, we were originally"},{"t":4754,"text":"intending to go from one house to nine and now we're going from one house to seven. So, it's not there's still a significant increase in in the total"},{"t":4761,"text":"number of houses on the lot. Um, which to my mind uh um makes it makes it supportable. Uh and I think really"},{"t":4769,"text":"importantly um the sort of the broader cultural uh meaning of this house with his ties to the fathers of confederation"},{"t":4775,"text":"and the other pieces um uh uh I think make the the the the trade-off of the of the extension versus the interior uh"},{"t":4784,"text":"facilities uh to my mind uh make up for that. So um I'll leave it there. Any other discussion before I ask to call"},{"t":4792,"text":"the question? Seeing none, all those in favor and those opposed. Council of Braithweight opposed. Um the other question here was just say council we"},{"t":4801,"text":"have the requirement to hold a public hearing. This is a modification to an existing HR. It's within our power to do so. Um perhaps we'll put that on the"},{"t":4808,"text":"floor and have a quick discussion on that."},{"t":4811,"text":"Moved seconded. Thank you. Um is there a discussion on that? Councelor Brie."},{"t":4817,"text":"I I do think that there should be another um public hearing on this. So I'll be voting against the motion. Okay. Thank you. Any other discussion?"},{"t":4828,"text":"This is an interesting shift that we've had, but uh I do feel like we had a very robust discussion with this with the community um on this the last time"},{"t":4836,"text":"around and and again I'm reasonably comfortable with what we've heard on this. Uh I I mean the primary aspect here is a loss of two housing units. Um"},{"t":4845,"text":"and I think we can weigh the pros and cons of that at this table. Um, that being said, I tend to prefer to think it's going to public hearing if at all possible, but I think in this case, I'm"},{"t":4853,"text":"supportive of the motion. Any other discussion? All right, seeing none, all those in favor? Any oppose? Council braid opposed. That carries. That"},{"t":4862,"text":"concludes good luck with the project to all of you. And uh with the taste of the complexity of that"},{"t":4870,"text":"heritage revitalization agreement in our mouths uh we're going to move to the next uh item on the agenda which is item 7.3. Uh this is again a heritage"},{"t":4880,"text":"revitalization agreement with an official community plan amendment and development permit. So with that I'm for 9 sorry for the clarity of everybody in"},{"t":4888,"text":"the room 960 Fowl Bay Road. Um, as I noted at the beginning of this meeting, but in case anybody didn't catch that,"},{"t":4895,"text":"uh, this item, uh, tonight will not have public input. Uh, if council wishes to advance it, uh, it will be subject to,"},{"t":4903,"text":"uh, a public hearing. Um, but at this point, we're really the first time council's had a chance to see the application, and we are going to, uh,"},{"t":4912,"text":"have an opportunity to give some direction. Um, we certainly welcome everybody in the room to be here. Um, and with that, I'll hand it over to Mr. Green."},{"t":4920,"text":"Thank you, worship."},{"t":4922,"text":"The district has received an official community plan heritage revitalization agreement and a development permit application for the property located at"},{"t":4930,"text":"960 Faray Bay Road. The purpose of the applications are to change the land use designation from residential to Teran House residential. allowed the"},{"t":4939,"text":"revitalization of the histo existing historic house on the property into eight dwelling units and formally heritage designate the property in"},{"t":4948,"text":"exchange for the development of 16 new townhouse units through a heritage revitalization agreement application and the development permit application to"},{"t":4956,"text":"guide the form and character of the proposed town houses as part of the concurrent processing of the OCP HA and DP applications the proposal was"},{"t":4965,"text":"presented to council's commissions and who provided the following motion to council. On March the 18th of this year, the advisory planning commission"},{"t":4973,"text":"reviewed the OCP amendment application and recommended approval of the application."},{"t":4978,"text":"On April the 1st of this year, the HA was presented to the Heritage Commission and the commission recommended the application be approved with the following considerations."},{"t":4986,"text":"That the height of the additional buildings on the lot be no higher than the Lawson residence. that the number of units in terms of the town homes uh"},{"t":4994,"text":"townhouse development be reduced from 16 to a maximum of 12 and additional green space be considered around the heritage"},{"t":5001,"text":"home. Most recently on April the 14th of this year the DP was presented to the advisory design panel and the panel recommending that the application be"},{"t":5009,"text":"approved with the following considerations."},{"t":5012,"text":"Incorporate wheelchair access and access and accessible units in the Lawson residence. reduce parking on site to"},{"t":5019,"text":"reduce the amount of of impermanal service within the overall development."},{"t":5023,"text":"The applicants and their consultants are here this evening and would like to provide an overview of the application and happy to answer any questions that council may have on the application."},{"t":5033,"text":"Uh thank you very much Mr. Green. Uh welcome. Uh same process is for everybody. Just state your name for the record and municipality of residence or"},{"t":5041,"text":"business and then uh you're welcome to provide your presentation."},{"t":5045,"text":"Oh. Oh. Can you push the button in the middle of the microphone to turn it on? There we go. Thank you."},{"t":5049,"text":"Okay. Thank you. My name is Jennifer Travelby and I live in Op. Uh, good evening your worship and members of council. My name is Jennifer Travelby"},{"t":5057,"text":"and I am the owner and developer of 960 Fay Road. I thank you for the opportunity to present to you a proposal that represents the culmination of many"},{"t":5066,"text":"years of consultation, detailed design, and feasibility work centered on the long-term protection and restoration of the Lawson residents."},{"t":5074,"text":"This evening, I'm joined by my colleagues, Keith Tetllo, our project art architect, Russ Collins of Zebra Design, and Katie CR, the project's heritage consultant."},{"t":5088,"text":"We've prepared an in-depth presentation discussing the merits and important aspects of the proposal for your consideration and look forward to hearing your feedback as well as answering any questions you may have."},{"t":5098,"text":"Our goal this evening is to demonstrate that this project delivers a strong and enduring conservation outcome supported through a heritage revitalization"},{"t":5106,"text":"agreement while delivering diverse new housing choices within our community."},{"t":5112,"text":"With a site of this scale in such a unique location and with a valuable heritage asset, we have a rare opportunity to deliver something far"},{"t":5120,"text":"better than the provinially imposed SSMU."},{"t":5123,"text":"To start, I would like to make mention of our entirely local project team, which includes the three individuals I just introduced, as well as the team of professionals highlighted on the slide."},{"t":5139,"text":"Given the home at 965 Bay is not designated and not on the heritage registry, we have a unique opportunity not just to protect it, but to"},{"t":5147,"text":"reinvigorate it and the surrounding property for new families and for centuries to come. Along with heritage designation, the home would be"},{"t":5155,"text":"completely revitalized, creating eight new single- level homes with elevator access, providing diverse choices for downsizers, those that wish to age in"},{"t":5164,"text":"place, and individuals who may have mobility needs. Further, town homes with private yard spaces are designed to welcome new families or those wishing to"},{"t":5172,"text":"rightsize from their existing home into something more manageable with the ease of lock and go."},{"t":5186,"text":"And in order to support climate goals and prevent urban sprawl, new housing should be focused within a short distance of services, amenities, and transit in support of active"},{"t":5194,"text":"transportation and reduce car dependence, thereby creating more complete, livable neighborhoods within our existing community. This proposal"},{"t":5202,"text":"accomplishes just that. Located on the Centennial Trail, directly on key transit routes, steps to Oak Bay Village, and close to schools, parks, employment, and recreation."},{"t":5214,"text":"In addition, the site borders the city of Victoria, where properties to the west have already been upzoned to what is called the priority growth area under"},{"t":5221,"text":"Victoria's latest OCP, thereby allowing buildings up to six stories and a floor area ratio of 1.6 6 to1 without a"},{"t":5229,"text":"resoning or OCP amendment. Even greater density is already allowed with bonuses for projects that include rental or affordable units."},{"t":5241,"text":"In terms of its historical value, 96 Fay Road is closely tied to the early development of Oak Bay. The home was"},{"t":5248,"text":"constructed in 1914 and designed by Samuel Mccclure. Originally commissioned for Henry Graham Lawson, a member of the"},{"t":5255,"text":"Victoria Pioneering Family and is now commonly referred to as a as the Lawson residence, the home's heritage value is"},{"t":5264,"text":"further expressed through its architectural character as a subdued example of Mccclure's tutor revival influence. Its form, proportions,"},{"t":5273,"text":"material, and detailing contribute to its distinct identity and its contribution to the established character of the surrounding neighborhood."},{"t":5283,"text":"Beyond its architectural and historical significance, the home also holds important social value. Over time, it has accommodated a range of residents,"},{"t":5291,"text":"including families, students, and retirees, providing attainable and diverse living options within Oak Bay."},{"t":5298,"text":"Importantly, the home has been continuously occupied and adapted over time, and that continuity is an important aspect of its heritage value."},{"t":5307,"text":"It reflects a building that has remained relevant and integrated within the life of our community."},{"t":5315,"text":"Over the years, certain elements of the Lawson residence have been altered or have deteriorated, thus presenting an opportunity to repair and reinstate key"},{"t":5324,"text":"architectural features in a manner that is consistent with the home's original design intent."},{"t":5330,"text":"All work is guided by the standards and guidelines for the conservation of historic places in Canada with an emphasis on minimal intervention,"},{"t":5338,"text":"material authenticity, and respect for original craftsmanship."},{"t":5343,"text":"An important component of this proposal is the relocation of the home to the northeast corner of the site and its placement on a new foundation."},{"t":5352,"text":"This allows us to significantly improve the building's structural integrity, including seismic performance, while also extending its lifespan and ensuring"},{"t":5360,"text":"it meets modern safety and building standards, and is coverable by a new home warranty. The new foundation also enables improved building performance,"},{"t":5368,"text":"such as durability, moisture protection, and long-term resilience, factors that are critical to the ongoing conservation of a woodframe structure of this age."},{"t":5379,"text":"The relocation has been carefully considered to maintain the home's original orientation, thereby ensuring its relationship to the streetscape and the surrounding neighborhood character is protected yet improved."},{"t":5397,"text":"As we know, Oak Bay went through an extensive consultation process in 2025 with regard to its official community plan. Overall, this proposal has been"},{"t":5405,"text":"carefully shaped to align with the key directions of the most recently adopted OCP. And I am pleased to highlight a number of key areas, not the least of"},{"t":5413,"text":"which is the overarching context of policy H22, which reads, \"Reszoning of lots within the residential designation"},{"t":5421,"text":"may be supported to allow for the development of town houses with a greater density than typically allowed where the lot meets the following criteria."},{"t":5429,"text":"lots over a thousand meters squared or corner lots and lots fronting onto a BC transit route. 960 FAL bay meets all of these requirements."},{"t":5445,"text":"The OCP clearly supports gentle densification and expanded housing options within established neighborhoods. This proposal introduces"},{"t":5452,"text":"a modest number of town homes on an oversized lot while retaining the existing home as multi-unit housing providing a range of housing types that"},{"t":5460,"text":"can support different life life stages and household needs. This proposal aims to offer diversification of housing form in an appropriate location."},{"t":5471,"text":"The OCP also places a strong emphasis on protecting and celebrating heritage resources through the heritage revitalization agreement. The home will"},{"t":5480,"text":"be formally designated and legally protected. Significant investment will be made into the restoration and long-term conservation of the Lawson"},{"t":5487,"text":"residence. While, as mentioned, the building's visibility and prominence are actually enhanced within the streetscape by moving it to the northeast corner of the lot."},{"t":5497,"text":"Further, a key element of this proposal is the subdivision, which places the heritage home on its own parcel. This is important because it ensures the"},{"t":5505,"text":"long-term protection of the Lawson residence, not just as part of a larger development, but as a clearly defined and independent heritage asset. As its"},{"t":5514,"text":"own strata, the Lawson residence can be cared for in a way that's appropriate for its heritage preservation without being tied to the operational or"},{"t":5521,"text":"financial complexities of a town home strata. [snorts] The site supports the OCP's goal of"},{"t":5532,"text":"walkable, connected neighborhoods that reduce vehicle dependency. It is located within a walkable distance to daily needs and services directly on multiple"},{"t":5540,"text":"transit routes and sits along an established pedestrian and cycling corridor known as the Centennial Trail."},{"t":5546,"text":"With a walk score of 91, it is considered a walker's paradise."},{"t":5554,"text":"The OCP rightfully identifies the urban forest as a critical asset. This proposal prioritizes tree retention"},{"t":5561,"text":"wherever feasible, introduces significant new native plantings and landscape improvements that collectively support the long-term goal of maintaining and enhancing canopy cover."},{"t":5574,"text":"The proposal also contributes to the quality of the public realm for all members of our community to enjoy. I too live in Oak Bay and every time I pass"},{"t":5581,"text":"this corner, there's bound to be someone walking in the middle of Brighton Avenue. We aim to directly improve the safety of pedestrians and cyclists by"},{"t":5589,"text":"enhancing the interface along both FA Bay and Brighton with sidewalks, curbs, no parking areas, signage, and rumble"},{"t":5597,"text":"strips. Native plantings, large trees, and an interpretive panel will improve the overall streetscape character, creating a more welcoming and pedestrian"},{"t":5606,"text":"friendly streetscape with the goal of encouraging more social interaction along the corridors and amongst residents."},{"t":5616,"text":"The proposal also supports the OCP's climate and sustainability objectives by retaining and reinvesting in an existing building, reducing embodied carbon,"},{"t":5625,"text":"supporting compact, efficient land use, and enabling more people to live in a walkable location, thereby reducing transportation related emissions."},{"t":5636,"text":"[snorts]"},{"t":5637,"text":"Now, as we look toward the architectural aspects of the proposal, the alterations to the Lawson residence have been designed to support contemporary living"},{"t":5645,"text":"while remaining respectful of the home's original architectural character, ensuring they read as sympathetic extensions rather than dominant new"},{"t":5654,"text":"elements. We are proposing to redistribute what is currently one huge dwelling into eight new two-bedroom, two-b homes. The lowest level will have"},{"t":5663,"text":"three suites which are accessed directly by a few steps down from grade. The main floor of the home will be converted into two suites, both accessed by the"},{"t":5671,"text":"original set of stairs that remains on the front of the home today. Notably, an elevator will be introduced to the building which along with the stairwells"},{"t":5680,"text":"will provide direct access to two suites on the second floor and one suite on the uppermost floor."},{"t":5685,"text":"We will rehabilitate the decorative railing and reinstate the open sleeping porch above the main entry which was enclosed with glass at an earlier point in time."},{"t":5695,"text":"We will remove multiple skylights which were introduced during a prior renovation and retain and rehabilitate the original chimneys which are all in poor condition."},{"t":5708,"text":"Our architecture and design team has intentionally detailed the town home exteriors to be complimentary toward the features of the Lawson residence rather"},{"t":5715,"text":"than dominant or a copy. As an example, the town homes have bargeboard detail and finials at the peaks of the gables"},{"t":5722,"text":"similar to the Lawome residence. Also, we have included spindle and post details on the false balconies to echo the rhythm of the railing above the existing home's front entry."},{"t":5733,"text":"Panel and trim embellishments on the Lawson residence will be subtly reflected in the upper portions of the town home gables as well."},{"t":5741,"text":"The overall scale and massing of the town homes are well proportioned with the Lots and residents and neighboring properties with pitch roofs and"},{"t":5748,"text":"traditional form including asymmetrical gables. We have introduced shed roof entries to the town homes rather than gabling to keep the profile low and not to detract from the loss in residents."},{"t":5759,"text":"Roof heights of the town homes vary due to grade changes on the sites and range from 1 to 1.2 meters taller than the Lawson residents. That said, build"},{"t":5768,"text":"height of the town homes remains lower than the Lawson residence, ranging from 1.3 to 1.5 m less."},{"t":5775,"text":"The new town h town homes are designed as a mix of three and fourbedroom units offering a flex room which can be used as a den, a home office, or extra guest accommodations."},{"t":5784,"text":"All town homes have private garages and some have additional driveway parking as well. The garages include bicycle and refuge bin storage."},{"t":5794,"text":"All homes have dedicated outdoor patio space while the utmost care has been taken to preserve as many trees as possible, including a completed canopy"},{"t":5802,"text":"survey to ensure roof lines do not impact overhanging branches."},{"t":5810,"text":"Building upon the architectural approach discussed between the heritage conversion and the town homes, the material and color palette continues to reinforce that hierarchy across the"},{"t":5819,"text":"site. Our intent is to create a cohesive yet restrained pallet that allows the loss and residence to remain the visual"},{"t":5825,"text":"priority of the site. As such, materials are being restored and reinstated in a manner consistent with its original character with particular attention to"},{"t":5834,"text":"wood detailing, trim profiles, and key architectural elements highlighted by the color selection of Chantelli Lace."},{"t":5842,"text":"For the town homes, the palette has been carefully calibrated to complement the heritage structure by choosing a darker shade with Amherst gray. For the town"},{"t":5851,"text":"homes, the palette has Oh, pardon me. In terms of materiality, stucco is used as the unifying element across the site, but with intentional variation in"},{"t":5860,"text":"texture to distinguish between old and new. The Lawsome residence will retain its existing stucco finished texture,"},{"t":5867,"text":"preserving the subtle irregularities. In contrast, the town homes will be finished with a torpedo dash stucco, providing significantly more texture, but still a traditional form."},{"t":5877,"text":"Adding copper shed to the or sorry, adding copper to the shed roofs above the town home entries demonstrates our commitment to high-quality materials"},{"t":5885,"text":"with a traditional feel. And all dwellings will be united by the dark stained solid wood front doors."},{"t":5894,"text":"With regard to climate responsiveness and sustainability in our design choices, the adaptive reuse of the heritage home contributes profoundly by"},{"t":5902,"text":"extending the life of an existing structure and avoiding the environmental impacts associated with complete demolition and replacement."},{"t":5910,"text":"Further, the project has been designed to respond to the realities of a changing climate, particularly increasing temperature and extreme weather events by incorporating high"},{"t":5919,"text":"efficiency electric heat pumps, which provide both heating and cooling for residents privately screened on each unit's roof. These systems also support"},{"t":5928,"text":"the broader transition towards electrification and reduce reliance on fossil fuels, aligning with both local and provincial climate objectives."},{"t":5936,"text":"In addition, high performance vinyl windows, lowflow fixtures, and both high efficiency lighting and appliances aim to ensure the lowest possible utility bills for families and seniors."},{"t":5948,"text":"The building envelope and material selections further contribute to resilience with a focus on durability, longevity, and reduce maintenance over"},{"t":5956,"text":"time, ensuring the buildings perform well into the future. This project also includes solar ready roof design and EV"},{"t":5963,"text":"conduit for charging stations in every garage."},{"t":5969,"text":"The landscape design was guided by feedback heard from the broader community with a focus on creating meaningful and high impact frontage improvements that prioritize pedestrian"},{"t":5978,"text":"safety and offer a benefit for all. As such, we've designed generous and meandering sidewalks that preserve critical root zones of several mature"},{"t":5986,"text":"Gary Oak trees along the boulevard and offer new curbs, gutters, signage, and rumble strips to improve pedestrian and"},{"t":5993,"text":"cyclist safety. The planting strategy along these frontages emphasizes native and regionally appropriate species which"},{"t":6001,"text":"support biodiversity, pollinator health, and long-term ecological resilience."},{"t":6006,"text":"And finally, along the Centennial Trail, we've proposed an interpretive panel that if approved would seek to acknowledge both the traditional territory and the historical"},{"t":6014,"text":"significance of the site. The content of the panel will be prepared in consultation with the Song Heis and Esquyimalt Nations and our heritage consultant as well as staff."},{"t":6028,"text":"Our landscape architect continues to work closely with park staff to ensure the proposed species support Oak Bay's OCP policies around urban health, biodiversity, and climate resilience."},{"t":6038,"text":"While some re removals are necessary to create new homes, this proposal delivers a net environmental gain through substantial new plantings, strategic"},{"t":6047,"text":"transplanting, and a stronger long-term canopy outcome."},{"t":6051,"text":"The landscape plan exceeds Oak Bay's required required canopy target by 20% transforming the site into a more"},{"t":6059,"text":"resilient and sustainable urban forest than exists today. Younger, healthier, climate appropriate trees will provide future shade, carbon capture, habitat,"},{"t":6068,"text":"storm water absorption, and biodiversity benefits for generations to come."},{"t":6083,"text":"Is there techn Oh, there. Oh, there we go."},{"t":6086,"text":"To address concerns raised by neighbors around traffic and parking, the project team commissioned an updated transportation impact assessment"},{"t":6094,"text":"with [snorts] a new traffic count to inform 2025 data. And the findings are very clear. Traffic in the area has remained relatively stable over time"},{"t":6103,"text":"with an average growth rate of just 0.5% per year, which is modest. Further, the actual traffic that will be generated by"},{"t":6110,"text":"this proposal is very low with 11 and 13 trips at peak morning and afternoon times respectively. Most importantly, the study found that there will be no"},{"t":6119,"text":"meaningful change to intersection performance and with the development in place and that intersections will continue to operate with minimal delays and no significant queuing."},{"t":6129,"text":"This will remain true both at opening day and in the 10-year future scenario."},{"t":6135,"text":"It's also worth noting that the study observed a significant increase in cycling activity in the area. This suggests that over time, not all growth translates into more vehicle traffic."},{"t":6145,"text":"And by [snorts] consolidating access onto Brighton Avenue and removing access to and from Foul Bay Road, movements are simplified and safety improved."},{"t":6156,"text":"With regard to community engagement, an open house was held last year on April 15th. We expanded the required radius for invitation mailing to 200 meters in"},{"t":6165,"text":"an effort to have meaningful discussions with the broader community in both Oak Bay and Victoria. What we heard was support to preserve and designate the"},{"t":6174,"text":"heritage home. Support of new diverse housing choices, support for traditional architectural cues taken for the town"},{"t":6181,"text":"homes. We heard that more effort should be made to prioritize tree retention."},{"t":6186,"text":"There were mixed feelings regarding parking. Some thought there was too much, others thought there was too little. Some neighbors thought the building height should be reduced."},{"t":6195,"text":"Immediate neighbors wanted access off of Foul Bay Road only. There was a mixed response to the Brighton Avenue improvements and privacy concerns from the neighbors to the west."},{"t":6208,"text":"So in response and to significantly improve tree retention on the site and on the boulevard and ensure off-site trees will not be impacted, we surveyed"},{"t":6215,"text":"the proposed buildings had the arborist team hand dig along the south and west property lines to expose root systems and worked with our architect and"},{"t":6224,"text":"structural engineer to redesign the foundation systems to mitigate or eliminate impacts to critical root zones. We also worked with our civil"},{"t":6232,"text":"engineering team and landscape architect to adjust the sidewalk patterns and storm drain flow to ensure impacts to critical root zones of on-site and"},{"t":6240,"text":"boulevard trees were mitigated and have added transplantation of two existing young Gary Oaks on municipal property."},{"t":6246,"text":"While access to and from Fay Road has been discussed and considered at length with neighbors and the consultant team, staff did not support this option at this time."},{"t":6258,"text":"Ultimately, this proposal has been carefully resolved to balance heritage conservation with much needed diverse"},{"t":6266,"text":"housing designed for a range of ages and needs. Equal care has been given to how the project meets the street, strengthening both the Fowl Bay and"},{"t":6275,"text":"Brighton frontages through landscape scale and material continuity and contributing to a more cohesive and pedestrian-friendly public realm. We"},{"t":6284,"text":"feel this is a well-considered and contextually responsive approach that respects the character of the neighborhood and both the design and"},{"t":6292,"text":"planning principles for growth as outlined in the official community plan."},{"t":6297,"text":"In closing, throughout this process, I have had to remind myself many times that the hardest decisions are rarely the easiest, but they are the ones that matter most."},{"t":6308,"text":"It has not been easy to continue in the face of threats to my family, a constant stream of slanderous comments, and at times gender bias. But I remain grounded"},{"t":6316,"text":"in the belief that leadership requires courage, that doing the right thing is not always easy, and that our responsibility is to build for a future"},{"t":6325,"text":"that matters. A future where heritage is protected, where families and seniors can still find a place to belong, and"},{"t":6332,"text":"where our neighborhoods remain vibrant, diverse, and enduring for generations that follow."},{"t":6342,"text":"We had one more slide, but I think it just says, \"Thank you.\" So, we're Yeah."},{"t":6347,"text":"All right. And with that, thank you very much for your time this evening, and I look forward to hearing your fe feedback. The project team and I will do our very best to answer any questions"},{"t":6354,"text":"you may have. Uh thank you very much Miss Travel B and uh for the presentation. I'm sure there will be some questions for members of council."},{"t":6363,"text":"So um happy to go turn to the table. Someone wishes to go first. Go ahead councelor Smart."},{"t":6372,"text":"Uh thank you um uh through you mayor to the applicant. I just want to thank you for the presentation and I am sorry to"},{"t":6379,"text":"hear um that you have been harassed. Um uh three mayor. I guess my first question would be um could staff could"},{"t":6388,"text":"staff possibly elaborate um or perhaps the applicant um on the impact uh to trees on neighboring properties."},{"t":6398,"text":"Sure. Mr. green."},{"t":6401,"text":"Oh, through your worship to uh council smart I don't have a a specific answer of to obviously what I can tell you is"},{"t":6408,"text":"that obviously this proposal uh would result in 23 bot protected trees on site as well as two offsite bylaw protected"},{"t":6416,"text":"trees. Uh majority of those with the exception of one are in fair to poor health. Um obviously the con there is a"},{"t":6424,"text":"a conclusions through the tree management plan that I would yeah encourage you to look at but I don't have an answer in terms of how what the"},{"t":6431,"text":"impact of um the loss of those trees on adjacent properties are at this time."},{"t":6438,"text":"M trouble do you wish to answer that question?"},{"t":6440,"text":"Yes. So in our initial uh report prepared by the arborist um they did advise that uh given the current site"},{"t":6448,"text":"plan and proposed layouts that there would be some potential impacts to off-site trees. Um so uh further to that"},{"t":6455,"text":"we had the arbur's team on site to survey the proposed buildings and we realized that by um retaining a"},{"t":6463,"text":"significant number of horse chestnuts along the west and south property line their root systems were intertwined uh with the off-site trees as well as their"},{"t":6471,"text":"canopies. So, uh, by adjusting the foundations of our end units on two buildings, um, we w we would no longer"},{"t":6478,"text":"impact those root zones of the horse chestnuts and, uh, we're able to retain them on our site, thereby mitigating any"},{"t":6486,"text":"interruption to the off-site trees. Um, so the arborist did prepare and submit a supplementary uh, report to the uh, initial uh, tree uh, report."},{"t":6499,"text":"Just go ahead, councelor Smart."},{"t":6501,"text":"Oh, thank you. Um through my next question um is about the note in the report about there potentially being"},{"t":6508,"text":"rooftop heat pumps and unknown screening. Um I just wondered if staff of the applicant had um any further"},{"t":6515,"text":"information on whether there would be rooftop heat pumps and whether there would be screening"},{"t":6524,"text":"uh through your worship to council smart. Um, obviously that was an issue that we raised and obviously the applicant hasn't had chance to"},{"t":6532,"text":"essentially respond to that comment from our detailed review of the drawings, but I guess we would encourage the applicant to screen those heat pumps where where"},{"t":6541,"text":"possible just to meet the DB guidelines in relation to screening uh mechanical systems."},{"t":6549,"text":"Please go ahead."},{"t":6551,"text":"Oh, thank you. Um through Mayor, my next question was um one of our letter writers was concerned about uh storm water capacity with the impermability of"},{"t":6560,"text":"the site. Um and I wondered um if staff could possibly comment on the storm water capacity in this area and if we do"},{"t":6567,"text":"have significant known concerns. Thank you, Mr. Renick. through the mayor. We have"},{"t":6574,"text":"spoken with the applicants engineering team about incorporating post-development peak flows not to exceed pre-development peak flows, which"},{"t":6582,"text":"is standard for this type of development. And so we're confident that we can work with the applicant and work"},{"t":6589,"text":"with their engineer um in in having their site respond to our our storm system and our standard requirements."},{"t":6597,"text":"Anything else, Council Mark?"},{"t":6599,"text":"Uh thank you. Um I do have two more questions though. Hopefully be brief. um through you, mayor. My next question is um with regards to the Watts report that"},{"t":6607,"text":"said that no cycling infrastructure upgrades are recommended um for this development. Um uh I just wondered um if"},{"t":6617,"text":"as a district in the future if we are going to require any additional right of way for our future active transportation plans on Val Bay."},{"t":6625,"text":"Mr. Renick uh through the mayor. There will be road dedication proposed as part of this development."},{"t":6635,"text":"And yeah, just yeah, that was one of our comments that went back in early in the the review of this application and the applicant has responded and uh"},{"t":6644,"text":"redesigned the project to allow the district to take 2.74 meters for additional road dedication that would"},{"t":6650,"text":"allow u a greater width of right of way including a a pedestrian path along the uh uh west frontage of the property."},{"t":6661,"text":"I'll just thank you mayor. Final question is just with regards to whether staff could potentially just elaborate on what I gather was our staff's"},{"t":6669,"text":"direction to have the um driveway off of um Brighton as opposed to Fal Bay. I know this is standard practice to"},{"t":6677,"text":"usually have the um access off of the quieter street, but I wondered if staff could just elaborate because it was a concern from many of our letter writers about could it not be on fall."},{"t":6686,"text":"Mr. Renick, uh thank you through the mayor to councelor Smart. Um, you did team me up for the answer that it is typically done"},{"t":6694,"text":"on corner lots to have the access be off of the quieter road. In particular with Fowl Bay Road, the stretch of Fal Bay"},{"t":6701,"text":"Road south of Oak Bay Avenue does have some geometry concerns. It also has some trees that are quite close to the"},{"t":6708,"text":"driving surface. We do see some of the residences along that stretch of Fal Bay Road have mirrors or have hidden"},{"t":6716,"text":"driveway signs. On the whole, we felt that having the driveway penetration be on Brighton as opposed to on Fal Bay"},{"t":6723,"text":"Road was was um an optimal way to respond to some of the concerns we have on that stretch of road."},{"t":6732,"text":"Thank you. I have next councelor Briew then Green then Watson. Uh thanks so much mayor and through you."},{"t":6738,"text":"Um I have a lot of questions so um perhaps I'll do some and then pass it along and and let others ask and perhaps"},{"t":6745,"text":"come back to me. Um the first one I think is going to go to staff and I'm just wondering um how this proposal aligns with the recently adopted OCP"},{"t":6753,"text":"particularly around density and form in this particular area. If you have some comments on that please Mr. Green"},{"t":6762,"text":"through your worship to uh council bravewit. I would refer to my staff report in the analysis section"},{"t":6770,"text":"where we outlined that the property is currently designated residential in the updated OCP. Uh as outlined in policy"},{"t":6778,"text":"CF1 and therefore the residential designation supports different forms of ground oriented infilousing up to four"},{"t":6786,"text":"units per bill lot. And so from a land use frameworks perspective in relation to that policy CF1 this is this application is contrary to that land use"},{"t":6793,"text":"framework and that is why the applicant has had to continue with an OCP amendment application to change the land"},{"t":6801,"text":"use designation from residential to uh townhouse residential and therefore we now have a designation in"},{"t":6808,"text":"the updated OCP for townhouse residential. This site wasn't identified or allocated by council for"},{"t":6816,"text":"Terranos residential or multi-unit residential in the update of the OCB."},{"t":6821,"text":"However, there are a number of policies uh in attachment 17 of the staff report that talk about particularly in relation"},{"t":6829,"text":"to where an applicant wishes to change the land use framework and therefore uh particularly in relation to policy H22."},{"t":6838,"text":"There is a policy there that is helps to support applications who wish to or applicants who wish to change the land use framework from one land use"},{"t":6846,"text":"designation another. I in this case from the residential designation to the townhouse residential there's a policy there that would provide policies"},{"t":6854,"text":"brought for an application to amend the OCP uh which talks about corner lots large lots over a thousand square meters"},{"t":6861,"text":"and lots that front onto a a transit uh network route."},{"t":6866,"text":"Thank you. And I would note that it is a heritage revitalization agreement process as well."},{"t":6871,"text":"Correct. There is also policies within not only uh the built environment policy section as well as the housing section"},{"t":6879,"text":"that talk about uh other policy objectives being achieved. In this case, there is the significant benefit of a a heritage house being designated added to"},{"t":6888,"text":"the community register and uh safeguarding its long-term future as a heritage resource for the community. Thank you. Go ahead, councelor."},{"t":6896,"text":"Thank you. And through you, mayor. So then I guess to the uh applicant um I'm wondering why this particular density of 24 units was selected um as appropriate"},{"t":6905,"text":"for this um this appropriate level for this site and why you didn't consider perhaps a a lower amount like 12 units"},{"t":6912,"text":"or something like that. So perhaps if you can touch on that please. Thank you."},{"t":6916,"text":"Yes certainly through through you mayor uh to councelor Braithweight. Um I think um the way I can best describe it is in"},{"t":6923,"text":"two separate pieces. one being the uh heritage conversion. Um really what my market research tells me is that two-bedroom single- level units are in"},{"t":6932,"text":"great need in our community. Um so hence we were able to come up with the design team a really great layout for those eight units. Um it could be less, it"},{"t":6941,"text":"could be more, but I feel that eight are practically sized units that would reflect a price point of people who are looking for those types of units. And uh"},{"t":6949,"text":"when it comes to the town houses, uh really it's based on square footage. So, as Brian mentioned in his staff report,"},{"t":6956,"text":"um the lots sort of as is today by and right could be subdivided into three lots and excuse [clears throat] me"},{"t":6964,"text":"aligned with the current OCP that would be a floor area ratio of8 to1."},{"t":6969,"text":"So that would mean a buildable square footage of 28,630 ft. What we're proposing is 29,290"},{"t":6977,"text":"ft. So we're talking about a difference between 12 units and our 16 proposed is a difference of 660 ft. So very minor in"},{"t":6986,"text":"my opinion. Um I feel that those 16 town homes are very well suited to the site."},{"t":6992,"text":"I feel that um that sort of slight increase in density for what would be allowed as per se as in right um is a"},{"t":7002,"text":"modest ask in exchange for the preservation and the restoration of the heritage asset. Um we all know I think"},{"t":7009,"text":"in this room and it's very broadly known that uh the conversion unit is not a profit-making enterprise. it will absolutely not recover the cost of"},{"t":7018,"text":"picking up, moving and restoring the heritage conversion by those eight units."},{"t":7023,"text":"Uh hence we look to uh slightly increase the density from the 12 town homes that would be allowed already on the site by like I say it's only 660 ft larger."},{"t":7035,"text":"Thank you. Counc."},{"t":7037,"text":"Uh thank you. Um, and talking about the conversion of the um of the uh of the house that's already there. Um, as we"},{"t":7045,"text":"heard in the previous um application, uh, things happen when you try and move a house. Um, so um, I mean it could"},{"t":7052,"text":"become a bit of a horror story. uh and I'm wondering um ho how what things you've you've taken into account to"},{"t":7060,"text":"ensure that that won't be happening with this particular building or moving this particular building because as again as we heard in the previous application"},{"t":7068,"text":"things happen so thank you uh through you mayor um I'm I'm not overly familiar with the"},{"t":7075,"text":"previous project so uh what I heard this evening was uh sort of all I know about it um I do know it sounds that our project is simpler and that we're"},{"t":7084,"text":"picking up the home and putting it in one specific location, the entire structure. Um I perhaps Katie would want"},{"t":7092,"text":"to jump in here. I would assume that uh there's differences in such that the interior of this home does not have"},{"t":7100,"text":"designated heritage um features or anything I don't want to say of heritage"},{"t":7107,"text":"value. So, it sounded to me like the previous uh applicant did have some interior portions that were meant to be preserved, whereas we don't."},{"t":7116,"text":"It's a little bit different, but yeah, maybe you can [laughter] I'll let the heritage professional uh explain uh the differences between the two."},{"t":7124,"text":"Thank you so much. Can you hear me?"},{"t":7125,"text":"Okay, we can just speak clearly and it should be fine."},{"t":7128,"text":"Yes. Do I have to say my name and city again? She should do that. Yes."},{"t":7132,"text":"Uh sorry. I'm Katie CR. Uh city of Victoria but working in Oak Bay. Um, thank you through the bear to councelor Braithweight. Um, it's a good question"},{"t":7140,"text":"and I would say certainly from my experience. The reason the Lawson residence is a little bit more straightforward is obviously the footprint of it is much smaller."},{"t":7147,"text":"Anenddale was very unique in being as long as it was and unable to be moved in one piece. We always knew that from the outset whereas this will be able to. So"},{"t":7156,"text":"there is um a later addition that is not being included as part of this. It is not having to be relocated and moved"},{"t":7164,"text":"which simplifies things but it is a much more sort of compact piece to pick up and move and it can be moved once and be"},{"t":7172,"text":"done. So um I am fairly confident that this will be more straightforward. Um as Jen did mention or Miss Travel did"},{"t":7179,"text":"mention um the inside is much less um there's less concern in terms of original material and things like that."},{"t":7186,"text":"So there's just a little bit less to go wrong here. There may be surprises, but my hope is that it will be more straightforward. Thank you for the question. Thank you. Go ahead."},{"t":7194,"text":"Uh, thanks very much. Um, and then perhaps this question would go to staff."},{"t":7197,"text":"Um, do we can you um reiterate to me what the proposed impermeable surface coverage is and how that um would compare to the the bylaw limits that we have in place right now."},{"t":7208,"text":"Sure."},{"t":7210,"text":"Go ahead, Mr. Green, if you have it handy or the applicant if you have it handy."},{"t":7217,"text":"I had it I think it's 72% I think is what I think I read in the report but if you can just clarify."},{"t":7222,"text":"Yeah. So the bylaw for the R4 zone has a imperial coverage impermeable surface coverage max of 50% and this development we calculated at 72%."},{"t":7233,"text":"Thank you. And then so about back to the applicant then um so then then where is really the meaningful um shared"},{"t":7241,"text":"open space for residents in this plan because you say that each resident will have a portion of a yard um but is there any meaningful shared open space for the residents?"},{"t":7252,"text":"Melby."},{"t":7253,"text":"Thank you mayor. uh through you uh the as part of the uh conversion. Yes, there is some open public space uh for those"},{"t":7261,"text":"residents uh on the corner of Fal Bay and Brighton heading towards Fal Bay Road. There is a significant amount of open space in the front of the home. Uh"},{"t":7269,"text":"for the town homes, those are private yard spaces uh for each unit. So the town homes along Brighton and Foul Bay, those private yards would both be facing"},{"t":7278,"text":"the street. And then um building C uh they're facing the south property line for their private yard spaces."},{"t":7288,"text":"Thank you, Maron. Through you um the you've you're taking away I think you said nine rental units from this um from"},{"t":7296,"text":"this uh from the house. And so, um, I'm just wondering how this proposal really supports affordability or rental supply"},{"t":7304,"text":"when it's really removing rentals and delivering primarily high-end, um, strata units. So, probably,"},{"t":7312,"text":"thank you. Uh, through you, the home is actually just rented as one uh, home."},{"t":7316,"text":"The residents choose to live community communally, excuse me. So, it's just uh, rented under one teny agreement. Um,"},{"t":7324,"text":"so I think the the net loss of a rental would be one unit."},{"t":7328,"text":"Thank you. And then um to staff um can you clarify for me how many protected trees and other trees on-site and off-site are expected to be lost as part of the construction please. Thank you."},{"t":7341,"text":"M travel if you have that information you can jump in as well. But oh there's Mr. Green. Go ahead."},{"t":7348,"text":"Yeah. So on page 194 of the staff reports, we say that 23 on-site trees protected under the tree protection"},{"t":7355,"text":"bylaw uh will require removal and two municipal street trees."},{"t":7362,"text":"Sorry, 124 did you say?"},{"t":7364,"text":"23 on site trees and two municipal street trees."},{"t":7368,"text":"Thank you. Um and then to the um applicants, you talked about the interpretive panel um along the Brighton"},{"t":7375,"text":"and is that on our land or on your land or can you just give a bit more of an explanation of that for me please? Just trouble me."},{"t":7382,"text":"Uh thank you through you mayor. Uh that is proposed to be on the subject property but we are happy to consider it being on the boulevard if that will be"},{"t":7390,"text":"preferred by uh yourselves and and staff. We are happy to be flexible on the location of the impanel."},{"t":7398,"text":"Thank you. I'll pass it along for now. Mayor, thank you."},{"t":7401,"text":"Thank you. I have in my speaking list councelor Green and then Watson and then Patterson. Thank Thank [clears throat] you, Mayor."},{"t":7407,"text":"And through you to Miss Travelbe. Thank you very much for being here today. Um you were also at the Heritage Commission meeting on April the 1st, so you were"},{"t":7415,"text":"aware of their conditional approval and the conditions that are attached to that. Um just wondered uh have you"},{"t":7422,"text":"considered those conditions since April 1st uh so that they could possibly be incorporated. Thank you. Go ahead."},{"t":7430,"text":"Thank you so much through you uh mayor to uh councelor Green. Um yes absolutely uh we've considered it. I think that"},{"t":7438,"text":"there can certainly be some concessions made in terms of the height. If we were to go back to uh the drawing board um uh"},{"t":7446,"text":"meaning the height specifically of the Lawson residence um as I mentioned the uh height variability between the units"},{"t":7455,"text":"of sorry the townhouse blocks does vary but they're still very much within one to 1.2 meters taller than the Lawson"},{"t":7462,"text":"residence. So I in speaking with uh our architect and uh Keith and Russ, I think that is something that we can"},{"t":7469,"text":"accomplish. Um in terms of the the number of um sorry the green space"},{"t":7476,"text":"around the uh ex the heritage home I there was a mention from the design"},{"t":7483,"text":"panel that we could possibly consider reducing the number of parking spaces."},{"t":7488,"text":"So that would be an option to create more green space on the site, thereby creating more openness around the heritage home. And then lastly, I"},{"t":7496,"text":"believe their recommendation was a maximum of of 12 units. Um, which going back uh to my early respon earlier"},{"t":7502,"text":"response to councelor Braithweave. Um, essentially 12 town homes is what's available to be built on the lot right"},{"t":7510,"text":"now as is. Um, so as I mentioned, uh, what we're proposing is only 660 ft, uh, larger of a build space than what is"},{"t":7518,"text":"currently allowed on the site. Um, and turning that into 16 units versus 12 units makes the price point of the 16"},{"t":7527,"text":"units more accessible. Um, it also allows us a bit more flexibility and some risk to mitigate uh in hopes of"},{"t":7535,"text":"offsetting the costs of uh picking up, moving and completely restoring the heritage home on the site."},{"t":7544,"text":"Thank you, Councelor Green. I now turn to Councelor Watts and then councelor Patterson."},{"t":7552,"text":"Thank you. If I could just I have a just a few questions, but if I could start with staff just to clarify my understanding."},{"t":7559,"text":"If you take the heritage building and you move it to the coroner, is it the remaining area that the calculation is"},{"t":7567,"text":"could become three or four lots? I think Miss Travelbe said that I was I just wanted to make sure we're talking about a house on a on a separate lot or or"},{"t":7576,"text":"maybe it's part of the same lot and then it could be three additional lots. Is that correct?"},{"t":7583,"text":"through your worship to u councelor Watson. the the the lot in question is just over 3,000"},{"t":7592,"text":"square meters and therefore under the district's zoning bylaw that that could be subdivided into three lots to meet"},{"t":7599,"text":"the minimum lot size of the R4 zone which would equate to 12 units and that's obviously in principle in"},{"t":7607,"text":"terms of that we haven't obviously done the math and we haven't done the subdivision layout as such in terms of whether there'd be any variances but"},{"t":7614,"text":"when you take the the the current lots size and divide that by the current minimum lot size of the R4. Then that means that that site is currently"},{"t":7621,"text":"subdividable under the district's AR zoning."},{"t":7625,"text":"Thank you. What I still don't understand though is that there is a residual space for the heritage home which sits on that which also has a footprint. Is that included in that calculation or not?"},{"t":7635,"text":"That is not included in that calculation. And it's just a simple math of what is the total site lot size currently versus what does the what is"},{"t":7643,"text":"the minimum lot size and therefore zone and and therefore in principle or in theory how could that site be subdivided on the current zoning without a reasonzoning application uh proceeding."},{"t":7652,"text":"Okay. Um thank you. And then a follow-up question. I I as I understand it, the number of homes permitted on an R4 lot actually relates to the frequency of the"},{"t":7660,"text":"bus service by the property and I think it would go up to six if there was considered to be frequent bus service"},{"t":7667,"text":"along that route. So that would make 18 in total. Um if you could just comment on that and what the what the what the current frequency is and what the"},{"t":7676,"text":"anticipated frequency might be. We've already had one frequency change within the community uh within I think the last six months. So I'm curious about that."},{"t":7685,"text":"if you're wishing to council Watson. So this part of Farway Bay uh road is currently not identified by BC Transit."},{"t":7692,"text":"It's a frequent transit route. Uh that that route uh is currently only applies to route 15 and route 14 on Richmond"},{"t":7702,"text":"Road. So route 15 from the Fort Bay, sorry, Fort Street uh Foul Bay Road uh"},{"t":7708,"text":"route up to UIC uh is is the only route that has now met that threshold of a 15minute service 7 days a week by BC"},{"t":7717,"text":"Transit and that was confirmed to the district in January of this year."},{"t":7721,"text":"Thank you. Um I have another question and it may be for both staff and the applicant about the parking that's suggested in the current proposal. Um to"},{"t":7731,"text":"what would be the minimum parking required by the by the the existing rules? That would be my question to"},{"t":7739,"text":"staff and then my question to the applicant will be why did you choose the particular number and arrangement that you did certainly since it's been"},{"t":7748,"text":"queried as perhaps being more than sufficient Mr. Green"},{"t":7763,"text":"or M Travel B if you have at the top of your mind the the minimums and the uh and what's proposed and the you certainly have the answer to the why."},{"t":7772,"text":"Certainly through you happy to answer uh the why. Um although the layout for the town homes certainly supports twocar"},{"t":7781,"text":"garages, it's not my intention that those will be filled with vehicles. I think uh given the walkability, the location of the site, it's very"},{"t":7789,"text":"reasonable that they will be one family cars. But with families and children come stuff and things. And so I think by"},{"t":7796,"text":"having the larger garage space, it allows for that stuff. The camping gear, the bikes, the kayaks, all of that jazz gets to be stored in there."},{"t":7803,"text":"realistically not not two cars in every site. So although we have the space for it, I think uh it's very reasonable that uh every garage space will not be used"},{"t":7812,"text":"and then um the certain there's uh seven town houses that have uh driveway"},{"t":7819,"text":"spaces. So those are really a bonus parking spot. You know, perhaps they use it or perhaps they park in their garage and that's just open sight space. It's"},{"t":7828,"text":"really uh contained in the center of the proposal. So can be viewed as a driveway space to park can also be viewed as open sight space"},{"t":7838,"text":"and yeah and yeah I will answer the the first part um and so under the R4 zone u the parking facilities by law requires.5"},{"t":7847,"text":"parking spaces per dwelling unit um where there is more than two dwelling units on a lot uh which would translate"},{"t":7854,"text":"in terms of this development of 12 spaces. However, the parking facilities bylaw also contains parking requirements"},{"t":7861,"text":"for multi-unit residential zones uh which are sort of more typically associated with residential developments of this intensity. And so for that zone"},{"t":7870,"text":"or for the the RM zones that would equate to one parking space per unit plus additional guest parking of one space per four dwelling units which would equate to 30 parking spaces."},{"t":7883,"text":"To clarify, 37 are specified at the moment. Correct. So 30 would be requested and 37 have been offered."},{"t":7889,"text":"Uh 39 the applicant is proposing 39 parking spaces for the site."},{"t":7894,"text":"Thank you. That might come back to that later when we have discussion. Um and then just finally uh this is to the"},{"t":7900,"text":"applicant. Um um there there has been some discussion I certainly in in the correspondence about the particular uh I"},{"t":7909,"text":"I know you've commented on the overall square footage but the actual unit layouts for the town houses and this focus on three and in effect three and"},{"t":7918,"text":"four bedroomedroom or two plus dan three plus bed um uh dan units if you could just speak on the on your own market"},{"t":7925,"text":"research again and how you came to that conclusion because it is being queried."},{"t":7931,"text":"Certainly. Thank you through uh you mayor to uh councelor Watson. Um I think it would be extremely rare that uh"},{"t":7938,"text":"someone uh moving in here would be using that as a fourth bedroom. Um our market research um is loud and clear that threebedrooms are the desired uh mix."},{"t":7951,"text":"Two-bedroom town homes are not popular. They are not what folks are looking for."},{"t":7957,"text":"um unless really uh that would be more targeted towards a downsizer in which case that would likely need to have an elevator uh within the unit. These are"},{"t":7966,"text":"more targeted towards families. So likely to have one to two children use that third bedroom and the fourth spa fourth space downstairs as a flex room."},{"t":7973,"text":"You know, a home office. So many folks work from home these days. An area for kids to study, um a games room and what"},{"t":7980,"text":"have you. That's that's the intention of this design. Um the fourth space on the entry level also has direct outdoor"},{"t":7988,"text":"access. Um so that's sort of intended, like I say, is for someone who may be seeing clients as a home office. Uh that's sort of the purpose behind that layout."},{"t":7998,"text":"And then just one final question for staff. We had some questions about um access off Fowl Bay. And just to"},{"t":8006,"text":"clarify, I guess the the traffic study was done based on the assumption that it was off of Brighton. Um, could I assume"},{"t":8014,"text":"that if there was a change there that would require a start from scratch traffic study, Mr. Renick?"},{"t":8025,"text":"Through the mayor to councelor Watson."},{"t":8026,"text":"Perhaps not exactly a start from scratch, but it would require a revision to the study. Yes."},{"t":8034,"text":"I have next councelor Patterson and I will a couple questions and I'll go to councelor for a second time."},{"t":8041,"text":"Yes. Thank you, mayor. And uh there are so many questions. I've been writing all the comments here. Couple of um"},{"t":8049,"text":"questions and I just want to follow up on on one that uh councelor Watson just raised and that is the transportation"},{"t":8056,"text":"study. that uh path is um is along Brighton and I can understand relocating"},{"t":8064,"text":"the the entrance uh off of the quieter road, but of course it is traversed by a lot of uh lot of pedestrians. The"},{"t":8072,"text":"crosswalk is there, the community mailbox is there, so there are vehicles that go go in there so that people can"},{"t":8080,"text":"stop and pick up their their community mail. And I would suppose that these units would be added to those community"},{"t":8089,"text":"mailboxes. And so I am uh my query is um the if we do a revised transportation"},{"t":8096,"text":"study and I think director Renick did mention the the sightelines. It's it's a difficult"},{"t":8104,"text":"corner. if the transportation study will also take into consideration safety aspects for all of the the road and sidewalk and path users."},{"t":8118,"text":"I think I have to give that to Mr. Renick."},{"t":8121,"text":"Uh thank you uh Mr. Mayor through you to councelor Patterson."},{"t":8127,"text":"When we were reviewing the proposal for Brighton Avenue with the frontage improvements, with the sidewalk, um we"},{"t":8136,"text":"felt that the driveway that the applicant was showing is a it's a very standard driveway. It clearly gives precedence to the pedestrians over the"},{"t":8144,"text":"vehicles exiting the driveway. So, with the plans as presented, we did not see a significant concern to pedestrian"},{"t":8151,"text":"safety. And we also saw the sidewalk as a potential enhancement to the trail over what's currently there, which is"},{"t":8159,"text":"essentially a road and uh an undeveloped shoulder. Counc."},{"t":8165,"text":"Yes. Thank you, Mayor. And just as a followup to that perhaps to Mr. Renick."},{"t":8170,"text":"Um, when I talk about um safety with the crosswalk there and the um the curving"},{"t":8178,"text":"road so that the sight lines aren't visible. I guess what I'm looking for by way of safety aspects is um traffic exiting Brighton."},{"t":8189,"text":"Um would that be still allowed? Traffic will try to turn both ways. Um, and so"},{"t":8197,"text":"I'm wondering with with increases and there are increases with within the Fowl Bay Road and Oak Bay Avenue that would"},{"t":8205,"text":"be in addition to this. So with those added um vehicles, would we be considerate considering the exiting from"},{"t":8214,"text":"Brighton as to be um a one-way directional traffic so that it doesn't interfere with the with the crosswalk, vehicles on a curb, that type of thing."},{"t":8225,"text":"That's what I'm referencing as safety aspects. Go ahead, Mr. Renick."},{"t":8231,"text":"Through the mayor and to councelor Patterson. Thanks for the additional context. That question was presented uh"},{"t":8238,"text":"it was discussed and as the applicant notes, there was no change in level of service uh perceived or anticipated at"},{"t":8246,"text":"the corner of Brighton Avenue and Fal Road. It's currently a stop control and uh the traffic impact assessment"},{"t":8254,"text":"identified that the proposed development would not have a significant impact on level of service for that stop control to the point where you would need to"},{"t":8262,"text":"consider um banning a turning movement for example. Thank you."},{"t":8267,"text":"Thank you councelor Patterson. I have councelor Appleton. It's my last first time questions."},{"t":8273,"text":"Thank you worship and through you. Um thank you very much for the presentation. Uh just a couple of smaller questions. One of the comments"},{"t":8281,"text":"that was that was made by advisory groups um and were paying attention to with rebuild both rebuilds and new builds was the accessibility of the loss"},{"t":8289,"text":"in residence. Um and you did mention the elevator and so I was wondering whether you might just be able to provide a little bit more detail about what the"},{"t":8296,"text":"plans are for creating accessibility well basically access into the building and throughout the building specifically for the loss and residents."},{"t":8304,"text":"Go ahead. Travel. Uh thank you so much, mayor. Through you to councelor Appleton. Um in terms of access to the"},{"t":8312,"text":"Lawson residence, um as designed, uh folks would still need to come up the front stairs that currently exist on the"},{"t":8319,"text":"home. So once you're up those uh few sets of stairs, you would be into the main level foyer of the building. So you"},{"t":8328,"text":"could then access the two units that are on the main floor uh seamlessly continuing at the same level or then"},{"t":8336,"text":"gain access elevated access to the upper two floors which is access to another three suites. So a total of five suites"},{"t":8344,"text":"would be accessible uh um by just heading up a few front stairs that are original to the building. And some"},{"t":8351,"text":"feedback that we received um at the design panel was to consider um it wasn't officially on the record, but definitely some things that I've thought"},{"t":8359,"text":"about since was ensuring that we have curbless showers in the unit so that if someone was in a wheelchair, they would easily or or have any mobility concerns,"},{"t":8367,"text":"they would easily be able to get into the shower. And then for the three units that are in the below ground level up the Lawson residence, there's a few"},{"t":8375,"text":"steps uh below grade to access those units. And again, once you're unceming"},{"t":8394,"text":"question and it was raised by a gentleman um in a wheelchair and it was a really interesting discussion that resulted from it and I felt a little bit"},{"t":8402,"text":"silly that I hadn't really thought about it from the beginning. So we are thinking and trying to figure out okay how do you make this heritage building"},{"t":8409,"text":"accessible to a wheelchair. Um we haven't decided on the exact choice but there was discussion of do we try and do some kind of elevator along the original"},{"t":8418,"text":"staircase? Uh do we try and ramp? So we're sort of we're we're grappling with how to make it accessible so that um if"},{"t":8425,"text":"you were in a wheelchair or uh mobility issued uh you would be able to still have access to that place. So we're on it. We're figuring it out. It is a"},{"t":8434,"text":"tricky conservation conundrum a little bit just because obviously you try your best to not impact the view from the front. Um but I think this is certainly"},{"t":8442,"text":"in the in the circumstances something that's worth finding that right compromise to balance both uh heritage preservation and conservation with um modern needs. So thank you for the question. Apologies."},{"t":8451,"text":"All right, councelor Appleton."},{"t":8453,"text":"Uh thank you worship. I think this may be more for staff. Um just picking up on something that Mr. Renick had just described just in terms of the"},{"t":8460,"text":"streetscape on uh Brighton uh which is yeah basically a through road without really any pedestrian infrastructure"},{"t":8469,"text":"right now and I know it's well used as a as a through travel corridor and as part of the greenway obviously but right now kind of bereft in especially in that"},{"t":8476,"text":"section just kind of bereft of any kind of uh real pedestrian infrastructure or real safe infrastructure. So, I'm just kind of wondering, you know, from the"},{"t":8486,"text":"from that perspective, I mean, the the I I'm not really sure what the exactly the question is, but I'm just kind of wondering about the unfinished shoulder"},{"t":8494,"text":"and kind of, you know, we don't really have very many of those left in the district. There are some, but usually there's at least a sidewalk on the other side to complement that. So kind of"},{"t":8503,"text":"wondering from an engineering and from a I guess best design perspective, are we, you know, affording a fairly significant"},{"t":8510,"text":"upgrade to the pedestrian realm which people are really concerned about along Brighton?"},{"t":8516,"text":"Mr. Rick, through the mayor to councelor Appleton, it it is an interesting location."},{"t":8522,"text":"Certainly the district added a pedestrian controlled crossing um push button to that crosswalk some years ago."},{"t":8530,"text":"It's certainly not best practice to have crosswalks that connect to areas where there is no sidewalk. Um, but I think"},{"t":8538,"text":"the wisdom uh at the time was to increase visibility given the connection to Centennial Trail. [snorts] Um,"},{"t":8546,"text":"Councelor Appleton is quite astute to note that there are not many places left in Oak Bay that have no sidewalks at all. Council did direct in December for"},{"t":8555,"text":"staff to work on a sidewalk uh upgrading and replacing prioritization framework which is underway. And really we're"},{"t":8564,"text":"looking at what is the right balance of enhancing the existing sidewalk versus filling in missing links. And so an"},{"t":8571,"text":"opportunity like this one where one of the few missing links where there's an opportunity to to fill that missing link"},{"t":8578,"text":"uh through a contribution from a developer. Uh that's ultimately um you don't get a lot of those opportunities."},{"t":8588,"text":"Thank you, Councelor Appleton. Um I just have a couple of questions I haven't heard asked and I'm curious. So I I think I appreciate the answers around the relative height of the town homes."},{"t":8597,"text":"Um um just my question was really around and I think I I can see it from the uh from the drawings that the uh buildings"},{"t":8606,"text":"uh south of the facing Fowl Road are staggered back slightly in terms of setback from the Lawson residence. I"},{"t":8614,"text":"just want to confirm that with the applicant [snorts] or Mr. Green you can"},{"t":8622,"text":"through your worship I would say that is correct."},{"t":8624,"text":"Okay. Um and just for my clarification, do we actually have know what the floor area"},{"t":8631,"text":"ratio is of the overall application? I was cited here that there was city of Victoria is allowable, but just curious what this ended up at. As it stands"},{"t":8639,"text":"currently, it's 1.2. Obviously district of OE will have different uh calculations in relation to floor rate than the city in"},{"t":8648,"text":"terms of exemptions and therefore it's I would not advise it's sometimes not advisable to compare apples with oranges so to speak. Fair. Fair. Thank you for"},{"t":8656,"text":"that that comment. Um uh and I I guess one of my I'm going to come back to the access off of fellow"},{"t":8664,"text":"day again and just [clears throat] uh in the interest of uh you know I think one of the concerns that that I heard uh in"},{"t":8671,"text":"the in the pieces from the heritage is just obviously there's benefit to having a bit of separation um of the of that building from the from the secondary"},{"t":8680,"text":"buildings. And I'm I was it seems one way that you could do that would be to put the access between that that the the house and that on on the front-facing"},{"t":8689,"text":"side of it. Um so I'm just curious if that had been thought of in the in in in the context of the benefits to the and I appreciate it might just squeeze it too"},{"t":8697,"text":"tight or something in that in that nature. Um but there has other ways of orienting buildings and so forth."},{"t":8702,"text":"Anyway, so I'll throw that to you as is that was that considered as part of the u the overall design?"},{"t":8710,"text":"Please go ahead."},{"t":8711,"text":"Uh thank you uh mayor. Yes, that um access point was certainly considered uh both to as you say create more breathing"},{"t":8719,"text":"space uh to the existing loss and residents and to uh as a result of um what we heard from the neighbors"},{"t":8726,"text":"preferring access uh from Foul Bay. Now without uh lowering the number of units uh in that block, it would likely only"},{"t":8736,"text":"be a one-way access uh from Fowl Bay. So I would assume that would be an inn from Fowl Bay. Uh but could be either. Um but"},{"t":8744,"text":"as I mentioned earlier um any sort of access points on to Fowl Bay was not the preference from staff or advisable from the traffic consultants either. Um hence"},{"t":8753,"text":"we did not pursue uh that avenue further and have stayed the course with the uh access on Brighton only."},{"t":8770,"text":"There we go. Um, you know, one of the, you know, I think real positive aspects of this is in the conversion of the Lawson House, there's a number of, as"},{"t":8777,"text":"you point out, high demand two two-bedroom, uh, single level uh, accessible um, living units. And I'm"},{"t":8785,"text":"curious if there had been any consideration in the overall uh layout of this of the site. You know, keeping perhaps the form factor of more"},{"t":8792,"text":"traditional uh architecture and even looking more like town homes, but including additional um you know uh in one of those buildings, making it more"},{"t":8801,"text":"of a multif family type building, which uh which keeps the same look, but might provide some more of those smaller units uh um that meet that demand as well."},{"t":8812,"text":"Through me to you. back to you. Thank you. Um yes, absolutely that avenue was explored uh years ago. Um sort of a"},{"t":8822,"text":"house plex type of look uh I think is what you're referring to. Um absolutely we we went far down that"},{"t":8829,"text":"rabbit hole actually. Um but truth be told um it was impossible to keep up with uh construction prices and really determining that the salailability of"},{"t":8838,"text":"those units um essentially unproven in this location and this market. Um, and realistically that without it being"},{"t":8847,"text":"upwards of four stories high, it likely would not cover itself from the sale price. So, multif family buildings built in this day and age really need to be uh"},{"t":8856,"text":"four stories and higher in order, you know, to be profitable."},{"t":8861,"text":"Thank you for that. And my last question is just related to um one of the advantages of these sorts of housing"},{"t":8868,"text":"forms is that there's often is a common space so that people living there have a place to gather and play etc. And I don't really see that in here. They're"},{"t":8876,"text":"sort of just private things. Has there been consideration of of of maybe taking the the the southerntherly point of the"},{"t":8883,"text":"of the lot where the parking is now into more of a communal space so that there is some um or perhaps if if if the size"},{"t":8891,"text":"of the building shrinks a little bit some of the edge space as as communal space so that there's some some potential there for for more social"},{"t":8898,"text":"interactions within the site itself through me to you."},{"t":8902,"text":"Thank you. Um back to you. Yes, absolutely. There is certainly some considerations that can be made. Um,"},{"t":8910,"text":"however, I might also suggest the idea that perhaps the uh boulevard area would be considered for an amenity space. It's"},{"t":8917,"text":"a much larger far uh open green space um both with the extended boulevard that"},{"t":8923,"text":"we're offering um and onto the municipal um area. It would seem to me, you know,"},{"t":8931,"text":"perhaps a better place to meet and gather with the large trees, meandering sidewalks might be a great place for a bench. Um, alternatively, as mentioned"},{"t":8939,"text":"at the corner of uh Fowl Bay and Brighton, there is some open sight space there in front of the Lawson residence."},{"t":8944,"text":"It might be a great opportunity for uh some other type of community amenity there. U community of the of the residents on the site."},{"t":8955,"text":"Thank you for that answer. I'll make a my comment on that is that I think people leaving the area to be on a boulevard is is not generally seen so"},{"t":8963,"text":"much as a as a communal space for the people living there. But I I I I hear what you're saying. That concludes my questions and I believe council brace"},{"t":8971,"text":"you had you may have some remaining question that thank you so much mayor and for you. Yeah, a couple of my questions were asked. Um one of them was around the formal assessment of"},{"t":8978,"text":"increased vehicle interaction with the Brighton greenway and its impact on pedestrian safety but we've already heard about that. The other one was around the parking spaces. I noted that"},{"t":8987,"text":"you had 39 parking spaces, but in your report, you talked about reducing automobile dependency. I wasn't really sure how those two went hand in hand."},{"t":8995,"text":"Um, but my question to you would be um about some we we had a lot of letters"},{"t":9004,"text":"and I know that you you did a lot um some um community in input um and I'm"},{"t":9011,"text":"wondering if you can speak to how the community feedback influenced uh the current design that you um that you have."},{"t":9020,"text":"Are you asking if there's anything additional to the the the page that was in the presentation? Yeah. Yeah."},{"t":9026,"text":"Is there anything else you would like to highlight, Miss Travelby, besides the the points made in the presentation?"},{"t":9032,"text":"Uh, I think the points in the presentation cover it. I mean, we certainly have continued to consult and consulting um meetings have been ongoing. Consulting doesn't ultimately"},{"t":9040,"text":"mean that every point has to be agreed to, but we've certainly have made efforts to do so. And um I think we've"},{"t":9047,"text":"gotten to a point as probably as far as we can get with the immediate group of neighbors, but uh we do feel like we've made some significant efforts to adjust"},{"t":9055,"text":"uh the tree retention um advancing privacy, everything we talked about in the slide. And now since uh hearing from the heritage commission and the design"},{"t":9064,"text":"panel, uh we do have other things to consider uh um meaning the accessibility to the loss"},{"t":9071,"text":"and residents. Um but ultimately the the issues that come up regarding open sight space and parking, it's a conundrum for us as well. Uh the community really does"},{"t":9079,"text":"seem split on thinking it's too much parking and other ones thinking it's not enough. Likewise with the Brighton Avenue exit, um it also seems very"},{"t":9088,"text":"divided. So here we are looking to you to provide further insight for consideration. Thank you, Council."},{"t":9095,"text":"Thank you. And I think that as far as the um community input goes, I I think that I'm not sure if the community would agree that they've had the chance to give a lot of input. And so that's"},{"t":9103,"text":"perhaps something that you might want to take into consideration. Um as I look at the people behind you and their reactions to what you just said, um it"},{"t":9111,"text":"might be it might behoove you to to do a little bit more on that on that respect."},{"t":9115,"text":"Um, and then my my other thing that I noticed in some of the um uh the correspondents that we received, and I think that this would probably go to the"},{"t":9123,"text":"staff. Um, and I'm wondering if you can maybe clarify how this proposal meets the intent of an H rather than what it"},{"t":9131,"text":"seems to be um functioning as a deacto reszoning tool. And that's seems to be what a lot of the people in in the"},{"t":9138,"text":"letters were were um referring to as well that it's you know what what's what's the difference between um the intent of this as an H um rather than"},{"t":9147,"text":"this being more of a um deacto resoning tool please and thank you Mr."},{"t":9154,"text":"through your worship to counc a de facto reszoning tool with the exception it doesn't change the zoning"},{"t":9162,"text":"on the land but I guess essential it's a a negotiation between an applicant and the district and in exchange for"},{"t":9170,"text":"additional density the district receives community benefits in this case the designation of a a significant heritage property uh and therefore in exchange"},{"t":9180,"text":"for the density so it does act in the same way is residentification but doesn't change the zoning. It's a legal agreement that's signed between the two"},{"t":9188,"text":"parties that stipulate certain requirements. Thanks, Mayor."},{"t":9192,"text":"Thank you. Sorry, I had one other question. It's really a design question and I was just uh struck on the west facing ends of the building. So, the"},{"t":9201,"text":"side of the buildings, the the two town homes, um I think probably for purposes of privacy, but uh they have no visible"},{"t":9209,"text":"windows on them, which is going to be a very vertical slab. And I'm just curious if there's been consideration of from a"},{"t":9218,"text":"design element, even if they were translucent windows or something that would provide a less um because they're quite close to the property lines, if there's consideration of either"},{"t":9226,"text":"articulation, you know, some sort of glazing other things there that would make uh that face more welcoming to the neighbors."},{"t":9233,"text":"Miss Treble."},{"t":9235,"text":"Uh thank you for the question. Yes. Uh certainly it's uh again a juxiposition between privacy um versus letting light"},{"t":9243,"text":"in. Uh the setback uh to the west there is the same as was approved in the 2018 proposal. Um but certainly uh thank you"},{"t":9250,"text":"for the comment and we'll take into consideration adding some glazing uh and articulation to the end units."},{"t":9257,"text":"Thank you for that. Um yeah and I think they're higher buildings and were proposed in the original thing. So, so I think that that sense of of looming can"},{"t":9265,"text":"can be more intense on those. So, thank you for that. Um, I don't see any other questions. I I do rec recognize here and in the interest of time um the"},{"t":9273,"text":"recommendation here from staff is a to send it back to work with the applicant to deal with some of these there is a a list of of considerations that that um"},{"t":9282,"text":"based on the feedback from planning commission and and um and so forth to go back and and and have a dialogue about some of these pieces. Um, I'm I think"},{"t":9291,"text":"probably worthwhile if there's anything here that people do not want to see that discussion to happen. Um, that is probably uh worthwhile to have. Um, but"},{"t":9300,"text":"I or if the if the will of council is just to forward it as is, that's another thing. But I think it's probably enough here to to send it back for some additional work. Before I go to the next"},{"t":9309,"text":"reform motion, I just realized there was one other question I had and that was one of these is a submission of a tenant assistance plan. Can I just get some"},{"t":9317,"text":"clarification of what that would look like from you, Mr. Green?"},{"t":9322,"text":"Um, I guess in this case we the district doesn't have a formal tenant assistance policy, but we would be looking to the"},{"t":9328,"text":"applicant to uh suggest or make a formal plan as to how those existing tenants would be dealt with in due course both"},{"t":9337,"text":"in terms of communication or financial assistance or first refusal. Oh, I see. Okay. So this is for the existing tenants in in managing their transition"},{"t":9345,"text":"out to the property. Okay. Thank you for that clarification. Go ahead, councelor Green."},{"t":9349,"text":"Thank you. My question was just on on procedures. So we have two recommendations. Is there a third recommendation? Will this come back to council at the end of the day?"},{"t":9358,"text":"So uh yeah, my my recommendation here would be that I think we move uh the first part of this which is that refer"},{"t":9366,"text":"the application back to staff. If we leave it just there, it will come back here. Or we can make explicit if you want to be clear to the public that this will be coming back to staff. We could"},{"t":9374,"text":"just revise the language and I thought of some language that would do that. If we want to make clear that this would come back to council, not just directly to to bylaw revisions."},{"t":9383,"text":"Yes. And and my rationale for asking that question is that we have had a very robust response in writing from this"},{"t":9390,"text":"community. So I I I think it behooves us to to have oversight at the very end of the day. Thank you."},{"t":9398,"text":"So, I'm going to suggest that somebody move the first part of this recommendation to refer the applications to staff with these this list of pieces."},{"t":9405,"text":"Council Watson."},{"t":9407,"text":"Yes, I would move it. I would want to amend the list. So, I just procedurally I'll put it on the floor for a seconder and then I would I would want to make move some amendments as well."},{"t":9416,"text":"Yep. That's procedurally appropriate, I think. Um, so moved. Is there a second?"},{"t":9420,"text":"Okay. Thank you. Um, before I go to the amendment portion, councelor Watson, uh, is there, uh,"},{"t":9429,"text":"anything that people wish to add to this list? I'll probably go there first and I'll think you're probably looking at removing some of the things from the list. Councelor Smart,"},{"t":9436,"text":"I wonder if at this time I could just share some more of the comments from the advisory design panel because I think that might impact um, some of the discussion we're about to have and I haven't had a chance to share that yet."},{"t":9447,"text":"Sure. Procedurally here comments are in order. So, I'll go to go ahead. Thank you. Um I I just wanted to share because the uh discussion at the advisory design"},{"t":9456,"text":"panel was very wholesome um and and more complex than what is um portrayed in the report. So I did just take some notes"},{"t":9463,"text":"that I wanted to share with you. So the advisory design panel discussed overall an appreciation for how heritage revitalizations can preserve the charm"},{"t":9472,"text":"of Oak Bay, appreciation for adding housing units to our community, appreciation for the diversity of those housing units. Uh they discussed the"},{"t":9480,"text":"various ways that the project could be improved such as permeable surfacing, accessible strata units, and minimizing the massing with an acknowledgment of"},{"t":9489,"text":"not wanting to ask too much more and to prioritize what was really important, which would be allowing for a heritage revitalization and additional housing."},{"t":9499,"text":"The group generally wanted the project to proceed economically and did not um want to suggest so many improvements that the project either would become"},{"t":9507,"text":"financially unfeasible or end up having higher cost housing due to increased costs of the project. Um but it is"},{"t":9514,"text":"notable that there were some members uh of the group that were concerned about the overall scale of the project. Uh and this did lead to discussion around"},{"t":9522,"text":"reducing the height of the new uh town houses uh by vaultting the upper floor ceiling to bring the roof down uh in a"},{"t":9529,"text":"similar fashion to the heritage building on the site. And additionally, there was a a broad discussion around um uh the"},{"t":9537,"text":"benefit of reducing the parking to allow for more on-site permeability and green space."},{"t":9544,"text":"Thank you for that."},{"t":9547,"text":"U we have a motion on the floor with this list pieces. Go ahead, councelor Washington. Watson, if you wish to make a change."},{"t":9553,"text":"Yes, I would like to to that very last point from councelor SM. The one thing I would like to suggest and it is kind of in there um under D, but reduction in"},{"t":9562,"text":"the impermanable surface coverage but with consideration of reducing the on-site parking provided because I think that might provide more."},{"t":9573,"text":"Before I get a seconder, I'm just going to ask if that's necessary or if it's sort of implied by the by the piece or if the staff have that flexibility without the addition. But council Mr."},{"t":9583,"text":"Green, does that add beneficial clarity or is that uh Yeah, absolutely. I think that provides greater clarity to uh help both staff"},{"t":9591,"text":"and the applicant to come back with a revised proposal for council's consolidation."},{"t":9596,"text":"So the motion would be to to add to the language of the reduction of impermeable surface including the possible reduction of of parking. Okay."},{"t":9606,"text":"Move and seconded for the for discussion. Any discussion?"},{"t":9612,"text":"I would just add since I I moved this that I think that you know the applicant has spoken about the the fact that this is a highly transit accessible location."},{"t":9621,"text":"It's got about six bus roads, six bus routes in very close proximity and cycling infrastructure that's being developed. And I just think that we want"},{"t":9629,"text":"to be encouraging that. And I know that the applicant is the one with the market knowledge, but I also think that um"},{"t":9637,"text":"what's happened on the site is that it's become so tight in terms of its ease between units and space for the obl the"},{"t":9645,"text":"for the for the for the residents and the parking is partly driving that and I think there may be a a slightly improved"},{"t":9653,"text":"solution that solves a lot of problems and recognizes that it's an highly transit um oriented area part of our community."},{"t":9662,"text":"Have councelor Smart and then councelor Patterson. Councelor Braithweight, sorry."},{"t":9666,"text":"Yeah, thank you. I appreciate this coming forward because I I think we may have different views of this around the table and I am supportive of this amendment. Um, reading through the"},{"t":9675,"text":"letters from the community, um, there's a lot of concerns around, uh, the impermability on the site, uh, the lack"},{"t":9682,"text":"of green space and also the lack of, um, uh, you know, quality of living and community a many amenity space on the interior. And all of those things could"},{"t":9691,"text":"be addressed uh, with less parking. Uh and so I think it's really important that as a council we can give this clear message to the applicant that this is"},{"t":9699,"text":"something um that we would later support when we see the application again. So I do support this."},{"t":9707,"text":"Thank you, mayor. Um yeah, I I'm not going to vote for this amendment. And the reasons that I'm not going to vote for it is that um number one, I think"},{"t":9715,"text":"that the density of this space should be reduced. So that would reduce the number of parking spots. Um and I think that um"},{"t":9722,"text":"Miss Travelby has spoken as to why she is including those uh that amount of um parking spaces and it's and I see it"},{"t":9731,"text":"myself in other communities uh where families um and these units are going to be specifically for families um do need"},{"t":9739,"text":"that extra um space for all of their things that they use, their skis, their their bicycles, their everything. And"},{"t":9746,"text":"and my own daughter and her husband have the same thing. They have a very large garage in the community that they live in. They have one car, but the rest of the garage is filled with lots of"},{"t":9754,"text":"different things, and that's that other parking spot that that they have in their unit. Um, so I am going to be voting against this, but it's basically"},{"t":9762,"text":"also because I I think that the number of units on this space should be reduced and that will also reduce the number of parking spots."},{"t":9770,"text":"Councelor Green."},{"t":9772,"text":"Yes, thank you. I really appreciate the intent of of of this amendment, but um the the one thing that the Heritage"},{"t":9780,"text":"Commission was really concerned about were were the number of units and they really made that very clear that they would like to see a reduction from 16 to"},{"t":9788,"text":"12 that as councelor Braithweight mentions would thereby reduce the number of parking spots on the site. I think"},{"t":9796,"text":"there is an overall concern about massing and scale and um in an established neighborhood like this one."},{"t":9803,"text":"So I cannot support it. Thank you."},{"t":9806,"text":"Thank you. Uh before I go to second time speakers, I'm look for any first- time speakers on this in the motion to amend to include the uh allowance. I will"},{"t":9815,"text":"leave it that way of reducing the parking. Um I'll speak to it briefly before I go back to you. Councelor Smart. I I'm going to support this"},{"t":9822,"text":"motion. And I I say that not because I think these should be all converted from two to one unit garages. I do think"},{"t":9829,"text":"though there is some potential flexibility in the in the use of particularly the the ground level parking on the site. Um it may allow for"},{"t":9837,"text":"a bit of relaxation from say the western setback if that was you know moved uh out a little bit from the sideyard. It could allow if there was just conversion"},{"t":9845,"text":"of a maybe if there's one whatever many that is 10 or so parking spots they were converted to angle parking spots um you might reduce it by a couple but might"},{"t":9853,"text":"allow for some relaxation. So, I think there's some things there that I see as being beneficial and and again, I think there is some benefit of some communal green space, some play area for for"},{"t":9862,"text":"children and so forth on the site and that may just require again a loss of a few uh two or more uh above ground parking spots. And I think that's an"},{"t":9870,"text":"important to be clear that that's acceptable uh if those changes were to happen. So, I am supportive of that motion. I I don't think dramatic"},{"t":9878,"text":"reduction um but I think some flexibility there is in order from my perspective."},{"t":9883,"text":"Councelor Smart, do you want to add something else?"},{"t":9886,"text":"Uh, thank you. You so articulately said exactly what I was going to say. It's it's about providing flex flexibility."},{"t":9892,"text":"It may or may not be needed, but it's, you know, maybe there's an area where there could be a basketball hoop or a picnic table or and I just want to give"},{"t":9899,"text":"that flexibility. Um, maybe there's a tree that can be saved. So, thanks."},{"t":9904,"text":"And I and I do recognize that there is in the first part of this motion uh strategies such as reduced massing, building height, and reduced number of town houses. So that's not excluding"},{"t":9913,"text":"that. It's a possibility of a of of of achieving this. So uh so the motion is to amend that. Uh I'm going to call the question then on on the motion which"},{"t":9921,"text":"would include the language allow or for provision possible parking reduction."},{"t":9926,"text":"All those in favor and those opposed have council green and grace to post."},{"t":9931,"text":"That does carry. So we have the revised motion in front of us now."},{"t":9936,"text":"I'd also Yeah, I'd like to um add into that motion um that uh staff work with the applicants on revisions including"},{"t":9945,"text":"reducing the overall density and number of units to better align with the official community plan and neighborhood context. So, it's already in the motion."},{"t":9952,"text":"Is it in there already? I didn't see it in the first point. It's uh reduced massing overall building height and reduced number of town houses. Oh, thank you."},{"t":9961,"text":"Anything else? Uh is there tree reduction in there? Tree retention in there that I missed."},{"t":9967,"text":"Um if just reduction in the impermeable surface coverage. Is there anything related to the trees?"},{"t":9972,"text":"Okay. So perhaps then I would add in there enhanced tree retention including retention of significant Gary oak trees and minimizing off-site impacts supported by updated arborist analysis."},{"t":9985,"text":"Can I get you to read that again just so um enhancing tree retention including retention of significant Gary oak trees"},{"t":9992,"text":"and minimizing off-site impacts supported by updated arborist analysis."},{"t":10000,"text":"Okay, I'm I'm might just I think the last part of that the supported by updated arburist analysis may just be yeah that may be sufficient in the existing information."},{"t":10009,"text":"So I'll end it at minimizing offse offsite impacts. Okay."},{"t":10015,"text":"And I'm sure Yeah. So, there's a move or seconded. Thank you. I can just get you to motivate just clear about what you're asking for."},{"t":10020,"text":"Yeah. I just think that we should um look at ways of enhancing that tree retention. Um I think that there's a lot I think we heard there was 23 or 28"},{"t":10029,"text":"trees being removed. Um I'd like to see that um uh um not as many trees being removed. And also we also heard that"},{"t":10037,"text":"there was going to be some impact on surrounding trees on surrounding properties. And I'd like that to um be looked at as well, please. I"},{"t":10044,"text":"think we heard that there was not much in the way of off-site tree impact, but I think the motion if passed would would"},{"t":10052,"text":"clarify that that that ask. It's moved and seconded. Is there a discussion?"},{"t":10059,"text":"Councelor Smart."},{"t":10061,"text":"Yeah, thank you. I I appreciate the intent um behind this motion. Um but I won't be supporting it because I'm a bit"},{"t":10068,"text":"concerned about um the process that the applicant is going to be going through with with all of"},{"t":10075,"text":"these items and not knowing enough about the plan to know whether there's significant Gary Oaks that can be saved."},{"t":10083,"text":"So, I'm [sighs] Yeah, I'm just um I feel like the long list of things that that staff has"},{"t":10091,"text":"suggested and the conversation we'd have would already lead us in that direction."},{"t":10096,"text":"So, I I I'm I'm not comfortable with adding this to the list. Any other speakers? Councelor Watson."},{"t":10104,"text":"Yes. I just want to add to that. I I um that we've just heard councelor SM give us a a bit of a summary of the"},{"t":10113,"text":"discussion of the advisory design panel and we have the heritage commission who's come in with really this set of recommendations. So we have these advisory groups who are saying yes this"},{"t":10122,"text":"this proposal needs some change but if you put too many things on the list then you're really asking for a wholesale redesign and I don't think that's what"},{"t":10129,"text":"we're trying to ask for. So I think I would like to just stop with the list we've got and I I understand councelor Braithweight's intent but I think that"},{"t":10137,"text":"in thinking this through already with the additional kind of constraints and reconsiderations we're asking for we're going to get something different back."},{"t":10145,"text":"So I'm okay with that."},{"t":10147,"text":"Thank you uh councelor Appleton the Patterson."},{"t":10151,"text":"Thank you worship. So yeah, I I won't support the amendment just from the perspective of um I would have some concerns about the potential constraints"},{"t":10159,"text":"that it could offer to creative design and adapting this design kind of as has been spoken to already. Um and the other"},{"t":10167,"text":"component here which has been spoken to a number of times is the subdivision piece. uh when I contrast what types of"},{"t":10175,"text":"trees might be entrained in in the development with what is proposed in front of us as compared to what a potential subdivision uh would capture"},{"t":10183,"text":"and what would be within the building envelope of three additional separate buildings um could potentially impact"},{"t":10190,"text":"the site into an even greater extent. So when I contrast those two things, um I I think what's already captured in this is"},{"t":10198,"text":"a reduction in the imperial surface coverage and potential, you know, redesign of the site overall or tweaking"},{"t":10205,"text":"of the site overall. So I'm comfortable with that, your worship."},{"t":10210,"text":"Thank you, Councelor Appleton. I have councelor Patterson."},{"t":10214,"text":"Yes. Thank you, Mayor. I I will not be supporting the amendment put forward uh primarily for the same reasons I've"},{"t":10221,"text":"heard everyone else say, but I really I think that the list that we have right now to to have staff go back and work"},{"t":10227,"text":"with the app applicant uh covers all of the critical items that the that the"},{"t":10234,"text":"committees have put forward to us. So I think it it it is important that we try"},{"t":10241,"text":"to achieve those targets and the trying to maintain the all of the tree canopy"},{"t":10249,"text":"is is kind of at odds and you you would have to put the cart before the you know you'd have to decide which would have a priority and I think the list that is"},{"t":10257,"text":"there that has been compiled from what the committees have put forward is the"},{"t":10263,"text":"primary list that we should be trying to find solutions for. Thank you."},{"t":10269,"text":"Any other discussion? Council Green, I I will support the motion. Um tree preservation, tree academy was um one of"},{"t":10278,"text":"the critical points made by the heritage commission and I'm reminded that the heritage commission has a different perspective from the advisory design"},{"t":10286,"text":"panel. So let's let's make sure that we understand the fundamental difference between the two panels. And I know that"},{"t":10293,"text":"this was a difficult discussion and and decision for the Heritage Commission and um and those were not just"},{"t":10300,"text":"considerations. They were essentially conditional approval based on some of the things that we talked about. So I cannot um I I will support this motion."},{"t":10311,"text":"So on the motion to amend to include the language around um prioritizing retention of trees, uh I'm actually I am"},{"t":10318,"text":"supportive of the motion and I I am I'm not convinced that that we're going to see any substantive change in that direction. I think what I heard from the"},{"t":10326,"text":"applicant was that there's been a lot of thoughtfulness going into particularly protecting the neighboring trees and so forth. Uh that being said, I would I support it largely because I think if"},{"t":10335,"text":"we're asking for a balance of values to go back and and have that conversation, um I would s to me and I uh I would I"},{"t":10343,"text":"feel like if there was a shift or a give or take that retained some trees, that was that is an amenity to the community."},{"t":10350,"text":"And so that's how I look at this as more of a my direction back on supporting it would be I this is an amenity that could maybe get some some trade-off with some"},{"t":10358,"text":"other things. So that's part of it. Um, that being said, I it doesn't sound like it'll pass anyway, but that's okay. Um, I do think that I'm not saying that in"},{"t":10367,"text":"in in this in hearing what I've heard and seeing the plan. I'm not sitting here from a position of being overly concerned with the with the planting"},{"t":10375,"text":"pieces. Um, but I I just I I support the motion as it is for those reasons."},{"t":10381,"text":"I'm going to call the question that on the amendment to add the tree language in there. All those in favor and those opposed. I have councelor Watson, Appleton, Patterson and Smart opposed."},{"t":10392,"text":"That carries. Uh so it's defeated. Uh so it does not that amendment does not carry forward. We are now left with a"},{"t":10400,"text":"motion to refer this back to staff with these directions. Is there any other discussion before I call the question? Councelor Smart."},{"t":10408,"text":"Yeah, thank you. I just wanted to um provide my comments on why I will be supporting the main motion. Um sure. Let me just see if there's any"},{"t":10416,"text":"other motions to amend first and then I'll go to general comments. I don't see any. So please go ahead and and at this point the whole motion is on the floor and and comments are welcome. So please go ahead councelor Smart."},{"t":10429,"text":"Um this applicant could have taken a simpler process and um potentially demolished this heritage home and built"},{"t":10436,"text":"town houses according to SM SSMU. Um so it is fortunate that the applicant is here utilizing an HR uh to propose"},{"t":10444,"text":"preserving this heritage house. Heritage revitalizations are expensive and in this case additional density helps to pay for the heritage revitalization."},{"t":10454,"text":"In discussions with neighbors, uh there is great support for revitalization, revitalizing the home and providing more housing. Uh and there is a great desire"},{"t":10463,"text":"to have more green space, permeability and reduced massing and an opportunity for accessibility of"},{"t":10470,"text":"units. Um like the advisory design panel, I agree that the concept of adding more housing uh to the site is"},{"t":10477,"text":"supportable if the massing is reduced to be subservient to the heritage building and more [snorts] green space and permeability is introduced uh and a that"},{"t":10487,"text":"there's a uh greater um priority of this permeability over so much paved area. Uh"},{"t":10495,"text":"so the revisions summarized um by staff um that are forward in that are included in this um current motion do address the"},{"t":10503,"text":"major concerns that that I have heard with this project. Um and I wanted for the applicant and for staff's benefit to"},{"t":10510,"text":"clarify my particular position on the parking um and units as I imagine we might have some varied opinions around"},{"t":10517,"text":"the table. This has come up already and been clarified in councelor Watson's motion. Um, but I am uh uh supportive of"},{"t":10526,"text":"um losing um parking in favor of the permeable um and green space introduction and I'm supportive of"},{"t":10533,"text":"reducing the massing. But I did want to clarify that this may or may not need to be an overall reduction in the number of"},{"t":10540,"text":"units uh because there may be very different creative solutions that the applicant brings forward that may see"},{"t":10548,"text":"smaller units with stacked units and town houses or multiplex housing solutions that could result in a reduced massing but the same number of units."},{"t":10557,"text":"So, I just wanted to clarify from my perspective um that um I see the staff's motion as actually giving a great amount"},{"t":10564,"text":"of freedom for how that reduced massing on the site that the community is asking for could be achieved."},{"t":10572,"text":"Wraith."},{"t":10574,"text":"Uh thanks, mayor. Um I do want to start by saying that I I do support the goals behind this application, particularly the retention of the heritage building"},{"t":10581,"text":"and the addition of new housing in our community. Um, however, I I continue to struggle with whether this proposal represents the right fit for this site"},{"t":10590,"text":"and whether a small redesign will be acceptable. I think it needs really truly a complete redesign. So, I'm going to be voting against the motion. Um,"},{"t":10598,"text":"what stands out to me is uh is the extent of the departure from what our zoning and our recently adopted OCP would typically support. Moving from"},{"t":10606,"text":"four units to 24 units is not a modest increase. It's a fundamental shift in scale. And I'm not yet convinced that the rationale for that level of density"},{"t":10615,"text":"has been fully demonstrated for this site. I'm also concerned about how that density is being achieved. The site planning appears to be very tight with"},{"t":10623,"text":"reduced setbacks, significant building massing, and a layout that's heavily driven by vehicle access. The internal court courtyard in particular seems to"},{"t":10632,"text":"function more as a circulation space than as a meaningful outdoor amenity for residents. From an environmental perspective, the potential loss of uh"},{"t":10641,"text":"significant Gary Oak trees and a reduction in landscape um area are difficult to reconcile with the character of this part of Oak Bay, which"},{"t":10649,"text":"is defined in large part by its natural setting. What I find particularly important is that we've seen evidence that a different approach may be"},{"t":10656,"text":"possible, one that still delivers additional housing and retains the heritage building, but does not do so at a more but does so at a more moderate"},{"t":10665,"text":"scale and with a design that better reflects the site and its surroundings."},{"t":10669,"text":"So for me, it isn't a question of whether the development should happen here. It's whether this is the right version of it. And at this point, I don't believe the balance is there yet"},{"t":10677,"text":"between density, livability, environmental impact, and neighborhood fit. So, I do think um that there is"},{"t":10684,"text":"potential for a revised proposal that could better achieve these objectives, but I'm not able to support this one as"},{"t":10690,"text":"it stands. And I I and and I don't think that by sending it back to you in this format that we'll get something back"},{"t":10699,"text":"that I think is going to be acceptable to the community. Um, so really this feels less like a carefully balanced proposal and more like a maximized one"},{"t":10707,"text":"and I think there's an opportunity to do a lot better on this site. So thank you."},{"t":10711,"text":"Thank you. Anybody else? Councelor Green then Watson."},{"t":10715,"text":"Everybody. [clears throat] Thank you."},{"t":10716,"text":"Yeah, just Yep. That's fine. I'm going to ask that we just do an extension of this meeting until uh we're going to have to probably go to 11 for this item, but for the to get everything through."},{"t":10724,"text":"So I can just have a motion to move to extend. Move. Second."},{"t":10728,"text":"All those in favor? Any opposed? Un opposed. We will this item will not take that long. Uh please go ahead councelor."},{"t":10734,"text":"I will keep my comments brief. I think councelor Braithweight has articulate articulated a lot of what I am feeling about this application. I also uh was"},{"t":10743,"text":"struck by the robustness of the feedback from the community. I read every single piece of correspondence and it was"},{"t":10750,"text":"overwhelmingly basically saying opposed to this version of density but not opposed to um developing this site. And"},{"t":10758,"text":"I think it's just the scale massing and and some of the green space and tree canopy issues that are really overwhelming. And this is an established"},{"t":10766,"text":"neighborhood. It may be on the edge of Fowl Bay Road, but if you walk that trail, and I have a few times, many times, it you you move right into an"},{"t":10775,"text":"established neighborhood with older homes and and um quiet streets. So, I think there is concern about traffic"},{"t":10782,"text":"access to and from the site. Um, someone had an interesting idea and that was to make it a one-way access off foul bay"},{"t":10791,"text":"and um uh exiting onto Brighton so that it was just continuous flow. The other thing uh"},{"t":10800,"text":"I think that people are concerned about is the amount of traffic with the closure of Richardson with the um closure of Quamichan off Bal Bay. Um if you turn left, you can't do that now."},{"t":10811,"text":"And then if you look at the density that is being planned behind the Oak Bay bicycle building, um that area is going"},{"t":10820,"text":"to be incredibly um congested at peak, especially at peak period. So I think the concerns around public safety and"},{"t":10827,"text":"pedestrian safety are legitimate. Um we are talking about high density on green space, tree canopy, the integrity of the"},{"t":10836,"text":"HR, the Brighton greenway. um and in also the context of an established"},{"t":10843,"text":"neighborhood. Um and then the height um compared to the height of the Lawson home. I think that was a huge piece and"},{"t":10852,"text":"um this again is a difficult decision because a lot of the things included in staff recommendations which I really"},{"t":10859,"text":"appreciated um are things that I would like to see in any development on that site, not just this one. Um, but I think"},{"t":10867,"text":"really at the end of the day, um, I am I'm I'm really struck by the community feedback and concern and by the concern"},{"t":10875,"text":"expressed at the Heritage Commission as well. Thank you."},{"t":10880,"text":"Thank you, Council Green. Councelor Watson."},{"t":10882,"text":"Yes, thank you. Um I am really um really pleased that the the presentation and"},{"t":10890,"text":"the report that came to us tonight had this list of recommendations which had thought through the concerns that had"},{"t":10897,"text":"been raised and discussed. I think both by staff but also at our two advisory bodies and I think they represent a fair"},{"t":10904,"text":"request back to the applicant for a site that council should have should anticipate has to be considered as a"},{"t":10912,"text":"package deal. If we want to keep the house um then we need a comprehensive redevelopment of the overall site. Um I"},{"t":10920,"text":"I think it's important to bear in mind that if we don't want that the this applicant can go away and do quite"},{"t":10928,"text":"economically uh probably an all right uh development of three or four lots and but that's not really what we want. So,"},{"t":10936,"text":"I think it's reasonable to ask for certain things and reconsideration, but if we push too much, we're going to say goodbye to what what could be an"},{"t":10944,"text":"economic proposal for the applicant and get something that we don't want. Um, I think this is a reasonable list of"},{"t":10951,"text":"requests for reworking and I think that not only um does this bring um uh more"},{"t":10958,"text":"housing to the community. I think that there's also some significant actual community benefit that will come from some of the from how um the public space"},{"t":10967,"text":"on Brighton Brighton Greenway is actually on Brighton Lane on the greenway is actually addressed that we wouldn't be getting otherwise. So I think that that's actually a really an"},{"t":10975,"text":"important plus of this. I also just want to caution that um the the public every person who's"},{"t":10984,"text":"written to us has their own concerns and view about what is going on in the neighborhood. And one of the concerns that we we often hear when this kind of"},{"t":10992,"text":"development is proposed is it's going to be too busy. We can't manage the traffic. Things are already out of"},{"t":10999,"text":"control. And I I just want to caution council about that. WAT prepared a very thoughtful traffic study. It looked at"},{"t":11007,"text":"what the situation actually is. It updated the data recently. It looked at all the surrounding development and factored that into their analysis. And I"},{"t":11016,"text":"I just caution us as to starting to become the experts oursel. We're not. We have professionals who actually do that"},{"t":11023,"text":"work and provide good advice about what the what the implications are. and from this particular development as presented"},{"t":11032,"text":"there are really very it's insignificant. So I I I just want council to pay attention to that. Um,"},{"t":11039,"text":"and so I think that the the list of things we've got, our bullet points from A to to G are a reasonable set of"},{"t":11046,"text":"request to come back with something that could create a really nice development that provides good housing, open space,"},{"t":11054,"text":"some ease, and actually makes really good use of that corner corner lot. It's a very unusual lot. It's a beautiful opportunity um to save this house and to"},{"t":11063,"text":"bring more housing into that part of Oak Bay."},{"t":11068,"text":"Thank you, councelor Watson. I have councelor Patterson. Councelor Apple."},{"t":11072,"text":"Oh, sorry. I didn't have you down, but you're right. I think you were councelor Appleton and Patterson. Go ahead. Thank you, your worship. Yeah. So, I I'm in"},{"t":11080,"text":"support of sending this back in support of the motion that's in front of us. I want to really, you know, it's first of all, what the motion on the floor has"},{"t":11089,"text":"specific provisions in it that respond directly to comments that were made by citizens advisory bodies to council. So it isn't just moving forward with an"},{"t":11097,"text":"existing design as presented by the developer. It's been presented and as I have heard really uh substantively uh"},{"t":11105,"text":"discussed and reviewed by our citizens advisory bodies who have provided their input to council. It's been taken up in this particular recommendation. So I'm"},{"t":11112,"text":"very pleased about that. Um in terms of some of the concerns that have been raised about the development, there are"},{"t":11118,"text":"some things about this that um that are just factual moving forward. First of all, those that are concerned about the"},{"t":11126,"text":"long-term preservation of the loss in residence, um this is effectively the only way to uh generate the type of"},{"t":11134,"text":"resources required to retain that residence. If you are uh interested in sort of the value of that as a heritage"},{"t":11141,"text":"feature in our community as I am, this is the the way forward and H is the is the way forward to do that. there is no"},{"t":11149,"text":"uh effective way to to do that uh to generate those kinds of resources. So I'm I'm in favor of that. So there is not a very clear option economically."},{"t":11158,"text":"Council has seen many projects of this type and similar. There is not a a way forward that involves this house being"},{"t":11166,"text":"revitalized. It does not involve a fairly significant change of the design of the property. Uh the second thing is"},{"t":11173,"text":"with respect to uh safety and access along the Brighton greenway and I hear that loud and clear. I use the I use the"},{"t":11181,"text":"space myself. Um I have concerns about the way that it currently is and as staff have spoken to and as people have mentioned, they would like to see those"},{"t":11189,"text":"public space improvements. This is a very clear and tangible improvement to the public space along the Brighton"},{"t":11197,"text":"Greenway. It fits really clearly with what we want to do for active transportation and getting people around the community and services uh from adjacent communities and to the village."},{"t":11207,"text":"There's a lot of upside as far as that public space improvement. This is if we're going to talk about a d a dense development like this one. This and I I hear people's concerns about density."},{"t":11217,"text":"There is really no other location in the community which is as suitable for this type of thing as this location because"},{"t":11225,"text":"it is so close to the village because it is so walkable because it's directly in accessing an active transportation corridor and it's so close to transit."},{"t":11234,"text":"So if we're going to be concerned about sort of what changes uh density will bring or where you're going to put"},{"t":11241,"text":"density, this is really the most appropriate location in my mind to put it. I want to be really really clear"},{"t":11248,"text":"here with the community as well about the redesign of the property. Again, with the way that the provincial"},{"t":11255,"text":"legislation uh decrees that we uh that we conduct development with small-scale multi-unit, this lot can be subdivided"},{"t":11262,"text":"as has been spoken to many times. This lot can be subdivided. It can have multiple different residences put on it that will bring the total square footage"},{"t":11272,"text":"on the current property up to uh essentially what is presented here or by my account within about 6 to 7% of"},{"t":11280,"text":"what's being proposed here. Um and there will be commensurate impacts to uh access provisions. You could get more"},{"t":11288,"text":"than one access depending on how those individual subdivided lots will happen."},{"t":11292,"text":"And if you are putting something into if you're putting a building envelope down on those individually subdivided lots, you're going to lose those trees and"},{"t":11300,"text":"those are not things that council will have discretion over. So I want to be really clear with the community that they're the the other alternative and I mean and you lose the heritage house."},{"t":11310,"text":"So, I want to be really clear with the community that alternatives that involve moving away from an HR and into a mo a subdivision or another type of"},{"t":11318,"text":"development on this lot will almost certainly have less positive impact and more less positive impact for the"},{"t":11325,"text":"community and less incremental uh impact as far as uh green space as what is proposed here. So, I'm interested to see"},{"t":11333,"text":"what comes back. uh and and uh I'm just I'm really uh grateful for an opportunity to retain a really"},{"t":11341,"text":"significant heritage house through this process. Thank you, worship."},{"t":11345,"text":"Thank you, Councelor Apple and Councelor Patterson."},{"t":11348,"text":"Yes. Thank you, Mayor. And I I want to certainly thank the applicant for the presentation tonight and to all of the"},{"t":11356,"text":"uh residents that sent letters. we there was a volume of mail that was received and and so certainly I appreciate the"},{"t":11364,"text":"effort of everyone and and the desire to build a good community. Um I think that a lot of for me this really comes down"},{"t":11373,"text":"to the site has a myriad of potential."},{"t":11381,"text":"But if we are doing this as an HR, that does set some guidelines that have"},{"t":11389,"text":"to be met. And um uh as we saw from the the last heritage revitalization"},{"t":11396,"text":"uh you know there are unknowns when you you are doing these and perhaps they're not as as uncertain with this"},{"t":11404,"text":"application but nevertheless there is a trade-off. An HRA is a contract to uh between the parties to achieve um the"},{"t":11413,"text":"goals of what is put forward. I think that the staff have in their recommendation captured the concerns of"},{"t":11421,"text":"uh what they heard from the the committees uh that the district has to review all of this from the heritage commission to the um uh design panel and"},{"t":11431,"text":"the advisory planning commission. And so they I think that they have captured it in a reasonable way. I too will be"},{"t":11438,"text":"interested to see what what does come back. I have expressed concerns about um"},{"t":11445,"text":"certainly pedestrian safety in the area, but I think that in this location it is it is in such a walkable part of the"},{"t":11454,"text":"community. I don't know that two I would hope that two cars are not a necessity because you can't get into a much more"},{"t":11462,"text":"walkable neighborhood and good public transit neighborhood than than this one."},{"t":11467,"text":"But it really does come down to the goal of do we really strongly desire to do an H"},{"t":11475,"text":"and have the rest of the housing that frames it have form and character that complements the existing house. um"},{"t":11484,"text":"because if we didn't do an HRA certainly there could be so many other potential options but it could change in fact"},{"t":11492,"text":"entirely the form and and character of the neighborhood. So I based on what we have and the desire to have an HRA, I"},{"t":11500,"text":"think this is a step forward to uh to getting what will work for the HRA and"},{"t":11507,"text":"hopefully can be managed in a way that present does some some adjustments to this that uh will present a good option"},{"t":11515,"text":"for it to fit into our community. So I'm supportive of it."},{"t":11520,"text":"Thank you, Councelor Patterson. I'll keep my comments brief. I am supportive of the motion. I I I do think I think it's good to remember back hearken back"},{"t":11527,"text":"to when the last application came forward to council. Uh it came before this body of previous council uh who approved it. But there was comments I"},{"t":11536,"text":"think from every person sitting around the table suggesting that the this was an opportunity with the heritage that to add town homes or something a little bit"},{"t":11544,"text":"more given how close it was to the Oak Bay Avenue. Um so I just want to reflect on that. I think what we're getting back here I think the question is always like"},{"t":11552,"text":"what is the what is then the right density and so forth and um you know what I heard a lot of in the community interest that we've heard and and you know from through the last couple of"},{"t":11560,"text":"years uh is heritage protection uh protection of the green space particularly the green space and the interface of the Brighton walkway and so"},{"t":11568,"text":"I think you know the question here are we getting it close to right and I I I think the the considerations that are being asked here to go talk about I"},{"t":11576,"text":"think we're all the right ones and I'm under no illusions that what will come back is going to be so perfect and wonderful that everybody will sing kumbaya in the whole community together."},{"t":11585,"text":"Um but I think it's it's it's got a strong base to start with and we can hope for that at least. Um the only"},{"t":11592,"text":"other thing I would just uh a couple of a couple of other comments. One I do think that given the focus on three-bedroom units which is really"},{"t":11599,"text":"intended to attract families. I I do think there is value of having some amenities there that would build build community in that space. Um and more green space in that space is beneficial."},{"t":11609,"text":"I want to uh give credit here. Um the the design uh although we're asking for perhaps some tweaks to it, the the style"},{"t":11618,"text":"of the design, the thoughtfulness of the uh of the nod to the heritage without being replicated, um the quality of the materials, [snorts] uh these are not"},{"t":11625,"text":"things that come for granted and we can take for granted. um they're very thoughtful and and and allow for a little bit more flexibility I think just"},{"t":11634,"text":"given that good design can can allow for some things like massing to happen. Um, and my last comment here, and I don't know if this is at all feasible, but it"},{"t":11642,"text":"just occurs to me in the course of this project, uh, at the northwest corner sort of at the, you know, as you're walking upright avenue, the last part on"},{"t":11650,"text":"the left, there was a beautiful rock outcropping there, uh, on that piece of property. And if there is any way, I know that the building is set back a bit from that that space. if there's"},{"t":11659,"text":"anything that can be done architecturally to kind of highlight that and and um retain it as much as possible. It's a very natural part of"},{"t":11666,"text":"that sort of rhythm of feel of rocks that you sort of walk over and around in that neighborhood. Um so if there's anything there uh that could be done"},{"t":11674,"text":"even just bumping that last building back a little bit to to give that some prominence. Just one last thought on there because that is a that is part of the rhythm of that of that stream. Um,"},{"t":11683,"text":"but I'm yeah, I'm supportive of the motion to go back and and do that work."},{"t":11686,"text":"And I'm glad that we've had the opportunity both to hear from the public uh thoroughly, to hear from our advisory bodies thoroughly and to have the conversation around this table to help"},{"t":11695,"text":"give some guidance. So, thank you to the applicants for for bringing this forward. Uh, I'm ready to call the question, I think, on the on the uh on the motion, which is at this point to"},{"t":11703,"text":"refer the application back to staff. All those in favor and opposed, councelor Braithweight, green opposed. That does"},{"t":11711,"text":"carry. Good luck with the balance of this project."},{"t":11715,"text":"And I know many people are here for this on one item, so you're welcome to leave at this time. I just ask that you don't linger in the hall and chat because we can hear it quite quite loudly in this"},{"t":11723,"text":"room. And we have to move on with our agenda item. I'm not doing"},{"t":11729,"text":"the first part doesn't say to give staff the ability to approve. So"},{"t":11738,"text":"we need to uh no the first part is to refer the applications for official comm to staff"},{"t":11746,"text":"and then the second part was have it come back here. So just for clarity of process um my read of this is the"},{"t":11753,"text":"recommendation here is to refer to staff at this point without further clarification when those revisions happen it'll come back to this table. Is that correct Mr. Green Miss Mrs. Anderson?"},{"t":11765,"text":"Oh correct. Yes that's my understanding that yeah so if we don't do the second part of that this will come back to this table without free direction. Okay"},{"t":11773,"text":"very good. Thanks. Always good to be clear for the publics and our benefits."},{"t":11777,"text":"So Yep. No, that's great. Thanks for clarifying."},{"t":11784,"text":"Okay. Thanks for the patience. We do have items that have public input coming up here. We have one more um uh or two more that do not have public input."},{"t":11792,"text":"They're just for adoption. So, if I can have uh 8.1 read into the record."},{"t":11796,"text":"I'll move that the zoning bylaw number 3531986 amendment bylaw number 49512026 be adopted."},{"t":11804,"text":"Seconded. We don't usually debate on adoption, but if there's anything that people have thought of in the sober second thought period. Okay. All those in favor? Any opposed? None opposed."},{"t":11814,"text":"And I'll streets and traffic bylaw number 4100 2000 amendment bylaw number 4955 2026 be adopted."},{"t":11824,"text":"Moved and seconded. Thank you. Same ask."},{"t":11827,"text":"See none. All those in favor? Any opposed? Opposed. Uh the following items are subject to public input. We have the 2026 tax rates bylaw. Uh we have Miss"},{"t":11836,"text":"Lance, I believe, online. Is that correct? Or is someone else filling in for that? Uh Miss Hunt, thank you very much for worship. Yes, I'll fill in."},{"t":11844,"text":"We've had a rash of sicknesses, so I'm thinking Miss Lechance is uh is off uh this evening. Uh yes, this is uh the"},{"t":11852,"text":"final step in the uh 2026 uh financial planning cycle and it is the 2026 tax rates bylaw that is before you uh uh for"},{"t":11861,"text":"passing tonight for first read three readings. Um I will leave it at that."},{"t":11867,"text":"Thank you. This is essentially procedural now that we passed the the financial plan that converts that into into the things. So can I have someone read the first and second time?"},{"t":11877,"text":"Your worship. I would move that tax rates bylaw 2026 number 4964 be read a first and second time."},{"t":11884,"text":"Seconded. Thank you. Any discussion?"},{"t":11889,"text":"Seeing none, all those in favor Oh. Oh, sorry. Before I call the question, I need to ask for public input. My apologies. Uh, is there anybody online"},{"t":11896,"text":"or in person that wishes to speak to item 9.1? This is the tax rates bylaw."},{"t":11900,"text":"This is the bylaw that converts our our tax uh or financial plan into the tax rates for this year."},{"t":11909,"text":"[snorts]"},{"t":11910,"text":"Seeing no hands, I'm going to call the question. All those in favor? Any opposed? None opposed?"},{"t":11917,"text":"Your worship, I would move that tax rate bylaw 2026 number 4964 be a third time."},{"t":11922,"text":"Moved and seconded. Uh all those in favor. Any opposed and opposed? That'll come back for adoption. I see Miss Leance has joined us online here. So, uh, if we need her, uh, she is here."},{"t":11932,"text":"Miss Le the Chance, uh, we have, uh, if you wish to do the introduction, you're welcome to. Otherwise, we can have staff in the room do that."},{"t":11943,"text":"So, we're at 9.2."},{"t":11946,"text":"Yes. Uh, thank you, your worship. Uh, so I assume that's the Boulevard tax rates."},{"t":11951,"text":"It is. And I'm sorry, my voice is betraying me. So, I'm going to um perhaps uh just suggest that uh staff in the room introduce it."},{"t":11961,"text":"Yeah, no problem. Get better. Drink lots of hot tea and honey. And Miss Hunt, over to you."},{"t":11968,"text":"Thank you very much, your worship. Uh yes, again, this flows from the 2026 financial plan and it is the uh boulevard tax rates uh for first three"},{"t":11976,"text":"readings uh to support maintenance of particular boulevards in the district."},{"t":11983,"text":"Thank you for that. Uh before I actually get the move and seconder, it is again subject to public input. We do have some correspondence on this. So I just want"},{"t":11990,"text":"to make sure people had a chance to read that. Um and anybody in the room interested in addressing council 9.2 the"},{"t":11997,"text":"boulevard tax rates amendment bylaw or online?"},{"t":12003,"text":"Not not seeing any. Um have someone read in the first and second. Your worship, I would move that Boulevard frontage tax"},{"t":12009,"text":"bylaw 1982 number 3416, amendment bylaw number 4963, 2026 be read first and second time."},{"t":12016,"text":"Second move and seconded. All those in favor? Any opposed? None opposed worship. I would further move that"},{"t":12024,"text":"Boulevard tax by line 1982 number 3416 amendment bylaw number 4963 2026 be read a third time."},{"t":12032,"text":"Move and seconded. All those in favor?"},{"t":12034,"text":"Any oppose? opposed. Um just uh in the in the piece here of the there was some correspondence suggesting that they"},{"t":12043,"text":"don't see much value from the service and it is only provided in a small portion of the community. Um uh I think it might be worthwhile just to ask for a"},{"t":12051,"text":"report back to it there's no time frame on this one but just uh an understanding of what the what the implications are of this uh program what benefit it brings."},{"t":12060,"text":"I know it does help water some boulevard trees as well, but also some of the potential costs of replacing and maintaining the the the sprinkler"},{"t":12067,"text":"systems uh and the mowing. Um it's something that usually comes up every few years in front of council and probably worthwhile uh maybe even just"},{"t":12075,"text":"for the next council to consider, but um not sure if if if other members of council are interested, but it may be worthwhile just to direct ask staff to"},{"t":12084,"text":"come back with a [snorts] report on the on just on the impacts of this program and Councelor"},{"t":12092,"text":"Smart, I I'm willing to move that motion. Would you like me to word it more precisely than Yeah. And I meant to bring a a suggested"},{"t":12100,"text":"motion here. So maybe Miss Hun, if you have something that you have you can think of would make sense, we'll use that. And if not, I might just ask that we do it as a notice of motion because"},{"t":12109,"text":"there's no urgency to it. It's just really it's just timely and it's not asking for anything big at this point."},{"t":12115,"text":"Uh yes, thank you your worship. um really looking for the outcome, you know, are you looking for options uh for us to look at phasing this out over"},{"t":12123,"text":"time? Um I or or reducing, you know, when you say reducing the impact. Um, yeah. So, just"},{"t":12131,"text":"I think it's before we get there, it's more just what is the what is the cost um and the uh of both of the the the the"},{"t":12139,"text":"program itself, but also the uh the recovery rate for that program um and the potential risks attached to it like i.e. if the sprinkler systems start"},{"t":12148,"text":"failing, what is our what are we what is our sort of cost models for it to sort of the pieces of it. Uh for those who"},{"t":12155,"text":"don't know this is a um this is covers about 27 kilometers of boulevard which is about 12 and a half% of our frontages"},{"t":12163,"text":"they build into houses. Um and it uh it's an opt out model so people don't want to use it. I can't remember the"},{"t":12170,"text":"percentage. I think it's two-thirds of the residents can just say I don't want the service and it gets turned off. But if you pay for it it's a separate fee"},{"t":12177,"text":"and it uh you pay that fee and then you get periodic mowing of the boulevard plus uh sprinkler services. So, M. Hunt."},{"t":12186,"text":"Yes, your worship. Just a note that uh we do assess the uh the cost of providing this service and the rates are"},{"t":12192,"text":"set at 75% uh cost recovery on that. Um so, just to answer that question for you. So, we do"},{"t":12199,"text":"you know what I given I did not prepare a motion arising I'm going to leave it for now. I think it may be something that can be done through a notice of motion. There's no urgency on it. So,"},{"t":12206,"text":"I'm I'm going to suggest we don't at this point as amendable. So, I'll uh take that offline. I saw it as an opportunity, but need to be better"},{"t":12214,"text":"prepared to seize the opportunities. Go ahead, Councelor Patterson."},{"t":12217,"text":"Yes, Mayor. Um, thank you for for your comments about this. I I I guess my feeling is on this. Yes, we have had correspondents questioning some of it. I"},{"t":12225,"text":"think that um it would be appropriate because it's that's really operational and and staff I think are aware of the correspondence also. So I would"},{"t":12234,"text":"anticipate that um the provision of services and the cost of that should come forward in the next financial plan"},{"t":12241,"text":"when we are looking at this specific item with that and uh because I don't think we're making any changes this year."},{"t":12248,"text":"That's fair. Okay. Uh moving on then to item 9.3. These are signed bylaw amendments. Uh we have a report here"},{"t":12255,"text":"from Mr. Renick and um uh Mr. Renick, did you wish to make a brief introduction to this item? uh just"},{"t":12263,"text":"procedurally here because we haven't had a lot of public input tonight and some people aren't quite used to how we do this. So the procedure here is normally staff give a very brief introduction."},{"t":12272,"text":"Well they some elaborate I think on this one it's a fairly short introduction and then um council will have the opportunity to ask questions at that at"},{"t":12279,"text":"the conclusion of the questions we'll invite comments from the public both online and in person and then at the conclusion of the public input we will"},{"t":12287,"text":"come back to this table and consider motions uh going forward. Um, with that, Mr. Renick, thank you for the introduction, Mr."},{"t":12295,"text":"Mayor. This staff report was brought in response to a motion carried by council at the March 9th meeting seeking to"},{"t":12304,"text":"limit how many places in public property election signs could be installed. Um, essentially looking to have some"},{"t":12311,"text":"predetermined locations that could be provided to candidates."},{"t":12316,"text":"staff um when reviewing that motion and preparing this draft bylaw wanted to ensure that residents still had the"},{"t":12324,"text":"ability to have Why am I echoey after 10 everything"},{"t":12334,"text":"in preparing the bylaw staff that's worse"},{"t":12346,"text":"Is that any better? Yeah, that's that's better. Okay."},{"t":12350,"text":"In preparing the bylaw package, staff noted that the existing bylaw allows residents to display election signs on the boulevard in front of their houses."},{"t":12361,"text":"And we felt that that should be left in because we felt that we should leave the ability for residents to choose to support a particular candidate. And in a"},{"t":12370,"text":"lot of cases in Oak Bay, the property line is quite far away from the road."},{"t":12373,"text":"And so, uh, requiring those signs to be on private property, uh, we felt that was a more significant change than what had been intended, but certainly happy to take direction from council on that."},{"t":12385,"text":"Uh in the report there's an overall map with some black stars showing the locations that were"},{"t":12393,"text":"identified. Um and I I do note that most of those locations are north of Oak Bay Avenue. And that's really being driven"},{"t":12401,"text":"by the fact that we were looking for areas that had either significant traffic islands or significant"},{"t":12409,"text":"boulevards that are not in front of schools, parks, or district-owned facilities."},{"t":12414,"text":"uh we really looked at the numbers of how many people might be running in an election and we wanted to make sure that those designated areas were large enough"},{"t":12422,"text":"to allow many candidates to have signs and and so quite frankly South Oak Bay we did not find a lot of locations that"},{"t":12431,"text":"really worked for that. Um, but essentially what we've done is we've prepared some maps and some amendments"},{"t":12437,"text":"for council's consideration and uh really just looking for feedback on whether there's locations that we"},{"t":12444,"text":"suggested that council does not like to see or whether there's additional locations that council would like to have added. Um, and I'm happy to take questions."},{"t":12454,"text":"Thank you very much, Mr. Renick. Um, I'll go to questions from members of council. Councelor Appleton."},{"t":12463,"text":"Thank you, worship. I'm not sure whe this is to Mr. Renick or maybe to corporate services, but um uh just with respect to what the uh what this"},{"t":12473,"text":"responds to, um I don't recall hearing any uh any complaints or any feedback at"},{"t":12480,"text":"the staff level about any significant issues with traffic navigation or visibility or safety concerns about the placement of election signs during last"},{"t":12488,"text":"uh election. So can staff elaborate as to whether or not sort of I mean this may also speak to bylaw enforcement and"},{"t":12496,"text":"those types of things, but what was the nature of concerns raised around the last election that would support uh this change?"},{"t":12507,"text":"Do staff have information? Please go ahead, Mr. Renick."},{"t":12510,"text":"Uh through the mayor to councelor Appleton. In preparing the report, we did speak with the bylaw compliance officer. It's noted in the staff report"},{"t":12518,"text":"that there have been seven bylaw files related to election signs since 2022. Uh three of them were for signs illegally"},{"t":12526,"text":"placed in parks and the other four related to signs being larger than the twoft x two foot sign. Uh in the 2022"},{"t":12534,"text":"general local election, there were no election related complaints or offenses recorded by bylaw staff."},{"t":12543,"text":"Thank you, worship. So, just picking up on that from uh from Mr. Renick that the the prohibition against putting signs in"},{"t":12550,"text":"parks uh and the pro the design and the design standards for size were pre-existing and aren't addressed by"},{"t":12556,"text":"this. Um I'm just um I think I'll just leave it there for now. Your worship"},{"t":12564,"text":"you are questions for staff I have one to Mr. Renick. uh and it's"},{"t":12571,"text":"just related to uh the re there's a recommendation in here and I understand the rationale but it talks about a maximum height um of 30 inches and I I"},{"t":12580,"text":"just practically speaking if if signs are two feet uh maybe it's a bit higher than that um uh practically speaking"},{"t":12589,"text":"almost all signs these days are corlass signs they almost all use the H style uh stakes which are about 23 in um above"},{"t":12598,"text":"the ground and so you'd have the 2T above that um which would put us pretty close to so I just want to make sure that we're not putting height"},{"t":12605,"text":"limitations here that prevent just what is the really almost the only option for for mounting these and I'm not sure if"},{"t":12612,"text":"staff had a chance to to look at that as a as a contributor to the to the maximum height through you."},{"t":12619,"text":"Uh thank you for the question Mr. Mayor."},{"t":12622,"text":"Ultimately, we were following the spirit of the motion, which was to have avoid having the traffic signs or have the signs impeding traffic. Uh there's a"},{"t":12631,"text":"fairly standard height for shrubs or other roadside attractions um that you don't want them to exceed 4 feet, which"},{"t":12639,"text":"is 1.2 m. What's in the draft language was 3 feet. And we were just looking for a situation of you wouldn't want to see"},{"t":12647,"text":"the twoft x two foot sign on, you know, 10 feet up into the air. But, uh, there's no particular attachment to that"},{"t":12654,"text":"three-foot suggestion. And so, if it's the will of council to amend it, um, I would suggest don't go over four."},{"t":12660,"text":"Um, but I think that works with the the type of support that uh that you just described. It does. It keeps it under four feet."},{"t":12667,"text":"So, if that's I just wanted to make sure it just it's just a practical reality of of of signs. I think anything other than that would drive costs through the"},{"t":12674,"text":"astronomical roof. So, uh, okay. Uh, thank you. Um and I think other than that I procedurally here we can deal"},{"t":12682,"text":"with this any number of ways. I know there's some suggestions for some additional uh sites uh if we're going to consider this uh naming the sites as opposed to leaving it under the"},{"t":12690,"text":"guidelines. Um if there's no more questions I'm happy to go to input from the public and then I'll come back to this table. Uh any other questions"},{"t":12699,"text":"before I go to the public? Not seeing any. Uh we had uh so this at this point we're welcoming public input. Uh I know"},{"t":12707,"text":"we had an indication for earlier that that uh one member in the room here has waited very patiently for three and a half hours to speak to council nominally"},{"t":12716,"text":"a three-minute limit. If you want to go a little bit over that I think we can grant you a bit of grace given the uh the time of day."},{"t":12724,"text":"Um thank you your worship members of council once again I can you just state your name?"},{"t":12730,"text":"Uh my name is Anton Brackage. I'm a resident of Oak Bay. Um, once again, I have serious concerns uh"},{"t":12740,"text":"regarding the proposed amendment. Um, not primarily with the restrictions on sign size and location if that's for"},{"t":12748,"text":"safety and visibility reasons. I would like to know more about what the the evidence of there being an actual traffic hazard from signs is, but if"},{"t":12757,"text":"there's a safety hazard posed by larger signs or in certain locations, fair enough. Um, also read the regarding the limit on the"},{"t":12766,"text":"number of signs per location. I think the the correspondence council received makes a valid point"},{"t":12773,"text":"about the cost of signs of of a sort of sign race being a burden on small campaigns. As a former candidate with a"},{"t":12781,"text":"lowbudget campaign, I'm very familiar with that burden. Um, that said, money spent in Oak Bay municipal races is"},{"t":12789,"text":"relatively low. Uh BC also has campaign finance limitations already. I'm not sure that's an urgent priority. My"},{"t":12797,"text":"biggest concern, however, with this is the limit on the number of locations. Um especially because we have all but one"},{"t":12805,"text":"or two of those locations in North Oak Bay. Um, I do appreciate staff's consideration of seeking spaces with"},{"t":12812,"text":"room for many candidates to put signs, but um, if you have it sort of geographically concentrated like that,"},{"t":12819,"text":"there are parts of the municipality I don't go to every week or every month."},{"t":12823,"text":"I'm sure that's true of others. Uh, this restriction, it'll limit visibility."},{"t":12828,"text":"It'll limit public awareness of the candidates. And this will actually negatively impact lesser known"},{"t":12834,"text":"candidates and favor incumbents. Um municipalities own report as we noted uh"},{"t":12842,"text":"said there is no recorded complaints in the 2022 local election. Um only seven for all elections since then and related"},{"t":12850,"text":"really to other issues. Um I'm not um the the reports predicts also no work plan or financial impact to this"},{"t":12859,"text":"change or enforcement. So what I'm just wondering is what is so pressing about this issue that it requires or justifies such a change."},{"t":12868,"text":"Uh it is a principle of a free society that restrictions on political speech should be undertaken only when there is"},{"t":12876,"text":"a pressing need and with great caution and restraint. As far as I can see, this proposed amendment would significantly"},{"t":12884,"text":"cretail political speech for largely aesthetic reasons."},{"t":12890,"text":"in a way that is likely to favor incumbent candidates against new candidates. As such, I strongly oppose this amendment in its current form."},{"t":12899,"text":"Thank you."},{"t":12901,"text":"Thank you, Mr. Bradock. Anybody else wish to speak?"},{"t":12909,"text":"So, we are on item 9.3. I don't see any hands being raised online."},{"t":12914,"text":"I am going to come back to this table at this point. Uh, see other speakers. Uh, go ahead, Councelor Smart."},{"t":12923,"text":"Yeah, thank you. I um have a motion to put forward um that staff review and select more locations"},{"t":12932,"text":"uh for signs in South Oak Bay with consideration of the locations identified in the provided map. And I"},{"t":12939,"text":"did provide a map um uh to all of council with the help of um staff at the beginning of the meeting. Um, uh, that's"},{"t":12947,"text":"the motion moved. Is there a seconder? Second. Move and second. Thank you."},{"t":12953,"text":"Um, so I might Okay, so we Yeah, we don't have a bylaw on the So procedurally here, I'm just wondering if we should"},{"t":12961,"text":"have the first and second reading on the books first. It doesn't I guess if we're going to send it back for significant changes, it makes sense to probably I'll consider in order. Yeah, please go ahead, councelor SM."},{"t":12971,"text":"Yeah, thank you. Um, I really appreciate, um, although I honestly don't support this exercise in its entirety, now that we're down this road, I really do appreciate the work that's"},{"t":12979,"text":"been done on it to date. Um, and um, it, you know, there will be some benefit to clarity going forward for everybody. Um,"},{"t":12987,"text":"I am mostly concerned about the um, equitability of this um, and uh, I don't"},{"t":12994,"text":"feel like the current locations um, represent uh, the entire geography of of the region. So, I I put together a map"},{"t":13003,"text":"that showed a lot of um locations that were used uh for signs in the previous election for staff to have um time to consider them."},{"t":13015,"text":"Thank you. Um so, the motion is to add to request the staff to add uh additional spaces. I I think uh it's certainly worthwhile talking about that."},{"t":13025,"text":"I think it may be helpful just to talk a little bit about if people had a chance to review the locations and see if they had any sort of questions. I have a couple of questions actually probably"},{"t":13032,"text":"should have asked in the in the first part u but I'll come back to that go uh comments on the motion right now. Can you just"},{"t":13040,"text":"The motion is moved and seconded. Can you just repeat the motion that staff review and select more"},{"t":13047,"text":"locations in South Oak Bay with consideration of the locations identified in the provided map."},{"t":13056,"text":"Okay, thank you. And there's a map circulated and it's printed out in front of the of council here. Councelor Appleton then Watson."},{"t":13064,"text":"Thank you, worship. So, just for my apologies. I had councelor Braithweight next."},{"t":13067,"text":"Okay. just a procedural thing your worship is that you know it's in what I understand by that motion to mean is that it essentially because it talks"},{"t":13076,"text":"about staff reviewing something that it is essentially a referral to staff that staff will take this away evaluate what has been proposed by you on the map"},{"t":13085,"text":"provided by councelor smart against the criteria that they used for their for their initial map and then return that feedback to council that is as I"},{"t":13093,"text":"understand it that is the procedural piece here correct um Councelor Braithweight and then Watson."},{"t":13100,"text":"Um, thanks Mayor. Um, I appreciate uh uh the work that um councelor uh Smart has put into this. Um, I actually was going"},{"t":13108,"text":"to reduce the number of um spaces that staff had proposed because I do agree that there's a lot in in North Oak Bay."},{"t":13116,"text":"Um, and there are pro possibly a couple of locations in South Oak Bay that I could I could look at, but I wouldn't want to look at every single one of the"},{"t":13123,"text":"locations that is being put forward. So, I struggle because I I want to take into account some of the locations that um"},{"t":13132,"text":"that councelor uh Smart is proposing, but I don't want to consider all of them. [clears throat] And I and I do want to take some away from the other um"},{"t":13141,"text":"suggestions that that that staff have made. So, I I have to vote against the the motion. Um and then hopefully we can"},{"t":13149,"text":"add some in individually and not um the one two three four five six seven that are being proposed. Um so I'll have"},{"t":13157,"text":"another motion after this one depending on what happens with this one, but I'll be voting against it. Thank you."},{"t":13162,"text":"Sure. Thank you. And I think I'm I'm I'm amendable to just having a conversation about some of these locations because I think there are some um aspects of of"},{"t":13170,"text":"pros and cons and things of that. So um don't usually go back, but go ahead, Councelor Smart."},{"t":13175,"text":"Thank you. I would just like to provide um clarification that um uh I'm not proposing that"},{"t":13182,"text":"staff put forward all of these locations. I'm proposing that staff take another look in South Oak Bay to provide more equitable options for sign"},{"t":13191,"text":"placement that is geographically um fair for the entire region. And these are just some possible ones they may want to"},{"t":13197,"text":"consider. Um, uh, I do not, um, encourage us to have a detailed discussion about each"},{"t":13205,"text":"individual location because we do not have the information in front of us from staff in order to have that conversation. Thank you, Councelor Watson. Go ahead."},{"t":13213,"text":"Um, thank you. In in terms of the motion, I will be supporting it. I just wanted to add in my comments. I mean, I fundamentally I'm really disappointed"},{"t":13222,"text":"this is even here. I don't think we have an issue. I think that's very clear. But now that we have this in front of us, we have to do something with it. And I"},{"t":13230,"text":"appreciate the speaker's remarks. Uh, and he identified some things that didn't seem to be a concern to him, but"},{"t":13237,"text":"that there wasn't a negative impact on lesserk known candidates and incumbents, particularly if only North Oak Bay was featured. And I think that's a very"},{"t":13245,"text":"valid observation. But I also wanted to just uh with respect to staff's comment that they specifically ruled out schools, school trustees will also be"},{"t":13254,"text":"allowed to place their signs in these locations and I would think it's very valid to allow them next to schools for the very reason that the people who are"},{"t":13262,"text":"running in those roles are there to support education. So I just when this goes back to staff, if that's where this"},{"t":13269,"text":"ends up, I would just ask for a sort of second sober thought about that consideration of sites because I think those are probably valuable locations"},{"t":13278,"text":"with respect to who's being elected in the next election."},{"t":13285,"text":"I have just a couple of questions arising from this one just for my clarification. one is the is the there's current limits as to where signs can go"},{"t":13293,"text":"on public property and uh is the is the limit on schools and parks current or is the is the uh is it just parks currently"},{"t":13301,"text":"that are the limitation uh through the mayor the current limitation is on municipal facilities"},{"t":13309,"text":"and parks um so that would include municipal hall lawn for example uh the thought around schools had more to do"},{"t":13317,"text":"with how often Often schools are used as polling locations and certain types of elections do not allow signs within x amount of distance of a polling place."},{"t":13328,"text":"But uh ultimately that's that was not a consideration under the current sign bylaw. But if you start restricting how"},{"t":13336,"text":"many locations you allow signs, then you have to consider that."},{"t":13340,"text":"Okay. Uh, and the other question I had was just um on the there's like there's like one or two of these sites that are"},{"t":13347,"text":"on an island sort of between a slip road and a like a slip lane and and a main road. The one at Henderson and uh or"},{"t":13355,"text":"lands down in Cadbury Bay for example and the Cedar Hill and Henderson. Um, I just wonder if those that to my mind"},{"t":13363,"text":"those are a rays that would be a considerable concern because you have, you know, traffic flowing at speed and cars trying to merge, you know, and"},{"t":13371,"text":"having their their view lines blocked. I just um that one those two surprise me as being included just because I think I would think those would be the ones that would be most at risk for for things."},{"t":13380,"text":"So, Mr. Renick, maybe push back to you on the selection of those. Uh, thank you for the question, Mr."},{"t":13385,"text":"Mayor. Again, that's that's kind of what we were considering with the height restriction. um is that most drivers"},{"t":13392,"text":"would be able to see over them. Um also the the signs are quite small and you could typically be able to see around"},{"t":13398,"text":"them. Um but those those considerations are are those points are well taken."},{"t":13404,"text":"Okay. Um and that that's there any other questions on these ones. So um we have a motion on the floor right now to send"},{"t":13411,"text":"this back for those pieces. Um I I think just if this motion passes I think just some general comments that anything else"},{"t":13419,"text":"that people would like to see or would might be you know considerations as part of the the criteria would be worthwhile. Uh go ahead councelor Appleton."},{"t":13427,"text":"Thank you worship. I just wanted to pick up on something that was mentioned earlier. Um yeah, first of all, I will just reiterate my opposition to the whole process um because it doesn't"},{"t":13436,"text":"respond to a need that's actually been identified in the community and has the and poses the risk of of potentially limiting democratic expression. But I"},{"t":13443,"text":"want to be very clear uh that I am very much opposed to individual counselors or"},{"t":13450,"text":"individual members of council selecting locations in the community that are appropriate for election signs. We are"},{"t":13458,"text":"free as a governance body to establish standards and guidelines in order to select a site, criteria that will be"},{"t":13466,"text":"used uh to select or not select a site and direct staff to identify sites that fit with established criteria. But I"},{"t":13475,"text":"have significant concerns about uh individual members of council selecting individual locations through the through"},{"t":13484,"text":"the community because it raises the potential for perception of bias your worship. So I strongly advise this"},{"t":13492,"text":"council to uh set standards and guidelines and advise staff with respect to those standards and guidelines and"},{"t":13498,"text":"allow staff to identify sites based on those criteria. Thank you, worship."},{"t":13506,"text":"Thank you, Councelor Hamilton. I I'll go to councelor Green as a first- time speaker first, then I'll come back to you."},{"t":13511,"text":"Oh, thank thank you through you to to um Miss Hunt. Miss Hunt, the last time this was before us, you mentioned that that"},{"t":13519,"text":"Kquitlam has a policy. Could you just articulate some of the details around that policy or or how it's delivered?"},{"t":13527,"text":"Thank you. Would that be helpful?"},{"t":13530,"text":"Since you have all of Kquillin's bylaws memorized, we'll just uh No, we're not putting on the spot or anything."},{"t":13537,"text":"Yeah. Through the chair to uh council green. No, sorry. I don't have the details uh at at hand. Uh I do know that"},{"t":13544,"text":"there was a limit of two signs per location. Um but in terms of uh how we selected the various locations, I don't have that at hand."},{"t":13552,"text":"Thank you. Sorry about that."},{"t":13554,"text":"I think what was raised last time was that this is a this is how Krillin did it was they basically had they named the locations as opposed to leaving the the"},{"t":13562,"text":"definitions fairly vague and letting people interpret them. Um and I I generally agree here. I think you know should be we should be setting up the"},{"t":13571,"text":"the general guidelines guiding this. And I I also don't I'm not concerned at the end of the day if we have to finally make final decisions on this. I I think we're all doing this in the best"},{"t":13579,"text":"interest of the community. Um, so I'll just I think go ahead councelor brief and then I'll make Yeah, I just I just wanted to point out I think that um what we did have before"},{"t":13588,"text":"us was a a selection of of locations that staff did bring to us and now we have a selection of of locations that a"},{"t":13595,"text":"counselor has brought to us. So I think that you know it I think that we we we were following"},{"t":13604,"text":"what staff had done and now we're trying to add in additional locations."},{"t":13610,"text":"Fair point. Uh, but here we are. We're We have the motion in front of us to ask staff to consider these additional locations. Um, there wasn't any firm"},{"t":13618,"text":"criteria. So, I think we're the ask of standing to the criteria is a little little vague. Um, I have a couple of comments that I would just put here as"},{"t":13626,"text":"as as some guidelines for this. In my my opinion, I think uh a couple of things."},{"t":13630,"text":"One, I do think slip roads have to be very careful or slip lanes. I I do think that's a any area that gives that blocks"},{"t":13638,"text":"the view. And I think if we're if we're going to allow 48 inches and that's that's a much higher level that that might create some concerns there. I just"},{"t":13646,"text":"I just want to make sure that I I just I think we treat that with with with caution. Um and the only other one on this one that that kind of caught me was"},{"t":13654,"text":"in the areas where there is a long stretch of of open view from the street having the the the of the sorry of the"},{"t":13661,"text":"ocean unimpeded. There's there's one location here on on Beach Drive that was proposed and that's that's backed by by bushes. It's not blocking the view. I"},{"t":13669,"text":"think there's another stretch on Beach Drive which is much more open to the to the street thing. As I understand that stretch there that's that's sort of on"},{"t":13676,"text":"that thin line of of grass with the with the with the water immediately behind."},{"t":13680,"text":"Anyway, those that's just the only thing that to my mind I think a very exposed to um to wind, but also I think we if I"},{"t":13687,"text":"if I recall the push back we got on um um from the public who treated that area as parks when we had public art. Um I"},{"t":13695,"text":"also sort of recognize that that might be a bit of a a conundrum. That being said, I think that the reason it's selected there is it's not impeding sight lines and so forth. Correct. Yeah."},{"t":13704,"text":"Um so those are my only other thoughts on on terms of other locations. I um uh I know there was one suggestion here"},{"t":13712,"text":"in this list that you know I would consider to be extremely dangerous which is the one where the intersection Newport and Oak Bay Avenue. Um but I would allow that for staff to have a"},{"t":13720,"text":"review of that. um because I remember that was used last time and it created well maybe nobody complained about it. I can you know speak from firsthand experience it created essentially a"},{"t":13729,"text":"blind uh crossing when trying to cross Oak Bay Avenue onto um I guess that's eastbound. Um anyway um"},{"t":13738,"text":"so the motion right now was to send it back for staff to consider the additional recommended spots. Um any other discussion on that"},{"t":13746,"text":"motion? Any other comments in terms of other guidelines or other things that staff might consider?"},{"t":13753,"text":"Okay, I'm uh going to make the motion then to make the motion. I'll move I'll call the question. All those in favor"},{"t":13760,"text":"and those opposed council braith opposed. Can I also just I think appropriate uh given what we heard from staff that we ask that the bylaw be"},{"t":13769,"text":"amended to allow up to 48 inches of height."},{"t":13773,"text":"So can I have a mover and a seconder for that? Moved. Is there a second?"},{"t":13777,"text":"seconded. Uh any other discussion on that? Okay. All in favor? Any opposed?"},{"t":13783,"text":"None opposed. Um so that will come back with with consideration of those spaces."},{"t":13788,"text":"Um we move to item 9.4. Uh building planning, building and development fees and charges amendment bylaw. This is a"},{"t":13795,"text":"long list, Mr. Green. Uh I don't want us to go through all of them line by line. Uh if I may hand it over to you."},{"t":13803,"text":"Uh thank you, worship. Uh this report proposes amendments to the district's planning, building and development fees bylaw to align these with recent policy"},{"t":13811,"text":"change recent policy changes including the updated OCP and delegating certain permits to staff and to use this opportunity to review and revise fees"},{"t":13820,"text":"associated with the different types of applications that have not been updated since 2023. Happy to answer any questions that council may have on the proposed changes."},{"t":13830,"text":"Sure. Go ahead councly. Thanks very much Mayor and through you."},{"t":13833,"text":"Um I noticed the removal of the refund provision for unused legal fees. So it's previously if actual legal fe fees costs"},{"t":13841,"text":"were lowered um they would get refunded to the applicant and now that piece is being deleted and I was wondering if you could give me an explanation on that please."},{"t":13850,"text":"[snorts]"},{"t":13851,"text":"Mr. Green, this is one of the last items on that list. Yeah, that's because we generally just charge um the cost of"},{"t":13860,"text":"what the the legal fees that we incur to the applicants. There isn't a refund because we we essentially charge at cost"},{"t":13867,"text":"what our legal fees are to an applicant and so there is no requirement or need for that uh refund."},{"t":13876,"text":"Sorry three. Okay. though I I thought it was that the way I read it and obviously I was incorrect was that um if the legal"},{"t":13883,"text":"costs were lower then um the money would go whatever was overpaid would go back to the applicant but that then what how"},{"t":13892,"text":"I read it was that we weren't giving the money back to the applicant at all but we still are well we're not we only charge an applicant what we incur and so there"},{"t":13901,"text":"isn't really need for that provision because if you know for example if we are drafting if we get legal counsel to"},{"t":13907,"text":"draft a HR and that comes in at $5,000, we would simply send the applicant an invoice for $5,000."},{"t":13915,"text":"Okay. Thank you. Thank you. All right. Smart."},{"t":13920,"text":"Yeah. Thank you. Um through May of staff, um I just had a question about zoning bylaw amendments for minor residential projects. Am I understanding"},{"t":13928,"text":"correctly from the crossouts that like even a minor residential project with a zoning bylaw amendment would be $6,000?"},{"t":13935,"text":"And if if that is the case, can you give an example of a type of proposal that would fall in this category?"},{"t":13943,"text":"Mr. Green, uh thank you for the question. In terms of uh that would fall into the category of $6,000."},{"t":13952,"text":"So that would be any reszoning that is not essentially a text amendment to that specific zone"},{"t":13962,"text":"regardless of the number of units being created."},{"t":13966,"text":"And so the other charge within that section. So if somebody wishes to do a text amendments for generally those are"},{"t":13973,"text":"in relation to F. uh if they wish to increase the F of an R zone or even an"},{"t":13980,"text":"RM zone or um they would be charged 3,500 however if they are changing from one"},{"t":13989,"text":"zone to another zone or uh uh yeah essentially that would where where"},{"t":13995,"text":"somebody is reszoning from R4 to R5 they would be charged 6,000. Mr. Smart."},{"t":14002,"text":"Oh thank you. I did have a few more um questions. Um my next question was with regards to the um property file review."},{"t":14011,"text":"What triggers a fee for a property file review? Is that just anybody coming up to the counter to ask questions or is it something more specific?"},{"t":14021,"text":"Yeah, property file review. So we sometimes ask um let me just double check in terms of making sure that uh"},{"t":14039,"text":"it would be where generally where that we are being asked to do a more comprehensive review that couldn't be just dealt with at the front counter."},{"t":14048,"text":"And so obviously people do come into the front counter with their agent authorization form or realities asking questions about a specific issue and so"},{"t":14056,"text":"it does you know I guess we have got some discretion depending on the amount of time that we think that will take and so it's in there just in case that we"},{"t":14064,"text":"have a a large inquiry that we are able to charge some a fee to recover some of the costs associated with that detailed review."},{"t":14076,"text":"Go ahead, Councelor Smart."},{"t":14077,"text":"Uh, thank you. Um, my last question for you, Mayor, just with regards to the heritage designation um fee. Uh, if it was the will of council to want to"},{"t":14086,"text":"reduce that fee in alignment with the community amenity that we would receive for um having a heritage building"},{"t":14095,"text":"designated. Is that something that council um uh could make a motion for today or would that conflict with another existing policy about recouping fees for time spent?"},{"t":14107,"text":"Mr. Green."},{"t":14109,"text":"No, I think if uh obviously I think last time I think back in 2023 if memory serves me right I think uh council did"},{"t":14116,"text":"refer back in 2023 the fees that we were proposing to the heritage commission and as a result of that process they they"},{"t":14124,"text":"came back and council then chose to lower the fees associated with heritage related applications as a way of trying"},{"t":14131,"text":"to uh yeah incentivize those applications. Anything else? Counc."},{"t":14139,"text":"Um, no, that's fine. I would be interested to make a a motion when the time is right with regards to the heritage destination fee."},{"t":14146,"text":"Sure. I just have two quick questions for staff just in the time. Just can you explain um how are the appropriate recovery rates determined? Is it just a"},{"t":14155,"text":"an estimate of the average time of an application? Mr. Mr. Green."},{"t":14160,"text":"Yeah, generally speaking, that is correct. Acknowledging that every application is is different and some take less and some some take more. But"},{"t":14168,"text":"overall we tried we have generally done a bit of an estimate of what we think the costs involve in relation to the different types of applications. Some applications uh we need to send"},{"t":14177,"text":"notification letters. We need to put two in the paper and so some of the costs also reflect some of the external costs that we are associated with these type"},{"t":14185,"text":"of applications as well as the actual processing costs by staff. But it is a general night because you know some files are dealt with by a planner, some"},{"t":14193,"text":"files are dealt with by myself and so we do have different error rates but generally speaking we try to estimate what the number of errors are for each type of application."},{"t":14202,"text":"Thank you. Uh just curious I know that we did uh direct lower fees for heritage. Uh are there any other fees"},{"t":14210,"text":"that are below the the cost of of processing uh in our list that you're aware of? Yeah, I think the only other one will be environmental development"},{"t":14218,"text":"permits where we generally try to encourage people to get environmental development permits. And so I think that is still slightly lower cost than say a"},{"t":14227,"text":"different type of development permit even though the costs are probably the same but we do have a slightly lower amount to encourage environmental development permits to be obtained."},{"t":14235,"text":"Great. And the last question I have is do we do any comparisons of our costs to other jurisdictions in the region? just I know we often will get you know if"},{"t":14244,"text":"they're wildly different then people will often flag them. So just curious if we do any sort of sanity check on that as well or we just look at our costs a little bit but it's hard to compare"},{"t":14253,"text":"you know we have we have very different than Sanage and Victoria in terms of the departments that applications get referred to probably you know more"},{"t":14261,"text":"departments get review applications at the city compared to ourselves and they all sort of have different processing costs associated with um for example"},{"t":14270,"text":"pre-lication discussions or uh yeah it's very hard to compare rapples and apple because they have very different processes. is for those types of applications."},{"t":14279,"text":"Okay. Thank you. I'm going to now at this point go to the public if there's any comments. This is on item 9.4 for the building planning and development fees and charges amendment bylaw."},{"t":14288,"text":"Anybody in the room wishing to speak to us on this online?"},{"t":14296,"text":"I'm not seeing any. So with that, come back to this table. Get move first and second reading."},{"t":14303,"text":"Go ahead, councelor Smart."},{"t":14305,"text":"Um, if I wish to propose a change, would you like that after first or second reading?"},{"t":14311,"text":"Generally, we would do first and second reading and amend amend the Okay, thanks."},{"t":14315,"text":"So, I'll move that the planning, building, and development fees and charges bylaw number 48452023 amendment bylaw number 49526 be read a first and second time."},{"t":14326,"text":"Movement seconded. This is the time for debate and I think councelor Smart uh you wish you indicated you wish [clears throat] to make an amendment."},{"t":14334,"text":"Uh, yeah. I wish to make an amendment to reduce the heritage um designation um or removal fee um from $1,500 to $500."},{"t":14350,"text":"My apologies for interrupting. If we could have first and second reading read and once we get through there we can do amendments. Okay."},{"t":14358,"text":"They're more appropriately done."},{"t":14359,"text":"So you want you want us to following second reading. Yes."},{"t":14361,"text":"So conclude second reading. include second reading and then proceed with amendments."},{"t":14366,"text":"Okay. Procedurally. Thank you, Miss Anderson. Uh so we have first and second reading on the books. All those in"},{"t":14372,"text":"favor? Any opposed? None opposed. The council councelor Smart."},{"t":14378,"text":"Uh thank you. I'd like to move an amendment that the heritage designation or removal fee of $1,500 be reduced to $500."},{"t":14388,"text":"Is there a seconder?"},{"t":14393,"text":"Not seeing a seconder. Okay. So we are second reading or uh so with that uh that I'll move that bu planning"},{"t":14401,"text":"building and development fees and charges to bylaw number 48452023 amendment bylaw number 49522026 be read a third time"},{"t":14408,"text":"and seconded there debate on third reading but seeing none. All those in favor? Any oppose? Not opposed that"},{"t":14416,"text":"carries. Uh and then so it'll come back for adoption at a future meeting. We are now on to 9.5 amendments to elections"},{"t":14423,"text":"and voting bylaw 2025. Miss Anderson, you're the last item on our agenda."},{"t":14428,"text":"Yeah. Thank you, mayor. And I'm aware of the we have six minutes left. So I will quickly um introduce this item. Before you is an amendment bylaw um in response"},{"t":14438,"text":"to provincial bill 13 miscellaneous amendments passed last year which amends a number of provincial statutes including the local government act. In"},{"t":14445,"text":"addition, we are proposing just house some housekeeping amendments and one amendment that was not housekeeping which is numbered as 10.8 mail ballots."},{"t":14453,"text":"This provision would allow the chief election officer the discretion to issue a mail ballot after the deadline for requesting a mail ballot under extenduating circumstances such as"},{"t":14462,"text":"hospitalization. The intent is to enable eligible electors to exercise their right to vote and this provision [clears throat] reduces any potential"},{"t":14470,"text":"barriers that could occur after the deadline for request. Thank you for that. Any quick questions?"},{"t":14478,"text":"Otherwise, I'm going to go to the public."},{"t":14481,"text":"Anybody from the public wish to talk to us about item 9.5, amendments to the elections and voting bylaw?"},{"t":14488,"text":"Anybody online?"},{"t":14491,"text":"Seeing no hands raised, I'm going to come back to this table. I'll move that the elections and voting bylaw number 428420"},{"t":14498,"text":"2005 amendment bylaw number 49652 20226 be read a first and second time moved and seconded any discussion. Thank you"},{"t":14507,"text":"Miss Anderson for doing this work making us in bring us into alignment for the election. Uh all those in favor any opposed? None opposed"},{"t":14514,"text":"and I'll move that elections and voting bylaw number 4284 2005 amendment bylaw number 49652026 be read a third time."},{"t":14523,"text":"Seconded. Thank you. All those in favor?"},{"t":14525,"text":"Any opposed? None opposed. I'll come back for adoption at a future meeting."},{"t":14528,"text":"Any new business? Notice a motion or adjournment? Hey, an adjournment. Moved and seconded."},{"t":14535,"text":"All those in favor? Any opposed? None opposed? That carries. Thank you everyone."},{"t":14540,"text":"And uh we'll see you in two weeks. But probably all of you at the cameas day as well on Sunday when you have the thingy, right?"}],"words":41135,"fetchedAt":"2026-10-03T01:24:05.085Z"}